Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: Jon Abbott on August 22, 2007, 01:39:55 am
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I just talked to HP Designjet tech support today, and a major software update for the z3100ps version is going to be released in mid-September. He said it should bring the features up to and past the non-ps version. One improvement will be more tolerance when loading sheet paper (apparently we all get the reload message frequently). Lots more media "profiles" (think paper presets) and icc profiles, and many other feature enhancements. I should have asked some more specific questions, but was busy getting a head replaced under warranty. BTW, the HP rep thinks the z3100ps is their best printer; "the Cadillac of their printers".
This is the first time I have contacted HP tech support, and they were so helpful I was totally shocked. Even though I have four Epson large format printers, the support has been non-existent. In the two months that I have had the z3100ps there has been no clogging, and the only hardware problem has been a single head replacement (which is being done free and fast by HP); in the same period I have done 90 (yes, ninety) head cleaning cycles on 3 of my 4 Epsons (the fourth had an empty cartridge from auto cleaning). Goodbye Epson, hello HP, for my next printers.
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I don’t know about the Epson printers, I’ve so the IPF8000 at work and it is no match for my Z3100ps. Printing on the same paper (Tecco 380 Premium, Orafol 1917, Tecco GLU/II) the 1200dpi/1200dpi resolution (on best) on Canon is the equivalent with 600dpi/600dpi on Z, on fast printing option. The printing dots were obvious and it has banding. The owner sad that the banding problem could be corrected but the dots would remain at the same size. On Z at 1200dpi/1200dpi on Tecco GLU/II I cannot see the printing dots even with a magnifier glass! The banding problem didn’t appear even on the worst paper on fast, let alone on best… The Z series is more versatile on different type of paper due to the inks, that are better than of all printers created so far. The money HP spent in development it makes the difference, regardless our preferences on how the colors must look on a print. I’m totally satisfied with my printer and so are my customers.
The costs are also very reasonable, on a sq m on average, it needs 12-13 ml with GE and 8-9 ml without GE. On solvent printers for example (HP 9000s), the average is 19-20 ml.
About the clogging issue, the Z3100 have non on 2 months and is ready for printing at any time (the Epson and Canon printers have plenty of clogs). The pigmented inks have the tendency to dry out faster and are thicker then the dry inks (we have also a HP designjet 2500CP that has also a pigmented ink set and when a head has a clogging is very hard to clean). The Vivera inks are very ease to clean, I made an experiment and left a head on the desk for about a week, and after that I clean it very easy with the brush that comes with the head. The HP 2500 UV head (with pigmented ink) if I left it for a week it will be a nightmare to clean.
The HP representative said: “the z3100ps is their best printer; "the Cadillac of their printers"”. I, after more than 10 years of experience in printing business, I could say that the Z3100ps is the Ferrari of all printers!
I’m also happy that the software update will include more paper profiles and more tolerance in loading paper (especially on hand made paper and small sheets it needed that).
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I don’t know about the Epson printers, I’ve so the IPF8000 at work and it is no match for my Z3100ps. Printing on the same paper (Tecco 380 Premium, Orafol 1917, Tecco GLU/II) the 1200dpi/1200dpi resolution (on best) on Canon is the equivalent with 600dpi/600dpi on Z, on fast printing option. The printing dots were obvious and it has banding. The owner sad that the banding problem could be corrected but the dots would remain at the same size.
I am surprised to hear you say the iPF8000 has clogs. No reports of clogging for any of the iPF series has ever been received at the Wiki:
http://canonipf5000.wikispaces.com (http://canonipf5000.wikispaces.com)
I wonder if the source of the clogs could be a defective head.
We haven't had any reports of banding, either. Firmware 1.23 and later (for iPF5000, don't know about the 8000) has a finer dither than previous firmware versions, perhaps that could be the problem?
--John
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Good news. The z3100ps GP software update was postponed a couple of times, but is now almost ready for prime time. I just talked to an HP software engineer at the NYC Javits Center Photo Expo this last weekend. He said the new version is looking good and should be out very soon, IF problems are not found in the current beta (firmware TR12-TR12PS_06_00_00-7). The release has been postponed twice to "get it right". The printer on the floor was running the latest beta firmware and software (Mac). I also saw a windows version. I would expect a short delay after the release is approved, for HP to make media settings and icc profiles.
I was told PCL features and functions of the ps and non-ps versions will now be identical (except for ps and the optional APS upgrade features, obviously).
Yeah! The new great printer will now have improved professional software. HP promised us updates and they are delivering the goods!
BTW, if you like matte art papers, I recommend trying the HP Matte Litho-realistic paper. No wood pulp, not too white (less or no optical brighteners to fade and yellow), and inexpensive for the quality coating and weight. It is not HP Hannemuhle Smooth, but it's very nice and about one fifth the price.
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Good news. The z3100ps GP software update was postponed a couple of times, but is now almost ready for prime time. I just talked to an HP software engineer at the NYC Javits Center Photo Expo this last weekend. He said the new version is looking good and should be out very soon...
I recommend trying the HP Matte Litho-realistic paper. No wood pulp, not too white (less or no optical brighteners to fade and yellow), and inexpensive for the quality coating and weight.
I guess you spoke to a different representative than I did. The one I spoke to told me there waqs no scheduled firmware update. I agree with you on the HP Matte Litho-realistic paper - the images they had on this paper were great and I am ordering it this week.
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I agree with you on the HP Matte Litho-realistic paper - the images they had on this paper were great and I am ordering it this week.
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Friends,
I am on my 3rd roll of Litho-Matte and I like the paper VERY much, very deep blacks at a price less than 70 Euro for a 30m roll (24").
The deep/shadow red problem still exists though, still not acceptable.
Best,
Clem
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Friends,
I am on my 3rd roll of Litho-Matte and I like the paper VERY much, very deep blacks at a price less than 70 Euro for a 30m roll (24").
The deep/shadow red problem still exists though, still not acceptable.
Best,
Clem
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My first roll is on the way, should be delivered today. Its discouraging though to hear you speak of a problem with the reds. Did you profile this with the standard targets or APS TC9.18?
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My first roll is on the way, should be delivered today. Its discouraging though to hear you speak of a problem with the reds. Did you profile this with the standard targets or APS TC9.18?
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No, I have the non-PS version of the 3100 and profiled and calibrated with the built-in spectro.
Clem
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No, I have the non-PS version of the 3100 and profiled and calibrated with the built-in spectro.
Clem
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=148072\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I have a base Z3100 as well but purchased the APS separately. APS generally doesn't solve the reds issue but it has improved shadow detail in a number of the profiles I've built with TC9.18 target.
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I have a base Z3100 as well but purchased the APS separately. APS generally doesn't solve the reds issue but it has improved shadow detail in a number of the profiles I've built with TC9.18 target.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=148085\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
So what did you pay for the upgrade? Would you recommend it (concerning price/qualitiy improvement relation)?
Thanks,
Clem
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I was told PCL features and functions of the ps and non-ps versions will now be identical (except for ps and the optional APS upgrade features, obviously).
Yeah! The new great printer will now have improved professional software. HP promised us updates and they are delivering the goods!
BTW, if you like matte art papers, I recommend trying the HP Matte Litho-realistic paper. No wood pulp, not too white (less or no optical brighteners to fade and yellow), and inexpensive for the quality coating and weight. It is not HP Hannemuhle Smooth, but it's very nice and about one fifth the price.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147981\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi Jon,
I've been praying for this since late August when I was told by 2 separate tech support people that it would be coming "in September" or between "September and December."
I need it bad.
BTW, I love the Litho Realistic Paper also.
Are you having any roller marks issues with you Z3100ps GP? THis is one that is hanging over me like a knife, and along with the "reds" issues, I sure hope by "got it right" HP means that they've fixed some of these big ones.
Also, you say they were running this on the Mac at the show. Did you get a look at the HP Printer Utility. Have they improved that. I have a laundry list of changes I would implement if I were in charge. Come to think of it I would fold the APS Software into the HP Printer Utility completely. (I hope they do that). Oh well that's a whole different thread.
Thanks for the info, and so long for now, TOM
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So what did you pay for the upgrade? Would you recommend it (concerning price/qualitiy improvement relation)?
Thanks,
Clem
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When I bought my Z3100 I don't recall there being a PS version of the printer that included the APS.
I shopped around for the APS and got it from ProVantage at a savings over the HP price. I'll have to look back later tonight to see what I paid for it. When you get the package though your first thought is how can it be worth what I paid for it. A very unassuming package. Just the colorimeter and a disk.
For me it was worth it. I wanted to create better profiles and APS offered the ability to print TC9.18 (918 patch) targets for the RGB profiles. The ease of use and flexibility of APS was also a major deciding factor for me.
I don't think the 918 patch targets always creates profiles that are significantly better than the easy targets/profiles or those supplied by HP. On some papers though I'm very pleased with the improvements.
I haven't used it on a lot of papers though so someone like Neal Snape would be in a better position to say when it works best.
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In a week the new firmware will according to HP eng. be ready and on the servers within the utility as well, with new drivers as well. The new drivers are on the Windows side Vista approved, and the Utility corrected also.
So let's see if they have removed all QA doubts on the promised updates.
Copied from the newsletter:
Loading sheets with ragged edges
In Firmware 6, customers will have the option to load without doing a skew check. This has some benefits, it is a faster process and you can load media with ragged edges. However there are some drawbacks, such as there is no preview control possible and there is also a limited length of the sheet media that you can print on (for times the media width). The current option will be the default way of loading paper.
Improvement when adding a custom paper
The process of adding a custom papers has been improved in firmware 6. This new version allows to select the ink limiting; this is the amount of ink placed on the paper.
Export paper presets
With this new functionality you will be able to export and import previously created paper presets packages, so it will be easier to share among your colleagues or friends.
New drivers versions for both Mac and Windows.
This new drivers are Windows Vista certified. Also, it incorporates several fixes, especially during installation process.
We strongly recommend to upgrade both Firmware & drivers.
New Printer Utility for Windows
Together with the new driver, we are introducing a new version of the HP Printer Utility
With that introduction, in Windows OS, we move from HP Easy Printer Care to HP Printer Utility, so now HP Printer Utility will work for both Mac and Windows. Last version of HP Easy Printer Utility supporting HP Designjet printers is 2.1
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Thanks for the info, Neil. I sure hope these updates go smoothly.
Any idea of the impact on APS?
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Thanks for the info, Neal. I sure hope these updates go smoothly.
Any idea of the impact on APS?
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Good question.
Since it is X-Rite that co dev APS, the integration will be put to it's test with all these media addition upgrades.
APS calls in through the printer port the loaded paper, naming , etc that is stored on the hard disk of the printer. IF the new additions break the paths to the names, this will be a problem.
I didn't test this firmware update, nor do I have any info on those who have. Actually I don't even have the Z printer any longer for that matter....
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Hi Jon,
I've been praying for this since late August when I was told by 2 separate tech support people that it would be coming "in September" or between "September and December."
I need it bad.
BTW, I love the Litho Realistic Paper also.
Are you having any roller marks issues with you Z3100ps GP? THis is one that is hanging over me like a knife, and along with the "reds" issues, I sure hope by "got it right" HP means that they've fixed some of these big ones.
Also, you say they were running this on the Mac at the show. Did you get a look at the HP Printer Utility. Have they improved that. I have a laundry list of changes I would implement if I were in charge. Come to think of it I would fold the APS Software into the HP Printer Utility completely. (I hope they do that). Oh well that's a whole different thread.
Thanks for the info, and so long for now, TOM
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I haven't had any roller mark issues, except when calibrating the printer and the paper is pulled back in to be read by the spectro, and of course this is not really a problem. And I haven't had the "red" issue either. I believe it was fixed before I got my printer and according to HP was fixed by the ps GP version 4.0.0.6 firmware. I have looked carefully for this problem, and even expected it, but I have not experienced it yet. But maybe I'm not using the same papers as some of the posts that are having this issue. I have printed files with critical, saturated reds and blacks. I do have the APS, and Gretag Macbeth Profiler Pro with a iccolor 210 strip reader (they give similar profile creation results using the tC918 target with a D50 or 65 setting)- so I think the APS is an incrediable bargain compared to what the alternative Profiler Pro and hardware cost me. APS doesn't have some of the functions of Profiler Pro, but it has the essential ones most people would use, and I think it works very well. And my assistant (an art handler) can understand how to use it; he is lost in Profiler Pro and Measure Tool with the many choices.
I didn't really get a look at the new HP Printer Utility, but it is an area I have complained about with HP. They have heard about the issues, worked on it, and apparently it is improved. I haven't had a chance to install it yet, but they were kind enough to burn me a disk with the latest beta software and firmware. So far Hp has given me the best support I have ever had from a major photography manufacturer. It has been excellent (knock on wood). I'll post back after I install and test the new software, but by then HP will probably have it posted for download (unless they find problems). The one thing that may still be a problem (according to the technican) is APS working with the beta software. However, I have a hunch we are all going to be very happy with this update when it is finished.
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I didn't test this firmware update, nor do I have any info on those who have. Actually I don't even have the Z printer any longer for that matter....
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What happened to your Z3100 Neil, if I may ask?
Regards,
Bernard
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What happened to your Z3100 Neil, if I may ask?
Regards,
Bernard
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I made space in my little room, selling off all the space consuming gear, with only the drum scanner still taking up space while not being used. Strange to have breathing room in the end. In reality, I need no more than an 18" printer. The 3800 is very nice for the price, but I'd like to see it with vivid magenta. I haven't seen enough prints from the x100 series Canon to know if the 5100 Canon is the better choice. If I understand correctly the 4880 still hasn't addressed the PK and MK swap or am I missing something?
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So what did you pay for the upgrade? Would you recommend it (concerning price/qualitiy improvement relation)?
Thanks,
Clem
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Clem,
I finally got back to my invoice and the APS cost me $732.43. Not a huge savings but enough to pay for a 24" roll of HP Matte Litho-Realistic.
Speaking of the Litho-Realistic, my roll came yesterday and I bit the bullet and profiled it with APS 1.3.1 using a TC9.18 target. My initial impressions are that its significantly heavier (13 mil vs 10.3 mil) than Epson Enhanced Matte and that the reds are excellent. It seems to handle a lot of ink. Detail seems quite good. For those who hate OBAs it is noticeably less bright than Enhanced Matte.
I think I'm really going to like the Litho-Realistic paper a lot and I'll probably not order any more Epson Enhanced Matte to use on the Z3100.
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Does someone know why do they call it "Litho-Realistic paper" ? It looks like something very specific. A bit frightening for someone who doesn't speak a good english.
And not so easy to find at least here in France.
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Clem,
I finally got back to my invoice and the APS cost me $732.43. Not a huge savings but enough to pay for a 24" roll of HP Matte Litho-Realistic.
Speaking of the Litho-Realistic, my roll came yesterday and I bit the bullet and profiled it with APS 1.3.1 using a TC9.18 target. My initial impressions are that its significantly heavier (13 mil vs 10.3 mil) than Epson Enhanced Matte and that the reds are excellent. It seems to handle a lot of ink. Detail seems quite good. For those who hate OBAs it is noticeably less bright than Enhanced Matte.
I think I'm really going to like the Litho-Realistic paper a lot and I'll probably not order any more Epson Enhanced Matte to use on the Z3100.
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Thank you for this information. In Germany the price is 760 Euro excl. VAT.
I find it very interesting, that you do not have problems with the reds. With my red ink I am still on the 60ml ink cartridge, maybe I should change? I was one of the first in Germany to buy the Z3100 (Dez. 2006), maybe there has changed something. That possible?
What is the difference between the PS and the non-PS Version?
I read that with the next firmware upgrade Version 6 these PS and non-PS will become the same (PS)? Anybody to confirm this?
Thanks,
Clem
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Thank you for this information. In Germany the price is 760 Euro excl. VAT.
I find it very interesting, that you do not have problems with the reds. With my red ink I am still on the 60ml ink cartridge, maybe I should change? I was one of the first in Germany to buy the Z3100 (Dez. 2006), maybe there has changed something. That possible?
What is the difference between the PS and the non-PS Version?
I read that with the next firmware upgrade Version 6 these PS and non-PS will become the same (PS)? Anybody to confirm this?
Thanks,
Clem
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Neil Snape provided a good synopis on PS vs. non-PS in another thread.
Reds were initially disappointing on a wider range of media than today. On my Z3100 there were firmware changes that made a significant difference in the reds. Are you up to date with the firmware and drivers?
Today the reds may not be perfect in all circumstances but my only challenges have been on papers that may not have coatings optimized for the Vivera inks and when I don't select the right paper type for the 3rd party papers when profiling. There is some experimentation required to select the paper type that produces the best results on non-HP paper. Some papers may never perform well on the Z.
Others may have more critical color requirements in their prints than I do. Generally speaking I'm happy with the reds I get now. I'm learning to stay away from some papers to get the results I want.
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Neil Snape provided a good synopis on PS vs. non-PS in another thread.
Reds were initially disappointing on a wider range of media than today. On my Z3100 there were firmware changes that made a significant difference in the reds. Are you up to date with the firmware and drivers?
Today the reds may not be perfect in all circumstances but my only challenges have been on papers that may not have coatings optimized for the Vivera inks and when I don't select the right paper type for the 3rd party papers when profiling. There is some experimentation required to select the paper type that produces the best results on non-HP paper. Some papers may never perform well on the Z.
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I did not get the latest firmware update as it were only improvements stated by HP that were not important for me. I am on driver version 5.0.2 and firmware version 5.0.0.4 Nevertheless I am waiting for the new Version 6 and I will install it. Maybe they did improvements on the reds in the latest Version 5 but did not say?
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I did not get the latest firmware update as it were only improvements stated by HP that were not important for me. I am on driver version 5.0.2 and firmware version 5.0.0.4 Nevertheless I am waiting for the new Version 6 and I will install it. Maybe they did improvements on the reds in the latest Version 5 but did not say?
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Firmware 5.0.0.4 was the key for me so you're already there.
What problems are you seeing with reds? I may not be as critical as you in my printing. For my work, the reds are acceptable on the papers I've chosen. Even mattes. The exception is Epson Enhanced Matte which I think I can improve by chosing a different paper type. It may never equal the reds acheived on that paper with the Epson ink sets. Neil Snape has provided better comments on reds in another thread.
The next firmware may improve things by allowing us to lay down more or less ink without resorting to testing a lot of different paper types to get acceptable results. We'll find out more when the new firmware arrives.
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Firmware 5.0.0.4 was the key for me so you're already there.
What problems are you seeing with reds? I may not be as critical as you in my printing. For my work, the reds are acceptable on the papers I've chosen. Even mattes. The exception is Epson Enhanced Matte which I think I can improve by chosing a different paper type. It may never equal the reds acheived on that paper with the Epson ink sets. Neil Snape has provided better comments on reds in another thread.
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I attached 2 pictures with this post, I hope it works.
For the record: I am on MAC OSX and print from PSCS3.
One ist the original (sundried peppers) and the other is a shot of the print (due to open aperture not totally in focus!).
Dark reds in the print are muddy and not as contrasty as the file and in certain areas became more kind of green/yellow and the worst are highlights that turn into pink in an abrupt step.
See yourself. Although I want to state, that this does not occur on all pictures with red, only with certain red tones. I also have pictures where red is no problem.
Could also be a profile mistake, but I calibrated everything properly, I am professional photographer and know what I am doing (at least mostly ;-)
Other question: will the APS software work with an basic color squid 2 (which is in fact an Gretag EyeOne2)? Is it possible to get the APS software seperately?
Thanks,
Clem
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Wow, that's a pretty dramatic difference, Clem. I would be upset as well if I saw that kind of result. I don't doubt your abilities. Was this print on the Matte Litho-Realistic? What are you doing with regards to soft-proofing? I find I have to tweak all matte papers in either Photoshop or Qimage to get good results.
APS is available as a separate purchase. As best I can tell it works only with the spectro built into the Z. Its incredibly easy to use as a result.
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Wow, that's a pretty dramatic difference, Clem. I would be upset as well if I saw that kind of result. I don't doubt your abilities. Was this print on the Matte Litho-Realistic? What are you doing with regards to soft-proofing? I find I have to tweak all matte papers in either Photoshop or Qimage to get good results.
APS is available as a separate purchase. As best I can tell it works only with the spectro built into the Z. Its incredibly easy to use as a result.
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But the APS is a package and the I1D2 is included, isnt it? So I only would need the software, and could save the money for a second I1D2...
Please note: I did a shot of the print under low light, so please dont judge the blacks, only how the different reds correspond to each other on the print vs. on the file. Thanks.
It is on Litho-Matte. When I look at the preview the reds are okay, although the whole print seems to be a little too saturated but it wont come out oversaturated.
From which program do you print? On which platform?
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But the APS is a package and the I1D2 is included, isnt it? So I only would need the software, and could save the money for a second I1D2...
It is on Litho-Matte. When I look at the preview the reds are okay, although the whole print seems to be a little too saturated but it wont come out oversaturated.
From which program do you print? On which platform?
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There's no way to acquire APS without getting another I1D2. I wish I could. I feel like a hockey player with all the pucks I've managed to acquire over the last few years.
Almost all of my printing is through Qimage on Windows. I do occasionally print from Photoshop CS3.
When time permits I'll experiment further with the Litho-Matte and provide a before/after image like you have. I've not experienced a dramatic difference in the reds yet like you show. Then again, I've got one whole day of experience with the paper so far.
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Here's a general outlook from soft proofing relative with BPC, and white and black of paper on as the jpg header shows, Epson 4800 PR308, HP FA smooth Easy, HP FA smooth, APS, Canon 5000 PR308.
I also did a check for monitor out of gamut and you certainly have some in the peppers in the regions that are going greenish on the print.
I have to say there is a pinkish cast in the white wall but I don't know exactly what you are seeing as pink without having the print in front of me.
For me the clear winner is the Canon as expected as it is highly saturated reds in the above L40, next to that I prefer the Z with the APS.
What I cannot fathom is the need for these rich reds that lend themselves to a photo paper over matte. This very image on Satin would be a perfect fit. To each his own....
Hmm forgot the image
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Good point, Neil. When I have an image where reds are critical its generally one I'm going to print on a satin or gloss with a great gamut.
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Here's a general outlook from soft proofing relative with BPC, and white and black of paper on as the jpg header shows, Epson 4800 PR308, HP FA smooth Easy, HP FA smooth, APS, Canon 5000 PR308.
I also did a check for monitor out of gamut and you certainly have some in the peppers in the regions that are going greenish on the print.
I have to say there is a pinkish cast in the white wall but I don't know exactly what you are seeing as pink without having the print in front of me.
For me the clear winner is the Canon as expected as it is highly saturated reds in the above L40, next to that I prefer the Z with the APS.
What I cannot fathom is the need for these rich reds that lend themselves to a photo paper over matte. This very image on Satin would be a perfect fit. To each his own....
Hmm forgot the image
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Neil, thanks for your help, we really appreciate that!
Looking on your proofs the pink highlights on the peppers are also very visible, though the contrast is not as strong as in my printshot, but that may partly come from the automatic of the camera when shooting the print.
So this is an out of gamut problem and not a printer problem with my personal Z3100?
BTW, the pinkish cast in the wall is not the thing I see as a problem.
Also it is not the question, if a satin paper would be a better choice for exactly this picture, as I like to have a working printer under all circumstances. That the satin print quality is better than the matte is wellknown.
Would I get improved print quality with a RIP or APS in THIS image on matte paper?
Best,
Clem
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Well unfortunately get used to the fact that the Z's weak point is saturated reds on matte media. It is lessened by using more coated matte paper as Epson enhanced matte or HP Smooth FA.
I'm still divided on which reds are better APS or Easy. In this case APS is by far better. Yet in the subjective sense as I think these peppers should be a more magenta blue red than Epson's yellow reds. The new Vivid Magenta will surely pull the reds in favour of Canon and HP with APS . I wouldn't do without APS as a photographer with a Z 3100.
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I wouldn't do without APS as a photographer with a Z 3100.
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Thanks, Neil!
This is a very clear statement.
@all: have a nice evening!
Kind regards,
Clem
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For the record: I am on MAC OSX and print from PSCS3.
One ist the original (sundried peppers) and the other is a shot of the print (due to open aperture not totally in focus!).
Dark reds in the print are muddy and not as contrasty as the file and in certain areas became more kind of green/yellow and the worst are highlights that turn into pink in an abrupt step.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=148595\")
Also for the record: something that I had NEVER heard of until surfing yesterday. There is a bug apparently in OS X when printing from CS3 that mis-applies the wrong profile if the printer is not set to be the "default" printer in OS X print center.
See the following Pixelgenius page (look down towards the bottom) for an explanation/ what to do about this.
Apparently this is only on OS X 10.4 and CS3 on the Mac.
[a href=\"http://pixelgenius.com/epson/osx.html]http://pixelgenius.com/epson/osx.html[/url]
DDH
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Also for the record: something that I had NEVER heard of until surfing yesterday. There is a bug apparently in OS X when printing from CS3 that mis-applies the wrong profile if the printer is not set to be the "default" printer in OS X print center.
See the following Pixelgenius page (look down towards the bottom) for an explanation/ what to do about this.
Apparently this is only on OS X 10.4 and CS3 on the Mac.
http://pixelgenius.com/epson/osx.html (http://pixelgenius.com/epson/osx.html)
DDH
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=148631\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I just tried switching the default printers and this doesn't necessarily apply to all printers or drivers then. On the HP I can find no differences, although you'll have to test this yourself.
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snip>> I have a hunch we are all going to be very happy with this update when it is finished.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=148537\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi Jon,
Glad to hear HP is getting feedback on the HP Printer Utility. Can't wait for those improvements!
When it comes to the firmware....I keep checking every day.
Been looking forward to it since mid August.
So long for now, TOM
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I thought it might be worthwhile to show what reds really do with matte and satin paper on the Z and how they look with softproofing and gamut warning. Profiles for both Litho-Realistic and ID Satin were created in APS with TC9.18 targets.
Softproofing:
Rendering intent: Perceptual (would have been better to use relative)
Black point compensation
Simulate Paper Color
The image as worked in CS3
(http://www.shutterfreaks.com/albums/album156/red_leaves_1.jpg)
The image softproofed with Litho-Realistic profile - (no corrections)
(http://www.shutterfreaks.com/albums/album156/red_leaves_soft_proof_litho_realistic_1.jpg)
The image softproofed with Litho-Realistic profile w/gamut warning (no corrections)
(http://www.shutterfreaks.com/albums/album156/red_leaves_gamut_warning_1.jpg)
The image softproofed with ID Satin profile (no corrections - gamut warning showed nothing)
(http://www.shutterfreaks.com/albums/album156/red_leaves_soft_proof_ID_satin_1.jpg)
These reds are an extreme example for sure but should give some idea why paper choice is critical. Neil has been preaching this for a long time.
I wish Jeff Schewe had demo'd softproofing with a matte paper in Camera to Print instead of Epson Premium luster. His techniques are still work great but this kind of shows the points in the extreme.
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Yes the paper choice is critical for problematic reds for sure.
Did I say that for HP's media the highest gamut media is the High Gloss Contract Proofing? It has a higher gloss than the ID Gloss, no HP logo on it, is thinner and less robust, but the white of the paper is better than ID, and the gamut extraordinary. I sent off a copy of the profile to Joseph Holmes and he returned the gamut volume as being higher by far than Epson and still a fair edge higher than Canon both on their respective premium papers. So if you want a paper for colour that has no rival, that should have you getting out the sheets in the sample pack. I have an APS profile of HGProof if you need it.
Off topic . Now that I'm obliged to get back to printing on the 9180, I immediately see the strength in the B&W on the Z. The Z is so neutral, yet brilliant, full of life. The 9180 just doesn't cut it with too much bronzing, coloration. I did cook up a Photoshop curve for printing B&W images via Photoshop handles color, with custom profiles that come closer. Write me if you're interested.
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I thought it might be worthwhile to show what reds really do with matte and satin paper on the Z and how they look with softproofing and gamut warning. Profiles for both Litho-Realistic and ID Satin were created in APS with TC9.18 targets.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=148916\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Wow, thats interesting, Ron!
How would the Epson Matte softproof with out of garmut warning look like with the same picture?
Anybody who could do a comparison?
Clem
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Wow, thats interesting, Ron!
How would the Epson Matte softproof with out of garmut warning look like with the same picture?
Anybody who could do a comparison?
Clem
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=148987\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I can do that, Clem. Unfortunately the server I use for the images is currently down. As soon as its restored to health I'll post them. The only caveat is that I know the profile I created for Epson Enhanced Matte isn't as good as it could be.
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Yes the paper choice is critical for problematic reds for sure.
Did I say that for HP's media the highest gamut media is the High Gloss Contract Proofing? It has a higher gloss than the ID Gloss, no HP logo on it, is thinner and less robust, but the white of the paper is better than ID, and the gamut extraordinary. I sent off a copy of the profile to Joseph Holmes and he returned the gamut volume as being higher by far than Epson and still a fair edge higher than Canon both on their respective premium papers. So if you want a paper for colour that has no rival, that should have you getting out the sheets in the sample pack. I have an APS profile of HGProof if you need it.
Off topic . Now that I'm obliged to get back to printing on the 9180, I immediately see the strength in the B&W on the Z. The Z is so neutral, yet brilliant, full of life. The 9180 just doesn't cut it with too much bronzing, coloration. I did cook up a Photoshop curve for printing B&W images via Photoshop handles color, with custom profiles that come closer. Write me if you're interested.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=148960\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks, Neil. I've been looking at the Contract Proofing paper as a possible choice for inexpensive posters to sell. Based on your recommendation I guess I'll have to order a roll. Did you have a chance to use the Satin Contract Proofing paper? I wonder how that compares.
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Thanks, Neil. I've been looking at the Contract Proofing paper as a possible choice for inexpensive posters to sell. Based on your recommendation I guess I'll have to order a roll. Did you have a chance to use the Satin Contract Proofing paper? I wonder how that compares.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=148994\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
They shipped a roll that fell into the cracks somewhere. The stupid delivery service HP France have drivers that ask for a copy your security documents similar to a green card, each and every delivery. After a long drive home, and quite tired the driver insisted for the same copy I reluctantly already made several times before. I tried to comply, but none of the printers wanted to work that day, after being offline a few weeks. He said then he couldn't leave it, thus I told him to talk a walk and never come back. Hence my statement on my review avoid HP's professional delivery service, buy from your local dealer and hopefully you'll not have this outrageous and borderline illegal requirement of supplying secure documents to HP's appointed delivery service. Shame on you HP France, really you deserve to be slapped for this discredit to HP.
So no I didn't get to try it. Knowing the media people though in HP I'm sure, 100% sure it's a very good media too. If I were doing much prepress , I'd hop on this paper fast. I'm not sure that all users are aware , but most all of the new papers are highly optimised for the Vivera pigments. Not only in a small amount but in a way that goes beyond what is required. They even go to the extent of asking many suppliers to do their best to meet the spec and supply test samples before being chosen as the OEM. Any of the defects found in the first shipping Pro Satin for example are the total responsibility of the OEM supplier. I sincerely hope HP continues to strive for better media as all you do too.
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Wow, thats interesting, Ron!
How would the Epson Matte softproof with out of garmut warning look like with the same picture?
Anybody who could do a comparison?
Clem
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=148987\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Clem,
Same softproofing conditions as before with Epson Enhanced Matte. Again, once the new firmware and drivers are better understood I'll be creating a new profile for this paper and will likely be better.
(http://www.shutterfreaks.com/albums/album156/red_leaves_soft_proof_Epson_Enhanced_Matte_1.jpg)
(http://www.shutterfreaks.com/albums/album156/red_leaves_soft_proof_EEM_gamut_warning_1.jpg)
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Ron,
sorry, but no pictures visible...
Clem
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Ron,
sorry, but no pictures visible...
Clem
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149062\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Server looks like its down again. When the server comes back up hopefully the images will be visible. Sorry for the inconvenience.
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Ron,
sorry, but no pictures visible...
Clem
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149062\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Server's back up and the images are again visible.
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Server's back up and the images are again visible.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149230\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Ron, thank you for the time you spent!
Unfortunately this is not what I thought of: I would have been interested in the Epson version of the garmut warning from an Epson printer on Epson (enhanced) matte paper.
I don´t want to compare the papers on z3100 but the garmut of the printers (on their own papers). Simply see, how much they differ in this real world example. I expect the Epson printers to have a larger garmut of course, after all the hassle with the reds on the z, but how much larger?
Clem
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Clem, OK, now I understand. I don't have any custom profiles for Epson Enhanced Matte on Epson printers. I do have the EEM profile for my Epson 2200 but that doesn't use the latest K3 inks.
I could show the same softproofing/gamut warning with the stock Epson K3 profiles for EEM.
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Clem, OK, now I understand. I don't have any custom profiles for Epson Enhanced Matte on Epson printers. I do have the EEM profile for my Epson 2200 but that doesn't use the latest K3 inks.
I could show the same softproofing/gamut warning with the stock Epson K3 profiles for EEM.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149307\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks Ron!
I think its better to compare the LFP against each other, isnt it?
Maybe anyone with an Epson K3 LFP could jump in?
Would be an interesting comparison...
Thanks,
Clem
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Thanks Ron!
I think its better to compare the LFP against each other, isnt it?
Maybe anyone with an Epson K3 LFP could jump in?
Would be an interesting comparison...
Thanks,
Clem
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149424\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
OK, yes, but that takes a LOT more than comparing softproofing in Photoshop. That will take people to use a spectro on the prints themselves and compare D-Max and all that.
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Ron, thank you for the time you spent!
Unfortunately this is not what I thought of: I would have been interested in the Epson version of the garmut warning from an Epson printer on Epson (enhanced) matte paper.
I don´t want to compare the papers on z3100 but the garmut of the printers (on their own papers). Simply see, how much they differ in this real world example. I expect the Epson printers to have a larger garmut of course, after all the hassle with the reds on the z, but how much larger?
Clem
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149305\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
We have found that soft proofing with gamut warning on/off in Photoshop is only a rough guide, and does not correspond very accurately with the actual print. It is especially variable if one has not made all the profiles oneself. For some reason when soft proofing using Epson factory stock profiles there appears to be a larger gamut (less clipping) than when using custom profiles made for an Epson or HP z3100 on the same paper (for example, Epson Enhanced Matte), but real printed results are the opposite. We also get visually more saturated and wider gamut prints on EEM from the HP than from the Epson. Incidentally, EEM was once a standard for its price and availability; but it's time has come and gone. It is now an inferior paper compared to matte papers available for less money. We used tons of it for commercial work and rough proofs, and it was a problematic cost compromise- optical brighteners that fade rapidly, muddy blacks and poor deep color saturation, inability to hold much ink without blocking up details, etc. Maybe z3100 had problems with the first software releases and certain papers; but we keep looking for a "red" problem and all I find are clean colors with incredible saturation. Color inks obviously vary from HP to Epson to Cannon; but paper ink loads (limits), paper receptive coatings, especially the paper color/whiteness, and profiling has a variable effect on color matching and smooth crossovers (in the driver), especially with cmyk+rgb inksets. So maybe some had or are having color problems, but we are getting great results. Try the HP Matte Litho-realistic as a much better economical alternative to EEM, even on an Epson with K3 inks.
Subjectively comparing actual prints from the same file on Epson and HP on matte papers, we prefer the HP prints. We've used Epson for years (two are dedicated to matte black ink), and the prints are wonderful. But the HP is just spectacular, with a much longer archival life. Unfortunately for us this is often a bummer, since we make limited edition archival books; the z3100ps is a pain to load sheets quickly, and there is no HP z3100 equivalent to the Epson 4xxx series for handling sheet material. All our Epson’s load sheet paper better, faster, and more easily.
BTW, APS has been working fine for me with the new firmware and software. I'm now using fmw 6.0.0.7. APS features work the same as with 4.0.0.6. However, when I compare profiles created from the previous firmware with newest (using Profiler Pro Measure tool), I am getting some variation (delta E of .6 to 2.8). My older calibrations and profiles were out of date according to the HP printer utility, so that may be a reason. However, something different seems to be going on. For one thing, either more ink is being laid down, or the humidity is higher in the loft, since a regularly used heavy cotton matte fine art paper is now "wetter" and there is a slight paper buckling. It subjectively seems to have better saturation in the deep colors but without detail blocking up. I used this paper only for B&W since it was poor with color, but now it looks better. I am going to redo all paper calibrations and profiles.