Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Bernd B. on September 29, 2007, 08:03:27 am
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How does an Aptus 75 compare to a Sinarback emotion75 ? Afaik they share the same sensor. The Sinarback has no fan. How do they compare at higher ISO? Is the Aptus superior because of its active cooling? I heard the eMotion 22 has a lot of noise on higher ISO, so I wonder how an eMotion 75 behaves. Is a Sinarback eMotion 75 recommended for a people photographer?
I like the idea of the changeable adapters.
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Others will be able to answer this better than I can but...
The e75 has interchangeable mounts, 6 GB of built-in solid-state memory, and an OLED display.
The Leaf's display is larger, afaik.
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Others will be able to answer this better than I can but...
The e75 has interchangeable mounts, 6 GB of built-in solid-state memory, and an OLED display.
The Leaf's display is larger, afaik.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142620\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The thing that interests me first is image characteristics (color rendition) and noise at higher iso. If you can live with the smaller display and like the interchangeable adapters instead, are the results more or less the same or does the Aptus have the edge? The Aptus 75s is a bit faster, but one picture every 1,5 sec. as the eMotion 75 offers sounds fast enough for me.
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Dear Bernd,
Concerning the cooling fan not available on the eMotion: the eMotion series have purposely no fan built-in since they have an "intelligent" power management. The CCD and the rest of the electronics are "off" when no image is taken, and avoid this way to get heated up.
So far I know, the Aptus has no active cooling system (Peltier Element).
I would suggest you to make a comparison side-by-side, concerning the ISO behaviour: you should then notice that shooting at ISO 100 with the eMotion 75 will most probably be the same as shooting at ISO 200 with another back, if not more. With all the comparisons I have done so far, this was the case, that the eMotion backs are at least 1 full stop more sensitive (lower ISO setting for the same exposure/density under the same light conditions). But again, try this out yourself with a side-by-side test. Then only you should be able to compare the noise level and behaviour of the backs.
I am at your disposal for any other question or request.
Best regards,
Thierry
How does an Aptus 75 compare to a Sinarback emotion75 ? Afaik they share the same sensor. The Sinarback has no fan. How do they compare at higher ISO? Is the Aptus superior because of its active cooling? I heard the eMotion 22 has a lot of noise on higher ISO, so I wonder how an eMotion 75 behaves. Is a Sinarback eMotion 75 recommended for a people photographer?
I like the idea of the changeable adapters.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142612\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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interchangeable mounts?
Sounds interesting...do other manufacturers only include scewed-on or fixed adapters?
Do all sinarbacks feature this flexible mount?
grtz
Mike
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Dear Mike,
Yes, all Sinarbacks do offer interchangeable adapters and since the begining. All you need to do when changing the camera platform is to change the adapter plate by unscrewing 3 to 4 screws (depending which back type) and mount the new adapter. An operation which is done in less than 2 minutes.
Best regards,
Thierry
interchangeable mounts?
Sounds interesting...do other manufacturers only include scewed-on or fixed adapters?
Do all sinarbacks feature this flexible mount?
grtz
Mike
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142627\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I would suggest you to make a comparison side-by-side, concerning the ISO behaviour: you should then notice that shooting at ISO 100 with the eMotion 75 will most probably be the same as shooting at ISO 200 with another back, if not more. With all the comparisons I have done so far, this was the case, that the eMotion backs are at least 1 full stop more sensitive (lower ISO setting for the same exposure/density under the same light conditions). But again, try this out yourself with a side-by-side test. Then only you should be able to compare the noise level and behaviour of the backs.
I am at your disposal for any other question or request.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142624\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I have had the same experience that the ISO ratings for the eMotion are much more conservative and generally an average of a stop faster than comparative backs. Also the new noise control in Captureshop makes a big difference in the amount and handling of noise. Although - Thierry chime in here - I still have not been able to get the detail window to show the result of my adjustment, I still have to open the entire image before I can see what the adjustment did, and once open, it displays no additional adjustments that I make. Using CS 5.5.1.
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
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Dear Steve,
The detail window does show the change, you don't have to open the entire image.
However, when changing the amount or type of noise filtering (Chrominance, Luminance, or all the other possibilities like Fine Tunings/Smooth Edge/Low Frequencies) you need to re-click the image area to get the result in the detail window: in other words, once the detail window shows a certain setting, a new setting change needs to be re-interpolated.
This is unlike the "Sharpening" setting, where a change of USM will show up automatically in the detail window, without having tho re-click.
Hope this make sense and that I expressed myself clearly enough?
As for ISO: yes, we are very conservative concerning ISO numbers, and I can only strongly suggest to compare side by side with the same light and f-stop. One will most probably end up with comparing ISO 100 on the eMotion and ISO 200 or even more on another back, for the same density/exposure: which means in clear that the noise has to be compared accordingly to this.
Best regards,
Thierry
I have had the same experience that the ISO ratings for the eMotion are much more conservative and generally an average of a stop faster than comparative backs. Also the new noise control in Captureshop makes a big difference in the amount and handling of noise. Although - Thierry chime in here - I still have not been able to get the detail window to show the result of my adjustment, I still have to open the entire image before I can see what the adjustment did, and once open, it displays no additional adjustments that I make. Using CS 5.5.1.
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142643\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Concerning the cooling fan not available on the eMotion: the eMotion series have purposely no fan built-in since they have an "intelligent" power management. The CCD and the rest of the electronics are "off" when no image is taken, and avoid this way to get heated up.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142624\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Like any object, heat is absorbed from the environment by the back. The internal temperature increases outdoors on a warm sunny day. Also, when the back is in use the electronics generate heat.
What method is used to dissipate the heat that is unavoidable during use?
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The greatest heat that can influence a sensor is the electrical current and when it is powered. If the sun does hit the casing, or when the external temperature is very high, no fan will be able to deal with this efficiently, only an active cooling system (Peltier Element) like in the Sinarbacks from the previous generation (SB 23, 43, 44 and 54).
The reason why there is no fan inside the eMotions is because of the Dalsa's sensor "Pulse-Flush" design which allows an instantaneous reset of the whole CCD (Kodak CCDs needs to
be run actively in the so-called "keep clean" mode, thus higher power consumption and more heat generated). Pulse-flush allows leaving the sensor in the idle mode and to fully remove all accumulated electrons before going active, thus lower power consumption and less noise produced. Dalsa sensors therefore also have a much lower power consumption than Kodak CCDs.
Best regards,
Thierry
Like any object, heat is absorbed from the environment by the back. The internal temperature increases outdoors on a warm sunny day. Also, when the back is in use the electronics generate heat.
What method is used to dissipate the heat that is unavoidable during use?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142687\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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interchangeable mounts?
Sounds interesting...do other manufacturers only include scewed-on or fixed adapters?
Do all sinarbacks feature this flexible mount?
grtz
Mike
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142627\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Phase One and Leaf backs are a closed system design. The user can not change the mount and is locked in to one 6x6 or 645 system. It is possible to adapt up to a larger format such as a view camera for example.
Sinar and Hasselblad CF backs are an open system design. The user can at any time change camera mount easily and quickly.
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Phase One and Leaf backs are a closed system design. The user can not change the mount and is locked in to one 6x6 or 645 system. It is possible to adapt up to a larger format such as a view camera for example.
Sinar and Hasselblad CF backs are an open system design. The user can at any time change camera mount easily and quickly.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142690\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
There are of course adapters that will allow you to use Leaf back which is dedicated lets say to H mount on Rz, Fuji68 etc. and use the rotation. The plate snaps on in two seconds which is faster than taking off 4 screws and shimming the back.
Andre
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If the sun does hit the casing, or when the external temperature is very high, no fan will be able to deal with this efficiently, only an active cooling system (Peltier Element) like in the Sinarbacks from the previous generation (SB 23, 43, 44 and 54).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142689\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
So if a car doesn't have an air-conditioner (active cooling), there is no value in rolling down the windows and turning on a fan (passive cooling)?
The Sinar 54M uses Peltier connected to the external housing to radiate heat through the housing. Does the eMotion use a heat-sink or other method to remove heat build-up by radiating through the housing?
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Thierry,
Not trying to bag on your product, as I just ordered $85k in gear from Jim in the US office and will give it a fair shot when available. I must also add that I have never even held a sinar digital product. But every dealer I have dealt with has told me that the Sinar is great for product or none moving settings, but after 100 ASA it is no good.
When upgrading from my P25 I looked at everythig and asked advice from everyone. I used the Aptus extensively and at the time of the upgrade V11 was not out yet and when I had been using V10 I left Leaf and decided I would not go back. I never used the H3d because I did not want to be locked into a system, although all I use is the H1/H2 set up for Phase. But I am hoping to get a useable solution for the H1 mount to RZ interface plate. I do miss the RZ, but think that the Hy6 may fix this for me.
My dealers were advising Hasselabld when going into my new back and the CF was quite attractive and the files I was sent at 400 looked pretty good. But then there was flexcolor with all its little mystery bugs and hiccups. I don't care what adobe is comig out with, I am not a fan of LR and love C1. Adobe is for PS. So I went to a P45 in the meantime.
But when your dealer network is telling you not to go with a product they carry and telling you to go XX route, it is quite interesting.
I will be tesitng out the Sinar system when it is readily available with the new emotion. I also hear for tethered studio shooting the Evolution 75H is quite amazing at 100. But as photographers that own our equipment we need a system that can go from tethered shooting to location shooting without a problem.
The only solution that I have found that steps up to the plate is the PhaseOne product. At the moment that is! I am not on a Phase band wagon. I just want something that works without a glitch. They have been the only product I have used that have not failed me.
I hope the Sinar product gets out into the market place, as I do for all the brands. It is just good for all of the shooters.
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There are of course adapters that will allow you to use Leaf back which is dedicated lets say to H mount on Rz, Fuji68 etc. and use the rotation. The plate snaps on in two seconds which is faster than taking off 4 screws and shimming the back.
Andre
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=142694\")
This is why I was careful to state that you can not switch between 6x6 and 645 systems. While an adapter to the existing mount to a larger system (6x7 or 6x8) allows physical mounting of the back it doesn't interface the electronics of the back to the electronics of the camera. An example would be the mounting the leaf to a Fuji GX680 which requires an external sync box in the Kapture Group adapter. [a href=\"http://www.kapturegroup.com/leaf/leaf.html]Leaf/GX 680 Link[/url]
This is not the case with a Hasselblad or Sinar adapter as the electronic interface is incorporated in the design of the back and adapter.
Changing the adapter in no way requires any "shim", unless the body is out of tolerance. If the body is out of tolerance, then you can compensate by adding a micro-thin foil shim.
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Interesting, I always thought you had to choose a specific mount and the consumer wouyld be locked in to a camera system, at least for the life-span of the DB.
Interesting little detail.
thanks
Dear Mike,
Yes, all Sinarbacks do offer interchangeable adapters and since the begining. All you need to do when changing the camera platform is to change the adapter plate by unscrewing 3 to 4 screws (depending which back type) and mount the new adapter. An operation which is done in less than 2 minutes.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142629\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Just out of curiosity...is it possible to attach a Hasselblad CF back to a Mamya 645?
One would think that Hasselblad doesn't allow this since they now moved to a closed system.
How about the upcoming Hy6/ AFi camera? Compatible with a hassy CF back?
Are the adapters third-party for the most part, or mostly manufacturer branded?
Phase One and Leaf backs are a closed system design. The user can not change the mount and is locked in to one 6x6 or 645 system. It is possible to adapt up to a larger format such as a view camera for example.
Sinar and Hasselblad CF backs are an open system design. The user can at any time change camera mount easily and quickly.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142690\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Just out of curiosity...is it possible to attach a Hasselblad CF back to a Mamya 645? YES
One would think that Hasselblad doesn't allow this since they now moved to a closed system.
How about the upcoming Hy6/ AFi camera? Compatible with a hassy CF back? NO
Are the adapters third-party for the most part, or mostly manufacturer branded? BOTH
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142706\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Just out of curiosity...is it possible to attach a Hasselblad CF back to a Mamya 645?
One would think that Hasselblad doesn't allow this since they now moved to a closed system.
How about the upcoming Hy6/ AFi camera? Compatible with a hassy CF back?
Are the adapters third-party for the most part, or mostly manufacturer branded?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142706\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Mike, Sinar and Hasselblad make their own adapters to allow the backs to fit onto various platforms. There are some third party adapters but they are mechanical-only solutions which are for larger formats.
Pretty much all cameras are open to having an adapter and digital back attached. It's up to a third party to produce these. The Hy6 is no exception.
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Just out of curiosity...is it possible to attach a Hasselblad CF back to a Mamya 645?
One would think that Hasselblad doesn't allow this since they now moved to a closed system.
How about the upcoming Hy6/ AFi camera? Compatible with a hassy CF back?
Are the adapters third-party for the most part, or mostly manufacturer branded?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=142706\")
The Hasselblad CF series use interchangeable mounts that you can change anytime you wish and fully interface with a wide variety of cameras. The compatibilty is shown in the following link: [a href=\"http://www.hasselbladusa.com/media/890fe86e-d85c-4295-9aa4-9705acfcbb12-CF_UK.pdf]Hasselblad CF Link[/url]
In addition, the CF line includes multi-shot backs (which perform single-shot as well) which will allow full RGB capture with no interpolation. Very versatile option.
For the record... Hasselblad doesn't make a system. They make several different systems for different requirements. They offer the H3D as an integrated (closed) system. The H2 as an open system. The CF backs as an open system. The old standard "V" system. A unique film scanner system. In other words, they make many more "systems" than the H3D.
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There are of course adapters that will allow you to use Leaf back which is dedicated lets say to H mount on Rz, Fuji68 etc. and use the rotation. The plate snaps on in two seconds which is faster than taking off 4 screws and shimming the back.
Andre
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142694\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That solution actually kind of sucks because with the 3rd party adapters, the back won't communicate with the RZ.
With the Sinar and/or Hasselblad Interchangeable plates and ONE digital back, you could have a plate for the Hassy H (full communication), and a plate for the Mamiya 645AFD, which can be used on an RZIID plus Mamiya adapter, which will also give you full electronic communication. Two different platforms that can communicate with the back. Sweetness.
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That solution actually kind of sucks because with the 3rd party adapters, the back won't communicate with the RZ.
With the Sinar and/or Hasselblad Interchangeable plates and ONE digital back, you could have a plate for the Hassy H (full communication), and a plate for the Mamiya 645AFD, which can be used on an RZIID plus Mamiya adapter, which will also give you full electronic communication. Two different platforms that can communicate with the back. Sweetness.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142730\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The RZ adapters are not 3rd party they are designed and made by Leaf. They were originally designed in 2000 for the RZ PRO and the PROII before the D came out. They allow to use an H, M or V backs on the camera and rotate like a film back. There is one sync cable required from the lens to the back and another camera control cable for those who have a motordrive and would like to trigger the camera from the computer.
A Mamiya-fit back can be used on the D (with the Mamiya plate) and will communicate with the camera like any other back.
Yair
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Exactly yair, but if you have an RZIID, H1, and a Mamiya 645AFD mount back, you can't use it on the H1, unless the back has an adapter plate system like the Sinar/Hasselblad backs. That's all I'm saying.
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Exactly yair, but if you have an RZIID, H1, and a Mamiya 645AFD mount back, you can't use it on the H1, unless the back has an adapter plate system like the Sinar/Hasselblad backs. That's all I'm saying.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142770\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Personally, if I had an RZDII and an H1, I would have an H mount back not an AFD back.
I won't get metering in the prism, but that metering is way off anyway since the sensor is so much smaller than the 6X7 frame (at least in my experience).
With the S backs there's no risk of "out pacing" the back on the RZ, motordriven or not, because of their speed. Plus, I won't be draining the camera's battery if I forget the plate on it....
IMHO
Yair
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You right Yair. This set up works like dream machine for me. I can keep the shutter down - motor drive running and keep on making images forever. The speed is amazing, the quality uncomparable to anything I've tried before - and I think I tried them all.
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I am not that sure if one can compare it with a car ventilation.
This being said, the eMotion power management and system to keep the CCD free of noise is working, and working well. As said, the "pulse-flush" makes sure that the sensor is emptied of all residual electrons before the image is shot.
I am not aware (for not having checked in detail) about a method to remove the heat built-up from radiations through the housing. But what I know is that a fan is pretty much un-efficient in this case.
I will try to get more specific information on this, which might take some time. Please bear with me.
Best regards,
Thierry
So if a car doesn't have an air-conditioner (active cooling), there is no value in rolling down the windows and turning on a fan (passive cooling)?
The Sinar 54M uses Peltier connected to the external housing to radiate heat through the housing. Does the eMotion use a heat-sink or other method to remove heat build-up by radiating through the housing?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142696\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Dear RicAgu,
Well, let me first repeat what I am trying to say since quite a long time on this forum. I will try to make it a bit clearer.
Try the eMotion at ISO 100 and try another back from another brand at ISO 100. Compare the images and the histogram. Most probably you will see that the eMotion is 1 stop brighter than the other back, or that you have to switch the other back to ISO 200 to get the same exposure/density. Or in other words, "our" ISO 100 is equivalent to ISO 200 from another back. This is my tests having shown this and this has been confirmed by Steve Hendrix from PPR Digital in his post yesterday. Thus, if you want to compare the noise level, then compare it at ISO100 vs ISO 200. I think I cannot make it clearer.
As for dealers claiming that "Sinar is good in studio, but over ISO 100 one should forget it": some of these dealers should be updated, I confess this. Or then at least tell people that ISO 100 with Sinarbacks is equivalent to ISO 200 with others. This puts things in another perspective, isn't it?
About noise in general: we have always had the same philosophy, which is to not twick or change the raw data too much, and provide the photographer with as much original captured information as possible. So it is with "noise": we do not filter it out by some internal filtering, but provide a very powerful noise reduction feature in Captureshop which can be switched on and off on request and which can be adjusted very precisely. I can only recommend to try it out: being able to adjust "chrominance" and "luminance" noise as well as doing other "fine tunings" with this filter, is a very good thing, IMO. Once you have found the "noise reduction" setting for your particular image(s), you can apply it to all selected images and in a batch process, without having to open each file.
One last remark: your note "I also hear for tethered studio shooting the Evolution 75H is quite amazing at 100". I hope you will translate it now with "at 200". I guess then you will understand that the eMotion is even better than what you might think. Or again, compare "our" ISO 100 with ISO 200 with others, then we can speak at the same level.
Thanks anyway for your remarks and information about our dealers: I guess there is some homework to do for us in this area and it will be done.
Best regards,
Thierry
Thierry,
Not trying to bag on your product, as I just ordered $85k in gear from Jim in the US office and will give it a fair shot when available. I must also add that I have never even held a sinar digital product. But every dealer I have dealt with has told me that the Sinar is great for product or none moving settings, but after 100 ASA it is no good.
When upgrading from my P25 I looked at everythig and asked advice from everyone. I used the Aptus extensively and at the time of the upgrade V11 was not out yet and when I had been using V10 I left Leaf and decided I would not go back. I never used the H3d because I did not want to be locked into a system, although all I use is the H1/H2 set up for Phase. But I am hoping to get a useable solution for the H1 mount to RZ interface plate. I do miss the RZ, but think that the Hy6 may fix this for me.
My dealers were advising Hasselabld when going into my new back and the CF was quite attractive and the files I was sent at 400 looked pretty good. But then there was flexcolor with all its little mystery bugs and hiccups. I don't care what adobe is comig out with, I am not a fan of LR and love C1. Adobe is for PS. So I went to a P45 in the meantime.
But when your dealer network is telling you not to go with a product they carry and telling you to go XX route, it is quite interesting.
I will be tesitng out the Sinar system when it is readily available with the new emotion. I also hear for tethered studio shooting the Evolution 75H is quite amazing at 100. But as photographers that own our equipment we need a system that can go from tethered shooting to location shooting without a problem.
The only solution that I have found that steps up to the plate is the PhaseOne product. At the moment that is! I am not on a Phase band wagon. I just want something that works without a glitch. They have been the only product I have used that have not failed me.
I hope the Sinar product gets out into the market place, as I do for all the brands. It is just good for all of the shooters.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142701\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Dear Andre,
Thanks for this information.
May I ask if this is the case with other MF bodies, means do they have adapters for "Contax 645", "Mamiya 645", "Mamiya RB", "Rollei 6008", "Hass V", etc.... for a back with dedicated "H" mount?
Also, can you say if this is the case with all dedicated mounts, that they have adapters for all the above brands and MF camera models?
FYI: it is a long time that there is no need to shim anymore the eMotion backs (except for the Rollei 6008). The other Sinarbacks had never to be shimmed.
Thanks for a clarification.
Best regards,
Thierry
There are of course adapters that will allow you to use Leaf back which is dedicated lets say to H mount on Rz, Fuji68 etc. and use the rotation. The plate snaps on in two seconds which is faster than taking off 4 screws and shimming the back.
Andre
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142694\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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No, not with Sinarbacks, never.
Best regards,
Thierry
Interesting, I always thought you had to choose a specific mount and the consumer wouyld be locked in to a camera system, at least for the life-span of the DB.
Interesting little detail.
thanks
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142705\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Dear Mike
- The are no current plans to make it possible to attach Hasselblad backs, for the same reason(s) stated by others here and myself in other treads.
- The Sinar adapters are manufactured by Sinar, not by third-party manufacturers, for the simple reason that our adapters are not only simple plates to enable the mount of a back, but those plates have some internal electronical contacts, internal firmware, etc ... to enable the communication with bodies like the H, the Mamiya 645, the Contax 645, etc ...
Best regards,
Thierry
How about the upcoming Hy6/ AFi camera? Compatible with a hassy CF back?
Are the adapters third-party for the most part, or mostly manufacturer branded?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142706\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry,
I really appreciate your empassioned remarks.
You definitely made me want to try the Emotion 75. What I do like is that I can go from my beloved RZ to the H1 with plates.
I know Jim made an offer for me to try it in the near future. I just haven't had the time to set up a test with all the needed crew and it would not do the back justice to just shoot a wall or some city scape as it is not what I do. I am also sure you understand that it would not be wise to use it on a job having never used it before.
Since the 100 is like a 200, would it make sense to assume that the 200 would be like a 400?
For the kind of work I do, if I coudl get a usable 400 then I woudl be quite happy. 800 being a bonus, but I have enough light to throw at a problem to get 400 looking great with mixed daylight. In the film days I always shot 400 rated at 250, 160 rated at 100, 100 rated at 80 and 800 rated at 640.
I really do like the design of the Emotion with the internal flash memory and battery. One of the reasons I like the Phase other than C1 is the sudo internal battery. The Leaf and Hassy CF w/ the external battery was a pain.
What is the Emotion like on an RZ? Does it rotate or does it have to be removed and reattached to go from vertical to horizontal? Does it need comunication cables?
Best,
Ric
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Dear RicAgu,
You're right, ISO 200 would be the equivalent of ISO 400, and so with ISO 50 vs ISO 100, etc ....
I completely agree with you that you should make tests with the back under your own condidions and with a serious test. And so it is with shooting a job when one does not know the product, unless there is somebody there to guide you, which is not very practical.
Same as with the adapter kits for all other Sinarbacks on a RZ, also the eMotion/RZ 67 adapter kit allows you to easily revolve the digital back between landscape and portrait formats, without the need to remove the digital back from the camera. There is one sync cable from the lens to the eMotion back.
Best regards,
Thierry
Thierry,
I really appreciate your empassioned remarks.
You definitely made me want to try the Emotion 75. What I do like is that I can go from my beloved RZ to the H1 with plates.
I know Jim made an offer for me to try it in the near future. I just haven't had the time to set up a test with all the needed crew and it would not do the back justice to just shoot a wall or some city scape as it is not what I do. I am also sure you understand that it would not be wise to use it on a job having never used it before.
Since the 100 is like a 200, would it make sense to assume that the 200 would be like a 400?
For the kind of work I do, if I coudl get a usable 400 then I woudl be quite happy. 800 being a bonus, but I have enough light to throw at a problem to get 400 looking great with mixed daylight. In the film days I always shot 400 rated at 250, 160 rated at 100, 100 rated at 80 and 800 rated at 640.
I really do like the design of the Emotion with the internal flash memory and battery. One of the reasons I like the Phase other than C1 is the sudo internal battery. The Leaf and Hassy CF w/ the external battery was a pain.
What is the Emotion like on an RZ? Does it rotate or does it have to be removed and reattached to go from vertical to horizontal? Does it need comunication cables?
Best,
Ric
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142847\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I am not that sure if one can compare it with a car ventilation.
This being said, the eMotion power management and system to keep the CCD free of noise is working, and working well. As said, the "pulse-flush" makes sure that the sensor is emptied of all residual electrons before the image is shot.
I am not aware (for not having checked in detail) about a method to remove the heat built-up from radiations through the housing. But what I know is that a fan is pretty much un-efficient in this case.
I will try to get more specific information on this, which might take some time. Please bear with me.
Best regards,
Thierry
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=142826\")
Thierry,
I'm just trying to understand the basic physics. Giving heat an escape route is a good thing when you want to keep any encolsed space as cool as possible.
While being able to flush the CCD at a faster rate is fine, it does not mean that the CCD is not sensitive to thermal noise. The physical temperature of any CCD at capture has a major impact on noise and dynamic range. The Dalsa specification sheet has a chart showing the relation of sensor temperature to dark current (thermal noise). See page 13 of link [a href=\"http://www.dalsa.com/pi/documents/FTF5066C_datasheet_20061030.pdf]Dalsa Spec Sheet[/url]
Obviously, ventilation is one way to remove trapped heat–but not he only way. As I mentioned, the Sinar 54M has a unique combination of Peltier device actively transferring heat to the external back housing to be passively radiated out. Novel and effective! 54M Cooling Link (http://www.sinarbron.com/sb54sam_new/quality.php)
I'm certain the eMotion series delivers excellent files. I've seen fine images with eMotion backs. I'm still curious, however, what escape path is provided for trapped heat.
I used the car example only because people can relate to this. The laws of physics are at work for a person trapped inside a sealed box on a warm day as they are for a sensor.
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Tech Talk,
No harm to ask, and I understand your "concern" and question well. Fact is that I simply don't know, having never digged too deep into this issue and how it is solved in detail, and that I am more than satisfied with the results I get. So I will try to get more specific information on this. However, our product manager is currently on vacation, so it might take some time, and I don't feel like opening and dismounting my back for the purpose to check this out.
The SB 54 M is not the only Sinarback having an active cooling system: all the Sinarbacks of the first and second generation have the Peltier cooling system. But then, those backs are from first and 2nd generation of electronics and technical build.
Best regards,
Thierry
Thierry,
I'm just trying to understand the basic physics. Giving heat an escape route is a good thing when you want to keep any encolsed space as cool as possible.
While being able to flush the CCD at a faster rate is fine, it does not mean that the CCD is not sensitive to thermal noise. The physical temperature of any CCD at capture has a major impact on noise and dynamic range. The Dalsa specification sheet has a chart showing the relation of sensor temperature to dark current (thermal noise). See page 13 of link Dalsa Spec Sheet (http://www.dalsa.com/pi/documents/FTF5066C_datasheet_20061030.pdf)
Obviously, ventilation is one way to remove trapped heat–but not he only way. As I mentioned, the Sinar 54M has a unique combination of Peltier device actively transferring heat to the external back housing to be passively radiated out. Novel and effective! 54M Cooling Link (http://www.sinarbron.com/sb54sam_new/quality.php)
I'm certain the eMotion series delivers excellent files. I've seen fine images with eMotion backs. I'm still curious, however, what escape path is provided for trapped heat.
I used the car example only because people can relate to this. The laws of physics are at work for a person trapped inside a sealed box on a warm day as they are for a sensor.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142936\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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when got my P30 i came from a 6008/P20 combo...so the first thing i looked at was the emotion backs (along with everything else...) the emotion 75 would have been my first choice overall....i went with the P30 mostly because it cost me a lot less (although i had to move to RZ/M645)....the emotion 75 is a truly great back, nice screen, great files combined with the schneider/rollei lenses incredible detail....noise was a little higher then the other backs (at higher iso) but i can second thierry's remark about the sinar backs being rated a stop slower then they actually are....
i had come from leaf before and looked at the aptus line, but the software (at the time still in beta limbo) and the screen were a little disappointing....compared to the emotion, which i prefer.....
i also looked at the CF at the time and the file came in last in my tests....
the P30 proved to be the best all around solution regarding: software (now even better with LR), resolution, speed (both shooting and high iso noise) and was considerably cheaper then all the others....so it was a no brainer for me.....i am still looking to get my hands on the Hy6 to check it out....but afaik LR does not support emotion files? so that would actually now make it hard to justify....
i don't need ultra WA, so imager size is not really an issue for me....
at the time i did my shopping the emotion combined with rollei/schneider glass provided the best file out of all the options......
i would still love to see the P30 on a rollei/Hy6 with schneider glass....hopefully it will happen....
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How does an Aptus 75 compare to a Sinarback emotion75 ? Afaik they share the same sensor. The Sinarback has no fan. How do they compare at higher ISO? Is the Aptus superior because of its active cooling? I heard the eMotion 22 has a lot of noise on higher ISO, so I wonder how an eMotion 75 behaves. Is a Sinarback eMotion 75 recommended for a people photographer?
I like the idea of the changeable adapters.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142612\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
A75/ISO 800/125@5.6/Flourescent room lighting/No Flash/No PP other than RAW to Tiff to JPEG. The satisfying air from the back's fan even keeps my grip-hand cool. 80O for me is unusable. I would probably question the sanity of any MF back user who shoots much over the minimum ISO rating.
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Thanks Paul, for always being honest about quality, even though using another brand.
Yes, noise might be a little higher, but then it is mainly due to our lower ISO rating and the fact that we don't filter raws out of the back concerning noise. The availability of a "Noise Reduction" plugin and filter is however included in Captureshop, letting the choice to the photographer of filtering and fine tuning with different settings. A quite powerful tool, IMO.
LR compatibility:
- eMotion files (and other Sinarback files) shall be compatible with LR, as well as any other dng compatible application, with the new Exposure to come.
- For the time being, eMotion files are also compatible with LR (as well as any other dng compatible application) by means of the "Brumbaer DGN Converter".
With this application, the files are read out of the eMotions (tethered or not) and then converted into DNG (time of conversion on a MBP 2,33 MGh/2 GB Ram = 3 sec.), with automatical applying of "White References" if needed: this can be done in a batch on as many images as wanted and automatically: the dng converter recognizes to which image data the white ref corresponds. And like in Captureshop, centerfold issues are dealt with automatically without even noticing it. Beside this, automatic "Denoise" and "Vigneting" of white referenes can be applied.
The "Brumbaer Tools" can be dowloaded FOC under following link:
http://www.brumbaer.de/Tools/Brumbaer_Tools.html (http://www.brumbaer.de/Tools/Brumbaer_Tools.html)
Best regards,
Thierry
when got my P30 i came from a 6008/P20 combo...so the first thing i looked at was the emotion backs (along with everything else...) the emotion 75 would have been my first choice overall....i went with the P30 mostly because it cost me a lot less (although i had to move to RZ/M645)....the emotion 75 is a truly great back, nice screen, great files combined with the schneider/rollei lenses incredible detail....noise was a little higher then the other backs (at higher iso) but i can second thierry's remark about the sinar backs being rated a stop slower then they actually are....
i had come from leaf before and looked at the aptus line, but the software (at the time still in beta limbo) and the screen were a little disappointing....compared to the emotion, which i prefer.....
i also looked at the CF at the time and the file came in last in my tests....
the P30 proved to be the best all around solution regarding: software (now even better with LR), resolution, speed (both shooting and high iso noise) and was considerably cheaper then all the others....so it was a no brainer for me.....i am still looking to get my hands on the Hy6 to check it out....but afaik LR does not support emotion files? so that would actually now make it hard to justify....
i don't need ultra WA, so imager size is not really an issue for me....
at the time i did my shopping the emotion combined with rollei/schneider glass provided the best file out of all the options......
i would still love to see the P30 on a rollei/Hy6 with schneider glass....hopefully it will happen....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142975\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Tech Talk,
No harm to ask, and I understand your "concern" and question well. Fact is that I simply don't know, having never digged too deep into this issue and how it is solved in detail, and that I am more than satisfied with the results I get. So I will try to get more specific information on this. However, our product manager is currently on vacation, so it might take some time, and I don't feel like opening and dismounting my back for the purpose to check this out.
The SB 54 M is not the only Sinarback having an active cooling system: all the Sinarbacks of the first and second generation have the Peltier cooling system. But then, those backs are from first and 2nd generation of electronics and technical build.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142962\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Fair enough Thierry. No rush. As always, your efforts are appreciated.
I know I'm being a bit of a nuisance. I just like to understand how things work (where my unscientific brain can grasp the concept) and your willingness to help is generous.
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thanks thierry, i just wanted to put a spot also on two things between the a75 and the e75 comparations:
1. workflow of software
2. possible centerfold issues and how practical they are handled in the software.
i am not friend of the camera raw softwares from any manufactor, if i compare them with lightroom or acr for speed and with iridients raw develloper for quality. so i dont use the capture shop software and go the brumbaer route.
unfortuntaly for all backs in the market should be shot white reference files, to compensate color shifts over the sensor field,- and there is no way to avoid this if you work with shift lenses.
in general the dalsa chips behave better in this field than the kodak sensors, but still not good enough. how are this white shots used in the conversion process makes a big difference between the available softwares,- brumbaer tools applies them as batch automatically which save hours of time each day on location.
also i listen again and again from leaf users that they still have centerfold problems, which not in all cases can be removed by the way leaf is going with its gain adjuster, inverting grey shots and subtracting them from the images.
for me this details make it to a no-brainer which back i would buy if i would have to decide between leaf and sinar. i cannot see any advantage to favour of the leaf aptus75. maybe the bigger display, but in sunlight, where i often shoot, the oly displays seems to be better visible. at least good enough for focus check at 100%.
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A75/ISO 800/125@5.6/Flourescent room lighting/No Flash/No PP other than RAW to Tiff to JPEG. The satisfying air from the back's fan even keeps my grip-hand cool. 80O for me is unusable. I would probably question the sanity of any MF back user who shoots much over the minimum ISO rating.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142977\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
noise is very personal but i use the P30 at 400 and 800 quite a bit...and i ahve heard that the P30+ brings that up one more stop....i find the "noise at 800 to be very "grain-like" reminds me of TRI-X (for all who can remember)...i absolutely hate noise reduction software (almost as much as i hate sharpening software)....i have tried all, but i prefer a "grainy" look over a smudged mushy any day....
of course if you want clean, base iso is it.....but remember that any film (even velvia) shows a lot of grain/noise when scanned and blown up....
it really depends on your personal preference...
one of the things i did not like about the aptus (and my valeo before that) was the seemingly always applied noise reduction (just like phase always seems to have some kind of sharpening on in C1, even when it is turned off...)...the emotion does not seem to have that...
comes down to the same old thing: test them all, there are too ma ny things to consider, most of them personal preference....
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That is our true opinion and working guidance as well:
- to leave it to the photographer to filter the noise or not, unlike others
- to never apply any sharpening in the raws, unlike others
Thierry
noise is very personal but i use the P30 at 400 and 800 quite a bit...and i ahve heard that the P30+ brings that up one more stop....i find the "noise at 800 to be very "grain-like" reminds me of TRI-X (for all who can remember)...i absolutely hate noise reduction software (almost as much as i hate sharpening software)....i have tried all, but i prefer a "grainy" look over a smudged mushy any day....
of course if you want clean, base iso is it.....but remember that any film (even velvia) shows a lot of grain/noise when scanned and blown up....
it really depends on your personal preference...
one of the things i did not like about the aptus (and my valeo before that) was the seemingly always applied noise reduction (just like phase always seems to have some kind of sharpening on in C1, even when it is turned off...)...the emotion does not seem to have that...
comes down to the same old thing: test them all, there are too ma ny things to consider, most of them personal preference....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=143013\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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comes down to the same old thing: test them all, there are too many things to consider, most of them personal preference....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=143013\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I agree.
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May I suggest that anyone who does not use the 2 mentioned backs in their current incarnations on a regular base, with current software and firmware, will avoid commenting on the features and qualities of the "other brand".
The OP shoots fashion, for which you need speed (tethered/ un-tethered), quick previews on screen (tethered), good skin tone rendition, good iso range (from base with flash to high with available light.
You also need to know that there's support and backup (rental?) when something goes wrong, be it a user error or a software/ hardware issue. Is there a dealer nearby that can help and how fast the turnaround is, should something break.
With regards to using a fan or not. I suggest taking a fast series of 100 frames and then comparing the first to the last. I believe that you will be able to appreciate the advantage of the fan. The other area where it helps is with Live Video (which is less relevant to the OP) and leaving it ON for long periods.
If you shoot tethered and for whatever reason wish to use a 3rd party software (Lightroom or Aperture being two examples) for processing, then you will appreciate the fact the the Leaf files can go straight into these two programmes through hot folders.
However if you choose to use LeafCapture 11, then you will appreciate the large, hi-quality previews, especially when they come up on the "Preview Monitor", set in full screen mode on a 30" ACD. Your clients will like them as well...
External battery can be an advantage should you need/ want a larger one, and being a standard Samsung videocam battery, it is fairly easy to get hold of cheaply.
The large touch-screen LCD allows for advanced functionality on location, such as entering copyrights and notes, spot metering, selecting various image parameters including curves and crops and so on.
Last, the Bluetooth feature can serve well in a fashion environment where the client/ assistant can use an iPaq for viewing, checking and editing files from upto 6-7 metres away, without having to touch the camera while you are shooting.
But as many others already suggested: testing is the best way for finding out which back is the best for you.
Good luck!
Yair
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Dear Yair,
may I kindly suggest that your comment is misplaced: why should others not have the right to give their opinion? Or then, please be so fair and "jump-in" EACH time when others do this in your "favour" and when not using the back on a REGULAR base, like you say: I have never seen you doing this, so far.
This being said, there is at least one user having posted here who knows for having tested both and dealt with their respective files and workflow.
I think anyone buying a back would be aware about what he needs and what is important for him, and that testing and comparing (if possible side by side) is the most important.
Sorry Yair, you simply cannot deny somebody to give his input because you don't agree with it.
Thanks for your understanding and best regards,
Thierry
May I suggest that anyone who does not use the 2 mentioned backs in their current incarnations on a regular base, with current software and firmware, will avoid commenting on the features and qualities of the "other brand".
The OP shoots fashion, for which you need speed (tethered/ un-tethered), quick previews on screen (tethered), good skin tone rendition, good iso range (from base with flash to high with available light.
You also need to know that there's support and backup (rental?) when something goes wrong, be it a user error or a software/ hardware issue. Is there a dealer nearby that can help and how fast the turnaround is, should something break.
With regards to using a fan or not. I suggest taking a fast series of 100 frames and then comparing the first to the last. I believe that you will be able to appreciate the advantage of the fan. The other area where it helps is with Live Video (which is less relevant to the OP) and leaving it ON for long periods.
If you shoot tethered and for whatever reason wish to use a 3rd party software (Lightroom or Aperture being two examples) for processing, then you will appreciate the fact the the Leaf files can go straight into these two programmes through hot folders.
However if you choose to use LeafCapture 11, then you will appreciate the large, hi-quality previews, especially when they come up on the "Preview Monitor", set in full screen mode on a 30" ACD. Your clients will like them as well...
External battery can be an advantage should you need/ want a larger one, and being a standard Samsung videocam battery, it is fairly easy to get hold of cheaply.
The large touch-screen LCD allows for advanced functionality on location, such as entering copyrights and notes, spot metering, selecting various image parameters including curves and crops and so on.
Last, the Bluetooth feature can serve well in a fashion environment where the client/ assistant can use an iPaq for viewing, checking and editing files from upto 6-7 metres away, without having to touch the camera while you are shooting.
But as many others already suggested: testing is the best way for finding out which back is the best for you.
Good luck!
Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=143095\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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May I suggest that anyone who does not use the 2 mentioned backs in their current incarnations on a regular base, with current software and firmware, will avoid commenting on the features and qualities of the "other brand".
Good luck!
Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=143095\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
do you use the two backs on a regular base?
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Dear Yair,
may I kindly suggest that your comment is misplaced: why should others not have the right to give their opinion? Or then, please be so fair and "jump-in" EACH time when others do this in your "favour" and when not using the back on a REGULAR base, like you say: I have never seen you doing this, so far.
This being said, there is at least one user having posted here who knows for having tested both and dealt with their respective files and workflow.
I think anyone buying a back would be aware about what he needs and what is important for him, and that testing and comparing (if possible side by side) is the most important.
Sorry Yair, you simply cannot deny somebody to give his input because you don't agree with it.
Thanks for your understanding and best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=143098\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thierry I think you have missed my point or maybe I wasn't clear enough.
This is a free public board and every opinion is welcome and is useful as long as it's backed up by relevant and current information. That's all I am saying.
If one of your customers has tested other backs some time ago in a certain environment, his/ her conclusions are not necessarily relevant to what the OP of this thread is looking for.
I don't see the point in shoulder tapping anyone who posts in my product's favour as it is not my style. If the product does the job then that's good and if it doesn't, then it is my job to make sure that it works or that its limitations are known.
Yair
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If one of your customers has tested other backs some time ago in a certain environment, his/ her conclusions are not necessarily relevant to what the OP of this thread is looking for.
Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=143104\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
i can not see which right you have to qualify or disqualify my posts.
as usual you prefer not to say whom you mean, but i suppose you talk about me.
i can tell you that - even if i do not work on a "regular base " with your products i have enough contacts with friends/ collegues/ and even distributers of leaf to know how far your efforts resulted.
Btw it seems so that you still have not dissolved your centerfold issue for all customers,- or would you claim the opposite than you are free to do it. lets see who will jump in the discussion.
as last time, when you felt it adequate to write that it might be "dangerous" for me posting about your products i am missing, one time more, your point.
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Dear Yair,
And I think you have missed my point as well. I don't see it as your right to make such a comment to somebody posting, whatever he is posting and whoever is posting, being it in favour of one or another, it doesn't matter. It is about the "kind of forbidding"-style which does not come very sound for me.
If your main concern in this is that each member here making comments HAS TO have an experience with the mentioned back, product or topic he is speaking about, then you will not have finish to jump-in.
And by the way: it is not "one of our customers" who has tested a Leaf back and it is not who you are thinking. You missed this one.
We agree on one point: "shoulder tapping" is not our style.
Best regards,
Thierry
Thierry I think you have missed my point or maybe I wasn't clear enough.
This is a free public board and every opinion is welcome and is useful as long as it's backed up by relevant and current information. That's all I am saying.
If one of your customers has tested other backs some time ago in a certain environment, his/ her conclusions are not necessarily relevant to what the OP of this thread is looking for.
I don't see the point in shoulder tapping anyone who posts in my product's favour as it is not my style. If the product does the job then that's good and if it doesn't, then it is my job to make sure that it works or that its limitations are known.
Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=143104\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Dear Yair,
I would appreciate your answer on this, since André does not seem to answer or know about it.
Can you jump in here?
Thank you.
Best regards,
Thierry
May I ask if this is the case with other MF bodies, means do they have adapters for "Contax 645", "Mamiya 645", "Mamiya RB", "Rollei 6008", "Hass V", etc.... for a back with dedicated "H" mount?
Also, can you say if this is the case with all dedicated mounts, that they have adapters for all the above brands and MF camera models?
FYI: it is a long time that there is no need to shim anymore the eMotion backs (except for the Rollei 6008). The other Sinarbacks had never to be shimmed.
Thanks for a clarification.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142839\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Anyone who wishes to be taken seriously when posting and commenting on a product's pluses and minuses should be prepared and able to provide sound reference or otherwise it turns into just another post.
Nobody is forbidding anyone here and I'll appreciate it if in the future you refrain from accusing me for doing so.
Thanks
Yair
PS don't worry I didn't miss Paul's post and I have all the respect for him, his work and his choice of product.
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Anyone who wishes to be taken seriously when posting and commenting on a product's pluses and minuses should be prepared and able to provide sound reference or otherwise it turns into just another post.
Nobody is forbidding anyone here and I'll appreciate it if in the future you refrain from accusing me for doing so.
Thanks
Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=143112\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
what you mean? could you be somehow more clear?
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If you shoot tethered and for whatever reason wish to use a 3rd party software (Lightroom or Aperture being two examples) for processing, then you will appreciate the fact the the Leaf files can go straight into these two programmes through hot folders.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=143095\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yair,
Hotfolder?
Could you define your definition of hot folder? I have not found hot folders in Leaf V11 sofar. A folder where my files come in that I shoot tethered and that get immediately processed with parameters pre-defined by me.
I have not found this in Bridge of Lightroom either. Lightroom has a folder that gets imported when something enters but this doesn't process the files and is a PITA when you have to get rid of the files that do not get past the final approval afterwards.
I would love to see a hot folder in LC (I have actually asked for it several times on the Leaf Forum). A folder that spits out Tiff, JPG's with predefined parameters as soon as new files enter. Actually this would be a big asset for more brands as well. It is not just Leaf that needs to get this IMO.
BTW. No experience with the A75. Other Leaf products, I have been tearing apart the software and portable solutions quite extensively just to see how it works and what can and cannot be done with it.
Anyway, my advice would be as well. Test it yourself or prepare to find out the hard way (which I did and which is also a lot of fun between the periods of utter dispair, disgust and frustration). I have yet to use (for at least a year to 2 years) a Sinar back to be able to say that I have worked with all 4 MFDB's and their respective work flows.
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what you mean? could you be somehow more clear?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=143113\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
If someone says that brand X is better than Brand Y for fashion for instance, we would like to hear his/ her opinion about capture speed, skin tone rendition, high iso performance and his/ her chosen workflow in the brand's own software and/ or 3rd party apps.
If we're talking about another environment, such as architecture, then we'd like to hear about sharpness (not sharpening), DR and dealing with artefacts such as colour casts and vignetting and how these corrections are implemented into the workflow i.e can the files after corrections be processed in the back's own software etc. Which is what you have done but that was quite a while ago and things have moved a bit since then.
Yair
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Yair,
Hotfolder?
Could you define your definition of hot folder? I have not found hot folders in Leaf V11 sofar. A folder where my files come in that I shoot tethered and that get immediately processed with parameters pre-defined by me.
I have not found this in Bridge of Lightroom either. Lightroom has a folder that gets imported when something enters but this doesn't process the files and is a PITA when you have to get rid of the files that do not get past the final approval afterwards.
I would love to see a hot folder in LC (I have actually asked for it several times on the Leaf Forum). A folder that spits out Tiff, JPG's with predefined parameters as soon as new files enter. Actually this would be a big asset for more brands as well. It is not just Leaf that needs to get this IMO.
BTW. No experience with the A75. Other Leaf products, I have been tearing apart the software and portable solutions quite extensively just to see how it works and what can and cannot be done with it.
Anyway, my advice would be as well. Test it yourself or prepare to find out the hard way (which I did and which is also a lot of fun between the periods of utter dispair, disgust and frustration). I have yet to use (for at least a year to 2 years) a Sinar back to be able to say that I have worked with all 4 MFDB's and their respective work flows.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=143115\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hello Ray,
By hot folder I mean LR and Aperture can be set to watch the shots folder as they come in. BTW in LR you can set it to "import" the files in their original location so you don't have to deal with extra storage space.
Apple provide a script called "Aperture Hot Folder" that allows Aperture to import RAW files automatically into its library.
The hot folder that you are referring to is something we have in V8's batchProcessor and that we intend to bring back in one of LC11's next versions.
Yair
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Dear Yair,
I have been polite and I shall remain. And I am patient as well.
However, I wish to repeat myself: I sincerely put in doubt your right to write and deny somebody to post. "Suggesting" somebody like you did it, is certainly not what can be understood as gentleman-like. And even less when you are not "naming" the person whom you have in mind.
That's all my point, nothing more, but also nothing less.
As for "forbidding": it was simply how it sounds to my ears, and it is my full right to express my feeling. I am may be very sensitive, but I maintain that it does not sound very polite and respectful for me.
As for Paul: I did neither speak about him! Nor did I say that this person has posted in this particular tread. And it doesn't actually matter. My point is simply that anyone has the right to post here, period. And it should be your duty not to put somebody in doubt by suggesting him not to post and at the same time not naming him, but rather to address him directly with your facts and your knowledge, which should actually be pretty easy.
Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
Anyone who wishes to be taken seriously when posting and commenting on a product's pluses and minuses should be prepared and able to provide sound reference or otherwise it turns into just another post.
Nobody is forbidding anyone here and I'll appreciate it if in the future you refrain from accusing me for doing so.
Thanks
Yair
PS don't worry I didn't miss Paul's post and I have all the respect for him, his work and his choice of product.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=143112\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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That is good news!
Indeed I am aware of the Lightroom hotfolder. As I said that is only meant to import images into the Library. It doesn't process files.
For me (naturally this can be totally different for someone else) it is not always that usefull.
Every file I shoot needs to be processed and output (mostly in JPG). Not every file needs to be in a library. I don't know how others do this but I do not save RAW files for my catalogue/packshots. I have between 50K & 100K of these annually. The hot folder that I mentioned would save a lot of time for me, especially if it can invoke scripts that can make photoshop run actions as well.
Yair, please ask the developers to put in the option of running a Photoshop droplet just after saving the file from the hotfolder!
Free work or other work I find interesting enough to keep in libraries will be made, processed (basic), evaluated, processed further, stored and catalogued. This can be done with the hotfolder of Lightroom.
I still find it not very handy but going into that would probably go to far.
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Dear Yair,
BTW: nowhere did the OP mention that he is shooting fashion, but people. Which might not be that far away from each other, but which certainly isn't the same.
And his main concern was when shooting at higher ISO, which I did address by answering as clearly as possible, and colour rendition, which others did address.
Best regards,
Thierry
The OP shoots fashion, .....
Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=143095\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Indeed I am aware of the Lightroom hotfolder. As I said that is only meant to import images into the Library. It doesn't process files.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=143129\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I can not agree with you more on everything you said about hotfolders!
I have been wanting automatic processing of files with "photoshop type" actions while shooting tethered for several years, and it seems nobody provides this in any adequate fashion... everybody just assumes that a folder being "watched" for incoming files is everything anybody could ever need, but the software importing from the folder does not automatically do something with the file!?
-axel
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If someone says that brand X is better than Brand Y for fashion for instance, we would like to hear his/ her opinion about capture speed, skin tone rendition, high iso performance and his/ her chosen workflow in the brand's own software and/ or 3rd party apps.
If we're talking about another environment, such as architecture, then we'd like to hear about sharpness (not sharpening), DR and dealing with artefacts such as colour casts and vignetting and how these corrections are implemented into the workflow i.e can the files after corrections be processed in the back's own software etc. Which is what you have done but that was quite a while ago and things have moved a bit since then.
Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=143119\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
yaya.
that lc11 is out and people seems to be content with it has nothing to do with the advantages i am claiming in favour of the emotion backs and its faster ( and i.m.o. better ) workflow.
i know where is the actual "state of the art" of the aptus75 backs, your gain adjuster and lc11.
btw,- aside tethered shooting - i cannot see much sense that every maker tries to invent the wheel again in spending lots of money to write its own software.
i would understand that, if the file quality would be higher than in third party sw,- but this seems not to be the case as far i can see,- although of course everybody is free to like one sw more than another and lc11 seems to be successfull and most people who use it, like it.
i am not comparing lc11 and capture shop because both are not interesting me.
i dont like the camera-makers software , neither from sinar, nor from leaf, nor from hasselblad/ imacon. i am tempted to make an exception here for phase, mainly because it is an "open" software and supports many 35mm cameras as well as the phase backs.
i compare sinar + leaf here in terms of workspeed, workflow, quality and issues ( CF ),- if white references have to be taken and applied to various files, as it should be done with architecture systems, as long shift lenses are used.
i cannot see how this changed with lc11 in a way that you could reach in practical environments even the half of the speed you can get with the sinar/brumbaer workflow.
again: i am not talking abut lc11or cs. i am comparing ALL software workflows which are available for these two backs,- in case of sinar i speak about brumbaer tools not about captureshop.
did you try it out with - lets say 20 files with different white files? do it and measure the time instead of claiming that "others" dont know what about they write.
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yaya.
that lc11 is out and people seems to be content with it has nothing to do with the advantages i am claiming in favour of the emotion backs and its faster ( and i.m.o. better ) workflow.
i know where is the actual "state of the art" of the aptus75 backs, your gain adjuster and lc11.
btw,- aside tethered shooting - i cannot see much sense that every maker tries to invent the wheel again in spending lots of money to write its own software.
i would understand that, if the file quality would be higher than in third party sw,- but this seems not to be the case as far i can see,- although of course everybody is free to like one sw more than another and lc11 seems to be successfull and most people who use it, like it.
i am not comparing lc11 and capture shop because both are not interesting me.
i dont like the camera-makers software , neither from sinar, nor from leaf, nor from hasselblad/ imacon. i am tempted to make an exception here for phase, mainly because it is an "open" software and supports many 35mm cameras as well as the phase backs.
i compare sinar + leaf here in terms of workspeed, workflow, quality and issues ( CF ),- if white references have to be taken and applied to various files, as it should be done with architecture systems, as long shift lenses are used.
i cannot see how this changed with lc11 in a way that you could reach in practical environments even the half of the speed you can get with the sinar/brumbaer workflow.
again: i am not talking abut lc11or cs. i am comparing ALL software workflows which are available for these two backs,- in case of sinar i speak about brumbaer tools not about captureshop.
did you try it out with - lets say 20 files with different white files? do it and measure the time instead of claiming that "others" dont know what about they write.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=143135\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hello Rainer,
I agree with you with regards to choices when it comes to editing and processing of RAW files. The more "open" the systems are, the better it will be for the end user.
However, at least at this point in time, there are back-specific issues, such as colour casts or colour moire that need to be addressed by the manufacturer's own software simply because 3rd party apps still do not offer such facilities. (I hope it's OK if I treat Stephan's tools as they were a Sinar product, since they only support these backs).
With regards to our Custom Gain adjuster: the flow is fairly simple: Select the diffused image (can be shot in the field or in the studio before/ after), select a destination folder, set the level of fallpff correction and leave it to run through the files.
There is a built-in tolerance that will cover small aperture and shift changes so you don't have to create a diffused file for each and every combination.
I believe (and people here can correct me if I'm wrong) that just like you have gained your skill and speed in setting Stephan's SW up, one can gain the same skill with practically any tool.
The fact that the files remain in Leaf mosaic format helps if one needs to revert to previous image parameters from WB to crop to input profile and to then apply or re-process the files. These files can become the new (corrected) originals.
Of course none of these solutions is perfect and there's some more to be desired as far as sensor-related issues. Hopefully we'll see improvements coming from the sensor and lens manufacturers sooner rather than later.
Yair
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Dear Yair,
I would appreciate your answer on this, since André does not seem to answer or know about it.
Can you jump in here?
Thank you.
Best regards,
Thierry
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=143111\")
Thierry,
I thought that the way you ask the question was an answer by itself and I've seen no reason to answer. By the way I do not know of any pro photog who keeps complete sets of Hassy H, Contax 645 and Mamiya645 and keeps switching plates by removing 4 screws so in practice I would not overrate the value of this feature. In the film era there was few photogs who use to switch bodies as they please during the same session. Now days people switch cameras system because they are not happy with their work or their digital back performance.
For most of this topic I stayed away because I do not have any good first hand knowledge about Sinar modern offerings and would hate to add to mass misinformation. While back I tried 54M and got horrified for life. New backs may be superb - I do not know. The only think I know for certain is that after seven years and hundreds of thousand of frames with various Phase One back I made my move to Aptus75 - 75S and could not be happier.
IF SINAR IS AS GOOD THAN WE ARE ALL WINNERS AND THERE IS NO REASONS TO ARGUE!!!!!
[a href=\"http://AndreNapier.com]http://AndreNapier.com[/url]
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Dear Andre,
No, I did not. I simply do not know and wanted to be informed, since you wrote "to H mount on Rz, Fuji68 etc...." And I still don't know what is possible excatly.
It is may be not important for all, that there is the possibility to switch from one camera body to another brand, but others have different opinions about this and I simply want to inform about this possibility with a Sinarback, any.
I am kind of surprised that a SB 54M has given you such a bad experience, since it is certainly one of our big success in terms of quality and skin tones rendition. Have a look at Sarah's work with this back: she is one out of other fashion/beauty photogs using this back and her clients praise the quality of the file and skin tones.
http://www.sarahsilver.com/ (http://www.sarahsilver.com/)
Andre: I did not and do not argue about quality, or about one brand being better than an other, far from me this idea, and I doubt you have ever seen me doing so. You did misunderstand my point. I simply cannot admit that somebody puts in doubt a member's credibility and posts by suggesting him to stop writing and at the same time not namimg him, being it a Sinar user or not. This is simply not acceptable, and it did not happen for the first time. Respect of the work (which was here not put in doubt) and of the knowledge/experience should be the base to any communication, and answering by facts, counter-arguments and one's own knowledge should be the way to do for me.
BTW, it is not only today that I had a look at your work, but since we are here now in direct contact, I wish to say that I like it much.
Best regards,
Thierry
Thierry,
I thought that the way you ask the question was an answer by itself and I've seen no reason to answer. By the way I do not know of any pro photog who keeps complete sets of Hassy H, Contax 645 and Mamiya645 and keeps switching plates by removing 4 screws so in practice I would not overrate the value of this feature. In the film era there was few photogs who use to switch bodies as they please during the same session. Now days people switch cameras system because they are not happy with their work or their digital back performance.
For most of this topic I stayed away because I do not have any good first hand knowledge about Sinar modern offerings and would hate to add to mass misinformation. While back I tried 54M and got horrified for life. New backs may be superb - I do not know. The only think I know for certain is that after seven years and hundreds of thousand of frames with various Phase One back I made my move to Aptus75 - 75S and could not be happier.
IF SINAR IS AS GOOD THAN WE ARE ALL WINNERS AND THERE IS NO REASONS TO ARGUE!!!!!
http://AndreNapier.com (http://AndreNapier.com)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=143256\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Dear Yair,
I would appreciate your answer on this, since André does not seem to answer or know about it.
Can you jump in here?
Thank you.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=143111\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think that at this point we should both just let it go as we are starting to bore the folks here.
For your question, we make backs in 4 different mounts and each one of them fits more than 1 camera, either via adapters made by Leaf or adapters made by 3rd party vendors. None of these adapter require tools or screws. One can choose to change the mount if he/ she switches 645 platforms for a reasonable price.
This subject has been covered here many a time before.
Peace
Yair
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Did I say something?! You know what I mean and that I will jump in for such things and each time. Period.
You do not answer the question clearly: which mounts fit which cameras?
Even though covered apparently here already many times, I am not aware of it: any link?
That is not very helpful information, indeed. I remember having answered any question at a time when you asked me details about a p2 configuration.
Best regards,
Thierry
edited for PS: I do really not need any teacher-style comments. I am not a school boy.
I think that at this point we should both just let it go as we are starting to bore the folks here.
For your question, we make backs in 4 different mounts and each one of them fits more than 1 camera, either via adapters made by Leaf or adapters made by 3rd party vendors. None of these adapter require tools or screws. One can choose to change the mount if he/ she switches 645 platforms for a reasonable price.
This subject has been covered here many a time before.
Peace
Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=143328\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry,
I thought that the way you ask the question was an answer by itself and I've seen no reason to answer. By the way I do not know of any pro photog who keeps complete sets of Hassy H, Contax 645 and Mamiya645 and keeps switching plates by removing 4 screws so in practice I would not overrate the value of this feature. In the film era there was few photogs who use to switch bodies as they please during the same session. Now days people switch cameras system because they are not happy with their work or their digital back performance.
For most of this topic I stayed away because I do not have any good first hand knowledge about Sinar modern offerings and would hate to add to mass misinformation. While back I tried 54M and got horrified for life. New backs may be superb - I do not know. The only think I know for certain is that after seven years and hundreds of thousand of frames with various Phase One back I made my move to Aptus75 - 75S and could not be happier.
IF SINAR IS AS GOOD THAN WE ARE ALL WINNERS AND THERE IS NO REASONS TO ARGUE!!!!!
http://AndreNapier.com (http://AndreNapier.com)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=143256\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
i changed from hasselblad to contax using still the same back,- and i use my backs at the moment on gottschalt, contax and sometimes on sinarM camera,- all with different mounts.
the mounts have 3 screws and there is not any problem to change them " on the fly ".
btw. i used the 54h ( the multishot brother of the 54m ) for a museum bookwork this year.
incredible detail and colors in 16shot mode,- althoug not easy to get there.
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I think that at this point we should both just let it go as we are starting to bore the folks here.
For your question, we make backs in 4 different mounts and each one of them fits more than 1 camera, either via adapters made by Leaf or adapters made by 3rd party vendors. None of these adapter require tools or screws. One can choose to change the mount if he/ she switches 645 platforms for a reasonable price.
This subject has been covered here many a time before.
Peace
Yair
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=143328\")
Every digtal back has by design compromises, advantages, disadvantages and limitations. It is up to the user to determine the best fit for their particular needs and personal preferences.
One limitation in the design of backs that have fixed camera mounts is the range of cameras to which they can be attached and/or fully integrate. The range is vastly expanded with an interchangeable mount system.
Fixed mount backs do not allow the user to interchange between different 6x6 or 645 systems. They will adapt up to 6x7, 6x8 and large format camera systems. How well integrated the back is with a 6x7 or 6x8 camera varies. In the case of the Leaf, it integrates well with a Mamiya RZ and not as well with a Fuji GX680. Whether or not this is of any importance will most certainly vary from one user to another. This does not imply that there are not other advantages or features that makers of fixed mount systems have in the design of their product.
The value of having interchangeable mounts was questioned by another poster "I do not know of any pro photog who keeps complete sets of Hassy H, Contax 645 and Mamiya645 and keeps switching plates by removing 4 screws". Well, I don't know anyone with "complete sets" of multiple autofocus 645 systems either. They are far too similar to each other in vintage, format and function for that to seem logical. On the other hand, I certainly know photographers that started with an old Hasselblad 500 C/M and later added a 645 autofocus camera of one brand or another and perhaps at some point aquired a Fuji GX680 or Mamiya RZ/RB. For them, the value of interchangeable mounts is real and tangible. For others, it may not be.
In short, the added versatility of interchangeable mount (open system) digital backs is important to some and no concern to others. The same is true of any feature or capability.
[a href=\"http://www.hasselbladusa.com/media/890fe86e-d85c-4295-9aa4-9705acfcbb12-CF_UK.pdf]Link to Hasselblad Interchangeable Mounts[/url]
Link to Sinar Interchangeable Mounts (http://www.sinar.ch/site/index__gast-e-1780-50-1901.html)
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I use several systems, eg.
DigiFlex II
Flexbody
503CW
H2
Before this I also used
Truewide
MiniWide
This is one of the reasons I currently work with the CF39. I do know several people that have multiple complete 645 systems. They are even bigger freaks than I am
The interchangeable mount also has disadvantages. I have had problems with focussing one of my DigiFlex bodies. For this I thought I needed a shim kit. Fortunately loosening the screws somewhat fixed it as well. Mind you I had to loosen them about 1/2 turn. Now how is that for critical?
Before I had a Leaf Aptus17 which felt sturdier and gave a more comfortable feeling to work with. I liked the histogram of the Leaf much better. The white balancing with the touch screen was awesome (I know it is not important but I still like to see my images come in more or less the way I want them).
I agree with Techtalk that every back has things going for it as well as against it.
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In short, the added versatility of interchangeable mount (open system) digital backs is important to some and no concern to others. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=143511\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
For an interchangable mount is also some kind of future proofing (possibly)
It increases the probablity that when a MF system with decent multipoint AF becomes available I will be able to switch to that system
Or if an open system comes about that beats the H1 system I currently use I could swap to that - this may happen with the Hy6 system if they get thier act together on lenses
(however I will still have to wait a couple of years until there are used HYs around before I could afford)
many seem to think that MF backs only last a couple of years
I dont know why this is - no moving parts mean they should go for millions of captures and if say you shoot under studio lights and print A3 then increases in speed or quality are irrelevant
I was only happy to spend the bucks on my back because I factored the cost over five years rather than my typical three or 18months for DSLRs
S
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Dear Sam,
If this can reassure you about the lasting of MFDBs, I can tell you that the "living" average of such a back is certainly far over 2 years. Many of the photographers I know or I have met have them for much longer, being it Sinarbacks or other brands. When they change them, it is often because they want a newer technology or a higher resolution, etc ...., not because they are dead. These backs then get refurbished or then go the second-hand way, continuing their life.
I visited recently some studios where they used the very first generation of SB 22 (not the 22 MPx sensor, but the Loral 4 MPx sensor!): that was built 14 years ago. And there are still dozen of people using this back. Same with the very first generation of Leaf DCB's, same with the 6 MPx Philips sensor backs. That was more than 10 years back, and they are still actively living!
The only problem sometimes is the availability of some electronical components of such products, when they need to be changed. But so far 5 years of servicing is not a problem.
Best regards,
Thierry
many seem to think that MF backs only last a couple of years
I dont know why this is - no moving parts mean they should go for millions of captures and if say you shoot under studio lights and print A3 then increases in speed or quality are irrelevant
I was only happy to spend the bucks on my back because I factored the cost over five years rather than my typical three or 18months for DSLRs
S
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=143541\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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the open vs closed system debate is a bit old....i shot with a mamiya mount P30 back...i can mount that on a 645afdII, one of the fastest AF systems (for medium format) out there, smaller, lighter and cheaper then all others....i can mount it on the RZ, one of the most proven studio workhorses of the last 15 years...with a system including a huge range of excellent lenses ans everything from macro to T/S adapters and lenses....if i want more movements or true WA i can mountit on pretty much any large format out there.....there is also a adapter for the GX680 if i want that....
i can't mount it on a contax or a hasselblad, if i wanted eitehr of these systems, i would have gotten it in that mount...my valeo was a hassV mount...glad i got rid of both....
yes what i would like is to put it on a rollei...but...whatever...maybe one day...do i blame rollei or phase for that? ther are some things i can't do anything about, so i don't worry about it too much....the emotion would have sollved that problem, but i did not want to pay for that, so i am happy with what i have....very happy...
my P30 will produce near 4x5 quality up to 800 iso every 1.5 sec for probably the rest of my life....if i take care of it....longer then any camera, car, computer (ha!)....people tend to forget about that....there will probably a back, the P95 that will shoot near 8x10, up to 3200 iso every 1 sec.....yes, i will look into that....
both the aptus and the emotion can produce amazing results....but the more time i invest in all this, the more i find out that with all the sensors and backs being so advanced, the cameras and especially the lenses (which for the most part have stopped develpoment years ago) can;t keep up...so in my experiencei would rather have a lower res. back with a better lens then a higher res back with a crappy one....which is why i really, really like the rollei/schneider combos....nothing comes close.....it will be really interesting to see a test between the Hy6/emotion and the Afi/leaf....then the backs will be tested with the best lenses and ther will be no excuses....
i just sold my 645 stuff, because as good as the mamiya 645 lenses are (they can easily keep up with any other 645 system), they can't compare to the RZ lenses.....so there i am.....
you can imagine how i feel about the new canons/nikons....too much depends on the lenses....
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cant wait for a new capture program for sinar backs. any word on release date would be great
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I'm a Sinar back owner from less than 2 mounths and I agree with you about the bad service support from Sinar: I payed a lot for the e75LV and HY6 and no manuals (paper or cd) were supplied. The software is crappy when shooting tethered, it crashes down very usually during the day. But ... before to buy it I compared it with Leaf 7 wich has a better software but, to my eyes and teste, worst file. I also shooted with a Phase One P21 and till now I can say that I haven't seen a file that looks like film as the Sinar do. Just let's hope they understand the importance of a valid support.
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there are some reasons why exist the brumbaer tools.
they do a pretty fine job,- even with leopard......, so why not to use them.
( ofcourse i understand what you are telling ).
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I do understand your frustration and shall try to address these problems. I have contacted both of you by PM to send me some more details about your particular case and to get your contacts.
I cannot comment here and at this stage without these details.
However:
"raicerx":
I would suggest you to contact me directly, when you have the feeling that the distributor or Sinar does not provide the service/follow-up you are expecting. I do myself take any request seriously and do follow it up until the customer has got an answer to his issue(s)
"favalim":
Same as for "raicerx", and:
I simply wonder about a few of your points. We did not deliver Hy6 cameras or systems 2 months ago (end of November): the only units delivered were for our distributors and as demo units/kits.
1. The manual was THEN not ready (it is yet)
2. Tethered shooting was THEN not supported:
- Captureshop for tethered use of Hy6 was not released
- FW for eMotion 75 for tethered use of the Hy6 was not released (FW 5.0 has been released 1 week ago only)
3. You should have got a CD with your Sinarback: this is part of any Sinarback or Sinar Hy6 system:
I ca only see a mistake/fault from the distributor's side. No back leaves Sinar without CD and a manual. Actually there are 2 CD's delivered with each back:
1 CD with:
- Manual for Sinar Hy6
- Mostrecent version of Captureshop
- "Read Me" file for the use of the particular CS version
1 CD with:
- Manual for eMotion 75 (or 54)
- "Reference Files" for the particular back
I have got already details from "raicerx" and am able now to follow-up. May I ask some more details from you as well?
Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
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I have owned a Sinar emotion 75 for a little over a year now and use it with my rollei 6008. I have had 3 computers for capture and nothing but problems. My back has gone down 2 times and the loaner even went down while I was waiting 3 months for my back to be repaired. In my experience Sinar is sleeping at the wheel. The image quality is good but support is horrible, 3 months for a warranty repair? And the software ridiculously buggy, crashes when exporting more than one image, crashes when shooting to the laptop and the lid closes on the laptop, or whenever it really just feels like it. I have done all the updates to back and software and computer. Also I never even got an instruction book for the back or the software it took me a month or so to even find the various process functions you so cleverly hide in the grey area of the process tab that requires a right click to locate ( or alt click ) I have yelled about these things for a year now. Oh yeah and what about the famous STI in bridge data sabotage "little" bug. Your company's response, we sent an email and made a post about that a few months ago. Are you kidding me. There should be men in white lab coats showing up at the doorstep of every photographer shooting in STI to tell them "uh hey uh dont try using bridge to organize your STI files or you may never see them again " I am mad yeah can you tell. I am posting this so that other photographers who are using your products can join up and demand a little effort from you guys at Sinar for our $25,000.00 spent. And I also hope that you get on it and actually fix some of these basic issues. Better yet just program the backs to shoot in DNG and forget the STI. I am converting mine to DNG with Brumbauer tools anyway. But for god's sake man don't release another version of thatsoftware without fixing at least some of these things. Ok I know you fixed the bridge thing, a year later, and a year after I lost 5 of my clients shots to your little glitch.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=171261\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Sorry to hear about your experience, I have had the exact opposite experience............in fact I would say that I have virtual 24/7 support. I don't know your identity or your geographic location, but I am in the US and can talk to my dealer @ Calumet via phone during the day or evening. When its night time, I usually prefer to contact Thierry ( I think it 12 hours difference to Thailand). There have been times when I was evaluating the gear that Rainer_V and Stefan Hess (Dr. Brumbaer) have assisted me through little jams and glitches. While not as extensive as the virtual 24/7 Sinar support, the same is true of the Leaf support............you can always get Rick Adshead on the phone or Yair via email, as well as knowledgeable reps like Steve Hendrix @ PPR.
The Sinar back is unusal in the marketplace in that you have the option of an integrated and/or a non integrated solution both in terms of hardware ( adapter plates) and software (Leaf offers this as well but only in software options.....you can use LC or raw software of you choice with gain files applied to the raw files).
I shoot architecture, so the demands on the sensor are greater than a studio shooter (moderate wides and teles, axial lenses and typically short exposures with consistent light sources)......ultra wide angle lenses with non axial lens movements and add to that longish exposures and various mixed light sources.
I have found for my use that the non integrated software solution (Brumbaer Tools) works spectacularly. The file quality is just amazing and the workflow that Stefan and Rainer colloborated is the best non tethered solution in the market place in my opinion. It is so simple to use and produces such sophisticated tonal ranges...........its simply astonishing not having to use
photoshop for fixing menial things like color and tonality. My post production time involvement is dramatically reduced to execute normal file prep issues.
Its actually astonishing how a couple guys( Stefan & Rainer) have identified issues and designed a software that the major players (hassy,phase,leaf and sinar) can't even produce.
Specifically LCC,gainfiles, & white reference files applied to raw files and having the ability process through 3rd party softwares.
Its actually hard to comprehend why these solutions from the big 4 are not being addressed more aggressively............architectural/landscape shooters require larger megapixel sensors, its not a luxury item for us. I cannot do my job well with a canon or a nikon fulframe camera.
If you prefer an integrated software solution you can use Capture Shop or the upcoming Xposure............I hope that it will also support the Brumbaer DNG.
The great thing is that you have options.........you can use Brumbaer and take the DNG through
developer of your choice or take the raw files through the manufacturer's integrated software
solution. The adapter plates give you hardware options to many optical platforms and there is the HY6 if you prefer an integrated optical and receptor solution.
If file quality is the most important selection criteria.............go for an emotion back and if you want the sensor to perform like the hot rods in Mad Max use the Brumbaer tools: its like the nitro
valve in those race cars. If you needs are more general and universal, it can also driven like a minivan.
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I am always upset to hear of colleague's bad experiences with equipment issues. There is nothing worse than something going down during a shoot, with a client in the room. It all used to be so simple. To quote a line from "The Godfather" - "This is the business we have chosen". It's hard enough making a living in photography these days and the complexity of image capture now is something none of us could have dreamed of 15years ago. But it is all slowly getting better. Emphasis on slowly.
I too, like Prakesh, have had the opposite experience with Sinar support. I can't tell you about Leaf or Phase support as I have no history with them, but I am sure they are all about equal. First at the dealer level, Ulsaker Studios in New England has been incredible with rentals, loaner equipment and a wealth of knowledge and experience from actually working for years with this stuff. And I have to add here that I didn't even buy my original equipment from them, and that they are the same distance as nyc for me. Same experience with the USA distributor Sinar Bron and regional reps. And then there is Theirry, whom I've never met, is thousands of miles away and I feel that he is a friend just "down the street". He is always available to answer my sometimes ignorant questions, and, if it is something he can't answer he will refer my question to the appropriate person at the factory in Switzerland.
If I had any major issues with this company I would be the first on this board bashing, but I don't.
Why did I choose a 54H and P3?-because it is the best tool for my work. The interchangeable adapters is jsut a bonus for me as I use it on Contax 645 also, or something else in the future. Yes, Captureshop leaves a something to be desired. I compare it to my Ford f-150 pickup-no frills but a good work truck, simple and relatively stable. I know of Brumbaer Tools thanks to Ranier V. and I've gotten as far as downloading it but just haven't had the time to set it up yet. Exposure is real, I've seen it and it's coming, but maybe not as fast as we hope, especially tethered support for last generation backs such as mine.
How many years did it take Nikon to develop the D3? In my opinion, the first digital 35 that is mechanically on a par with the F5, and the best 35mm file quality currently available. Nikon support/software???-terrible- don't get me started-besides this is the wrong board for Nikon bashing.
Best,
Frank Poole
www.frankpoole.com
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I'm disappointed to hear that some Sinar dealers are letting the team down. Bad news spreads far and quickly and can create a distorted impression of a company.
I have been dealing with Thierry and directly with Sinar in Switzerland. Thierry, especially, has been very responsive and helpful and in fact delivering MORE than I have a right to expect. He is truly an asset to Sinar. Thierry, the vodka shots are on me if you are ever in Tallinn
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Follow up. I am writing to say that Thierry has been abundantly helpful. No real problems solved yet but at least an ally on the fight. Brumbaer is said to have a tether program but has stopped distributing it. But in any case I agree with the aforementioned note, why do we have to rely on a private individual to do the work we pay Sinar to do. It blows me away. Ok I am going to lay back now. I changed my post as it seems to have too much anger in it but I feel that anger coming up again so I will stop and just say to the big heads at Sinar. Get to work and fix the problems.