Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: H1/A75 Guy on September 15, 2007, 12:06:30 pm
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I have had a couple of inqueries to a casual post on another thread. The point of this thread is to allow people to share info on retailers they feel have provided fair MF back pricing and after sales support. As an enduser, I'm neither advertising nor soliciting for this retailer. I purchased my A75 two years ago for $24,500US including a 30GB Digital Magazine and 3 year warranty at no extra charge. My local retailer is Keeble & Shuchat Photography in Palo Alto, CA. (San Francisco Bay Area). The phone number for their Professional Equipment division is (415) 327-8522. You would want to talk to Mary or Don. I never saw or have seen their price list although it would not be a secret. My feeling is they quote a price and the real price may (or may not) be lower when you come in to buy. I think they may try and weed out the serious from the not so serious, if that makes sense to you. Their after sales support is world class. On the downside, Keeble & Shuchat handles all MF backs except Phase and you will need to factor in an additional 8 1/4% Sales Tax for the state of California to your price.
David
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I have yet to buy a DB but have been searching for months, my problem is that the dealers all seem to be so secretive about pricing that they end up being pissed off that I am even calling and asking"what is your price?". my favorite dealer so far is Samy's Camera but there prices are the highest!
my main problem is I just dont think the digital back's price is "worth it". I want a P21+ or a Leaf 54s but am only willing to pay $11,500. So I will probably have to wait. I have been using the 1Ds MK2 for a couple years and will definitely buy the new 1Ds Mk3 but I know that I will need both the Canon and the Digital Back. Both have their own place in my work and i dont feel that one is "better" than the other, just different.
So if anyone has a good experience with getting one of these backs from a cool dealer with a great price, please let me know.
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I like the "up front" pricing of the mamiya zd but I wonder how much more one could get into a p21 for for ? How is the average amount off list one expects to pay? Capture list the P21 for 12k , would 10.5k be doable?
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I like the "up front" pricing of the mamiya zd but I wonder how much more one could get into a p21 for for ? How is the average amount off list one expects to pay? Capture list the P21 for 12k , would 10.5k be doable?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139619\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
but the ZD sucks......
the best prices on a P21 I have seen is 10 grand for a refurb. the best for a P21+ is $13,500. BUT, I have heard from others here that you can get a P21 refurb for $8,000 and a P21+ for $12,000. Where? I dont know!
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I like the "up front" pricing of the mamiya zd but I wonder how much more one could get into a p21 for for ? How is the average amount off list one expects to pay? Capture list the P21 for 12k , would 10.5k be doable?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139619\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
As I understand it Digital Back sales may be handled allot like Automobile sales. The Manufacturer provides retailers with a Manufacturers Suggested Retail (List) Price (MSRP). They may also provide the retailer with the Dealer Net price. The Dealer Net price can be substantially below the MSRP. For example, a high end back may have a list price of $32,995 and the Dealer Net maybe $24,450. As I'm not in the retail business so I have no idea what Dealer Net means. If anyone on this forum understands and can explain the term, please don't be afraid to share. There are some prices that maybe fairly firm, such as $7,000US for a ZD back which is a good value. There may be some play in the price of higher end backs, depending on the retailer. Sometimes it may even help to ban together with another potential buyer to try and leverage a better price with a retailer. I was quoted a price of $6,995 today just to upgrade from an A75 to an A75s. Since I'm not against the buffer I'll pass on the upgrade for now. The good news is things may get brighter in the near future, or at least more interesting with the release of the Hy6/AFi in December.
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As I understand it Digital Back sales may be handled allot like Automobile sales. The Manufacturer provides retailers with a Manufacturers Suggested Retail (List) Price (MSRP). They may also provide the retailer with the Dealer Net price. The Dealer Net price can be substantially below the MSRP. For example, a high end back may have a list price of $32,995 and the Dealer Net maybe $24,450. As I'm not in the retail business so I have no idea what Dealer Net means. If anyone on this forum understands and can explain the term, please don't be afraid to share. There are some prices that maybe fairly firm, such as $7,000US for a ZD back which is a good value. There may be some play in the price of higher end backs, depending on the retailer. Sometimes it may even help to ban together with another potential buyer to try and leverage a better price with a retailer. I was quoted a price of $6,995 today just to upgrade from an A75 to an A75s. Since I'm not against the buffer I'll pass on the upgrade for now. The good news is things may get brighter in the near future, or at least more interesting with the release of the Hy6/AFi in December.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139626\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
has anybody gotten a price on the HY6 w/ an 80mm lens with a 54s or w/ out?
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"but the ZD sucks......"
Uh, I doubt that is the case. It is limited but I wouldnt go so far as to say that it sucks.
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has anybody gotten a price on the HY6 w/ an 80mm lens with a 54s or w/ out?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139631\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No price as yet. I would guess $8,500US for an Hy6/AFi kit with 80MM and WLF. Then the price of the back. Anyone care to form an alliance and take a run at a couple of retailers when this stuff comes available?
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No price as yet. I would guess $8,500US for an Hy6/AFi kit with 80MM and WLF. Then the price of the back. Anyone care to form an alliance and take a run at a couple of retailers when this stuff comes available?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139634\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
i would expect the prices of the back and camera kit (hy6 with sinar back, afi with a leaf back) to be priced similarly to the h3d counterparts...if anyone is in nyc, calumet is having the sinar people in on the 9/20 to introduce the hy6 from 10 am -1 pm.
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At least one Sinar dealer in Europe is publishing official list prices (MSRP) for MONTHS on their website now, so please stop complaining that nothing is known:
Sinar Hy6 Body € 3.155,00
Sinar Hy6-e75LV, complete set € 25.255,00
Sinar Hy6-e54LV, complete set € 18.295,00
Sinar Hy6-m54, complete set € 17.000,00
Prism Finder 90° Hy6 € 1.210,00
Waist-level Finder Hy6 € 405,00
Hy6 Film Magazine Adapter for 4560 € 475,00
Regards,
EPd
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139663\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Just shows I need to get out more. I wish I knew what those numbers meant in US dollars, but at least list pricing seems rock solid in Europe. I recieved a notice from an LL contributor who states, "Is it really bad if I tell you I paid less for my A75? I paid $21,000US, I worked a deal to buy a Aptus 22 for $15,000 and then paid another $6,000 at the same time upgrade to a new A75". Jeez.. I knew I over paid for my A75. Seems like the best time to work the price is just prior to new product launch. Good news is, it shouldn't matter much. Nobody is paying much attention to these rants.
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but the ZD sucks......
the best prices on a P21 I have seen is 10 grand for a refurb. the best for a P21+ is $13,500. BUT, I have heard from others here that you can get a P21 refurb for $8,000 and a P21+ for $12,000. Where? I dont know!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139623\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Careful. "ZD Sucks," might be a little strong. Have you used it extensively? There are a number of us who are still working with and evaluating this back.
Yes, it may not offer the complete package that the higher end Phase One backs (or others) but "sucks," is a little harsh. My own take has been that this back does some things very well (color and dynamic range, for example) and struggles at others (noise at higher iso and long exposure).
-Freeheel
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Careful. "ZD Sucks," might be a little strong. Have you used it extensively? There are a number of us who are still working with and evaluating this back.
Yes, it may not offer the complete package that the higher end Phase One backs (or others) but "sucks," is a little harsh. My own take has been that this back does some things very well (color and dynamic range, for example) and struggles at others (noise at higher iso and long exposure).
-Freeheel
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139687\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
ok it doesnt suck but nobody I know would buy it. how about "irrelevent".
I would like to hear from more DB owners about how much they paid for there backs. we all know the list prices are not the real prices. so anyone out there, how much have you guys been paying for P21, P30, P25, Aptus 22, 54s, etc. ?
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Just shows I need to get out more. I wish I knew what those numbers meant in US dollars, but at least list pricing seems rock solid in Europe.
Try http://www.xe.com (http://www.xe.com) for currency conversion...
Mike
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I had the same problems in finding pricing when I first began the great search earlier this year. I had made up my mind on a Phase One Back and was fortunate to find Capture Integration’s website where they post prices http://www.captureintegration.com/sales/index.html (http://www.captureintegration.com/sales/index.html). This was the only site where I found that Mamiya was offering a promotion.
I contacted Capture Integration and began the negotiations which resulted in a price that we both could live with.
Don
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I had the same problems in finding pricing when I first began the great search earlier this year. I had made up my mind on a Phase One Back and was fortunate to find Capture Integration’s website where they post prices http://www.captureintegration.com/sales/index.html (http://www.captureintegration.com/sales/index.html). This was the only site where I found that Mamiya was offering a promotion.
I contacted Capture Integration and began the negotiations which resulted in a price that we both could live with.
Don
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139819\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes, Capture Integration certain seem to be keen to deal, and pro active in their marketing! Wish there were more dealers like them in Europe!
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I just hate the bickering part of it all. I may never make 51 percent of my income from photography but I have enough funds to make a go at a p21 or mamiya zd. I really dont want a CFV but it does make pretty pictures. When I buy a car I get all of the facts, the prices, hang out on forums and i know what I am paying before i walk in. If I dont get the deal I walk back out. I don't think I can get to this point on a MDFB but I would like to get as close to it as possible.
And as far as the ZD sucks comment, geez, that is just ridiculous. I have seen pics from it and it looks really nice. So what if its not the jack of all trades MFDB. The closest size MFDB in sensor size and pixels twice the list price of the ZD. You pay half and perhaps you get 70 percent of the functionality. That sounds pretty good to me. Does the CFV suck too?
We have two backs we know the exact price of, the ZD and the CFV. I would like to have firm prices on at least a phase p21 and perhaps something else.
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Just shows I need to get out more. I wish I knew what those numbers meant in US dollars, but at least list pricing seems rock solid in Europe. I recieved a notice from an LL contributor who states, "Is it really bad if I tell you I paid less for my A75? I paid $21,000US, I worked a deal to buy a Aptus 22 for $15,000 and then paid another $6,000 at the same time upgrade to a new A75". Jeez.. I knew I over paid for my A75. Seems like the best time to work the price is just prior to new product launch. Good news is, it shouldn't matter much. Nobody is paying much attention to these rants.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139665\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Is there any way to find out who the vendor was for the $21k A75? I understand
it's an upgrade, but his A22 price seems quite low as well. I've been shopping
for a p45+, but haven't yet encountered anyone who will go much below list.
I'd be quite happy with an A75 at those prices. I guess I need to get out more too.
Tony
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Is there any way to find out who the vendor was for the $21k A75? I understand
it's an upgrade, but his A22 price seems quite low as well. I've been shopping
for a p45+, but haven't yet encountered anyone who will go much below list.
I'd be quite happy with an A75 at those prices. I guess I need to get out more too.
Tony
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139877\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The store may have been Calumet. Manufacturer's and dealer's know what they are going to make when product doesn't move. Since the MF back business is brisk, they can also say, "That's the price, end of story, next". The problem is photographers are a nervous bunch and like to work ALONE. Occasionally an independent photographer may score a good pricel on his own but generally that results from a unique circumstance like a new prduct launch involving upgrades, or whatever. The reason I got my A75 for $24,500 was because I was in the store at the same time another photographer happened to be looking at the A75. The salesperson said she would talk to the store owner, and came back with that price. She later called the Leaf rep who threw in the 30GB Digital magazine and 3 year warranty. The other photographer even reneged on the deal and later bought an Imacon back. But, everyone was happy as far as I know. I'm a believer that working together works. The dealer may tell the photographer, "Gee we don't have have any margin on these new backs", but you know better. Working together may give a store owner and product rep pause to think, "Ya know, if I sell two of these things and these people are probably going to upgrade, buy more lenses, more equipment, why not?". I bought allot lenses and whatever since my original A75 purchase so store owner knows he has made his money from the few dollars he may have saved me on the back. I need an A75s upgrade, or a Leaf AFi/A75s like I need a hole-in-the-head, but if a store owner and/or product rep want to work me on pricing, why not.
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Here's a helpful video on how to buy a medium format back:
http://tinyurl.com/2ljehl (http://tinyurl.com/2ljehl)
Oops, my bad, but the principle is basically the same.
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I purchased -12 months ago- a Mamiya mount P25 that was like new and had one year warranty for $14k
I have no need to upgrade to anything yet because for what I shoot this is perfect -- artwork at galleries and looking for architectural and interior--.
The way I arrived at this price is by looking everywhere on line and then contacting a dealer with my own quote of what I needed. I found a $14.5k price but in California, since I'm in NY, I walked in a distributor here and said: "I have this offer, what do you think" and they got me one for $500 less and in NY. They also helped me a bit with the credit and some training.
A digital back has no moving parts (almost) and mine works with no hiccups (it hates when you shoot tethered with less than 50% juice on the laptop, but you just plug the computer in and there is no problem)
Then, the cost of Mamiya gear has nothing to do with other systems, everything I have (150mm,80mm, 45mm, 35mm and an AFD) I have purchased or traded and it all looks and works like new.
ok it doesnt suck but nobody I know would buy it. how about "irrelevent".
I would like to hear from more DB owners about how much they paid for there backs. we all know the list prices are not the real prices. so anyone out there, how much have you guys been paying for P21, P30, P25, Aptus 22, 54s, etc. ?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139752\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I took over someones CF39 for 22K USD with one year of warranty. He upgraded to another brand, back was never used.
My other back an A17, I bought new (refurb) with one year warranty for 7600USD last year early september. I was one of the happy 500? that bought a refurb for 7600USD. Not long after that the A17 refurb got bumped up to around 9000.
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I don't see how anyone can say the cost of mamiya gear has no relevance on other systems. The cost of the other systems will definitely have an impact on a Canon 1dsMIII so how would the mamiya be any different. I think the mamiya provides a "known quantity" of what 7k will buy you. It provides a good reference of which to compare the prices of other backs too. Perhaps I should start a bottom feeders MFDB thread for those of us cross shopping the phase p20 and p21, a17, CFV and ZD.
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The store may have been Calumet. Manufacturer's and dealer's know what they are going to make when product doesn't move. Since the MF back business is brisk, they can also say, "That's the price, end of story, next". The problem is photographers are a nervous bunch and like to work ALONE. Occasionally an independent photographer may score a good pricel on his own but generally that results from a unique circumstance like a new prduct launch involving upgrades, or whatever. The reason I got my A75 for $24,500 was because I was in the store at the same time another photographer happened to be looking at the A75. The salesperson said she would talk to the store owner, and came back with that price. She later called the Leaf rep who threw in the 30GB Digital magazine and 3 year warranty. The other photographer even reneged on the deal and later bought an Imacon back. But, everyone was happy as far as I know. I'm a believer that working together works. The dealer may tell the photographer, "Gee we don't have have any margin on these new backs", but you know better. Working together may give a store owner and product rep pause to think, "Ya know, if I sell two of these things and these people are probably going to upgrade, buy more lenses, more equipment, why not?". I bought allot lenses and whatever since my original A75 purchase so store owner knows he has made his money from the few dollars he may have saved me on the back. I need an A75s upgrade, or a Leaf AFi/A75s like I need a hole-in-the-head, but if a store owner and/or product rep want to work me on pricing, why not.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139884\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks for the insights. I'm glad to hear that it's possible to get
deals at calumet. Sounds like the timing was perfect in your case.
Tony
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Thanks for the insights. I'm glad to hear that it's possible to get
deals at calumet. Sounds like the timing was perfect in your case.
Tony
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140082\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
There are multiple ways to get the dealers attention to work with you on the price, one of them being to remind them of your repeat business, which may or may not always work. I beleave a win-win situation for the buyer/seller is to present the store boss with the opportunity to sell multiple backs. The advantage of this forum is that any photographer can come on LL and say, "Hey, I'm looking to purchase a Phase back. Is anyone out there looking to do the same?". Now you've opened the door for the opportunity to work the price buy working together, even if the product you are looking for is different i.e. one P-25 and one P-45+. You may even go the extra step ask what the product rep can do for you, 3 year warranty, a Lexus, whatever. It may be cozier than we like to get with each other, but it can actually be painless and fun, and a bit easier on the wallet. Unlike car sales, the store boss can always say no, but when two people walk out, that's two backs he didn't sell, not just one. It's just a thought. Hell, we have the money conversion table and have had the car buyer training so we should be set to go..