Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Henry Goh on September 05, 2007, 02:03:47 am

Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: Henry Goh on September 05, 2007, 02:03:47 am
Seems to me after Frank Doorhof discovered "purple worms" and switched out of Mamiya ZD back, we don't hear of other owners complaining.  Either there are no new buyers for ZD/ZD backs or if there are, they are happy with their gear and have no issues.  Of course there is still problems with the Firewire which has been reported since day one but are there any good ZD sensors in use?  If there is a chance of finding a good sensor, I think the 22MP Mamiya cannot be beat on price for a long time to come.

So, is there any owner who can say that he is not having issues with either ZD camera or ZD back, notwithstanding the firewire problem?

Henry
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: Frank Doorhof on September 05, 2007, 03:00:06 am
Hi,
I indeed am afraid some people over reacted.
The purple artifacts I mentioned were in the last back and according to Mamiya that should not be seen on the new backs or the backs before that batch, it was purely a QC issue with one batch.

I did mention this over and over

For it's price it's still a wonderful back.
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: Henry Goh on September 05, 2007, 03:04:23 am
Quote
Hi,
I indeed am afraid some people over reacted.
The purple artifacts I mentioned were in the last back and according to Mamiya that should not be seen on the new backs or the backs before that batch, it was purely a QC issue with one batch.

I did mention this over and over

For it's price it's still a wonderful back.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137394\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That is how I read it too Frank but I feel there must be many owners by now who are using ZD and have been lucky enough to have good backs.  I want to hear from these owners and see some of their images if possible.

Henry
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: stefan marquardt on September 05, 2007, 03:24:22 am
So, is there any owner who can say that he is not having issues with either ZD camera or ZD back, notwithstanding the firewire problem?

Henry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137388\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
[/quote]


hi,
 no problems whatsoever! (with the ZD camera)
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: Henry Goh on September 05, 2007, 03:26:17 am
Thanks Stefan!

Any particular image on your site that was shot with this camera?
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: stefan marquardt on September 05, 2007, 05:38:56 am
Quote
Thanks Stefan!

Any particular image on your site that was shot with this camera?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=137400\")

most of the furniture-photos, like these:

[a href=\"http://www.stefanmarquardt-architekturbild.de/reiss_detail/reiss_detail.html]http://www.stefanmarquardt-architekturbild...iss_detail.html[/url]
http://www.stefanmarquardt-architekturbild...sch-stuhl1.html (http://www.stefanmarquardt-architekturbild.de/brunner-tisch-stuhl1/brunner-tisch-stuhl1.html)
http://www.stefanmarquardt-architekturbild...te-stuehle.html (http://www.stefanmarquardt-architekturbild.de/brunner-bunte-stuehle/brunner-bunte-stuehle.html)
http://www.stefanmarquardt-architekturbild...fotografie.html (http://www.stefanmarquardt-architekturbild.de/mobelfotografie/mobelfotografie.html)
http://www.stefanmarquardt-architekturbild...er_theater.html (http://www.stefanmarquardt-architekturbild.de/brunner_theater/brunner_theater.html)
http://www.stefanmarquardt-architekturbild...eiss_tisch.html (http://www.stefanmarquardt-architekturbild.de/reiss_tisch/reiss_tisch.html)


the rest is mostly 5D and 1ds - and the older ones 4x5.
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: mcfoto on September 05, 2007, 06:23:27 am
Hi
I have spent the last 4 days going into Sydney shooting APEC as a personal project with the ZD camera, 35 & 55-110 plus a pile of flash cards. No problems, I even shot with the 35mm @ 1/20 sec f 3.5 iso 125 & got a really good result hand held. It is a really amazing camera. Battery life has been excellent as I haven't viewed that many shots, shot 394 yesterday & did not change my battery @ about 19 C.
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: Henry Goh on September 05, 2007, 06:42:52 am
Quote
Hi
I have spent the last 4 days going into Sydney shooting APEC as a personal project with the ZD camera, 35 & 55-110 plus a pile of flash cards. No problems, I even shot with the 35mm @ 1/20 sec f 3.5 iso 125 & got a really good result hand held. It is a really amazing camera. Battery life has been excellent as I haven't viewed that many shots, shot 394 yesterday & did not change my battery @ about 19 C.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137421\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks for sharing this info Denis.
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: doncody on September 05, 2007, 09:38:56 am
Quote
Thanks for sharing this info Denis.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137423\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Like you Henry I am pulling for Mamiya on this one, but I believe both Stefan and Denis's results are from the ZD Camera and not an attached back to a 645 or RZ.  Hope I'm wrong!

Maybe they can comment.

Don
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: MichaelEzra on September 05, 2007, 09:45:31 am
I have ZD camera, so far no problems, except dead firewire
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: ronno on September 05, 2007, 10:00:22 am
Quote
I have ZD camera, so far no problems, except dead firewire
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137454\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

How is it working with those long tonal range nude images you're doing?
Any chance you'd show a couple larger B&W images from this camera?
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: Ed Jack on September 05, 2007, 10:04:54 am
Quote
I have ZD camera, so far no problems, except dead firewire
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137454\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

  I don't have a ZD, but demo'ed one in a shop.. I was very impressed with the handling.
 Mamiya lenses are great value for money... I say this as a H1 user who can hardilly afford the lenses for this system.

 In this sense mamiya can be seen as a viable alternative to High end canon kit, but with the 22MP 1DsIII coming, I would have thought that the ZD is already on the drawing board with presumably the 33MP Full frame Dalsa chip to justify a higher retail price marketing wise. The MKII should be esier to get to market, as they can just swap sensors and upgrade the electronics.

 I hope a ZDMKII will be announced soon - nothing wrong with an early announcement as long as they keep to teh dealine more or less (thins time)!! This would be a real coup over Canon, who are inadvertantly eating into the MF digital market at hte bottom price bracked (the ZD serries)
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: Snook on September 05, 2007, 10:05:40 am
I agree.. seems like they have sold a lot of units but no body ringing in defending this back.
What is up?
I figure Either they have discovered a great deal and do not want to share..:+} Or they are extremely disappointed and embarrassed to comment?
I do not get it.
And most in here commenting have the Camera not the back. go figure.
The last examples posted here by steph were nice but they obviously were shot with a lot of light. I would personally like to see more people or fashion stuff shot with it.
I am on the hunt for soemthing. Just picked up some AFDII stuff. Only missing the back.
Stuck between Leaf and phase one and or SAVING big and ggetting a ZD for just studio portrait stuff as I will definetly be keeping my 1DsMII for catalogue etc...
Can some more people please post.
And preferably the BACK not the camera.
Snook
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: MichaelEzra on September 05, 2007, 10:09:48 am
It is working really great. I will post 100% crops in the evening today or tomorrow.
ZD loves highlights, so I always overexpose 1.5 stops to get very clean shadows.


Quote
How is it working with those long tonal range nude images you're doing?
Any chance you'd show a couple larger B&W images from this camera?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137460\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: stefan marquardt on September 05, 2007, 10:41:22 am
Quote
I would personally like to see more people or fashion stuff shot with it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137463\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

hi, to be honest, for anything like people or fashion I would stick with mark tuckers advice on the "Valid MF criticism or not?" thread (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=19198&st=120#)
and stick with the next canon and dpp. especialy the moire-possibility with fahion shots with the ZD (no aa-filter) would worry me.
I just recieved an very high quality printed broschure with my shots from 4x5, 1ds, 5d and ZD - I would have a hard time figuring out which photo came from which camera.
Don´t get me wrong - I realy like the ZD. But I always work from a tripod and often have to fight high contrast scenes. this is where the ZD shines: high dynamic range, good contrast, deep and powerfull shadows and absolutely wunderfull highlights.


stefan
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: bcroslin on September 05, 2007, 11:05:12 am
deleted
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: bcroslin on September 05, 2007, 11:07:42 am
deleted
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: Frank Doorhof on September 05, 2007, 11:38:09 am
Hi,
Sorry to tell you but check the left side of your picture, there you can see the purple stamps I was posting about.
You have to go full screen in the browser it's just to small but zoom in 1:1 and you can see them running down vertical.

With my defective back this was WAY worse and also on ISO200 very visable, however I do see it some other shots now also.
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: bcroslin on September 05, 2007, 11:44:42 am
deleted
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: Snook on September 05, 2007, 11:46:15 am
That looks pretty good and even the 400 ASA shot does not look so bad but ofcourse it is with flash so that is a different story. I NEVER  shoot above 100 asa so that is not a problem. if I do, I'll grab the 1DsMII or 5DMII that I will get for sure for back up.
I also shoot with flash, in doors or out about 95% of the time also.
I was worry about Buffer and purple worms more than Noise as I never shoot above 100.
Does anybody know if the 50 asa option, true 50 asa or is it like Canon where you actually are not getting 50 asa.
Thanks for the comments.
I still find it strange that no body is posting anything about the ZD.
In any case for 6,999.00 it is hard to beat. I also never rely on my 1DsMII LCD that much either and I shoot tethered about a couple times a year also so that is no biggie either.
If Phase one or Leaf do not make me a good offer here son, I just might be checking out a ZD for the heck of it as it is not such a BIG investment.
B&H seems to get just a couple in and they sold out. I have not seen any more shipments in the last 3 weeks from them. What is the deal with getting a ZD back in the US.?
And how can you be assured not to get a back with the "worm" problem? Serial numbers ###?
Thanks
Snook
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: bcroslin on September 05, 2007, 11:55:58 am
deleted
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: Frank Doorhof on September 05, 2007, 12:46:05 pm
edited
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: bcroslin on September 05, 2007, 01:11:36 pm
deleted
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: bcroslin on September 05, 2007, 01:18:58 pm
deleted
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: bcroslin on September 05, 2007, 01:47:20 pm
deleted
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: Snook on September 05, 2007, 01:56:12 pm
I agree 100%.
That is NOT color noise. That is Purple BLOBS!
Let's get that straight.
This is my main concern and I too find it ridiculous that Mamiya does not have a RECALL on this.
If I were to have that happen on a job they paid me $$$$$$ I would be out of a job next time and that cannot happen.
This medium format is getting frustrating to say the least!
Where I live I cannot go and just return it.
Which ever MFDB i go I will ALWAYS have either the 1DsMII orIII or 5DMII as back up no doubt.
My worries now are also that for much of the Magazines and stuff I do, I am not even sure that MFD is much better than the 1DsMII or even the 5D. I will get heat for this, but I am in the doubting stage now and the 1DsMIII is looking like more of a better option..
Unfortunely I just invested in a AFDII 35mm and 55-110 zoom...  
From what I am reading in a lot of the forums now is that for magazine print a lot of people are stating that there is no difference in the MFDB and 1DsMII? Is that true?
I find it hard to believe but that is the vibe that is coming around.
It is mainly for guy that want 4x6FT prints in galleries?
Am I completely wrong here?
Thanks for any more information.
Snook
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: Frank Doorhof on September 05, 2007, 02:06:41 pm
Bob, did you calibrate your monitor for brightness ?
In the dark areas on the ISO400 shots they are seen very clearly on my monitor.
If you want to make sure, crank up your brightness about 20% and you will see what I mean.

It's not noise, noise is not bad, in the early day it was called grain (well ok it's different I know), I never have had a problem with noise, sometimes it really adds to a picture.
HOWEVER this purple wurms I'm calling them show up in skintones and in other colors, it's not noise but it's like a stamp on the pictures, for me that's a real problem, my customers want a clean image colorwise, they don't care about a little noise, that can be killed by many many plugins.

However these purple artifacts are not.

Ofcourse you don't have to shoot on ISO400 on a MF back, HOWEVER the problem I have is that when you pull shadows on an ISO100 file you can also see them, especially in skin tones which drove me nuts.
Also the strange thing was that on my first back I did not have a problem.

The main concern for me is and I'm torn between this.
Mamiya claims that it's ONE batch only with problem, now I see alot of ZD back files and on alot of them I can point the purple artifacts out.
Mamiya has always been very honest with me during my test time with the ZD back, however I'm now in doubt what is happening, it's not as bad as with my back what you show, but they are clear as day, and even on ISO400 or even ISO800 (pulled from ISO400) it should NOT happen.
Noise on ISO400 or ISO800 is quite normal, even pattern noise is normal (although irritating) but this is something else.

Maybe it's a killer test but try to shoot a dark subject on ISO400 and underexpose one stop, now get in ACR and get the exposure one stop up, it will show MUCH more clearly.
Of course people will say, you don't do that, well ok I agree but the problem is that the purple is also seen on anything above ISO125 on my last back and it got increasingly worse when I got to ISO400 where it was clear as day.

There was some talk about the 5D a while ago where people would underexpose an ISO3200 shot by 2 stops pulled it up and complained about PATTERN noise/banding in shadows.
Again that is normal and can be fixed.
This I don't know what it is must be a fault in their filter or software and I think that if more people report it they can and will fix it.

It's a killer product for a killer price, but this is something they should fix or indeed limit the back to ISO100.
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: Frank Doorhof on September 05, 2007, 02:15:02 pm
@Snook,
There will always be discussion about it.
I'm very picky quality wise and I think there is a huge difference in my files from the 5D or 1DsII and the ZD or Leaf Aptus22.

Some people will look at it and say I don't see it.
Same with the purple I circled for me it jumped straight out to me VERY obvious, the poster doesn't see it.

I will not say someone has bad eyes or doesn't know were to look I will never put someone down because they see things different than me, let's make that 100% clear.

Let's also make 100% clear that for ME the medium format system is much better than my DSLR in many sectors.
HOWEVER again when you look at what will do my JOB the 1DsIII will be a killer machine.

Let's make it even easier.
When you run a express service.
A simple low budget car will do just fine and bring you from A-B in the same time as a very expensive luxery car. Your customer doesn't care one bit.
So you have to make the choice for your self do I take the money and invest it in a simple car and make more money, or do I want to sit comforable and earn less money.

With MF it's a bit the same.
Your customer being a magazine or a model won't see a difference probarbly (although I think that is not true but I will let that rest) so why invest in MF ??

1. It will give you an edge over competition who still shoot DSLR's, maybe your customer is sensitive for this.
2. Because YOU PERSONALLY just want the absolute best.

I think that point 2 is maybe one of the most important things, I'm a photographer with a PASSION for what I do and I want to be excited every shot I take, the MF system gives me that, the DR, color, sharpness 3D look etc. etc.

When I was doing photography as a profession and only thought about turnover and it was WORK I would buy the 1DsIII in a heartbeat.
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: samuel_js on September 05, 2007, 02:39:53 pm
Quote
Here I have circled them.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137497\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I can see them, but just because you circled them. The other one in the arm is more obvious and disturbing ...
What gamma is the calibration of your monitor? I calibrate mine in 2.2.
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: Anders_HK on September 05, 2007, 03:59:16 pm
ZD users, please take a look at my test at http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=18922 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=18922).

On my ZD camera I see similar as Bob Croslin;s but more bluish-purple. It shows in dark near black areas and even at ISO 50 when I look careful. At ISO 50 it is weak but still can show. At higher ISO it shows more. View your display with no reflections on the display. On mine seem different than Frank's. Frank;s was more obvious stamped and much worse than Bob;s

This does not seem like a noise. I cannot clean it with noiseware (SilkyPix, Noise Ninja).

Please post at http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=18922 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=18922) or here of what you find in testing (good or bad). I have my agent test a ZD camera to see if they get on that one. Will be interesting if more people test both camera and back similar to how I did.

I do not like what I see on mine. At 50 & 100 ISO I expect it to not be present.

Regards
Anders
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: Frank Doorhof on September 05, 2007, 04:38:33 pm
I calibrate at D6500 gamma 2.2 CRT.
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: Bernd B. on September 05, 2007, 05:38:19 pm
Bob, why did you delete all your posts and sample images in this thread?
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: David Blankenship on September 05, 2007, 07:18:01 pm
Quote
I agree 100%.
That is NOT color noise. That is Purple BLOBS!
Let's get that straight.
This is my main concern and I too find it ridiculous that Mamiya does not have a RECALL on this.
If I were to have that happen on a job they paid me $$$$$$ I would be out of a job next time and that cannot happen.
This medium format is getting frustrating to say the least!
Where I live I cannot go and just return it.
Which ever MFDB i go I will ALWAYS have either the 1DsMII orIII or 5DMII as back up no doubt.
My worries now are also that for much of the Magazines and stuff I do, I am not even sure that MFD is much better than the 1DsMII or even the 5D. I will get heat for this, but I am in the doubting stage now and the 1DsMIII is looking like more of a better option..
Unfortunely I just invested in a AFDII 35mm and 55-110 zoom...  
From what I am reading in a lot of the forums now is that for magazine print a lot of people are stating that there is no difference in the MFDB and 1DsMII? Is that true?
I find it hard to believe but that is the vibe that is coming around.
It is mainly for guy that want 4x6FT prints in galleries?
Am I completely wrong here?
Thanks for any more information.
Snook
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137513\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Snook I feel your PAIN & Frustration on your MFDB Quest!!!!!

 Most of the people who comment about file quaility = color, sharpness  and  camera format chip sizes on this forum  are males.  A little know fact I learned from Our Big Yellow Father "KODAK" in the mid 80's at a Color Print Management Workshop  was that 60% of all males perceive color very poorly and 20% of the 60 percent  are  basicilly color blind. Women in general have a accuracy rate in viewing color at  85% or better.
  When someone makes a statement that the difference between a 16/20mp Canon file and a 39 mp Phase, Hasselblad, Sinar or Leaf file is very litlle at a A4 size they may very well be telling the truth as they SEE it.      At that  color workshop there was  75 people, 65 males and 10 women, we all took a Kodak  color perception test and 50% of the males failed the test with scores below 60 and all the women scored 80 or higher.  The two highest scores were 94 by a female  &  98 by a male,   which just so happen to be me.  Just goes to show men can get in touch with there feminine side.    
  I recently entered a print competition and printed files from a 6mp, 10 mp and 12 mp dslr cameras.
The print sizes were A4  and mounted black foam core which a 3 inch border. The subject matter was enviromental portraits of Research Engineers and Scientist  and they where photographed with the same lens but different brands of cameras.  I asked 3 co-workers to pick out the 6 megapixel file from the three A4 prints I made   My judges where  two graphic designers and one photographer and they all concluded that the six megapixel file was the most film like and had  the best image quaility.
  The 6 mp file was shot on a Fuji S2 in jpeg  fine quality mode and the other two files came from a Nikon D200 & Nikon D2X in raw mode.  I really did not believe the Fuji was the sharpest of the three files but the color was the most film like and the quality between the three files was very similar at A4,  it wasn't until I blew them  up to 24 x 30 that the D2X file started to really shine.
  So...... will the  20 mp Canon file have a similar look as the Medium format files at A4.......most likey Yes, will there  be big diffence between them  at A4,  Most likey NO....... But if your interested  in the highest quality available in a managable camera format  that you can live with and can afford then MFDB are the Cat's MEow, the Dog's HOwl and the  Cow's MOo.......................................... Keep the flaming to a moderate level please!!!    

db
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: samuel_js on September 05, 2007, 08:04:35 pm
Quote
Snook I feel your PAIN & Frustration on your MFDB Quest!!!!!

 Most of the people who comment about file quaility = color, sharpness  and  camera format chip sizes on this forum  are males.  A little know fact I learned from Our Big Yellow Father "KODAK" in the mid 80's at a Color Print Management Workshop  was that 60% of all males perceive color very poorly and 20% of the 60 percent  are  basicilly color blind. Women in general have a accuracy rate in viewing color at  85% or better.
  When someone makes a statement that the difference between a 16/20mp Canon file and a 39 mp Phase, Hasselblad, Sinar or Leaf file is very litlle at a A4 size they may very well be telling the truth as they SEE it.      At that  color workshop there was  75 people, 65 males and 10 women, we all took a Kodak  color perception test and 50% of the males failed the test with scores below 60 and all the women scored 80 or higher.  The two highest scores were 94 by a female  &  98 by a male,   which just so happen to be me.  Just goes to show men can get in touch with there feminine side.    
  I recently entered a print competition and printed files from a 6mp, 10 mp and 12 mp dslr cameras.
The print sizes were A4  and mounted black foam core which a 3 inch border. The subject matter was enviromental portraits of Research Engineers and Scientist  and they where photographed with the same lens but different brands of cameras.  I asked 3 co-workers to pick out the 6 megapixel file from the three A4 prints I made   My judges where  two graphic designers and one photographer and they all concluded that the six megapixel file was the most film like and had  the best image quaility.
  The 6 mp file was shot on a Fuji S2 in jpeg  fine quality mode and the other two files came from a Nikon D200 & Nikon D2X in raw mode.  I really did not believe the Fuji was the sharpest of the three files but the color was the most film like and the quality between the three files was very similar at A4,  it wasn't until I blew them  up to 24 x 30 that the D2X file started to really shine.
  So...... will the  20 mp Canon file have a similar look as the Medium format files at A4.......most likey Yes, will there  be big diffence between them  at A4,  Most likey NO....... But if your interested  in the highest quality available in a managable camera format  that you can live with and can afford then MFDB are the Cat's MEow, the Dog's HOwl and the  Cow's MOo.......................................... Keep the flaming to a moderate level please!!!    

db
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137571\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Ok, here we go again...  

Could you please look at the folowing images and make a comparison. Is one of them better? Are they similar? Different formats? Same formats? Sharp? Pixelcount?
Lets see your 98 score  


(http://www.samuelaxelsson.com/temp/compared.jpg)
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: Henry Goh on September 05, 2007, 08:06:38 pm
Due to the time difference, I just woke up from slumber and found that Bob has deleted his posts and so did Frank on a few of his.  I'm quite saddened because I had started this thread hoping to see more images, good or bad.  I guess the exchanges must have gotten too hot.  I hope no one got ruffled but nonetheless, I like to thank Bob and Frank for contributing to this thread.  I only wish I had been able to see those images for myself since I really want to make a decision in the near future on the ZD / ZD back.

Sometimes, people get a bit rough in their replies, whether unintentionally or because of being "lost in translation" due to the language differences of such an international community. I guess we need to be sensitive as I'm sure everyone here participates with the intention of sharing or receiving good information.

Hope to hear from more users still.  May I suggest a possible (remotely possible?) reason for some of these discolorations - temperature.  If people with purplish / magenta / green issues could try this.  Leave your camera or back off and unused.  Switch on, take a few shots quickly so that the camera is working from a cool state.  Next, just keep the camera on and shoot at various ISOs for say 50 or 60 frames and then shoot a few of the same setup as the cooled first few frames.  Now examine the first few frames and the last few frames.  Are there any differences?  Are there any color fringing or discoloration?  Please share with us.

I almost bought the Kodak 14n a few years ago but there were so many "Italian" flag issues, high ISO noise issues, red blob issues that I stopped after waiting for fixes over a year.  However, the Kodak forum at dpreview.com was a very helpful and willing one.  Although people had paid good money and found they had issues with their cameras, they were willing to share and together they did push Kodak to provide many firmware fixes.  If they had kept quiet, I'm sure that Kodak would not have worked as hard on those firmware fixes. Unfortunately, Kodak gave up on themselves.  My worry is if we don't push for fixes from Mamiya on issues, then it won't get better for anyone here.  Not to forget also, Kodak is a financially stronger company than Mamiya (is right now) and if Kodak can give up what are the chances of Mamiya giving up completely???  So, we should get Mamiya to do this quickly and hopefully, overcome any issues with their cameras.  Sales should then go up and they will have a better reason to stay in this business.  We on the other hand will have an alternative to the otherwise "hog-your-wife" / "sell-your-right-kidney" club of MFDB users.

Hope people will continue sharing .....please......

Henry
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: Frank Doorhof on September 06, 2007, 03:03:30 am
@Samual,
I think the first picture show a good deal of 3D, the second picture looks flat.

HOWEVER the light in the first picture contributes for 90% of the 3D look as does the DOF.

It's always difficult to say 123.
As mentioned in the other thread it's best to shoot a Canon and MF next to each other.
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: eronald on September 06, 2007, 05:06:57 am
David,

 Thanks to you, finally, some inconvenient facts surface.

 PHOTOGRAPHERS OFTEN HAVE MEDIOCRE COLOR VISION. BUT THEIR CLIENTS USUALLY DO HAVE GOOD COLOR VISION.
 THE FASHION RETOUCHERS, PICTURE EDITORS AND ***READERS*** ARE MOSTLY FEMALE.
 IF YOUR COLOR IS BAD, YOUR CLIENTS WILL KNOW BEFORE YOU DO.


Edmund


Quote
Snook I feel your PAIN & Frustration on your MFDB Quest!!!!!

 Most of the people who comment about file quaility = color, sharpness  and  camera format chip sizes on this forum  are males.  A little know fact I learned from Our Big Yellow Father "KODAK" in the mid 80's at a Color Print Management Workshop  was that 60% of all males perceive color very poorly and 20% of the 60 percent  are  basicilly color blind. Women in general have a accuracy rate in viewing color at  85% or better.

db
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137571\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: thsinar on September 06, 2007, 05:44:06 am
... the light .... and the viewcamera for the selective plane of sharpness (tilt)?: sharpness is running from the upper top (curtains) through the sofa and down the flooor.

Thierry

Quote
@Samual,
I think the first picture show a good deal of 3D, the second picture looks flat.

HOWEVER the light in the first picture contributes for 90% of the 3D look as does the DOF.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137638\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: Henry Goh on September 06, 2007, 05:50:42 am
I'm sure we can start another thread on 3D looks of various cameras and format but can we kindly get back to the ZD camera and ZD back.  Thank you.

Henry
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: mcfoto on September 06, 2007, 07:55:16 am
Hi
I have spent the last 5 days going into Sydney shooting APEC as a photo journalist would with the ZD. It is a brilliant camera & this one is 16 months old ( no upgrade). My Canon 5D sits idle at the moment. It is light weight & easy to use......... BUT for some reason I feel & maybe there are pixel peepers out there or Mamiya haters.........SORRY.............BUT this is becoming stupid!!!!!!!!!I am getting great results & if we loose Mamiya that is it for AFFORDABLE MFD PERIOD. If you don't like the ZD format buy something else! Yes Leaf is better but that ZD camera is brilliant!!!! It truly is a MFD SLR camera. I have been using RD on a MAC..........I don't know what else to say!!!!!!
Denis
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: Anders_HK on September 06, 2007, 09:10:01 am
Quote
Hi
I have spent the last 5 days going into Sydney shooting APEC as a photo journalist would with the ZD. It is a brilliant camera & this one is 16 months old ( no upgrade). My Canon 5D sits idle at the moment. It is light weight & easy to use......... BUT for some reason I feel & maybe there are pixel peepers out there or Mamiya haters.........SORRY.............BUT this is becoming stupid!!!!!!!!!I am getting great results & if we loose Mamiya that is it for AFFORDABLE MFD PERIOD. If you don't like the ZD format buy something else! Yes Leaf is better but that ZD camera is brilliant!!!! It truly is a MFD SLR camera. I have been using RD on a MAC..........I don't know what else to say!!!!!!
Denis
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137668\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Denis,

I agree with you.

The ZD camera is amazing to me in that in its shape of a DSLR being medium format! In fact its weight with lenses weighs no more than top of line Nikon or Canon (although focal lengths and widest aperatures are tradeoffs, but if I would go back Nikon I would have same weight, only more variety of focals..., do I need them?). The comparative low weight of Mamiya medium format is amazing in itself.

With the ZD we are at lower $$ than any medium format digital (same cost as top of line Nikon or Canon, which is still alot of $$$) and have attributes of the larger medium format: 3D, greater DOF control, pop, truly great DR & truly amazing exposure latitude (coming from D200), improved color over DSLRs and ease of working with files. Thus the ZD impress me. I like Mamiya. I love my 7II too which I got my first Velvia 50 from the other day. Dang. It is good. Velvia magic! Before I only shot it in 135. I wish Mamiya to excel and improve on what they have with the ZD. Yes, it is lots less $$$ than other medium format digital offerings, but like you I am also much impressed by the ZD camera body. Ok, reviews wrote of the flimsy CF door. Personally I do not see problem. The one thing on body is the shaping of holding it in one hand when walking around. So what? Image quality is what counts.

Apart from all of above, I very much hope that Mamiya indeed fully support us with any deficiencies there may be, and in taking swift actions to correct them. I even wish that there will be a ZD II with a higher MP Dalsa sensor. And... that Mamiya will offer the incentive of an affordable rebuild of our already ZD camera bodies with a higher pixel sensor and improved performance. As of course also to improve on noise or any other issue that may be current.

Ken Rockwell wrote of the Mamiya 7 that he thought the build was not very good, but it would still capture amazing captures. I'd say the build of both 7 and ZD are good. Ok, not the gold that Nikon has on lenses... but so what? Photography is what matters. Not the aesthetics or gimmicks. One thing I do like on the ZD camera compared to D200, is that the controls are much more simple and what I need for photography, not the complex computer that the D200 seemed to me.

These are indeed what I value in the ZD camera.

Regards
Anders
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: Henry Goh on September 06, 2007, 09:19:30 am
sigh... I only wish to see more images for myself...

Guess it is too much to ask after all.

Henry
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: Anders_HK on September 06, 2007, 09:34:10 am
 
Quote
sigh... I only wish to see more images for myself...

Guess it is too much to ask after all.

Henry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137680\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Henry,

I hear you  

From my first shoot... waterfall. I am only starting out with my ZD camera... too silly of me in backlight not to use expsore compensation, no worries... I think I used +1.5!!! in SilkyPix on both... unheard of for DSLRs....  one made a great print in my office... beats a much larger HDR print from D200 hands down. The HDR from D200 looks plain flat.

A third photo from my second landscape shoot is posted also. I stood there waiting for an opening of light for about one hour, waiting in the one spot I liked. Since these I have re-read SilkyPix manual and can propably process better. It is a very good program, also for the ZD.

Mamiya...??? mmm....  

Regards
Anders
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: doncody on September 06, 2007, 09:41:20 am
Quote
Denis,

I don't see anyone being a Mamiya hater. When I headed to our pro shop to demo the ZD back, I had to go back to the studio because I forgot my checkbook. I had all intentions of trying it, looking at files on my laptop and taking one with me. But that didn't happen, because the ZD BACK does have some problems and Bob simply couldn't see what was obvious that his back showed some of the same color blobs. We can say til we're blue in the face that most won't use ISO 400 but the color blobs are showing up at lower ISOs as well or if recovering shadow detail.

We all need to realize that the ZD camera and ZD back are two completely different products in nearly all respects except for the sensor. One has been out for years and works for its owners and the other is new and showing signs of issues that kill my confidence on the product. That's why I want to see samples and hear experience from other ZD back owners, and I'm sure other people want that as well because the ZD camera is not and will not be available in the U.S. for sale or support. So the back is the only Mamiya branded option here. At the moment, comparing the two ZD products doesn't work for potential buyers to get any idea of image quality.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137681\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks John, that's the point I was trying to make in my earlier post.  It appears to be a QC problem with the most recent batch of wafers/sensors, which I believe Frank pointed to.  I guess the question is...is that in fact the problem, and when will it be fixed?  Has anyone bought a BACK recently and didn't have problems?  
By the way I'm pulling for Mamiya on this one, and like others was ready to pull the trigger until hearing of these issues.
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: Anders_HK on September 06, 2007, 09:46:24 am
Quote
At the moment, comparing the two ZD products doesn't work for potential buyers to get any idea of image quality.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137681\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

John,

From what I can tell from my ZD camera FD series, it is same image quality as the ZD back. Both ZD back and camera are same.

Regards
Anders
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: David Blankenship on September 06, 2007, 10:14:28 am
Quote
Thanks John, that's the point I was trying to make in my earlier post.  It appears to be a QC problem with the most recent batch of wafers/sensors, which I believe Frank pointed to.  I guess the question is...is that in fact the problem, and when will it be fixed?  Has anyone bought a BACK recently and didn't have problems? 
By the way I'm pulling for Mamiya on this one, and like others was ready to pull the trigger until hearing of these issues.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137683\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Don,

I feel the same as you on the Mamiya ZD camera & ZD Back, I am waiting for the Mamiya to sort out it's color issues as I have a $5000.00 Kodak SLRN camera sitting in the cabinet with less than 2000 exposures on it and I don't won't to make another repeat of this bad purchase with the Mamiya ZD.     So I will wait another 3 to 5 months for the ZD  color issues or QC problems to be worked out.  I am rooting for Mamiya and ALL MFDB companies to lower the price of their products.  I personally don't like upgrading every 1.5 years on digital  cameras, why can't we just upgrade the SENSOR and download new FIRMWARE.  I enjoy reading new Camera manuals about as much as reading STEREO  INSTRUCTION MANuals..............NOT........      


db
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: David Blankenship on September 06, 2007, 10:31:35 am
Quote
Anders,

I don't think your camera does this:

Image of car overexposed by 0.5-1.0 stops (http://www.schweikertphoto.com/image_downloads/MMFC0012.jpg)

ZD camera owners are saying they can overexpose and recover highlights well. Look at that image at the tire and bumper. 100 ISO with purple crap in the darker values.  That's why I say, at the moment, the back and camera are not comparable in image quality. If and when Mamiya has this worked out then purhaps they will be.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137693\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

John,

I like your work on your website , especially the series section.   The image you posted wasn't all that bad in the tire and bumper area, especially if you burn it down 10 to 15 percent. Do you have a  better example of the purple fringing in the shadows.

db
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: mtomalty on September 06, 2007, 11:47:53 am
[quot]
 The image you posted wasn't all that bad in the tire and bumper area, especially if you burn it down 10 to 15 percent.
[/quote]


Well,it may not be all that bad but it's really not that good.

If you were shooting commercially and had to reproduce,within a few percentage points,
the color of that bumper you'd have a problem or,at the very least, additionl work to
repair the problem that you would not have with competing products.

John,what I find curious about your posted test image is the tire area.
I get the impression that there is some sort of branding type of text on the tire that is
there but is impossible to define what it is.
Is there,actually,something there or am i just imaging this.  I would expect a 22 Mp capture
to easily render this information,even in flatly lit shadow areas.

Mark
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: ronno on September 06, 2007, 12:27:54 pm
Quote
Hi
I have spent the last 5 days going into Sydney shooting APEC as a photo journalist would with the ZD. It is a brilliant camera & this one is 16 months old ( no upgrade). My Canon 5D sits idle at the moment. It is light weight & easy to use......... BUT for some reason I feel & maybe there are pixel peepers out there or Mamiya haters.........SORRY.............BUT this is becoming stupid!!!!!!!!!I am getting great results & if we loose Mamiya that is it for AFFORDABLE MFD PERIOD. If you don't like the ZD format buy something else! Yes Leaf is better but that ZD camera is brilliant!!!! It truly is a MFD SLR camera. I have been using RD on a MAC..........I don't know what else to say!!!!!!
Denis
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137668\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Useful information!
Hey mcphoto, how much more D.R. would you guess you are getting with the Mamiya over your 5D?
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: David Blankenship on September 06, 2007, 12:33:26 pm
Quote
Mark,

That image was shot at 2.8 with the 80mm. I was actually focusing on the headlight to look at how well it dealt with highlights and fringing at blown areas, not expecting to see purple in the darker tones.

Here is another example of a properly exposed image 100 ISO, crop 100%. First one is all flat no adjustments and the second is the same image with saturation boost to show a purple V shape slightly angled. Not a reflection, because I have a sequence of 4 frames from 100-400 ISO when the same thing shows up to some degree in each one and then turns green in the 400 shot. I am not trying to make a huge deal out of all this, but there is an issue with these backs right now, or some of them. With very few people providing examples, it is hard to tell if it's isolated or no one is buying these backs.

normal (http://www.schweikertphoto.com/image_downloads/MMFC0011-1.jpg)

saturation boosted (http://www.schweikertphoto.com/image_downloads/MMFC0011-2.jpg)

I have never seen issues like this in cameras I have owned or used. To me it is unacceptable to go out on a shoot with a ZD back and not know if and when and under what circumstances garbage is going to show up that requires major post work to fix. The reason I am so particular on the darker tones is that I have a lot of personal shooting I am just now getting started with that will be all new portfolio work for a completely new direction in my shooting. I would love to have a $7K back to do that work with for the resolution and greater range of tones than using my Canons.

David, thanks for the comments. My samples may be subtle but in my mind a back where I need to have heavy amount of blacks be 0,0,0 to get rid of some of this just won't work. Not for what I will be working on.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137712\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The  purple fringing look of the  ZD files are very similar to my Kodak SLRN files.  My remedy to that problem was buyng a Nikon D2X camera and putting the Kodak SLRN back in the box it came in.   I  am hoping  that  Mamiya can work out the problem by December 2007.  I would rather spent $8000.00 on a 22 mp back than $16,000.00 to $18,000.00.  

db
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: Frank Doorhof on September 06, 2007, 01:18:47 pm
@MCfoto,
I don't know if you mean me by Mamiya hater (because in the same sentence leaf is mentioned).

YES I did switch to Leaf.
But I don't hate Mamiya however I do have a big problem at this moment.

I made a very enthiousastic review based on an OLD back, I found the quality absolutly wonderful, when I switched backs all the artifacts came out.
According to Mamiya this was ONE batch so I kept quiet, but I see ALOT of those shots popping up from all over the world.

For me I have two choices.
I can keep my mouth shut and be a bad reviewer or I can say something.
The question is how serious will Mamiya pick it up.

I have ZERO experience with the ZD camera but on almost ALL samples from the ZD back I have seen up untill now I see the purple artifacts (like a sort of stamps).

I think it's very important to let Mamiya hear this, I don't believe it's pixelpeeping, let's be totally honest with each other, although it's the cheapest MF system out there, it's still a whole lot of money and I expect some problems like a bad LCD, slow in buffer etc. etc. all of that is NO problem as long as the outcome is ok.
I would even accept a limit to ISO200.
But as you can see on the shot of the car from John look at the bumper it's clearly seen.

NOISE is not an issue for me that's normal but this is really bad, I also believe that Mamiya is working on it and will fix it, so I'm a bit at a crossroads, I love Mamiya alot and think that in basic the product is stunning, however with the purple artifacts it's unusable for ME.
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: david o on September 06, 2007, 01:30:41 pm
I think unhappy ZD back owner will make more noise than happy ones.
Always hard to tell if it's only a bad batch or if it something that affect the entire production. It would be nice to know fir sure.
BTW Frank what is the difference between your New ZD and your old and why did you end up with a 'new' zd back (before your leaf)
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: SeanPuckett on September 06, 2007, 01:58:04 pm
I can easily see problems in the car wheel/bumper and portrait shots.  I think "livid" would describe my feelings [if I had spent] $6K on a back that produced imagery like that.  To my eye, it looks like some sort of firmware-applied shadow noise reduction that has bad parameters or goes a little ape sometimes -- maybe this came on as a result of Mamiya's push to increase the ISO through software.  I wonder, is there a back setting to disable all noise reduction?

Edit: To clarify, I do not own a ZD Back; I had strong intentions but became distracted by urgent projects and now Frank's "purple worms" alarum has me watching from the side again.  I still believe in the ZD Back as a concept, but this latest round of problems is worrisome.  I'm not liable to believe that the new Nikon/Canon studio shooters will do everything I wish MFDB to do, but my mode right now is: wait and see.  Mighty players are moving quickly.
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: Anders_HK on September 06, 2007, 03:30:48 pm
Quote
Anders,

I don't think your camera does this:

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137693\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
John,

Please make following test with your back:
Post subject lighted by diffused light.
Subject: black non reflecting material in half of frame (black neoprene or camera bag material as example). White in other.
Average metering will work. No exposure compensation thus needed.

Can please someone else with ZD camera do same test and tell what serial (FA-FF?). Please feel free to email me confidentially using yousendit.com.

Regards
Anders
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: Quentin on September 06, 2007, 06:10:16 pm
Having checked a few images from my ZD Camera, "FE" series, I don't see anything as bad or even close to the purple issues on the samples from the some ZD backs.  I mainly use Silkypix.  With a lot of pulling detail out of shadows, there is some colour noise, but it is completely zapped by the colour noise slider in Camera Raw for example, using default settings.

I realize this does not help ZD back owners, but it is relevant to other ZD Camera owners also reading this thread.

Quentin
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: Snook on September 06, 2007, 07:14:28 pm
Quentin, I am beginning to wonder if you really even have a ZD..:+}
Why don't post some images like I ask a while back please..
Thanks..
Snook
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: mcfoto on September 06, 2007, 08:42:41 pm
Quote
Useful information!
Hey mcphoto, how much more D.R. would you guess you are getting with the Mamiya over your 5D?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137715\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Hi
I don't really compare the ZD to the 5D. I compare the ZD to the Aptus 22 & in the studio @ iso 50 they are very close. When for example I shoot clouds the ZD has incredible depth in comparison to the 5D. In the next few months I will be getting the 1DsIII & a few newer lenses. That should be interesting since the new Canon will have 14 bit, the same as the ZD. I still feel that in the low iso 50-100 the ZD will perform better due to the larger sensor ( physically ).
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: Anders_HK on September 06, 2007, 10:59:31 pm
Quote
Anders,

I don't know what the miscommunication is here. You own a ZD camera and this discussion has steered toward any experience and the issues of the ZD BACK. There is no conflict here regarding the ZD camera. While yes they both should give the same image quality, there is a very distinct issue with files I have seen from multiple ZD backs that others have seen as well.

I am not attacking you in any way. I understand that it might seem helpful for ZD camera owners to give their experiences, but I and others are specifically looking for ZD back user experiences because the back is not demonstrating the same quality of files as the camera.

I don't know what more to say.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137747\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

John,

Sorry about any misscommunication.

There is the ZD back and ZD camera. Based on what my agent says they have same internals, only the back is newer. I know what I see from my camera. It looked very similar to what Bob Croslin posted here before on the fence. It does not look same as the very clear stamped that Frank Doorhof described. I am not certain about your bumber and wheel. Neither of us want to do fix of this is postprocessing, right? Are the problems back and camera related?

I am told by my agent that Mamiya is working on this problem, but they are not clear of status or if they are only working on the problem of the back.

I would very much appreciate if you for comparative purposes make same test as I did, described in above post. The bluish/purplish appear to show up primarily in dark areas. Yours on bumper and wheel did so also. Frank Doorhof was on skin.

The discussion is not only ZD back. I am also curious if other ZD camera owners see problem, especially if earlier serial numbers before any upgrade show similar.

Regards
Anders
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: Anders_HK on September 07, 2007, 01:05:08 am
Quote
Anders,

No intention of a members only club on the ZD back, heck I don't even own one, just was and still am very interested in it since I have a full AFD kit sitting around collecting dust at this point. No real dust of course, it sits in a lovely case if someone wants to buy it though. I don't know how long my patience will be waiting for Mamiya to really give the green light on the gone purple worms.

It is very good to hear feedback as yours regarding the Mamiya rep's comments on "we know there's an issue and working on a solution." That's more than some other companies can say when they crawl into their cave during newly released sort-of beta testing gear that needs something seriously fixed.

All feedback is good from both camera and back owners. At some point the image quality of each will hopefully converge for the better.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137807\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

John,

I do like the ZD. Stepping up from DSLR (D200), the dynamic range is wonderful and impress in three ways to me:
- great exposure latitude
- much more you can do in PP and maintain details
- no need for HDR, saves time and besides HDRs look bland in comparison.

I am sure you read Frank Doorhof's other statements of the medium format attributes. I agree on those.

We shall hope Mamiya clear any problems a.s.a.p. What they have in ZD back and camera are great products at competitive price. I wish all problems were solved and they were working on improved noise performance at the higher ISOs and new lenses at decent pricing. The camera is really lovely in its DSLR handling.

We should applaud and encourage them.

Regards
Anders
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: stefan marquardt on September 07, 2007, 03:20:10 am
Quote
John,

Please make following test with your back:
Post subject lighted by diffused light.
Subject: black non reflecting material in half of frame (black neoprene or camera bag material as example). White in other.
Average metering will work. No exposure compensation thus needed.
Anders
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137739\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


hi anders, just did your test (even though I knew the results before that). my old zd shows far more noise than your example. the only difference: yours shows wurmy shapes - mine shows more normale noise in smaler spots.

purely based on the sample you mailed me, i think the problem your are experience is that you dont give the sensor the amount of light it needs. the sensor (like most mf-sensors) screems out for lots of light. Never mind using iso 400:  I always expose for iso 25! and then you get clean shadows. i have seem this before on cameras like the sigma sd9 and the kodaks. if you want a camera for iso 400 (or underexposed iso 100) save yourself the money and get a canon.

otherwise: set it to iso 50, overexpose till the highlight-warning on the camera histogram blinks wildly. dont bother lookig at the camerameter (till last week, I didn´t even realise, I could meter with the ZD and old lenses). use the histogramm and expose to the right.
 and: experiment with different raw processors. for example: RD hadles noise different to the mamiya software or acr.

as for the wurmy-shapes: I had a sigma sd9 exchanged for the same thing. dont know, perhaps they droped some fluff on the sensor when the were puting it together. You might want to get it exchanged for a sensor that shows more fine graine noise. but than again my warning: if you start seen those things - you propably didnt get enough light onto the sensor.

perhaps I got it all wrong though.

stefan



p.s. about the purple wurms: are they always in the same position?
(if they are, that would point to a bad sensor)
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: Quentin on September 07, 2007, 04:38:12 am
Quote
Quentin, I am beginning to wonder if you really even have a ZD..:+}
Why don't post some images like I ask a while back please..
Thanks..
Snook
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137786\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

In the past I have done so - and right here on this board  

I'll rustle up a couple more shortly.

Quentin
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: Henry Goh on September 07, 2007, 10:38:34 am
So can I conclude that the ZD back is the one with some purple blob issues and not as much on the ZD camera?

Henry
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: Anders_HK on September 08, 2007, 01:05:41 am
Quote
hi anders, just did your test (even though I knew the results before that). my old zd shows far more noise than your example. the only difference: yours shows wurmy shapes - mine shows more normale noise in smaler spots.

purely based on the sample you mailed me, i think the problem your are experience is that you dont give the sensor the amount of light it needs. the sensor (like most mf-sensors) screems out for lots of light. Never mind using iso 400:  I always expose for iso 25! and then you get clean shadows. i have seem this before on cameras like the sigma sd9 and the kodaks. if you want a camera for iso 400 (or underexposed iso 100) save yourself the money and get a canon.

otherwise: set it to iso 50, overexpose till the highlight-warning on the camera histogram blinks wildly. dont bother lookig at the camerameter (till last week, I didn´t even realise, I could meter with the ZD and old lenses). use the histogramm and expose to the right.
 and: experiment with different raw processors. for example: RD hadles noise different to the mamiya software or acr.

as for the wurmy-shapes: I had a sigma sd9 exchanged for the same thing. dont know, perhaps they droped some fluff on the sensor when the were puting it together. You might want to get it exchanged for a sensor that shows more fine graine noise. but than again my warning: if you start seen those things - you propably didnt get enough light onto the sensor.

perhaps I got it all wrong though.

stefan
p.s. about the purple wurms: are they always in the same position?
(if they are, that would point to a bad sensor)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137827\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Stefan,

Your reply is very interesting. Much kind thanks for taking a look at those samples and for doing that test. It would be really interesting if someone with a problem back did same test.

Reviewing the histograms from my test photos, there are two spikes not far from white and black limits, so the average metering worked rather good for that. I reran the test this morning to get one spike more towards the right limit and even exceeding it. It is difficult to say precise but if anything I would say shooting to far right made the problem issue worse, not better. It does not seem noise related, noise ware do not touch it.

Last night I got home at around sunset, a cloudy one with openings between clouds. I tested shooting towards right then also, with city view in partial shade and the sky. Seems around +1.0 on camera made best and cleanest. Thanks for advise. I recall I read that Michael Ezra even shoot by +1.5 or more outside. Same time I recall having read a review somewhere that with the ZD (or is my memory failing) one could expose like film rather for the dark, or is that complete wrong, or for certain circumstances?

You mentioned you shoot at ISO 25? My ZD starts from ISO 25. Any trick?

I have tried SilkyPix, CS3 with camera raw, Lightroom, Noise Ninja (I am on PC, so no RD). Of them I like the results and what I can do from SilkyPix best, also with regards to its NR.

Again, very much thanks for running the test, also for the other hints in your post.

Regards
Anders


Henry,

Perhaps the ZD camera at moment is more stable. If it wasn't for the issue I found I would for sure not worry. I really like the design and layout of controls of the ZD camera. I think controls are better than my D200 was, much more for what I feel comofortable with as a camera. The ZD camera is logic, it is simple to pick up if I leave it without shooting for awhile also. I think both Nikon and Canon could learn from Mamiya on this

I do wish the any issues were nonexistent, and instead that Mamiya was improving the noise performance. If both those happen, it is an amazing camera.

Regards
Anders
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: espressogeek on September 08, 2007, 02:33:52 pm
I tried calling my mamiya rep and he didn't call me back. I am desperately serious about getting a MF back and I really want it to be the mamiya since my only other option is the p21. I would rather not get a crop sensor so the mamiya is best in class at the entry level price point. There are other reasons I want the p21, not the least of which is the C1 software, but I won't get into it here.

Since the ZD camera is not sold in the states I would get no warranty. That is a scary gamble at 10k. Since the back is sold here but appears to have some challenges for a few people that is also a scary proposition. This is a real shame and I hope that Mamiya sorts this quickly as I really want to give them my money ;-) .
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: samuel_js on September 08, 2007, 04:47:59 pm
Quote
I tried calling my mamiya rep and he didn't call me back. I am desperately serious about getting a MF back and I really want it to be the mamiya since my only other option is the p21. I would rather not get a crop sensor so the mamiya is best in class at the entry level price point. There are other reasons I want the p21, not the least of which is the C1 software, but I won't get into it here.

Since the ZD camera is not sold in the states I would get no warranty. That is a scary gamble at 10k. Since the back is sold here but appears to have some challenges for a few people that is also a scary proposition. This is a real shame and I hope that Mamiya sorts this quickly as I really want to give them my money ;-) .
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138063\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The Mamiya has a cropped sensor too, and I wrong?   But bigger than the P21. I was in the same situation and got the P21. No regrets.
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: espressogeek on September 08, 2007, 05:23:34 pm
Quote
The Mamiya has a cropped sensor too, and I wrong?   But bigger than the P21. I was in the same situation and got the P21. No regrets.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138074\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well its a 1.1x crop. Phase refers to that as full frame. The phase p21 is a 1.3x crop no? I guess with the 645afd system 1.3x isnt so bad since wide angle lenses are reasonable. If you were a V owner with a CFV back it gets pricey real fast trying to make up for the 1.5x crop. I still believe that the larger the sensor that happier I will be since I prefer the look the longer lenses gives.
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: clawery on September 10, 2007, 12:48:50 pm
Quote
Well its a 1.1x crop. Phase refers to that as full frame. The phase p21 is a 1.3x crop no? I guess with the 645afd system 1.3x isnt so bad since wide angle lenses are reasonable. If you were a V owner with a CFV back it gets pricey real fast trying to make up for the 1.5x crop. I still believe that the larger the sensor that happier I will be since I prefer the look the longer lenses gives.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138076\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I will be posting some tests of a Phase One P25+ and a ZD in the next day or so.  I will be showing some long exposures and high ISOs.

Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
Capture Integration
www.caputureintegration.com
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: espressogeek on September 10, 2007, 05:44:31 pm
Quote
I will be posting some tests of a Phase One P25+ and a ZD in the next day or so.  I will be showing some long exposures and high ISOs.

Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
Capture Integration
www.caputureintegration.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138443\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Chris, that would be interesting.  I would be interested in just seeing some nice studio snaps from the both of them. Long exposure and high iso are interesting but it is clear that phase has the upper hand in the long exposure category. I don't think this is something that mamiya ever marketed this back towards no?
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: clawery on September 11, 2007, 09:02:16 am
Quote
Chris, that would be interesting.  I would be interested in just seeing some nice studio snaps from the both of them. Long exposure and high iso are interesting but it is clear that phase has the upper hand in the long exposure category. I don't think this is something that mamiya ever marketed this back towards no?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138512\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I was working late last night, so we were not able to do the high ISO test.  I hope to be able to post them today/ tonight.

Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
Capture Integration
www.captureintegration.com
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: clawery on September 11, 2007, 09:37:29 am
Quote
I was working late last night, so we were not able to do the high ISO test.  I hope to be able to post them today/ tonight.

Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
Capture Integration
www.captureintegration.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138616\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Sorry, but the attachment didn't upload. This test was shot with a Mamiya 645 AFD w/ 80mm lens,
mirror up and a cable release in tungsten lighting.  No software sharpening, noise reduction, color noise reduction was applied.  The ZD files were processed in CS3 ACR and the Phase One files were processed in Capture One.
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: SeanPuckett on September 11, 2007, 03:10:28 pm
Holy cats.  Thanks, Chris -- that's the most useful bit of information about the ZD that I've ever seen.
Now it is immediately obvious what the extra cost of the Phase backs gets you.

I know the ZD is capable of great shots, but you're showing where it falls down in extremis.  
Thanks so much for the time you spent making that happen.
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: stefan marquardt on September 12, 2007, 03:28:00 am
no suprises here for me. I (would) never use my ZD on anything longer than 4-6 seconds (10 sec. max). using the right software helps. especialy with the "salt-grain" (looks like salt grains sprinkled onto the pic) the hot-pixel slider of Raw developer helps o lot.

my advice for anybody interessted in the zd: if you dont have enough light, dont use the ZD.  iso 50-100 and exposure times shorter than 5 seconds will get you nice files. if you are forced to use less light, one better sticks with the 5D (or even better the old 1ds, or phase..).

stefan
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: Henry Goh on September 12, 2007, 04:09:00 am
Quote
no suprises here for me. I (would) never use my ZD on anything longer than 4-6 seconds (10 sec. max). using the right software helps. especialy with the "salt-grain" (looks like salt grains sprinkled onto the pic) the hot-pixel slider of Raw developer helps o lot.

my advice for anybody interessted in the zd: if you dont have enough light, dont use the ZD.  iso 50-100 and exposure times shorter than 5 seconds will get you nice files. if you are forced to use less light, one better sticks with the 5D (or even better the old 1ds, or phase..).

stefan
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138807\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I think finally I have found an honest opinion on the ZD.  Thank you.
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: clawery on September 12, 2007, 04:56:52 am
Quote
Holy cats.  Thanks, Chris -- that's the most useful bit of information about the ZD that I've ever seen.
Now it is immediately obvious what the extra cost of the Phase backs gets you.

I know the ZD is capable of great shots, but you're showing where it falls down in extremis. 
Thanks so much for the time you spent making that happen.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138702\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Sean,

You are welcome.  I've got to thank my coworker, Doug Peterson, for testing.  He spent several hours to pull this together.

Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
Capture Integration
www.captureintegration.com
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: mcfoto on September 12, 2007, 06:01:10 am
Quote
Sorry, but the attachment didn't upload. This test was shot with a Mamiya 645 AFD w/ 80mm lens,
mirror up and a cable release in tungsten lighting.  No software sharpening, noise reduction, color noise reduction was applied.  The ZD files were processed in CS3 ACR and the Phase One files were processed in Capture One.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138622\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi
I have known that the Phase back is one of the best if not the best back for long exposure. I have also known that the ZD has been improved to about 60 seconds max, maybe not in this case. However @ $7000.00 USD for the ZD I still feel it is a very good price. I shot with the ZD camera the other day on a mono pod at about 2 sec in the city @ iso 100 with no problems.
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: Anders_HK on September 12, 2007, 08:10:52 am
Quote
Sorry, but the attachment didn't upload. This test was shot with a Mamiya 645 AFD w/ 80mm lens,
mirror up and a cable release in tungsten lighting.  No software sharpening, noise reduction, color noise reduction was applied.  The ZD files were processed in CS3 ACR and the Phase One files were processed in Capture One.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138622\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Chris,

Much thanks for taking time to make the samples to the Phase. Now... since this thread is on the ZD, what if we turn it around and follow Stefan Marquardt's advise above on the ZD:

"my advice for anybody interessted in the zd: if you dont have enough light, dont use the ZD. iso 50-100 and exposure times shorter than 5 seconds will get you nice files"

In that condition, what is the advantage of the Phase 25, 25+, P35+? Any chance you can post some samples and prices?

Regards
Anders
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: Frank Doorhof on September 12, 2007, 08:52:50 am
Just got a mail from Mamiya NL.
The problem was found in the CCD, so the purple artifacts should be gone from now on.

Can't test this myself anymore but I trust that it's the truth of course.
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: stefan marquardt on September 12, 2007, 09:21:07 am
Quote
I have also known that the ZD has been improved to about 60 seconds max,
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138837\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

hi denis, what do you mean with "has been improved"?
has there been a software update for the ZD?

thanks stefan
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: doncody on September 12, 2007, 09:27:45 am
Quote
Just got a mail from Mamiya NL.
The problem was found in the CCD, so the purple artifacts should be gone from now on.

Can't test this myself anymore but I trust that it's the truth of course.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138867\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Frank,

Thanks for the update.  When they said "from now on" I don't suppose they gave you a back number?

Best,
Don
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: mcfoto on September 12, 2007, 09:41:41 am
Quote
hi denis, what do you mean with "has been improved"?
has there been a software update for the ZD?

thanks stefan
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138871\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi
In comparison to my ZD camera there has been a firmware upgrade. My ZD is from March 2006. Longer exposure has been improved & it seems the iso is better than my camera.
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: stefan marquardt on September 12, 2007, 10:11:28 am
Quote
Hi
In comparison to my ZD camera there has been a firmware upgrade. My ZD is from March 2006. Longer exposure has been improved & it seems the iso is better than my camera.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138879\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I see. so there has been a firmware update to the zd-back, but not the zd-camera.
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: pprdigital on September 12, 2007, 10:59:49 am
Quote
no suprises here for me. I (would) never use my ZD on anything longer than 4-6 seconds (10 sec. max). using the right software helps. especialy with the "salt-grain" (looks like salt grains sprinkled onto the pic) the hot-pixel slider of Raw developer helps o lot.

my advice for anybody interessted in the zd: if you dont have enough light, dont use the ZD.  iso 50-100 and exposure times shorter than 5 seconds will get you nice files. if you are forced to use less light, one better sticks with the 5D (or even better the old 1ds, or phase..).

stefan
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138807\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'll tell you what the ZD reminds me of, and this may be an unfair comparison and also at the same time open up a whole 'nother can of worms, but it reminds me of the Kodak 14N.

The reason it does is that the 14N held great promise, ground-breaking technology at a great price. The first announced full frame 35mm sensor, 14MP (then the highest), etc.

But when rubber hit the road, the Kodak disappointed as many users as it pleased.

We sold very few and generally steered people clear of them. I'm not actively involved in selling 35mm, but when my clients would ask about it I told them "It's a sweet spot camera". Meaning if you're in the zone of what it can do well, you'll be happy. But it's a relatively constricted zone and if you stray outside it you'll be disappointed.

I see the ZD as a similar product. At least this version of it.

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: stefan marquardt on September 12, 2007, 11:25:13 am
Quote
I'll tell you what the ZD reminds me of, and this may be an unfair comparison and also at the same time open up a whole 'nother can of worms, but it reminds me of the Kodak 14N.

The reason it does is that the 14N held great promise, ground-breaking technology at a great price. The first announced full frame 35mm sensor, 14MP (then the highest), etc.

But when rubber hit the road, the Kodak disappointed as many users as it pleased.

We sold very few and generally steered people clear of them. I'm not actively involved in selling 35mm, but when my clients would ask about it I told them "It's a sweet spot camera". Meaning if you're in the zone of what it can do well, you'll be happy. But it's a relatively constricted zone and if you stray outside it you'll be disappointed.

I see the ZD as a similar product. At least this version of it.

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138899\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

well, basically its probably just like any of the 1-2 year old backs like the emotion 22 or any other leaf back that used this dalsa sensor. lots of users were/are still happy using them.  not having used a similar leaf... back I cant realy say, but from what i have read, they showed the same characteristica as the zd. its only the last - noisewise improved - sensors that make the zd look not as good.

but apart from that, i feel (for my typical use of the camera!),  the zd is a really good product that handles realy well, and i cant see many other faults (again: only for my type of usage!). considering its mamiyas first digital camera, i would say - they havent done too bad. And I remember the problems other photographers had with their backs of different makes too. not many were trouble free from the start!.

I never had an error message poping up, never had software problems, the mamiya software doesnt do a very good job with the files, but it lets you shoot into the mac nicely. and it doesnt produce colorshifts.

on very big plus of the zd (compared to canon): you can use the autofocus confirmation light with the manual lenses. absolutely usefull in many situations.

stefan
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: JDG on September 12, 2007, 04:28:45 pm
Quote
well, basically its probably just like any of the 1-2 year old backs like the emotion 22 or any other leaf back that used this dalsa sensor. lots of users were/are still happy using them.  not having used a similar leaf... back I cant realy say, but from what i have read, they showed the same characteristica as the zd. its only the last - noisewise improved - sensors that make the zd look not as good.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138903\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Yes it is the same sensor, and you do see some of the same characteristics... i.e. speed and sensitivity, however the important difference here is not the CCD used to capture, but the in-back processing chips that handle the data.  The Leaf Valeo/Aptus and eMotion22 used higher quality 16-bit AD converters, where as the ZD uses a 14bit converter that produces a 12-bit raw file.... 12 to 16 bit is a difference of over 30,000 colors!
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: mcfoto on September 12, 2007, 06:17:41 pm
Quote
I see. so there has been a firmware update to the zd-back, but not the zd-camera.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138888\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi
There is a firmware upgrade for the ZD camera. I will send my camera back to L&P here in Sydney so they can send it to Japan. The new ZD cameras have increased time exposure & improved iso. On the other subject I would not compare the ZD to the Kodax 14N. The 14N had problems on overcast days. Back to price for $7000.00 compared to $25,000.00 that is huge. For what I put the ZD camera through last week, its performance was brilliant!! And when it comes to long exposures what are the best backs as we all know Phase is one of the best.
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: mcfoto on September 12, 2007, 08:10:12 pm
Quote
Just got a mail from Mamiya NL.
The problem was found in the CCD, so the purple artifacts should be gone from now on.

Can't test this myself anymore but I trust that it's the truth of course.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138867\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi
Good news. When I talk to people in the industry about forms & this one comes up. They shy away, I talked to two senior Hasselblad staff from Germany & they are not fans of this form. I think this ZD thread is an example of running with something & in the end the CCD was faulty. I think it is a great form & the only one for MFD.
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: JDBFreeheel on September 12, 2007, 09:21:27 pm
Quote
Just got a mail from Mamiya NL.
The problem was found in the CCD, so the purple artifacts should be gone from now on.

Can't test this myself anymore but I trust that it's the truth of course.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138867\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi Frank,

Can you elaborate?  Was it one or a few faulty CCDs or were allCCDs used up to now faulty?  I'm curious if Mamiya (MAC here in the US) will contact us owners with updates?  I have yet to see the purple worms in my pictures but I shoot mostly well lit shots.  My shadows thus far do not show worms, but I'm worried that I'll find them later.  

Does anyone here on the forum have a MAC USA contact (real human being) to check to see what those of us with the ZD back can expect?

-Josh
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: pprdigital on September 12, 2007, 09:25:51 pm
Quote
Hi
There is a firmware upgrade for the ZD camera. I will send my camera back to L&P here in Sydney so they can send it to Japan. The new ZD cameras have increased time exposure & improved iso. On the other subject I would not compare the ZD to the Kodax 14N. The 14N had problems on overcast days. Back to price for $7000.00 compared to $25,000.00 that is huge. For what I put the ZD camera through last week, its performance was brilliant!! And when it comes to long exposures what are the best backs as we all know Phase is one of the best.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138994\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I didn't mean to imply that the ZD had similar problems that the 14N had, like overcast skies, etc. Only that they are similar in that in their sweet spot they work well and provide value. But the sweet spot is a smaller "spot" than their competitors.

Also, I would say that digital backs from 1 to 2 years ago (22MP) were superior to the ZD in nearly every way and still are.

Don't let me rain on anyone's parade, though. If you have a ZD and it's working for you, you've chosen well with regard to buying a product that fits your needs. I'm speaking very generally and specifically towards buyers who may think the ZD is more than it is.

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: eronald on September 13, 2007, 12:41:00 am
What I heard from Nikon users was that the 14N was yucky at release but after about a year or so firmware releases had improved it a lot, unfortunately by then the camera's rep was damaged beyond repair.


Quote
I didn't mean to imply that the ZD had similar problems that the 14N had, like overcast skies, etc. Only that they are similar in that in their sweet spot they work well and provide value. But the sweet spot is a smaller "spot" than their competitors.

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139039\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: stefan marquardt on September 13, 2007, 03:24:31 am
Quote
Yes it is the same sensor, and you do see some of the same characteristics... i.e. speed and sensitivity, however the important difference here is not the CCD used to capture, but the in-back processing chips that handle the data.  The Leaf Valeo/Aptus and eMotion22 used higher quality 16-bit AD converters, where as the ZD uses a 14bit converter that produces a 12-bit raw file.... 12 to 16 bit is a difference of over 30,000 colors!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138972\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


personaly I dont know. but listening to what rainer viertlböck said here again and again (and I rate his technical expertise highly) all backs use only 14 bits.

stefan
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: Frank Doorhof on September 13, 2007, 03:38:12 am
Well it should be a series of backs.
So I guess if you have the artifacts call up your dealer.

If it was ONE back I would not have posted this, before I posted it on the forum I talked to at least 4 people experiencing exactly the same problem.

I will always rule out if it's only my back for the simple reason, a forum is a very powerful thing, misuse it and can really hurt a brand, use it correctly and it can generate sales.

I have ALWAYS stated that my first back did not have the problem, however the new one did, as so did some other users so I posted it.
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: Henry Goh on September 13, 2007, 06:00:03 am
Quote
Well it should be a series of backs.
So I guess if you have the artifacts call up your dealer.

If it was ONE back I would not have posted this, before I posted it on the forum I talked to at least 4 people experiencing exactly the same problem.

I will always rule out if it's only my back for the simple reason, a forum is a very powerful thing, misuse it and can really hurt a brand, use it correctly and it can generate sales.

I have ALWAYS stated that my first back did not have the problem, however the new one did, as so did some other users so I posted it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139077\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks Frank.

I started this thread but I have kept silent for quite a few pages because it has veered off course so far that I thought no one really cared or know what they are talking about.

BTW really keen to see those footage on the DVDs. ;^))

Henry
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: Frank Doorhof on September 13, 2007, 04:59:57 pm

The DVDs are with the printers.
Officially it was scheduled for a November release but because I teach two workshops in LA on the 27-28th of October I cleared my schedule the last three weeks and worked almost full time on the DVD.

I'm very very happy with the outcome
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: clawery on September 13, 2007, 05:03:31 pm
On a previous post someone requested pricing on Phase One backs. Here is a list of the current backs.




Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
Capture Integration
www.captureintegration.com
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: SeanFS on September 13, 2007, 05:43:30 pm
Not quite true. It did improve considerably but had issues with some lenses .The SLRN/NX upgrade made it a very viable camera, more usable an a variety of situations. I bought the 14n as a poor man's pro back  - and it did the studio work very well indeed.
The cheap body they used didn't help much either, but util the announcement of the D3 it was the only FF Nikon option. I moved to Canon but the camera I had still takes very nice images comparable to the 1ds2 ( a friend bought it at a bargain price) . Nikon has probably been as anxious to get a FF product to the market but looks like it has taken time to really get it right and learned from the 14n fiasco.
 I Agree, the Mamiya back does seem to be following in the 14n footsteps , but I'm sure will get there. The samples I have seen from the SLR have mostly been ok so something must have gone weird with the back as the chip it uses has a pretty good reputation elsewhere.
Amazed at the long exposure qualities of the Phase one backs .


Quote
What I heard from Nikon users was that the 14N was yucky at release but after about a year or so firmware releases had improved it a lot, unfortunately by then the camera's rep was damaged beyond repair.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139058\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: Henry Goh on September 13, 2007, 06:27:12 pm
Quote
I Agree, the Mamiya back does seem to be following in the 14n footsteps , but I'm sure will get there. The samples I have seen from the SLR have mostly been ok so something must have gone weird with the back as the chip it uses has a pretty good reputation elsewhere.
Amazed at the long exposure qualities of the Phase one backs .
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139258\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Mamiya will eventually get it right but seeing their financial problems of recent years, if too few people buy their first back, the worry is they may end up abandoning MFDB business altogether.  That would be a huge loss since Pentax has already left the scene and there is no price pressure on the other brands of back.
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: Anders_HK on September 13, 2007, 08:49:40 pm
Quote
On a previous post someone requested pricing on Phase One backs. Here is a list of the current backs.
Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
Capture Integration
www.captureintegration.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139251\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Chris,

Much thanks for posting the prices. I checked Hong Kong prices also. It is interesting to note that as examples the P25+ and P45+ are sold for near same prices in Hong Kong compared to in USA. Normally camera gear is lower priced in HK than other places since HK does not have tax.

I paid just over 8000 USD for the ZD camera in Hong Kong. A P25+ back alone would be three times as much. As an advanced amateur I dont see how I can justify. For others perhaps it is possible...

Back to my other question; What is the advantage of Phase 25+ and Phase 45+ within the sweet spot that the ZD is very capable in? Referencing again Stefan Marquardt's advise above on the ZD:

"my advice for anybody interessted in the zd: if you dont have enough light, dont use the ZD. iso 50-100 and exposure times shorter than 5 seconds will get you nice files"

Is the quality improvement from the Phase backs much significant in comparison or only subtle? Can you post some samples? It seems use of ZD/Phase would be ISO 50-100 and less than 5 second exposure to maximize quality, or?

If we speak of price levels, then the ZD should be compared to the upcoming 1Ds Mk III and D3X, but... we do not know yet how much better they will be compared to 1Ds Mk II or D2X....


Regards
Anders
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: H1/A75 Guy on September 13, 2007, 08:53:22 pm
Quote
On a previous post someone requested pricing on Phase One backs. Here is a list of the current backs.
Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
Capture Integration
www.captureintegration.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139251\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Ouch, Chris!

Expensive backs! I didn't pay anything anywhere close to those prices.

David
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: clawery on September 13, 2007, 10:10:23 pm
Quote
Ouch, Chris!

Expensive backs! I didn't pay anything anywhere close to those prices.

David
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139294\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Those are list prices. Talk to your local dealer about getting an estimate for the back you are interested in.

We have tests on our web site showing several camera comparisons: www.captureintegration.com

Chris Lawery
Capture Integration
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: H1/A75 Guy on September 14, 2007, 12:18:11 am
Quote
Those are list prices. Talk to your local dealer about getting an estimate for the back you are interested in.

We have tests on our web site showing several camera comparisons: www.captureintegration.com

Chris Lawery
Capture Integration
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139306\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I understand, Chris. It is doubtful anyone is paying list for their (new) DBs. Hopefully not anyway. I paid $24,500US for my A75 two years ago and my dealer through in a 30GB Digital Magazine and 3 year warranty at no charge. I guess today a new A75 lists for $22,500. If it is any help to Leaf marketeers, I would pay $30k for a Leaf (44MP) A84s back to hang on my $8,500 LeafAFI. I'd just have to figure out how i could afford the Prism Finder.
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: Anders_HK on September 14, 2007, 09:21:38 am
Quote
Those are list prices. Talk to your local dealer about getting an estimate for the back you are interested in.

We have tests on our web site showing several camera comparisons: www.captureintegration.com

Chris Lawery
Capture Integration
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139306\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Chris,

I still do not see any samples to the ZD there. Since this thread was on the ZD I appreciate if you would post some examples of e.g. P25+ compared to the ZD at what is said to be the ZD's strengthat ISO 50-100 and less than 5 seconds exposure?

Are there minor difference or could they be said to perform same at such settings?

Regards
Anders
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: Doug Peterson on September 14, 2007, 02:35:03 pm
Anders,

I am Chris' coworker. We hope to post an comparison of the ZD and the P21+ and P30+ test during normal exposure times (also an ISO comparison) next week. I will try to arrange to include a P25+ but cannot be sure it will be available.

I expect that in the final image you will see the greatest difference in shadow clarity/detail and color fidelity, and also how well the image responds to adjustments after capture (e.g. dodging shadows). Another consideration altogether is the feeling of the camera and the experience of actually shooting it, something perhaps other users could comment on. My two cents is the ZD is less intuitive to work with.

Doug

Quote
Chris,

I still do not see any samples to the ZD there. Since this thread was on the ZD I appreciate if you would post some examples of e.g. P25+ compared to the ZD at what is said to be the ZD's strengthat ISO 50-100 and less than 5 seconds exposure?

Are there minor difference or could they be said to perform same at such settings?

Regards
Anders
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139378\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: Anders_HK on September 14, 2007, 06:22:07 pm
Quote
Anders,

I am Chris' coworker. We hope to post an comparison of the ZD and the P21+ and P30+ test during normal exposure times (also an ISO comparison) next week. I will try to arrange to include a P25+ but cannot be sure it will be available.

I expect that in the final image you will see the greatest difference in shadow clarity/detail and color fidelity, and also how well the image responds to adjustments after capture (e.g. dodging shadows). Another consideration altogether is the feeling of the camera and the experience of actually shooting it, something perhaps other users could comment on. My two cents is the ZD is less intuitive to work with.

Doug
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139457\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Doug,
Much thanks, it will be good to see some examples.
Regards
Anders
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: clawery on September 15, 2007, 09:59:13 am
Anders,

I had posted an ASA test with the ZD earlier in this thread.
I'll try to repost it for you.

Chris Lawery
Capture Integration
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: clawery on September 16, 2007, 02:50:33 am
This is the ZD test I had posted earlier.

Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
Capture Integration
www.captureintegration.com
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: Anders_HK on September 16, 2007, 10:52:18 am
Quote
Chris,

I still do not see any samples to the ZD there. Since this thread was on the ZD I appreciate if you would post some examples of e.g. P25+ compared to the ZD at what is said to be the ZD's strengthat ISO 50-100 and less than 5 seconds exposure?

Are there minor difference or could they be said to perform same at such settings?

Regards
Anders
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139378\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Chris,

Any chance you can post some samples of Phase to ZD per my above request? At least for my shooting that is what I predominantly use. I am sure others would be interested to see what difference it is to the ZD at low ISO;s and more normal shutter speeds.

Regards
Anders
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: Doug Peterson on September 18, 2007, 10:06:54 am
Anders,

I shot such a test yesterday. The results should be posted tomorrow.

Doug

Quote
Chris,

Any chance you can post some samples of Phase to ZD per my above request? At least for my shooting that is what I predominantly use. I am sure others would be interested to see what difference it is to the ZD at low ISO;s and more normal shutter speeds.

Regards
Anders
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Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: MarkWelsh on September 19, 2007, 04:04:22 am
Here's a question that's been bugging me for a while now . . . though some flaws have emerged since the ZD back came to market, Mamiya's achievement in delivering a 1.1x crop sensor at 22MP at that price point remains untarnished – how are they able to do this for $7000?

Or should the question be: if Mamiya's ZD costs $7000 and matches the performance of its nearest competitors (ie, Phase P25) in 80% of shooting situations, why are the Phase backs so much more expensive?

It's pointless to argue that a second-hand P21 is only a bit more, as if that leveled the playing field: the P21 is an entirely different animal, a smaller sensor, useless for wide angle work and outperformed for resolution in a studio environment – and it's a used item!

I want to know why there  remains such a huge discrepancy between the ZD and the Leaf 22 which appear to share the same chip. And I'd like to see prices fall in line, please.

Thank you.
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: thsinar on September 19, 2007, 04:14:02 am
Dear Mark,

that's a very good question. Unfortunately I don't have any answer to it and it's "bugging" me as it is you.

All I can say is that we won't be able to sell such a product at this price, believe me. And I don't think that labour cost and other costs as such different in Japan than they are in Switzerland. So what can it be?

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Here's a question that's been bugging me for a while now . . . though some flaws have emerged since the ZD back came to market, Mamiya's achievement in delivering a 1.1x crop sensor at 22MP at that price point remains untarnished – how are they able to do this for $7000?

Thank you.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140362\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: Anders_HK on September 19, 2007, 05:06:31 am
Quote
Dear Mark,

that's a very good question. Unfortunately I don't have any answer to it and it's "bugging" me as it is you.

All I can say is that we won't be able to sell such a product at this price, believe me. And I don't think that labour cost and other costs as such different in Japan than they are in Switzerland. So what can it be?

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140364\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Ehh.... it is more expensive to produce in Europe, is it not?? I am European but work in Asia. Can it be different work efficiency in Switzerland compared to Japan... long vacations and holidays...etc????

Can it also be that Phase, Leaf are overcharging?? Also that agents are overcharging??? Taxes in country where produced? But, bottom line is perhaps that Mamiya ZD, Canon 1Ds Mark III and Nikon;s rumored match makes necessary to compete in a tougher market and lower prices or stay way higher in quality???

I got my ZD camera from Sellen in Hong Kong who is Mamiya's agent there. It was well worth my travel from Korea. There is no tax in Hong Kong, thus very good price. I paid 8,300 USD (AFDII with ZD back would have been a little more). It is interesting to note that on Ebay Hong Kong based Pro Mamiya wants 9,600 USD. Overcharging??? Any other reason???

I guess Phase and Leaf charges so much because they can. Everyone wants to make money... And... will that last?

So.... what will Phase and Leaf do????????? Hmm....  

Regards
Anders
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: thsinar on September 19, 2007, 05:34:12 am
I doubt that it is less expensive to produce in JP, once you have been there and seen the cost of living. And I doubt Mamiya is assembling/producing in China or elsewhere

I can certainly not speak for Leaf and Phase 1, but for what I know, for Sinar products. It is a price which can be reached for second-hand/re-furbished backs.

So there must be another reason.

Thierry


Quote
Ehh.... it is more expensive to produce in Europe, is it not?? I am European but work in Asia. Can it be different work efficiency in Switzerland compared to Japan... long vacations and holidays...etc????

Can it also be that Phase, Leaf are overcharging?? Also that agents are overcharging??? Taxes in country where produced? But, bottom line is perhaps that Mamiya ZD, Canon 1Ds Mark III and Nikon;s rumored match makes necessary to compete in a tougher market and lower prices or stay way higher in quality???

I got my ZD camera from Sellen in Hong Kong who is Mamiya's agent there. It was well worth my travel from Korea. There is no tax in Hong Kong, thus very good price. I paid 8,300 USD (AFDII with ZD back would have been a little more). It is interesting to note that on Ebay Hong Kong based Pro Mamiya wants 9,600 USD. Overcharging??? Any other reason???

I guess Phase and Leaf charges so much because they can. Everyone wants to make money... And... will that last?

So.... what will Phase and Leaf do????????? Hmm....   

Regards
Anders
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Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: Morgan_Moore on September 19, 2007, 05:59:29 am
Quote
I doubt that it is less expensive to produce in JP, once you have been there and seen the cost of living. And I doubt Mamiya is assembling/producing in China or elsewhere

I can certainly not speak for Leaf and Phase 1, but for what I know, for Sinar products. It is a price which can be reached for second-hand/re-furbished backs.

So there must be another reason.

Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140369\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well you could start by using a cheaper firewire connection that would save about $1

My not be worth it though

S
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: Anders_HK on September 19, 2007, 10:27:39 am
This thread is way off track. Original title:

"Has every ZD/ZD back owner given up"


What is Sinar and Phase doing here trying marketing in forum to justify that three (3) or more times more expensive backs are worth it??? Are they? What do they provide extra to justify? Challenge: Please show us. How they compete with ZD???? How can I as amateur justify putting up THREE times more money when I already put up FIVE times for ZD to step up from D200?

Perhaps Phase, Sinar, Leaf are quality products, in all respect... but fact is that Mamiya and now Canon and soon Nikon DO/WILL produce CHEAPER at 22MP as competition. Not same true, but Canon and Nikon more flexible. Phase, Leaf, Sinar all limited in applications.

Now.. this threaed was of ZD. I still have mine. Others do also. For reason.

The ZD Camera that I have is a lovely concept that is UNEQUALED by Phase, Leaf and Sinar... as body and price. Will you match?

Do you have any NEW product at SIMILAR price at better quality?

Regards
Anders
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: thsinar on September 19, 2007, 10:52:19 am
I beg you pardon?

What allows you to "attack" me this way?

I have tried to answer a question about price differences between the Mamiya back and other "equivalent" 22 MPx backs. I have not even tried to justify "our" price with some dubious marketing arguments. And not even questionned the quality or whatsoever of Mamiya.

I am glad that you are a happy Mamiya user and don't even wish to put in question your choice. And I dont think that anybody here as tried to convince you or any other to put 3 times more money in another product, whatever this product is.

So what gives you the right to attack a person this way by accusing him of using marketing arguments or only here to justify a price?

Challenge? I guess there is nothing to show or prove, especially not in this tread, right?

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
This thread is way off track. Original title:

"Has every ZD/ZD back owner given up"
What is Sinar and Phase doing here trying marketing in forum to justify that three (3) or more times more expensive backs are worth it??? Are they? What do they provide extra to justify? Challenge: Please show us. How they compete with ZD???? How can I as amateur justify putting up THREE times more money when I already put up FIVE times for ZD to step up from D200?

Perhaps Phase, Sinar, Leaf are quality products, in all respect... but fact is that Mamiya and now Canon and soon Nikon DO/WILL produce CHEAPER at 22MP as competition. Not same true, but Canon and Nikon more flexible. Phase, Leaf, Sinar all limited in applications.

Now.. this threaed was of ZD. I still have mine. Others do also. For reason.

The ZD Camera that I have is a lovely concept that is UNEQUALED by Phase, Leaf and Sinar... as body and price. Will you match?

Do you have any NEW product at SIMILAR price at better quality?

Regards
Anders
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140410\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: Let Biogons be Biogons on September 19, 2007, 11:33:18 am
Quote
I beg you pardon?

What allows you to "attack" me this way?

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140422\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Let's take a deep breath.  

It does not seem to me that he was attacking you or anyone else with his post. All he was saying, perhaps a bit un-artfully, is that he has yet to see any information in this thread as to how Sinar, Leaf, Phase1, etc. compete with the ZD at 2-3 times the price.  How do they justify their prices given the affordability of the ZD -- in objective and factual terms rather than with marketing department spin.  Obviously he remains unconvinced by what you and others have posted so far.

Perhaps there is nothing more to add to the discussion beyond what has been already posted.  Look at the images produced by each,  pick the one you like, and if the one you like is produced by the back that cost 2-3 time more, then you buy that one.  There could be nomore going one here that that.  There is also the fact that the ZD is only available for the Mamiya camera, so if you are attached to your Contax, Hasselblad you have no option but to spend a  lot more money  (unless Mamiya gets wise and starts producing the ZD for Contax and Hassy bodies).  Further, I would say that upgrade pricing at the other back manufacturers makes it so that if you already have Leaf, Sinar, Phase it's not all that advantageous to switch.
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: thsinar on September 19, 2007, 11:54:40 am
Not feeling especially hurt by this, however not really the kind of tone showing respect.

That's what I am always telling (and writing here) to anybody: it makes no sense to come up with marketing arguments for a product or another. I have never ever compared Sinar with any other brand here or elsewhere or said that the product is better or used "sales arguments", except to give as precise and detailled information as possible, to make clarifications, and to counter false claims about Sinar products. That's my role here, nothing more, and my intention is to continue this way.

Make your own tests and comparisons is a must, when making the choive of a product of this price class.

That's all, and I wanted it to be said.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Obviously he remains unconvinced by what you and others have posted so far.

Perhaps there is nothing more to add to the discussion beyond what has been already posted.  Look at the images produced by each,  pick the one you like, and if the one you like is produced by the back that cost 2-3 time more, then you buy that one.  There could be nomore going one here that that.  There is also the fact that the ZD is only available for the Mamiya camera, so if you are attached to your Contax, Hasselblad you have no option but to spend a  lot more money  (unless Mamiya gets wise and starts producing the ZD for Contax and Hassy bodies).  Further, I would say that upgrade pricing at the other back manufacturers makes it so that if you already have Leaf, Sinar, Phase it's not all that advantageous to switch.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140435\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: mtomalty on September 19, 2007, 12:08:47 pm
Possibly,Mamiya is pricing their DB products as a 'lost leader' strategy.

I.E.,they decide to sell backs at,or a little below cost,with the expectation that
migration to their brand will spike significant sales gains in the camera and lens lineup.

Currently,no other manufacturer,apart from Hasselblad, has the product line in place in
the marketplace to make this a possibility.

MT
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: henryhitch on September 19, 2007, 01:53:31 pm
Quote
The ZD Camera that I have is a lovely concept that is UNEQUALED by Phase, Leaf and Sinar... as body and price. Will you match?

You make a great point. A Phase rep jumps into this thread and dumps a bunch of images comparing the Phase backs with the ZD at ridiculously long exposures but when asked how the Phase backs compare with the ZD at the exposures most of us use on a daily basis he's suddenly MIA.

The ZD shot at ISO 50-100 produces images that are easily in the ballpark with the 22 megapixel Phase and Leaf backs.

So why does a P25 or Aptus 22 cost $10-$12k more? It has little to do with where the backs are made and more to do with manufacturer and dealer markup.
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: espressogeek on September 19, 2007, 02:27:55 pm
I have been cross shopping the ZD against a demo P21. There are some advantages to the p21 but I don't know if they justify the price.

Mamiya ZD,
larger sensor, more resolution without craming photosites, price, will upgrade your 645af to "d" status for free

Phase P21,
capture one support, long exposures possible, wider color gaumet (16bit vs 12bit output )

I was also curious if the Mamiya ZD supported multiple exposures without long exposures. Could one "add up" exposures to avoid the noise and retain shadow details in ambient light? Can the P21 or is it even necessary with the long exposure capability.


I am desperately interested to see if the new ZD's have the purple worm issue or not. I would like to see Mamiya be forthcoming with this information on their website and get back on the right foot rather than remain tight lipped about it.
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: eronald on September 19, 2007, 05:14:27 pm
Quote
I was also curious if the Mamiya ZD supported multiple exposures without long exposures. Could one "add up" exposures to avoid the noise and retain shadow details in ambient light? Can the P21 or is it even necessary with the long exposure capability.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140486\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

CS3 extended can stack images.

Edmund
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: Frank Doorhof on September 19, 2007, 05:24:26 pm
Every CS can stack images ??
I believe use lumosity as blending mode to stack for exposure.
Never done it but I know a lot of startrail shooters use it.
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: espressogeek on September 19, 2007, 06:01:46 pm
Quote
Every CS can stack images ??
I believe use lumosity as blending mode to stack for exposure.
Never done it but I know a lot of startrail shooters use it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140531\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I guess my dilima is if the shadows were blocked up you would have a big stack of blocked up shadows. I suppose the only way to shoot the way I want is to get the p21. I have a trip starting saturday that will allow me to determine if I actually need more than 10 seconds of exposure. We shall see. When I get back I'm buying either the ZD or P21. I hope to hear some good report about the ZD before then.
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: Henry Goh on September 19, 2007, 06:35:26 pm
Quote
Possibly,Mamiya is pricing their DB products as a 'lost leader' strategy.

I.E.,they decide to sell backs at,or a little below cost,with the expectation that
migration to their brand will spike significant sales gains in the camera and lens lineup.

Currently,no other manufacturer,apart from Hasselblad, has the product line in place in
the marketplace to make this a possibility.

MT
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140452\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I do not think Mamiya can afford to run campaigns around using ZD backs as loss leaders, at least not at this point in time when they almost their underwear and died.  Furthermore, their cameras are not that meaty in margins that they can do so.  They may not choose to make on the ZD project so as to enter this market hoping to get a sizeable volume but they won't be losing money on the deal either.

I suspect that Mamiya will be looking to launch a Version II after they have reworked the ZD and ZD back and at that point in time, they will up prices slightly but deliver a more desirable solution.  When? no later than October 2008 is my guess.  All speculation of course.
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: Anders_HK on September 20, 2007, 03:01:09 am
Quote
Let's take a deep breath. 

It does not seem to me that he was attacking you or anyone else with his post. All he was saying, perhaps a bit un-artfully, is that he has yet to see any information in this thread as to how Sinar, Leaf, Phase1, etc. compete with the ZD at 2-3 times the price.  How do they justify their prices given the affordability of the ZD -- in objective and factual terms rather than with marketing department spin.  Obviously he remains unconvinced by what you and others have posted so far.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140435\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes! Thanks.

And, Thierry my apologies if my post came out a bit aggressive. It was certainly not intended as an attack on you or any person.

The exact point is: why does Phase, Leaf, Sinar etc charge so much more than Mamiya, and until now there has been no valid reason to justify?

And... what exact does that extra offer?

So far in thread we have seen posts by representatives from both Phase and Sinar but nothing concrete to justify what benefits there are for paying much more for shooting what we most often do 50-100 ISO and less than 5 seconds exposure.

Also, has Sinar, Phase and Leaf considered making more cost effective options??? Perhaps even a DSLR handling camera to compete with Mamiya ZD camera, at similar or even lower price?

For low light and long exposures, it is perhaps better with a DSLR and not back...


Seems my post did get the conversation going  

Any posts on Phase, Sinar or Leaf, or should conclusion be that there is not much gain with those backs over Mamiya at normal shooting???

Regards
Anders
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: eronald on September 20, 2007, 03:34:54 am
Quote
I guess my dilima is if the shadows were blocked up you would have a big stack of blocked up shadows. I suppose the only way to shoot the way I want is to get the p21. I have a trip starting saturday that will allow me to determine if I actually need more than 10 seconds of exposure. We shall see. When I get back I'm buying either the ZD or P21. I hope to hear some good report about the ZD before then.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=140539\")

CS3 extended can stack,  meaning average, you can use that to reduce noise or remove people from shots, see link below:

[a href=\"http://photoshopnews.com/2007/03/27/image-stacks-in-photoshop-cs3-extended/]http://photoshopnews.com/2007/03/27/image-...p-cs3-extended/[/url]

Edmund
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: Anders_HK on September 20, 2007, 04:13:30 am
Quote
CS3 extended can stack,  meaning average, you can use that to reduce noise or remove people from shots, see link below:

http://photoshopnews.com/2007/03/27/image-...p-cs3-extended/ (http://photoshopnews.com/2007/03/27/image-stacks-in-photoshop-cs3-extended/)

Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140641\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Edmund,

Very interesting  

SilkyPix, are you reading?? Please...

Mamiya...can something be done in camera?  

Anders
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: Henry Goh on September 20, 2007, 04:33:14 am
Quote
Yes! Thanks.

And, Thierry my apologies if my post came out a bit aggressive. It was certainly not intended as an attack on you or any person.

The exact point is: why does Phase, Leaf, Sinar etc charge so much more than Mamiya, and until now there has been no valid reason to justify?

And... what exact does that extra offer?

So far in thread we have seen posts by representatives from both Phase and Sinar but nothing concrete to justify what benefits there are for paying much more for shooting what we most often do 50-100 ISO and less than 5 seconds exposure.

Also, has Sinar, Phase and Leaf considered making more cost effective options??? Perhaps even a DSLR handling camera to compete with Mamiya ZD camera, at similar or even lower price?

For low light and long exposures, it is perhaps better with a DSLR and not back...
Seems my post did get the conversation going   

Any posts on Phase, Sinar or Leaf, or should conclusion be that there is not much gain with those backs over Mamiya at normal shooting???

Regards
Anders
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140637\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

While I'm one who is wishing for Mamiya to be successful in the MFDB market so that these backs can be purchased more economically, I do not think one should question why competing products are pricing theirs so much higher.  Commercially, there are
so many examples where products are priced disproportionately for seemingly the same functional benefits.  For example, why is an European car priced much higher than a Japanese one?

I'm more troubled by the disproportionate pricing used by different dealers or distributors for the same brand and model of backs.  I have compared prices for Phase from US dealers and the Singapore dealer.  The prices quoted in Singapore is ridiculously higher than US list price.  It makes buying a Phase One back in Singapore nonsensical.  Phase is certainly aware of their dealers' pricing because they have their own reps around different regions.  What this means is they leave it to dealers to maximise their profits, even if they are selling above Phase list prices.  I would feel rather stupid to buy Phase from a Singapore dealer.

Some time ago, I started a thread that MFDB is not ready for everyone yet.  I still believe that is the case.  I only hope Mamiya can dent this small closed market and let consumers have better options.  They will get their back and camera working in due course.  I would be happy if they can just have their ZD perform properly up to ISO800.  Would I be asking too much?
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: samuel_js on September 20, 2007, 04:50:03 am
Quote
I guess my dilima is if the shadows were blocked up you would have a big stack of blocked up shadows. I suppose the only way to shoot the way I want is to get the p21. I have a trip starting saturday that will allow me to determine if I actually need more than 10 seconds of exposure. We shall see. When I get back I'm buying either the ZD or P21. I hope to hear some good report about the ZD before then.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140539\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I got the P21 instead of the ZD. More expensive, but I'll never look back. The step in quality is really big. (this is how I see it anyway). The files from the P21 are amazing, not mention to the speed...
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: MarkWelsh on September 20, 2007, 05:11:22 am
Quote
I do not think one should question why competing products are pricing theirs so much higher.  Commercially, there are so many examples where products are priced disproportionately for seemingly the same functional benefits.  For example, why is an European car priced much higher than a Japanese one?

Market forces work in the opposite direction, making it hard to cite examples to support this statement. The example you've chosen illustrates the common practice of overcharging European markets because they are soft targets: wealthy and not consumer-savvy, but that's not what we're talking about. This is the anomaly we should be questioning:

Global average prices in US$

Dalsa 22MP 1.1x sensor Mamiya ZD back: $7000
Dalsa 22MP 1.1x sensor Leaf Valeo 22: $21,000
Dalsa 22MP 1.1x sensor Leaf Aptus 22: $22,000
Phase 22MP 1.1x sensor P25: $19,000
Phase 22MP 1.1x sensor P25+: $23,000

The burning question remains: how is is that Mamiya has an almost identical product to Leaf and Phase on the market at exactly one third the price of its competitors? Presumably we will hear from Phase and Leaf that they're practically charitable institutions anyway, and already struggle to clear any meaningful profit at a mere $20K, yet Mamiya has a product 90% as good sat on the shelves at $7K.

If they are buying Dalsa reject chips off the back of a lorry, does that explain the varying IQ issues we're seeing? But if that were true, should be not expect to see a wider variety of failure types rather than these consistent long exposure/purple worm/centrefold gremlins?

If I had $22K to spend on a system, there is no way on earth I'd invest in Leaf or Phase at that price point. Not when I could have a ZD / AFD / Flexicam . . . PLUS a 1Ds III . . . and a conservatory.

Something must change: either the ZD will be withdrawn, or the cartel (?) will break and prices will fall. Market forces cannot be denied.

Quote
I would be happy if they can just have their ZD perform properly up to ISO800.  Would I be asking too much?

I'm afraid it is, with MF sensors at their present state of development.
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: Frank Doorhof on September 20, 2007, 08:03:07 am
Hi,
If I may answer that, I have shot extensivly with the ZD back and now the Aptus 22.

The difference according to me is very well there.
The Aptus works MUCH faster in the studio, there is no buffer, meaning you can shoot tethered untill you run out of discspace, for me that's not really a problem because I only once or twice with the ZD ran into buffer full.
The ZD was quicker in continues mode with 1.2 frames per second instead of 1.2 seconds per frame, but again both are adequate for me.

Where the BIG gap lies is image quality.
The Leaf files (can't talk for phase) are MUCH more defined in the shadow areas and highlights (probarbly the 16 bits issue).

When looking at the design of the units the leaf and phase have a MUCH better display, although this is more of a status symbol  because juding your photo on a digital display is a dissaster.
HOWEVER the composition and histogram is very good judgable on the leaf and was not usable on the ZD, the histogram clipped WAY before my raws would clip and the composition was off by about 10%.
But again, who judges their pictures on the display.

One advantage for the ZD was the removable IR filter which makes it possible to use the back for IR photography.
The disadvantage for this was/is dust.
I did not comment on this earlier because I wanted to make sure but the ZD is a real pain when it's dirty, it took me about one hour to clean the unit so there was only one spec of dust visable (when I got the back it was sprayed with dust), after that it kept clean for a LONG time, with the Leaf there is much more distance between the glass and the sensor meaning dust is not a big issue.
With the ZD because of the removable filter you have to first clean the sensor, than the back of the IR filter, connect the IR filter and clean the top, make a test shot and find out there is dust and repeat the procedure never knowing EXACTLY were the dust was/is, with the leaf there is only one surface.

Another advantage of the ZD was the option of a low pass filter which can be bought seperate.

Also the ZD back was VERY fast in boot and responded with the camera, meaning power up the camera and you are ready to shoot in 2-3 seconds with the leaf you are 7-8 seconds away from shooting.
HOWEVER it happend quite a few times the back did not shutdown when I shut down the camera meaning my battery was empty when I picked up the camera again the next day.

The leaf with tethered shooting does not need a battery, the ZD does.
The leaf has a rocksolid firewire connection which CANNOT be broken in normal use (or you have to use it as a lasso to catch running models maybe), the connection on the ZD is very brisk and not powered meaning you have to always use the battery.

Working with both will give you wonderful results.
I have shot several white papers with both the ZD and the leaf, and here it's really that you get what you pay for.
With the ZD there was some green infection on the bottom part of the sensor (about 10% too much green), the leaf is very very even, even with a picker the fall off is within the margin, if not you can use the gain files which I have never tried but it's good to know its there.

Longer exposures with noise control are on both systems not what it was designed for but the leaf does it better over 10 seconds below 6 I cannot see a difference to be honest (on ISO50).

The leaf goes down to ISO25 which is a wonderful thing for me.
The ZD goes to ISO400 with 1/3rd steps which can be usefull when you want to set things quick between 100 and 200.
On the other hand you can always underexpose 1/3rd step and correct it in PS.

ISO400 on the leaf is better than with the ZD.
Both are FOR ME usable in B&W but the grain structure (if we can call it that) on the Leaf is much more pleasing.
For color work ISO400 is for getting the shot but not for printing it large or customer use.

The ZD has AWB which the leaf does not have, but this is not necessary because the Leaf only shoots RAW, and the ZD also JPEG (which by the way in my opinion is not a standard I would set in a MFDB).

Crop factor is equal on both about 1.1 which is good enough in my book.

The price difference in the Netherlands is about EU 5000.00 between the Leaf and the ZD and in my opinion both give you a tremendous ammount of quality for the price, I have choosen the Leaf because I wanted 16 bits, I do alot of stuff that's on the edge of what my equiptment can take and I will always look for more so the Leaf was a natural choice.

When seeing the price difference of 15.000 US I would opt for the ZD without a doubt, that's just too much of a difference, unless you earn your money with photography.
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: Frank Doorhof on September 20, 2007, 08:15:12 am
I would like to add.

Price difference can come in MANY forms.
Look at high-end audio/video (here we go again ).

There are alot of scalers/players/projectors out there with the Gennum VXP chipset, I know that chipset very well and can tell you that for example the Crystalio II videoscaler which retails for arround $5500.00 does a MUCH better job than the SAME chipset which is build into a player which retails for $1500.00.

It's all about the implementation of the hard/software.

In other words you can all use the same Dalsa chipset but one manufactorer will choose a 16 bits D/A and one will choose a 14 bits and downsample it to 12 bits, only there is ALOT of the price difference.

Also the whole software suite behind the product costs money.
the ZD in the states is delivered with Lightroom which is of course a wonderful product, but the Capture software from leaf is designed by leaf meaning costs.

Also the price difference can be in (and now I will get my flameproof underwear) quality control.
I have this experience with projectors which we calibrate, there are projectors which are delivered to us on a pallet (15+) and were we find a more than 40% difference in performance from the SAME units.

There are also more expensive units were we find a drift of maximum 2-4%.
There are brands were we find 10% defective, and brands were we found one in two years.

Guess what, the brands that vary the most and have the most dropouts are WAY cheaper and on PAPER they are almost equal to the more expensive brands.

There will always be people that only look at specs.
They see 12 fstops dynamic range, RAW, Dalsa 22MP and that's where they stop reading

The market for MFDB is not large so there will be some pricing of course to the bigger margins, Mamiya is probarbly willing to penetrate this market and probarbly will do so with very slim margins hoping to sell ALOT.
Which I hope they do by the way because that is good for all of us.

I don't know how the service is for both products because I'm somewhat privileged by both brands but I think there will also be a difference.
You can't expect to buy very cheap and get the same support as with a very expensive brand.
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: canmiya on September 20, 2007, 08:25:36 am
Quote
Market forces work in the opposite direction, making it hard to cite examples to support this statement. The example you've chosen illustrates the common practice of overcharging European markets because they are soft targets: wealthy and not consumer-savvy, but that's not what we're talking about. This is the anomaly we should be questioning:

Global average prices in US$

Dalsa 22MP 1.1x sensor Mamiya ZD back: $7000
Dalsa 22MP 1.1x sensor Leaf Valeo 22: $21,000
Dalsa 22MP 1.1x sensor Leaf Aptus 22: $22,000
Phase 22MP 1.1x sensor P25: $19,000
Phase 22MP 1.1x sensor P25+: $23,000

The burning question remains: how is is that Mamiya has an almost identical product to Leaf and Phase on the market at exactly one third the price of its competitors? Presumably we will hear from Phase and Leaf that they're practically charitable institutions anyway, and already struggle to clear any meaningful profit at a mere $20K, yet Mamiya has a product 90% as good sat on the shelves at $7K.

If they are buying Dalsa reject chips off the back of a lorry, does that explain the varying IQ issues we're seeing? But if that were true, should be not expect to see a wider variety of failure types rather than these consistent long exposure/purple worm/centrefold gremlins?

If I had $22K to spend on a system, there is no way on earth I'd invest in Leaf or Phase at that price point. Not when I could have a ZD / AFD / Flexicam . . . PLUS a 1Ds III . . . and a conservatory.

Something must change: either the ZD will be withdrawn, or the cartel (?) will break and prices will fall. Market forces cannot be denied.
I'm afraid it is, with MF sensors at their present state of development.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140647\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think the chip is only part of the equation...other than that , the a/d converter, processing engines, iso/gain , cooling-active, passive vs. none are all different.  I am not suggesting that the prices are not high,  but I don't think you can base your
 analysis and conclusion solely on the chip.  Additionally, there is a lot to be said for the ability to upgrade Leaf, Phase and Sinar backs.  Part of what I found myself struggling with was the fact that with the Zd, there is no known upgrade path at this time and at the time it was released Mamiya America when asked about the warranty, said there was only a one year warranty available.  That has changed, but that is largely a function of the fact that several people maintained that the lack of an extendable warranty was problematic.  
I think the other thing you are not taking into consideration is that the Zd is effectively a closed system:  As such Mamiya camera body, lens, and accessories sales are  an integral part of the ecomonics in their pricing of the back.  We also have no idea if Mamiya will come out with an additional back or not.  And quite frankly, they might be better served to partner with a back maker, than to continue to go down this path on their own.
I will also add that the back makers have been offering incentives to get people to sign up. Often you have to go to their websites or talk to a dealer rather than just look at the list prices on the web.  
If you want to question anomalies, then perhaps you should expand your examination to the entire dslr market as well:  Nikon has  a 1.5 crop camera with a 12mp sensor selling for $4500 and will soon have a new camera  with the same mp count selling for $1800: the 5d has the same size sensor and mp count as the D3 and yet the price differential is substantial; and what about the difference in price between the 1ds series,the 5d and the 3d?  Is $3300 the floor for what ff dslr's should be selling for?
If  a person wants MFd, and does not wish to pay what Leaf, Sinar, H'blad, and Phase are charging, there are refurb backs which cost less, and there is the ZD. ( I nearly forgot about the 'blad cfv.)   If you believe in the ZD, by all means buy one and support Mamiya, and let the other back makers know you think this is a viable alternative to them.
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: Doug Peterson on September 20, 2007, 11:37:40 am
[removed]
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: SeanPuckett on September 20, 2007, 12:15:17 pm
Doug,  

Looks like plenty of work went into making that comparison -- thanks.  

What I was hoping for was a comparison at studio lit / hand-held compatible EV levels.  We've already had demonstrated that the ZD is poor at long exposures, for whatever reason -- A/D conversion, excess heat, who knows.  I believe the big question now is  -- at f/5.6 and 1/125, what does that extra $10K of a Phase/Leaf back buy?

For me, unless I'm shooting art, the camera is in my hand.  So EV11 and up is where the rubber hits the road in my shop.  Your chart shows EV6.

Breathlessly curious --


[edit: just speaking for myself]
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: MarkWelsh on September 20, 2007, 05:13:45 pm
Quote
I believe the big question now is  -- at f/5.6 and 1/125, what does that extra $10K of a Phase/Leaf back buy?
Not a lot. It does guarantee $10K off your bottom line, of course . . .
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: thsinar on September 20, 2007, 07:30:59 pm
Dear Anders,

Apologies accepted!  

My point is rather: why does Mamiya sell a 22 MPx digital back at such a price? And I have said it earlier here: I have no idea HOW they can do that, and I mean it. I understand the position of photographers asking "why is this brand costing so much more, when this other brand costs so much less", but try to turn the question the other way round.

I know the costs involved in developping and manufacturing a new product (and the ZD is a new product, not just an existing back which was improved), I know the costs of labour in most of the countries (among them in Switzerland and in Japan), I know about how many such digital backs it needs to sell to cover R&D costs alone, I know the margins a company needs to be viable in the long term (as well in Switzerland as in Japan). And this knowledge makes me simply wonder, nothing more.

Be also sure that we (Sinar) are always trying to give the most cost effective products. Times are over when it was possible to make business with high margins. There are certain limits to these margins, when it comes to make sure the company is viable in the LONG TERM. And that is our goal, to still be there for our customers in 10, in 20, and who knows, may be in 50 Years.

As for the extras offered by "more expensive" equivalent 22 MPx backs: I think the forum is full of posts from users of the different brands and who have enumarated why they like this brand rather than another one, why they have chosen this camera platform and not the other one, etc ...

I have myself made some shots with a ZD camera, but I don't think it is my prerogative here on this forum to speak about it and what I think about it. Also, it would be dishonest to pretend that I know this competitive product (like any other competitive brand): for this there are many users who can do it better and who are certainly more credible than myself. Anyway, I have made it my "policy" not and never to speak in bad terms about a competitive product, or to speak about it when I do not know it perfectly.

And I respect the choice of those having invested (because it is still an investement) in this ZD camera. Nothing wrong about this and I can believe that this camera does not deliver bad quality images.

But, and this seems the most important for me, don't buy on reports (here or elsewhere), don't buy because you have got the feeling of a good product by reading posts or articles about this product. MAKE YOUR OWN tests, under your own shooting conditions. If you come then to the conclusion tha the product does what you are expecting to get from it, then buy it and be happy about this choice.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Yes! Thanks.

And, Thierry my apologies if my post came out a bit aggressive. It was certainly not intended as an attack on you or any person.

The exact point is: why does Phase, Leaf, Sinar etc charge so much more than Mamiya, and until now there has been no valid reason to justify?

And... what exact does that extra offer?

So far in thread we have seen posts by representatives from both Phase and Sinar but nothing concrete to justify what benefits there are for paying much more for shooting what we most often do 50-100 ISO and less than 5 seconds exposure.

Also, has Sinar, Phase and Leaf considered making more cost effective options??? Perhaps even a DSLR handling camera to compete with Mamiya ZD camera, at similar or even lower price?

For low light and long exposures, it is perhaps better with a DSLR and not back...
Seems my post did get the conversation going   

Any posts on Phase, Sinar or Leaf, or should conclusion be that there is not much gain with those backs over Mamiya at normal shooting???

Regards
Anders
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140637\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: thsinar on September 20, 2007, 07:45:55 pm
I have posted long ago, that sensor prices are not longer the costing point in a digital back. That used to be at the begining of the digital age, when a sensor was about 40 or 50%, of the back price. This is not true anymore. Nowadays, the price of the sensor represents a small part in the total costs of a back. R&D costs, software costs, among others, are a major part of these costs today.

Another important point: the sensor alone does not guaranty for quality, that would be too "easy".

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Global average prices in US$

Dalsa 22MP 1.1x sensor Mamiya ZD back: $7000
Dalsa 22MP 1.1x sensor Leaf Valeo 22: $21,000
Dalsa 22MP 1.1x sensor Leaf Aptus 22: $22,000
Phase 22MP 1.1x sensor P25: $19,000
Phase 22MP 1.1x sensor P25+: $23,000

If they are buying Dalsa reject chips off the back of a lorry, does that explain the varying IQ issues we're seeing? But if that were true, should be not expect to see a wider variety of failure types rather than these consistent long exposure/purple worm/centrefold gremlins?

If I had $22K to spend on a system, there is no way on earth I'd invest in Leaf or Phase at that price point. Not when I could have a ZD / AFD / Flexicam . . . PLUS a 1Ds III . . . and a conservatory.

Something must change: either the ZD will be withdrawn, or the cartel (?) will break and prices will fall. Market forces cannot be denied.
I'm afraid it is, with MF sensors at their present state of development.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140647\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: JIMMY K on September 22, 2007, 08:48:53 am
Mamiya has a newly configured ZD back that has no magenta artifacts in the shadows or highlights,  is sharper and has greatly improved noise levels.  Stay tuned- Mamiya is working hard to improve the ZD back.
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: Henry Goh on September 22, 2007, 09:03:07 am
Quote
Mamiya has a newly configured ZD back that has no magenta artifacts in the shadows or highlights,  is sharper and has greatly improved noise levels.  Stay tuned- Mamiya is working hard to improve the ZD back.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=141205\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Being your first post, why not give us some background info so that people won't dismiss you as a troll...
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: eronald on September 22, 2007, 09:30:29 am
Thierry,

I would suggest you stop being in denial and notice that the Mamiya back is now *in stock* at retailers all over the world. The Mamiya dealer network is good, and the back encourages sales of lenses and bodies.


Edmund

Quote
My point is rather: why does Mamiya sell a 22 MPx digital back at such a price? And I have said it earlier here: I have no idea HOW they can do that, and I mean it. I understand the position of photographers asking "why is this brand costing so much more, when this other brand costs so much less", but try to turn the question the other way round.

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140832\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: thsinar on September 22, 2007, 09:48:06 am
Edmund,

in denial of what? Did I deny something? And certainly not that Mamiya is now selling this back or camera!

What the hell do you want to say?

My point is just that I don't understand why they can sell at this price, basta!

Thierry

Quote
Thierry,

I would suggest you stop being in denial and notice that the Mamiya back is now *in stock* at retailers all over the world. The Mamiya dealer network is good, and the back encourages sales of lenses and bodies.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=141209\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: David WM on September 22, 2007, 10:41:19 am
Quote
My point is just that I don't understand why they can sell at this price,
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=141210\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'd suggest that they cannot afford to sell above their price. Their product is not as refined as the existing MFDB players and they are obviously aware of that. Their future must depend on getting a foothold into this market and it may be that they are prepared to sell an unsustainable level in order to get market share. I suppose they could invest more time and money to improve the product in order to make a more competative product, but if there is no price advantage, why wouldn't the purchaser just stick with the proven performers, and by the time they had perfected it the 22 mp chip would be too old, so time was against them as well.
I suppose we'll all find out if and when they do a new model with a new chip. I expect that if their pricing depends on using chips that are 1 generation behind the others we won't see that until the current state of the art chips have been superceded.
David
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: SeanPuckett on September 22, 2007, 10:51:29 am
I think Mamiya are smart -- smart as a whip.  

The writing's been on the walls for DSLRs to have 20+ MPX sensors for awhile.  Isn't it interesting how the ZD is priced just a little bit more than the Canon offering?  Sure, it's Apples and IBMs -- until you look at your checking account.  Guys like me who stagger at $30K for a MFDB system are looking very, very hard at both the ZD and Canon/Nikon, and wondering just how much better my output would be if I did jump up to Phase/Leaf/Hassy/Etc.

At some point in the not too far future, these questions will be moot, because the recording technology will be indistinguishable from perfect replication, and the only thing we'll have to offer our clients is the Moment and the Look -- stuff you can't put in a box.

It's not so comfortable sitting on the fence, sure.
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: JIMMY K on September 22, 2007, 11:57:06 am
Quote
Being your first post, why not give us some background info so that people won't dismiss you as a troll...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=141206\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Troll?  What a nice welcome.  I do not think I will bother with this thread.
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: thsinar on September 22, 2007, 12:11:32 pm
don't feel offended, Jimmy. This is quite a normal thing, to ask for some kind of background and identity information. It is so easy to write about all and anything under the covert of anonymity.

Welcome here.

Thierry

Quote
Troll?  What a nice welcome.  I do not think I will bother with this thread.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=141231\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: Has every ZD / ZD back owner given up
Post by: jmboss on September 22, 2007, 03:14:01 pm
To Jimmy K,

Again welcome. Don't give up on this forum so quickly. Can you elaborate further about what you have in the way of information about pending improvements to the ZD line?

People are alway sceptical about blanket statements. Give us a little more detail.

Hang in there.

Thanks.

Joe Bossuyt