Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: billy on October 20, 2007, 04:06:26 pm
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someone on this forum said that Rollie might be making/ licensing an Hy6 camera body that will work with Phase Backs, something about an announcement at a trade show in NY last week. Anymore info on that? I have a P21/Contax and would love to switch over camera bodies once that camera is available to take advantage of the high flash sync shutter speeds.
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I suggest you do a search on Hy6 in this forum. It is being offered by three companies, Sinar, Rollei (actually Franke & Heidecke, but that 's another story), and Leaf (as the AFi). Pretty much the same camera, take your pick.
There is a wealth of information on this forum about this camera, including some pricing in various regions of the world.
-Brad
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thanks but ONLY interested in Rollei/phase combo and whatever new info came out this week
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I have a P21/Contax and would love to switch over camera bodies once that camera is available to take advantage of the high flash sync shutter speeds.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147480\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
In case this happen some day, you'll need to change your P21 too, as PhaseOne doesn't offer adapter plates.
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Since I contributed a small bit to that rumor, I suppose I should summarize what I know about the past week. A certain poster on this forum posted what sounded like first-hand information that "the companies" (his plural) were testing a Phase/Rollei combination, and that it would be announced at PhotoPlus. He then came back and said that he couldn't say any more. I made the observation that "companies," plural, implied that Rollei/F&H must be actively involved in this effort.
Upon further questioning of the original poster of the information, it turned out that he "felt" that what he said was what was happening; it appears that he doesn't actually have any hard information about what he posted. The purported announcement at PhotoPlus never happened.
In summary, it appears that the rumor about a Phase/Rollei deal was exactly that--a rumor--and at this point it appears that said rumor had no basis in fact.
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You know, I heard the same rumour from the Rollie rep. That something would be happening at the show. That the Hy6 would be working with Phase One backs. I think some of the rumours were coming from dealers and company reps. I wouldn't blame someone on this forum for just repeating them.
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You know, I heard the same rumour from the Rollie rep. That something would be happening at the show. That the Hy6 would be working with Phase One backs. I think some of the rumours were coming from dealers and company reps. I wouldn't blame someone on this forum for just repeating them.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147548\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
This game has been played since Photokina one year ago. At that point too I was told by several parties that negotiations were taking place.
Edmund
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so it seems that everybody is having his bit of responsibility in this(ese) rumor(s) spreading around. And I gues this "game" will be played even longer, even though it has been proven by hard facts that one should not and never post information without strong proves, written documents, comanies annoucements, etc ...
Thierry
This game has been played since Photokina one year ago. At that point too I was told by several parties that negotiations were taking place.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147556\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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so it seems that everybody is having his bit of responsibility in this(ese) rumor(s) spreading around. And I gues this "game" will be played even longer, even though it has been proven by hard facts that one should not and never post information without strong proves, written documents, comanies annoucements, etc ...
Thierry
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=147573\")
Thierry, as for strong proofs, written documents, and company's announcements, I would like to remind you that ownership of a little company called Sinar was not at all clear back at the time of Photokina, in spite of "official" press releases indicating that it was being bought by Leica ....
[a href=\"http://news.softpedia.com/news/Leica-AG-Acquires-51-of-Sinar-AG-36610.shtml]http://news.softpedia.com/news/Leica-AG-Ac...-AG-36610.shtml[/url]
It seems this was reversed
Edmund
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Having attended PhotoExpo this week and slogged through the comntinued murk of information coming directly from these companies, my conclusion at this point is this -
Will a Phase One product ever work with a Rollei Hy6? Possibly. But if it does, a connecting plate will have to be developed. More importantly, this would only be a mechanical connection. There would be no electronic communication whatsoever, the product would work very much like putting a Phase on a 500CM.
This is fine, would it happen, but it would involve flash sync cabling, no communication or control from the software, no advanced electronic features now or in the future as they are further developed through free firmware upgrades to Sinar/Leaf solutions (like RGB-based auto white balance, etc).
The most important fact to bear in mind is that Jenoptik owns this project. Knowing that tells you almost everything you need to know. They own all of the intellectual property rights, and therefore the Rollei version of the Hy6 will always (at this point, anyway) be a film camera solution that - at best - might be mechanically mated to a digital back. There is no benefit to Jenoptik licensing Phase One (or Hasselblad for that matter). They have a partner in Leaf, which helped get the manufacturing numbers up to where they need to be. This is a product that has been developed to speed towards an advanced integrated solution, and the point of that solution is primarily to drive Sinar digital camera sales.
The fact that Phase One or Hasselblad being licensed for electronic communication with a Hy6 would likely provide higher sales of the Hy6 camera and lenses is meaningless. The fraction of profit derived from those sales compared to digital sales is tiny and therefore does not provide a motivating factor for camera/lens sales itself. It's also important to note that the CEO of Sinar is also responsible for a division of Jenoptik itself. So the Hy6 is very much a solution that inheritantly needs to benefit Jenoptik, start to finish.
This is not Jenoptik's fault, they are not being greedy, selfish or anything of the sort. They have a digital camera product now, and they intend to sell it. The fact that Phase One currently does not is of no concern to them. Nor should it be. All of these digital back companies are now on their own. There are currently no major medium format film-only based camera companies left on the market (except Rollei). The present and future of medium format digital is in advanced integrated digital cameras. It is up to each individual company to get up to speed with a solution or ultimately say goodbye.
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
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Dear Edmund,
we are speaking here about rumors, right. At the time of Photokina, the "Leica" story was not a rumor, but annouced OFFICIALLY to the whole press, the monday morning the day before the opening of the exhibition. It was pretty clear, IMO.
This was valid until the deal was cancelled (for whatever reason, that is not the point), some time in november ( 1 1/2 months after Photokina) and annouced officially in a press release by Jenoptik.
I simply cannot understand why you claim this having been a rumor here, a misinformation, any "non-dit" or lacking documents: all was there to prove things.
Best regards,
Thierry
Thierry, as for strong proofs, written documents, and company's announcements, I would like to remind you that ownership of a little company called Sinar was not at all clear back at the time of Photokina, in spite of "official" press releases indicating that it was being bought by Leica ....
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Leica-AG-Ac...-AG-36610.shtml (http://news.softpedia.com/news/Leica-AG-Acquires-51-of-Sinar-AG-36610.shtml)
It seems this was reversed
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147587\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Dear Edmund,
This was valid until the deal was cancelled (for whatever reason, that is not the point), some time in november ( 1 1/2 months after Photokina) and annouced officially in a press release by Jenoptik.
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147610\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
And it was precisely during that period before the deal was cancelled, when the Hy6 was being launched at Photokina, that various well-informed sources told me the Phase connection was being discussed and would be announced.
Edmund
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Steve, the way you word it is not exactly correct. The Rolleiflex version (note: not Rollei version) of the Hy6 will be fully compatible with both the Sinar and Leaf backs, as it contains the same firmware and electronic contacts. F&H will not be allowed to sell it with another digital back, if that is what you mean.
As for the discussion with PhaseOne: there have been Jenoptik discussions with them when Sinar was to be sold to Leica. But Phase seems to have played the cards too self-assured. They didn't want to pay the asking price from Jenoptik and when the Sinar sale bounced the possible deal with Phase was off (for obvious reasons). Phase has also been too late when the Contax platform went the way of the Dodo and they were interested in taking it over. I am getting the feeling that Phase is losing out here and there. I sure hope they will find a way to get back on track, but the current signs are not very reassuring.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147633\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
In every situation, from the contax discussion to the most recent, what Phase lacks is capital. The Contax deal died, as I understand it, because Phase was not willing or able to pay Kyocera for their contax equipment line (the machinery)
Phase has the best MFDB as far as I can see and can stay in the forefront, but not by much. They don't need to buy something-they can't afford it, either from a capital or, it seems from management intestinal fortitude point of view. I have seen it so often in my 45+ years of consulting; best products don't necessarily win. You need capital.
Someone needs to BUY PHASE and make something great of it, not just something good.
regards
Victor
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Steve, the way you word it is not exactly correct. The Rolleiflex version (note: not Rollei version) of the Hy6 will be fully compatible with both the Sinar and Leaf backs, as it contains the same firmware and electronic contacts. F&H will not be allowed to sell it with another digital back, if that is what you mean.
Ah, EDP, the mysterious one with the insider information.
Yes, that is how I mean it. Even if Phase One or KaptureGroup machined a plate for the Hy6, it would not enable electronic communication, even if by design because of the reason you clarified for me. At least that is my belief.
As for the discussion with PhaseOne: there have been Jenoptik discussions with them when Sinar was to be sold to Leica. But Phase seems to have played the cards too self-assured. They didn't want to pay the asking price from Jenoptik and when the Sinar sale bounced the possible deal with Phase was off (for obvious reasons). Phase has also been too late when the Contax platform went the way of the Dodo and they were interested in taking it over. I am getting the feeling that Phase is losing out here and there. I sure hope they will find a way to get back on track, but the current signs are not very reassuring.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147633\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes, I believe Jenoptik realized they needed the second partner - at least for now - to get numbers up. I have no information on the negotation process, only the end results. And it is with those results that I see Phase One as no longer needed or desired by Jenotpik. Unless the arrangement with Leaf at some point falls through for some reason and they still feel they need a partner, then I can see those negotiations perhaps opening up again. But otherwise not.
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
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The most important fact to bear in mind is that Jenoptik owns this project. Knowing that tells you almost everything you need to know. They own all of the intellectual property rights, and therefore the Rollei version of the Hy6 will always (at this point, anyway) be a film camera solution that - at best - might be mechanically mated to a digital back.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147594\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well... "B" doesn't really follow from "A" here. It depends on what the alleged "intellectual property" consists of. If there are patents involved that cover a major portion of the interface, then there might indeed be a problem. "Trade secrets" and copyrights, however, are essentially irrelevant once the product is in the marketplace. The interface can be reverse-engineered, and anything learned by doing so is no longer a trade secret. And while the firmware in the camera is certainly covered by copyright, you can't copyright the interface.
And even in the case of patents, there may well be ways to accomplish what needs to be done that don't infringe on any patents that may be involved.
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Well... "B" doesn't really follow from "A" here. It depends on what the alleged "intellectual property" consists of. If there are patents involved that cover a major portion of the interface, then there might indeed be a problem. "Trade secrets" and copyrights, however, are essentially irrelevant once the product is in the marketplace. The interface can be reverse-engineered, and anything learned by doing so is no longer a trade secret. And while the firmware in the camera is certainly covered by copyright, you can't copyright the interface.
And even in the case of patents, there may well be ways to accomplish what needs to be done that don't infringe on any patents that may be involved.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147694\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
This all may well be true. But from what I am told, there are licensing issues at play here regardless of reverse engineering. If all that was required was reverse engineering and then it's a free for all, why hasn't anyone reverese engineered a product for the H3D? I think there's more to it than that.
And even if that was the case, reverse engineering electronically coupled adapters is a serious R&D project, likely taking years and lots and lots of money.
Which is why it seems to me any Phase One/Hy6 coupling will likely be mechanical one. I could certainly be wrong - this is just my impression from what I know and who I have spoken with.
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
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And even if that was the case, reverse engineering electronically coupled adapters is a serious R&D project, likely taking years and lots and lots of money.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147697\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hmmm... I got to disagree with you here, I think. Though I have never closely examined the interface of these cameras I have been pretty closely involved in projects like this in the past.
To begin with there are not that many contact points and not that many forms of communication with the camera (most of the types of communication are known as well) so the amount of work is probably not that extensive. Talking about weeks/months of research and a limited team necessary.
I don't know why there is no back yet for the H3 other than Hasselblad. Could be because there was the option of avoiding having to reverse engineer by using the H2. I wonder whether this changes with the H2F?
Unless the communication is encrypted it should be a matter of weeks/months to find out how to communicate with the body. When it is encrypted (remember Nikon D2x' white balance information?) the situation becomes different (I see no real reason to do this). Still not undoable, your team just got bigger by adding cryptographers and your timespan will be much longer (unless you have a lot of dumb luck), however I am not sure what the legal ramifications would be cracking into the system in that case.
It seems much more likely for Phase to reverse engineer the H3 instead of the Hy6 since Phase was involved in the H project and probably has more knowledge about the H communication to begin with.
Naturally all of this is just MHO and purely based on what I know of electronically communicating systems.
The other difficulty of reverse engineering is that sometimes (on purpose or not) the communication protocols get changed with new firmware. Eventually you end up with a form of playing catch-up.
It could also be that Phase is doing something totally different and will surprise us in the near future. I somehow don't believe they are leaning back and letting the world go by them.
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This all may well be true. But from what I am told, there are licensing issues at play here regardless of reverse engineering. If all that was required was reverse engineering and then it's a free for all, why hasn't anyone reverese engineered a product for the H3D? I think there's more to it than that.
And even if that was the case, reverse engineering electronically coupled adapters is a serious R&D project, likely taking years and lots and lots of money.
Which is why it seems to me any Phase One/Hy6 coupling will likely be mechanical one. I could certainly be wrong - this is just my impression from what I know and who I have spoken with.
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147697\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Steve, I know that neither one of us is a lawyer. But, I've spent a lot of time and money on lawyers specializing in intellectural property, and have been involved in a number of reverse-engineering projects. And I'm not aware of anything except an actual patent that can block reverse engineering. You can't copyright ideas or information, only a particular expression of an idea. And trade secrets are protected only by their secrecy--if someone else figures it out, then they know the secret, too. (In fact, that's a major problem with trade secrets--You can attempt to protect something by keeping it a trade secret, but there's always the risk that someone else might come up with the same idea and then patent it, in which case they are now the owner of that technology.)
Regarding your question of why nobody has reverse-engineered the H3D, the more interesting question is why IBM never sued Compaq or Phoenix Techonolgies for reverse-engineering the BIOS of the IBM PC. The answer is that they dearly wanted to, but couldn't, for the reasons I listed above.
You say that there are "licensing issues at play here"; I would love to know under what legal theory these issues are purported to exist. As I've said several times now, other than patents, nothing else is really an issue for reverse engineering.
And even if that was the case, reverse engineering electronically coupled adapters is a serious R&D project, likely taking years and lots and lots of money.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147697\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Not really. Unless the interface is encrypted, I expect I could reverse engineer it in 2-3 months, for $2-300,000.
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Steve, I know that neither one of us is a lawyer. But, I've spent a lot of time and money on lawyers specializing in intellectural property, and have been involved in a number of reverse-engineering projects. And I'm not aware of anything except an actual patent that can block reverse engineering. You can't copyright ideas or information, only a particular expression of an idea. And trade secrets are protected only by their secrecy--if someone else figures it out, then they know the secret, too. (In fact, that's a major problem with trade secrets--You can attempt to protect something by keeping it a trade secret, but there's always the risk that someone else might come up with the same idea and then patent it, in which case they are now the owner of that technology.)
Regarding your question of why nobody has reverse-engineered the H3D, the more interesting question is why IBM never sued Compaq or Phoenix Techonolgies for reverse-engineering the BIOS of the IBM PC. The answer is that they dearly wanted to, but couldn't, for the reasons I listed above.
You say that there are "licensing issues at play here"; I would love to know under what legal theory these issues are purported to exist. As I've said several times now, other than patents, nothing else is really an issue for reverse engineering.
Not really. Unless the interface is encrypted, I expect I could reverse engineer it in 2-3 months, for $2-300,000.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147761\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Steve:
You're right, lawyer I am not. And what I know of this particular situation is certainly sketchy in terms of legality, licensing, intellectual property rights, etc. I'm guessing to some degree and filling in blanks to another. As we all are seeing, getting to the bottom line fact of the matter is difficult at best.
For whatever reasons, what has been intended to be made clear to me from Sinar themselves is that neither Hasselblad nor Phase One can function electronically with the Hy6. Only Leaf and Sinar. The reasons for why has been worded a number of different ways to me, none of which are clear, and none of which I have - as has been established - an experienced handle on (licensing, intellectual property, reverse engineering, etc).
So, this seems to be real - at least for the present - why it is, I am not sure. But I have also the understanding that there were "licensing" issues or whatever term or framing it would fall under with Hasselblad and the H1 project. And that, from my understanding, no medium format back was ever "licensed", or whatever for the H2, only the H1. With the H2, an agreement was never completed (at least with Phase One). The fact you can use Phase One, Leaf, Sinar on H2 is because it is really no different with those backs operationally than with H1 cameras. But it's evidence that something more than reverse engineering is required.
And it does bring up the question of why Leaf or Phase would not/have not "reverse engineered" their product to go on an H3, try to et the HCD28mm to work, etc. I have a definite sense their is more at work here than what we're seeing.
Regardless, all this could change in the blink of an eye. Next week we could see the Phase One PHy6 or the Hasselblad HHy6.
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
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again, the "various well-informed sources"! I can't beleive it. When then will you stop to believe well-informed sources?. And even if that was true, what would have been wrong to discuss with Phase???
Fact is that myself and here I was asked in January about the adaption of backs other then Sinar and Leaf backs, if not in December when I joined LL. And since then I am saying, repeting and writing the same here. And I am still saying the same about PO. I do remember you that I put my signature with my name and the company I am working for under my posts.
So Edmund, please do not try to involve Jenoptik or Sinar in rumours about PO, this is simply misleading.
Thanks for your understanding,
Thierry
And it was precisely during that period before the deal was cancelled, when the Hy6 was being launched at Photokina, that various well-informed sources told me the Phase connection was being discussed and would be announced.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147629\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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again, the "various well-informed sources"! I can't beleive it. When then will you stop to believe well-informed sources?. And even if that was true, what would have been wrong to discuss with Phase???
Fact is that myself and here I was asked in January about the adaption of backs other then Sinar and Leaf backs, if not in December when I joined LL. And since then I am saying, repeting and writing the same here. And I am still saying the same about PO. I do remember you that I put my signature with my name and the company I am working for under my posts.
So Edmund, please do not try to involve Jenoptik or Sinar in rumours about PO, this is simply misleading.
Thanks for your understanding,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147833\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Dear Thierry,
We are talking about old events here, which happened one year ago. I have no idea what is happening now.
However, regarding my reports of those old events, when someone who happens to be a CEO of a company involved in some topic talks to me off the record about that topic, I act professionally as a journalist and call him a well-informed source because what he is saying is not exactly what one calls a rumor, and as a CEO that person is entitled to set his own rules about how he talks.
Apart from that if you want to continue calling me a liar please go ahead if it makes you happy - I don't get offended that easily, I just find it's getting boring
Edmund
PS. Thierry, instead of wasting effort on figuring out whether I'm a decent journalist, why not go tell your company I would like to mount my Phase back on the Hy6 and am ready to buy such a Hy6 ? That seems a more constructive and lucrative use of your time. Surely representatives of a company are allowed to tell their company what products clients would wish to buy ?
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Take this for what it is. Don't freak out like usual Thierry. http://forum.phaseone.com/viewtopic.php?t=4172 (http://forum.phaseone.com/viewtopic.php?t=4172)
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Take this for what it is. Don't freak out like usual Thierry. http://forum.phaseone.com/viewtopic.php?t=4172 (http://forum.phaseone.com/viewtopic.php?t=4172)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147933\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
What is it?
Cheers,
J
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There is zero new information in that thread.
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Its why I said take it for what it is, there is a thousand ways to interpret that little amount of information. I took it as- we are still having problems with the hy6 compatibility, but it you wait long enough we will have a solution. Also apologizing for the cryptic-ness at the end suggests he is not telling us something.
be what it be.
"If I where you I would hold my horses for a while, it is a new platform and might have some quirks that has to be solve. Not uncommon with any new camera platform. Currently we do not have a Hy6 solution but that does not necessarily mean that there will never be one........"
What he is saying is: don't buy a Hy6, until it has proven to be a solid platform, so much so that we are forced to make a PhaseOne solution for it. If that isn't a fine specimen of bad-mouthing a new product, I wouldn't know what else it is.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147961\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Ok, I will play. I was at the photo show this weekend, in fact I got a nice shinny phase one pen. When I was at the booth I heard from a dealer that Phase might introduce something very interesting this year. This was in regards to my comment about hasselblad canning the H2. So who knows what will happen.
Ken
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Dear Edmund,
I will NOT let you say this: this is simply over the board!
1. I have never said that you are a liar! WHAT I said was that Sinar's and Jenoptik's communication shortly before, during and after Photokina was clear, concerning the Leica deal.
----> YOU suggested it was not clear, that we had spread rumors and misinformation
I am sorry, I cannot let this stand as such. The proves and company statement and press releases are there to confirm what I say, and they have been issued in time.
2. You speak about "well-informed" sources without naming them, telling you that there are discussions going on with PO. In your initial post your speak about "various" sources. Now all of a sudden it is ONE single source. How things change from one post to another!
But again: this is NOT the point. What the hell is the problem IF there WERE discussions going on with PO at the time of Photokina??? WHY do you even mention this? Is it a crime, if such is the case?
Did you report them at this time? Probably, if my remembrance is right. What have you been answered when you asked the question about an adapter for PO? Dig back and read my answers, please.
FACT is: I have informed since very long (January '07), that there will be NO attachment/adapter from Sinar (understand Jenoptik), when asked. That must be the result of these discussions, don't you think so? And as such it has been informed by Sinar (Jenoptik), since under my name stands "Sinar AG Switzerland".
Not only has it been informed by myself on LL, but also on our homepage during the "Ask your questions about the Hy6" tread.
And ANY Sinar employee you would have asked would have told you the very same answer: that PO was not part of the project and as such that there will be no adapter from us for the attachment of their backs (so for Hasselblad).
Again, you suggest that it is (was) Sinar/Jenoptik having created rumors and not having cleared them: I simply cannot let you say this.
I simply cannot understand what you are trying to say but to put purposely dirt on the comapny names.
3. I wish also to clear "if you want to continue calling me a liar"
You purposely distort what I am writing. WHERE did I write this?
I simply and only suggested to avoid speaking about/believing "well-informed" sources. Some recent events have shown where it leads when not doing so.
I feel sorry, but I did not know that you were a journalist, and I actually don't really know what you are excatly, since you never described yourself. I would have it hard to discredit you as a journalist when not knowing you are one.
4. Your P.S.
I must be dreaming! You have the courage to turn around the subject and ask this question again? Do you actually read what has been communicated?
I feel sorry Edmund, you have no right to bash on me or on Sinar the way you are doing it. And I will be here each and any time to correct your non-sense.
Best regards,
Thierry
Dear Thierry,
We are talking about old events here, which happened one year ago. I have no idea what is happening now.
However, regarding my reports of those old events, when someone who happens to be a CEO of a company involved in some topic talks to me off the record about that topic, I act professionally as a journalist and call him a well-informed source because what he is saying is not exactly what one calls a rumor, and as a CEO that person is entitled to set his own rules about how he talks.
Apart from that if you want to continue calling me a liar please go ahead if it makes you happy - I don't get offended that easily, I just find it's getting boring
Edmund
PS. Thierry, instead of wasting effort on figuring out whether I'm a decent journalist, why not go tell your company I would like to mount my Phase back on the Hy6 and am ready to buy such a Hy6 ? That seems a more constructive and lucrative use of your time. Surely representatives of a company are allowed to tell their company what products clients would wish to buy ?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147924\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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freak-out: an outburst of emotion(s) or wild behavior/a drug-induced bout of hallucination or paranoia.
If speaking out and correcting misleading information and standing here to give the right one is an outburst of emotions or a wild behavior, then you are right.
But I can assure you that I am drug-free and without any hallucination nor paranoia!
Be re-assured that I will stand here each time and when I feel it necessary to burst out my emotion and show my wild behavior to correct and/or inform.
Best regards,
Thierry
Take this for what it is. Don't freak out like usual Thierry. http://forum.phaseone.com/viewtopic.php?t=4172 (http://forum.phaseone.com/viewtopic.php?t=4172)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147933\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Dear Edmund,
4. Your P.S.
I must be dreaming! You have the courage to turn around the subject and ask this question again? Do you actually read what has been communicated?
I feel sorry Edmund, you have no right to bash on me or on Sinar the way you are doing it. And I will be here each and any time to correct your non-sense.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=148019\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thierry, let's forget this topic, since it makes both of us unhappy, and is of no special importance in the end.
I have no intention of bashing Sinar, a very respected company, that has long been known for some of the world's highest quality view cameras and is now marketing a brand new MF camera design.
Edmund
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Thanks Edmund,
It was my "wild behavior" and "outburst of emotions"!
Thierry
Thierry, let's forget this topic, since it makes both of us unhappy. I have no intention of bashing Sinar, a very respected company, that has long been known for some of the world's highest quality view cameras and is now marketing a brand new MF camera design.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=148023\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thanks Edmund,
It was my "wild behavior" and "outburst of emotions"!
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=148024\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Mutual apologies accepted, then, I guess !
I envy the good climate in your part of the world at this time of year!
Edmund
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Yes!
I guess you mean th "cool" season in Thailand?! Well, it is kind of better, if you know that instead of 35-40°C it comes down to 30-35°C. Still, I am struggling hard to cope with it!
Best regards,
thierry
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I would think that Phase and Mamiya would be taking a long look at each other. The Mamiya back is pretty far behind the competition -- though, of course, they could be innovating like crazy behind the scenes. But a deal with Phase, for a back that many people consider the best, and that works with the current and future 645 and even RZs...that would be a DEAL. Enopugh of a deal that it might put the Hasselblad and the Sinar in some trouble...
JC
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I would think that Phase and Mamiya would be taking a long look at each other. The Mamiya back is pretty far behind the competition -- though, of course, they could be innovating like crazy behind the scenes. But a deal with Phase, for a back that many people consider the best, and that works with the current and future 645 and even RZs...that would be a DEAL. Enopugh of a deal that it might put the Hasselblad and the Sinar in some trouble...
JC
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=148030\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Although they might seem like a match, I don't think that Phase One backs offer anything so unique that it would be enough to make people switch to Mamiya 645 with its slow flash sync, no choice of viewfinders, etc. It's a compromised system.
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ok for the low sync speed but I am not sure it's that much needed. I know you use high speed sync.
But for landscape, archi, interiors, studio is could be not that important.
Sport and fashion remains.
Usually sport doesn't fit with MF.
I could have missed a lot of other way of interest for high sync.
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ok for the low sync speed but I am not sure it's that much needed. I know you use high speed sync.
But for landscape, archi, interiors, studio is could be not that important.
Sport and fashion remains.
Usually sport doesn't fit with MF.
I could have missed a lot of other way of interest for high sync.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=148038\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Is/was not the biggest use of MF wedding photography - love it or hate it !
Now you have a one off timed event in the middle of the day and no conrtol over the ambient light and little control over the location
Your 'models' always wear a challengin combination of outfits a dark suit and a white dress - that you MUST NOT blow out
Your models also dont really have thier mind on thier moddelling assignment so tend to want to do thier poses fast and often they have been drinking too
If ever there was a synch speed requirement I have just described it
Aditionally most likely you need to do a really big group shot - maybe in an en closed space - and do it fast
I'd say 75% of pros who dont major on weddings usually do a few becuase they cant resist $4000 for a days work (often to put in a pot that fincances exotic gear like MFDBs)
SO id say 80% of the market requires the ability to do weddings (or coprorate events in similar situations)
Mamiya cant handle weddings - no synch
HY6 cant handle weddings - no wide for that group shot - and it is that group shot that you will sell a load of big enlargements of
Synch speed reduces the weight/cost of flashes you must carry too
So you ask why did maiya do OK in the past - easy - you used 25ISO when the sun was shining - but that is not an option on DBs - its not just about fast shutters - its about killing the ambient
IMO synch speed is critical to the success of any camera system and DB maker who interfaces with it
S
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don't bring me in any kind of "love it or hate it"
I said I could have missed a lot of field of high sync. use
Is/was not the biggest use of MF wedding photography - love it or hate it !
Now you have a one off timed event in the middle of the day and no conrtol over the ambient light and little control over the location
Your 'models' always wear a challengin combination of outfits a dark suit and a white dress - that you MUST NOT blow out
Your models also dont really have thier mind on thier moddelling assignment so tend to want to do thier poses fast
If ever there was a synch speed requirement I have just described it
Aditionally most likely you need to do a really big group shot - maybe in an en closed space - and do it fast
I'd say 75% of pros who dont major on weddings usually do a few becuase they cant resist $4000 for a days work
SO id say 80% of the market requires the ability to do weddings (or coprorate events in similar situations)
Mamiya cant handle weddings - no synch
HY6 cant handle weddings - no wide for that group shot - and it is that group shot that you will sell a load of big enlargements of
Synch speed reduces the weight/cost of flashes you must carry too
So you ask why did maiya do OK in the past - easy - you used 25ISO when the sun was shining - but that is not an option on DBs - its not just about fast shutters - its about killing the ambient
IMO synch speed is critical to the success of any camera system and DB maker who interfaces with it
S
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=148043\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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don't bring me in any kind of "love it or hate it"
I said I could have missed a lot of field of high sync. use
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=148044\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I am trying to demonstrate that jobbing pros the guys known in the UK as 'general practice' photographers - doing weddings, corporate a bit of product etc have to the best of my knowledge always been the bigest market for MF kit
And the 'future of phase' which is the topic - must IMO - if it is to be a bright one - cater for this bunch of shooters and thier requirement to satisfy a multitiude of demanding customers
That doesnt mean there is no 'value' ("love or hate") for other kit, shooting style or photographic process; from holgas and lensbabies through to multishot on a viewcam or 10.8 plates processed in a bath - I love it all and would personally certainly be more likely to want a print for my lounge or foyer of one of your motel photos than a photo of my dog, my boss or my sisters wedding* - but I am a minority in the global marketplace
Im talking about market share = bright future
not criticisining anyones personal kit choice or shooting style
Market share IMO for DB makers, unlike small companies like lensbaby, who are probably a very happy and secure company, is critical because the R+D cost are so high and those costs need to be spread to make them viable
S
*none of those things exist
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HY6 cant handle weddings - no wide for that group shot - and it is that group shot that you will sell a load of big enlargements of
There are two 40mm lenses for the Hy6. Wide enough for most situations and a 35mm lens is on the way. I don't see this as an issue.
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Some drugs might do you well.
freak-out: an outburst of emotion(s) or wild behavior/a drug-induced bout of hallucination or paranoia.
If speaking out and correcting misleading information and standing here to give the right one is an outburst of emotions or a wild behavior, then you are right.
But I can assure you that I am drug-free and without any hallucination nor paranoia!
Be re-assured that I will stand here each time and when I feel it necessary to burst out my emotion and show my wild behavior to correct and/or inform.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=148021\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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what the ....!
I feel well enough without and not really amused by such comments.
I simply wish to be able to clear out misinformation without others turning it into ridiculous behavior.
Thanks for your understanding,
Thierry
Some drugs might do you well.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=148104\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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There are two 40mm lenses for the Hy6. Wide enough for most situations and a 35mm lens is on the way. I don't see this as an issue.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=148095\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Of course horses for courses.
My definition of the 'required' widest lens is this..
You MUST be able go much wider than uncle Bob at the wedding or Roger from IT at the corporate event who has an 18mm on a APS chip ie a kit lens and is shooting those shots over your shoulder
18 * 1.5 = 29mm (35mmFOV)
Admitidly the 35 meets this criterion at about 21mm 35mm equiv
Another way of looking at it is I always had a 20mm on my FM2 since I was 19 and expect to equal that
(I only went for the wider nikons on their tiny chips)
Looking forward to getting back to the simplicity of a 20mm prime on a nikon DSLR
And having bought the 50 for my H1 now I prefer its artistic sence of quality to the HC35 which is now in my 'emergency' bag with my SLRN and 14mm and other Bob beating but ultimately pointless gear
As a pro I must be able to beat uncle Bob
SMM