Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: AndreNapier on October 18, 2007, 01:34:43 pm
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I will repeat my question since it originally fell on deaf ears:
Now that we have the prices for AFi posted when can we expect a list of upgrade paths for current owners of Leaf products. If LEAF wants me and others to switch to AFi and abandon the H mount they better come with something very logical here. It has been only two months since we upgraded to 75s. Leaf needs to put their new cameras in hands of real shutters and existing clients to post positive reviews before others will jump into the system with their $50,000 investments. To me it is only logical step in current economical situation but then again logic and MFD do not often go hand and hand.
http://AndreNapier.com (http://AndreNapier.com)
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I will repeat my question since it originally fell on deaf ears:
Now that we have the prices for AFi posted when can we expect a list of upgrade paths for current owners of Leaf products. If LEAF wants me and others to switch to AFi and abandon the H mount they better come with something very logical here. It has been only two months since we upgraded to 75s. Leaf needs to put their new cameras in hands of real shutters and existing clients to post positive reviews before others will jump into the system with their $50,000 investments. To me it is only logical step in current economical situation but then again logic and MFD do not often go hand and hand.
http://AndreNapier.com (http://AndreNapier.com)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146978\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
i ask the question this morning at the photoplusexpo show here in ny and was told it is currently under discussion....and hopefully we will be given an answer soon.
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I'm sure most Sinar users would be interested to know this too.
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I'm sure most Sinar users would be interested to know this too.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147004\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
With Sinar it is less of an issue since it is only the change of an interface plate.
I am pretty sure one of the promo's in the near future quarters for Sinar or Sinar Bron (sometimes the promos are different) will be an H camera trade in of some sort. It only makes sense ....
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my dealer in Singapore said that they'll be offering a trade-in promotion...didn't mention if there'll be a fee involved.
so maybe it'll be the same in US
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One would think that there was plenty of time ( between starting the camera concept and the posting of prices for new units ) to think of strategies for upgrades.
andre
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One would think that there was plenty of time ( between starting the camera concept and the posting of prices for new units ) to think of strategies for upgrades.
andre
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147021\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I agree with you: unfortunately more and more of what happens these days is "MIUAWG"
(make it up as we go!)
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Initial Products:
• AFi Body with W/L Finder (AFi Body with W/L Finder can only be purchased by customers already investing in a Leaf AFi System. Proof of previous purchase is required.) - $5,995
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146451\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I hope this isn't true because Hasselblad would look like angels.....
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It has been only two months since we upgraded to 75s.
http://AndreNapier.com (http://AndreNapier.com)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146978\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hey Andre, Probably why nobody heard your question was being caught between 'Don't buy Hy6/AFi' and the Russel/Tucker 'Abandon LL for a week' post mortum. Since the Leaf 's' upgrade promotion was $3,000US and the regular price is $6,000US, my guess is Leaf will happily take your A75s and give you an AFi7 for $15kUS on this go-around. They may or may not throw in a prism finder but the lens would be an additional cost to you. I would be sucking eggs, of course, because I'm still shooting with an irrelevant A75. I also have the dilema of dumping a discontinued/outdated H1 and the mediocre (H) fuji glass. I may as well hang on until Leaf comes out with the AFi8 so I can really get screwed. God, I hate myself! I'll let you know what the Leaf 'promotion' is from my local dealer on the 29th. David
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There is no need to upgrade for exisiting Sinarback users wishing to use the Sinar Hy6 camera: all one has to do is to change the adapter plate, with the exception of the SB 54H for which an evaluation is in process.
However, there is currently a trade-in promotion running since June '07 and until October 31st (lickely prolounged): for those who wish to buy a "Sinar Hy6 - e75" system, Sinar will take back their current MF camera (incl. one lens and viewfinder). For details consult your local distributor.
Best regards,
Thierry
I'm sure most Sinar users would be interested to know this too.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147004\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I hope this isn't true because Hasselblad would look like angels.....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147055\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That is the current policy in the U.S. as any Leaf dealer can confirm.
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Samuel, did you not read this post of mine?
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....ndpost&p=146794 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=20320&view=findpost&p=146794)
You could go with a Sinar branded Hy6 and put the Leaf on it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147075\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The Leaf AFi back is only listed in the U.S. as a back and camera body bundle. There is also a different battery for the Leaf AFi than the Rollei/Sinar Hy6.
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I also have the dilema of dumping a discontinued/outdated H1 and the mediocre (H) fuji glass.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147060\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The Hasselblad designed and Fuji produced "H" lenses are extremely fine lenses. The MTF charts are readily available for all of the lenses and are the standard for qaulity that all of the "H" lenses must meet.
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Leaf has been offering free AFi mount changes to purchasers of Leaf Aptus backs purchased after March, 2007.
At this point, my best guess would be that an existing Aptus user who purchased before that date could do a mount switch to Leaf AFi (when they become available) for $2,099 (their normal fee) from whatever mount they currently have (as these mounts become available).
I'm at PhotoExpo this week and will confirm this as much as I can tomorrow (Friday).
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
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I would never pay $2000 to switch mounts for that kind of money, just to buy a Leaf camera. If they want to sell camera's and make the system work they better think about offering free mounts changes with camera purchase.
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I also have the dilema of dumping a discontinued/outdated H1 and the mediocre (H) fuji glass.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147060\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Just compare this "outdated" camera to whatever you want and you'll find it's not that outdated.
About the "mediocre" fuji glass I just can say the same; Compare it to whatever you want. The only Fuji H I don't like is the zooms bokeh. The rest is top quality.
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I also have the dilema of dumping a discontinued/outdated H1 and the mediocre (H) fuji glass.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147060\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Tell the magazine publisher that this shot was captured by a mediocre Fuji glass.
[attachment=3609:attachment]
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Is there a new design for battery on AFi7 or is it the same as on A75s?
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Tell the magazine publisher that this shot was captured by a mediocre Fuji glass.
[attachment=3609:attachment]
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147169\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Not to worry. I like my H1 and the 35,50,50-110,80,100,300,1.7x glass. Just having fun with some of the H bashers on the forum (not including Andre). I'm as interested in the Hy7/AFi as anyone. It does seem like Sinar has a more seamless migration path to the upgrade. And when will either Sinar or Leaf have a single battery solution?
David
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Nice shot, Paul, but I still don't like the H glass.
Edmund
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Nice shot, Paul, but I still don't like the H glass.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147247\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
What exactly that you don't like?
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What exactly that you don't like?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147274\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Some guys know how to make it work, but in all the test shots I have taken I got very harsh skin texture.
Edmund
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Deleted.
I deleted my post as I realize it has nothing to do with the topic on hand. Sorry for being impulsive.
Andre
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Some guys know how to make it work, but in all the test shots I have taken I got very harsh skin texture.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147275\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
If you feel the lens is too sharp, it's fairly easy to make images softer.
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Deleted.
I deleted my post.
Andre
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147295\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Ok, back to the topic at hand. When I get to the AFi debut in Northern California on the afternoon of the 29th I'll sign you up as a seminar attendee and put the grab on any coupons for the special event pricing for you. How many of these things do you want ?
David
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Ok, so it's not a sign-in event and there are no coupons, not even an AFi bundled door prize. The "Event Offering " should last about 3 months. Evidently the west coast Leaf Rep should be getting his demo unit this week. Looks like the New York show had no news but a look-see. I'll let you know what the offering is on the 29th, if we haven't all heard it long before then.
David
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Well I am currently pondering an upgrade path myself. I currently own an aptus 22 (6 months old) and a 555 eld with four lenses.
I keep getting editorial assignments where I require auto-focus plus on-camera-flash. I was considering getting a second camera (5d). But have decided to re-invest and a get a camera system that can manage all of my assignments.
My leaf dealer wants to charge me A$10,000.00 to upgrade my near new aptus 22 to an afi 54s. And then to purchase a leaf afi with a 50 and 80 lens, I am looking at an additional of A$20,000 to upgrade my system (A$30,000. total). This is also two lenses short of my current arsenal of lenses (40mm, 50mm, 80mm, 150mm).
On the other-hand instead of paying $10,000 to upgrade my near new digital back, I could receive A10,000.00 from Hasselblad on a trade in, and buy a camera with competitively priced lenses.
I am very happy with the files I get, but saving $15,000 by jumping ship is sounding attractive. I really wish leaf had more attractive upgrade paths, or I wouldn't have to even consider.
Hasselblad also offers A$20,000 trade-in for Hasselblad backs. Where Leaf charges users to upgrade their existing backs making future upgrades sounding much less painful.
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Well I am currently pondering an upgrade path myself. I currently own an aptus 22 (6 months old) a 555 eld with four lenses.
I keep getting editorial assignments where I require auto-focus plus on-camera-flash. I was considering getting a second camera (5d). But have decided to re-invest and a get a camera system that can manage all of my assignments.
My leaf dealer wants to charge me A$10,000.00 to upgrade my near new aptus 22 to an afi 54s. And then to purchase a leaf afi with a 50 and 80 lens, I am looking at an additional of A$20,000 to upgrade my system (A$30,000. total). This is also two lenses short of my current arsenal of lenses (40mm, 50mm, 80mm, 150mm).
On the other-hand instead of paying $10,000 to upgrade my near new digital back, I could receive A10,000.00 from Hasselblad on a trade in, and buy a camera with competitively priced lenses.
I am very happy with the files I get, but saving $15,000 by jumping ship is sounding attractive. I really wish leaf had more attractive upgrade paths, or I wouldn't have to even consider.
Hasselblad also offers A$20,000 trade-in for Hasselblad backs. Where Leaf charges users to upgrade their existing backs making future upgrades sounding much less painful.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149940\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi Tom
The one thing to consider with both systems is speed. The new 54s (http://www.leaf-photography.com/ShowDoc.asp?MenuID=325&ParentMenuID=316) will shoot at .87 f/s. The H3DII 22mp will shoot at 1.4 f/s. I currently rent the Aptus 22 and besides file quality both of us (M&C) need that extra speed for people. For some photographers this is not an issue. For example I was using an Aptus 65 a few weeks while the Aptus 22 was being shipped in. I found it too slow & was affecting my shoot & its frame rate (Aptus 65 ) is 1.5 f/s. When I shot with the Aptus 22 we were back to normal @ 1.2 f/s. For speed this is where Leaf/Sinar have it over Hasselblad/Phase. The reason being the Dalsa chip vrs the Kodax chip.
Denis
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The Aptus 22 recycles at about the same speed that my 555eld's motor drive advances. I have been shooting valeo and aptus for the last 3.5 years and am used to the 1.2 second delay. I am wondering if I would even notice a .2 second time difference between the H3D and Aptus. Although only a demo will tell and as you mention I might hate that. I wouldn't be in this dilemma if Leaf offered an upgrade path that was relative to it's competitors. Very disappointing, a $15,000 difference in pricing may be just too much to stomach for an upgrade. One manufacturer wants to give me 10 grand to upgrade to their system, and the company who I have purchased two backs from in 3.5 years wants me to pay them 10 grand to upgrade.
Hi Tom
The one thing to consider with both systems is speed. The new 54s (http://www.leaf-photography.com/ShowDoc.asp?MenuID=325&ParentMenuID=316) will shoot at .87 f/s. The H3DII 22mp will shoot at 1.4 f/s. I currently rent the Aptus 22 and besides file quality both of us (M&C) need that extra speed for people. For some photographers this is not an issue. For example I was using an Aptus 65 a few weeks while the Aptus 22 was being shipped in. I found it too slow & was affecting my shoot & its frame rate (Aptus 65 ) is 1.5 f/s. When I shot with the Aptus 22 we were back to normal @ 1.2 f/s. For speed this is where Leaf/Sinar have it over Hasselblad/Phase. The reason being the Dalsa chip vrs the Kodax chip.
Denis
Well I am currently pondering an upgrade path myself. I currently own an aptus 22 (6 months old) a 555 eld with four lenses.
I keep getting editorial assignments where I require auto-focus plus on-camera-flash. I was considering getting a second camera (5d). But have decided to re-invest and a get a camera system that can manage all of my assignments.
My leaf dealer wants to charge me A$10,000.00 to upgrade my near new aptus 22 to an afi 54s. And then to purchase a leaf afi with a 50 and 80 lens, I am looking at an additional of A$20,000 to upgrade my system (A$30,000. total). This is also two lenses short of my current arsenal of lenses (40mm, 50mm, 80mm, 150mm).
On the other-hand instead of paying $10,000 to upgrade my near new digital back, I could receive A10,000.00 from Hasselblad on a trade in, and buy a camera with competitively priced lenses.
I am very happy with the files I get, but saving $15,000 by jumping ship is sounding attractive. I really wish leaf had more attractive upgrade paths, or I wouldn't have to even consider.
Hasselblad also offers A$20,000 trade-in for Hasselblad backs. Where Leaf charges users to upgrade their existing backs making future upgrades sounding much less painful.
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Well I am currently pondering an upgrade path myself. I currently own an aptus 22 (6 months old) and a 555 eld with four lenses.
My leaf dealer wants to charge me A$10,000.00 to upgrade my near new aptus 22 to an afi 54s. And then to purchase a leaf afi with a 50 and 80 lens,[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149940\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
So that is $10000 for a mount change and staying at 22mp
I take it you are happy with your A22
While I cant divulge sinar pricing my last upgrade E22 to 54LV was less than half of that
With phase a mount change would be free
Leaf are not with the program or you need to pressure your dealer
Mount chage to go with the new body should be FREE - to get you into thier platform and heap of lenses
disgraceful
S
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The problem is, is that you cannot put an Aptus 22 on to an AFI, you have to upgrade your back to the AFI equivalent of the 54S (Aptus 22 with fw 800)
So that is $10000 for a mount change and staying at 22mp
I take it you are happy with your A22
While I cant divulge sinar pricing my last upgrade E22 to 54LV was less than half of that
With phase a mount change would be free
Leaf are not with the program or you need to pressure your dealer
Mount chage to go with the new body should be FREE - to get you into thier platform and heap of lenses
disgraceful
S
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150013\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I will repeat my question since it originally fell on deaf ears:
Now that we have the prices for AFi posted when can we expect a list of upgrade paths for current owners of Leaf products. If LEAF wants me and others to switch to AFi and abandon the H mount they better come with something very logical here. It has been only two months since we upgraded to 75s. Leaf needs to put their new cameras in hands of real shutters and existing clients to post positive reviews before others will jump into the system with their $50,000 investments. To me it is only logical step in current economical situation but then again logic and MFD do not often go hand and hand.
http://AndreNapier.com (http://AndreNapier.com)
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=146978\")
Well, have I missed something???
It is a middle of January 2008 and I still have not heard anything about upgrades. Is 75S the end of the road for Aptus users? I STRONGLY BELIEVE IT IS TIME FOR LEAF TO SAY SOMETHING EITHER WAY. WE HAVE BEEN VERY UNDERSTANDING FOR A LONG TIME.
[a href=\"http://Andrenapier.com]http://Andrenapier.com[/url]
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Well, have I missed something???
It is a middle of January 2008 and I still have not heard anything about upgrades. Is 75S the end of the road for Aptus users? I STRONGLY BELIEVE IT IS TIME FOR LEAF TO SAY SOMETHING EITHER WAY. WE HAVE BEEN VERY UNDERSTANDING FOR A LONG TIME.
http://Andrenapier.com (http://Andrenapier.com)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=167111\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
To my knowledge there would be no sanctioned Leaf upgrade path to the AFi for current Aptus back users. That would probably not preclude local dealers from taking an Aptus back in-trade, but some dealers may be offering their own Hassey and Leaf inventory before taking on "new", used backs. My understanding is that the Leaf AFi promotion includes one (1) additional year warranty, bringing the total AFi warranty period to two (2) years. The price of the AFi kit from your dealer does include the 80mm glass. Though it is better to buy a Leaf back locally, if you are looking for fair pricing on an AFi, I would recommend Keeble & Shuchat Photography in northern California. No sales tax on units shipped from California. You would contact Don or Mary at (650) 327-8511. Forgive me, I like to plug my dealer.
Best,
David
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Well, have I missed something???
It is a middle of January 2008 and I still have not heard anything about upgrades. Is 75S the end of the road for Aptus users? I STRONGLY BELIEVE IT IS TIME FOR LEAF TO SAY SOMETHING EITHER WAY. WE HAVE BEEN VERY UNDERSTANDING FOR A LONG TIME.
http://Andrenapier.com (http://Andrenapier.com)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=167111\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Andre,
I just received a current trade in promo sheet from Leaf towards the AFi7.
You would receive the following dollar values for you back towards the purchase of an AFi7.
Aptus 75s $14,430
Aptus 65s $6430
Aptus 54s $10,430
Aptus 75 $13,000
Aptus 65 $6000
Aptus 22 / Valeo 22 $8270
Matt LaPointe
Dodd Camera - Chicago
(219) 670-9905
mlapointe@doddcamera.com
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Matt,
If the above numbers are correct ( and after selling the basic h1/h2 kit for $3,300 ) it will translate to paying about $17,000 for switching from basic H1 to basic AFI or about $11,000 for switching the mount on practically the same back. I can already see the waiting list forming on this deal.
I hope it is not called camera promotion nor trying to get Hasselblad share of the market.
As a loyal Leaf user I have to say that I am shocked and very concerned. I would say I PASS and reconsider my options.
Http://AndreNapier.com (http://Http://AndreNapier.com)
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Well then, what is the M$RP for an AFi7?
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Initial Products:
• Leaf AFi 7 (Body, Back, W.L Finder) - $35,995
• AFi Body with W/L Finder (AFi Body with W/L Finder can only be purchased by customers already investing in a Leaf AFi System. Proof of previous purchase is required.) - $5,995
• Super Angulon 50 2.8 AFD HFT PQs - $5,142
• Xenotar 80 2.8 AFD PQs - $3,098
• Tele-Xenar 180 2.8 AFD PQ - $5,864
• 60-140 Variogon AFD PQS - $6,916
Products To Follow:
• Leaf AFi 5 (Body, Back, W.L Finder) - $27,995
• Leaf AFi 6 (Body, Back, W.L Finder) - $25,995
• 90 degree Prism Finder - $1,341
• Tele-Xenar 150 4 AFD HFT PQS - Price To Be Announced
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146451\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Up my numbers by $3000. I did not notice originally that the package does not include lens.
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Thank you, Andre.
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$35,995 +
$ 3,098=
$39,093
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$14,430 =
$ 24,663
This seems as the deal
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Matt,
If the above numbers are correct ( and after selling the basic h1/h2 kit for $3,300 ) it will translate to paying about $17,000 for switching from basic H1 to basic AFI or about $11,000 for switching the mount on practically the same back. I can already see the waiting list forming on this deal.
I hope it is not called camera promotion nor trying to get Hasselblad share of the market.
As a loyal Leaf user I have to say that I am shocked and very concerned. I would say I PASS and reconsider my options.
Http://AndreNapier.com (http://Http://AndreNapier.com)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=167142\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Andre,
Don't kill the messenger! You asked the question and I am just presenting the information given to me by Leaf. Obviously I do not have any control of their promotions or business choices.
Matt LaPointe
Dodd Camera Chicago
(219) 670-995
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I got a quote from the Russian dealer:
Sinar Hy6-e75 - 29 500 EUR
Sinar Hy6-e54 - 25 000EUR
Sinar Hy6-m54 - 12 000 EUR
Sinar Hy6 body - 4300 EUR
Leaf AFi 75s - 35 695 EUR
Leaf AFi 54s - 27 495 EUR
Leaf AFi 65s - 25 995 EUR
Huge difference!
Yevgeny
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$35,995 +
$ 3,098=
$39,093
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$14,430 =
$ 24,663
This seems as the deal
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=167148\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Andre,
Leaf is on your side.
Your numbers are incorrect: Try this deal:
$35,995 AFi7 includes WLF and 80mm lens
-3,599 10% Dealer Discount
-14,430 Turn in your A75s
-3,300 Sell your H1 on eBay
$14,666 Your price for an Afi7 with WLF and 80mm Lens.
Heck, you can pay for this on one good shooting day, You're in there!
The MAP (Manufacturers Authorized Price) for the AFi is $35,995, as TechTalk stated some months ago. This price includes the 80mm Lens. No dealer can advertise below MAP. However, any dealer can sell below MAP to an end-user. Whatever happened to TechTalk, anyway? I was afraid he may have morphed into Ray.
David
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I thought MAP translated into "Minimum Advertised Price", no?
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I got a quote from the Russian dealer:
Sinar Hy6-e75 - 29 500 EUR
Sinar Hy6-e54 - 25 000EUR
Sinar Hy6-m54 - 12 000 EUR
Sinar Hy6 body - 4300 EUR
Leaf AFi 75s - 35 695 EUR
Leaf AFi 54s - 27 495 EUR
Leaf AFi 65s - 25 995 EUR
Huge difference!
Yevgeny
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=167151\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The problem is the yellow cast on the Sinar file. I'd rather have the red cast on the Leaf file and LC11. Thank you!
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I thought MAP translated into "Minimum Advertised Price", no?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=167155\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I plead no contest.
David
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The problem is the yellow cast on the Sinar file. I'd rather have the red cast on the Leaf file and LC11. Thank you!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=167156\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
????
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hi David,
Same as Rainer: ???
Bets regards,
Thierry
The problem is the yellow cast on the Sinar file. I'd rather have the red cast on the Leaf file and LC11. Thank you!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=167156\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Andre,
Leaf is on your side.
Your numbers are incorrect: Try this deal:
$35,995 AFi7 includes WLF and 80mm lens
-3,599 10% Dealer Discount
-14,430 Turn in your A75s
-3,300 Sell your H1 on eBay
$14,666 Your price for an Afi7 with WLF and 80mm Lens.
Heck, you can pay for this on one good shooting day, You're in there!
The MAP (Manufacturers Authorized Price) for the AFi is $35,995, as TechTalk stated some months ago. This price includes the 80mm Lens. No dealer can advertise below MAP. However, any dealer can sell below MAP to an end-user. Whatever happened to TechTalk, anyway? I was afraid he may have morphed into Ray.
David
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=167154\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Amen to that.
I guess you also have H lenses to sell, and if you want the GOOD old Schneider with aperture ring and manuel focus which is a dream with WL then you are talking really cheap lenses.
The cost of switching system is even less then.
best
berg
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I skipped upgrading my aptus 75 based on the upgrade price and reliability of Leaf as a company. When I am ready to upgrade I plan to say bye bye Leaf. I have no trust in any Leaf product after purchasing my Aptus 75 and never getting a working unit like the unit I demonstrated. Leaf could have fixed all the problem with software but only comes out with new units and no new software to fix the problem they created.
My advice don't buy any Leaf products without testing it first. If you test it and get a promise to fix in the next software return it and run.
Leaf has left me high and dry with "where working on it" I have heard the BS for over 1 1/2 years.
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On the contrary to Pixjohn I love my Leaf, however AFI does not offer me a better back than the one I already have (75S) just an ability to put my back on a new unproven system.
H/A75 Guy,
You know from my previous posts that I always try to be wise with my money or how the others call it I am just cheap. I am very busy today but I have no guarantee to work tomorrow. I am the first one to jump on a better sensor or the invest any money for the future of my carrier. I publicly stated that I will pay 100K for 6x7 sensor if anybody wants to try it. HOWEVER!!!
In my books Leaf wants people like me to switch from A75S with H1 mount to A75S
with their VERY OWN AFI mount and pay anywhere from 14,000 to 21,000 for the move.
There is something amiss with this marketing strategy. My A75s is just 4 months old. The company SCHOULD !!!! offer the mount change for free and than ask me to purchase their camera. I am sure
that Christian from Hasselblad is giggling reading this numbers and the approach Leaf took to swing Hasselblad users towards AFI. That is all I have to say on this topic unless somebody at Leaf opens their eyes and start thinking about marketing. Good luck.
http://AndreNapier (http://AndreNapier)
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indeed weird.
I chose leaf because it was the company that responded to my mails within hours instead of weeks.
I already was shooting my leaf back for a month when the reply on my inquiry for a price offer came in from the competition
When I have questions or encounter problems they respond lightning fast and accurate.
I scratched my IR filter (my own fault), within 4 days I got up and running, in between my dealer made sure I could do my sessions.
So service is great from my side.
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Andre,
Leaf is on your side.
Your numbers are incorrect: Try this deal:
$35,995 AFi7 includes WLF and 80mm lens
-3,599 10% Dealer Discount
-14,430 Turn in your A75s
-3,300 Sell your H1 on eBay
$14,666 Your price for an Afi7 with WLF and 80mm Lens.
Heck, you can pay for this on one good shooting day, You're in there!
The MAP (Manufacturers Authorized Price) for the AFi is $35,995, as TechTalk stated some months ago. This price includes the 80mm Lens. No dealer can advertise below MAP. However, any dealer can sell below MAP to an end-user. Whatever happened to TechTalk, anyway? I was afraid he may have morphed into Ray.
David
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=167154\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
As has been stated, the AFi7 does not include any lens - 80mm or otherwise - in the $35,995 price. This is different than the Sinar bundle, which does include the 80mm lens as part of their Hy6/e75LV bundle for $32,500.
Additionally, anyone with an existing Sinar eMotion 75/LV can buy a Hy6 camera and mount their existing 75LV on that camera with an interface kit that costs $559. Or at least as of their last listed pricing information - since we have yet to receive our Hy6 demo unit , I would not presume that this could not change before that time.
We are expecting to receive our AFi7 demo unit this week, and I'm excited about it but; I have to admit it is a perplexing pricing policy from Leaf.
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlaanta.com/digital.php
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Dear Steve,
this is absolutely correct. And the price of the adapter of eMotion backs to the Hy6 is correct as well, and is not supposed to change any time soon.
Best regards,
Thierry
This is different than the Sinar bundle, which does include the 80mm lens as part of their Hy6/e75LV bundle for $32,500.
Additionally, anyone with an existing Sinar eMotion 75/LV can buy a Hy6 camera and mount their existing 75LV on that camera with an interface kit that costs $559. Or at least as of their last listed pricing information - since we have yet to receive our Hy6 demo unit , I would not presume that this could not change before that time.
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlaanta.com/digital.php
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=167302\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Frank Doorhof, AndreNapier Have you check out the Leaf forum lately, they don't even respond to other Leaf buyers. The company could careless about fixing the software for existing products.
I am the idiot, I know at least 2 other photographers who returned there Leaf Aptus 75 backs because of the same problem and purchased Phase. Its not just me, but a bad Leaf business model.
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I hardly check their forum, I mail them and get a prompt response, and also from my dealer, and I hear that from more leaf customers.
I don't know what's happening with you but I never judge a firm on their forum, sometimes things can't be posted on a forum but are discusses via mail.
So just mail them directly ?
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I am the idiot, I know at least 2 other photographers who returned there Leaf Aptus 75 backs because of the same problem and purchased Phase. Its not just me, but a bad Leaf business model.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=167342\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
about the issues:
i know several collegues who have not full working backs, but the promise to get some "selected" backs and so they wait and wait and wait. some others have got in the meantime 3 or 4(!) backs ,- i talked also with photographers who dont want to post about their faulty backs because they hope on "betterwill" from leaf if they dont speak bad in public.
as from the beginning most affected are still shooters with shift cameras/ lenses. centerfold with normal mf lenses seems to be controllable mostly with the gain adjusting, but i dont know so many photographers who work outside architecture so my infos are about this special aerea, as allways. and for architecture one use normally shift lenses, where this issue may appear stronger or at least it affords for every new setting a new white gain file, meanwhile mostly with normal mf lenses one white reference can do a pretty good job ( at least in brumbaer tools with sinar, i suppose with gain adjuster it should be similar ).
i.m.o. sinar was rescued through stefan from a similar desaster-,- although its allways hard to say what would have happened if the things would have gone a different way,- so maybe someone there would have found finally a similar code as stefan did, who knows. i really would like to know if dalsa has learned its lesson and will bring out better sensors in the future. if not,- it will look dark for them in mf photography. this would be a pity, because i.m.o. its still the better sensor ( for lo- iso work ).
all this is a crazy story and it seems as there will follow soon a big bang ... if my infos are right. but i will not post more about because i dont want to be the first to publish heavy rumors. lets see.
about the prices:
its very astonishing that there appears such a huge difference between sinar and leaf. seems to be also crazy,- lets see if they will correct this but i think it should not take too long time for that, if leaf wants to sell some AFI/HY cameras too .....
about adapters:
the changing adapter plates on the sinar backs are more worth than its weight in gold, as it seems. i used them a lot in the past,- cause i changed several times my system till i found "my" mf system. changed form my old hassies to contax ( what a relief .... ) and also the gottschalt,- in opposite to alpa- has its own mount, at least in case of my rotatable back. so i changed the adapter from hassy to contax,- this was all i had to do and so i use still my "old" first e75 back, which is now updated to a 75lv.. i unmount the back between the contax and the gottschalt which works pretty fast. also i worked several times with the sinar m for aerials, doing the same here,- changing the adapter. so in total i worked with this back with 4 different cameras, each afforded another mount.
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I have mailed, called NY, called Israel and begged for working software to fix the problem. I am going to be in Israel next week and wonder if I should just drop in and let them know I am pissed.
I hardly check their forum, I mail them and get a prompt response, and also from my dealer, and I hear that from more leaf customers.
I don't know what's happening with you but I never judge a firm on their forum, sometimes things can't be posted on a forum but are discusses via mail.
So just mail them directly ?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=167346\")
As per rainer_v comments about Leaf, he is right on. I have received at least 7-8 phone calls from other shooters who will not post online about the same problems. Look at all my post and still not one fix.
[a href=\"http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=16277&hl=]magenta problem still not fixed[/url]
YaYa wrote Ill make sure your being taken care of. (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=16277&view=findpost&p=113392) YaYa any fix after 9 months? Yair seems like a nice guy but its Leaf in Irael who has dropped the ball.
I am on my 5th or 6th back and still not 100% but better (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=13103&hl=)
I called Mike Edwards from Leaf more then a week ago and never heard back. Mike is a nice guy but, come on we do have a Lemon Law in CA. If Leaf just got the right software together they would have the best back on the market. I know for a fact 1 photographer friend did not buy a Leaf back because of the problems I have had. How many other sales have they lost. Just spend the money and fix the software. Israel has some of the best software engineers in the world.
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On the contrary to Pixjohn I love my Leaf, however AFI does not offer me a better back than the one I already have (75S) just an ability to put my back on a new unproven system.
H/A75 Guy,
You know from my previous posts that I always try to be wise with my money or how the others call it I am just cheap. I am very busy today but I have no guarantee to work tomorrow. I am the first one to jump on a better sensor or the invest any money for the future of my carrier. I publicly stated that I will pay 100K for 6x7 sensor if anybody wants to try it. HOWEVER!!!
In my books Leaf wants people like me to switch from A75S with H1 mount to A75S
with their VERY OWN AFI mount and pay anywhere from 14,000 to 21,000 for the move.
There is something amiss with this marketing strategy. My A75s is just 4 months old. The company SCHOULD !!!! offer the mount change for free and than ask me to purchase their camera. I am sure
that Christian from Hasselblad is giggling reading this numbers and the approach Leaf took to swing Hasselblad users towards AFI. That is all I have to say on this topic unless somebody at Leaf opens their eyes and start thinking about marketing. Good luck.
http://AndreNapier (http://AndreNapier)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=167209\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hello Andre,
Of course Leaf has introduced its own integrated camera, called the Leaf AFi, and believes it is the best solution on the market. However the Leaf Aptus 75s on any platform is a great system and will achieve the best quality and best results only limited by the camera and lens the customer is using. It is still capable of shooting faster than any other back in both tethered and portable modes, providing the fastest and best quality previews on any size monitor.
Leaf is very happy for people to continue using their current systems (as long as they include a Leaf back). Leaf customers who choose the AFi will enjoy the additional benefits of: a 6x6 AF camera system, AFD Schneider lenses, 3 viewfinder options, a 4 position rotatable grip, single battery operation and full integration of the “Imaging Module” with the Camera/Lens system (full remote control from the software, EXIF data recording, firmware updates through the back etc.)
Leaf does not only market a single camera platform. We understand that no single solution is perfect for everybody and we are committed to continue to develop, sell and support Leaf Backs on as many camera platforms as possible.
The Imaging module (digital back) that is a part of the AFi system, can be mounted on an RZ as well as any 5X4 using adapters made by Leaf. There are also other adapters made by ALPA, Cambo etc. for this module to go on their cameras, so much like in the past, you will still have several options for using it on other platforms.
I hope this helps
Yair
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Hello Andre,
Of course Leaf has introduced its own integrated camera, called the Leaf AFi, and believes it is the best solution on the market. However the Leaf Aptus 75s on any platform is a great system and will achieve the best quality and best results only limited by the camera and lens the customer is using. It is still capable of shooting faster than any other back in both tethered and portable modes, providing the fastest and best quality previews on any size monitor.
Leaf is very happy for people to continue using their current systems (as long as they include a Leaf back). Leaf customers who choose the AFi will enjoy the additional benefits of: a 6x6 AF camera system, AFD Schneider lenses, 3 viewfinder options, a 4 position rotatable grip, single battery operation and full integration of the “Imaging Module” with the Camera/Lens system (full remote control from the software, EXIF data recording, firmware updates through the back etc.)
Leaf does not only market a single camera platform. We understand that no single solution is perfect for everybody and we are committed to continue to develop, sell and support Leaf Backs on as many camera platforms as possible.
The Imaging module (digital back) that is a part of the AFi system, can be mounted on an RZ as well as any 5X4 using adapters made by Leaf. There are also other adapters made by ALPA, Cambo etc. for this module to go on their cameras, so much like in the past, you will still have several options for using it on other platforms.
I hope this helps
Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=167402\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I see that you have neatly sidestepped John Gibbel's concerns. How about addressing his grievances? How you address his issues will be helpful to those of us watching on the sidelines, deciding on a MF digital back, because that is how you will address ours.
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Well, in fair defense of Leaf service I have to state that I received nothing but first class attention when I had problem with my back. The FireWire port on my A75S got loose and it was replaced and Fedex to me at Leaf expanse in matter of 8 hour. The back was out of hands for less than 36 hours including shipping both ways and this is very impressive. The attention that I get from Leaf America is outstanding. Rick Adshead is always there whenever I have any technical concern with any Leaf product and will not stop until we will find satisfactory solution.
Yair, you know very well that I am one very happy customer and a loyal Leaf user. I tried all digital backs in the past and I believe that Leaf produces the best files. I have experienced none of the problems mention by others here. I prise Leaf on everything they rightly deserve and that include LCII and I am very verbal about it. My complain here has nothing to do with the product quality.
I strongly believe that current A75S users (which started shipping just a few months ago) should be allowed platform change if Leaf wants us to switch to their camera. Current offer is a slap in a face as compared to Sinar offerings.
Andre
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Deleted, Repeated question..
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Deleted, I must be loosing my touch..
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Yair,
If you would, can you please confirm or deny that an 80mm lens ships standard with the AFi7 and is included in the $35,995 (MAT) price?
Thanks,
David
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Well, in fair defense of Leaf service I have to state that I received nothing but first class attention when I had problem with my back. The FireWire port on my A75S got loose and it was replaced and Fedex to me at Leaf expanse in matter of 8 hour. The back was out of hands for less than 36 hours including shipping both ways and this is very impressive. The attention that I get from Leaf America is outstanding. Rick Adshead is always there whenever I have any technical concern with any Leaf product and will not stop until we will find satisfactory solution.
Yair, you know very well that I am one very happy customer and a loyal Leaf user. I tried all digital backs in the past and I believe that Leaf produces the best files. I have experienced none of the problems mention by others here. I prise Leaf on everything they rightly deserve and that include LCII and I am very verbal about it. My complain here has nothing to do with the product quality.
I strongly believe that current A75S users (which started shipping just a few months ago) should be allowed platform change if Leaf wants us to switch to their camera. Current offer is a slap in a face as compared to Sinar offerings.
Andre
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=167416\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Andre of course you are allowed a platform change, but nobody "wants" you to switch to our camera. I mean it would be great if you do but you are not forced into it.
You have to understand that the back that is mounted on the AFi body is being developed specifically for this platform and is not just an S in a new dress, which is why we cannot just swap the backs should you choose to buy into the AFi system.
I do not know what Sinar has to offer to A75S users but I doubt it'll be a better deal than ours.
@ David, as far as I know there is no lens included in the basic package.
@ John, I believe you have an email waiting for you, inviting you for a tour of the Leaf HQ in Israel.
Yair
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"...Current offer is a slap in a face as compared to Sinar offerings."
Andre
I do not know what Sinar has to offer to A75S users but I doubt it'll be a better deal than ours.
Yair
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=167473\")
Yair, You either did not get what I meant to say or you just being .... not funny here. I certainly hope it is the first one.
Of course Sinar does not have any offerings for A75s users, but they certainly have a heck of a better deal than Leaf for their loyal customers. The fact that you can get a an adapter for few hundred bucks versus 20K+ swap says a lot. Would you please tell me what are the improvements that Leaf made to AFI backs as compared to A75s. Would you also elaborate why Sinar could offer an adapter but it was not technically possible for Leaf. I think that straight answers to this questions are crucial if you do not want to make a prophecy of your own words:
"Andre of course you are allowed a platform change, but nobody "wants" you to switch to our camera. "
[a href=\"http://AndreNapier.com]http://AndreNapier.com[/url]
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Yair,
I have reread your post and my reply. It took me a while but I got your point now.
Sorry for misunderstanding it originally. I guess, disregard my previous post.
Every company has full rights to decide their business strategies. If it is not an intention of Leaf to have current A75S owners to switch from H1/H2 to AFI than Leaf is absolutely entitled to that.
I am puzzled by that as I thought that it would help to have the camera visible in hands of real users but who am I to question it.
Http://AndreNapier (http://Http://AndreNapier)
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Yair,
I have reread your post and my reply. It took me a while but I got your point now.
Sorry for misunderstanding it originally.
Http://AndreNapier (http://Http://AndreNapier)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=167602\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It sounds like all is well that ends well for Leaf. Yair and Andre helped the LL community figure out Leaf's 'Game plan'. I have an understanding of what is included in the AFi kit. John gets a tour of Leaf's facility in Israel and maybe to the top of the mountain for some wine (or a stiff drink). I can't see an auto dealer letting someone swap 5 or 6 vehicles so it's hard to blame Mike Edwards for laying low. Sounds like Leaf was pretty cool to swap 5 or 6 backs. And, in the end, if an AFi is $2,500 more than an Hy6, that's probably a small price to keep those fine LC-11 updates coming.
David
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Your kidding me right? If you test drove a high performance car and loved the feel and look of the car then purchased the same car but it would only turn left would you be happy. I don't know about you but I am not happy with Centerfold lines, magenta highlights and a software that does not fix any of the issues without jumping through hoops. Next time I will skip the performance car and just buy a yugo. If Leaf wanted to spend the time, they could fix what they promised to deliver. I feel like I am dealing with a used car lot. All I want is software to fix the issue, very simple solution to make a crying man happy.
John gets a tour of Leaf's facility in Israel and maybe to the top of the mountain for some wine (or a stiff drink). I can't see an auto dealer letting someone swap 5 or 6 vehicles so it's hard to blame Mike Edwards for laying low. Sounds like Leaf was pretty cool to swap 5 or 6 backs. And, in the end, if an AFi is $2,500 more than an Hy6, that's probably a small price to keep those fine LC-11 updates coming.
David
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=167664\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Enjoy your time in Israel, guy !
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Andre of course you are allowed a platform change, but nobody "wants" you to switch to our camera. I mean it would be great if you do but you are not forced into it.
You have to understand that the back that is mounted on the AFi body is being developed specifically for this platform and is not just an S in a new dress, which is why we cannot just swap the backs should you choose to buy into the AFi system.
I do not know what Sinar has to offer to A75S users but I doubt it'll be a better deal than ours.
@ David, as far as I know there is no lens included in the basic package.
@ John, I believe you have an email waiting for you, inviting you for a tour of the Leaf HQ in Israel.
Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=167473\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yair,
What has been added to the backs on the afi?
Does the 90 degree prism exist now or just around the corner?
Kevin.
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Yair,
What has been added to the backs on the afi?
Does the 90 degree prism exist now or just around the corner?
Kevin.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=167753\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Kevin hi,
Allot of work has been put into clever power management so one battery can be utilised with automatic switching between portable and tethered modes. One example is if you shoot tethered into a laptop that runs out of battery, the camera will automatically start using the battery in the grip and so on.
There are numerous other features that will be implemented into the AFi in the near future through firmware updates that won't be available for the other models: camera firmware update through the firewire cable being one of them.
The 90º is 2-3 months away however there is a 45º prism that is already shipping.
Yair
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Your kidding me right? If you test drove a high performance car and loved the feel and look of the car then purchased the same car but it would only turn left would you be happy. I don't know about you but I am not happy with Centerfold lines, magenta highlights and a software that does not fix any of the issues without jumping through hoops. Next time I will skip the performance car and just buy a yugo. If Leaf wanted to spend the time, they could fix what they promised to deliver. I feel like I am dealing with a used car lot. All I want is software to fix the issue, very simple solution to make a crying man happy.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=167680\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
John did you get the invite sent to you by email? I believe that a visit to the factory can give you a better understanding of the development process but moreover you will have an opportunity to share your feedback face-to-face with the people behind the product.
Let me know if you haven't received it yet.
thanks
Yair
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Yair,
Do you have any approximate date for when the Afi back will start using the RGB-data from the cameras external WB sensor?
When will this firmware update be available? And how do PC users update to this new firmware when it has to be done through Leaf Capture software, which won't work in a windows environment?
And finally, when will there be a rotating adaptor for the Leaf AFi?
Thanks,
Rune W. Molnes
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Yair,
Do you have any approximate date for when the Afi back will start using the RGB-data from the cameras external WB sensor?
When will this firmware update be available? And how do PC users update to this new firmware when it has to be done through Leaf Capture software, which won't work in a windows environment?
And finally, when will there be a rotating adaptor for the Leaf AFi?
Thanks,
Rune W. Molnes
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=167806\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hello Rune,
WB sensor: At the moment the RGB data is still not being transmitted by the camera. Once it does, it should not take us too long to record and to use this information. At this point I do not have a timeframe for this.
PC users: as previously discussed on this board the PC version of LC11 is coming along, slowly but surely and we are not far from having it as a public beta. Once it is released it will have the same feature-set and functionality as the Mac version, including anything related to the AFi.
We are working on a rotating solution that I believe to be announced later this year, again I cannot draw any specific timeframe as yet.
I hope this helps
Yair
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Hi Yaya, I did get the email. I am looking more for anwsers then just a visit. I would be happy to see what Leaf is working on, and bring my Aptus 75 to test.
John did you get the invite sent to you by email? I believe that a visit to the factory can give you a better understanding of the development process but moreover you will have an opportunity to share your feedback face-to-face with the people behind the product.
Let me know if you haven't received it yet.
thanks
Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=167760\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]