Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Digital Cameras & Shooting Techniques => Topic started by: Antarctic Mat on July 16, 2007, 08:26:14 am
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Hello.
I'm just researching an upgrade, I have had a 20d for 2 years now and want to move on. I mainly do landscape and would like the full frame option, I also work in a very harsh environment and although the 20d has been superb in temps down to -47 the lack of weatherproofing on the 5D would maybe worry me. So, it looks like the 1DS is the only option, is it really still the best after being out all this time? I could buy a 5D and 1D3 together for about the same price, does it really do the job of both still? The files I have seen for the 1DS2 have blown me away with the detail, obviously a vast improvement over the 20d.
So, any comments, I can't pop down and try one so I am having to buy blind and have it carried down to me. I'd love to go medium format digital but don't think anything will cope with the extremes of temperature I experience.
Thanks in advance.
Mat.
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this has been discussed on these forums quite a bit.
I switched from the 1DsII to the 5D shortly after the 5D came out. it's a much cleaner/sharper image. If you can't use the 5D, I would go with the 1D III . I haven't seen the files but I would bet they look a hell of a lot better than 1DsII even rez'd.... I personally was never happy with the 1DsII files. They lack sharpness and good color. Remember the 1Ds II is old old technology, compared to the 5D and Mark III.... All of this IMO of course!
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Thanks for your input Randal.
I've read loads of discussions on comparisons between all sort of cameras, one person loves the 5D because they have just spent a lot of money on it and because it's new they are going to think it's the best, same with people who have brought the 1d3, they have just spent money on it and are going to believe it's the best too. I understand it's all subjective.
I suppose I'm asking 5D owners if the fact that it isn't as weatherproof as the 1DS, is or has been an issue so that I can find out if it's likely to cope with extremes.
The 1D3 is obviously an extremely good camera but as I'm not bothered about the incredible speed it has having never maxed out the speed of the 20D. The smaller sensor bothers me a bit because I'm in to landscape much more than close up stuff. I have read about the file size as well, I'm not a pro but I enjoy photography and on the outside chance that I come up with a couple of saleable shots, I'd be slightly annoyed if they where of no use because they didn't come up to commercial file standards. Are these real issues to the people doing this for a living or am I worrying about nothing and should just go ahead and buy a 1D3?
Thanks again.
Mat.
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hey Matt, IMO, you're worrying about nothing and I think that a 1dIII would be enough for you and would hold up great. or 2 5D's for that matter. if you cant tell i really despise the 1DsII and honestly it's not as subjective as you might think. i had a 5D, thought i needed a 1Ds II, so i bought the 1Ds II and sold it a month later b/c i realized that the 5D file was much better/cleaner/sharper
I am a commercial shooter and use a 5D for 90% of my work. the other stuff, I use a p30 when needed. i have also done series of billboards with the 5D...
I actually shot a 100 page coffee table book completely with a 5D.
hope this helps. i always say go with new technology.... and if it's not enough, wait until the 1Ds III comes out sometime this year or next.
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Superb Randal, thanks for that. I think I needed to hear from someone who is producing commercial work that they are up to the job. I have no problem buying a 5D and a 1D3 if it covers everything, I wondered why the 1DS2 is still so expensive. I would have had no doubts about the 1D3 if it had matched the 1DS file size, I had in my head that anything less than what the 1DS produces wouldn't cut it with image libraries or commercial applications.
I would wait for the 1DS3 but I have to buy soon in order for the camera to be brought down here, I only have one chance to get it here this year. I leave early next year and hit some amazing islands on the way North so want to make the most of getting to these places that people rarely see. Can guarantee the 1DS3 will be announced the day after I but something!
Anyway, thanks again Randal, appreciated.
Mat.
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Superb Randal, thanks for that. I think I needed to hear from someone who is producing commercial work that they are up to the job. I have no problem buying a 5D and a 1D3 if it covers everything, I wondered why the 1DS2 is still so expensive. I would have had no doubts about the 1D3 if it had matched the 1DS file size, I had in my head that anything less than what the 1DS produces wouldn't cut it with image libraries or commercial applications.
I would wait for the 1DS3 but I have to buy soon in order for the camera to be brought down here, I only have one chance to get it here this year. I leave early next year and hit some amazing islands on the way North so want to make the most of getting to these places that people rarely see. Can guarantee the 1DS3 will be announced the day after I but something!
Anyway, thanks again Randal, appreciated.
Mat.
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It will be difficult to claim any camera is the best but for most of low to middle end commerical work, 1Ds MK2 is well capable of deliver, and with really good skill and control of work, 1Ds MK2 has no problem to meet many of the demand for higher end commercial work.
I have use P25 on Contax and migrate to P45 and along the way also invested a H3D39 system, while still using 1Ds MK2 for lots of pack shots and still/catalog works. For one, 1Ds MK2 has more depth of field so a lot of product shot, if you are not looking at serious large print, with good raw conversion and good post process work, 1Ds MK2 is still able to deliver good results and a lot faster to work with. And for fashion work or anything require ISO400 and above, 1Ds MK2 still a very strong tool. And many time it is also depending on the budget one client is affordable. For really serious and high quality work, however, the medium format digital back still deliver the quality that 1Ds MK2 cannot match but at the same time, it require a small army of supporting staffs working together for qucik delivery - and cost much higher than what would be the budget of using 1Ds MK2.
The chances are Canon might eventually introduce a 1Ds MK3, but I doubt if that will really makes the 1Ds MK2 obsolete.
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Mat,
I feel as though I have to point out that your 20D is not weathered sealed any better than the 5D, and as you say, it has performed well for you. I have both the 20D and the 5D, and the 5D has performed without problems for the (almost) 2 years I have owned it.
I have to admit to being seduced by the lure of a 1DSMkII, but after reading Randal's comments, I may just go for another 5D. At $US2600, it has to be considered something of a bargain now.
For your purposes, you might consider adding a BG-E4 battery pack... more power for cold conditions, a vertical release, and better balance to boot.
BTW, are you actually located in the Antarctic at the moment???
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Thanks for the responses guys, good to hear.
Khun_k, thanks for the details on the 1Ds, most of my images will be out in the field, quite harsh environment here.
Englishm, yep, that's what I guessed, the 20d has no waterproofing at all and has worked incredibly well so wanted to hear people experiences with the 5d. Yes I'm in the Antarctic at the moment, have been here nearly 2 years and due to leave in March next year.
Thanks again for the info guys.
Mat.
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I just switched from a 1ds mk 1 to a 5d. The 1ds is a battle axe and can take a beating. I have hiked in very humid conditions with it and have even dropped the camera from several feet off the ground and it was fine.
The 5d has taken a little bit to get used to but it is an amazing camera. It is very compact and light weight and that creates a significant advantage when backpacking.
Dollar for dollar I do not think you will find a better full frame sensor on the market. I looked into the 1ds II (I also shoot landscapes) but I decided the image quality was not up to par for the money. It is also not a great time to buy a 1ds II right now as the 1ds III is rumored to be announced in the next few months.
If you have to get a camera now, the 1d mkIII might make sense as it has a very high ISO capability. Also, remember the advantage of landscape photography is that you can shoot tiles and stitch them together for higher resolution.
I will be going on a shoot in Asia for 2 weeks. I will let you know how the 5d holds up in the humidity.
-Steve
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May be off topic a bit, but Digital Outback has posted some raw files of same scene between the 5D and 1D MKIII (Also Fuji S5). I found these to be very interesting to see differences between the cameras (or to show how small the differences are IMHO).
http://www.outbackphoto.com/reviews/equipm.../1d3_5D_S5.html (http://www.outbackphoto.com/reviews/equipment/canon_1d_MkIII/1d3_5D_S5.html)
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Excellent info there Steven, it's always good to hear how gear works out and about, will wait to hear how you get on in Asia. After I leave here I'm planning a year of travelling to the most remote spots I can find around the world to photograph, I've deserved it after nearly 3 years down here! Thanks again for your experiences.
Cheers for the link there trigeek, will download the files and have a look.
Mat.
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Mat,
I hope F308 MAN (http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&t=415006) doesn't get to see these replies
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I'm sure he won't mind Andy! I have more opinions to get yet, when I'm planning on spending up to £10k on kit blind then I will make a decision based on as many views as possible, not just one. Lots share your opinion though hey!
Cheers.
Mat.
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Well, F308 needs to be more open minded! The 1DsMarkII came out in Sept of 04, is that correct? If so, it's old old old baby.
All IMO of course, but I know others share the same!
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How's this for a leftfield option?
Buy a 5D + grip (for the extra battery power you're almost definitely going to require), AND buy a medium format film kit.
The medium format film camera will require no batteries, save possibly for a light meter, will work even where a Canon 1D won't, and will give image results nigh on par with an uber expensive digital MF back.
Use Velvia 50 or alike, and you'll have outstandingly beautiful results which will definitely be large enough for any stock work you may wish to shoot.
If something breaks on a Hasselblad 500 system (or alike) is like lego, and so it needn't be 'game over' if something goes wrong.
You'll always have the 5D for the more instant results, and some say - I think Michael is one - that the results from the 5D are on par, if not better than the 1ds mkII.
Just providing another option...
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Now that's an idea Andy, I hadn't thought about going to medium format and film. I'd love to go medium format digital but all the backs I see have big vents in the side, none look like they will cope with serious environments. I looked at the H3D 31 as a real dream bit of kit but that doesn't look like it would cope with a tough life.
I'll look into the film gear, I think I'm already decided on the 5D with the grip, looking at the 70-200 also as I have a couple of nice wide angle lenses and that could stay on the 20D for now.
Thanks for the suggestions!
Mat.
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I will be going on a shoot in Asia for 2 weeks. I will let you know how the 5d holds up in the humidity.
-Steve
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Steve,
Wouldn't expect any problems... I spent a week in SE Asia shortly after acquiring my 5D: never missed a beat.
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My 5D has been all round S E Asia and I've not once had a problem, even when in Bangkok at its most humid.
The 5D is a real peach of a camera, you really can't go wrong BUT I think there's a significant chance a new 5D will be released in the next few months.
On the flip side, the current 5D is at a price which is a real bargain right now.
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Blimey, is no where safe from PHers?
I seem to remember reading somewhere here that even some 1dsIIs failed on the Antarctic trip earlier this year, so maybe it's not that bullet proof reliable in extremes.
Phase backs don't have slits in the side but unless you can insulate them I would forget them as they only operate down to 0 degrees.
For value, I would go for the 5D. The 1DIII won't be far behind the 5D for image quality and the 14bit with optional highlight tone priority might be interesting for keeping detail in snow and ice. The smaller sensor also means increased depth of field, so a possible slight advantage for landscapes. However, I wouldn't go for one until they have sorted out the focus issues.
If you're enthusiastic enough, the medium film Idea is interesting. Just replaces problems of batteries etc with problems of snapping, brittle film.
Cheers
Paul
(aka Bacardi on PH)
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I have both a 5D and a 1DsMk2.
If I had no camera at all would I buy the 1DsMk2 right now ? NO
Now as I have both, would you sekk your 1DsMk2 and get a second 5D ? NO
Why ? Because I love the 1DsMk2 and it is a fantastic camera, yes ISO is a little better on the 5D side, but small details are better on the 1DsMk2, Yes you have to know how to bring it out, but it is there.
So in the end I will happy use both until I get MY 1DsMk3, AND I REALLY HOPE IT'S STILL THISSSSSS YEAR. (Thanks canon)
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Phers are everywhere Paul!
The cold is an issue with film, last year a few brought film cameras down and had problems with snapping film when winding on after being outside for a while.
I've decided I will wait until the last minute, early October and see what is available then. I really want a 1ds 3, big files, full frame and all the latest technology but seriously doubt that will come along before I have to buy. Failing that I'll go for the 5d for the journey home from here and look again at what Canon have released in May time when I get home.
Thanks for your post too Christopher, I understand what you are saying, no doubt it's a superb camera but maybe now there are cameras that do things better.
Thanks again to everyone who's replied.
Mat.
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My 5D has been all round S E Asia and I've not once had a problem, even when in Bangkok at its most humid.
The 5D is a real peach of a camera, you really can't go wrong BUT I think there's a significant chance a new 5D will be released in the next few months.
On the flip side, the current 5D is at a price which is a real bargain right now.
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Actually, I think there is a significant chance that Canon has a new 30d, 5d, and 1dsMk2 in the works.
Reason? Technology curve, plain and simple. I just think the timing is there. I would bet by PMA all 3 have been replaced.
Personally I have a 5d, 1dsMk2, and a H1/P45 combination. I use all three, depending on the travel, shoot type, etc. I still feel the 1dsMk2 is a better camera than the 5D and I feel I can get better images from it. Then again, I've used it a lot more and I'm used to it so it may have nothing to do with the actual body. The 5D is more a walk around camera for me ... a 5d with a 70-300DO lens is one sweet combination for size, weight, image quality and flexibilty.
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The 1DsII is an amazing machine, with not only all the resolution you'd expect from a 17 mp camera, but very good dynamic range (I'd say about an extra stop compared to a range of other Canon and Nikon DSLRs I've used). Note that my comparison cameras do NOT include any of the Fuji SuperCCD models, nor the 5D. With the autofocus problems the 1D III has had (I'd assume the 1DsIII will either have similar issues, or be delayed), I'm all the happier with my 1DsII (which I bought this April). The 1DsII can print 20x30 easily, in a fine-art landscape application (so more than that doing anything less detail intensive).
There are three problems with the 1DsII... It's big, it's heavy, and it's expensive. There's no denying that it is all three of these things, or that the 5d is not as bad in any of those respects. On the other hand, the 5D is nowhere near as well built as the 1DsII. The 1DsII is the best-built camera out there (along with the other 1 series Canons and possibly the pro Nikons), which I would imagine is important for someone working in Antarctica. In a harsh environment, I'd take a 1DsII over a 5D in a millisecond. The only caveat in a very cold place is the NiMH battery pack, which is less optimal than a lithium ion pack in the cold (get an extra and store it inside your clothes).
Unless there is something specific you want that the 1DsII doesn't offer, I recommend it highly, not least because it's an incredibly well-proven camera that won't have any new-camera teething troubles. On the other hand, you might want to wait until right before you leave (give yourself time to test it before you go), to see if the 1DsIII will come out and drive the price of the II down.
-Dan
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Cheers Dan.
I pretty much have got to the same conclusions you have, if the 20d hadn't been so brilliant down here then I would have gone for the 1DS straight away but truth is in real life daily situations at below -40 the 20D has never had a problem, batteries of course are an issue but I have a couple of spares and always have at least 1 at body temperature. I've come to the same conclusions, wait for the last minute and have the 5D at the least if the 1DS3 hasn't been released.
I tend to agree with you Wayne, seems as though an update is due for the 5D, with luck it will happen before October which is the last chance I will have to buy.
Thanks again guys.
Mat.
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The 1DsII is an amazing machine, with not only all the resolution you'd expect from a 17 mp camera, but very good dynamic range (I'd say about an extra stop compared to a range of other Canon and Nikon DSLRs I've used). Note that my comparison cameras do NOT include any of the Fuji SuperCCD models, nor the 5D. With the autofocus problems the 1D III has had (I'd assume the 1DsIII will either have similar issues, or be delayed), I'm all the happier with my 1DsII (which I bought this April). The 1DsII can print 20x30 easily, in a fine-art landscape application (so more than that doing anything less detail intensive).
There are three problems with the 1DsII... It's big, it's heavy, and it's expensive. There's no denying that it is all three of these things, or that the 5d is not as bad in any of those respects. On the other hand, the 5D is nowhere near as well built as the 1DsII. The 1DsII is the best-built camera out there (along with the other 1 series Canons and possibly the pro Nikons), which I would imagine is important for someone working in Antarctica. In a harsh environment, I'd take a 1DsII over a 5D in a millisecond. The only caveat in a very cold place is the NiMH battery pack, which is less optimal than a lithium ion pack in the cold (get an extra and store it inside your clothes).
Unless there is something specific you want that the 1DsII doesn't offer, I recommend it highly, not least because it's an incredibly well-proven camera that won't have any new-camera teething troubles. On the other hand, you might want to wait until right before you leave (give yourself time to test it before you go), to see if the 1DsIII will come out and drive the price of the II down.
-Dan
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I completely agree - but DR and sharpness seems to depend a lot on what RAW converter used. I have just been playing with The new ACR and while functionality is great and speed something else, disappointingly it smears fine detail , clips highlights ( no matter how I adjust the sliders ) and doesn't deliver the lovely colour and detail from the 1ds2 that seems to come straight out of C1 pro or LE for me ( I leave the sharpness and noise reduction alone there - ironically its better to do any of that in photoshop) - a lot slower way of working but the results are superb. I find most of the same issues with the Canon software as ACR.
While I don' t own the 5D( but do own the 1ds2) , I have done a few comparisons and find the two to be almost indistinguishable as far as file quality is concerned, with the 1ds2 resolving a little more detail but only with the best prime lenses and solidly locked off on a tripod( for the most part I see little real advantage gained in the extra few MP) The 5D may or may not have a little more DR but it wouldn't be surprising given the slightly larger pixel size.
I do have a Imacon 132c to compare and also have found Moire in fabric and landscape - and then the flexcolour noise reduction seems to take care of ninety five percent of it.
The colour depth and tonal range of 16 bit capture ( not to mention the sharpness due to lack of AA filter) exceed the 1ds2 - by a considerable margin, particularly in shadow detail. But the flexibility and speed of the 1ds2 compared to MF is another issue entirely.
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I just returned from Asia for two weeks of shooting. I shot roughly seven thousand photos (80 gb) exclusively with the 5d and it far exceeded my expectations. I used to shoot with a 1ds Mk1 and though I think it has a superior user interface, I am finally getting accustomed to the 5d.
I think the 5d's lightweight offers a HUGE advantage over the 1ds series. I was hiking off trail and climbing rock formations in extremely humid weather and that would have been very difficult to do with the 1ds. The weather sealing was not an issue for me in this climate (I also shot in mild rain). I did have one sigma lens fail due to the extreme heat.
The battery efficiency was also amazing on this camera. I could shoot all day and review images on the lcd without changing batteries once. The batteries are lightweight and very cheap.
The few shortsides I ran into were when doing timelapse photography. The limited metering system of the 5d created a fair amount of flickering compared to my old 1ds. Also, shooting in jpeg is worthless on this camera (I tend to shoot in jpeg for timelapse sequences) as there is a significant amount of detail lost compared to raw.
This is a very compact camera that offers a lot of bang for the buck. If your landscape work requires backpacking or hiking, I would highly recommend this camera over the 1ds2.
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i am a commercial shooter too, shooting with a 5d. never did i get a single complaint about not having enough resolution on my files. 16MP of the 1ds only imcreases filesizes in my opinion, not detail. and if you are used to the 20d ergonomics, using a 5d is not nuch of a difference, but you will have to adapt a lot to the 1ds.
after my 1ds mk1 broke i had to choose between one 1dsmk2 or two 5ds and i never looked back.
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Mat,
I hope F308 MAN (http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&t=415006) doesn't get to see these replies
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.....
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We've been rumbled!