Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: eronald on October 20, 2007, 06:02:18 am

Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: eronald on October 20, 2007, 06:02:18 am
In Medium Format with AF, there are now the following cameras left in play after Hasselblad announced the cancellation of the H2:
- Contax (inactive, all backs)
- Hasselblad (closed, Hasselblad backs only)
- Mamiya (active, all backs and their own)
- Sinar/Leaf/Rollei (launch stage, own backs only at this point)

The digital back companies are Hasselblad, Phase One, Leaf, and Sinar and Mamiya.

My predictions (not fact, not rumor, just personal analysis):

- Hasselblad revenues are going to continue to grow, and their system will improve markedly as they re-invest into software and firmware.  Hasselblad can now afford to be commercially aggressive and have added resources for software R&D.

- Leaf have a new system, which can generate an upgrade revenue stream, but sales are going to be under pressure from Hasselblad

- Sinar remain a boutique contender but are in a good position to merge with one of the other players due to the Hy6 card. As a preliminary, they could choose to save some money by merging the R&D for their backs with Leaf.

- Mamiya will continue to act as an open platform for the time being, on the strength of the Phase and their own back sales which will be decent due to the price point. Note the accessible pricing of their lenses. It is clear that Mamiya has the ability to develop good products, while manufacturing and distributing at the lowest cost point in the market.

- Phase One are in a tough spot. They may have been a lead contender technically, but the other players now have them in a platform squeeze. A merger with some existing player or entrant seems increasingly likely.

In summary, I'd say the only "sure things" in the MF market are the inevitable growth of an increasingly aggressive Hasselblad, and the survival of Mamiya as the cheapest solution. Sinar, Phase and Leaf are playing musical chairs.
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: Morgan_Moore on October 20, 2007, 06:53:05 am
Indeed SPL have been outwitted by Blad buying imacon IMO

Sinar/jeoptic have the tools in place but I dont understand them

I think it is because I come from a journalism/street background and them from a studio only background

 for me it is a luxury to have more than 2mins setup and 30s with the subject

nowadays clients have D80s and 18-200s and really cant understand why all the bagage - so that ramps up the time pressure

Sinar  have been trying to peddle studio products for use outside in fast moving locations with little apparent sucess for years

First error was the 60th of the M (and two lens sets!) , next error, HY6, would appear to be lack of wide and lack of transparent integration (and three lens sets!)

Fundamentally they failed to comprehend that while you can have different film stocks in your fridge and caouple of differnt $5000 camera systems you are unlikely to have more than one $30000 back or one $25000 system - so it has to do EVERYTHING

S
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: stewarthemley on October 20, 2007, 06:57:55 am
Be interesting if Phase do produce their own (adapted?) camera system, as mentioned elsewhere on LL.
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: Graham Mitchell on October 20, 2007, 07:08:36 am
I'm not sure what the purpose of this thread is, other than to repeat mere conjecture.

Quote
- Sinar/Leaf/Rollei (launch stage, own backs only at this point)

It seems you forgot the Rollei 6008 which is not discontinued yet and which takes Sinar and Hasselblad backs as well as the Rollei P20.

Quote
In summary, I'd say the only "sure things" in the MF market are the inevitable growth of an increasingly aggressive Hasselblad, and the survival of Mamiya as the cheapest solution. Sinar, Phase and Leaf are playing musical chairs.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147350\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Sinar and Leaf both have sizeable parent companies. Mamiya looks weakest of all financially and will be the first to take a hit from the upcoming Canons by offering the least number of advantages. Phase looks most vulnerable.
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: Graham Mitchell on October 20, 2007, 07:12:02 am
Quote
next error, HY6, would appear to be lack of wide and lack of transparent integration (and three lens sets!)

Transparent integration? Three lens sets??
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: eronald on October 20, 2007, 07:26:45 am
As regards the purpose of this thread, nobody compels you to waste time on it.

I don't think the Rollei is significant in the future equation.

Fuji is clearly backing Hasselblad and Hassy is making money.

Mamiya *now* has a positive cash flow, clearly. For the moment they seem to be ticking along nicely. Of course surprises can arise.

Does Kodak really care about Leaf ? Is Kodak still alive indeed ? The fate of a parent company can impact its offspring too ...
 
Edmund

Quote
I'm not sure what the purpose of this thread is, other than to repeat mere conjecture.
It seems you forgot the Rollei 6008 which is not discontinued yet and which takes Sinar and Hasselblad backs as well as the Rollei P20.
Sinar and Leaf both have sizeable parent companies. Mamiya looks weakest of all financially and will be the first to take a hit from the upcoming Canons by offering the least number of advantages. Phase looks most vulnerable.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147359\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: stewarthemley on October 20, 2007, 07:28:36 am
Quote
I'm not sure what the purpose of this thread is, other than to repeat mere conjecture.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147359\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It's very useful to me and probably anyone else who is teetering on the brink of investing heavily in a MFDB/system for the immediate future. Out of such discussions often comes useful info which in turn aids better decision making. I read every thread and post I can on the subject. Can we ever be too well informed? Even if some of it is conjecture...
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: Morgan_Moore on October 20, 2007, 08:29:44 am
Quote
Transparent integration? Three lens sets??
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147360\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

'Rollei' lenses, sinar CAB lenses, and another set I cant remember the name of

for the P3, the M and the HY6

Transparent integration.

I would ideally be after lenses that could move between a view camera and mirror camera (especially at those prices)

the rolleis fit the Xact but I think it is discontinued

the rolleis dont fit sinars own view camera system

and sinars (view camera) lenses dont fit the Hy6

So there is either no integration or it is planned and not communicated properly - a lack of transparency

IMO this would be a reason to think sinar rather than hassy - smooth integration to view camera solutions

SMM
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: Graham Mitchell on October 20, 2007, 08:46:37 am
Quote
I would ideally be after lenses that could move between a view camera and mirror camera (especially at those prices)

In what way does this make the Hy6 an 'error'? I don't see your point at all.  

Quote
the rolleis dont fit sinars own view camera system

and sinars (view camera) lenses dont fit the Hy6

Why should they?? This argument is ridiculous.
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: Morgan_Moore on October 20, 2007, 09:40:27 am
Quote
In what way does this make the Hy6 an 'error'? I don't see your point at all. 
Why should they?? This argument is ridiculous.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147374\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Maybe it is ridiculous maybe not - we are all free to our own opinions

My thinking goes like this

Hasselblad offer a great integrated systsem

the system however is limited - particularly in terms of movements and stitching for amazing big files

Sinar is a company that has a background in view camera solutions

Now if they could come to me with a system that smoothly and cost effectively moved my expesive digital back investment and my lens investment between a walk around mirrored solution and a studio view camera based solution then they would have a big selling point to move me into being a customer of thiers

I would have a reason to bin my H system

They would have a clear sales route - 'Hasselblad is a simple walkaround solution but with Sinar we take photography a level further - movement and perspective control'

At the moment they present a simple walkaround solution that is less developed than blad AND a totally seperate view solution

Look at the inegration they were trying to achieve with thier M system and the way it could be used as a rear standard on the P3 - they were on the right track

All they needed was an M2 with leaf lenses that work for both view and mirrored

Simply the last thing I want to do is buy a $4000 rodenstock 28mm for movements AND a mam or blad or rollei 28mm for another $4000 for mirrored use

Right now I own a rodenstock 47 ($2000ish) and a blad 50 ($2500) I have bought virtually the same glass tiwce -how dumb is that ?

I also own a sinar P camera and a sinar back, both being H mount I can swap between the H and the P fast - no screws or dinged chips - if I changed to sinars own walkaround camera i would need a $1000 adapter and screw changes - how dumb is that ?

SMM
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: KAP on October 20, 2007, 09:55:07 am
I think the state of the MF market is one of the factors why I have not jumped in. I can justify the expense, only if it's a system I think will be relevant to me in five years time. I can see H3 users being locked out of something  that only H4 users will get, I'm not confident other makers will not follow a similar path. That and the lack of raw support in many programs for MFB files. I don't want to spend £30k + to end up in some deadend, either camera or software. The Phaseone upgrade path looks like a bit of a treadmill to me, the constant need to throw large amounts of money at it to keep in touch.
I'm not confident any system will still be around in five years time, wether it's feasable or not I can't say, but if MFB's are to survive I think they must get cheaper, or some commitment from the makers to the existing customers not to make their equipment  next years paper weight.
I still fancy a Leaf though!

Kevin.
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: Graham Mitchell on October 20, 2007, 10:08:16 am
Quote
Now if they could come to me with a system that smoothly and cost effectively moved my expesive digital back investment and my lens investment between a walk around mirrored solution and a studio view camera based solution then they would have a big selling point to move me into being a customer of thiers

Some things make sense to move around, like the digital back, and Sinar has done what it can by providing an adapter system.

Lenses don't make so much sense. Everyone seems to be crying for fast apertures, autofocus and leaf shutters for medium format cameras. For view cameras people tend to want large image circles, and they are used to fairly small, simple and light lenses. To make a lens which does it all would price it out of the market for nearly everyone. Better to have specialised lenses.

At least with the larger image circle of Rollei lenses you can use them on a view camera using the right lens mount and a lens controller.

The potential for making a shifting back for the Hy6 is very intriguing, but that's far from reality so we can only speculate.

Quote
At the moment they present a simple walkaround solution that is less developed than blad AND a totally seperate view solution

Less developed in what way? There are more lenses, more viewfinder options, faster flash sync, white balance meter, focus trapping, etc.

Quote
Simply the last thing I want to do is buy a $4000 rodenstock 28mm for movements AND a mam or blad or rollei 28mm for another $4000 for mirrored use

I can certainly understand this, but understand that the Blad 28mm has a small image circle with no potential for shift. To make these lenses with a larger image circle would only make them more expensive and heavier. Would you rather buy one $8K lens which does it all but is heavier than either of the others? For the same price I would rather have two lenses which are better suited to their particular usage. Separate lenses will sell much better too, because most people don't need a lens which can do everything.

As people keep saying, no one camera does it all, and trying to create one which does would price it well out of the marketplace. It makes no sense commercially.

Quote
I also own a sinar P camera and a sinar back, both being H mount I can swap between them fast - no screws or dinged chips - if I changed to sinars own walkaround camera i would need a $1000 adapter and screw changes - how dumb is that ?

So it was ok to spend the money on a Hass H mount for your Sinar P but it's not ok to do the same for a Hy6 mount?? Hy6 mounts for view cameras are on the way.
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: rueyloon on October 20, 2007, 10:10:25 am
Morgan, won't that system you're describing be the ALPA ?

all you need is an Alpa XY and the Alpa TC......... and live view, or it's future incarnation where is can work without a computer.
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: Morgan_Moore on October 20, 2007, 10:20:35 am
Quote
Hy6 mounts for view cameras are on the way.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147386\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

All fair points.

It would be interesting to see the economics of 2 lenses verses one - you may be right

Rollie obvisouly thought thier lenses universal enough to produce both the Xact and the 6008

Personally I think the 6008/Xact system is currently the best thought out especially with the wash of used lenses - but discontinued or will be soon - maybe just bad comms from sinar


As for the HY6 to sinar view camera mount - Ive not seen a press release for that - maybe just bad comms from sinar

have a good day

S
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: Morgan_Moore on October 20, 2007, 10:26:47 am
Quote
Morgan, won't that system you're describing be the ALPA ?

all you need is an Alpa XY and the Alpa TC......... and live view, or it's future incarnation where is can work without a computer.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147387\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It would be if you could focus an alpa - they just missed the mirror and the AF or D3 standard live view and chip driven AF - maybe in the future it could indeed be very exiting to have a mirrorles walkabout camera - small ,cheap, light, low vibration, movements, no retrofucus aberations - fantastic - put me on the list

Its almost tempting to saw up a D3 to make such a thing - why did they bother with the C20 mirror

S
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: Graham Mitchell on October 20, 2007, 10:32:19 am
Morgan_Moore,

At least you can use the Rollei lenses on a view camera if you want, which you can't with the Hass H lenses. This is already possible, and is probably a great solution for an occasional tilt/shift user like me (and perhaps you?). It all comes down to the cost of the lens adapter and controller.

I didn't know about the Alpa solution until rueyloon's post.

(http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/alpa_180010010_002.jpg)

http://www.alpa.ch/index.php?path=products...s/lens_adapters (http://www.alpa.ch/index.php?path=products/lenses/lens_adapters)
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: Mike Chini on October 20, 2007, 10:33:20 am
I actually think the MFDB market will grow.  DSLR's are reaching a point where innovations are getting smaller and smaller with each new generation.  Look at the new 1Ds mk3.  The next wave of innovation (image-quality-wise) will be in MFDB's.  If they can start to come down in price (Hassy? Mamiya?), I think the many advantages of MFDB's will start to appeal to all the 1Ds mk 2 and 3 owners out there looking for something better (which is what photographers seem to do nowadays).  I agree that there has to be more longevity with these systems though and only Hasselblad and Mamiya look like they're heading in that direction.  Phase One has the software/ camera back set-up going for it but for how long (Lightroom)?  I'm actually considering investing in a MFDB for the first time at some point in the next year and while I'm no fan of the H-series cameras, I do think they'll be around for a very long time.
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: Morgan_Moore on October 20, 2007, 10:41:49 am
Quote
Morgan_Moore,

At least you can use the Rollei lenses on a view camera if you want, which you can't with the Hass H lenses. This is already possible, and is probably a great solution for an occasional tilt/shift user like me (and perhaps you?). It all comes down to the cost of the lens adapter and controller.

I didn't know about the Alpa solution until rueyloon's post.

(http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/alpa_180010010_002.jpg)

http://www.alpa.ch/index.php?path=products...s/lens_adapters (http://www.alpa.ch/index.php?path=products/lenses/lens_adapters)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147395\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I know. pretty cool esp for you as a 6008 man if I am not mistaken

This thread probably just cost you $5000 odd and more if you get a roden 28 too which will SMOOTHLY integrate with this setup - and sort your wide problems if you have them - no screws, no mount changes the gear just all drops together - one set of lenses

IMO this combo is currently the best solution ANY WHERE IN THE MF WORLD esp with the Xact too for big bellows stuff

I almost want to put a 'swap H1 and lenses for 6008 and lenses' on the the FS board right now

I knew none of this three years ago

But in terms of sinar becoming a hassy beating company the tagline

'buy our mirror camera that we are discontinuing, our view camera that we are discontinuing and somone elses compact rise/fall camera'

is hardly a snappy sales slogan

hopefully we begin to agree that sinar got the crown jewels and dropped them in the river

S
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: thsinar on October 20, 2007, 10:57:15 am
- "contender" = "a competitor, especially somebody who has a good chance of winning", this is the definition of this word.

So thanks Edmund, even if I'm sure that you din't mean it that way!

- merging of our R&D: well, I guess that is not something for tomorrow!

- musical chairs: I guess that's the game in which you have to pay attention to the moment when the music stops, isn't it?

 

Thierry

Quote
- Sinar remain a boutique contender but are in a good position to merge with one of the other players due to the Hy6 card. As a preliminary, they could choose to save some money by merging the R&D for their backs with Leaf.

Sinar, Phase and Leaf are playing musical chairs.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147350\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: thsinar on October 20, 2007, 11:12:39 am
well, we are here to speak. Ask you questions and I'll try to answer them. May be they won't satisfy you, but let's try.

Quote from: Morgan_Moore,Oct 20 2007, 05:53 PM
Sinar/jeoptic have the tools in place but I dont understand them
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147356\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Understood, we are well aware of this.

Quote from: Morgan_Moore,Oct 20 2007, 05:53 PM
for me it is a luxury to have more than 2mins setup and 30s with the subject
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147356\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Not really tried intensively yet, but it shall come

Quote from: Morgan_Moore,Oct 20 2007, 05:53 PM
Sinar  have been trying to peddle studio products for use outside in fast moving locations with little apparent sucess for years
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147356\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Sinar m syncs at 1/100, but I agree that it has no meaning for location. I said it already, this camera was and still is a workhorse in many studio place, where precise, remote and slave-mode from the computer are necessary (museums, archives, libraries, car studio photography, ...). It might not sell by the tausends, but it does its job.

You present an advantage of the possibility to use 2 different sets of lenses (actually 3, with the Nikon lenses) as a disadvantage, when it is an advantage and allows the use of existing Hasselblad lenses

Quote from: Morgan_Moore,Oct 20 2007, 05:53 PM
First error was the 60th of the M (and two lens sets!)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147356\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

We are still working on this one, admitted. Is there any camera system out doing it all and as much as Sinar is doing it?

Quote from: Morgan_Moore,Oct 20 2007, 05:53 PM
so it has to do EVERYTHING
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147356\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

S
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147356\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
[/quote]

Best regards,
Thierry
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: thsinar on October 20, 2007, 11:18:17 am
in which way is Fuji backing Hasselblad?

Quote
Fuji is clearly backing Hasselblad and Hassy is making money.
 
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147362\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: Morgan_Moore on October 20, 2007, 11:21:24 am
TH

It has become clear to me in this thread what I would like to see in a hassy beating super luxury camera system

It exists right now

Sinar Back in Rollie mount
Rolie 6008,
Alpa TC12 and rollie lens mount (do they do a rolei back mount?)
Rolie Xact

wide lens 28mm roden in ALpa mount
rollei lenses 40 and beyond

maybe a couple of big image circle lenses 47 and 120 ?

Sinar owns all of these bits exept the ALPA bit and is discontiuing them all with no clear message about better replacements and similarly smooth intergration

Have you dropped the crown jewels in the river?

S

no I cant spell rollie  
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: thsinar on October 20, 2007, 11:31:54 am
Sam,

The Hy6 is not in any way limiting the adaption of a Sinarback: ANY Sinarback which can be mounted on a Hy6 can ALSO be mounted on a view camera (being it a Sinar one, or another), simply with the respective adapter plate.

I may be don't get your point, but it seems that there is confusion

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
As for the HY6 to sinar view camera mount - Ive not seen a press release for that - maybe just bad comms from sinar

S
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147391\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: thsinar on October 20, 2007, 11:38:57 am
Sam,

I know we disagree on this, for having argued quite a few time on this subject with you. But you say it yourself, that nobody is going to have a second set of MFDB. So if you have this configuration, Sinar p/p2/x + H, and then you wish another camera platform, is that not the optimal way by simply changing the adapter plate? Is 2 minutes (at the maximum) "unscrewing/screwing" really such a hassle and struggle?

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
I also own a sinar P camera and a sinar back, both being H mount I can swap between the H and the P fast - no screws or dinged chips - if I changed to sinars own walkaround camera i would need a $1000 adapter and screw changes - how dumb is that ?

SMM
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147381\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: Morgan_Moore on October 20, 2007, 11:43:51 am
Quote
Sam,

The Hy6 is not in any way limiting the adaption of a Sinarback: ANY Sinarback which can be mounted on a Hy6 can ALSO be mounted on a view camera (being it a Sinar one, or another), simply with the respective adapter plate.

I may be don't get your point, but it seems that there is confusion

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147405\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

IF YOU USE THIRD PARTY AND SOON TO BE DISCONTUINUED PRODUCTS..

If I am correct using a 6008 and suddenly needing wide you just drop the back off and plonk it on the the alpa with a 28 or 24 - no screws - click

Should you need rise on your R lenses with you just stick your 6008 lens on the alpa - click

Should you need movements you just drop you back into a Xact - no screw - same lenses - click click

Subject to image circle limitations this is the most flexible and economic system possible.

ON THE OTHER HAND

If you are loyal  to sinars current and announced future products..

You are using a HY6 and suddenly need wide you

unscrew the mount and replace with a P3 mount, you have to use a P3 becuse sinar dont make a handy little camera like the Alpa

should you need movements you then go out and buy a SECOND set of LENSES for your view camera because you Hy6 /rollei lenses DONT fit on the view camera

we know those lenses have a coverage beyond 645 but there is no way to access it

Maybe I am confused.

---

I challenge you to a race -  time is of course money to my clients.

We both photograph a hotel, detail shots and some wide shots with rise and fall and a few details with some rise too

I use a rollie 6008 and a 28 on an ALPA

You use a P3 and and HY6

Anyway I won for the first 10 hotels because you were still saving up for your second set of lenses

S
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: thsinar on October 20, 2007, 11:45:29 am
Sam,

are you by chance an "Aussie"? My friend from Australia spells it "Rolie" as well!
 

Seriously, we are discontinuing nothing, so far, and I don't think you have read something like that from Sinar. Then, Sinar does not owe Rollei, respectively F&H and their Rolleiflex system. It should be up to them to communicate about their system, not Sinar.

But you are right, your dream camera system looks interesting.

Best,
Thierry

Quote
TH

It has become clear to me in this thread what I would like to see in a hassy beating super luxury camera system

It exists right now

Sinar Back in Rollie mount
Rolie 6008,
Alpa TC12 and rollie lens mount (do they do a rolei back mount?)
Rolie Xact

wide lens 28mm roden in ALpa mount
rollei lenses 40 and beyond

maybe a couple of big image circle lenses 47 and 120 ?

Sinar owns all of these bits exept the ALPA bit and is discontiuing them all with no clear message about better replacements and similarly smooth intergration

Have you dropped the crown jewels in the river?

S

no I cant spell rollie 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147404\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: Morgan_Moore on October 20, 2007, 11:57:18 am
Quote
Seriously, we are discontinuing nothing,[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147408\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well I am confused - and it is your companies fault - I am just a dumb punter - it is your companies job to outline a smooth to operate, economic,  sensibly integrated system, secure serviced future and exciting development path

 the 6008 is on your site, the Xact is not, (I think it was?)  the HY6 is yours - It says sinar on the top even though we all know it is 70% rollie

you are 'developing the 35 for the Rollei/hy6 mount' or pipe up about that enough

you will distribute rollei fit lenses ?

I think Roolie = sinar

I am not confused in the fact that I cant build a super system like I outlined from the products on your site

Which is actually all I want to do - walk into a shop and buy the stuff

Just like you can with Hs crummy little system

In fact on your site I cant find any lenses that fit the Hy6 at all - get it sorted mate    

S
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: BJL on October 20, 2007, 12:00:52 pm
Quote
in which way is Fuji backing Hasselblad?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147403\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The Fujinon lenses for one, but surely you know that the so called "Hasselblad" H system is more a product of Fuji than of the Hasselblad division of Danish based company Hasselblad-Imacon. The body designs are largely or entirely by Fuji, as well as the lenses being all Fujinons.  Hasselblad has not really designed a new product since the 500 series, since the Xpan was essentially a rebranded Fuji product.

In fact, I would roughly describe the H system as a partnership between
- Imacon for the digital parts
- Fuji for the optical parts
- Hasselblad for its prestigious image and its customer support network.

On using the Hasselblad image for marketing non-Hasselblad designs, note that even purely Imacon products like film scanners are now branded as Hasselblad.
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: thsinar on October 20, 2007, 12:17:54 pm
One thing I wish to clear out: Sinar is not Rollei, nor F&H nor does Sinar owe them, nor do we have any influence on the continuation or discontinuation of their line of products. Therefore I cannot speak about any discontinuation, as I am not at all aware of it. Sinar itself has discontinued none of its products, yet, and am not aware of any of it being soon.

Yes, for the time being Sinar (through its existing distribution channels) is distributing the whole range of Rolleiflex 600x cameras, lenses and accessories, as well as the Xact2 and its complete line of accessories.

I agree that there are no AFD lenses for the Sinar Hy6 "visually" displayed yet on our webpage: this is going to be done soon. However, you can download all the Rolleiflex 6000 - System Catalog, the Rolleiflex 6008 AF - Brochure, the Rollei X-Act-2 - Brochure and the Rollei Electronic Shutter - Brochure from our "Downloads" part.

Best regards,
Thierry


Quote
Well I am confused - and it is your companies fault - I am just a dumb punter

 the 6008 is on your site, the Xact is not, (I think it was?)  the HY6 is yours

you are 'developing the 35 for the Rollei/hy6 mount'

you will distribute rollei lenses ?

I think Roolie = sinar

I am not confused in the fact that I cant build a super system like I outlined from the products on your site

Which is actually all I want to do - walk into a shop and buy the stuff

Just like you can with Hs crummy little system

In fact on your site I cant find any lenses that fit the Hy6 at all   

S
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Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: Morgan_Moore on October 20, 2007, 12:21:43 pm
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One thing I wish to clear out: Sinar is not Rollei, nor F&H nor does Sinar owe them, nor do we have any influence on the continuation or discontinuation of their line of products.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147413\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

So they could discontinue the Hy6 and you would have no influence

S
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: thsinar on October 20, 2007, 12:27:00 pm
Yes, BJL, this is clear and I know it.

I was understanding Edmund's "Fuji is clearly backing Hasselblad ..." as with a clear connotation of backing "financially", since he was answering to Graham who was saying that Leaf and Sinar both had sizeable parent companies.

Therefore my question "in which way", since it is somehow misleading.

Best regards,
Thierry

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The Fujinon lenses for one, but surely you know that the so called "Hasselblad" H system is more a product of Fuji than of the Hasselblad division of Danish based company Hasselblad-Imacon. The body designs are largely or entirely by Fuji, as well as the lenses being all Fujinons.  Hasselblad has not really designed a new product since the 500 series, since the Xpan was essentially a rebranded Fuji product.

In fact, I would roughly describe the H system as a partnership between
- Imacon for the digital parts
- Fuji for the optical parts
- Hasselblad for its prestigious image and its customer support network.

On using the Hasselblad image for marketing non-Hasselblad designs, note that even purely Imacon products like film scanners are now branded as Hasselblad.
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Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: thsinar on October 20, 2007, 12:28:52 pm
Not really, Sam!

Jenoptik is the owner of this camera, not F&H. I was thinking that this was clear, for having explained a few times already, in numerous different treads.

Best regards,
Thierry

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So they could discontinue the Hy6 and you would have no influence

S
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Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: Morgan_Moore on October 20, 2007, 12:28:56 pm
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Nobody said it was discontinued, so why pronounce it dead?

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147415\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

My impression was the Rolle and Sinar where somehow merged what with rolle priduct on sinar website and all (I dont see a link to canon on the nikon site)

It would be my guess that in sensible rationisation one view camera system would be dropped

That would most likely be the Xact not the Sinar

It would also be my guess that rationisation would kill the M and the 6008 in favour of the all singing Hy6 over time

For me to be in any of these systems with a deep investment I would want to be very sure of contiuned development and service esp after get my Hassy hands burnt

I think it is most bizzare the whole tangle and worrying to those thinking of dropping $50k that way


S
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: Morgan_Moore on October 20, 2007, 12:46:18 pm
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Not really, Sam!

Jenoptik is the owner of this camera, not F&H. I was thinking that this was clear, for having explained a few times already, in numerous different treads.

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147421\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

So F+H could go bust and Jenoptic would have the rights to a camera that was not being made

It doesnt really matter to me where you get the bits from - like nikon get their chips from who knows where and their PCBs from somewhere else - who knows or cares

But I am confident in thier sales and service

I would just want to be presented with an integrated system that will have spares for 5 years plus if I were dropping that cash

we havent even mentioned leaf or phase yet  




S
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: thsinar on October 20, 2007, 12:47:35 pm
EPd,

I think that Sinar and our distributors DO communicate about the availability of the products we are distributing, speaking about the Rolleiflex and X-act 2 systems. At least all of our distributors have the information and know about it. We can now argue for long if this is done efficiently or if it should be done differently, or the lack of information about this on our webpage (to which I agree to a certain extend and which we are well aware) but somehow I find this a bit exagerated, even if things can be improved.

As for little information about the Sinar Hy6 currently on our homepage: yes, true. But expect to see some soon.

I happened to go the Hasselblad webpage and did not yet find any information about the H2F, though I understood it was shiping already. So please bear with us, our communication might not be perfect, yet, but customers or potential customers can get it.

Anyway, thanks for the remarks, which will be forwarded as usual, with my comments.

Best regards,
Thierry

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Since Sinar is the distributor of Rolleiflex systems in most parts of the world it would be expected that Sinar takes care of the communication to customers about the availability of the products they are representing, no? By the way, some Sinar distributors do and they will tell you that the X-act is still available as it has been now for years. Nobody said it was discontinued, so why pronounce it dead?

As a more general problem I have with Sinar is that their communication of unique selling points is extremely bad. Why doesn't everybody know about their adapter system for DB's, for example? It should be the most obvious discerning factor for those thinking of buying into such an expensive thing. If you go to one of their websites it is just impossible to find the really important information. Try to learn about the Hy6, for example. You might expect that to be one of their current spearheads in markting communication. But all you can find is some taglines with selling points and a PDF file with a body design in it that has not made it to line production. This camera seems to be selling right now and you can't find any up-to-date information about it. Are we all supposed to find a dealer first and talk to them? A dealer who generally doesn't know shit about the Hy6 and how it relates to other components that it can work with (the Rolleiflex options, that is). Look at all the confusion we see on this board and the answers that have to be given by me (an independant person, not related to any of the companies involved), because they are not in the general Sinar communication.

Obviously, Thierry, you are doing your best to be here and to provide good answers, but it is ridiculous that you have to sit at the end of the river to catch fish that otherwise would end up in the sea. What about all those potential customers that do not make it to this place? Where do they find out what they should know before they decide to go with which MFDB system? That is the very ONE thing that Hassy has understood a lot better: find your potential customers before they find a better product. And there you are (together with F&H): knowing that you have the better product and still wondering why customers do not pick you for selling it to them. It's a bloody shame!
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Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: thsinar on October 20, 2007, 12:51:31 pm
I think I can reassure you about this with a fair certainty.

Thierry

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I would just want to be presented with an integrated system that will have spares for 5 years plus if I were dropping that cash

S
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Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: BJL on October 20, 2007, 12:54:42 pm
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I was understanding Edmund's "Fuji is clearly backing Hasselblad ..." as with a clear connotation of backing "financially" ...
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Understood: in that case my comment is that Fuji is paying most or all of the R&D costs for the non-digital side of the H system, a significant financial contribution even if not money directly into Hasselblad-Imacon's pockets. One possible effect of Fuji's financial resources is the far faster development and release so far of auto-focus lenses than for the Rollei-based systems. Hopefully the broader support of the new Hy6 "team" will help to expand the AF lens selection.


P. S. In case anyone has still missed it,
there is no longer such a company as Hasselblad
and Hasselblad did not take over Imacon, but closer to the reverse. A holding company bought both of them and then merged them into a new company, run by the former Imacon management from the former Imacon offices in Denmark, not the former Hasselblad offices in Sweden.

"Imacon-Hasselblad" would be a more accurate name for this new company.
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: Graham Mitchell on October 20, 2007, 12:59:36 pm
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So F+H could go bust and Jenoptic would have the rights to a camera that was not being made

None of us is privy to the contract between the parties. If it was done properly, Jenoptik will have the right to resume manufacture or buy out the company etc.
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: thsinar on October 20, 2007, 01:05:46 pm
I don't see photography as a race, even though I understand and know the necessity to be fast in some situations and the limited time available.

But yes, you might win this race, by having the shots faster on your HD. However, I would certainly not take a Sinar p3, but a f3 fitted with its sliding adapter and the 28mm. And I guess I won't be that much slower or even heavier than you.

Thierry

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I challenge you to a race -  time is of course money to my clients.

We both photograph a hotel, detail shots and some wide shots with rise and fall and a few details with some rise too

I use a rollie 6008 and a 28 on an ALPA

You use a P3 and and HY6

Anyway I won for the first 10 hotels because you were still saving up for your second set of lenses

S
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Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: Morgan_Moore on October 20, 2007, 01:11:04 pm
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None of us is privy to the contract between the parties. If it was done properly, Jenoptik will have the right to resume manufacture or buy out the company etc.
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Sure but to me the HY6 is only half of the story - what about the lenses - who makes them

What about the mount license - if rollei went T*ts up maybe even shnieder wholud have to stop or ziess or whoever actually makes them

Anyway - lets all be trusting we wont understand the contracts and anyone could go pop tomorrow

My main interest is a fast to use system with more flexibility than the H system which doesnt present itself through sinars current product range

So they are failing to get that USP even though it is there for those who search

S
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: TechTalk on October 20, 2007, 01:12:22 pm
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The Fujinon lenses for one, but surely you know that the so called "Hasselblad" H system is more a product of Fuji than of the Hasselblad division of Danish based company Hasselblad-Imacon. The body designs are largely or entirely by Fuji, as well as the lenses being all Fujinons.  Hasselblad has not really designed a new product since the 500 series, since the Xpan was essentially a rebranded Fuji product.

In fact, I would roughly describe the H system as a partnership between
- Imacon for the digital parts
- Fuji for the optical parts
- Hasselblad for its prestigious image and its customer support network.

On using the Hasselblad image for marketing non-Hasselblad designs, note that even purely Imacon products like film scanners are now branded as Hasselblad.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147412\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Where did you come up with all of this nonsense? Why do you want to associate yourself with posting misinformation?
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: thsinar on October 20, 2007, 01:15:30 pm
Understood too, concerning the R&D costs.

Hasselblad and Imacon: the holding company which has taken over both is named Shriro Group of Companies, with headquarters in Hong Kong.

Thierry

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Understood: in that case my comment is that Fuji is paying most or all of the R&D costs for the non-digital side of the H system, a significant financial contribution even if not money directly into Hasselblad-Imacon's pockets. One possible effect of Fuji's financial resources is the far faster development and release so far of auto-focus lenses than for the Rollei-based systems. Hopefully the broader support of the new Hy6 "team" will help to expand the AF lens selection.
P. S. In case anyone has still missed it,
there is no longer such a company as Hasselblad
and Hasselblad did not take over Imacon, but closer to the reverse. A holding company bought both of them and then merged them into a new company, run by the former Imacon management from the former Imacon offices in Denmark, not the former Hasselblad offices in Sweden.

"Imacon-Hasselblad" would be a more accurate name for this new company.
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Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: TechTalk on October 20, 2007, 01:17:31 pm
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Understood: in that case my comment is that Fuji is paying most or all of the R&D costs for the non-digital side of the H system, a significant financial contribution even if not money directly into Hasselblad-Imacon's pockets. One possible effect of Fuji's financial resources is the far faster development and release so far of auto-focus lenses than for the Rollei-based systems. Hopefully the broader support of the new Hy6 "team" will help to expand the AF lens selection.
P. S. In case anyone has still missed it,
there is no longer such a company as Hasselblad
and Hasselblad did not take over Imacon, but closer to the reverse. A holding company bought both of them and then merged them into a new company, run by the former Imacon management from the former Imacon offices in Denmark, not the former Hasselblad offices in Sweden.

"Imacon-Hasselblad" would be a more accurate name for this new company.
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You have no idea what the truth is about this subject.
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: thsinar on October 20, 2007, 01:31:59 pm
No, I don't take it as an attack. We are well aware of our "weakness" in this for the moment. I said that things can be improved, and they will.

You don't know me! My superiors will certainly hear me loud and clear, even if in Bangkok! Be sure of that and for this particular issue, as much as for any issue/suggestion raised here.

This being said, you might know that Bangkok is 5 hours ahead of you: it is not that this discussion does bother or annoy me, or that I want to escape it, but am simply feeling tired and am living it for now.

Good night,
Thierry

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Dear Thierry,

Please don't see this as an attack. I think Sinar's communication could (and should) be improved a lot and all I am trying to do is pointing out where you could start looking. Me too would like to see the Hy6 be an overnight success, because I honestly believe it would be well deserved. Not because of the communication about it, but because of the product that it is. The way things are going now is not how it should be. I am frustrated about that. Soft and friendly words would not describe this frustration adequately, so that is why my wording is as strong as I chose. Please do not give your superiors a chance to push my remarks aside by adding comforting words. I may have a lot of patience, but the modern market place does not. Since the Hy6 was delayed for months there has been plenty of time to update the website before the actual launch. There is no excuse for this at all, even though it may have its reasons. (BTW, I think the entire webdesign of Sinar's website sucks. It is not visually attractive, nor is it informative.) Sometimes things need to be said. I hope my words will actually make a difference, because I wish Sinar all the best of the world. Try to keep that intention in mind.

As for Hassy and the H2F: the H2F is a bandaid for those who feel fucked by Hassy. It should be mentioned under the label "damage control". But since Hassy does not have a place for that in their communication they will not hurry much to bring this news forward. On the other hand you will find everything about the H3DII on their website. I think it is smart communication: push forward what you want to sell and keep an alternative for the unhappy clients at hand. Just in case champagne and kaviar can no longer keep them quiet.

Best wishes,
EPd
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Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: samuel_js on October 20, 2007, 02:25:34 pm
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P. S. In case anyone has still missed it,
there is no longer such a company as Hasselblad
and Hasselblad did not take over Imacon, but closer to the reverse. A holding company bought both of them and then merged them into a new company, run by the former Imacon management from the former Imacon offices in Denmark, not the former Hasselblad offices in Sweden.

"Imacon-Hasselblad" would be a more accurate name for this new company.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147434\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


The name of the company is Viktor Hasselblad Aktiebolag , swedish AB. I could point you to the site with the entire information about the company but i think you don't need it as you wouldn't believe it anyway.

One thing I'd like to add to this amazing thread is that the fact is that the Hy6 is a reality now, and that is no mistake.


Still amazed with the kind of misinformation and specutalion some members of this forum can produce.
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: BJL on October 20, 2007, 03:09:09 pm
The press release about the merger of Imacon with Hasselblad under the common ownership of the Hong Kong based Shriro group is available here:
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0408/04081701...lbladimacon.asp (http://www.dpreview.com/news/0408/04081701hasselbladimacon.asp)

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8/12/2004 - Shriro Sweden, the holding company of Victor Hasselblad AB, and part of the Hong Kong-headquartered Shriro Group, has announced the acquisition of leading international high-end scanner and digital cameraback manufacturer, Imacon. The move will see Imacon and Hasselblad merge to accelerate Hasselblad’s ambitions in the professional digital photographic sector, and creates the first single source supplier for digital photography at the top end of the professional photographic market.

The Executive Team of the merged Hasselblad Imacon company, Lars Pappila, Tom Olesen and Christian Poulsen, together with Mr. Michael Binns, second from the right, Managing Director of Shriro Pacific Ltd.

Christian Poulsen, founder of Imacon, and CEO of the newly-enlarged Hasselblad ...


Never mind the inaccurate talk in the paragraph before the press release suggesting that Hasselblad acquired Imacon, (a claim made in numerous other press reports too): the actual press release makes it clear that
- Shriro acquired Imacon, having already acquired Hasselblad
- The Executive Team of the merged Hasselblad-Imacon company is
-- Christian Poulsen, CEO of Hasselblad-Imacon, formerly CEO and founder of Imacon
-- Tom Olesen, the former managing director (2nd in command?) of Imacon
-- Lars Pappila, formerly president and CEO of Hasselblad.

OK, Hassleblad management got one out of three places on the new Executive Team, but Imacon got two including the top spot.
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: Morgan_Moore on October 20, 2007, 04:12:57 pm
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Still amazed with the kind of misinformation and specutalion some members of this forum can produce.
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If that was pointed at me and I dont mind if it was  

My confusion seems to be over the Xact range of cameras future.

and that of the 6008

googling rollie leads to [a href=\"http://www.rollei.com/]http://www.rollei.com/[/url]

click on medium format and you go to

http://www.franke-heidecke.net/ (http://www.franke-heidecke.net/)

click on products and there is no mention of the Xact

download the 6008 PDF and it is on page 18 of 20 in a diagram

BUT BASICALLY THE CAMERA IS NOT THERE

go to www.sinar.ch click on cameras

AND IS NOT THERE

click on INFOS

download the rollei datasheet and it is there in the same graphic on page 16 of 16

Nothing says it is still current.

Visit robertwhite a uk rollie dealer - IT IS NOT LISTED

Lastra a uk sinar dealer - IT IS NOT LISTED

That seems pretty vacant for a current produced serviced and promoted product

Hence my confusion.

In terms of the 6008 I just assumed that would fade away in the same way as I assume a 1dsMK2s have faded away with the 1dsMk3 coming along

obviously wrong !

SMM
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: canmiya on October 20, 2007, 04:24:14 pm
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In Medium Format with AF, there are now the following cameras left in play after Hasselblad announced the cancellation of the H2:
- Contax (inactive, all backs)
- Hasselblad (closed, Hasselblad backs only)
- Mamiya (active, all backs and their own)
- Sinar/Leaf/Rollei (launch stage, own backs only at this point)

The digital back companies are Hasselblad, Phase One, Leaf, and Sinar and Mamiya.

My predictions (not fact, not rumor, just personal analysis):

- Hasselblad revenues are going to continue to grow, and their system will improve markedly as they re-invest into software and firmware.  Hasselblad can now afford to be commercially aggressive and have added resources for software R&D.

- Leaf have a new system, which can generate an upgrade revenue stream, but sales are going to be under pressure from Hasselblad

- Sinar remain a boutique contender but are in a good position to merge with one of the other players due to the Hy6 card. As a preliminary, they could choose to save some money by merging the R&D for their backs with Leaf.

- Mamiya will continue to act as an open platform for the time being, on the strength of the Phase and their own back sales which will be decent due to the price point. Note the accessible pricing of their lenses. It is clear that Mamiya has the ability to develop good products, while manufacturing and distributing at the lowest cost point in the market.

- Phase One are in a tough spot. They may have been a lead contender technically, but the other players now have them in a platform squeeze. A merger with some existing player or entrant seems increasingly likely.

In summary, I'd say the only "sure things" in the MF market are the inevitable growth of an increasingly aggressive Hasselblad, and the survival of Mamiya as the cheapest solution. Sinar, Phase and Leaf are playing musical chairs.
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it seems to me that the "db" part of the imacom-hasselblad entity has been driving the direction of the company-i'm not suggesting that is necessarily a bad thing, only that this is how i perceive things.
given the fact that jenoptik owns the Hy6, and licenses agreements seem to facilitate the co-branding/ vanity branding, they and sinar, which they own are in a different position than say leaf is.  if my understanding  that Jenoptik will also be manufacturing a line of lenses under the "jena "  name for the Hy6, then they will in effect be producing a complete imaging solution-bodies, lenses and backs.  as well as being the licensee for the Hy6 bodies...infact when you add the broncolor card into  the sinar equation,  you have an entity that offers photographers a complete imaging solution-image cameras, lenses, digital backs and lighting.....

As for leaf, the competition is not just hasselblad, but sinar as well.    If i look at the prices of the 54 and 75 mp back hy6/afi  packages, they are pretty close-if my memory serves me right.  Since the software and items like gain, for example are handled so differently, what would be the advantage to sinar and leaf merging R&D?  it is interesting because you speak of both sinar and leaf as if they were small indy companies, when they are part of entities with substantial interests and resources.  Kodak seems to take a very hands off approach to its' susidiaries that produce well, and i would expect that to continue as long as leaf continues to operate well.
Where mamiya is concerned, the price of their two latest lens offerings, suggest that r&d, even for the "value leader" in the market is high.  mamiya is in an interesting position: currently it is a one trick pony with one db (i am intentionally leaving the zd camera out of the mix.)  they are going to have to make a decision as to whether they wll produce a zd Mk2 back and/or camera, and if they are going to offer multiple mp solutions?  they could decide to go it alone or they could colab with a company with greater strenght in producing backs.  at this point, one of the weakest aspects of the mamiya 645 auto focus system which they need to address is the limited sync speed...
phase is sitting in an interesting position imo....and not as tough a spot as you see them in.  they have had a couple of years to deal with the changing landscape----remember the hy6 and the zd back were announced sometime ago, and hasselblad -imacom did not just appen yesterday:  I doubt they have been sitting back and pondering life.  They have jsut been playing their cards close to the vest.

the real issues, imo as it relates to the future of mf digital for professional photogs, have less to do with which company's platform, but  more to do with the price of equipment and the fact that a growing number of clients are under budget constraints and are expecting us to work for less.  it's ridiculously low prices for unique images at some of the leading stock agencies.
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: bradleygibson on October 20, 2007, 04:38:00 pm
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Where did you come up with all of this nonsense?
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TechTalk,

Like you, I don't condone passing off speculation and rumour as fact, of course, but I feel it would be more helpful to the community to correct any misinformation than simply to dispute it.  Wouldn't you agree?

I'd appreciate it if you (or anyone else for that matter) could shed some like on the nature of the relationship between Fujifilm Corporation and Victor Hasselblad AB in the development of the H-series of cameras.  It's an interesting collaboration which is, for better or for worse, changing the face of the medium format photography industry.

All (factual) insight is most welcome.

Best regards,
Brad
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: samuel_js on October 20, 2007, 04:54:31 pm
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If that was pointed at me and I dont mind if it was   
obviously wrong !

SMM
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It wasn't pointed to anyone in particular.
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: AndreNapier on October 20, 2007, 05:10:04 pm
If I inherited $1 million under condition that I have to invest it in US profit shares of medium format digital market and keep it there untouched for ten years my diversification would be as follow:
Hasselblad - 70%
Phase One - 18%
Leaf          - 12%
Take your picks.

For Rollei or Sinar to be successful in US they would have completely change their marketing strategies and to start to understand the role of positive advertisement desperately needed to push their excellent products. I do not see it happening any time soon. We do not buy Cereal X because it is good, we buy it because Hanna Montana eats it.
Andre
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: Geoffrey on October 20, 2007, 05:33:08 pm
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If I inherited $1 million under condition that I have to invest it in US profit shares of medium format digital market and keep it there untouched for ten years my diversification would be as follow:
Hasselblad - 70%
Phase One - 18%
Leaf          - 12%
Take your picks.

For Rollei or Sinar to be successful in US they would have completely change their marketing strategies and to start to understand the role of positive advertisement desperately needed to push their excellent products. I do not see it happening any time soon. We do not buy Cereal X because it is good, we buy it because Hanna Montana eats it.
Andre
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While I have obvious Rollei sympathies (owner of 6003 for 15 years, and 4 Schneider lenses for it) I must agree with the above. The basic issue is that proud European engineering and manufacturing companies are often "product" driven - that is, they produce what they think is needed. They make what they believe is a great product, and it often is just that. They assume the market will respond positively.

This is in contract to "demand" driven companies, which listens to the market, finds their spot, and respond, and changes quickly if there isn't the market response.

This extends to how they respond to marketing - the product driven companies have histrically a rather relaxed notion to marketing, believing in the end, quality will out. The demand driven companies market as if their business depends on it (which it does).

Given deep enough pockets, the product driven companies can exist just fine for a while, but recent history has them either going bust after 10-20 years of this approach (in today's market), or changing their tune (re: Mercedes).

Demand driven companies (and their responsiveness to marketing needs) are all the rage these days. In fact, one might esay a company can't survive without this attention to marketing.

Companies like Apple are an interesting cross between the two - mostly product driven, but with a savvy way of marketing it. Leica and Sinar are of the old guard, and are slowly catching up - Leica moreso. Sinar is, well, not quite there.

I say that as a follower of the brand, as an interested party wanting their best success. But they still struggle, don't quite get how to get American market penetration,a nd are just not a factor in the US. Maybe in Europe moreso, but here, its  alonely day until one sees their products. I hope fervently this changes... for them and for all their supporters and friends. I just don't know how they plan on staying in the game without more aggressive marketing.

A poor exchange rate doesn't help this to be sure, esp. when coupled with high European labor costs. So I don't know the answer, but gee, I'd really like a $15-20k bundle of camera and back. Really.  

Geoff G.
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: BJL on October 20, 2007, 06:13:45 pm
Quote
I'd appreciate it if you (or anyone else for that matter) could shed some like on the nature of the relationship between Fujifilm Corporation and Victor Hasselblad AB in the development of the H-series of cameras.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=147487\")
One starting point for web searching on this topic is the name under which this camera is sold in Japan: The Fujifilm GX645AF Professional.

Here are a couple of mentions in official Fujifilm sites, one in English
[a href=\"http://www.fujifilm.co.uk/about/review/index-imaging.php]http://www.fujifilm.co.uk/about/review/index-imaging.php[/url]
and two in Japanese
http://www.fujifilm.co.jp/news_r/nrj1000.html (http://www.fujifilm.co.jp/news_r/nrj1000.html)
http://fujifilm.jp/personal/filmcamera/med...5af/design.html (http://fujifilm.jp/personal/filmcamera/mediumformat/gx645af/design.html)

Like the last two, a lot of the best information seems to be available only in Japanese, since only is Japan is this camera sold under the Fujiifilm brand name.


Isn't Bernard based in Japan? Any comments Bernard?
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: bradleygibson on October 20, 2007, 06:40:54 pm
Thanks for this, BJL,

In the first link, Fuji simply states that the camera was "developed in collaboration with Victor Hasselblad AB", but I didn't see any of the details.

For the second and third links, (fortunately my wife is Japanese) they discuss the marketing points of the GX645AF.  One point of interest is that the article says that the "Fuji Photo Company" and the "Fuji Light Industry" (approximate translations) are proud to announce the camera.  I suppose this means that Fuji is involved in manufacturing, but I wonder if it is for more than just the glass.

-Brad
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: bradleygibson on October 20, 2007, 06:50:46 pm
Andre, Geoffrey and EPd,

Guys, very well put.

I'm inclined to agree with you as well on the marketing front.  There's definitely a cultural mismatch, but I wonder if it's more than just a different way of doing things.  These companies have very bright people working for them, and I'd imagine that if it was a priority for them to understand and crack the US market, they could at least develop the required understanding in short order.

Perhaps they've done this, but found that the implementation is either too difficult or too expensive, or both.  It's hard to imagine that these companiies would truly be baffled by American marketing--but rather have chosen not to engage in it.

Thoughts?

-Brad
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: Gary Ferguson on October 20, 2007, 07:09:21 pm
Quote
- Hasselblad revenues are going to continue to grow, and their system will improve markedly as they re-invest into software and firmware.  Hasselblad can now afford to be commercially aggressive and have added resources for software R&D.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147350\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I agree.

The future of digital will be about integrating cameras, optics, and software. The Hasselblad H28mm and the next generation of Canon's Raw conversion software demonstrate the point. Once lens designers have integrated software to handle distortion correction they can work miracles with optical performance. Look at the history of Hasselblad's V series 38/40mm lenses; their last lens, the 40mm IF, convincingly outperformed every other V series 38mm and 40mm optic, but it suffers from the worst distortion in their entire V series range (excluding the 30mm fisheye of course). I've never been lucky enough to use the H28mm, but the MTF charts are simply stunning, all because distortion control has moved from being an intractable optical challenge to a simple software chore. But pulling off this trick demands that the software knows the exact subject distance for each shot, hence complete integration of camera, lens and software is key.

In the long run it's another blow for Phase One's Capture One (and Aperture et al); the camera, the optics, and the raw converter need to be one single integrated package from a single supplier.

Once I've gotten over my personal shock as the owner of a P45+ back (which is now a perfectly functional but essentially marooned historical novelty) I think it's a positive and exciting development.

So far the whole digital revolution thing has felt overstated, apart from a few novelties like HDR the really exciting stuff has all been downstream with the editing, which was equally applicable to scanned negatives so not unique to digital capture. But if the future moves to full integration who knows what truly revolutionary digital developments tomorrow might bring? Exciting times, if temporarily uncomfortable for people like myself who've probably backed the wrong horse.
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: Graham Mitchell on October 20, 2007, 08:16:22 pm
Quote
A company like Franke & Heidecke mainly floats on their home market, where customers think the same way as they do. And although this company has very bright people aboard, their strength is definately not in thinking creatively about approaching the market place....

Yes, this is true of many companies in Germanic culture. When I am in Germany I encounter many fantastic domestically produced products at good prices and find it hard to believe that these companies are satisfied with only the local market. If only they could hand over the marketing to the Americans they would have a killer combination.

You are right that they expect these cameras to sell themselves, and marketing is an afterthought. I sincerely hope it changes. I have actually written to the head of marketing at Sinar in the past making many suggestions.
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: godtfred on October 20, 2007, 09:39:00 pm
there was a long post here about stuff i tought could be cool on/in the Hy6 (taking the stick from morgan_moore) that did not have much to do about this thread, sorry  

-axel
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: TechTalk on October 20, 2007, 09:59:32 pm
Quote
Well, feel free to enlighten us all with your apparently better information.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147452\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I don't claim to have better information than is available to most of the public. But I don't have a desire to mix speculation and fantasies, sprinkled with grains of truth either.

I've had a busy workload today and was hoping someone else would clean the "information" cesspool. There is a bit of old advice that goes... Don't wrestle a pig. You just end up covered in mud–and the pig likes it!

But, as soon as I get a few minutes, I'll dive in.
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: TechTalk on October 20, 2007, 10:25:19 pm
Quote
I agree.

The future of digital will be about integrating cameras, optics, and software. The Hasselblad H28mm and the next generation of Canon's Raw conversion software demonstrate the point. Once lens designers have integrated software to handle distortion correction they can work miracles with optical performance. Look at the history of Hasselblad's V series 38/40mm lenses; their last lens, the 40mm IF, convincingly outperformed every other V series 38mm and 40mm optic, but it suffers from the worst distortion in their entire V series range (excluding the 30mm fisheye of course). I've never been lucky enough to use the H28mm, but the MTF charts are simply stunning, all because distortion control has moved from being an intractable optical challenge to a simple software chore. But pulling off this trick demands that the software knows the exact subject distance for each shot, hence complete integration of camera, lens and software is key.

In the long run it's another blow for Phase One's Capture One (and Aperture et al); the camera, the optics, and the raw converter need to be one single integrated package from a single supplier.

Once I've gotten over my personal shock as the owner of a P45+ back (which is now a perfectly functional but essentially marooned historical novelty) I think it's a positive and exciting development.

So far the whole digital revolution thing has felt overstated, apart from a few novelties like HDR the really exciting stuff has all been downstream with the editing, which was equally applicable to scanned negatives so not unique to digital capture. But if the future moves to full integration who knows what truly revolutionary digital developments tomorrow might bring? Exciting times, if temporarily uncomfortable for people like myself who've probably backed the wrong horse.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147507\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
A refreshingly thoughtful, well reasoned and forward looking post! Though others are welcome to disagree, I hope to see arguments presented as clearly as yours.

The future is not likely to rely exclusively on the same centuries old methods of optical design that require all corrections to be balanced inside the lens which forces certain types of aberration correction which  needs to be done optically, to compete with corrections that can be made digitally. If medium-format digital has a future, it also is likely to require breaking with the past years mix-and-match generic approach in order to maintain the quality advantage that is required to keep it alive.
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: James Godman on October 20, 2007, 10:34:35 pm
From my experience, what people use in school they use after school.  So I think that one good way to help the HY6 stick is to make the rounds at the schools, get an intelligent person to give a concise and thoughtful demonstration of the product, let students and teachers get some hands on time, show beautiful examples of inspired photography, and then give discounts to the schools.  I got hooked on Sinar at RIT, and I know others did too (and I'm happy about it and still use my f).

Another thing that I remember when I was in the market for a 6008, and helped dissuade a purchase, was that there were very few places to rent them if I had a job where I wanted to rent a few additional bodies or lenses.  Hasselblad was always more visible and available.

Great discussion (mostly).
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: bradleygibson on October 21, 2007, 12:29:13 am
EPd,

Many thanks for the thoughtful reply.  As I mentioned earlier, I have a Japanese wife and co-incidentally have done some business in Japan with Canon and Nikon.  I have a very small insight into Japanese business culture--just enough to know I have no idea what I'm dealing with!

I very much appreciate your insights into the European business culture, or at least our little corner of it.  Things actually make a lot more sense to me when recent events are considered in this light.

Actually I'm not American either and many of the points you raise about the US have me puzzled too.  But that's a whole other discussion...

Anyway, your comments are much appreciated!  I owe you a beer next time you're in Seattle (and my guess is that owing a German a beer is no small thing!)  

Best regards,
Brad
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: TechTalk on October 21, 2007, 12:46:18 am
Quote
The Fujinon lenses for one, but surely you know that the so called "Hasselblad" H system is more a product of Fuji than of the Hasselblad division of Danish based company Hasselblad-Imacon. The body designs are largely or entirely by Fuji, as well as the lenses being all Fujinons.  Hasselblad has not really designed a new product since the 500 series, since the Xpan was essentially a rebranded Fuji product.

In fact, I would roughly describe the H system as a partnership between
- Imacon for the digital parts
- Fuji for the optical parts
- Hasselblad for its prestigious image and its customer support network.

On using the Hasselblad image for marketing non-Hasselblad designs, note that even purely Imacon products like film scanners are now branded as Hasselblad.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147412\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
1) "surely you know that the so called "Hasselblad" H system is more a product of Fuji than of the Hasselblad division of Danish based company Hasselblad-Imacon" On what evidence do you base this wild assertion? Wait, I can tell you... NONE! Hasselblad has invested a great deal of their money, their reaserch and development employees talent and time, their engineering capabilities and production capacity to making the "H" system a reality. That's why Hasselblad makes the decisions and sets the direction for the system and not their manufacturing partners or subcontractors. Hasselblad has been in full control of the "H" system from the beginning, it was developed with the participation of other companies (this is normal for many products–perhaps most products), but the product belongs to Hasselblad.

Is Fuji an important manufacturing partner? Yes, of course they are! Hasselblad has never been an optical manufacturer. They have relied on Kodak, Zeiss, Schneider, Rodenstock and Fuji to produce lenses for their cameras over the past 50+ years. Currently Fuji produces the optical components (lenses and prism finders) and film magazines to Hasselblad's design and/or specification. Hasselblad produces the bodies in Sweden. Hasselblad produces digital backs and scanners in Denmark. By the way, Imacon does not exist anymore. They merged with Hasselblad and if you don't think that they are now functioning as one company, you really have been sleeping in class. Regarding the lenses, did you know that Hasselblad has an optical design staff in Sweden? Did you know that all of the lens specifications and many of the lens designs originated there?

In your fantasy world, Hasselblad is a few guys in Copenhagen filing their nails and taking credit for all of Fuji's hard work by slapping on a label. The reality is far different. There are a few hundred Hasselblad employees doing R&D, engineering, production and all of the other jobs that you would expect and it appears some you knew nothing about.

2) "Hasselblad has not really designed a new product since the 500 series, since the Xpan was essentially a rebranded Fuji product." Now here is where your lack of knowledge truly shines! It's reason enough to pay no attention to anything else that you have to say, as your vendetta with Hasselblad picks up steam. Apparently the entire 2000/200 series of cameras (1977-2004) escaped your attention. The 205 FCC was especially interesting with built-in zone system computer. The Flex and Arc systems don't get your notice either. Also, Hasselblad has been researching, designing and producing products for electronic imaging since the 1980's. Then there is your fantasy that Hasselblad wasn't responsible for the "H" system design. The only thing you seem to be right about is the Xpan, which is indeed a Fuji product.

3) "The body designs are largely or entirely by Fuji" Your evidence of this? None. The "H" system was six years in development with Hasselblad in charge at all times. Do they have partners in the production? Yes, Fuji is one, but not the only one. What are the revenue/cost sharing arrangements? I don't know and neither do you. Obviously part of the agreement with Fuji allows them to sell the H1 camera and a small selection of lenses under the Fuji label in Japan. The only thing that can be derived from that fact is a contractual arrangement. Anything else is idle guess work from a fertile imagination

4) "note that even purely Imacon products like film scanners are now branded as Hasselblad." Of course they are. The two companies merged. The CEO of Hasselblad founded the company that designed and produced the first Imacon scanners (a really outstanding design for desktop scanners. VERY innovative!). Why shouldn't they be marketed under one unified brand name? They're one company. Your point?

5) You don't really seem to get how the modern world of high-tech products works. I'm typing this on an Apple computer. My data is all stored on a drive from Seagate and all of the data is processed by an Intel processor. In your fantasy world, Apple has nothing to do the product and it should be called a Intel-gate computer. In fact, Apple is the company responsible for the product. They work with partners to develop and manufacture products, but they control the design process, make the design decisions for the finished product and it deserves to be considered their product.
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: TechTalk on October 21, 2007, 01:00:03 am
Quote
Understood: in that case my comment is that Fuji is paying most or all of the R&D costs for the non-digital side of the H system, a significant financial contribution even if not money directly into Hasselblad-Imacon's pockets. One possible effect of Fuji's financial resources is the far faster development and release so far of auto-focus lenses than for the Rollei-based systems. Hopefully the broader support of the new Hy6 "team" will help to expand the AF lens selection.
P. S. In case anyone has still missed it,
there is no longer such a company as Hasselblad
and Hasselblad did not take over Imacon, but closer to the reverse. A holding company bought both of them and then merged them into a new company, run by the former Imacon management from the former Imacon offices in Denmark, not the former Hasselblad offices in Sweden.

"Imacon-Hasselblad" would be a more accurate name for this new company.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147434\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
"Fuji is paying most or all of the R&D costs for the non-digital side of the H system" What are you smoking? Can I have some? I'm getting weary of responding to your imagined financial arrangements that you know absolutely nothing about.

And the statement "there is no longer such a company as Hasselblad" is so foolish that it doesn't deserve any response.

There was a merger. They got new management. A money losing company that was about to go under was saved as a result. Don't like their name? Too bad, get over it.
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: TechTalk on October 21, 2007, 01:12:28 am
Quote
The press release about the merger of Imacon with Hasselblad under the common ownership of the Hong Kong based Shriro group is available here:
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0408/04081701...lbladimacon.asp (http://www.dpreview.com/news/0408/04081701hasselbladimacon.asp)
Never mind the inaccurate talk in the paragraph before the press release suggesting that Hasselblad acquired Imacon, (a claim made in numerous other press reports too): the actual press release makes it clear that
- Shriro acquired Imacon, having already acquired Hasselblad
- The Executive Team of the merged Hasselblad-Imacon company is
-- Christian Poulsen, CEO of Hasselblad-Imacon, formerly CEO and founder of Imacon
-- Tom Olesen, the former managing director (2nd in command?) of Imacon
-- Lars Pappila, formerly president and CEO of Hasselblad.

OK, Hassleblad management got one out of three places on the new Executive Team, but Imacon got two including the top spot.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147472\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
This strikes you as news? This is not a revelation. I think that we already know that there was a merger and are aware of the associated details.
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: TechTalk on October 21, 2007, 01:17:49 am
Quote
One starting point for web searching on this topic is the name under which this camera is sold in Japan: The Fujifilm GX645AF Professional.

Here are a couple of mentions in official Fujifilm sites, one in English
http://www.fujifilm.co.uk/about/review/index-imaging.php (http://www.fujifilm.co.uk/about/review/index-imaging.php)
and two in Japanese
http://www.fujifilm.co.jp/news_r/nrj1000.html (http://www.fujifilm.co.jp/news_r/nrj1000.html)
http://fujifilm.jp/personal/filmcamera/med...5af/design.html (http://fujifilm.jp/personal/filmcamera/mediumformat/gx645af/design.html)

Like the last two, a lot of the best information seems to be available only in Japanese, since only is Japan is this camera sold under the Fujiifilm brand name.
Isn't Bernard based in Japan? Any comments Bernard?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147501\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
More incredible revelations, Fuji has had contractual authorization to sell the H1 and a few lenses under the Fuji brand in Japan for about 5 years now. It was announced in 2002 when the H1 first appeared. Thanks for the update.
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: TechTalk on October 21, 2007, 01:57:38 am
Quote
TechTalk,

Like you, I don't condone passing off speculation and rumour as fact, of course, but I feel it would be more helpful to the community to correct any misinformation than simply to dispute it.  Wouldn't you agree?

I'd appreciate it if you (or anyone else for that matter) could shed some like on the nature of the relationship between Fujifilm Corporation and Victor Hasselblad AB in the development of the H-series of cameras.  It's an interesting collaboration which is, for better or for worse, changing the face of the medium format photography industry.

All (factual) insight is most welcome.

Best regards,
Brad
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147487\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The nature of the relationship is what it appears to be. Hasselblad contracts with Fuji to supply a portion of the "H" system. Hasselblad contracts with other companies to provide "H" components as well, but Fuji is obviously the largest manufacturing partner.

The financial details are contractual arrangements between the companies. They're not public and I'm not personally very interested or concerned.

The other thing that is obvious about the "H" system, however, is that whatever course it is on–Hasselblad is the captain of the ship and charting the course. Since investment money tends to dictate where decisions are made, if I was speculating, I'd have to guess that there is a good deal of swedish kronor and danish kroner involved.
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: Dustbak on October 21, 2007, 03:38:24 am
Quote
In the long run it's another blow for Phase One's Capture One (and Aperture et al); the camera, the optics, and the raw converter need to be one single integrated package from a single supplier.


[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147507\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Why do people continue to hammer on this? Yes the communication between the parts need to be optimal and complete. Spec's fully written,etc..

But in now way it absolutely needs to be integrated into 1 single package or being handled by one party. At least not for a smoothly functioning piece of equipment it is not a necessity perse.

How on earth do you think people can develop programs for multiple platforms (like Windows or Mac for instance). Because there are things like API's and SDK's (or simply good documentation of all spec's). All tools to provide 3rd parties with the necessary details to develop add-on products. Why would a camera, lens and digital back be any different in this respect?

Actually this way for the end-user eventually there will be better products and more options, even Microsoft understands this!
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: eronald on October 21, 2007, 03:50:07 am
Quote
How on earth do you think people can develop programs for multiple platforms (like Windows for instance). Because there are things like API's and SDK's (or simply good documentation of all spec's). All tools to provide 3rd parties with the necessary details to develop add-on products. Why would a camera, lens and digital back be any different in this respect?

Actually this way for the end-user eventually there will be better products and more options, even Microsoft understands this!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147559\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You do humor very well

Edmund
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: thsinar on October 21, 2007, 06:58:44 am
While I must agree that this was the case some years ago, that companies in Europe were mainly product driven, Sinar included, I can assure you that today things have changed a lot, also at Sinar. The latest prove is the Sinar Hy6, which has been "coming out" of an intensive and precise market survey.

The marketing part of those products is another thing, and I agree that here "we" European (Swiss) might or do probably not have the right market approach for the US market.

Thierry


Quote
While I have obvious Rollei sympathies (owner of 6003 for 15 years, and 4 Schneider lenses for it) I must agree with the above. The basic issue is that proud European engineering and manufacturing companies are often "product" driven - that is, they produce what they think is needed. They make what they believe is a great product, and it often is just that. They assume the market will respond positively.

This is in contract to "demand" driven companies, which listens to the market, finds their spot, and respond, and changes quickly if there isn't the market response.

This extends to how they respond to marketing - the product driven companies have histrically a rather relaxed notion to marketing, believing in the end, quality will out. The demand driven companies market as if their business depends on it (which it does).

Given deep enough pockets, the product driven companies can exist just fine for a while, but recent history has them either going bust after 10-20 years of this approach (in today's market), or changing their tune (re: Mercedes).

Demand driven companies (and their responsiveness to marketing needs) are all the rage these days. In fact, one might esay a company can't survive without this attention to marketing.

Companies like Apple are an interesting cross between the two - mostly product driven, but with a savvy way of marketing it. Leica and Sinar are of the old guard, and are slowly catching up - Leica moreso. Sinar is, well, not quite there.

I say that as a follower of the brand, as an interested party wanting their best success. But they still struggle, don't quite get how to get American market penetration,a nd are just not a factor in the US. Maybe in Europe moreso, but here, its  alonely day until one sees their products. I hope fervently this changes... for them and for all their supporters and friends. I just don't know how they plan on staying in the game without more aggressive marketing.

A poor exchange rate doesn't help this to be sure, esp. when coupled with high European labor costs. So I don't know the answer, but gee, I'd really like a $15-20k bundle of camera and back. Really. 

Geoff G.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147494\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: Morgan_Moore on October 21, 2007, 07:07:01 am
Quote
intensive and precise market survey.


[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147574\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I believe macdonalds did a survey

Asking thinkgs like 'would you like fruit and salads in our stores?'

everyone said yes but no one bought them once they came to market

I think you need to have your own vision and propel it into the market place

I know what I think your vision should be. I am confused as to what 'yours' is.

S
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: thsinar on October 21, 2007, 10:38:05 am
Dear EPd,

It was a kind of "provocative" remark, since I understand well why it is not yet on there homepage.

That's what I hoped to be answered by somebody, and my guess is that many others have thought it as well.

It is indeed "perfect" marketing! But does it not show also that (some) people can easily find their way through the glitter and shining of a webpage and sort it out by themselves, if you and me have understood it?

That is where "we" see things a bit differently, and it might be part of the gap with our friends in the US, and one of the reasons why our marketing is criticized here in this tread.

I have also much difficulties to understand that one needs "pre-chewed" information for all and everything, and even worse, that all and any kind of information is sometimes "swallowed" without any critical analysis. I have myself always been very critical with all kind of information: but then, I am coming from a country which is "miles" away from the US, being born in France where all and everything is always put in question.

To make things clear, I do not say that we are right and that our marketing does not have to change, but that this is an integrated part of our culture and marketing approach.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Dear Thierry,

As for Hassy and the H2F: the H2F is a bandaid for those who feel fucked by Hassy. It should be mentioned under the label "damage control". But since Hassy does not have a place for that in their communication they will not hurry much to bring this news forward. On the other hand you will find everything about the H3DII on their website. I think it is smart communication: push forward what you want to sell and keep an alternative for the unhappy clients at hand. Just in case champagne and kaviar can no longer keep them quiet.

Best wishes,
EPd
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147449\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: BJL on October 21, 2007, 10:56:32 am
Quote
This strikes you as news? This is not a revelation. I think that we already know that there was a merger and are aware of the associated details.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147544\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I made this post because I had stated that the former Hasselblad has been merged with Imacon, with Imacon providing the management team. Someone disputed that claim, suggesting that Hasselblad was still a separate company. Therefore I provided documentation of my previous statement about the merger, along with one correction: Imacon did not provide all of the management team but only two out of three members, including the CEO.

I do not understand why my providing factual documentation to support my previous statements seems to annoy you.
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: Streetshooter on October 21, 2007, 11:16:54 am
Quote
I made this post because I had stated that the former Hasselblad has been merged with Imacon, with Imacon providing the management team. Someone disputed that claim, suggesting that Hasselblad was still a separate company. Therefore I provided documentation of my previous statement about the merger, along with one correction: Imacon did not provide all of the management team but only two out of three members, including the CEO.

I do not understand why my providing factual documentation to support my previous statements seems to annoy you.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147600\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I always had the impression he worked for Hasselblad !  Maybe that explains his rather over the top responses.
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: thsinar on October 21, 2007, 11:33:44 am
Thanks Sam!

It is your right to think so, but let me tell you that you are completely out of the reality concerning the "fruits and the salads", definitively.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
I believe macdonalds did a survey

Asking thinkgs like 'would you like fruit and salads in our stores?'

everyone said yes but no one bought them once they came to market

I think you need to have your own vision and propel it into the market place

I know what I think your vision should be. I am confused as to what 'yours' is.

S
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147575\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: BJL on October 21, 2007, 12:00:03 pm
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1) "surely you know that the so called "Hasselblad" H system is more a product of Fuji than of the Hasselblad division of Danish based company Hasselblad-Imacon" On what evidence do you base this wild assertion? Wait, I can tell you... NONE!
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=147540\")
I base that on various items I have read including articles in photography magazines, but I do not have all the evidence at hand, and I am open to the possibility of being in error on some points. My understanding is the final assembly is done in the Swedish facilities of Hasselblad-Imacon, but a large portion of the previous steps including design leadership are from Fujifilm.

Since you make a number of specific claims about the leading role of Hasselblad and later Hasselblad-Imacon, can you direct me to your evidence? In particular, do you have any evidence for your apparent belief Fuji 645Fujifilm GX645AF Professional is essentially a licencing of a Hasselblad product, rather than having a substantial contribution from Fujifilm?


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2) "Hasselblad has not really designed a new product since the 500 series, since the Xpan was essentially a rebranded Fuji product."
... Apparently the entire 2000/200 series of cameras (1977-2004) escaped your attention.
... The Flex and Arc systems don't get your notice either.
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My wording is apparently confusing; it would have been better to say that from the Xpan and H series forward, design of Hasselblad branded cameras has been done in partnership with Fujifilm, with the latter having the lead role.

I mentioned the 500 series since I believe that the most recent "pure Hassleblad" or "Hasselblad-lead" designs are the latest products in the 500 series, where development continued after it had stopped on the now discontinued 200 series.  I was not at all suggesting that there has been no Hasselblad-lead innovation since the _start_ of the 500 series; my apologies if it sounded like that.

And I was thinking of the now discontinued Flex and Arc systems loosely as part of the 500 series, though I suppose that is inaccurate in the case of the Arc body, which does not use the same lenses as the 500 series bodies if I recall correctly, while the Flex body does use the same CF lenses.

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Also, Hasselblad has been researching, designing and producing products for electronic imaging since the 1980's. Then there is your fantasy that Hasselblad wasn't responsible for the "H" system design. The only thing you seem to be right about is the Xpan, which is indeed a Fuji product.
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That is interesting: which electronic imaging products are you referring to, beyond adding digital back compatibility to some bodies?

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3) "The body designs are largely or entirely by Fuji" Your evidence of this? None. The "H" system was six years in development with Hasselblad in charge at all times.
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So far we have each stated different opinions on this, with no documentation to back them up. Can you point me to to sources for your claim? Not that I will insist too much or accuse you of errors, lies or mis-information if you cannot; after all I also cannot easily produce citations of all the sources on which my understanding is based.

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4) "note that even purely Imacon products like film scanners are now branded as Hasselblad." Of course they are. The two companies merged. Why shouldn't they be marketed under one unified brand name? They're one company. Your point?
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My point is that although the name of the company producing these scanners is "Hasselblad Imacon", not simply "Hasselblad", and although its management team comes mostly from Imacon suggesting that Imacon is the lead parter in the merger, and though these pruducts come from the Imacon assets of the merger, the product is not branded "Hasselblad Imacon" or "Imacon" but simply "Hasselblad". This is a natural decision given the far greater recognition of the name "Hasselblad", but it indicates that the name "Hasselblad" is being used on products that have no "Hasselblad DNA" in the sense of coming from the resources that the former company Hasselblad contributed to the merged company. From what I have read, a similar thing is happening with the branding of the H system, though with a bit more "Hasselblad DNA" in that case, but with Fujifilm leading the design project.

It would be great to find solid sources on the way this design project actually goes, beyond the vague statement:
Quote
the GX645AF Professional, a 6 x 4.5 format auto-focus SLR camera with interchangeable lenses that was developed in collaboration with Victor Hasselblad AB.
at [a href=\"http://www.fujifilm.co.uk/about/review/index-imaging.php]http://www.fujifilm.co.uk/about/review/index-imaging.php[/url]

I suspect though that in such arrangements, the vagueness is deliberate so that each company can insinuate having a larger role that it actually has. Like the lens design partnerships between Kodak and Schneider Kreuznach, between Sony and Carl Zeiss, between Panasonic and Leica, and between Pentax, Samsung and Schneider Kreuznach. In all those cases I am betting on the Japanese lens producer being the project leader.
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: BJL on October 21, 2007, 12:06:34 pm
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I always had the impression he worked for Hasselblad !  Maybe that explains his rather over the top responses.
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Cynically, maybe the fact that Hasselblad Imacon CEO Christian Poulsen is Imacon's founder explains why the H series is being heavily aligned as a way to sell digital backs. Practically though, it just makes business sense: the digital backs are probably the dominant source of revenue for Hasselblad Imacon, especially given that the lenses are all outsourced.
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: TechTalk on October 21, 2007, 01:30:01 pm
Quote
I made this post because I had stated that the former Hasselblad has been merged with Imacon, with Imacon providing the management team. Someone disputed that claim, suggesting that Hasselblad was still a separate company. Therefore I provided documentation of my previous statement about the merger, along with one correction: Imacon did not provide all of the management team but only two out of three members, including the CEO.

I do not understand why my providing factual documentation to support my previous statements seems to annoy you.
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No one has disputed that Hasselblad and Imacon merged. No one cares if you prove it because everyone knows it. You are the one promoting the weird concept that Hasselblad doesn't exist. Is this supposed to be your proof?

Your "factual documentation" fails to support your "previous statements" that really do annoy me. You won't provide any factual documentation becuase you can't. They're products of your imagination. Your posts make that transparent. You take one piece of general public knowledge, that Fuji manufactures some of the "H" components, and then extrapolate in your imagination things like "more a product of Fuji than of Hasselblad", "The body designs are largely or entirely by Fuj", "Fuji is paying most or all of the R&D costs". Your desire to, in some way, diminish Hasselblad as a company is transparent with gems like "there is no longer such a company as Hasselblad", "Hasselblad has not really designed a new product since the 500 series", "the so called "Hasselblad" H system" and made even more transparent by your insistence on separating Hasselblad and Imacon in your mind (and posts) despite the fact that they have been one single entity for three years–creating your own name for the company "Imacon-Hasselblad" or "Hasselblad-Imacon"  and repeatedly using it, combined with a strange inability to even think of them as working as a team. Oddly, you seem to be unable to bear simply using the name Hasselblad. Your emotions don't seem to allow it. Do you refer to "Cosmo Mamiya", "Scitex Creo Kodak Leaf", or "Jenoptik Sinar"?

You make claims to have knowledge of things that are not in the public domain. You claim to know which company provides funding on specific products. You claim to know whose engineers are doing what work. You apparently either don't believe that Hasselblad has an R&D department or believe their job is to figure out how to stick labels on things. Oh wait, you don't even believe Hasselblad exists anymore!

You know, I'm getting less annoyed and more bored by this nonsense.

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I always had the impression he worked for Hasselblad !  Maybe that explains his rather over the top responses.
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I have never worked for Hasselblad. You think that it is over the top to challenge someone's fantasies presented as fact?

I happen to like discussing facts. But if you prefer impressions, rumor, gossip and speculation–to each his own.
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: Morgan_Moore on October 21, 2007, 01:48:29 pm
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there was a long post here about stuff i tought could be cool on/in the Hy6 (taking the stick from morgan_moore) that did not have much to do about this thread, sorry   

-axel
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The thread is the 'state of MF' not who owns hasselblad !

My assesment of the state of MF

Sinar is the best but in a bit of a muddle with some stuff and the communication/distribution of thier great product

Hassy have a limited system that is excellent in both technical and communication terms

Mamiya make a reasonable product that is a bargain trouble is beig the same price ish as a blow away Canon kit they seem to fall into a strange place in the market

Phase grabbed a stronghold on backs and rental and supply and reputation that will last for a few years yet - thier future is less certain

All MFDB makers are threatened by the superb developments in the DSLR arena but there will always be a place for the greater quality that greater size will always bring

S
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: BJL on October 21, 2007, 03:13:51 pm
I suppose there is little point debating then make since we agree on the main facts about the company being a merger of Imacon and Hasselblad. But abot the name:
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... creating your own name for the company "Imacon-Hasselblad" or "Hasselblad-Imacon"  and repeatedly using it
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=147635\")
I did not create the name "Hasselblad Imacon"; they did. To quote a source I mentioned before, [a href=\"http://www.dpreview.com/news/0408/04081701hasselbladimacon.asp]http://www.dpreview.com/news/0408/04081701...lbladimacon.asp[/url]
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The new company will be called Hasselblad Imacon ...
The Executive Team of the merged Hasselblad Imacon company ...
Though it is often called just "Hasselblad" for short. Then again, "Fujifilm" is often called "Fuji" for short!

And I hope it is clear that I am not basing everything that I said on just the few references that I have given, and that I am not claiming any knowledge not in the public domain. As I already said, my statements are my understanding, probably imperfect, of various public domain sources that I have read over the years, such as discussions of a development agreement between Hasselblad and Fuji that lead to both the Xpan and H products. I do not have all those sources at hand to quote in this discussion, any more than you are citing sources for all your statements, and it is surely not important enough a question for me to search out those references.

I am glad that we seem to agree that the other joint project, the Xpan, also with Fujinon lenses and also marketed under the Fujifilm brand in Japan but under the Hasselblad brand everywhere else, is primarily a Fujifilm product, even though my recollection is that there was little or no mention mention by Hasselblad of Fujifilm's leading role in that system, other than the obvious acknowledgment of the source of the lenses.

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... a strange inability to even think of them as working as a team.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147635\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Actually my exact point is that the H system is the product of team, drawn from the resources of Fujifilm, Hasselblad and Imacon. I was originally answering a question about Fujifilm's financial support of the system. Perhaps the Imacon part of the team is now the major partner because it is the digital backs that generate the majority of the revenue for Hasselblad Imacon.

In fact my guess is that the combining of  technological and financial resources of these three companies has helped greatly to make the H system the dominant MF system of the digital era so far.

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I happen to like discussing facts.
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Me too, so I ask again, can you point to any sources corroborating your view of the situation? You have implied that all you say is based on information in the public domain.
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: Geoffrey on October 21, 2007, 03:37:15 pm
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Thierry,

I'd like to put some thought into what you are saying here. Not only do I think the Sinar approach will not work very effectively for the US market (we can both understand why and will probably agree), but I also have a strong sense that the current approach isn't going to work in Europe as well. Look at the Hy6 communication campaign as it is right now, designed by a southern German marketing company (speaking about traditional thinking). It looks like a Siemens Green Energy ad, solely targeted at German customers! Who the hell at Sinar thought this was a good idea? Why not ask a London or Amsterdam based agency? From internationally oriented countries with worldwide trade in their DNA. To me the choice of the Munich agency is showing that Sinar has to go a very, very long way before it really understands what needs to change. My main advice for Sinar would be: stop looking inside and start looking to the world outside. Freud and Jung are already dead sometime now.

Best regards,
EPd
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agreed.
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: TechTalk on October 21, 2007, 05:23:10 pm
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Also, Hasselblad has been researching, designing and producing products for electronic imaging since the 1980's. [{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=147540\")


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That is interesting: which electronic imaging products are you referring to, beyond adding digital back compatibility to some bodies?
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The subsidary company "Hasselblad Electronic Imaging AB" was formed in 1985 to research, develop and manufacture digital imaging and transmission systems. The products they produced in the 1980's and 1990's were primarily used in the journalism (image scanning and transmission equipment for newspapers) and medical fields (scanning specimen images). Notable products from this period would be the Hasselblad Dixel scanner and modem systems for scanning and transmitting images. Hasselblad received patents on these devices.  [a href=\"http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/4717966-description.html]U.S. Patent #4717966 Link[/url]  U.S. Patent #4891693 (http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/4891693-claims.html)  Patent Ref. #2 Link (http://xrint.com/patents/us/4891693) Also there were software programs like ImageDepot and ImageTuner for newspaper picture desk editors  See Hasselblad "Electronic Links" Section (http://www.iconpublications.com/photon/hasselblad/hasselblad.html)  See Item #26 in Link (http://www.colepapers.net/tcp.archive/cole_papers_91-94/TCP9206.html)

The subsidary was sold off in 1997 as Hasselblad focused their attention on the research and development of the "H" camera system. Capital realized from the sale was invested in the new "H" project.

Sorry, I know that you don't want to think about Hasselblad actually doing anything but marketing an image.
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: TechTalk on October 21, 2007, 06:59:04 pm
BJL,

I'm bored and weary of this game. I suspect others are too. If you choose to post your assumptions regarding the financial and R&D relationships between Hasselblad and Fuji, have at it. If readers want to believe it based on your memory of "various items I have read including articles in photography magazines" and your "understanding", then they can believe what ever they would like to believe (as you do).

In a nutshell, what you are asking people to believe is that "Fuji is paying most or all of the R&D costs for the non-digital side of the H system" and that Fuji does nearly all of the manufacturing of the "H" system, and that despite Fuji carrying nearly all of the financial burden for R&D and manufacture, they give decision making authority to Hasselblad to discontinue the H1 and H2, replace the H2 with the more limited appeal H2F, to limit the use of the 28mm lens to the H3D and focus on selling a smaller volume of "H" systems that are integrated with Hasselblad's digital backs! Please explain the logic of this scenario! In the high-tech business world that I know, the company providing the investment, capital, resources and R&D calls the shots. With all of this investment, lead design work, R&D and Hasselblad being just a marketing device, why doesn't Fuji just sell the H1 body themselves–now that Hasselblad is no longer doing so?

In your view, Fuji pays nearly all of the costs, does all of the R&D, does all of the essential manufacturing and in return all they want is the right to sell a limited version of the system in Japan! Hey, I want to be a business partner with Fuji! You expect me to believe that they will pay all of the costs and do all of the work, while I collect the money and the brand recognition! They must not know anything about business and have business lawyers with collective brains the size of a pea!

The relationship that you have presented makes NO business sense, defies common sense and is devoid of any logic or reason. But then again, you do recall reading about in a magazine somewhere, though you are "open to the possibility of being in error on some points". What a waste of time. I'm done.

As for me, I'm NOT digging up documentation on Fuji or Hasselblad's financing, R&D or production of the "H" system. I don't have any and neither do you and never have. I have, however, visited Hasselblad facilities in Scandinavia in the course of business (NO, I've never been a Hasselblad employee), I've seen the R&D departments and talked with engineers and talked with the CEO on a few occasions (a very interesting and intelligent guy to talk to). I'm satisfied that they are a very creative, industrious and smart group of people. They are hardly sitting back and relaxing with the "H" system while Fuji pays all the bills and does all the work–despite your illogical assumptions.

Just so you can be factual in the future on at least ONE thing, despite your attachment to that DP Review article's mistake, there is NO "Hasselblad-Imacon" company. Imacon was simply folded into the umbrella of the existing Hasselblad structure and use of the Imacon name disappeared. For the record the complete and correct corporate names are: Victor Hasselblad AB (Sweden), Hasselblad A/S (Denmark) (formerly Imacon before merger), Hasselblad USA Inc., Hasselblad Vertriebsgesellschaft mbH (Germany), Hasselblad (UK) Ltd and Hasselblad France SAS.

Have at it. I'm done with this silly game.
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: Photomangreg on October 21, 2007, 07:25:00 pm
Quote
I did not create the name "Hasselblad Imacon"; they did. To quote a source I mentioned before, http://www.dpreview.com/news/0408/04081701...lbladimacon.asp (http://www.dpreview.com/news/0408/04081701hasselbladimacon.asp)

Though it is often called just "Hasselblad" for short. Then again, "Fujifilm" is often called "Fuji" for short!


[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147651\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I believe you are misreading the DP review quote "The Executive Team of the merged Hasselblad Imacon company", and that is understandable as DP review erronously says "The new company will be called Hasselblad Imacon and will be clearly targeting the professional digital market. "  The company is Victor Hasselblad A/S, that is the name they are filed under in DK.  

As for Fujifilm, that name changed from Fuji Photo Film Co. Inc. in 2006
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: paulhu on October 21, 2007, 10:00:31 pm
Following are some excerpts from a November 2002 article in www.photo.net by Michael Reichmann regarding the introduction of Hasselblad H1:

So Who Makes The H1?

A lot has been made by some people about the fact that H1 is the result of a joint venture between Hasselblad and Fuji. I asked one of the Hasselblad reps about the details of this partnership. Hasselblad conceived the H1 camera system and lenses and was responsible for their design, including the specification of the lenses. The unique new shutters that are in the lenses, and the camera body itself are also built by Hasselblad in Sweden, while the lenses, meter prism and film backs are built by Fuji.

The project began in 1997, and was committed by 1999, with a projected late 2002 launch date. The entire project has cost Hasselblad approximately $35 million, which must represent a major component of the company’s anticipated sales and revenues.

In this era of the globalization, an arrangement where a company designs a product and then finds the best engineering and manufacturing resources, regardless of where in the world they may be located, makes perfect sense. Many companies market products that have components made in one country, designed in a second, and assembled in a third. So why not Hasselblad? As long as the design (the gestalt) of the camera remains true to form, I see no harm, and in fact there are many potential benefits from bringing more fertile minds to bear than can be found in one company. My brief time with the H1 shows it to have the full Hasselblad DNA and to be a worthy member of the Hasselblad family.


Hope this can clear up some confusion.
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: Photomangreg on October 21, 2007, 10:03:18 pm
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Following are some excerpts from a November 2002 article in www.photo.net by Michael Reichmann regarding the introduction of Hasselblad H1:


[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147715\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Nice digging!
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: AndreNapier on October 21, 2007, 11:32:08 pm
I really do not think that dipping any deeper into the Hassy/Fuji/Imacon argument will bring any of us photographers a single grain of benefit.
I had the pleasure few months ago to spend several hours in meeting with Christian Poulsen and brainstorm his visions and ideas for future of Hasselblad. We may or may not principally agree of a lot of issues but one thing is very certain for me, Hasselblad has very bright and strong leadership with full conviction of chosen directions. Hasselblad is light years ahead with their plans to keep the leading position in MFD market. Any contenders will face the same hardship as other DSLR's companies trying to beat Canon at their game.

For Sinar and Rollei goes my deepest sympathy and the best wishes for future. I love Rollei glass and so much wish to see them succeed.
As I stated before: new approach to advertising is the key in the fight with bigger and stronger contender.
For the past twenty years I am in business of making business. My main interest is development of start up operation in connection with real estate developments in Eastern Europe. What it mean in reality is that we take what nobody wants and turn it through creative marketing into desire investment. I do not claim to be a marketing expert but in 20 years real live experience I consistently outscore national averages in investment returns.
Here in short is my approach and couple of tips for Sinar:
When we look at a project we ask ourself a question of the amount of our resources and where we want to be in 3 to 5 years after the investment. We understand that success of our project are based on creating a demand and thus for we allocate huge portion of the budget for creating positive image of the product. Secondly we understand the importance of instant availabillities and
product visibilities. Thirdly we target one market at a time with all available resources.  
The best advertising for medical product will do nothing if it is available in every Walgreens in USA. Same goes for Sinar : as long as every renting house in USA ins not going to have your product available for rent, there is no chance to excel. If they do not want to purchase it offer it at your base cost without investment appreciation. Put your cameras in the hands of the loudest and most visible players for free. Do not expect Tiger Woods to pay for his clubs. Create a positive buzz in editorial world and make yourself visible in all printed photo medias with recognizable industry leaders. Most importantly look far ahead and do not worry if your initial marketing put you in the red in the first to years of new venture.
Andre
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: TechTalk on October 21, 2007, 11:47:21 pm
For the truly obsessed or very curious folks...

Question: Who developed the electronics and software for the H1?

Answer: Hasselblad contracted a Swedish company, Teleca Systems AB for the job.

Teleca / Hasselblad Link (http://news.cision.com/wpyfs/00/00/00/00/00/02/F7/99/09240074.htm)    Teleca Link #2 (http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:99wp34HbTFkJ:www.teleca.com/PSUser/mediacache/1392/1655/1656/Orbit20031_eng.pdf+hasselblad+h1+R%26D&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=49&gl=us) (Page #20 at the bottom)

And the answer for the bonus round question... The auto-focus system and focusing screen came from Minolta (now Sony).
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: TechTalk on October 21, 2007, 11:55:38 pm
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I really do not think that dipping any deeper into the Hassy/Fuji/Imacon argument will bring any of us photographers a single grain of benefit.

Andre
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Sorry Andre. I think that you're absolutely right. I'm done.

I'm glad that you had a chance to speak with Christian. Very interesting guy! As for Hasselblad's future and the survival of medium-format digital (more in line with the original intent of this thread), it's worth noting that they have been profitable the last few years. Somebody has to make money, making medium-format systems, or it will all fade away.
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: AndreNapier on October 22, 2007, 12:36:26 am
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... it's worth noting that they have been profitable the last few years. Somebody has to make money, making medium-format systems, or it will all fade away.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147740\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Not only that Hassy is profitable ( thanks to new brilliant marketing strategy) they also manage to overcome horrible initial reception of H cameras. We all remember the dentists jokes and the fact that you could not open any forum without seeing majority of people spilling their guts about the bad bokeh even if they did not know what it really means. It was a very hard task but they manuver marvelously and highly deserve to cash on it now.
....Did I mention that hassy lenses have no mojo. LOL>
Andre
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: TechTalk on October 22, 2007, 03:19:27 am
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Not only that Hassy is profitable ( thanks to new brilliant marketing strategy) they also manage to overcome horrible initial reception of H cameras. We all remember the dentists jokes and the fact that you could not open any forum without seeing majority of people spilling their guts about the bad bokeh even if they did not know what it really means. It was a very hard task but they manuver marvelously and highly deserve to cash on it now.
....Did I mention that hassy lenses have no mojo. LOL>
Andre
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=147743\")
Hasselblad, in my opinion, has done both a poor job and a good job in marketing. I think they have done a poor job of explaining and marketing their technology advantages. They've done a pretty good job in the image/branding area of their marketing.

One of the best image marketing tools that I've seen is the Victor magazine. They are super glossy, over-sized and extremely high quality magazines in six languages. They also charge a lot of money for them! Each magazine has creative shooting sessions profiled and a video of each shoot is posted online. The most recent issue has a knockout Betty Page look model. For the Betty Page fans, the video is here...  [a href=\"http://www.victorbyhasselblad.com/english/victor%2Dvideo.aspx]Betty H. Page Video Link[/url]
Title: The state of MFDB
Post by: thsinar on October 22, 2007, 10:25:47 am
I DID, make a sticky, Thansk EPd!

I just wish to add a little precision which is important for me: yes, there is an independent firm in Switzerland producing the electronics of the Hy6. However, the founder was a Sinar employee when we developped and designed the Sinar m.

Best regards,
Thierry

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- An independent electronics firm in Switzerland, which also designed the Sinar m electronics, designed and produces the electronic circuitry of the Hy6 AFi;

Now if someone could make this a sticky message, I would be much obliged.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147498\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]