Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Leonardo Barreto on August 13, 2007, 03:11:48 pm
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There is much discussion and interest in the new Hybrid y 6 --that is what the H stands for, but not a lot of the posters question the basic architecture of the system. For example, is this new platform attempting -- by being hybrid-- to be the system for the future while maintaining a foot in the past at the same time?. Or in other words, wanting to do too many things while condemning the performance of all ?
When the designers and architects decided to make this system a 6 x 6 format, -- when 100% of digital backs is 6 x 4.5 or smaller -- what where they thinking about?.
The disadvantage is very real: the mirror on a 6 x 6 format is larger than that of, say, H3, AFD or Contax 645, so the lens mount has to be placed further away from the film plane than all other platforms.
The practical complication of having a larger film-plane-to-lens-mount distance is that formulation of wideangle lenses gets more complicated.
The Hy6 will come to market with no 35mm (one will be produced later), and not even a planned 28mm.
With Hasselblad opting to market their 28mm as a closed architecture exclusive to the H3 owner club members, the importance of a 28mm is vital for a large majority of MF photographers -- not for all -- is clear.
Making wide angle lenses for MF is not an easy task. That is why the H3 28mm needs software correction, and Mamiyas 28mm costs five thousand dollars.
If making such lens is so hard for Hasselblad an Mamiya, that have the smaller format size, imagine how it will be to make one when the same lens has to also work for a film plane of 6 x 6 when you want to shoot film.
What you have here is a system that will work well in all applications where the shot calls for zoom in, and not when the art director ask you to "zoom out"
As a photographer you will have to consider if shooting 6 x 6 transparencies is more important than to get the wide view while working with a digital back.
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Well, the Mamiya 28 mm is supposed to be able to cover 645 film, which is probably not much larger than what 6x6 digital would probably be.
I don't know to what extend the lens flange-film distance differs between a Mamiya 645 and the new Hy6, nor do I know the exact impact of this distance on the possibility to design a really wide lens.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I believe this was previously discussed. The reason for 6x6 is to have the ability to rotate a digital back vertical to horizontal and not have to rotate the camera.
When the designers and architects decided to make this system a 6 x 6 format, -- when 100% of digital backs is 6 x 4.5 or smaller -- what where they thinking about?.
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I can't answer your questions. 28mm on a 48mm wide sensor will give the same FOV as a 33mm on a 56mm wide sensor, pretty close to the upcoming 35mm. So *if* a larger sensor becomes available, the difference between the platforms will be insignificant. Yes, that's a big if, but...
everyone is free to stick their back on a view camera today and use 24mm and 28mm lenses with the important bonus of tilt/shift. Nothing beats that, and so that's what I plan to do as soon as I've robbed the local bank...
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I agree completly with the OP (and have questioned that architecture many times!)
Even a 35 covering 66 will be a new 'retrofucus world record' (38 being widest at this point??)
And that has not been constructed yet
(how long did it take mamya ?? four years from announcement to do thier 28)
So we dont even know when a 35 will be available - let alone a 28
Yes sinar offer view camera solutions that may (or may not - without a slow plate change) interface with a HY6 fitting back and wider lenses
But there is no hand held solution at the mo
I guess alpa will line something up but a manufacturer with sinars heritage should not need to rely on a third party to sort them out
The answer is comparitvely simple..
Mirror lock up.
Recessed lens (al la nikkor 8mm)
Replace the WLF with a range finder style device and rely on the AF* or live view
S
* antiquated single point AF of course !
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a 35 on 6x6 is as extreme as it gets....the 28 mamiya is 645....the hass 28 is not quite 645 (only covers the hass39 back)....
for 24 and 28 lenses there is always "large format cameras" but i don't think these lenses cover 6x6 either (forget about movements)...there are optical limits...of course they are pushed and i think we are already seeing this with the mamiya 28.....
i remember the 40mm for the hass V system was somewhere in the 7-8000$ range 15 years ago....
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Exactly my point. If you come up with a new system from a brand like SINAR you expect it to do as well and better than the other two leading ones, but what they say is: you don't really need a wide angle lens, but if you really need one, then our suggestion is to purchase --or rent-- an alternative solution (like an Alpa-Digitar 28mm) for $200/day. What kind of system is that?. Ok, you get the ability to turn the back instead of the camera when shooting portrait. Lets think about that. First of all I have my Mamiy 645 AFD/P25 inside a Hefty OneZip Gallon bag that goes in a Pelican case so that I get zero dust on my sensor. Do I want to deal with removing the back from the camera on the field? probably not. I think that this was a good solution for a Mamiya RB/RZ type of camera that was hard to hand held, but my 645 is as easy as a 35mm and being 645 makes it more compact and reliable (less moving and coupling parts).
So, the idea of rotating back as justification for the larger format and consequent lens mount to film plane extended distance is a dubious choice in my humble opinion.
I agree completly with the OP (and have questioned that architecture many times!)
Even a 35 covering 66 will be a new 'retrofucus world record' (38 being widest at this point??)
And that has not been constructed yet
(how long did it take mamya ?? four years from announcement to do thier 28)
So we dont even know when a 35 will be available - let alone a 28
Yes sinar offer view camera solutions that may (or may not - without a slow plate change) interface with a HY6 fitting back and wider lenses
But there is no hand held solution at the mo
I guess alpa will line something up but a manufacturer with sinars heritage should not need to rely on a third party to sort them out
The answer is comparitvely simple..
Mirror lock up.
Recessed lens (al la nikkor 8mm)
Replace the WLF with a range finder style device and rely on the AF* or live view
S
* antiquated single point AF of course !
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Dear Leonardo,
Who says this? Certainly not Sinar.
We all wish a wide angle lens here, the question is to develop and manufacture it, among others.
Best regards,
thierry
If you come up with a new system from a brand like SINAR you expect it to do as well and better than the other two leading ones, but what they say is: you don't really need a wide angle lens, but if you really need one, then our suggestion is to purchase --or rent-- an alternative solution (like an Alpa-Digitar 28mm) for $200/day. What kind of system is that?.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=136740\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Exactly my point. If you come up with a new system from a brand like SINAR you expect it to do as well and better than the other two leading ones, but what they say is: you don't really need a wide angle lens, but if you really need one, then our suggestion is to purchase --or rent-- an alternative solution (like an Alpa-Digitar 28mm) for $200/day. What kind of system is that?. Ok, you get the ability to turn the back instead of the camera when shooting portrait. Lets think about that. First of all I have my Mamiy 645 AFD/P25 inside a Hefty OneZip Gallon bag that goes in a Pelican case so that I get zero dust on my sensor. Do I want to deal with removing the back from the camera on the field? probably not. I think that this was a good solution for a Mamiya RB/RZ type of camera that was hard to hand held, but my 645 is as easy as a 35mm and being 645 makes it more compact and reliable (less moving and coupling parts).
So, the idea of rotating back as justification for the larger format and consequent lens mount to film plane extended distance is a dubious choice in my humble opinion.
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what's with all the animosity?
I know many photographers who've never needed even close to a 28mm lens.me included.
If you're looking at something like that perhaps you should consider a digital view camera
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what's with all the animosity?
I know many photographers who've never needed even close to a 28mm lens.me included.
If you're looking at something like that perhaps you should consider a digital view camera
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=136761\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think this is what Leonardo is pointing, none shooting wide will consider the Hy6. This, for me, means that the Hy6 is more intended for portraits, fashion, maybe nature. But honestly, with the H series and mamiya in the market, who is going to choose a camera that requires back rotation? And at this price, how many nature photographers are going to buy this?
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I think this is what Leonardo is pointing, none shooting wide will consider the Hy6. This, for me, means that the Hy6 is more intended for portraits, fashion, maybe nature. But honestly, with the H series and mamiya in the market, who is going to choose a camera that requires back rotation? And at this price, how many nature photographers are going to buy this?
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shrugs, I'll be surprised if they don't come out with a rotating back mechanism in the near future
and who's going to use this? If you've ever shot with the rollei lenses you will understand the allure of it.
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shrugs, I'll be surprised if they don't come out with a rotating back mechanism in the near future
and who's going to use this? If you've ever shot with the rollei lenses you will understand the allure of it.
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although using wider lenses for architecture with my gottschalt i never missed in my contax
a lens wider than the 35mm, which is available for the 645 .... and even that one i rarely use.
how long exist 28mm lenses in the market for mf ? i think a half year or so with the H3.
and now this 28mm capacity should be the onliest decision factor for a mf system.
doesnt sound reasonable for me. many more things to consider than that .....
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Even a 35 covering 66 will be a new 'retrofucus world record' (38 being widest at this point??)
I believe the Rodenstock 35mm f/4 Sironar HR is a retrofocus design. However its image circle is only 70mm, so it won't quite cover a 6x6.
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..."what's with all the animosity?"...
There is no intent of animosity on my side at all. The questions and opinions that I have posted here are honest attempts to understand this new system from the perspective of a digital back owner and a machine/gadget confessed addict (growing up I was constantly taking my toys apart, and only some times managing to assemble them back).
Pointing out that because of architecture choices the Hy6 will probably never have a 28mm is relevant to the discussion of the Hy6, I think.
Not using -- or owning -- a 28mm is one thing. I have a 35mm and could absolutely not survive with one. But investing in a system that has no plans to make one available is a different thing. It means that you have a system with a weak link, or with a handicap.
In an extremely competitive world of digital MF the Hy6 is a new comer, has to compete with all the cheap Mamiya gear out there on eBay, and with the aggressive marketing of the Hasselblad H system, so, as a photographer considering investing in digital backs, bodies and a fleet of lenses I would try to consider the market viability of the system. Remember Contax and Bronica?
If you come to market with a system that is excellent but only in normal to telephoto-aplication fields your potential customer base gets reduced. So, the chances for the entire system for survival in an already harsh environment don't get any better.
In other words, the fact that there is or there isn't a 28mm may affect you even if you don't ever plan to use one.
As photographers, I ask you this: what is it more important to more of you. To rotate the back or to have wide angle lenses?
leonardobarreto.com/
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shrugs, I'll be surprised if they don't come out with a rotating back mechanism in the near future
and who's going to use this? If you've ever shot with the rollei lenses you will understand the allure of it.
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Yes, I know rollei lenses very well, but I cant't buy a system just for the lenses. There's other factors and H lenses, Zeiss and Mamiya are second to none.
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Yes, I know rollei lenses very well, but I cant't buy a system just for the lenses. There's other factors and H lenses, Zeiss and Mamiya are second to none.
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Some would disagree
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Someone i know in a MF distributor here in New York told me that "the new Mamiya 28mm is better than the Hasselblad" one. So that would make Mamiyas lens the best 28 for any reflex MF camera since there is no Rollei 28, or 35...
Probably the reasoning of the conceptual team that created the Hy6 was to give a body to the existing stock of excellent Rollei lenses. And not solely the idea of a rotating back. (After that, the only other advantage is that you could shoot 6x6 transparencies from time to time... )
No matter how good Rollei optics are, -- and they may very well be superior than Fuji or Mamiya -- "saving" them with a body that has to expand the film plane to mount distance from that of the other two leading systems is not the best way. Probably the way to go would have been to drop the mirror and make the camera smart enough to shoot with old or new optics at different distances.
Some would disagree
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Someone i know in a MF distributor here in New York told me that "the new Mamiya 28mm is better than the Hasselblad" one. So that would make Mamiyas lens the best 28 for any reflex MF camera since there is no Rollei 28, or 35...
Probably the reasoning of the conceptual team that created the Hy6 was to give a body to the existing stock of excellent Rollei lenses. And not solely the idea of a rotating back. (After that, the only other advantage is that you could shoot 6x6 transparencies from time to time... )
No matter how good Rollei optics are, -- and they may very well be superior than Fuji or Mamiya -- "saving" them with a body that has to expand the film plane to mount distance from that of the other two leading systems is not the best way. Probably the way to go would have been to drop the mirror and make the camera smart enough to shoot with old or new optics at different distances.
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leonardo...I think I'm amused at the strong finality in the way you pose your opening statement for this topic thread
I think you're also making some very strong assumptions about the design of the camera.
from personal experience, I've never needed to ask any of questions you posed.
Yesterday I just shot with a 45mm mamiya lens, and the distortion irritated me.The distortion isn't any better on a hassy 35mm.thus I've been looking into silvestri flexicam....and don't tell me about in camera distortion correction because I wnt to minimise my photoshop time as much as possible
I don't care how good a 28mm mamiya or hassy has, for the kind of price they are asking I could easily get a wide angle rodenstock HR...or even 2.
and I really really question what percentage of medium format photographers actually shoot superwide. Large format, maybe.
I played with a Hy6 prototype last year. love love love it. I'm waiting for it to be released and I can buy it.(Leaf AFi version at least..)
any Leaf dealer here want to give me a heads up on when it's arriving?
and yes people who fall in love with rollei lenses swear by them.
Someone is offering me a 75-150mm zoom for the rollei. I'm just waiting to grab it.
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Leonardo:
I find your take on the new Hy6 to be an interesting one. It would seem that you want to have it be wrong in name, wrong in conception, wrong in application of optics, and wrong in its approach.
It would seem that your glass is half full. Fortunately, reality will prove the Hy6 to be a good thing or a not so good thing, after it can be acquired. The market will dictate the success of the Hy6, based on whether it addresses the needs of the market.
Being an optimist, I'm pleased that anyone is entering the market with a new medium format solution, especially given the reality that we've had companies like Contax, Bronica, and Pentax fold their cards and bow out of the market. That's not good for professional photography in my opinion. I have to tip my hat to Franke & Heideke for believing in the professional market enough to put up big bucks to make this gamble a reality. I'll bet that if they had you for pre-market research we wouldn't have a Hy6 to talk about.
Rather than suggest that the Hy6 isn't going to make it because of all the reasons you've put forth, I'm going to wait to see what it turns out to be. If it's a good thing, I'm going to want one. I will not be pre-judging the product before it becomes reality. But, perhaps you know a lot more than the rest of us...
Richard Chang
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The reason for 6x6 is to have the ability to rotate a digital back vertical to horizontal and not have to rotate the camera.
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Rotating backs seems to be an after-the-fact rationalization for the Hy6's use of 6x6 (56x56mm) format.
The reason that the Hy6 is 6x6 is that it is based on the Rollei MF cameras and lenses designed for that format, despite the far smaller format of the sensors used with it. (A 1.5x crop vertically, but only 1.16x horizontally.)
The Rollei system in turn used the square 6x6 format to allow MF film cameras with "top down" ground glass viewfinders to take both horizontals and verticals despite the impracticality of rotating such a camera.
Aside: rotating a rectangular film frame or sensor of up to 645 size (56x42.5mm) from horizontal to vertical will still keep it within the image circle of 645 format, so long as the lenses do indeed produce an image circle rather than being baffled down to a rectangle.
I agree with the OP that so long as DMF us using sensors no larger than about 36x48, it makes sense to adapt cameras and lenses to that format, instead of using larger format components with a heavy crop.
Especially since there no evidence that larger sensors will ever be made for DMF, and in particular no sign of sensors ever getting larger than what DMF leaders Hasselblad and Mamiya have a use for, meaning the 56x42.5mm of their 645 based systems. (It seems sadly that I can now ignore Pentax and its 645 lens system.)
Accommodating a mirror about 56mm deep (for 6x6) requires about 13.5mm more distance between lens and focal plane that with the roughly 42.5mm mirror depth needed by 645. at would seem to be a good explanation of why the minimum focal length in 6x6 format are significantly longer than available in 645 format.
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The Hy6 does not have to solve all one's photographic challenges. Be a little flexible. I would suggest the right tool for the job.
I shoot with an Alpa and a 24XL for wide, using calibrated hyperfocal settings. This makes for a rapid and simple set-up. At f11, set at 3m as I recall, things are in focus from about 1.5m to infinity. The 24XL is excellent.
I would leave the Hy6 for longer lenses (50, 90macro, 300).
So, 2 different tools; same back. If a 28 were made for the Hy6, I do not think it would be much less than the cost of the Alpa body and 24XL.
-Robert
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Robert!
I couldn't agree more!
That's the route that I'm taking.
A Hy6 with 40+55 TCS+ 60+80/2+ 90 Macro +180.
All beautiful manual Schneider lenses that can be purchased 2nd hand for a decent( ) price.
I'm not even going to purchase the upcoming 35.
I'll use the Alpa with a 24 + 35 Apo Digitars.
Nice and small and no distortion!
Cheers,
Willem.
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But does ALPA take a Rollei fit back ??
S
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Alpa has a eMotion-75LV adapter!
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Alpa has a eMotion-75LV adapter!
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Indeed. but that involves undoing the plate - fine for buildings - rubbish on a speedboat etc
S
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For the speedboat the 5D will be fine.
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For the speedboat the 5D will be fine.
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Well either we want the look/feel/quality of MF or we dont
My general point is that the HY6 is only half a system right now (for handheld shooters which is surely a large aprt of the market)
Maybe sinar arnt interested in competiting with hasselblad - whic h is of course fine - horses for courses
S
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Alpas can also take all Rollei 6000 series lenses.
Carl Zeiss made a 30mm lens (the F-Distagon f3.5) which is no longer in production but is known to turn up here and there which is made for the 6000 family too.
I'd rather have a rotatable back than rotate the camera - it's more confortable that way.
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I've been rotating my RZ and Fuji GX680 filmholders(film what's that?) for years!
The only way to go!
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I think HY6 went the 6x6 route because they expect a square format chip in the near future. I suspect there are many more photographers that would like to return to the square format way of working (or the manner in which they used their RZ's with rotating backs) with either waist level or 45 degree finders then there are photographers that require ultra-wide lenses. That is not to say an ultra-wide won't eventually be developed for the HY6. Handheld in the manner of the Hassy V, RZ or Rollei 6000 is a more stable way to hold the camera for many MF photographers. Not everyone prefers the 35mm SLR way of working which the 645 camera's try and emulate.
There is no perfect system that is best for everyone.
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I also had a RZ and think that rotating the back was fantastic, but with my 645 things are different. It would be like a rotating-back Nikormat ! I rather rotate the camera.
But the point is that you are trading this for wide angle lenses like the 28mm.
The Hy6 is like an SUV with instructions to "bring along a Jeep for the "rare" moments when you need to use 4x4".
I remember when my wife and I where looking to rent here in NY. A broker was showing us an apartment that had a dark and small kitchen. She said "nobody really kooks here in New York, with so many good restaurants"... well, we do.
If you have to complement your MF with an Alpa and two view camera lenses, then you don't have an entire system, but half, as was said before.
I've been rotating my RZ and Fuji GX680 filmholders(film what's that?) for years!
The only way to go!
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I also had a RZ and think that rotating the back was fantastic, but with my 645 things are different. It would be like a rotating-back Nikormat ! I rather rotate the camera.
But the point is that you are trading this for wide angle lenses like the 28mm.
The Hy6 is like an SUV with instructions to "bring along a Jeep for the "rare" moments when you need to use 4x4".
I remember when my wife and I where looking to rent here in NY. A broker was showing us an apartment that had a dark and small kitchen. She said "nobody really kooks here in New York, with so many good restaurants"... well, we do.
If you have to complement your MF with an Alpa and two view camera lenses, then you don't have an entire system, but half, as was said before.
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there's no pleasing everyone I guess.
I had a H2 mounted sideways off my tripod with the zoom lens. trust me I was this close to a heart attack when the camera suddenly loosened from the ballhead and dropped.thank god for my fast reflexes though
Will be very happy to see a rotating back soon I hope.
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I dropped my RZ all the way to the hard floor, and that was a rotating back camera. With my 645 I use an 8x10 tripod most of the time (on location I have a carbon fiber one, but I pay extra attention to what I do).
Again, rotating backs are fine, but you have to check the price you pay for them, is this a rotation like the RZ or do you have to remove the back and put it back in? Is the exposure to dust in the sensor an accepted trade in for you? as you say, there's no pleasing everyone I guess. I would not be pleased to find out that half way in to my shoot the sensor got compromised with dust.
The 645afd has an integrated viewfinder and a very firm lock on the digital back so the moving and coupling parts are limited, as a result the system's reliability is maximized -- size and costs reduced -- If I shot most of the time portrait I would get an L shape adapter and problem solved.
there's no pleasing everyone I guess.
I had a H2 mounted sideways off my tripod with the zoom lens. trust me I was this close to a heart attack when the camera suddenly loosened from the ballhead and dropped.thank god for my fast reflexes though
Will be very happy to see a rotating back soon I hope.
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I think HY6 went the 6x6 route because they expect a square format chip in the near future.There is no perfect system that is best for everyone.
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You are dreaming: the historic reasons for staying with the existence 6x6 format of Rollei camera and lenses are obvious, as is the fact that medium format has been moving away from square to oblong formats like 645 and 6x7 for a long time, starting well before the change to digital. The likelihood of any sensor maker making a new square sensor bigger than 42.5x56mm are miniscule.
I suspect there are many more photographers that would like to return to the square format way of working ... then there are photographers that require ultra-wide lenses.
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Again I have to disagree, especially since 28mm is not "ultra-wide" with 36x48 format sensors; it is comparable to 19-21mm in 35mm format or 33mm in 645. Every 35mm system offers considerably wider lenses than 19mm, and every medium format system offers a lens about that wide, like 35mm for 645. (In fact every one of the new smaller format DSLR systems like EF-S, DX and 4/3 offer considerably wider angular FOV options that that, and they still get accused of suffering from a wide angle crop!)
This degree of wide angle coverage is clearly far more in demand overall than square formats, in MF and in SLRs as a whole.
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Curiously, just before every new launch there is a spate of "why did they do it this way? it should have been...."
The interesting thing about the Hy6 is that it is a return to the Hassy 500C in size: good lenses up front, good back and the smallest "box" in between. It makes sense that they "off loaded" as much as they could to the side into handle, to lessen the box size. Just like a 500C. While I never cared for the ergonomics of the 500C, the size (with a digital back) is pretty nice.
I for one prefer the viewing style of "top down" and cannot work with the large size of the 645 DSLR's. Too much weight on the wrist, and they are pretty big to hold up to your eye. So welcome is the Hy6.
Regarding the size of the camera - the lenses are about as big as the box, so there isn't a lot to be gained vertically or horizontally in size with a change to the 645 format. Yes, the depth would be less, and the mirror smaller. To address this, they have also concentrated on smoothing that action, successfully according to those who have handled it. So perhaps thats a moot point.
So at the end - we have a new smaller MF camera, open back architecture (to a point), lots of lens compatibility, and sized around the 6x6 - which is a bit odd from the digital viewpoint, but all in all, not a bad thing. Perhaps excessive, and unnecessary - but think of it perhaps as a 645 digital, with the quick option of 6x6 film if needed. Not shabby. Perhaps not "Canon" like thinking - but not terrible either.
And if anyone were to make a 6x6 digital back, well, they'd be in the catbird seat, wouldn't they? I wonder if someone like Sinar is just waiting to see what the demand might be before introducing one. That would be a cute trick. And even if the demand isn't high, how many do you have to sell if you are the only one?
Geoff G
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Curiously, just before every new launch there is a spate of "why did they do it this way? it should have been...."
The interesting thing about the Hy6 is that it is a return to the Hassy 500C in size: good lenses up front, good back and the smallest "box" in between. It makes sense that they "off loaded" as much as they could to the side into handle, to lessen the box size. Just like a 500C. While I never cared for the ergonomics of the 500C, the size (with a digital back) is pretty nice.
I for one prefer the viewing style of "top down" and cannot work with the large size of the 645 DSLR's. Too much weight on the wrist, and they are pretty big to hold up to your eye. So welcome is the Hy6.
Regarding the size of the camera - the lenses are about as big as the box, so there isn't a lot to be gained vertically or horizontally in size with a change to the 645 format. Yes, the depth would be less, and the mirror smaller. To address this, they have also concentrated on smoothing that action, successfully according to those who have handled it. So perhaps thats a moot point.
So at the end - we have a new smaller MF camera, open back architecture (to a point), lots of lens compatibility, and sized around the 6x6 - which is a bit odd from the digital viewpoint, but all in all, not a bad thing. Perhaps excessive, and unnecessary - but think of it perhaps as a 645 digital, with the quick option of 6x6 film if needed. Not shabby. Perhaps not "Canon" like thinking - but not terrible either.
And if anyone were to make a 6x6 digital back, well, they'd be in the catbird seat, wouldn't they? I wonder if someone like Sinar is just waiting to see what the demand might be before introducing one. That would be a cute trick. And even if the demand isn't high, how many do you have to sell if you are the only one?
Geoff G
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Only Sinar would not be the only one as the Leaf Afi and Rollei 6008 are all akin...
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And if anyone were to make a 6x6 digital back, well, they'd be in the catbird seat, wouldn't they? I wonder if someone like Sinar is just waiting to see what the demand might be before introducing one. That would be a cute trick.
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Sinar cannot do that because it does not makes sensors and the two companies that do make MF sensors, Kodak and Dalsa, have shown no sign of making the size or shape of sensors that you speculate about.
Look at the actual trends: in their most recent new models
1. both MF sensor makers stayed with exactly the same maximum sensor size as they were offering in the previous generation (about 48x36mm),
2. both MF sensor makers have abandoned older square models of about 37x37mm in favor of 4:3 shape models of 44x33mm, so that all models are now 4:3 shape
3. even the smaller models are 4:3 (44x33) even square sensors of comparable size could be compatible with 645 and 6x6 gear.
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It's all speculation and I don't think you will see a 6x6 sensor but perhaps a 44x44 or 48x48 or some step up from the current 36x36. There is a lot of flexibility in being able to crop a landscape or portrait image from the same original. And I certainly find the looking down stance more stable and less fatiguing then a 90 degree finder with MF sized cameras.
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Leonardo, I do recommend that you try handling the camera as soon as you get the chance, you may be pleasantly surprised...I found it easier to handle than the hassy
as it has been pointed out before, more options in the MF world are always welcome.
I for one never liked using the 645 cameras in the film day (always seemed like mediocre SLRs...), so a different working style of a camera in the market is welcome
plus...once again...THE INCREDIBLE RANGE OF LENSES (apart from a superwide...no big loss for me)
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I disagree regarding having 1 system for everything, before digital I had more then 1 system. I shot with 35mm 6x6 hasselblad and 4x5. Now I shoot 2 systems, 1 cambo wide ds with 24xl, 25, 47 and 58. I am looking forward to purchasing the hy6 or H camera. With the cambo I can correct the perspective can you do that with a H camera?
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I disagree regarding having 1 system for everything, before digital I had more then 1 system. I shot with 35mm 6x6 hasselblad and 4x5. Now I shoot 2 systems, 1 cambo wide ds with 24xl, 25, 47 and 58. I am looking forward to purchasing the hy6 or H camera. With the cambo I can correct the perspective can you do that with a H camera?
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I know, I know, I will never win, this thread will never end, but...
What if I say that...
I could have my Mamiya 645AFD with a 80,150,40,35 ... rent a 28mm ...
AND 1
cambo wide ds with 24xl, 25,47 and 58.
Whith the cambo I can correct perspective
AND with the Mamiya I could shoot WIDE action things, like: airborn architectural, speed boats, speed horses, speed cars, a model on deck of a sailing boat etc etc.
Can you do that with the thousands of dollars invested in your two systems? NO. You need a third system.
See my point?
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well, you're right, that's a never ending "story"!
But still, I would like to answer "YES" to your last question. YES, he can do this with his 2 systems, like you can do it with yours.
Simply take 2 or 3 shots with the 35mm and stitch them together: it would probably take less time (and cost less) than getting out to rent a 28mm.
Best regards,
Thierry
I know, I know, I will never win, this thread will never end, but...
What if I say that...
I could have my Mamiya 645AFD with a 80,150,40,35 ... rent a 28mm ...
AND 1
cambo wide ds with 24xl, 25,47 and 58.
Whith the cambo I can correct perspective
AND with the Mamiya I could shoot WIDE action things, like: airborn architectural, speed boats, speed horses, speed cars, a model on deck of a sailing boat etc etc.
Can you do that with the thousands of dollars invested in your two systems? NO. You need a third system.
See my point?
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Hi Thierry, you can probably ask the guys in SINAR why they went 66. I admire the design in my 4x5 SINAR, it is a brand I respect...
But the answer you are giving is not correct because of the impossibility of stitching images while shooting a fashion model on the deck of a boat, or any other action subject.
In any case you can probably shoot an action subject that requires a wide view with your second system -- the one that is not the Hy6 -- pre focusing and using a range-finder. Stitching would also be done better with that other system, by the way.
My advantage with a 28 mm would be to have it attached to an AF, auto exposure, reflex, medium format system that is as small and manageable as a Nikon F.
You would have two choices: turn down the assignment or rent a Hasselblad or Mamiya system.
Also you have to remember that there is no 35mm yet. How is this lens going to be? what f.stop? price? barrel distortion etc etc. It is difficult to buy a system before meeting this important lens. I use mine all the time. I know that it has some barrel, but is a good sharp work horse that is in my pelican case as we speak (I got a demo at a bargain)...
well, you're right, that's a never ending "story"!
But still, I would like to answer "YES" to your last question. YES, he can do this with his 2 systems, like you can do it with yours.
Simply take 2 or 3 shots with the 35mm and stitch them together: it would probably take less time (and cost less) than getting out to rent a 28mm.
Best regards,
Thierry
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hi Leonardo,
I'm not trying to argue to argue. When there is sun there are also shadows.
On the other side, I don't know so many shoting a model with a 28mm on MF: seems weird to me.
And AF on a Wide 28mm wouldn't be that much of a need, is it?
Best regards,
Thierry
Hi Thierry, you can probably ask the guys in SINAR why they went 66. I admire the design in my 4x5 SINAR, it is a brand I respect...
But the answer you are giving is not correct because of the impossibility of stitching images while shooting a fashion model on the deck of a boat, or any other action subject.
In any case you can probably shoot an action subject that requires a wide view with your second system -- the one that is not the Hy6 -- pre focusing and using a range-finder. Stitching would also be done better with that other system, by the way.
My advantage with a 28 mm would be to have it attached to an AF, auto exposure, reflex, medium format system that is as small and manageable as a Nikon F.
You would have two choices: turn down the assignment or rent a Hasselblad or Mamiya system.
Also you have to remember that there is no 35mm yet. How is this lens going to be? what f.stop? price? barrel distortion etc etc. It is difficult to buy a system before meeting this important lens. I use mine all the time. I know that it has some barrel, but is a good sharp work horse that is in my pelican case as we speak (I got a demo at a bargain)...
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Hi Thierry
Re focusing and wide angle lenses, I am fiinding that with the 35mm lens on H1 my most reliable focusing is with the distance scale on the lens. Its not that easy to focus manually if in subdued ambient light and/or the subject has no hard edges. Also, being centre point focusing the af is not that usable as after composing an image you don't want to have to do it again just for the purpose of focusing. Missed focus is quite obvious with MF. The 28mm would have a bit better dof, but can't imagine it being a big difference. A good multipoint af would be a useful feature that I would look for in a new purchase.
regards
David
And AF on a Wide 28mm wouldn't be that much of a need, is it?
Best regards,
Thierry
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As a sales representative is that your answer to a photographer that wants to shoot a model --or any other moving subject -- with a wide angle: "your question seams weird"? and... "use a view camera from someone else"?
Anyway, what about the 35mm part of my question, when will it be out and what are the specs?
hi Leonardo,
I'm not trying to argue to argue. When there is sun there are also shadows.
On the other side, I don't know so many shoting a model with a 28mm on MF: seems weird to me.
And AF on a Wide 28mm wouldn't be that much of a need, is it?
Best regards,
Thierry
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Dear Lenardo,
I don't understand why you get so agressive? I have asked a simple question. It does not seem, for me, a "standard" choice to take a 28mm on a MF sensor to shoot fashion. And I am not at all trying to make you do this particular job with a view camera!
There might be cases, and I don't pretend to deny you that you have been confronted with this, but I would not consider this to be a common and a daily choice of lens for fashion work, with all due respect. Im a speaking here not as a sales manager, but as a photographer having a bit experience.
I respect all and every idea and choice, but an explanation is sometimes necessary and not too much asked.
I am simply trying to understand why the availability or not of a 28mm lens on MF makes people decide to go for a system or not. And then I will take this information and report it: you might suspect that I shall be asked for the reasons, when defending or rejecting the idea of such a lens in our system at Sinar.
35 mm for the Sinar Hy6 & availability: this lens will be a "Schneider AFD 2.8/35 PQS". More details and specs will follow i due time. This lens should be available in January '08. Prices will be communicated (sorry, I don't have them, yet).
Thank and best regards,
Thierry
As a sales representative is that your answer to a photographer that wants to shoot a model --or any other moving subject -- with a wide angle: "your question seams weird"? and... "use a view camera from someone else"?
Anyway, what about the 35mm part of my question, when will it be out and what are the specs?
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Best regards to you Thierry, maybe I should see the camera one day. Send me an invitation when in NY...
Dear Lenardo,
I don't understand why you get so agressive? I have asked a simple question. It does not seem, for me, a "standard" choice to take a 28mm on a MF sensor to shoot fashion. And I am not at all trying to make you do this particular job with a view camera!
There might be cases, and I don't pretend to deny you that you have been confronted with this, but I would not consider this to be a common and a daily choice of lens for fashion work, with all due respect. Im a speaking here not as a sales manager, but as a photographer having a bit experience.
I respect all and every idea and choice, but an explanation is sometimes necessary and not too much asked.
I am simply trying to understand why the availability or not of a 28mm lens on MF makes people decide to go for a system or not. And then I will take this information and report it: you might suspect that I shall be asked for the reasons, when defending or rejecting the idea of such a lens in our system at Sinar.
35 mm for the Sinar Hy6 & availability: this lens will be a "Schneider AFD 2.8/35 PQS". More details and specs will follow i due time. This lens should be available in January '08. Prices will be communicated (sorry, I don't have them, yet).
Thank and best regards,
Thierry
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Thanks!
I shall forward your wish to our distributor.
Best regards,
Thierry
Best regards to you Thierry, maybe I should see the camera one day. Send me an invitation when in NY...
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EPd,
Thanks for the information and clarification. We at Sinar had been told it was a Schneider. Sorry if I'm wrong.
Availability: may be optimistic, nevertheless that also what we have been given as last date for the availability.
If you are such an "insider": would you please tell the people you are in contact with to give us the correct information? Would be helpfull, indeed.
Thanks and kind regards,
Thierry
Thierry,
Please check your sources. The 35mm is announced as a Flektogon. This is not a Schneider model name, but Zeiss Jena, aka Jenoptik. The image of the lens I posted in this thread is the same as used in Sinar's publications:
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....ndpost&p=130202 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=18343&view=findpost&p=130202)
[attachment=3158:attachment]
As for this Flektogon's availability: don't hold you breath. It's going to take some time before all its design issues are ironed out. January '08 seems too optimistic to me.
Anyway, for those wanting a wide angle for their future Hy6, there is always still the 30mm Zeiss fisheye. Its pictures can easily be calculated into distortion free images using software. And then: there is always something called "film". For those who never tried it: it makes awesome images, especially with wide angles like 30mm fisheye and 40mm. There is nothing wrong with occasionally using it when you need the widest angles now and then.
To Leonardo: you might like to educate yourself some more before asking further questions. I suggest you start here and read the entire thread (especially my messages):
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=17511 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=17511)
Regards,
EPd
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Dear All,
I have been checking, since EPd had other information than the one I published about the coming 35mm, to know where the mistake comes from.
It is entirely my mistake!
We know about this 35mm lens being a Flektogon 2.8/35 mm HFT PQS since Mai this year.
Unfortunately I had not noticed this and used an older information.
My apologies for the mistake.
EPd. Thanks to point this out.
Best regards,
Thierry
EPd,
Thanks for the information and clarification. We at Sinar had been told it was a Schneider. Sorry if I'm wrong.
Thierry
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EPd, thanks, I have seen your post. I don't think I have more questions, I think that things are as clear as they will probably get. Anyone that wants to spend tens of thousands in a system like this must probably be 18 or older and able to figure out the survival chances of a new MF system with tree heads, no 28mm and no 35mm... at the moment I'm using my time to educate myself on the new Capture 1 -4- that seams more complex...
Thierry,
Please check your sources. The 35mm is announced as a Flektogon. This is not a Schneider model name, but Zeiss Jena, aka Jenoptik. The image of the lens I posted in this thread is the same as used in Sinar's publications:
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....ndpost&p=130202 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=18343&view=findpost&p=130202)
[attachment=3158:attachment]
As for this Flektogon's availability: don't hold you breath. It's going to take some time before all its design issues are ironed out. January '08 seems too optimistic to me.
Anyway, for those wanting a wide angle for their future Hy6, there is always still the 30mm Zeiss fisheye. Its pictures can easily be calculated into distortion free images using software. And then: there is always something called "film". For those who never tried it: it makes awesome images, especially with wide angles like 30mm fisheye and 40mm. There is nothing wrong with occasionally using it when you need the widest angles now and then.
To Leonardo: you might like to educate yourself some more before asking further questions. I suggest you start here and read the entire thread (especially my messages):
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=17511 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=17511)
Regards,
EPd
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EPd, thanks, I have seen your post. I don't think I have more questions, I think that things are as clear as they will probably get. Anyone that wants to spend tens of thousands in a system like this must probably be 18 or older and able to figure out the survival chances of a new MF system with tree heads, no 28mm and no 35mm... at the moment I'm using my time to educate myself on the new Capture 1 -4- that seams more complex...
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oh, i thought you are older than 18. sorry my mistake herein.....
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Thierry,
Anyway, for those wanting a wide angle for their future Hy6, there is always still the 30mm Zeiss fisheye. Its pictures can easily be calculated into distortion free images using software. And then: there is always something called "film". For those who never tried it: it makes awesome images, especially with wide angles like 30mm fisheye and 40mm. There is nothing wrong with occasionally using it when you need the widest angles now and then.
Regards,
EPd
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The scary thing is I think you are serious.
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The scary thing is I think you are serious.
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Actually Howard, I suspect that EPd is right on one thing: film is the only type of 6x6 format "sensor" that we are likely to see in DSLRs (as opposed to spy satellites) and so in some sense it is the best sensor choice for a 6x6 format system, at least for those who seek more than mildly wide angle coverage. (The forthcoming 35mm will with 36x48 give FOV like about 23-27mm in 24x36, depending on the shape you want. Still the least wide rectilinear wide angle option of any SLR system I know of by a good margin.)
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It wold be good to have one of this shift adapters to mount the lens (whenever it becomes available) on a Mamiya 645. Since the mount ring to film/sensor plane is larger on the Hy6 than on a 645 there is space for the shift "mechanism" and the larger image circle could provide good movement latitude.
The architects and engineers of this lens will have a tall order producing this one. On the Hy6 it will be an extravagance to have a lens with all that wasted image circle Is like having one that could go to f1.4 but "made for 5.6" or as if it was f1.4 for film and 5.6 for digital.
Actually Howard, I suspect that EPd is right on one thing: film is the only type of 6x6 format "sensor" that we are likely to see in DSLRs (as opposed to spy satellites) and so in some sense it is the best sensor choice for a 6x6 format system, at least for those who seek more than mildly wide angle coverage. (The forthcoming 35mm will with 36x48 give FOV like about 23-27mm in 24x36, depending on the shape you want. Still the least wide rectilinear wide angle option of any SLR system I know of by a good margin.)
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It wold be good to have one of this shift adapters to mount the lens (whenever it becomes available) on a Mamiya 645. Since the mount ring to film/sensor plane is larger on the Hy6 than on a 645 there is space for the shift "mechanism" and the larger image circle could provide good movement latitude.
The architects and engineers of this lens will have a tall order producing this one. On the Hy6 it will be an extravagance to have a lens with all that wasted image circle Is like having one that could go to f1.4 but "made for 5.6" or as if it was f1.4 for film and 5.6 for digital.
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I am sure that in stead of a revolving back, there would be space on the the HY6 to have a shifting back
If I am not incorrect the revolving bit is seperate from the camera so both would be optons
Given 15mm+- onth hy6 it woud move from loser to winner on the spec front fro 645 chips
S
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I am sure that in stead of a revolving back, there would be space on the the HY6 to have a shifting back
If I am not incorrect the revolving bit is seperate from the camera so both would be optons
Given 15mm+- onth hy6 it woud move from loser to winner on the spec front fro 645 chips
S
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I was wondering if Hy6 do have a 28mm lens will the user start to question if a 24mm is possible? I think it is also fair to Hy6/Sinar that they might say they want to introduce a digital only 28mm lens for digital use only, it would for sure cost less than hainvg a 28mm cover the entire 6X6 format, and might as well include a software correction build in their hardware as Hasselblad did. But we should also praise for a company they look beyond the current confine of 36X48 sensor and hope to introduce something for potential and possibility, if not today, even if never, but the camera is no bigger than the current cameras in the market so why should we bother so much? I think at least Hy6/Sinar is trying to challenge something more difficult than matched what was available today. The Hy6 should be a very nice image capture viechcle to provide most needs, and just like there is no car that is perfect for all kind of uses. And probably Hy6 is the only platform to make utilize the Schneider tilt/shift lens made for the 600X mount that we ought to remember. But then I suppose for more serious and demanding photographer they will prefer to have a technical camera with back movement.
I guess it is fair to say if a camera is good enough to cover 90% of the work it is a good platform. There is always times we find shortage of certain focal length or features in professional use, it happend to our cameras today and it will happen to camers tomorrow.
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Sam,
A shifting/stitching back plate is an EXCELLENT idea allowing for EVERY Rollei-6000-mount lens to have rise/fall or shift EFFECT.
Kapture Group already offers it for the Fuji GX680 http://www.kapturegroup.com/solution/two.html (http://www.kapturegroup.com/solution/two.html) , so hopefully KG or Alpa or Leaf will manufacture such an adapter plate.
Billy