Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: jhein on July 11, 2007, 11:08:30 am
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In the previous thread on this subject, there was much speculation on this seemingly random barrier. The reason why is simple to understand if you think like a computer geek and not a photographer.
A quick background note: My day job is as a computer engineer for the past 20 years. I own the Z3100 as an enthusiast who occasionally sells my work.
The length issue is based on the fact that the driver uses signed 16 bit integers to represent the max length of a print. An unsigned 16 bit integer can have a maximum value of 65536. Since computers start counting at 0 the real limit is 65535. A signed 16 bit integer can have the values ranging from -32767....+32767.
So using my calculator:
32767 pixels divided by 300 pixels/inch = 109.22 inches or rounding down to 108 inches
In Metric
32767 pixels divided by 118.11 pixels/centimeter = 277.68 centimeters
The real solution is as has been pointed out by others is for HP to update their driver. The workaround is to lower your printing resolution. Using 150 pixels/inch will double the length of your print assuming no other issues or bugs.
hope this helps
Jim
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In the previous thread on this subject, there was much speculation on this seemingly random barrier. The reason why is simple to understand if you think like a computer geek and not a photographer.
A quick background note: My day job is as a computer engineer for the past 20 years. I own the Z3100 as an enthusiast who occasionally sells my work.
The length issue is based on the fact that the driver uses signed 16 bit integers to represent the max length of a print. An unsigned 16 bit integer can have a maximum value of 65536. Since computers start counting at 0 the real limit is 65535. A signed 16 bit integer can have the values ranging from -32767....+32767.
So using my calculator:
32767 pixels divided by 300 pixels/inch = 109.22 inches or rounding down to 108 inches
In Metric
32767 pixels divided by 118.11 pixels/centimeter = 277.68 centimeters
The real solution is as has been pointed out by others is for HP to update their driver. The workaround is to lower your printing resolution. Using 150 pixels/inch will double the length of your print assuming no other issues or bugs.
hope this helps
Jim
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=127589\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks Jim,
You have a wqay of explaining making it clear and easily understandible. Since I now downsample the long prints that aproach 250cm it prints everytime at 150 ppi. The same image will not print at 300ppi. The images however are all less than 270cm . One thing is certain, it can only be a fault in the driver, but one that HP don't care to look into.
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Excellent, clear explanation, Jim. Thanks for sharing this. I'm ashamed to admit that I've spent 30 years in the computer industry (hardware and software) and didn't think of it in these terms.
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The real solution is as has been pointed out by others is for HP to update their driver. The workaround is to lower your printing resolution. Using 150 pixels/inch will double the length of your print assuming no other issues or bugs.
hope this helps
Jim
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=127589\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks Jim, but my print is already 150 ppi which lets you go to 277.68 so I guess there is another bug which would not surprise me. I also have a software background and all I can say is that if my engineers released the amount of buggy code that HP's do then either they would have been fired or we would have very annoyed customers.
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I also have a software background and all I can say is that if my engineers released the amount of buggy code that HP's do then either they would have been fired or we would have very annoyed customers.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=127668\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Its rarely the software engineers totally at fault. I suspect their test harness and procedures and more than likely their management.
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Its rarely the software engineers totally at fault. I suspect their test harness and procedures and more than likely their management.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=127672\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Test harness, I though that is what we are paying to do?
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Test harness, I though that is what we are paying to do?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=127674\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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In the previous thread on this subject, there was much speculation on this seemingly random barrier. The reason why is simple to understand if you think like a computer geek and not a photographer.
A quick background note: My day job is as a computer engineer for the past 20 years. I own the Z3100 as an enthusiast who occasionally sells my work.
The length issue is based on the fact that the driver uses signed 16 bit integers to represent the max length of a print. An unsigned 16 bit integer can have a maximum value of 65536. Since computers start counting at 0 the real limit is 65535. A signed 16 bit integer can have the values ranging from -32767....+32767.
So using my calculator:
32767 pixels divided by 300 pixels/inch = 109.22 inches or rounding down to 108 inches
In Metric
32767 pixels divided by 118.11 pixels/centimeter = 277.68 centimeters
The real solution is as has been pointed out by others is for HP to update their driver. The workaround is to lower your printing resolution. Using 150 pixels/inch will double the length of your print assuming no other issues or bugs.
hope this helps
Jim
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=127589\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
On page 58 of the Z3100 Quick Reference Guide, HP briefly covers this topic and offer a few suggestions. Their explaination seems to imply that it is not a printer driver issue, but a application one. In any case, good explaination.
David
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Hi All
Our company have recently aquired a Z3100 44 inch. We are fairly beginners at using this machine and on an attempt to print a banner 12 feet metres long @ 300dpi, the job in the print queue would delete itself. We are not software engineers but humble graphic designers. We were so frustrated and spent hours trying every permutaion in the printer menu to get this damn banner to print.
Are you saying that our printer won't print anything longer than 108 inches.
I did call the HP support line, they tell me I may have to upgrade to HP-GL2,and as a throw away line, "Oh yes we have had comments about printing banners over 8 feet in length have been a problem" There latest driver was supposed to cure that but it didn't.
In the end I had to reduce the banner to 8 feet in length and at 150 dpi, that seemed to work, But when you've got clients who want 12 feet and nothing shorter, what do you do?
Any Suggestions Guys.
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I'm not a graphics designer, I don't even play one on TV my question is to ask how you're printing. Are you printing from an application? If so, what application? I'm trying to figure out if this is an application or driver problem. If you're using vector graphics and printing from a vector graphics app it may lead us to thinking its a driver problem. If you're printing from an Adobe app.... well, I still think they're suspect.
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I'm not a graphics designer, I don't even play one on TV my question is to ask how you're printing. Are you printing from an application? If so, what application? I'm trying to figure out if this is an application or driver problem. If you're using vector graphics and printing from a vector graphics app it may lead us to thinking its a driver problem. If you're printing from an Adobe app.... well, I still think they're suspect.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=129052\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi
I'm trying to print from photoshop & illustrator CS2 and acrobat. I've printed off other items less than 8 feet with no problem, but go over it and it's a nightmare. I tend not use any other apps for printing other than adobe.
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Hi
I'm trying to print from photoshop & illustrator CS2 and acrobat. I've printed off other items less than 8 feet with no problem, but go over it and it's a nightmare. I tend not use any other apps for printing other than adobe.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=129065\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Does anyone know if upgrading to the GL2 will solve this problem?
cheers
Lije
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Does anyone know if upgrading to the GL2 will solve this problem?
cheers
Lije
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=129134\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
ImagePrint 7.0 availbale for Windows and MAC operating system will be available shortly(about 30 days) and will allow printing over 12 feet. I called today because i also own an HP Z3100 and want to print 10 foot images @ 300dpi. A technical support member told me that prints over 12 feet are able to be made using their ImagePrint 7.0 RIP.
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ImagePrint 7.0 availbale for Windows and MAC operating system will be available shortly(about 30 days) ...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146430\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
ahem...... we've been hearing that for months...
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A friend of mine had the exact same problem trying to print images longer than 108"' on his Epson 9800. He was told by Epson that Photoshop was the problem. Whether or not that is the problem I don't know. He now runs through a Colorbyte rip and can print over 108". I'm assuming a rip would solve this problem as well.
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I don't think upgrading to PLG will change print length. I had problems with max print length before, the only solution was or is to cut the doc res to 150 dpi. Not ideal , but all I can say that works.
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Does not QImage get around this? Alan
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Does not QImage get around this? Alan
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=147078\")
If you mean the "poster" "stitched tile" for single image print on roll there's the nasty habit of the Z3100 driver to keep the 5 mm margins between tiles that normally stitch with Qimage. Depending on the "margins lay-out" settings in the driver you end up with missing 10 mm image between tiles (becomes white) or 10 mm white added between tiles. Maybe borderless could solve that issue but that's gloss only and I think warping the conditions that much if you actually print matte or canvas isn't a solution. I have not yet finished the trials in between jobs but so far it isn't encouraging.
Edit: I have checked all the Z3100 driver choices to take out the white intersections with Qimage's poster - tile stitching feature but there's no solution.
Qimage usually could cope better than other Windows applications when long prints were needed, even without the poster tile function. For a single print page, so not in poster/stitched tile mode, there's a 500 inch limit in Qimage it seems as the print job goes on Print to File mode when longer jobs start processing. Still 5x the Z3100 limit and by that not the first one to deal with..
Edit: with a max print page length of 12,3 meter = 484 inch set in the driver I can print a 600 MB, 8 bit RGB, Tiff file of 99999 pixel length = 207 PPI input resolution through the Z3100 driver. It will print the full length (made a 2 meter paper loop that runs through several times) but the width is cropped to approx 21 cm = 8" for an unknown reason. Could be the memory in my system so I have to check whether using a lower input resolution may widen the resulting print page The 99999 pixel length is a Qimage limitation, Mike limited image input to 100K x 100K pixels. The 484 inches length is also a Qimage limitation. Anyway it is nice to know that it will run that length. Somthing to build on.
I think there are some solutions possible but it would have to be added/changed in the Z3100 driver. One way would be to add another margin choice that copes with stitched tile functions in Qimage, Illustrator, etc. Another one could be a stitched tile function in the driver itself. Or just let the driver really deliver the optimistic 91 meters choice in the page size menu.
Ernst Dinkla
try: [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]
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So using my calculator:
32767 pixels divided by 300 pixels/inch = 109.22 inches or rounding down to 108 inches
In Metric
32767 pixels divided by 118.11 pixels/centimeter = 277.68 centimeters
The real solution is as has been pointed out by others is for HP to update their driver. The workaround is to lower your printing resolution. Using 150 pixels/inch will double the length of your print assuming no other issues or bugs.
hope this helps
Jim
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=127589\")
As written in my last message I can get 12.3 meter length printed on the Z3100 with Qimage but the width gets cropped to something around 20 cm where Qimage says it should become 63 cm (for example). It doesn't matter what input PPI is used 207 PPI to 34 PPI it always results in the approx 20 cm crop and 12.3 M length. I really don't get it, there's no relation to PPI or width it should have. If I go below the 277 cm limit it will print the full width indicated, doesn't matter whether input is above or below 150 PPI. So there's more going on.
Ernst Dinkla
try: [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]
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I'm using Qimage with a Z3100ps printer and recently printed a 600dpi at 122x24 inch photograph (10-foot panorama with a one-inch border). The TIFF file is 1.96GB!
This is the longest print I've attempted. (I have no idea how the recipient will mount it...it was my donation to a local fund raising auction for a historical landmark building). So much for the pixel limit theory.
DC
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I'm using Qimage with a Z3100ps printer and recently printed a 600dpi at 122x24 inch photograph (10-foot panorama with a one-inch border). The TIFF file is 1.96GB!
This is the longest print I've attempted. (I have no idea how the recipient will mount it...it was my donation to a local fund raising auction for a historical landmark building). So much for the pixel limit theory.
DC
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=147671\")
Through the RIP I guess. If that length has been achieved with the normal driver it would be interesting as it would indicate different firmware without that 277 cm limit in the PS model.
With my Wasatch Softrip I can print longer too but not with the quality I get with Qimage + the Z3100 driver.
Ernst Dinkla
try: [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]
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Through the RIP I guess. If that length has been achieved with the normal driver it would be interesting as it would indicate different firmware without that 277 cm limit in the PS model.
With my Wasatch Softrip I can print longer too but not with the quality I get with Qimage + the Z3100 driver.
Ernst Dinkla
try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147767\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I guess that's the case, Ernst, as I have made 36" x 120" prints on my PS printer through Illustrator. Just a software quirk in the raster driver, I suppose, that prevents it.
-Ron H.
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I guess that's the case, Ernst, as I have made 36" x 120" prints on my PS printer through Illustrator. Just a software quirk in the raster driver, I suppose, that prevents it.
-Ron H.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=147855\")
Done more trials with Qimage, some Epson drivers, the Z3100 driver and the Canon iPF9000 driver. Meanwhile Qimage is upgraded to 25 meter = 1000" print length in normal mode so if a driver allows it and the system + OS can handle it there's hardly a limit but the roll length. If the driver has a banner choice next to roll and sheet you can also use the Poster-Tile Stitching method in Qimage which allows much longer prints on for example the Canon iPF9000 than the Canon driver limit of 3.3 meter allows. The same for older Epsons with a banner choice in the media menu.
Can somebody tell me whether there is a banner mode in the existing Z3100 driver/printer or a way to create a similar behaviour in roll handling by the driver/printer ? I have tried everything and I get 1 CM white intersections between the tiles Qimage sends to the driver. This way the normal Z3100 driver is limited to the discussed 108" length.
Is a banner choice added to the new firmware + driver ? Or is the practical length of the old driver increased in the new one to that of the PS model driver and 91 meter as promised in all driver menus becomes a reality now ?
Ernst Dinkla
try: [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]
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Done more trials with Qimage, some Epson drivers, the Z3100 driver and the Canon iPF9000 driver. Meanwhile Qimage is upgraded to 25 meter = 1000" print length in normal mode so if a driver allows it and the system + OS can handle it there's hardly a limit but the roll length. If the driver has a banner choice next to roll and sheet you can also use the Poster-Tile Stitching method in Qimage which allows much longer prints on for example the Canon iPF9000 than the Canon driver limit of 3.3 meter allows. The same for older Epsons with a banner choice in the media menu.
Can somebody tell me whether there is a banner mode in the existing Z3100 driver/printer or a way to create a similar behaviour in roll handling by the driver/printer ? I have tried everything and I get 1 CM white intersections between the tiles Qimage sends to the driver. This way the normal Z3100 driver is limited to the discussed 108" length.
Is a banner choice added to the new firmware + driver ? Or is the practical length of the old driver increased in the new one to that of the PS model driver and 91 meter as promised in all driver menus becomes a reality now ?
Ernst Dinkla
try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/)
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=149533\")
The new 06 00 00-8 firmware + new driver isn't changing anything on this limitation.
It looks like you need the Z3100 PS RIP model or a third party RIP to get over the 108" length. As the Z3100 doesn't know a banner mode like the Canon and Epson wide formats there's no chance to overcome that limit with the poster/tile method of Qimage.
The balance between the plain Z3100 and the Z3100PS tilts to the last even more now, APS included, longer print lengths in both PS RIP and driver mode, and a RIP that works together with the integrated calibration which isn't possible with my Wasatch SoftRip. Other RIPs mat possibly be more integrated than mine but as I understand it now IP will not include Z3100 support at all. Pity that there is no upgrade path from the plain Z3100 to the Z3100PS model.
Ernst Dinkla
try: [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]
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Pity that there is no upgrade path from the plain Z3100 to the Z3100PS model.
Ernst Dinkla
Ernst-
You should try to lobby HP for that if you are interested, since I don't think there would be anything more involved than licensing you the intellectual property for the PSD. I don't think that there is a hardware component involved, is there?
-Ron H.
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Ernst-
You should try to lobby HP for that if you are interested, since I don't think there would be anything more involved than licensing you the intellectual property for the PSD. I don't think that there is a hardware component involved, is there?
-Ron H.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=150268\")
I'll add to that. Ernst I think your comments on the print length should be added to this [a href=\"http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=20524]thread.[/url]
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The new 06 00 00-8 firmware + new driver isn't changing anything on this limitation.
It looks like you need the Z3100 PS RIP model or a third party RIP to get over the 108" length. As the Z3100 doesn't know a banner mode like the Canon and Epson wide formats there's no chance to overcome that limit with the poster/tile method of Qimage.
The balance between the plain Z3100 and the Z3100PS tilts to the last even more now, APS included, longer print lengths in both PS RIP and driver mode, and a RIP that works together with the integrated calibration which isn't possible with my Wasatch SoftRip. Other RIPs mat possibly be more integrated than mine but as I understand it now IP will not include Z3100 support at all. Pity that there is no upgrade path from the plain Z3100 to the Z3100PS model.
Ernst Dinkla
try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/)
The last driver and/or firmware upgrade 07 00 etc. made a 500 mm longer length available on my Z3100 non-PS model. It can print up to 3269 mm 128.7 inch right now.
The issue with Qimage Poster/Tiles method isn't solved, the Z3100 driver doesn't know a true banner mode and will still leave 10 mm white at the place where it should stitch the tiles seamless.
Ernst Dinkla
Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/)
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I know this would be a kludge of a fix, but what about chopping a long image into printable chunks, NOT cutting the paper, then using the up/down arrows to move the paper back into the printer just the right amount so that the next chunk starts printing where the previous one left off? It would take a bit of trial and error to find the right spot, (assuming that the up/down arrows allow small enough movements that are repeatable), but once you have it figured out, it should work each time.
My original thought was to see if there was some way to send a command to the printer to move the paper backwards a set amount to match what it advances, like the old ESC commands back in the DOS days. If that were possible, then after printing the first chunk, you would issue the command and then print the next chunk.
Mark
www.pinnacle-vr.com
www.northernlight.net
www.360cities.net
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I know this would be a kludge of a fix, but what about chopping a long image into printable chunks, NOT cutting the paper, then using the up/down arrows to move the paper back into the printer just the right amount so that the next chunk starts printing where the previous one left off? It would take a bit of trial and error to find the right spot, (assuming that the up/down arrows allow small enough movements that are repeatable), but once you have it figured out, it should work each time.
My original thought was to see if there was some way to send a command to the printer to move the paper backwards a set amount to match what it advances, like the old ESC commands back in the DOS days. If that were possible, then after printing the first chunk, you would issue the command and then print the next chunk.
Mark
www.pinnacle-vr.com
www.northernlight.net
www.360cities.net
Not my cup of tea.
However Matt Nolan writes the following on the Qimage list and that is promising:
>>>Success! Using the Z3100 HPGL2 driver I was able to print out a
3'x17' panorama using Qimage and it looks great. The driver offers a
maximum of 91 meters -- I didnt test it, but I suspect it may be
correct.
The next thing I want to test is Mike's suggestion of cutting up
gigapixel images in photoshop and then reassembling them in Qimage as
separate images printed on the same page. This is different than the
banner trick where Qimage cuts the image and tries to avoid the page
break (which doesnt work with the Z3100). So if this new technique
works, I dont see that there is anything standing in the way of
printing a 10,000 x 100,000 gigapixel image, or even larger, using
Qimage.<<<
Ernst Dinkla
Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/)
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Is there any news on this topic with the new drivers?
Mark
www.northernlight.net
www.virtual-travels.com
www.pinnacle-vr.com
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On the Z3200-PS I have no length limit problems. There is no reason for me to explore what the Z3100 can do, I might be one or two firmware upgrades behind. As written the optional HPGL-2 driver solved that issue for other owners.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla
Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html
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I think I found the thread you are referring to. To summarize, getting the HP GL-2 upgrade kit would allow me to break the 10 foot barrier on my Z3100. I wouldn't use that driver for printing, staying with the current driver that I now use, but the upgrade kit allows that driver to overcome the length limit. Is that correct? From what I've seen, the upgrade kit is around $350.
Thanks,
Mark
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Yes, that is the idea. You better contact Matt Nolan to see whether that has been a bullet proof solution over the last year.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla
New: Spectral plots of +220 inkjet papers:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm