Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: Josh-H on October 08, 2007, 01:35:40 am
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Anyone here regularly printing on the Hahnemuhle Photorag Pearl 320?
Happy with the results?
Seems to be a good option with a semi gloss surface with no OBA's with a good d-max and gamut.
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Hello,
I'm not exactly a pro by any stretch, but I have been using it since it was "launched" and have been happy with it. Once HP fixed the pizza wheel marks it was showing by installing the new exit wheel assembly in my Z3100 printer the prints look good. Just finishing up printing 30 or so images for a show coming up and they look good to my feeble brain anyway.
I am investing in getting The Digital Dog to create an ICC profile for the paper/printer so I can ensure when I start to print the colour images that things are where they should be.
My two cents. I am sure there a more experienced folks here who can give you much more detailed information about gamut, dmax etc.
good luck
Anyone here regularly printing on the Hahnemuhle Photorag Pearl 320?
Happy with the results?
Seems to be a good option with a semi gloss surface with no OBA's with a good d-max and gamut.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144533\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I've been using Photo Rag Pearl for a while and yes, I'm happy with it.
I previously used the standard Photo Rag 308 and as you would expect, the Pearl version certainly has more 'punch' and the surface is much more durable than the original 308.
I had tried Museo Silver Rag and Hahnemuhle Fine Art Pearl and didn't really like either. In addition the Silver Rag I got had serious Quality Control problems. Multiple types of surface defects. No such problems with either the Fine Art Pearl or Photo Rag Pearl.
I'm not into measuring gamut & dmax, but subjectively both are very good.
I use an Epson 7800 with Image Print 6.1
Regards
Frank
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I print exclusively on Photo Rag Pearl at the moment. I really like it. The texture is great (for me) - like a smooth egg shell with a nice sheen. I too was looking for an OBA-free paper. It's not brightest white, as you'd expect, but I like my prints a bit warm. I've had no problems whatsoever.
I do wonder how many people out there are using this paper, however. I never hear anything about it . . .
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I am using it exclusively for BW prints with the 3800. The paper weight is really close to the old Agfa fibre (warm tone) that I loved. There are pinwheel marks on the 3800. Single sheet loading only.
Wes
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The paper that I almost never see mentioned is Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Satin. I've printed a handful of black and white images and like it's surface a little better than the more sparkly Photo Rag Pearl samples I've seen. I haven't tried any of the Pearl paper myself, though. I've also played around a bit with Silver Max and really like the D-max of that paper, but really like a less textured surface for photos unless they are printed huge or are really atmospheric, without a lot of detail.
-Ron H.
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The paper that I almost never see mentioned is Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Satin. I've printed a handful of black and white images and like it's surface a little better than the more sparkly Photo Rag Pearl samples I've seen. I haven't tried any of the Pearl paper myself, though. I've also played around a bit with Silver Max and really like the D-max of that paper, but really like a less textured surface for photos unless they are printed huge or are really atmospheric, without a lot of detail.
-Ron H.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144986\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes! Photo rag satin is an acquired taste, but I love it for both color and B&W images. It has the same subtle eggshell texture the basic Photo rag has, and before the ink hits the page it would be hard to tell them apart. At least with the HP Z3100, the inked paper surface takes on a soft sheen that varies with tonality. This is especially obvious in the shadows and 3/4 tones, with the result that apparent tonal separation in these areas is improved. Black & white prints look almost etched in metal. Hahnemuhle fine art pearl has a "simpler" glossy texture that seems...almost boring by comparison.
But that's probably just me.
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Yes! Photo rag satin is an acquired taste, but I love it for both color and B&W images. It has the same subtle eggshell texture the basic Photo rag has, and before the ink hits the page it would be hard to tell them apart. At least with the HP Z3100, the inked paper surface takes on a soft sheen that varies with tonality. This is especially obvious in the shadows and 3/4 tones, with the result that apparent tonal separation in these areas is improved. Black & white prints look almost etched in metal. Hahnemuhle fine art pearl has a "simpler" glossy texture that seems...almost boring by comparison.
But that's probably just me.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144994\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I use HPR pearl and like both the colour and B&W print quality. Also it has a lovely feel if your handling unmounted prints. The base is slightly warm, but I thin much nicer than innova F-type warmtone which I think is too pink. Also, the finished texture is better.
I find HFAP has great punch on colour prints, but I've not used it extensively.
The HPR satin I swing between liking and not. The sheen appears where the nk is laid down, so it's an interesting effect.
I also like white etching.
Printing on an IPF5000.
Mike
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I am investing in getting The Digital Dog to create an ICC profile for the paper/printer so I can ensure when I start to print the colour images that things are where they should be.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144618\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Why are you having someone else create a profile for you when all the required tools are right there in the Z3100 already?
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Maybe it has something to do with the # of patches ...
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As thick as this paper is, can you use the tray with the ipf5000? I've tried photo rag 308 and the printer has a hard time picking it out of the tray.
Doug
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Anyone here regularly printing on the Hahnemuhle Photorag Pearl 320?
Happy with the results?
Seems to be a good option with a semi gloss surface with no OBA's with a good d-max and gamut.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144533\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I just started printing on the photo rag pearl, but mine is 344 gsm. I use it for images with a lot of detail and when I want good contrast, like architectural shots. I also use the Hannemuhle Photo Rag, the surface is softer looking, great for portraits. Both are excellent papers. I am printing on a HP Z2100, the paper is thick so it has to be loaded gingerly, but the printer handles it beautifully.
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I ordered a box of 8.5x11 to see if I could use it out of the cassette on the IPF 5000. No go. I get a "can't detect paper" message, however, if I bend the leading edge of the paper up a little, it will pick it up.
When I can get the paper to run through, the prints are as nice as I've seen out of this printer.
Doug
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I ordered a box of 8.5x11 to see if I could use it out of the cassette on the IPF 5000. No go. I get a "can't detect paper" message, however, if I bend the leading edge of the paper up a little, it will pick it up.
When I can get the paper to run through, the prints are as nice as I've seen out of this printer.
Doug
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146709\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm not familiar with this machine but i do know a few tricks with cassette printers when you want to print on special papers. If you load a load of normal paper underneath the special paper that might bring it up enough to be picked up.
David
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I ordered a box of 8.5x11 to see if I could use it out of the cassette on the IPF 5000. No go. I get a "can't detect paper" message, however, if I bend the leading edge of the paper up a little, it will pick it up.
When I can get the paper to run through, the prints are as nice as I've seen out of this printer.
Doug
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146709\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Doug,
sorry I didn't see your note earlier. I've only used the HPR pearl from a roll, but I have tried Innova F-type gloss in A4 sheets and the IPF struggles at the end when the paper moves between rollers. That is caused by the stifness of the paper and the curvature of the feed path from the tray. The HPR pearl is much softer, but I saw you'd had difficulty getting the printer to 'see' the paper.
Hope it works out OK
Mike
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I just started printing on the photo rag pearl, but mine is 344 gsm.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146499\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The Photo Rag Pearl is 320gsm; it seems the first boxes of this paper were mislabeled.
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These forums have been quite an education in paper for me. While much appreciated, it hasn't been a cheap journey. Being somewhat "in the know" now, I'm really surprised by how many people appear to prefer stocks like EEF, Gold Fiber Silk and / or Harman Gloss in comparison to Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Pearl.
Here is a cotton paper with incredible sharpness, great detail, great density, bright whites and no obas whatsoever. If the stock were too warm, dull or flat I'd consider settling for Gold Fiber Silk but why on earth would an archival, fine art printer want to do this when a performer like Photo Rag Pearl is out there? What's the point of oba's and baryta when Hahnemuhle looks as good or better without it?
In my opinion, Photo Rag Pearl is the greatest value and quality among papers in it's class; hands down. The question at this point is, what stock has or will have the same specifications with about half the gloss?
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These forums have been quite an education in paper for me. While much appreciated, it hasn't been a cheap journey. Being somewhat "in the know" now, I'm really surprised by how many people appear to prefer stocks like EEF, Gold Fiber Silk and / or Harman Gloss in comparison to Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Pearl.
Here is a cotton paper with incredible sharpness, great detail, great density, bright whites and no obas whatsoever. If the stock were too warm, dull or flat I'd consider settling for Gold Fiber Silk but why on earth would an archival, fine art printer want to do this when a performer like Photo Rag Pearl is out there? What's the point of oba's and baryta when Hahnemuhle looks as good or better without it?
In my opinion, Photo Rag Pearl is the greatest value and quality among papers in it's class; hands down. The question at this point is, what stock has or will have the same specifications with about half the gloss?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=196972\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Ahhh...Another captivated by the Hahnemuhle mystique! Seriously, I was prepared to be one too when I ordered a box of PRP after trying it in a sampler. But then along came Ilford's GFS. At less than half the price, and with a cooler off-white tone than the PRP, I much prefer it's smoother, finer grained slightly fibrous surface to the more pebbled PRP - about the same surface as Photo Rag 308, which I don't like as much as, say, Innova's Smooth Cotton High White 315 - likewise significantly less expensive, but with very similar color response.
Great papers all. What lucky folks we are to have the current range of choices explode so widely in the last year! I'm looking forward to trying some of Innova's Fibraprint series soon.
How about $20 for the 13 sheets of 8.5x11 PRP I have left from the box of 20 - shipping included?
Pete
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Ahhh...Another captivated by the Hahnemuhle mystique! Seriously, I was prepared to be one too when I ordered a box of PRP after trying it in a sampler. But then along came Ilford's GFS. At less than half the price, and with a cooler off-white tone than the PRP, I much prefer it's smoother, finer grained slightly fibrous surface to the more pebbled PRP - about the same surface as Photo Rag 308, which I don't like as much as, say, Innova's Smooth Cotton High White 315 - likewise significantly less expensive, but with very similar color response.
Great papers all. What lucky folks we are to have the current range of choices explode so widely in the last year! I'm looking forward to trying some of Innova's Fibraprint series soon.
How about $20 for the 13 sheets of 8.5x11 PRP I have left from the box of 20 - shipping included?
Pete
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=197081\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The style of surface texture and white brightness are certainly subjective, so I understand why somebody would prefer aspects of these features over what another stock offers. Nevertheless, the lack of OBAs in a bright paper is clearly a technical advantage over Gold Fiber Silk, Harman Gloss and Exhibition Fiber I'd think, from a permanence standpoint.
Have you noticed the increased sharpness / feature detail of Photo Rag Pearl over Gold Fiber Silk too? Print an image on each and compare the two. Not as big a leap when comparing either over Exhibition Fiber, but the Pearl is definitely a noticeable improvement over the Silk.
I guess you're offering a good deal on those remaining sheets of Peal but the smallest imagery I'm printing is over the 8.5 x 11 dimension. Thanks for the offer though!
I just wish this paper had half the gloss without a performance sacrifice elsewhere. There are less glossy options out there, but none without OBAs. Let me know if I'm mistaken though.
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Nevertheless, the lack of OBAs in a bright paper is clearly a technical advantage over Gold Fiber Silk, Harman Gloss and Exhibition Fiber I'd think, from a permanence standpoint.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=197413\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
What do you base that on? Can you point me to anything that shows OBAs affect print permanence? I know that over time the OBAs will no longer react but I'm not aware of that effecting print permanence.
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Have you noticed the increased sharpness / feature detail of Photo Rag Pearl over Gold Fiber Silk too? Print an image on each and compare the two. Not as big a leap when comparing either over Exhibition Fiber, but the Pearl is definitely a noticeable improvement over the Silk.
I guess you're offering a good deal on those remaining sheets of Peal but the smallest imagery I'm printing is over the 8.5 x 11 dimension. Thanks for the offer though!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=197413\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I have in the past printed the same image with Ilford GFS, Hahne. PR Pearl, PR Satin, FA Pearl and several other glossy family papers on my iPF5000, and found the GFS rivaling the Harmon Gloss in sharpness looking with a loupe, both slightly better than the Hahne. But these, to me, were trivial differences not noticed at anywhere near normal viewing. These were all printed with the same driver settings, and had essentially the same color response and density except for differences due base color, excepting the PR Satin, which is an entirely different beast.
Atlex's website states that the Ilford GFS is OBA free. I'd be interested in the source of info to the contrary.
Pete
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I have in the past printed the same image with Ilford GFS, Hahne. PR Pearl, PR Satin, FA Pearl and several other glossy family papers on my iPF5000, and found the GFS rivaling the Harmon Gloss in sharpness looking with a loupe, both slightly better than the Hahne. But these, to me, were trivial differences not noticed at anywhere near normal viewing. These were all printed with the same driver settings, and had essentially the same color response and density except for differences due base color, excepting the PR Satin, which is an entirely different beast.
Atlex's website states that the Ilford GFS is OBA free. I'd be interested in the source of info to the contrary.
Pete
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=197547\")
I can clearly see both a wider color gamut and improved sharpness on Photo Rag Pearl prints vs. Gold Fiber Silk. You've seem to performed some empirical tests though and I can only claim this is something I quickly perceive glancing at the prints.
As for OBAs in Gold Fiber Silk, thanks for the reference to Alex's site. I wonder if that's a typo though. My reasoning is that OBAs are too hot a topic for manufacturers to not state the absence of them in fine art papers, the use of OBAs in Baryta stocks is well documented and the following quotations claim or infer the use of OBAs in Gold Fiber Silk. Personally, I think Ilford should go on the record to confirm or deny the use of OBA's in GFS.
Good vs. not-so-good output profiles (AaronPhotog)
[a href=\"http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/lofiversion/index.php/t22889.html]http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/lo...php/t22889.html[/url]
As for UV, you can still build a good profile for papers that use a lot of optical brightening agents (OBA's). Good profiling programs take that into account fairly well. In my tests, it's easy to get an idea of the extent of OBA use. I know that Andrew (who also has an excellent book on color management) advises to stay away from OBA's but they are there, like it or not, in some measure, and it's hard to avoid them altogether. The brightener salesmen are doing their jobs (silver print papers have them too). The Harman and Ilford papers discussed in this post use them sparingly. The Epson and Hahnemule FB papers use them a bit more.
On the Use of Optical Brighteners in Fine Art Prints and Photographs
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/news.html (http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/news.html)
What prompted my interest in OBAs was the recent introduction of a new category of inkjet papers aimed at the high-end photographic and fine art printmaking audience. These new papers are often described as very closely resembling the look and feel of traditional fiber-base photographic papers. Crane Museo Silver Rag, Hahnemühle Fine Art Baryta, Harmon glossy FB AI, Innova F-type Gloss and F-type Warmtone, Ilford Gold Fiber Silk Paper, Epson Exhibition Fiber Paper, are examples of this new retro look just to name a few. Some of the new papers also contain OBAs at a significant level, and their paper surface color is impressively bright white. For inkjet papers that do contain OBAs, the amount and location of the incorporated OBA varies significantly. A blacklight lamp source commonly available at hardware or home improvement stores can help the end-user to identify on a relative basis how much, if any, an inkjet paper surface depends on OBAs to achieve its initial color. OBAs can often be found in the image receiving layer, in the paper core, in anti-curl layers on the back side of the paper, and in combinations of these regions.
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What do you base that on? Can you point me to anything that shows OBAs affect print permanence? I know that over time the OBAs will no longer react but I'm not aware of that effecting print permanence.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=197433\")
Here's the backup, Ron...
[a href=\"http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/Epson_Exhibition_Fiber.shtml?main_page=product_info&cPath=20&products_id=173]http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/...products_id=173[/url]
Exhibition Fiber Review:
Finally, there is the issue of Optical Brighteners or OBA’s. Again, I am now old enough to have seen prints on papers with OBA’s after a number of years, compared to prints of roughly equal age that were printed on papers with no OBA’s. And here again, contrary to the manufacturer’s claims that as the OBA’s deteriorate the prints would look the same, the prints that I have seen from papers with OBA’s look much worse when the OBA’s fade than the prints that were originally printed on papers without OBA’s.
Call me paranoid, but I am very suspicious of accelerated aging tests. They are a good comparison tool, but I do not think they really can tell us how long a print will last. What we do know for a fact is that mold made Fine Art papers that are 100% acid free cotton rag are still with us after 500 years (some of these were actually made by companies like Hahnemuhle and Arches, who now make photographic papers) . We also know that oil paintings which are pigments suspended in oil can last many hundreds of years. So good pigments properly adhered good papers will hopefully last a long time.
Therefore, I finally settled on a paper with a 100% acid-free pure cotton rag base, and a semi-glossy coating that allows me to use Photo Black ink. This is also a paper that has no OBA’s and is very thick (344 gsm) with a wonderful tactile feel. The paper is Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Pearl. The advantages of this paper are clear. On my Epson 9800, I use the “Ultrasmooth Fine Art” media setting to deliver a lot more ink to the paper. As a result, I can get an outstanding D-Max of 2.4 (measured with my Macbeth TD 1224 transmission/reflection densitometer) and a very good color gamut.
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/news.html (http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/news.html)
10 Megalux-hour Progress and Time Off for Good Behavior
The first batch of 20 samples I listed in my news post on January 1, 2008 reached the 10 Megalux-hour exposure level in light fade testing last week. They have been measured, and small yet real changes have occurred. Of particular interest with respect to optical brighteners in inkjet papers is the fact that a loss of fluorescence has already happened in the OBA-containing test samples. Evaluation under blacklight illumination and measurements with a spectrophotometer easily confirm the subtle paper "yellowing" which is a consequence of the loss of OBA activity. Yet OBA fading is not the only change that has been detected. For example, the Epson R1800/ MIS R800 Ultrachrome Equivalent ink/ Epson Premium Luster Photo Paper combination demonstrates a small but noticeable loss of yellow colorant. The yellow colorant fading is especially affecting the light skin tone colors and the neutral gray patches in the test print. The R1800 does not use photo gray inks and thus prints composite grays by mixing cyan, magenta, and yellow inks. Loss of yellow colorant is causing a noticeable shift towards a cooler appearance in the light skin tones and gray scale patches. In contrast, the Epson R1800/ MIS R800 Ultrachrome Equivalent ink/ Red River Ultra Pro Gloss Plus is showing less fade at this point in test as are both R1800 samples made with the Epson OEM inks. It remains to be seen whether these early performance rankings will hold up as more light exposure accumulates.
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The first reference is opinion on OBAs in which the author is skeptical of the validity of accelerated aging tests.
The second reference is scientifically conducted using an accelerated aging test. Even Mark says that it comes down to personal choice. His test is rigorous but not frightening.
All this outrage about OBAs corrupting art and then so many people print on plastic. Weird.
Anyway, here's Hahnemuhle's take on OBAs.
Click here. (http://www.hahnemuehle.com/index.php?mid=1595&lng=us)
Pick your poison. Personally, I'm happy to print on HP Hahnemuhle Smooth Fine Art paper with my Z3100. I'm willing to take that chance that 200 years from now someone will curse me for my dastardly use of OBAs.
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The first reference is opinion on OBAs in which the author is skeptical of the validity of accelerated aging tests.
The second reference is scientifically conducted using an accelerated aging test. Even Mark says that it comes down to personal choice. His test is rigorous but not frightening.
All this outrage about OBAs corrupting art and then so many people print on plastic. Weird.
Anyway, here's Hahnemuhle's take on OBAs.
Click here. (http://www.hahnemuehle.com/index.php?mid=1595&lng=us)
Pick your poison. Personally, I'm happy to print on HP Hahnemuhle Smooth Fine Art paper with my Z3100. I'm willing to take that chance that 200 years from now someone will curse me for my dastardly use of OBAs.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=197640\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I agree with you (and many who post here) if they feel it's easier to make great prints on OBA stocks. I'm ultimately according with local opinion though, because some prefer the warmth of non-OBA stocks and all the top fine art papers are aesthetically on par with each other.
It can take more work to get our desired "OBA-like" results when printing to non-OBA rag stock. We have to fight the warmth and an increased tendency to curl or ripple. Regardless, a stock like Photo Rag Pearl shows on par with GFS, EEF & Gloss FG.
My prior comments on this thread focus on the significantly improved permanence Photo Rag Pearl may have beyond OBA stocks in it's class. If professionals notice color shifts on OBA stocks within a few months, it's worth consideration. If a collector buys a small, $5,000 print to see it shift 20 years later, let's consider non-OBA rag stocks. If it's only a few hours more work per print for piece of mind, ain't it worth it?
I'm curious about what I've read regarding galleries' aversion to OBAs, gloss and non-fiber pigment stocks. Sure, if a renown photographer offers a gallery a show - they may be less inclined to kick back pigment prints over stock. Many of us wouldn't turn down big profit opportunity. But will new talent meet as much acceptance when it comes to stock? Hopefully there are some gallery curators / owners on this blog that can chime in with their opinions.
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The style of surface texture and white brightness are certainly subjective, so I understand why somebody would prefer aspects of these features over what another stock offers. Nevertheless, the lack of OBAs in a bright paper is clearly a technical advantage over Gold Fiber Silk, Harman Gloss and Exhibition Fiber I'd think, from a permanence standpoint.
(Very late response that I hope will be useful to those who stumble upon this thread via a web search.)
For the record, Ilford Gold Fibre Silk does not contain optical brighteners. That fact has been established by careful third party testing.
Rob
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What do you base that on? Can you point me to anything that shows OBAs affect print permanence? I know that over time the OBAs will no longer react but I'm not aware of that effecting print permanence.
In the last couple of years of research on digital print media I've been able to easily document both significant lightfastness issues and gas fading issues with OBAs in inkjet papers. While many people rationalize that the paper will merely return to its "natural" paper white state, this "yellowing" effect when non-uniform can be quite disconcerting to the serious print collector, and no matter how you rationalize it, a bright white inkjet paper selected by an artist with that bright white paper color in mind will fail to keep the pristine quality of the original print when the OBA fades.
Some of my results are publicly accessible on my website. One such result to start with might be:
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/cgi-bin/...NDU2Nzg5LyoxMzM (http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/cgi-bin/mrk/_4121ZGxkLzBeMjAwMDAwMDAwMTIzNDU2Nzg5LyoxMzM)
kind regards,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com (http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com)
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(Very late response that I hope will be useful to those who stumble upon this thread via a web search.)
For the record, Ilford Gold Fibre Silk does not contain optical brighteners. That fact has been established by careful third party testing.
Rob
I guess it depends on how one defines "No OBAs". IGFS contains little or no OBAs in the ink receptor coating, but OBAs are unmistakably present in the paper base. This is easy to confirm with a blacklight you can purchase at a local hardware store like Home Depot. So, although not OBA-free by strict definition, because IGFS doesn't have the ink receptor coating loaded up with OBAs like some other inkjet papers in its class, the longevity issues aren't so serious. But it's definitely not OBA-free. An example of a comparable yet truly OBA-free paper would be something like HN photo rag Baryta. Put these two papers side-by-side under a blacklight, and you will see what I mean.
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com (http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com)
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The first reference is opinion on OBAs in which the author is skeptical of the validity of accelerated aging tests.
The second reference is scientifically conducted using an accelerated aging test. Even Mark says that it comes down to personal choice. His test is rigorous but not frightening.
All this outrage about OBAs corrupting art and then so many people print on plastic. Weird.
Anyway, here's Hahnemuhle's take on OBAs.
Click here. (http://www.hahnemuehle.com/index.php?mid=1595&lng=us)
Pick your poison. Personally, I'm happy to print on HP Hahnemuhle Smooth Fine Art paper with my Z3100. I'm willing to take that chance that 200 years from now someone will curse me for my dastardly use of OBAs.
The link above didn't work for me but I found it at their site at the following address:
http://www.hahnemuehle.com/news/us/488/242...t-of-oba-s.html (http://www.hahnemuehle.com/news/us/488/242/hahnemuehle-fineart-on-the-subject-of-oba-s.html)
This is from the link above:
William Turner (category 1, no optical brightener) and Photo Rag® (category 2, a minimum of optical brightener) have been tested in combination with the new Vivera inks from HP, at the renowned Wilhelm Imaging Research Institute Inc. Over a simulated test period of 200 years no appreciable change in the whiteness of the paper was detected. Even in the case of the papers belonging to category 3, the bright white papers, after testing by the German FOGRA institute remained stable for a test period of between 20 and 50 years.
I've been mulling the use of OBAs. I worked with FAP and PRP and found that FAP had a bit more pop to it. Based on the comments above, I don’t see a downside to using paper with OBAs.
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This is from the link above:
William Turner (category 1, no optical brightener) and Photo Rag® (category 2, a minimum of optical brightener) have been tested in combination with the new Vivera inks from HP, at the renowned Wilhelm Imaging Research Institute Inc. Over a simulated test period of 200 years no appreciable change in the whiteness of the paper was detected. Even in the case of the papers belonging to category 3, the bright white papers, after testing by the German FOGRA institute remained stable for a test period of between 20 and 50 years.
I've been mulling the use of OBAs. I worked with FAP and PRP and found that FAP had a bit more pop to it. Based on the comments above, I don’t see a downside to using paper with OBAs.
Hahnemuhle uses OBAs for the most part in their papers with judicious restraint and never puts any in the microporous coating layer only in the paper core. Hence, the amount of "yellowing" is not too pronounced as the OBAs begin to fade. Keeping the OBA out of the microporous coating makes a huge difference on susceptibility of the OBAs to light fade and gas fade rates. Recall how dyes are very sensitive to fade in microporous papers, thus the industry introduced swellable polymer coating for dyes to improve both light fade and gas fade resistance. OBA's are dyes, and subject to the exact same chemistry incompatibility issues when located in the microporous coatings.
I'm not one who insists that artists concerned with print longevity must always avoid all papers with any OBAs (in fact some fine art papers without OBA will change paper color as well due to light bleaching), but I will tell you that the ultra bright white inkjet papers with lots of OBAs located in the microporous coating layers are very prone to OBA burnout in just a few years. Not to single out Epson on this as just about all major inkjet paper suppliers have similar offerings, but who among us hasn't seen noticeable yellowing in the just a few years when using Epson Premium Presentation paper, formerly called matte paper heavyweight. Yet this paper gets 100+ year ratings in industry tests with Epson K3 inks. The simple reason is that the most commonly cited industry tests use a fairly liberal consumer tolerance for allowed paper yellowing. OBA burnout generally doesn't cause enough paper color change to trigger this consumer tolerance for failure, so it goes unreported. However, it occurs much sooner than the 100+ year rating would suggest, and any serious collector or curator would notice the change. Simply put, bright white papers lose that pristine whiteness which was the basis for selecting them in the first place. Maybe that isn't a concern to some, and it's not necessarily the "end of life" of a print, but it is definitely a noticeable change.
BTW, both FAP and PRP are among those HN papers that keep the OBA concentration to a minimum. They do pretty well in my light fade tests with OEM pigmented inks, although HN's OBA-free papers generally perform even better. HN Bamboo is an example of an OBA-free "naturally" warm color paper that light bleaches a little whiter in my tests with comparable change in paper color to some of the OBA containing papers. It just goes a little "bluer" rather than "yellower" as it bleaches.
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MHMG - I cant resist asking you: what about Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Satin? in longevity: it's my favorite art paper. Is it like the HN pearl? or the rag? it seems like an in-between paper
Howard
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MHMG - I cant resist asking you: what about Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Satin? in longevity: it's my favorite art paper. Is it like the HN pearl? or the rag? it seems like an in-between paper
Howard
I have one sample of HN Photo Rag Satin in test so far, contributed by an AaI&A member printing with an Epson 3800. The sample is at the 30 megalux hour exposure mark which isn't really far enough along to make full comparison to other HN papers. But so far so good.
HN reserves the term "rag" for its cotton base papers. Others like "fine art"... are high quality alpha cellulose paper. Cotton papers are considered by many to be superior in thermal aging characteristics, but both substrates can last for centuries if kept in moderate temperature and RH conditions, so it will probably be the image layer coatings and choice of colorants that will ultimately dictate the print durability.
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I've been mulling the use of OBAs. I worked with FAP and PRP and found that FAP had a bit more pop to it. Based on the comments above, I don’t see a downside to using paper with OBAs.
My take on OBA's is pretty straightforward. I caught a video interview with Henry Wilhelm (here on LL, if I'm not mistaken) in which the guru of print permanence specifically addressed the issue. He made the point that we as artists may spend a great deal of time and effort getting the color balance and tonality of an image exactly right in the final print. All that effort goes for naught when fading OBA's cause a differential shift in the highlights. Sure, the paper base and the ink won't change, but the tonality of the highlights may shift substantially toward the warmer end of the spectrum as those blue OBA effects fade away. I don't want that to happen to any print I sell to someone else as art.
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Regarding the Photo Rag Pearl and Photo Rag Satin, are these at their best with MK or PK inks? I had the feeling the Hahnemuhle regarded the Satin as a PK paper, but a colleague always uses MK with the Epson 4800 when printing on the Photo Rag Satin. His prints look good to me.
John-
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My take on OBA's is pretty straightforward. I caught a video interview with Henry Wilhelm (here on LL, if I'm not mistaken) in which the guru of print permanence specifically addressed the issue. He made the point that we as artists may spend a great deal of time and effort getting the color balance and tonality of an image exactly right in the final print. All that effort goes for naught when fading OBA's cause a differential shift in the highlights. Sure, the paper base and the ink won't change, but the tonality of the highlights may shift substantially toward the warmer end of the spectrum as those blue OBA effects fade away. I don't want that to happen to any print I sell to someone else as art.
Yes, but as I noted earlier, even OBA-free papers can discolor as much as papers containing moderate amounts of OBA. So, the answer isn't so clear cut as simply refraining from use of all inkjet papers with OBA content. Moreover, a subtle discoloration of the paper over time can under certain circumstances offset subtle fading of the inks. For example, pigmented inks with a weak yellow will show skintone highlights begin to move towards too "blue", but this can be counter balanced at least in the early stages of fade by the paper color shifting towards yellow. The bottom line is we need to test total systems response at multiple exposure levels, and to do that we need a color and tonal accuracy metric that evaluates the overall image color, lightness, and CONTRAST. This was my motivation to invent the I* metric which was published in 2004 and is open source (anyone can use it). But to date, the industry has been reluctant even to examine the I* metric as a superior FOM ("figure of merit") for print permanence probably because those wonderfully high display life numbers generated by the traditional test methods are all the marketing guys need to be very happy. IMHO, the artists' community has also concluded for the most part that the longevity issues have been resolved satisfactorily and that any pigmented ink/paper combo is more than adequate. If I believed that, I wouldn't be doing any light fade testing anymore.
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MHMG,
First I wanted to say that after your thoughtful reply I read the analysis you referenced in an earlier post. It was a very good effort. I could see where a lot of time and expense would go into a broader study. As example, one of the key details of interest to me is the effect of humidity upon paper aging. In this area we have high relative humidity. Over a year the average is between roughly 49% to 88%. Your test area was lower in this regard. I predict that a broader study that would show the results of the effects of differing humidity and temperature ranges would probably show some pretty pronounced variables. But I digress. I thank you for making this effort and also for sharing it!
> Hahnemuhle uses OBAs for the most part in their papers with judicious restraint and never puts any in the microporous coating layer only in the paper core. Hence, the amount of "yellowing" is not too pronounced as the OBAs begin to fade. Keeping the OBA out of the microporous coating makes a huge difference on susceptibility of the OBAs to light fade and gas fade rates.
Which illustrates that not only do not all manufacturers use the same amounts of OBA’s, but that there is a large influence upon stability which is based on manufacturing techniques.
> I'm not one who insists that artists concerned with print longevity must always avoid all papers with any OBAs (in fact some fine art papers without OBA will change paper color as well due to light bleaching), but I will tell you that the ultra bright white inkjet papers with lots of OBAs located in the microporous coating layers are very prone to OBA burnout in just a few years.
Agreed on all parts. In the event there was some ambiguity in my earlier comments, I'm making reference to OBAs used in a few types of Hahnemuhle papers.
> but who among us hasn't seen noticeable yellowing in the just a few years when using Epson Premium Presentation paper, formerly called matte paper heavyweight. Yet this paper gets 100+ year ratings in industry tests with Epson K3 inks. The simple reason is that the most commonly cited industry tests use a fairly liberal consumer tolerance for allowed paper yellowing. OBA burnout generally doesn't cause enough paper color change to trigger this consumer tolerance for failure, so it goes unreported
While I haven’t used Epson papers, you have made excellent observations and a thoughtful warning about the face-value of stability statements. You also hint that there is a degree of acceptance on the part of consumers for this process.
> and any serious collector or curator would notice the change.
Here is the crux of the debate. If prints are stated as made to the standards of serious collectors and/or curators then there would be a case of misrepresentation on the part of the artist. If the artist makes no claim of using museum quality materials, then your example consumers have nothing to complain about.
If someone approached me and said, does the paper you use have OBAs? I would point them towards the manufacturer's site for the particular paper. If they asked for a print using a non-OBA containing paper, I’d be inclined to do so with some minor warning about the differences the paper would produce. After all, one of the basic rules of customer services is to give the customer what they want.
> Simply put, bright white papers lose that pristine whiteness which was the basis for selecting them in the first place
Except that not all papers are bright white, and, as indicated, both the volume of OBAs and where they are used in the manufacturing process have a large impact. As a result, and as is nearly always the case, the simple answer is misleading.
> BTW, both FAP and PRP are among those HN papers that keep the OBA concentration to a minimum. They do pretty well in my light fade tests with OEM pigmented inks, although HN's OBA-free papers generally perform even better. HN Bamboo is an example of an OBA-free "naturally" warm color paper that light bleaches a little whiter in my tests with comparable change in paper color to some of the OBA containing papers. It just goes a little "bluer" rather than "yellower" as it bleaches.
I will be very interested to read of your other tests. If you’re okay with it, I’d like to link your web site when I complete mine.
Based on your recommendation, I'm also gonna get a roll or HN Bamboo.
Thanks!
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I will be very interested to read of your other tests. If you’re okay with it, I’d like to link your web site when I complete mine.
Based on your recommendation, I'm also gonna get a roll or HN Bamboo.
Thanks!
I was pointing out that HN Bamboo is an example of a paper without OBAs that also shows subtle media "white point" color shift upon exposure to light. Not sure that this constitutes a "recommendation", but no doubt many artists will like this paper, and indeed I like this paper. But I'm also an informed user that is testing it specifically with the inks that I use so that I can provide knowledgeable information about it's print permanence characteristics. I'm also testing HN Bamboo samples on various ink sets submitted by other members of the AaI&A digital print research program. The only way to speak knowledgeably about specific printer/ink/paper performance is to directly test the combination both in terms of initial print quality and print durability. All other conclusions require a greater degree of speculation.
You are more than welcome to link to my site.
I hope to hear more about your testing as well in the near future.
kind regards,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com (http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com)
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(Very late response that I hope will be useful to those who stumble upon this thread via a web search.)
For the record, Ilford Gold Fibre Silk does not contain optical brighteners. That fact has been established by careful third party testing.
Rob
Sorry, there certainly are OBA in the media base on all and every sample I have here. Not a little but a lot. Harman is worse, it is loaded and glows like a darn Christmas bulb in high amounts of UV.
There are reduced amounts in the Warm versions , I do have samples but haven't tested as I don't like the paper white on either without OBA.
As consumers become more aware of what OBA does, what it is used for , then producers will have to inform or educate us on proven test results from various sources.
Mark and Henry worked together for a very long time. Both are as competent as one can be . One of them is a lot closer to users than the other. You can guess which one has a less commercial target.....................
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I guess it depends on how one defines "No OBAs". IGFS contains little or no OBAs in the ink receptor coating, but OBAs are unmistakably present in the paper base. This is easy to confirm with a blacklight you can purchase at a local hardware store like Home Depot. So, although not OBA-free by strict definition, because IGFS doesn't have the ink receptor coating loaded up with OBAs like some other inkjet papers in its class, the longevity issues aren't so serious. But it's definitely not OBA-free. An example of a comparable yet truly OBA-free paper would be something like HN photo rag Baryta. Put these two papers side-by-side under a blacklight, and you will see what I mean.
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com (http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com)
Mark and Neil, I may have to bow to your superior knowledge and experience, but I was basing my statement about OBA's on this article from the SWPP:
http://www.swpp.co.uk/professional_imagema...-gold-fibre.htm (http://www.swpp.co.uk/professional_imagemaker/paper-chase-gold-fibre.htm)
Perhaps they are in error, but they flatly state regarding Gold Fibre Silk's paper base that "The media is 310gsm with a measured calliper of 320 microns. In natural north daylight it looks just a little creamy and there was no evidence of optical brighteners in either the UV-booth or from the spectral trace, indeed the spectral trace was almost perfectly flat from 360 to 690nm."
Rob