Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: thsinar on October 16, 2007, 10:49:33 pm

Title: Sinar Hy6 Prices
Post by: thsinar on October 16, 2007, 10:49:33 pm
For those who are looking for the Sinar Hy6 system prices, as well as separate Hy6 camera body:

- Sinar Hy6 Digital Combo/75LV   $32,500.00
- Sinar Hy6 Digital Combo/54LV   $27,500.00
- Sinar Hy6 Body                          $4,381.00
- Mirror Finder 90 Degree Hy6     $1,366.00

Remark:

Prices including a "5 year Hot Swap warranty on all Hy6 systems" bought this year.  All components including back camera and lens bought as a bundle.

Best regards,
Thierry

edited for correction & addendum
Title: Sinar Hy6 Prices
Post by: thsinar on October 16, 2007, 11:13:48 pm
Dear EPd,

NOT. It is an optional accessory.
The rotating adapter is not yet ready, currently in production. I shall inform when available.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Is the rotating adapter (which allows the back to stay on the body when rotating) included with each back or is it a separate item?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146519\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: Sinar Hy6 Prices
Post by: Prakash Patel on October 16, 2007, 11:23:04 pm
Thierry

What sort of warranty is included in this pricing? Does the warranty also cover the camera?
Does the combo include a lens and waist level finder?
What is the price of the 75slv and what kind of a warranty is included in that price?
regards

Quote
For those who are looking for the Sinar Hy6 system prices, as well as separate Hy6 camera body:

- Sinar Hy6 Digital Combo/75LV   $32,500.00
- Sinar Hy6 Digital Combo/54LV   $27,500.00
- Sinar Hy6 Body                        $4,381.00
- Mirror Finder 90 Degree Hy6   $1,366.00

Best regards,
Thierry

edited for correction
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146514\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: Sinar Hy6 Prices
Post by: thsinar on October 16, 2007, 11:26:39 pm
Dear Prakash,

I've just edited my post for an important addendum, while you have been posting!

Please check this addendum about "5-year Hot Swap" of the whole system.

More details will be given by Greg King from SBI here on this forum.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Thierry

What sort of warranty is included in this pricing? Does the warranty also cover the camera?
Does the combo include a lens and waist level finder?
What is the price of the 75slv and what kind of a warranty is included in that price?
regards
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146521\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: Sinar Hy6 Prices
Post by: gregkingsbi on October 16, 2007, 11:32:49 pm
Quote
Dear Prakash,

I've just edited my post for an important addendum, while you have been posting!

Please check this addendum about "5-year Hot Swap" of the whole system.

More details will be given by Greg King from SBI here on this forum.

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146523\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Dear Prakash,

The 5 year "Hot Swap" warranty is for those customers who buy a complete Sinar Hy6/eMotion 75LV "Bundle" between now and the end of the year.  It includes all camera components as well as the eMotion back.

Sincerely,

Greg King
Sinar Bron Imaging
Title: Sinar Hy6 Prices
Post by: gregkingsbi on October 16, 2007, 11:47:22 pm
Quote
Dear Prakash,

The 5 year "Hot Swap" warranty is for those customers who buy a complete Sinar Hy6/eMotion 75LV "Bundle" between now and the end of the year.  It includes all camera components as well as the eMotion back.

Sincerely,

Greg King
Sinar Bron Imaging
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146524\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Dear Prakash,

Just to clarify, the $32,500 "Bundle" is the Sinar Hy6 body, WL finder, 80mm lens and eMotion 75LV.  The 5 year "Hot Swap" warranty covers ALL of these components when purchased before the end of the year.

Sincerely,

Greg King
Sinar Bron Imaging
Title: Sinar Hy6 Prices
Post by: H1/A75 Guy on October 16, 2007, 11:50:18 pm
Quote
"5-year Hot Swap" of the whole system.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146523\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Thierry

What does this mean?

David
Title: Sinar Hy6 Prices
Post by: thsinar on October 16, 2007, 11:53:34 pm
David,

I think Greg from SBI would be in a better position to explain it, but basically it is a 5-year exchange warranty for ALL components of the purchased bundle (Hy6 body, eMotion 75 LV digital back, 80mm lens, ...).

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Thierry

What does this mean?

David
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146528\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: Sinar Hy6 Prices
Post by: gregkingsbi on October 16, 2007, 11:57:00 pm
Quote
Thierry

What does this mean?

David
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146528\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Dear David,

What this means is that when we determine that a covered item is defective, we will overnight a loaner or replacement piece immediately for a period of 5 years from the date of purchase.

Sincerely,

Greg King
Sinar Bron Imaging
Title: Sinar Hy6 Prices
Post by: BJNY on October 16, 2007, 11:59:45 pm
Here's the link to the Hy6 eMotion 75 LV promotion with 5-year "Hot Swap" warranty:
http://www.sinarbron.com/documents/Sinar_Promo.pdf (http://www.sinarbron.com/documents/Sinar_Promo.pdf)

The Sinar Hy6 eMotion 75 LV Digital System includes:
Sinar Hy6
eMotion 75LV
80mm 2.8 PQS lens
WL and 90 degree finders
Carrying Case
Title: Sinar Hy6 Prices
Post by: BJNY on October 17, 2007, 12:02:07 am
Here's the link to Sinar Bron's Rollei price list:
http://sinarbron.com/documents/Rollei_Pricing_2007.pdf (http://sinarbron.com/documents/Rollei_Pricing_2007.pdf)
Title: Sinar Hy6 Prices
Post by: gregkingsbi on October 17, 2007, 12:16:54 am
Quote
If that's what's in the $32,500 bundle with 5 years hot swap warranty, it looks like quite a good price to me.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146539\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The "Bundle" for $32,500 is for the Sinar Hy6 camera, 80mm lens, WL finder, Interface and eMotion 75LV back.  It does not include the 90 degree viewfinder.  If someone buys the 'Bundle" and a 90 degree viewfinder, we will cover the viewfinder as well as in the 5 year "SinarCare Hot Swap" warranty.  Of course, if they buy the "Bundle", without the 90 degree viewfinder, we will cover the entire system as well.

Thanks

Greg King
SBI
Title: Sinar Hy6 Prices
Post by: Natasa Stojsic on October 17, 2007, 12:32:25 am
Quote
Here's the link to the Hy6 eMotion 75 LV promotion with 5-year "Hot Swap" warranty:
http://www.sinarbron.com/documents/Sinar_Promo.pdf (http://www.sinarbron.com/documents/Sinar_Promo.pdf)

The Sinar Hy6 eMotion 75 LV Digital System includes:
Sinar Hy6
eMotion 75LV
80mm 2.8 PQS lens
WL and 90 degree finders
Carrying Case
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146535\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Very good product and their deal looks good too considering...  Personally, I think they need new eMotion 75 LV with 3" Screen for people to notice!!! Otherwise YES Hasselblad is expensive!!! Hasselblad is not fair!!! Hasselblad is closed system!!! but Hasselblad is improving and moving forward faster or if you wish a little faster compared to everyone else.
Title: Sinar Hy6 Prices
Post by: H1/A75 Guy on October 17, 2007, 12:56:54 am
Quote
The "Bundle" for $32,500 is for the Sinar Hy6 camera, 80mm lens, WL finder, Interface and eMotion 75LV back.  It does not include the 90 degree viewfinder.  If someone buys the 'Bundle" and a 90 degree viewfinder, we will cover the viewfinder as well as in the 5 year "SinarCare Hot Swap" warranty.  Of course, if they buy the "Bundle", without the 90 degree viewfinder, we will cover the entire system as well.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146543\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Understood. Nicely done Greg and Thierry. It's nice to see the 80mm lens included in the bundle.

David
Title: Sinar Hy6 Prices
Post by: Morgan_Moore on October 17, 2007, 09:45:17 am
Quote
Was there ever a discussion about a shift adapter (not for the lens but for the back)?

Best,
Johannes
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146614\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I suggested it but dont know about it actually having been considered by them who count

(although it could be a dicernable difference between this and the H system - an actual reason to change currently change to me woud just cost money and lose wideness !)

S
Title: Sinar Hy6 Prices
Post by: ynp on October 17, 2007, 10:27:29 am
Quote
Was there ever a discussion about a shift adapter (not for the lens but for the back)?

Best,
Johannes
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146614\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I bought a Rollei/ALPA adapter and use it on  my ALPA SWA with shift.
The ALPA body is thin enough and the body movements are almost the
same as  the Digital back  (sensor) shift.  So sensor shift is possible
with Rollei 6008 lenses.
Yevgeny
Title: Sinar Hy6 Prices
Post by: thsinar on October 17, 2007, 11:06:20 am
Dear Sam (and to answer Johannes as well),

I have forwarded your request to our product manager, and explained in detail what would be the advantages. I can assure you that it is on the wish/improvement list. However, some other things have currently and obviously priority.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
I suggested it but dont know about it actually having been considered by them who count

(although it could be a dicernable difference between this and the H system - an actual reason to change currently change to me woud just cost money and lose wideness !)

S
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146621\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: Sinar Hy6 Prices
Post by: rainer_v on October 17, 2007, 12:01:52 pm
Quote
Dear Sam (and to answer Johannes as well),

I have forwarded your request to our product manager, and explained in detail what would be the advantages. I can assure you that it is on the wish/improvement list. However, some other things have currently and obviously priority.

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146635\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
yes. great. when is room for turning around the adapter there might be room instead for a shift mechanism.
Title: Sinar Hy6 Prices
Post by: BJNY on October 17, 2007, 12:09:36 pm
KaptureGroup's GX680 rotating + shifting adapter for V-mount  digital backs:

(http://www.kapturegroup.com/stitch_35/fuji_stitch.jpg)
Title: Sinar Hy6 Prices
Post by: thsinar on October 17, 2007, 12:13:15 pm
Thanks Billy, much appreciated!

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
KaptureGroup's GX680 rotating + shifting adapter for V-mount  digital backs:
Title: Sinar Hy6 Prices
Post by: Morgan_Moore on October 17, 2007, 01:09:52 pm
Quote
Dear Sam (and to answer Johannes as well),

I have forwarded your request to our product manager, and explained in detail what would be the advantages. I can assure you that it is on the wish/improvement list. However, some other things have currently and obviously priority.

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146635\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I am baffled that seems some sort of radical idea.

I floated it ages ago

it should be blindingly obvious to a 'product manager'

it should have been in the inital specs meeting three years ago

being the one way that the extra glass (and money) actually becomes of use to 645 chip owners

do this and you have a camera that actually becomes more attractive than the H1, which at the moment I can see no significant advantage and many significant disadvantages like cost and wideangle

and with no significant advantage I cant see that you will sell many at all

luck to you

S
Title: Sinar Hy6 Prices
Post by: Dustbak on October 17, 2007, 01:25:25 pm
I totally agree with Sam. The shifting possibility would give you a sort of Flexbody, a way to really use the larger image circle of the lenses. Amazing indeed this was not in the plans from the start  

That way you can go wide, with stitching get to an enormous resolution, etc..

(sure not always usable)
Title: Sinar Hy6 Prices
Post by: pss on October 17, 2007, 03:02:08 pm
just looked at the bundle pdf....and i have seen it before....don't egt me wrong but i don't see how the 90 finder is NOT included with this offer? it states very clearly that it is...and the case...and the warranty....either way....i am glad this comes at a VERY competitive price and the 5 year hot swap for body, lens and back is a real killer....raises the bar considerably....
Title: Sinar Hy6 Prices
Post by: Graham Mitchell on October 17, 2007, 07:58:13 pm
Quote
What should have baffled you as well is how to connect all contacts between the body and the back.

You beat me to it. It's not so simple, but it would be a real asset for reasons already pointed out (easy high-res stitches, shift on every lens, wider angles) and set the Hy6 system apart.
Title: Sinar Hy6 Prices
Post by: rethmeier on October 17, 2007, 08:19:51 pm
I would assume that the possibility for a lateral shift of the back to be minimal.
The reason for this would be the image circle of the current lens range.
Still 5mm each way would be fantastic!
Good luck to the engineers!
Maybe in those situations the back can be fired with a cable?
Cheers.
WR
Title: Sinar Hy6 Prices
Post by: paul_jones on October 17, 2007, 09:26:44 pm
Quote
KaptureGroup's GX680 rotating + shifting adapter for V-mount  digital backs:

(http://www.kapturegroup.com/stitch_35/fuji_stitch.jpg)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146645\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


billy, have you used one of these adaptors? it would be cooler to have one on an rz67, more lens choices and faster than the fuji options.

paul
Title: Sinar Hy6 Prices
Post by: thsinar on October 17, 2007, 10:27:45 pm
Dear Sam,

I fully and totally agree with your comments, except that it is "blindingly obvious to a product manager". I did not say that this idea was not a tought we had. Simply, and here you are right, it was not included in the specs from the begining. There are many other other features/accessories to be included in such a system, that all cannot be done at the same time. After, it is a question of priorities and feedback from the market, which leads to some thoughts of costs/volume of sales/rentability and last but not least feasability and capacity for engeneering/designing and production. This seems so obvious and easy for some of you, also for me, I must admit, but the reality is very different.

So I am sure that this is something we will look at seriously, when the time has come and all other "pendings" are done, like the revolving adapter which has been integrated and is now in production  phase.

Thanks anyway for such valuable feedback.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
I am baffled that seems some sort of radical idea.

I floated it ages ago

it should be blindingly obvious to a 'product manager'

it should have been in the inital specs meeting three years ago

being the one way that the extra glass (and money) actually becomes of use to 645 chip owners

do this and you have a camera that actually becomes more attractive than the H1, which at the moment I can see no significant advantage and many significant disadvantages like cost and wideangle

and with no significant advantage I cant see that you will sell many at all

luck to you

S
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146664\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: Sinar Hy6 Prices
Post by: Graham Mitchell on October 17, 2007, 10:35:32 pm
Quote
- Sinar Hy6 Body                 $4,381.00        €3,155.00

Does this include an eMotion adapter? If not, how much is the adapter? The body alone is not usable.
Title: Sinar Hy6 Prices
Post by: gregkingsbi on October 17, 2007, 10:51:11 pm
Quote
just looked at the bundle pdf....and i have seen it before....don't egt me wrong but i don't see how the 90 finder is NOT included with this offer? it states very clearly that it is...and the case...and the warranty....either way....i am glad this comes at a VERY competitive price and the 5 year hot swap for body, lens and back is a real killer....raises the bar considerably....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146698\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Dear Paul.

I am sorry for the confusion.  You are looking at two different things.  One is the price that we have announced  that we are charging for a "Bundle" which includes a WL finder, 80mm lens, eMotion 75LV back and a Hy6 body.  The other is a promotion for those who buy the items listed in that particular ad before the first of the year.  They will receive a 5 year "SinarCare" warranty on that particular list of items which includes a 90 degree viewfinder.  We have decided you can also receive the 5 year warranty without including the 90 degree viewfinder, but either way, the 90 degree viewfinder is not included in the :Bundle" price of $32,500.  We have not published anything that says the $32,500 "Bundle" includes the 90 degree viewfinder.  The promotion ad does not list how much that list of items will cost, just that the 5 year SinarCare warranty will be included.

Thanks,

Greg King
SBI
Title: Sinar Hy6 Prices
Post by: gregkingsbi on October 17, 2007, 11:09:26 pm
Quote
Does this include an eMotion adapter? If not, how much is the adapter? The body alone is not usable.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146795\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Dear Graham,

This price does not include an interface.  The body price alone is listed for those that might want to add a film back and do not need an interface.  The interface for a Sinar eMotion 75LV is $559.00.

Sincerely,

Greg King
SBI
Title: Sinar Hy6 Prices
Post by: Morgan_Moore on October 18, 2007, 01:31:00 am
Quote
What should have baffled you as well is how to connect all contacts between the body and the back.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146684\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The main point is the system currently has no USP (unique selling point) to justify a cost of change IMO

With a USP the system could be a sucess - without one - I am not so sure

It is that lack of USP at the design stage (product managers job??) that confuses me

I just cant see how a salesman would try and sell me this system

"Hi -  spend $20000 dollars with us on changing system"

me - do I get faster lenses ?

salesman - no

me do I get wider lenses ??

salesman - no

me - do I get multipoint AF ???

salesman - no

me - rise fall ?????

salesman - no

me tilt shift ??????

salesman - no

me stitching ????????

me - compact camera standard live view ????

salesman - no

me - can I program my own exposure modes and integrate auto ISO ????

salesman - no

me - can I set my own AF ranges to stop focus hunt?

salesman - no

me - VR maybe?

salesman - no

me - leaves shop confused

 Its not a great pitch is it ?

Maybe its all about a future chip


----

In terms of the cabling of course it is a challenge - but that will be made harder by too much unnessesary comunitcation

I cant really see, apart from the firing what needs to be comunicated

A camera is just a AF mirror box after all

SO maybe Exif data would be lost - but who cares - I dont really care to know my settings

decent exif data only has relevance for lens correction software or proper live view or chip based AF all features which are currently absent from this system anyway

---

ps. Here is a cabling solution ...

Spend about $5 at radio shack on an peanut sized IR transmitter/reciver set

plug them into the PC sockets of body and back

oversimplified but you get the idea.

S
Title: Sinar Hy6 Prices
Post by: Graham Mitchell on October 18, 2007, 05:07:18 am
Morgan_Moore, it depends which questions you ask.

- Do I get a wider choice of compatible lenses?

yes

- Can I use a waist level finder in portrait and landscape modes?

yes

- Do I get faster flash sync?

yes

- Is it ready for larger sensors?

yes

- Do I get faster AF?

yes (according to early reports)

- Do I have a wider choice of digital backs to choose from?

yes

- Can the lenses and back be used on a view camera?

yes

- Can I change orientation by rotating the back and not the whole camera?

yes


Of course it would be only better to add more unique selling points, and it sounds like either a larger sensor or a shifting back will become a reality before long.

Oh, and I agree with your point about the sync cable. It's better to have the shift back which requires a cable than no shift back at all. I'm already dreaming about the results I could get with my 40mm lens and an effective 48x56mm sensor.
Title: Sinar Hy6 Prices
Post by: Morgan_Moore on October 18, 2007, 05:20:12 am
- Can I use a waist level finder in portrait and landscape modes?

yes this is great

- Do I get faster flash sync?

only 17%

- Is it ready for larger sensors?

yes but I already have my sensor and for editorial shooters square is not the norm

- Do I get faster AF?

yes maybe but being centre point it is still basically only a focus aid

- Do I have a wider choice of digital backs to choose from?

yes but I alreaddy have a back

- Can the lenses and back be used on a view camera?

yes a discontinued one and one made by a third party, the lenses dont go on sinar view cameras and the boack doesnt without changing the mount !

- Can I change orientation by rotating the back and not the whole camera?

yes - fantastic


So for rich big style fashion cataloge shooters IMO this camera is the mutts nuts absolutely - i'll have two please when I get that gig
Title: Sinar Hy6 Prices
Post by: thsinar on October 18, 2007, 05:29:05 am
QUOTE

- Do I get faster flash sync?

only 17%

---> comment Thierry: 14 lenses out of some 20+ available for this system are PQS = Sync at 1/1000

QUOTE

- Can the lenses and back be used on a view camera?

yes a discontinued one and one made by a third party, the lenses dont go on sinar view cameras and the boack doesnt without changing the mount !

---> comment Thierry: I don't get it. Yes, you have to change the mount/adapter. BUT ALL Sinarbacks fit ANY view camera, Sinar or not
Title: Sinar Hy6 Prices
Post by: Graham Mitchell on October 18, 2007, 05:32:47 am
Quote
yes but I alreaddy have a back

Aren't we discussing the hypothetical advantages of you changing over to this system from another? That is my understanding of your earlier post. If so, already having a back becomes immaterial.
Title: Sinar Hy6 Prices
Post by: rethmeier on October 18, 2007, 05:34:18 am
Sam,you really amaze me.  
If you don't like the Hy6,just move on and don't buy it.
Remember ,a camera or camera system is only a means to an end.
There is no ultimate camera system,however the Hy6 will fulfill 95% of my needs.
Cheers,
WR.
Title: Sinar Hy6 Prices
Post by: Dustbak on October 18, 2007, 07:46:31 am
It has 25% faster flash sync (if going from 1/800th to 1/1000th) if I am not mistaken?

The ability to change the mount is, for me, a very strong point. On the CF it is a breeze (don't tighten the torx' to much), I expect it to be the same on the Sinar.

Willem is right, there is no ultimate camera system. The Hy6/Afi has some features I really appreciate and so do other systems. Which is probably why I seem to collect stuff but each has its purposes (at least that is what I use as an explanation towards the evergrowing pile of equipment).
Title: Sinar Hy6 Prices
Post by: Dustbak on October 18, 2007, 07:52:33 am
Many great selling points. I specifically like the Schneider glass and low mirror vibration.

Tell me about the 10shot mode within a second. How can I use that? Can I do a 16shot within 1.6 seconds?    
Title: Sinar Hy6 Prices
Post by: thsinar on October 18, 2007, 08:00:10 am
Dear EPd,

I did not dare to mention again the same, since it was published already at least 2 times here, with the tech data and specs and in different other treads.

One for me important and unique feature on the Sinar Hy6:

- Focus Braketing

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Some USP's not mentioned yet in this thread:

- internal light metering (spot, multi-spot, multi-zone) regardless of the viewfinder used;
- extra low mirror vibration due to direct drive mirror;
- multi-shot up to ten exposures per second without moving the mirror in between shots;
- rotational handgrip;
- Schneider Kreuznach glass on an MF camera
- new system with use of older mount lenses (so there is a used market for lenses), fully compatible;
- focus trap;
- extra quick-release mode for 2ms response time;
- "flat" user interface, meaning that all vital controls are directly available, without scrolling through sub-menus;
- mat petrol-gray color of body, making it very stealthy in the field;
- fully usable with 6x6 and 6x4.5 film;
- full compatibility of the lenses (shutters and aperture) with Rollei X-act view camera and Rollei Lens Control, making it an intergrated system for multiple use of DB.

I would probably know to mention more if I only thought about it for another minute. This camera has so many USP's that someone could be confused by them.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146900\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: Sinar Hy6 Prices
Post by: thsinar on October 18, 2007, 08:05:51 am
.... and, the same kind of function is used if one wishes a PERFECT live video image, WITHOUT LC shutter.

Thierry

Quote
In this mode the shutter will rattle on as long as you press the trigger button. I don't think there is any back yet that can keep up with the highest speeds available yet. Effectively this same mode is used when operated tethered, but then the amount of shots is set at the computer and fired at a pace that can be followed by the back.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146903\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: Sinar Hy6 Prices
Post by: Dustbak on October 18, 2007, 08:10:40 am
Thanks Epd & Thierry,

Currently you also need to be tethered to do multishot (at least you have to with Hasselblad which multishot back I will be getting end of this week).

Right! In that case you get an image at 10fps I guess? Hmmm... it does sound like that is a real lens shutter killer.

At 150K shutter life you get about 250minutes of live video? (I know that is quite a bit but still).
Title: Sinar Hy6 Prices
Post by: thsinar on October 18, 2007, 08:15:33 am
so far I can remember, this function does not use a 10 fps speed. I can confirm this after having checked. However, you are right, this has obviously an influence on the shutter. On the other hand, you don't HAVE TO use it, since LV is also possible without this function, with the "normal" quality and the related issues of saturation of the sensor.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Right! In that case you get an image at 10fps I guess? Hmmm... it does sound like that is a real lens shutter killer.

At 150K shutter life you get about 250minutes of live video? (I know that is quite a bit but still).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146905\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: Sinar Hy6 Prices
Post by: Rune Werner Molnes on October 18, 2007, 08:46:30 am
Thierry,

I'm rather curious with regards to the focus bracketing feature.

Could you go into some more detail?

It would of course be very interesting for us landscape photographers if the focus bracketing could blend for instance three images with different focus into one, effectively increasing DOF. But I guess this will have to be done in post processing. If it could be done effectively in- camera, it would reduce the appeal of/need for a LF camera as an second system.

But what makes the focus bracketing such a big sellingpoint, when it very easily can be done manually?

You mention "unique to Sinar Hy6", but I guess/hope that we will see the same feature in the Leaf AFi?

Thanks,

Rune Werner Molnes


Quote
Dear EPd,

I did not dare to mention again the same, since it was published already at least 2 times here, with the tech data and specs and in different other treads.

One for me important and unique feature on the Sinar Hy6:

- Focus Braketing

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146902\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: Sinar Hy6 Prices
Post by: thsinar on October 18, 2007, 08:52:25 am
Dear Rune,

Yes, this focus bracketing allows basically to shoot (automatically) either 3 or 5 sequences of images, with each time and between each image the focus being moved.
Your guess is right, these images have to be post-processed.
This can of course be done manually, though certainly not with the precision of the camera itself and not as fast. So it might be important for some to have this done automatically.

I do think that the Leaf AFi has this feature too, but I prefer somebody from Leaf confirming this rather then me.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Thierry,

I'm rather curious with regards to the focus bracketing feature.

Could you go into some more detail?

It would of course be very interesting for us landscape photographers if the focus bracketing could blend for instance three images with different focus into one, effectively increasing DOF. But I guess this will have to be done in post processing. If it could be done effectively in- camera, it would reduce the appeal of/need for a LF camera as an second system.

But what makes the focus bracketing such a big sellingpoint, when it very easily can be done manually?

You mention "unique to Sinar Hy6", but I guess/hope that we will see the same feature in the Leaf AFi?

Thanks,

Rune Werner Molnes
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146911\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: Sinar Hy6 Prices
Post by: Dustbak on October 18, 2007, 09:03:27 am
Thierry,

One of the problems with focus bracketing, especially with short distances, is that with many lenses the focal length changes somewhat and with every lens the image is different comparing places in focus with those out of focus.

It is not always very easy to place those images on top of each other and have natural transitions (not sure how good Helicon Focus is here, never came around testing it).

Are there plans to integrate this type of blending into the Sinar software eventually (sort of like the Hasselblad lens corrections in software)? I can see a real use here with stuff like table-top photography.

BTW, this is just dreaming about possibilities here. By no way I mean I need to have stuff like this yesterday  (though there has been more than one occassion where this would have come in handy).
Title: Sinar Hy6 Prices
Post by: thsinar on October 18, 2007, 09:54:35 am
Dear Dustback,

yes, you are right. The focal length and the reproduction scale changing very slightly, more so at short distances is, so far I can imagine, unavoidable. And the solution is here probably only to be found in a software correction.

There are no such plans currently to incorporate this in our capture software, but I'm pretty sure that there exists some softwares specialized in this. I am not an expert on this and may be somebody can jump in here.

I will forward your suggestion.

Thanks and best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Thierry,

One of the problems with focus bracketing, especially with short distances, is that with many lenses the focal length changes somewhat and with every lens the image is different comparing places in focus with those out of focus.

It is not always very easy to place those images on top of each other and have natural transitions (not sure how good Helicon Focus is here, never came around testing it).

Are there plans to integrate this type of blending into the Sinar software eventually (sort of like the Hasselblad lens corrections in software)? I can see a real use here with stuff like table-top photography.

BTW, this is just dreaming about possibilities here. By no way I mean I need to have stuff like this yesterday  (though there has been more than one occassion where this would have come in handy).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146914\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: Sinar Hy6 Prices
Post by: Morgan_Moore on October 18, 2007, 12:59:22 pm
Quote
Sam,you really amaze me.  
If you don't like the Hy6,just move on and don't buy it.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146883\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

move on where exactly ??

Your right im not enamoured by the Hy6 - well actually thats not true, once the 35mm lens is about I think for me it would be absolutely the best system for me

I am sure it is a wonderful camera - I shoot a lot of uprights and push my shutter speeds down handheld a lot

so just the slap could make a difference to me

I am even less enamoured by hasselblad who have (without a back change for me) closed me out of any of thier developments

my general points are..

I would like to see a decent competitor to blad

and

the lost oppourtunities

(This is not THs fault)

but sinar seem in a right mess

two if not three super expensive lens sets for example one for the view system and another for the SLR

and a virtual failure to embrace digital technology

I am utterley serious that I would like be able to program my camera on my laptop, TTL ratios, when ISO boost kicks in and the AF range of the lenses

Using my blad under water (and half in halff out) really tests it - and shows its limitations P,A,S dont work, AF hunts etc - all solvable with a bit of user input, all the automation only adds up to me selecting MF and M metering

AF ranging on lenses is critical to fast AF and multipoint is critical to useable AF

I would like edge weighted metering for example (when you are flashing the main subject!)

and as for the back to body comunitcation I am sure that could be done with a mini wireless device rather than 'bogglingly' complex mechanics

Sinar seem to have failed mechacnically  to sit down with the bits like a 645 chip and those lenses and say - 'hey space for rise with that image circle - people would pay good money for that'

they have also failed to electrically/digitally and use the proper power of microprocessing to really smooth the focusing and metering in the way each individual chooses

All I want is a MF camera that has decent synch, a bit of rise/fall and a lense wider than my clients D80 with an 18-200 kit lens- becuase not having that can be embarrasing - oh and AF that works

 S
Title: Sinar Hy6 Prices
Post by: thsinar on October 18, 2007, 01:13:13 pm
Sam,

I wish we could have you in our R&D team.

All those sleeping people and un-capable would defintively wake up!

 

Thierry

Quote
move on where exactly ??

Your right im not enamoured by the Hy6 - well actually thats not true, once the 35mm lens is about I think for me it would be absolutely the best system for me

I am sure it is a wonderful camera - I shoot a lot of uprights and push my shutter speeds down handheld a lot

so just the slap could make a difference to me

I am even less enamoured by hasselblad who have (without a back change for me) closed me out of any of thier developments

my general points are..

I would like to see a decent competitor to blad

and

the lost oppourtunities

(This is not THs fault)

but sinar seem in a right mess

two if not three super expensive lens sets for example one for the view system and another for the SLR

and a virtual failure to embrace digital technology

I am utterley serious that I would like be able to program my camera on my laptop, TTL ratios, when ISO boost kicks in and the AF range of the lenses

Using my blad under water (and half in halff out) really tests it - and shows its limitations P,A,S dont work, AF hunts etc - all solvable with a bit of user input, all the automation only adds up to me selecting MF and M metering

AF ranging on lenses is critical to fast AF and multipoint is critical to useable AF

I would like edge weighted metering for example (when you are flashing the main subject!)

and as for the back to body comunitcation I am sure that could be done with a mini wireless device rather than 'bogglingly' complex mechanics

Sinar seem to have failed mechacnically  to sit down with the bits like a 645 chip and those lenses and say - 'hey space for rise with that image circle - people would pay good money for that'

they have also failed to electrically/digitally and use the proper power of microprocessing to really smooth the focusing and metering in the way each individual chooses

All I want is a MF camera that has decent synch, a bit of rise/fall and a lense wider than my clients D80 with an 18-200 kit lens- becuase not having that can be embarrasing - oh and AF that works

 S
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146962\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: Sinar Hy6 Prices
Post by: Morgan_Moore on October 18, 2007, 01:24:14 pm
Quote
Sam,

I wish we could have you in our R&D team.

All those sleeping people and un-capable would defintively wake up!

 

Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146967\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well I am actually trying to help and inspire - make me an offer

Its like the development guys at kodak (SLRN) if someone sent them into the field with 200ISO minimum and 125 sysnch speed and lenses that crap out at F11 they would wake have woken up pretty fast - yet the thing got to market and lost so much money kodak had to totally dip out of the arena - a 10 minute chat with a photographer could have stopped that
Title: Sinar Hy6 Prices
Post by: thsinar on October 18, 2007, 01:36:56 pm
Sam,

it was just some humor. I am pretty tired from waiting for the predicted annoucement and/or show at Photo Plus today.

Your comments are though taken seriously.

We shall continue our "argumentation" tomorrow, since I will leave now.

Best regards,
Thierry



Quote
Well I am actually trying to help and inspire - make me an offer

Its like the development guys at kodak (SLRN) if someone sent them into the field with 200ISO minimum and 125 sysnch speed and lenses that crap out at F11 they would wake have woken up pretty fast - yet the thing got to market and lost so much money kodak had to totally dip out of the arena - a 10 minute chat with a photographer could have stopped that
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146975\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: Sinar Hy6 Prices
Post by: ynp on October 18, 2007, 02:47:58 pm
I have been using my Sinar-M with the AF Module and AF lenses for about 6 months now. I assume that the Sinar-M is the closest thing to Hy6 cameras and Focus Trap and Focus bracketing were tested on the M platform. AFAIK the electronics of the Hy6 is based on the proven solutions of Sinar M and AF and the rest of the features should be only better on new Sinar/Rolleiflex cameras.

Focus Trap: It works on the M with the AF Module and all 4 AF lenses. It works better with the shorter lenses. I had some problems with the AF 180mm lens when I tried to shoot ballet  dancers using Focus Trap. It worked better on  slower subjects.

Focus Bracketing: It is the best feature of the M. I use Focus bracketing regularly for small 3D artwork shooting and Macro. I tried this with landscapes and processed the files through Helicon Focus software (http://www.heliconsoft.com/heliconfocus.html), easy and simple. When I upgraded up to my 33 mpx back I started to use Focus Bracketing very often. I am not a technical person,  and cannot explain this, but my 22 mpx back gets sharper foreground on landscape images than the 75LV. And I cannot find a tilt solution for my Sinar.

Shift: the 6008 lenses allow a lot of shift. And I wonder why nobody tried to move the sensor IN the back (not the adapter). There are some in-camera IS systems that are able to move the sensor up to several millimeters in different directions. Why not for shift?

BTW I was very surprised when somebody mentioned that Sinar expects to sell only 200 units per year globally. Where I live (Russia) Rolleiflex 6008 was very popular among professional photographers. There are plenty of lenses new and used. When Rollei introduced 6008AF/Integral + db20 couple years ago,  the 6008 with the digital back became the most popular choice for the studio photographers. They have the lenses. And they will be upgrading sooner or later.   H series Hasselblad are less popular with the pros, but  I know a lot of amateurs here who own  the very  new Hasselblads, up to 39 mpx. And they will be upgrading as well (or change the system). I bought my Sinarback e75 from one of them (he got a new H3D) and I paid  only $15K for the back.
Yevgeny
Title: Sinar Hy6 Prices
Post by: nicolaasdb on October 18, 2007, 03:07:23 pm
the only reason I would buy the Hy6--->> faster and multi point focussing...and that ain't happening and I see it never happening in the MF world.
So the 645AFDII and the 67proII will do it for me!
Title: Sinar Hy6 Prices
Post by: RobertJ on October 18, 2007, 05:29:04 pm
Excellent.

As always with medium format digital gear, these prices are absolutely ridiculous, and all the companies out there deserve a slap in the face.  But thanks anyway.  
Title: Sinar Hy6 Prices
Post by: Morgan_Moore on October 18, 2007, 05:35:12 pm
Quote
Excellent.

As always with medium format digital gear, these prices are absolutely ridiculous, and all the companies out there deserve a slap in the face.  But thanks anyway. 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147017\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Why do you think the prices are rediculous

It seems to me normal in any 'kit' be it hifi cars, cameras that a 10% improvement usually doubles the price

And if you dont like it the cheaper one is usually very adequate anyway

S
Title: Sinar Hy6 Prices
Post by: thsinar on October 18, 2007, 08:04:49 pm
.... and it was a silly mistake from either the person having said it or a printing error: those figures are obviously meant for Germany.

Thierry

Quote
That estimate was not for the number of Hy6 cameras to be sold under the Rolleiflex name. They will be represented by others in Russia. It also was not an estimate of how many AFi cameras Leaf hopes to sell.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147012\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: Sinar Hy6 Prices
Post by: hubell on October 19, 2007, 12:11:27 pm
Thierry:
The Hy6 is described having an integrated RGB sensor that feeds white balance info to the digital back for the automatic setting of white balance. Is this essentially a built-in color temperature meter?
I am curious how effective this is compared to high end DSLRs, which are way better than anything the med format back makers have provided.
Thanks.
Title: Sinar Hy6 Prices
Post by: eronald on October 19, 2007, 02:50:40 pm
Quote
Since Thierry cannot speak on behalf of Leaf (and I only speak on behalf of myself) I can reassure you: as long as a function of the camera is firmware based (meaning: not coming from software outside the camera) the Rolleiflex Hy6, Sinar Hy6 and Leaf AFi will act the same, because they share the same mechanics and the same firmware. The only mechanical difference that separates the Leaf from the others is the battery contacts in the handgrip, because the AFi uses the same batteries as the Leaf backs have. Sensible choice IMO.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146926\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I wonder whether Leaf will not be adding camera functionality eg. contrast-based focus to the back itself, with the back driving the camera.

Edmund
Title: Sinar Hy6 Prices
Post by: thsinar on October 20, 2007, 01:42:35 am
Dear hcubell,

I have nothing much to add to EPd's answer. So yes, it is certainly effective, by the way it is metering the color temp, not pointing directly to the scene and metering the light source instead of the image itself, as EPd mentioned it.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Thierry:
The Hy6 is described having an integrated RGB sensor that feeds white balance info to the digital back for the automatic setting of white balance. Is this essentially a built-in color temperature meter?
I am curious how effective this is compared to high end DSLRs, which are way better than anything the med format back makers have provided.
Thanks.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147216\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: Sinar Hy6 Prices
Post by: hubell on October 20, 2007, 12:26:22 pm
Quote
Dear hcubell,

I have nothing much to add to EPd's answer. So yes, it is certainly effective, by the way it is metering the color temp, not pointing directly to the scene and metering the light source instead of the image itself, as EPd mentioned it.

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147329\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Seems like a very creative approach to setting WB. I will be curious to see how effective it is in practice. Is the Hy6 the only camera that sets Auto WB this way?
Title: Sinar Hy6 Prices
Post by: Dustbak on October 20, 2007, 01:41:09 pm
D2x does the same, I believe.