Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: keith_cooper on July 13, 2007, 09:26:34 am
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I was just sent some info on a new range of wide printers from Epson in September. The 4880/7880/9880/11880 (last is 64") will have a reformulated ink set (better gamut) and the option of a technician fitted spectrophotometer ($1500)
I've put the info and links on a page (http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/printers/epson-wide-format.html) if anyone is curious...
If anyone has any comment/confirmation I'd be curious to know, since I'm looking forward to updating my 9600 to a printer that economically lets me use Pk and Mk. I've recently had a 3800 on loan from Epson UK for a review (http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/reviews/printer/epson_sp_3800.html) and was quite taken with its image quality improvements over the 9600.
bye for now, Keith Cooper
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Interesting rumor and it does have the effect of freezing printer purchases in favor of waiting for the next gen Epson.
Still, until there are real details its just fun speculation.
I see no mention of a gloss enhancer which is a feature I really like on my HP Z3100
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the printers are EXACTLLY the smae as the current lineup, except for a different magenta ink..... You CANT put the new ink in the older models, epson screws everybody AGAIN!
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I have seen some prints form the new Epson and they are stunning. Also seen some full colour B&W prints with no evidence whatsoever of bronzing or banding.
There were print comparisons from a z3100 out of the box and the Epson out of the box and there was no comparison between the colour rendition with Epson ahead by miles especially in the red and blues areas. If my z3100 produced anything close to the new Epson I would have nothing to complain about.
From the prints I have seen I would say it is highly likely that Epson have changed more than just the magenta ink.
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the printers are EXACTLLY the smae as the current lineup, except for a different magenta ink..... You CANT put the new ink in the older models, epson screws everybody AGAIN!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128043\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yup. An optional 'technician installed' spectro. Ummm...
I use printshield on all my prints so the gloss enhancer cart will probably go stale on me. The driver defaults to it alot but I only used it once in econo mode by mistake.
I want to try it on pictorico glossy film though. Maybe a good enhancement there.
If Epson stumbles on their next release HP has a very good chance of taking over the fine art printing buisness!
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Yup. An optional 'technician installed' spectro. Ummm...
I use printshield on all my prints so the gloss enhancer cart will probably go stale on me. The driver defaults to it alot but I only used it once in econo mode by mistake.
I want to try it on pictorico glossy film though. Maybe a good enhancement there.
If Epson stumbles on their next release HP has a very good chance of taking over the fine art printing buisness!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128048\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
If they let you put in BK and PK at the same time and it works without a lot of ink waste, than it will be great. Sorry but HP messed up bad with the Z series ....
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If they let you put in BK and PK at the same time and it works without a lot of ink waste, than it will be great. Sorry but HP messed up bad with the Z series ....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128122\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm not following... how did HP mess up with PK and MK??
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I'm not following... how did HP mess up with PK and MK??
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128129\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
PK and MK was on the x800 series on Epson. You are right PK and MK are probably the only two things HP did not mess up...
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Epson didn't lose my business because of PK and MK. Epson lost my business because of clogs, clogs, and more...clogs. And non replaceable printheads. And terrible tech support.
Did I mention clogs? It almost didn't matter how good the prints were, because every couple of days one would lose a print to banding and clogging. And then spend time running cleaning cycles and praying through every big print that the print wasn't ruined by banding / clogging.
If Epson can fix the cloggy probs and the tech support issues, I may give them another shot in a few years, but they really shouldn't hold their breath. Fool me once, fool me twice...you know the story.
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The two versions of this new range: CMYKCMYK version and the 8 ink version suggests there are only 8 heads and a PK>MK>PK ink switch like the 3800. This switch on the 3800 takes 3 ML on average. Say 70 switches for one 220 ml cart (it probably has bigger carts). 3 minutes on the MK>PK switch, you do not want matte ink on gloss paper. I also wonder whether there still are the 180 nozzles per channel on the heads like there were on the 10000-10600-9800 models or 360 nozzles as announced for new heads in development some time ago. Speed depends much on that. I doubt that they introduce nozzle replacement as found in HP and Canon models, the nozzle price is just too high on the piëzo heads.
If all the possible cons mentioned here are not taken out I'm not interested, whether there is an optional spectro aboard or not. I wonder too whether they will have calibration on the models that do not have a spectro implanted, I find the calibration much more interesting on the HP models than the profiling part. The B9180 and Canon's 5100-6100 may well be what users actually need in RGB profiled printer color management. Printer profiles delivered by the printer manufacturer + third party paper manufacturers combined with a calibration feature should cover 90% of normal users needs and the remaining 10% usually can only be covered by a RIP that allows the creations of extra media/ink settings.
Ernst Dinkla
www.pigment-print.com
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... I also wonder whether there still are the 180 nozzles per channel on the heads like there were on the 10000-10600-9800 models or 360 nozzles as announced for new heads in development some time ago. [{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=128192\")
The info I saw at the end of May said "360 nozzles per ink, 9 lines on 1 inch wide head for nine inks" note the '9 lines' suggesting the 3800 approach
The original SCP release has been found in Google's cache :-) - not much extra info, but they did use a picture of a 10600 in the corner (well if it is the new printer, they must have decided to go for a 'classic' look ;-)
I also had a comment suggesting that next Tuesday should see some news (this was the date suggested to me back in May)
As ever I've put all the snippets of info on the [a href=\"http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/printers/epson-wide-format.html]"rumours page"[/url] :-)
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Epson UK seem to have announced the new printers (although there's nothing yet on their site, strange...) if you believe the info given below:
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=18263 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=18263)
No word about spectro option, co-existence of M/G K inks or backward compatibility of the new inkset (seems only difference is in the magenta inks) with the recent 3800.
Also no word about the rumored 64" printer.
Also strange seems that they mention pressurised cartridges for the 2 larger ones but not for the 4880. I believe the 3800 has pressurised cartridges.
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the printers are EXACTLLY the smae as the current lineup, except for a different magenta ink..... You CANT put the new ink in the older models, epson screws everybody AGAIN!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128043\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You don't know that as a fact so before you go slamming Eposn, based on all things a rumor, you might want to considering holding back the flames.
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Well, the photo of the 4880 with the press release looks exactly the same pretty much as the 4800, and we can clearly see just eight installed cartridges through the translucent covers. Which would mean that you still have to swap MK and PK. The new magenta inks will be usable in the new models only, I should imagine, because the drivers (or RIP) will have to be different to suit. All of which will leave the 3800 (which many of us thought would be a model for the future) curiously out on a limb . . .
John
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Well, the photo of the 4880 with the press release looks exactly the same pretty much as the 4800, and we can clearly see just eight installed cartridges through the translucent covers. Which would mean that you still have to swap MK and PK. The new magenta inks will be usable in the new models only, I should imagine, because the drivers (or RIP) will have to be different to suit. All of which will leave the 3800 (which many of us thought would be a model for the future) curiously out on a limb . . .
John
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128616\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm pretty sure the photos are not part of the press release but photoblogger has added pictures of the old machines just to enhance their page...
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You don't know that as a fact so before you go slamming Eposn, based on all things a rumor, you might want to considering holding back the flames.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128615\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
If we take the UK press release at face value, we can be pretty sure of at least 3 important changes:
1. Different ink set (vivid magentas)
2. Different heads
3. Different dithering engines (firmware)
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If we take the UK press release at face value, we can be pretty sure of at least 3 important changes:
I would suggest you not take it at face value!
At such a point in time when NDA's are up, products are announced, we can talk again. But I find it frustrating the people read rumors, then get all pissed off about what they read as if its written in stone. Meanwhile, those that know, keep quiet. Those that don't know make up stuff and should be ignored.
Of course, if you want to read fiction, even a mix of fact and fiction and whip yourself into a frenzy, knock yourself out.
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It's on the Epson site in Germany:
http://www.epson-presse.de/index.php?id=196&no_cache=1 (http://www.epson-presse.de/index.php?id=196&no_cache=1)
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I would suggest you not take it at face value!
At such a point in time when NDA's are up, products are announced, we can talk again. But I find it frustrating the people read rumors, then get all pissed off about what they read as if its written in stone. Meanwhile, those that know, keep quiet. Those that don't know make up stuff and should be ignored.
Of course, if you want to read fiction, even a mix of fact and fiction and whip yourself into a frenzy, knock yourself out.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128647\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Do you have reason to believe that the aforementioned press release in not genuine and, thus, a rumour? Could you please share this reason with us?
The press release being a fake, and you being certain about this, would be the only way to justify your words (not your attitude).
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If we take the UK press release at face value, we can be pretty sure of at least 3 important changes:
1. Different ink set (vivid magentas)
2. Different heads
3. Different dithering engines (firmware)
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=128620\")
Remember that in the change from 9600>9800 UC>K3 there was also a change on the magentas, the magenta shifted to red and the ink became more transparent. Wonder whether it is gone back this time.
The 3800 still has 180 nozzles per head and in the photographyblog URL I see no mention of the nozzle quantity in the three x880 models nor any claim of more speed. It wouldn't surprise me if the 360 nozzles per head is a feature for the 64"model to face the competition's iPF9000 and Z6100 speed. Whether that is enough is the question.
The 3800 already had improved dithering and I guess it is a replica of that but development goes on of course.
[a href=\"http://www.inkjetart.com/3800/index.html]http://www.inkjetart.com/3800/index.html[/url] shows the difference between the 3800 and 4800 dithering. Shifting the use of the droplet range to the smaller droplets and so it is closer to the way the HP's and Canon's lay down ink.
I doubt it is the 4880 we see there. But a twin cart like the old 5000 is possible too. In that case if there's a black ink switch mechanism you can be certain that half the MK ink can be thrown away after the PK side if empty. Unlikely that Epson will spit in the customer's face again so better forget that suggestion.
I see something about improved paper cutting sequence. Doesn't sound like a rotary cutter (hardware improvement) but more like a straight cut from left to right. The rotary cutters of the competition do their work up to the 300 grams paper and last longer than what we have been used to on Epsons.
Then the prices: the pound is now 2$ but US prices will be lower. Quoted price without VAT is like today's UK Z3100 streetprice without VAT. The Canon 44" is cheaper.
Edit,
The German information is 99% like Photographyblog with one exception I see 8 cartridges mentioned on the German page and 9 on the Photographyblog. Whether that means on the printer itself and then no black ink switch ? I start to wonder whether not only the magenta is back to the 9600 hue but the total inkset is like the 4000 on all machines, dropping the extra grey ink of the K3 range. I know some happy 4000 users so why not. ? Many UC users expected that solution before the 9800 etc appeared.
Ernst Dinkla
try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/)
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Do you have reason to believe that the aforementioned press release in not genuine and, thus, a rumour? Could you please share this reason with us?
The press release being a fake, and you being certain about this, would be the only way to justify your words (not your attitude).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128650\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No, I can't without getting into trouble which I don't plan to do.
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No, I can't without getting into trouble which I don't plan to do.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128657\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Let me get this right. You 're implying that this press release is not genuine but you can't support it due to NDA?
Or is it just that the press release might not be everything that Epson is planning to announce and there's more coming (like the 64" for example)?
If the press release is the genuine thing (regardless if there's more coming at some point), I think everybody is entitled to comment on it without being accused of feeding on rumours.
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Let me get this right. You 're implying that this press release is not genuine but you can't support it due to NDA?
Or is it just that the press release might not be everything that Epson is planning to announce and there's more coming (like the 64" for example)?
If the press release is the genuine thing (regardless if there's more coming at some point), I think everybody is entitled to comment on it without being accused of feeding on rumours.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128659\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I said nothing other than people who read stuff, get pissed off when the validity of the info is based on rumor should calm the frig down.
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BTW, there is a new press release on the same site announcing the 11880 64 incher.
http://www.photographyblog.com/index.php/w...format_printer/ (http://www.photographyblog.com/index.php/weblog/comments/epson_11880_64_large_format_printer/)
Here is where the 360dpi native density is announced. Also there's mention of automatic matte/glossy black ink swap.
Any reasonable person would assume that the 3 smaller printers don't have either of these features.
So we have: 3800 (auto swap), 4880 7880 9880 (no auto swap), 11880 (360dpi heads, auto swap).
Sounds a bit weird...
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You don't know that as a fact so before you go slamming Eposn, based on all things a rumor, you might want to considering holding back the flames.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128615\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
settle down chief, sorry if you didn't like the words I used.
I am repeating what two of the bigger software rip companies have told me. They "should" be in the know..... Guess we will see soon enough
C
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BTW, there is a new press release on the same site announcing the 11880 64 incher.
http://www.photographyblog.com/index.php/w...format_printer/ (http://www.photographyblog.com/index.php/weblog/comments/epson_11880_64_large_format_printer/)
Here is where the 360dpi native density is announced. Also there's mention of automatic matte/glossy black ink swap.
Any reasonable person would assume that the 3 smaller printers don't have either of these features.
So we have: 3800 (auto swap), 4880 7880 9880 (no auto swap), 11880 (360dpi heads, auto swap).
Sounds a bit weird...
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=128664\")
Which confirms my guess that the 11880 has the new 360 nozzles per channel head and most likely the smaller models including the 9880 do not have it, otherwise they should have mentioned it on the German site.
Edit:
>>
[a href=\"http://www.epson-presse.de/index.php?id=196&no_cache=1&backPID=196&tt_news=4395]http://www.epson-presse.de/index.php?id=19...96&tt_news=4395[/url]
http://www.dimagemaker.com/article.php?articleID=1045 (http://www.dimagemaker.com/article.php?articleID=1045)
The German page shows the 11880 head with 5 banks and 9 channels of 360 nozzles each. That allows active matt + gloss black on the 11880, no need for the 3800 switch, no ink loss either. Wonder why they didn't add the extra nozzle row for gloss enhancer, the gloss must be good enough in their opinion.
The Australian page confirms active gloss and matt black: nine active cartridges.
More on the other models:
http://www.dimagemaker.com/article.php?articleID=1044 (http://www.dimagemaker.com/article.php?articleID=1044)
http://www.dimagemaker.com/article.php?articleID=1046 (http://www.dimagemaker.com/article.php?articleID=1046)
PK/MK change only with the cartridge possible I'm afraid. <<
The basics are that nozzles in piëzo technology are more expensive and harder to multiply over the years of development than the simple thermohead concept is, especially when the last are made with silicon chip manufacturing technology. The advantage of variable droplet sizes that are easier to create in piëzoheads than in thermo heads is no longer playing a role as new dithering algorithms fare well with smaller single sized droplets. I predicted some time ago that it was not likely that Epson would go for more ink channels and also that it would be difficult for Epson to increase the nozzle quantity per channel as fast as the thermo head manufacturers can. What is left is the droplet creation frequency but thermo heads have made fast progress there and it is hard to compensate 3x to 6x the number of nozzles with just frequency.
Remains the fact that Epson has access to or creates very good inks.
Ernst Dinkla
try: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/ (http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/)
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Epson Australia site link -
http://www.epson.com.au/prographics/newpro...s/index.asp#800 (http://www.epson.com.au/prographics/newproducts/index.asp#800)
Julie
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I really don't see the problem, NDA ...
It's pretty simple...
New Epson printers only have 8 inks. That's it there will be no PK, MK change.
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I really don't see the problem, NDA ...
It's pretty simple...
New Epson printers only have 8 inks. That's it there will be no PK, MK change.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128725\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I looked at the Epson Australia page. If they don't provide quite seemless MK/PK swapping in these new models I think they would have a serious commercial problem on their hands. Only studios needing and running several printers at a time would be interested. Did it occur to anyone, however, that if the new model has a reformulated magenta, perhaps the idea is that they will equip these new models with one magenta instead of two, and use the extra slot for the other black?
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Did it occur to anyone, however, that if the new model has a reformulated magenta, perhaps the idea is that they will equip these new models with one magenta instead of two, and use the extra slot for the other black?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128734\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well, that is indeed possible, but I would think that they'd advertise this more clearly if this were the case...
Let's hope that your guess is correct.
Regards,
Bernard
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Well, that is indeed possible, but I would think that they'd advertise this more clearly if this were the case...
Let's hope that your guess is correct.
Regards,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128751\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes indeed "let's hope". As for advertising, Epson America has yet to say anything on their US website about these models. It is obviously early days. However, if the 4800 replacement does not resolve the ink switching problem I shall not be buying one.
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Well, somehow we all missed this, but our very own MR has actually seen the new printers (see in the What's New section of LL). I quote -
"Epson has several new printers coming, and showed them to a group of journalists in New York last week, which I attended. These were not supposed to be announced until August 13th – lost of time to write-up a full report.
Well, as happens all too frequently these days, someone at Epson (their UK office, this time) jumped the gun and pre-announced. You can read all about the new printers on PhotographyBlog. (Canon's pre-release specialists are their French subsidiary. What is it with European subs and secrets?)
I may still write something about the new printers, but in the meantime I'll simply add that the new Vivid Megenta ink really does visibly increase colour saturation and dMax, based on sample prints which I was shown.
As to whether it's worth upgrading from a 4800, 7800, 9800 to a 4880, 7880, 9880, I'd have to say no. And as for what's coming next from Epson, I will respect the NDA that I've signed and will have more to say on that next month."
It seems that if MR is saying "don't bother upgrading", then it is pretty certain that the smaller printers do not support live MK/PK swapping, as many of us have already inferred. A strange product upgrade from Epson which seems to ignore the clear challenges in the past year from HP and Canon.
John
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....However, if the 4800 replacement does not resolve the ink switching problem I shall not be buying one.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128808\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm not buying another one either...
I hope Andrew Rodney is correct and this leaked info is wrong.
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I was wondering what had happened about the optional embedded Spectro I'd heard mentioned - I was quite prepared to set it aside in the old rumours collection, but the comment at the end of MR's piece about NDAs makes me wonder ;-)
As to his other comments about European 'release dates' I heard July 17th mentioned as an 'official date' back in May...
Anyway, I'll keep updating the 11880 info page (http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/printers/epson-wide-format.html) with any more snippets I get sent ;-)
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Epson Australia site link -
http://www.epson.com.au/prographics/newpro...s/index.asp#800 (http://www.epson.com.au/prographics/newproducts/index.asp#800)
Julie
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128713\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I see variable drop size technology, but no mention of minimum drop size. Are we finally going to have a large format printer with 1.5 pl capability or are these still 3.5 pl machines?
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I see variable drop size technology, but no mention of minimum drop size. Are we finally going to have a large format printer with 1.5 pl capability or are these still 3.5 pl machines?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128860\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Minimum droplet size will stay at 3.5 picoliter and is unlikely to get smaller on wide format printers. To cover the same square feet per hour with 1.5 picoliter droplets will ask for more nozzles or higher head frequencies. 2,25X There's a trend to use the available minimum droplet size in preference to the larger droplet sizes (or to make the larger droplet sizes smaller) to get smoother results but that's it. The HP models use only 4 or 6 picoliter, size is fixed per ink channel and the quality is still good.
Ernst Dinkla
www.pigment-print.com
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Minimum droplet size will stay at 3.5 picoliter and is unlikely to get smaller on wide format printers. To cover the same square feet per hour with 1.5 picoliter droplets will ask for more nozzles or higher head frequencies. 2,25X There's a trend to use the available minimum droplet size in preference to the larger droplet sizes (or to make the larger droplet sizes smaller) to get smoother results but that's it. The HP models use only 4 or 6 picoliter, size is fixed per ink channel and the quality is still good.
Ernst Dinkla
www.pigment-print.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128887\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Too bad. I was hoping for at least a 17 inch model with 1.5 pl drops to use with Paul's 3-MK workflow to make 16x20 inch prints. I'm using 3-MK with an Epson 1800 desktop and the 11x14 inch Eboni prints are outstanding. Best B&W I've seen from any process. I've tried larger prints with the Epson 4000, but the 3.5 pl drop just doesn't cut it for this printing process.
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Too bad. I was hoping for at least a 17 inch model with 1.5 pl drops to use with Paul's 3-MK workflow to make 16x20 inch prints. I'm using 3-MK with an Epson 1800 desktop and the 11x14 inch Eboni prints are outstanding. Best B&W I've seen from any process. I've tried larger prints with the Epson 4000, but the 3.5 pl drop just doesn't cut it for this printing process.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128891\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Black Only needs many nozzles (more heads) and the smallest droplets and the R800 + R1800 are then a good choice. Something I suggested about 3 years ago on the Digital B&W list. You will need another quad inkset on the larger machines and the available 3-4 grey inks in some standard inksets + the new "screening" of the droplets makes excellent prints. Grey profiles made with QTR improve the tonal range. There's quite a difference between a 4000 and a 3800 in print quality with the standard inks.
Ernst Dinkla
www.pigment-print.com
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There's quite a difference between a 4000 and a 3800 in print quality with the standard inks.
Ernst Dinkla
www.pigment-print.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128967\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
There's even a perceptible difference between 3800 and 4800 due to improved dithering, especially in HS and lower dpi printing. I expect that the x880 will be similar to the 3800 in that respect (improved inks not withstanding).
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Epson's Light Light Black and HP's gloss optimizer are for all intents and purposes almost the same.
Interesting rumor and it does have the effect of freezing printer purchases in favor of waiting for the next gen Epson.
Still, until there are real details its just fun speculation.
I see no mention of a gloss enhancer which is a feature I really like on my HP Z3100
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128035\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Epson's Light Light Black and HP's gloss optimizer are for all intents and purposes almost the same.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=129488\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
So it can be used all over the print :-)
Ernst Dinkla
www.pigment-print.com
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Epson's Light Light Black and HP's gloss optimizer are for all intents and purposes almost the same.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=129488\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You gotta be kidding, right?