Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: ternst on September 25, 2007, 04:43:10 pm
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I've searched the web over and cannot locate a source for natural color track lights for use in a small gallery. I'm using the info from MR's gallery discussion - Phillips Natural Light Plus bulbs. I have the model # and other info from the Phillips web site, but can't locate anything with those numbers or the name "Natural Light Plus." I don't live near a big city so am unable to shop in person. Does anyone have a source for these? Any info would be most appreciated.
Tim Ernst in Arkansas
http://www.cloudland.net (http://www.cloudland.net)
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Tim,
Have you considered Solux lighting? I use their track light system.
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Hi, I'm just ordered this kit from Solux for my color proofing studio...
https://www.solux.net/cgi-bin/tlistore/colo...tml?id=L4b44eDE (https://www.solux.net/cgi-bin/tlistore/colorproofkit.html?id=L4b44eDE)
This company is a reputable "natural light" source, and you can order online check their website, they offer several options that probably will fit your gallery needs.
Hope this helps
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Thanks for the info guys but I was looking for the larger fixtures and bulbs - and goodness those solex items are up to 5x times the cost - even the bare track is 2x. Still, I wonder how much light those little bulbs put out - I have tall ceilings and very large prints and the bulbs will be a good distance above the prints. I do like their selection of different light temps.
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and goodness those solex items are up to 5x times the cost
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=141875\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Solux bulbs seems to be in the range of eight bucks each.
Wanted to give them a try, but they would not budge from using UPS as their standard shipper. Seems that shipping to Alaska would have been about 32 dollars for four bulbs. i.e double the cost. They could ship USPS but have a extra charge of 50 dollars for that option. Gee, USPS even has in office pickup and email postage.
Thus no business from Alaska for their products. Most unreasonable shipping to say the least and do not appreciate being taken to the cleaners.........
Jim
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Does anyone know wether 'Phillips Natural Light Plus' bulbs are available in Europe (230 V) and what they are called over here? I would like to compare them to the SoLux bulbs I am currently using.
Thanks
Andrew
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Jim:
I was talking about the track and fixtures - way over the top of all others I have looked into (fixtures $30 vs. $8, track $40 vs. $20, the 50w black/black bulbs are $15 vs $8 - I'll be putting up about 100' of track). I'm still trying to find out if their little 50 watt bulbs would be enough light to cover a larger print from a distance like the much larger and 75 watt par 30 bulbs. Also still trying to find a source for the Phillips Natural Light Plus if anyone knows where they can be found. Thanks!
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I've searched the web over and cannot locate a source for natural color track lights for use in a small gallery. I'm using the info from MR's gallery discussion - Phillips Natural Light Plus bulbs. I have the model # and other info from the Phillips web site, but can't locate anything with those numbers or the name "Natural Light Plus." I don't live near a big city so am unable to shop in person. Does anyone have a source for these? Any info would be most appreciated.
Tim Ernst in Arkansas
http://www.cloudland.net (http://www.cloudland.net)
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=141811\")
Phi-l-ips got a license from Solux to produce similar lamps for the European market. The Diamondline Pro range. To me an indication that the Solux technology is sound.
At the bottom of this page is the spectral distribution of the Solux. There's also the Philips 950 fluorescent's chart that is considered to be good but not in the same class as the continuous Solux curve.
[a href=\"http://www.pixelpad.nl/downloaden/lichtbronnen.pdf]http://www.pixelpad.nl/downloaden/lichtbronnen.pdf[/url]
I think the lamps you are looking for are available in Wal-Mart etc.
Ernst Dinkla
try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/)
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I've been to Wal Mart, Home Depot, Lowes, etc., but nothing that says anything like Natural Light Plus or with the correct product numbers. I'm beginning to lean towards the solux lights now, especially since there seems to be a supply issue with the Phillips...
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Speaking of the solux, there seems to be a bit of uncertainty about the color temp of what should be used for color proofing. Some say use 3500 for gallery display but use 4700 for color proofing, others say use 3500 for both, but then it is impossible to calibrate the monitor for this. I just had a discussion with the guy from solux and he said the same thing. This seems to be part of a larger question of printing for a known light source and then having the print displayed elsewhere. But if the known lightsource is a gallery-standard 3500k, then why proof to a 4700k or 5000k light source? It does not make any sense.
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Speaking of the solux, there seems to be a bit of uncertainty about the color temp of what should be used for color proofing. Some say use 3500 for gallery display but use 4700 for color proofing, others say use 3500 for both, but then it is impossible to calibrate the monitor for this. I just had a discussion with the guy from solux and he said the same thing. This seems to be part of a larger question of printing for a known light source and then having the print displayed elsewhere. But if the known lightsource is a gallery-standard 3500k, then why proof to a 4700k or 5000k light source? It does not make any sense.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=141941\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
What are galleries using to get 3500K? My understanding, such as it is, is that incandescents top out somewhere in the mid to upper 2000K range. Standard quartz halogens top out in the upper 2000K range. At least that's what I find when I search around looking for stuff on the web, find in spec. sheets, and find on the packaging. The only thing I've found in the 3000s are various fluorescents, and I've never found a gallery running fluorescents.
So what are galleries using to get to 3500K?
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Well, if you believe solux, lots of galleries are using the solux bulbs, which you can get at 3500, 4100, 4700, and 5000 - these are the smaller bulbs, 50w. Since I'm unable to test this stuff myself in short order I have to believe what I read here or hear from others, like solux.
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Well, if you believe solux, lots of galleries are using the solux bulbs, which you can get at 3500, 4100, 4700, and 5000 - these are the smaller bulbs, 50w. Since I'm unable to test this stuff myself in short order I have to believe what I read here or hear from others, like solux.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=141976\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks to Andrew Rodney and Ernst Dinkla who showed me spectro results of the Solux lights I now have the Solux "Color Proofing Light Kit". Yes, Andrew, I ditched the Ott Lights. I chose the 4700K. I wanted to proof for daylight. I do know local galleries using the Solux 3500K lighting but their decision was based on the belief that they sell more when things look warmer in the gallery. I prefer to proof based on daylight and guide customers to have good light for my prints.
YMMV and I'm sure others have a different approach.
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I've been to Wal Mart, Home Depot, Lowes, etc., but nothing that says anything like Natural Light Plus or with the correct product numbers.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=141941\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
If one must use flourscents, I have been surprisingly happy with the affordable "Phillips Natural Daylight 91 CRI" bulbs. They also have a "Phillips Natural Daylight 86 CRI" that looks terrible. I know 91 CRI doesn't sound like much but real world careful examination shows very few differences between it, daylight and solux. Not bad for a $3 florescent. I still prefer Solux over any flourscents. Like yourself, I don't know where to send people for mail ordering. Many places that carry them aren't willing to ship them due to complications with breakage.
Speaking of the solux, there seems to be a bit of uncertainty about the color temp of what should be used for color proofing. Some say use 3500 for gallery display but use 4700 for color proofing...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=141941\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I personally feel that 4100 is the happy medium between the overly warm incandescent and overly cool 5000K+ lighting that dominates our industry. Color temp has a psychological impact that can range from "Ohh this is so warm - I feel comfortable and sleepy" to "this light is so cold I feel like I am in a sterile hospital." 4100K is a color temp that you are less likely to have either reaction to. I feel that there is way too much discussion of color temp and not enough discussion of CRI. In the end, it's CRI that is important and Solux delivers.
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One of my main concerns about all of this to me is the brightness of the bulbs - are the small 50w solux bulbs bright enough to light a 40 x60 print from a 10' tall ceiling properly? I don't want to have to use two bulbs per print. By getting their wider beams the coverage will be plenty, I just don't know if there is enough power in the bulbs - anyone have thoughts on that? I don't have much experience in gallery lighting, but need to get something right the first time via mail order as I don't have any way to see any of this in person. Thanks for all the discussion so far...
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are the small 50w solux bulbs bright enough to light a 40 x60 print from a 10' tall ceiling properly? [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=141999\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
How far away is the light on the ceiling form the wall?
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The lights will probably be 3'-4' feet out from the wall - enough to light the print evenly without any glare, although most of these will be canvas prints so glare is not much of an issue. I haven't actually measured, but perhaps 5'-6' feet away from the center of the print? I'm still putting all of this together.
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I'm using the Solux Bulbs in an inexpensive track I got at Home depot. Works great.
My ceiling height is 8', about 3' off the wall. I think 10' high would still give you enough light.
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Thanks, Mark. Are you using the solux fixtures too, or just the bulbs? I suspect they are the same, although since each fixture has its own transformer there might be some quality issues. The track would be the same no matter. And are you using the 35w or 50w bulbs? Thanks...
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I still prefer Solux over any flourscents. Like yourself, I don't know where to send people for mail ordering. Many places that carry them aren't willing to ship them due to complications with breakage.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=141996\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I have found B&H Photo to be good, if a little more expensive than others have mentioned.
Regards,
Richard
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One part of this that is lurking in the background is the fact that Michael just went through picking a gallery lighting setup last spring - and he picked the larger par 30 Phillips lamps, which is how I got interested in them in the first place. I wonder why he choose the par 30 lamps over the solux system?
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I feel that there is way too much discussion of color temp and not enough discussion of CRI. In the end, it's CRI that is important and Solux delivers.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=141996\")
True, the inksets have less metamerism these days so prints are less fixed on one color temperature if the Kruithof curve is respected in lighting them and the lamps used have a continuous spectral distribution, both in the studio and gallery.
I'm a bit more sceptic on the light at homes, offices, the trend is towards saving energy and that means (compact) fluorescents and LED light here in Europe. At best both get several layers of broadband fluorescents but that will not hide their one to three band spectral origin, not if they still have to save energy.
BTW, few artists know what kind of lighting is used for their prints even if their prints go to major exhibitions. Often you print for more shows after another and at the end the art buyer will not use the same light when that print gets its place on the wall. I think we have an obligation to add a lighting advice on paper with the print. Probably a better service to the customer than adding a chop mark or certificate.
I should make changes here too, still working with the Just Normlights and Philips 950 fluorescent overall lighting where the printers are. Added some 3000K halogene lamps to mix and switch between them on the final proof check. Will add the Philips Diamondline 4100K and see if that's the better compromise.
Ernst Dinkla
try: [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]
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Hi!
I should make changes here too, still working with the Just Normlights and Philips 950 fluorescent overall lighting where the printers are. Added some 3000K halogene lamps to mix and switch between them on the final proof check. Will add the Philips Diamondline 4100K and see if that's the better compromise.
Ernst Dinkla
Have you noticed differences between Just Normlicht 5000K and Philips 950? I have been using Just tubes and have been quite happy with them but lately I have started to suspect they give a slight greenish tint. Maybe the tubes have come to their end. Also the Gretag Color Checker gives a color temp of about 5000K but the tint is +13 when photographed with 1Ds and processed in ACR. Unfortunately I do not have any photos of the GM CC with the same camera taken when the tubes were new.
Also I feel the neutrals on my screen look slightly magenta-tinted when viewed under Just-light and I don't remember this being the case a year or two ago. (This might be because of the difference between 6500K screen and 5000K light???)
I didn't find much info about Philips Diamond line Pro and the only color temp seems to be 4100K. Have you seen 4700K or 5000K? And what about prices? Solux seems to be very expensive in EU.
For some prepress work I would be most interested in near 5000K bulbs.
Regards,
J
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I didn't find much info about Philips Diamond line Pro and the only color temp seems to be 4100K. Have you seen 4700K or 5000K? And what about prices? [{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=142182\")
I found a bit more information on the german version of the Philips website:
[a href=\"http://www.prismaecat.lighting.philips.com/ecat/Light/ApplicationRouter.aspx?fh_reffacet=categories&fh_location=%2f%2fprof%2fde_DE%2fcategories%3c%7bfepplg%7d%2fcountries%3e%7bde_DE%7d%2fstatus%3e%7bact%7d%2fcategories%3c%7bc_0002fepplg_75_ep01%7d%2fcategories%3c%7bc_0012fepplg_1116_ep01lhal%7d%2fcategories%3c%7bc_0002fepplg_1127_ep01ldir%7d%2fcategories%3c%7bf_0052fepplg_1127_phl_hdiaml%7d&fh_refview=summary&fh_refpath=de_DE_facet_7384357181&fh_eds=ß&left_nav=de_de&]Philips Diamondline[/url]
The bulbs come 18 versions: in 4700K, 4100K, 3500K, and various versions of them (10°, 24°, 36°, and 50W, 35W).
Prices around 7 to 10 Euros.
Cheers,
Andrew
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Hi!
Thank you very much!
I found a bit more information on the german version of the Philips website:
Philips Diamondline
The bulbs come 18 versions: in 4700K, 4100K, 3500K, and various versions of them (10°, 24°, 36°, and 50W, 35W).
Prices around 7 to 10 Euros.
Cheers,
Andrew
Cheers,
J
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No spectral distribution chart for the Philips Diamondline Pro range but there's some other information on the lamps on pages 58-59 of this PDF:
http://www.lighting.philips.com/ch_de/oem/...de_halogen4.pdf (http://www.lighting.philips.com/ch_de/oem/luminaire/distributors/oem_part/pdf/pldn_k648_oemguide_halogen4.pdf)
On the greener output of the Just Normlight, I see less red light component compared to the Gretag Macbeth fluorescents in this article:
http://www.babelcolor.com/download/Light_u..._2005-11-08.pdf (http://www.babelcolor.com/download/Light_under_control_2005-11-08.pdf)
and a slightly higher cyan peak in the spectral distribution chart of the Just lamps in that article if compared to the rough chart of the Philips 950 in this PDF, red drop off the same though:
http://www.pixelpad.nl/downloaden/lichtbronnen.pdf (http://www.pixelpad.nl/downloaden/lichtbronnen.pdf)
On camera sensors for measuring spectra: there's an article (with flaws) on sensor sensibility differences that could explain why a fluorescent's spectral peak fits one of the sensor RGB filters better on one camera than on the other. Something that will not be easily compensated with software filters. Nobody will like to get white balance tables in his camera for every fluorescent lamp on the market:
http://photoclubalpha.com/2007/09/10/kms-u...ur-vs-the-rest/ (http://photoclubalpha.com/2007/09/10/kms-unique-7d5d-colour-vs-the-rest/)
The 1Ds is a special case on itself.
The Babelcolor article is a good guide for studio lighting.
Ernst Dinkla
try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/)
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Hi!
Many thanks for pointing out these sources!
I had read the Babelcolor article but naturally forgotten that already . I probably have to learn to use Google...
Btw, has anyone tried Osram Decostar 51 Cool Blue (12V 50W 38°) halogen bulbs? Osram lists it as 4500°K light and markets it especially for jewellery shops etc (like Philips Diamond line pro).
Cheers,
J
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Thanks, Mark. Are you using the solux fixtures too, or just the bulbs? I suspect they are the same, although since each fixture has its own transformer there might be some quality issues. The track would be the same no matter. And are you using the 35w or 50w bulbs? Thanks...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142027\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm using the 50w bulbs. The fixtures and track are standard Home Depot gear.
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OK I am confused ....
I was ready to purchase this ....
6500K full Spectrum (http://www.lightbulbs-direct.com/variant_detail.asp?var=3422)
for colour proofing beacuse I thought the light has to be as pure white as possible.
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OK I am confused ....
I was ready to purchase this ....
6500K full Spectrum (http://www.lightbulbs-direct.com/variant_detail.asp?var=3422)
for colour proofing beacuse I thought the light has to be as pure white as possible.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=142401\")
First of all it will not be a pure white light, none of the fluorescents are perfectly white and white is relative to the daylight variations in K. Secondly, few places will have 6500 K lighting for pictures on the wall but outdoor shows. 6500K could be a sensible choice for sign printshops. The 5000K standard (offset printing etc) used before was a compromise between outdoor and indoor lighting, the trend for exhibition pictures goes to warmer colors hence the discussion about the use of 3500 <> 5000 K.
Ernst Dinkla
try: [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]
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OK I am confused ....
I was ready to purchase this ....
6500K full Spectrum (http://www.lightbulbs-direct.com/variant_detail.asp?var=3422)
for colour proofing beacuse I thought the light has to be as pure white as possible.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=142401\")
What Ernst, Andrew and others have been sharing is that you need to look at the spectral analysis to understand the light source not just the claim to be daylight or "pure white".
[a href=\"http://www.solux.net/comparison.htm]Solux comparisons[/url]
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OK Thanks Ernst and Ron,
Perhaps the 'pure white' reference was wrong, my wording ..
But if I was printing for different clients who would display their pictures in a wide range of lighting conditions ... in their home (too many lighting combinations to think about), gallery etc etc, then would I not want my proof lighting to be as, what can I use here,... compatible as possible? And not to introduce a color cast on my prints that shouldn't be there?
Your help with this is appreciated.
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I'm using the 50w bulbs. The fixtures and track are standard Home Depot gear.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142242\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I am using the same thing here- standard Home Depot track & fixtures with Solux bulbs. They're great! I've had no problems at all with the track/fixture/bulb combo. So save yourself some money and get at least the track from Home Depot/Lowes.
The one nice feature of the Solux fixture is that closed/black back- the fixtures I have have an open back (to dissapate heat I'd assume), and it's not a major annoyance, but if you look up, you definitely see all the spilled light all over the ceiling coming out of the backs of the fixtures. So I guess the Solux fixtures would just be a cleaner installation once you're finished.
But in my office, not a big deal. If I was using them in a gallery space, or a place in my studio to show off prints, I might want the slightly nicer (albeit pricier) Solux fixtures just for the aesthetic reason.
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Jason:
I think the solux fixtures also have the vented backs so the light from normal bulbs will spill out of them as well. They sell a "black back" bulb that is painted black and there is no light out the back, but that is due to the bulb and not the fixture. These painted bulbs are twice the price of their normal bulbs ($15 vs. $7).
I probably am going to go with the Solux bulbs and will get track/fixtures I found online (cheaper than Home Depot, and Lowes no longer stocks these 12volt fixtures). Michael told me that he got the Phillips Natural Light Bulbs simply because that is what they had in stock at the local Home Depot - I thought it had been as a result of years of testing!