Luminous Landscape Forum
Site & Board Matters => About This Site => Topic started by: Rob C on July 07, 2007, 09:48:07 am
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This isn´t quite photography, but it does reflect on what gets written on this and other sites.
I have a problem with the abuse of basic English. For example, the use of u as an abbreviation of you comes to mind. This is not to condemn people who are not native English speakers - I applaud their spirit in writing in at all - but its use (along with other such texting-inspired nonsense) by people who really should know better. A forum such as this allows all the time in the world in which to sit down, compose one´s thoughts and then put them down; one even gets further chances to correct something which might feel flawed.
In no way am I saying that only those with a degree in the language should write - that would exclude me for a start - but surely it is just reflective of a sloppy mind when even the use of I rather than i is considered too much effort!
Spelling, or the associated problems of that thing, has long haunted me and as such I can find sympathy in my heart for others so cursed; once a word gets into my personal Doubts folder, it´s there for keeps. But laziness is something else.
Does anybody else share this sensitivity to intentional abuse?
Ciao - Rob C
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What you are saying could be summarised in the phrase uttered by Commander/Admiral Norrington at the end of Pirates of the Caribbean I which was to the effect (ad libbing as I don't have the exact text):
"I would expect that any man who shows such care and devotion in his professional life would also show such qualities in his private one".
The way we present ourselves is how we are perceived and, as you point out, taking liberties with language may be perceived differently by different people.
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Thank you for raising that point, Rob. I am in complete agreement. I will personally give some leeway to posters who are clearly not native English speakers, but I admit that I tend to lower my estimate of the value of the content of any post that is sloppily written.
So many of us seem to by striving for precision and control of photography as a means of communicating; so why not apply the same care to our verbal communications?
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When I reviewed resumes of software engineers seeking employment, about half of them would end up in the wastebasket because of spelling and grammatical errors. I felt that someone seeking a job should present their best professional side and that if they didn't take the time to produce a resume without errors that I could probably expect the same approach to their work. I was amazed at the number of college graduates who could not correctly write a simple sentence in the language they had spoken all their life.
Grammatical and spelling errors seem to jump off the page when I am reading something. I feel that it does detract from the presentation of the material and it raises doubts in my mind about the writer's capabilities and attention to detail. I see it all the time on web sites of professional photographers and it really detracts from their message.
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While I don't proofread my posts here quite as rigorously as I would a journal article (and the occasional typo slips through), I do make an effort to spell and punctuate correctly. Giving leeway to non-native speakers is the courteous thing to do, as their English is generally far better than my German/French/Spanish, but native English speakers ought to be able to write coherent sentences and spell correctly at a minimum. It's a sad commentary on our schools that so many cannot.
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Words will change, evolve or dissapear. Language is after all subject to evolution, just as any living organism. If you think about it, how many speak "Shakespearian English" today?
I think u just got 2 live with it. The kids r taking over, creating 2morrows English.
Have a nice day m8ts!
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Rob (and others who responded), you've voiced something which has been annoying me tremendously for some time now. There are a number of online forums that I've simply dropped out of because I got so irritated by the lazy and sloppy use of language. I couldn't focus on whatever point the contributor was making when the post was spattered with sms-speak. How much harder is it to write 'the' instead of 'da', or 'been' instread of 'bin'?
The thing that dismays me most is that I see it used with increasing frequency in business communications, and yes - I too have seen it used in resumés. They go in the bin.
As for non-native English speakers, I find on the whole they make better use of the language than 'the kids' Svein refers to.
English is an impure tongue that has been evolving over centuries, and it will continue to do so as it absorbs words and phrases from a myriad of cultures and languages throughout the world. However, grumpy old man that I am, I cannot accept that these latest 'developments' add anything to the language. They degrade and impoverish it, and are a product of poor education rather than of development.
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When a modern written language is correctly used, it essentially becomes invisible to the reader. Rather than reacting to individual words, the reader goes straight to meaning -- that's how a novelist creates a compelling reality, anything from pirate ships to moon-bases, for somebody who is sitting in an easy chair. Non-standard usage makes us again become aware of words and letters, to the detriment of the meaning: it returns us to the first grade phonics class, where we have to sound everything out to get at the meaning. Texting shorthand is just that: a shorthand. It's not a new language, or even a creative form, but a response to limited-function keyboards. If cell phones ever get full voice recognition -- and why wouldn't they? -- it'll be c u l8r for texting.
JC
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Hi!
Besides being annoying it's also sometimes very difficult to completely understand the correct meaning and ideas behind the incorrect use of words, especially for the non-native readers like me. "Then - than" are two words that seem to be abused on a daily basis in a very frustrating way.
Thanks for opening this topic!
J
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Is it any worse that individuals with poor 'photo literacy' posting lousy images on any
number of photo-oriented forums?
Dat really bugs me.
Mark
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Interesting topic!
Mistakes, errors through ignorance, jargon, fashionable expressions, mispronounciations, grammatical errors, alternative spellings, etc. Where these turn into development of a language is not very clear. I know that I have my personal preferences, but I don't want to impose them on other people.
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OMG u guz jus made me LOL!!
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If cell phones ever get full voice recognition -- and why wouldn't they? -- it'll be c u l8r for texting.
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If only people would speak properly then we could have speech recognition today. If you think writing is being massacred then try the spoken word.
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I think u just got 2 live with it. The kids r taking over, creating 2morrows English.
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Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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To speak or write a language correctly comes down to integrity. The lesser the integrity, the lesser the concern with writing or speaking correctly. Abuse of language also stems from a certain disrespect of a language.
Best Regards
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OMG u guz jus made me LOL!!
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Guz?? That sounds like the first syllable of guzzle. But I sense it's supposed to mean 'guys'. If that's the case, why not gyz? Is there a spelling mistake here?
I'm all in favour of efficiency through simplified phoenetic transcriptions of the language (even the Chinese are doing that, and for good reason), but let's get it right. Guz for guys?? Let's be sensible .
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What I find interesting is that nobody has mentioned the fact that adololescents have been communicating in their own languages as long as there have been languages. Back in the Olden Days when I was a kid, my friends often wrote to me using the same combinations of letters numbers, and acronyms that we see used today, and if civilization is indeed crumbling, it's probably due to other causes. If some trendoid wants to labor under the delusion that he's creating tomorrow's version of the English language, (or creating anything at all) what's the harm? The language will survive and evolve the way it always has, and those who fail to learn to use it will pay a steep price.
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Wow, I see to my relief that I am not the only curmudgeon when it comes to speaking and writing proper English. I will show this thread to my wife in smug triumph.
I trace the beginning of this decline to the near-cessation of Latin instruction in all but the toniest private schools. Having to learn Latin trains the mind to better understand, and respect the beauty of, the English language to which it contributed so richly and generously. Rigor seems to be the main missing element in modern education overall.
I am on my kids constantly about this. Unfortunately, my Latin is too rusty to teach it effectively any more, and it is just not offered in my area except in private schools that are way beyond my means.
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j00Z $|-|0ULD 4LL b3 7|-|4|\||<PhUL j00Z \/\/3r3|\|'7 d34L1|\|9 \/\/17|-| 7|-|0$3 L337 $P34|< b0'/$ 4 Ph3\/\/ '/34r$ 490.
I'm so glad L337 speak is pretty much dead.
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Dear God, Mr P, cryptic as ever (I think!) you have lost me completely!
One of the posters above made mention of kids always having had their own lingo; I accept this, but it´s not the same thing at all today because the flaws have spread to the entire culture, regardless of age and, I´m afraid, educational achievement too. As an example: one of my son´s past girlfriends is a teacher and, having reached that degree of education, I would have expected her to live by what she had been taught. However, the little matter of all right versus alright came up and she, teacher that she is, could not accept that using the incorrect form was something that she should have risen above.
They are no longer together, but that had nothing to do with it, I believe...
I, too, as a silly little boy in the 50s thought it clever to emulate (probably badly) the language of jazz musicians as one imagined it to be from a UK perspective; Mr James Dean had a lot to answer for as did Mr Mumbles himself, Marlon Brando, both adding further confusion. But, and the big but and point is this: for examination purposes, for jobs etc. one always elected to use the best standard English which one could summon; this does not seem to be so today, where even television news programmes are spoiled by badly written captions. (I hate the use of captions on TV: how often has the golf ball fallen into the caption instead of into the hole on the green?)
Evolution of language is one thing, but wilful murder is another thing altogether.
Ciao - Rob C
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I iz tyg4r burn1nz br1t3
In yr f0r3stz 0f t3h n1t3
WHUT da m4x l33t h4ndz 0r 3y3z
Fr4m3z0rd mah f33rfl 5mmtryz?
(...)
(For the rest, see http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archi...50.html#190600) (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/009050.html#190600))
I'm sure William Blake would be thrilled; he loved parody, too.
To a certain extent, I think 1337 speech and similar fancyful changes to the language also serve to enrich it. We get more strings to play on, if only for the sake of satire or parody.
But for regular communication with other people, I agree that we should take care; it's not only the reader's responsibility to extract the original intent of a text, the greater burden is on the author.
Is it any worse that individuals with poor 'photo literacy' posting lousy images on any
number of photo-oriented forums?
Yes, absolutely. People with poor "photo literacy" posting lousy images to photo-oriented forums are at least posting roughly on-topic.
People who are sloppy with language cause problems with communication, unless it's to be critiqued for their language or in parody/satire, in which case it's most likely off-topic for a photo-oriented forum or discussion thread.
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As an example: one of my son´s past girlfriends is a teacher and, having reached that degree of education, I would have expected her to live by what she had been taught. However, the little matter of all right versus alright came up and she, teacher that she is, could not accept that using the incorrect form was something that she should have risen above.
Forgive me for digressing, but what is incorrect about either form?
The one-word spelling alright appeared some 75 years after all right itself had reappeared from a 400-year-long absence. Since the early 20th century some critics have insisted alright is wrong, but it has its defenders and its users. It is less frequent than all right but remains in common use especially in journalistic and business publications. It is quite common in fictional dialogue, and is used occasionally in other writing <the first two years of medical school were alright -- Gertrude Stein>.
An older version of Webster claims that the form "alright" comes from Medieval English (unless I've forgotten the notations used), "al + right".
English spelling is in itself rather suspect.
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Forgive me for digressing, but what is incorrect about either form?
The one-word spelling alright appeared some 75 years after all right itself had reappeared from a 400-year-long absence. Since the early 20th century some critics have insisted alright is wrong, but it has its defenders and its users. It is less frequent than all right but remains in common use especially in journalistic and business publications. It is quite common in fictional dialogue, and is used occasionally in other writing <the first two years of medical school were alright -- Gertrude Stein>.
An older version of Webster claims that the form "alright" comes from Medieval English (unless I've forgotten the notations used), "al + right".
English spelling is in itself rather suspect.
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I agree that English spelling is quite suspect. But I insist that you and Merriam-Webster online are both alwrong about "alright"!
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An older version of Webster claims that the form "alright" comes from Medieval English (unless I've forgotten the notations used), "al + right".
English spelling is in itself rather suspect.
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I agree that English spelling is quite suspect. But I insist that you and Merriam-Webster online are both alwrong about "alright"!
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[/quote]
Like that, Eric!
Rob C
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Man some of you need to get out more! (http://m-w.com/dictionary/nerd)
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(President) Andrew Jackson supposedly said something like "It is a weak mind that can only think of one way to spell a word."
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(President) Andrew Jackson supposedly said something like "It is a weak mind that can only think of one way to spell a word."
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Was he dyslexic, by any chance, or simply inventive - perhaps the original HP Man; no, probably just an attack of dysuria at the time of making or not making that statement.
Ciao - Rob C
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I trace the beginning of this decline to the near-cessation of Latin instruction in all but the toniest private schools. Having to learn Latin trains the mind to better understand, and respect the beauty of, the English language to which it contributed so richly and generously. Rigor seems to be the main missing element in modern education overall.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=127272\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm young enough that I didn't have any Latin instruction available to me in (public) school. There's still no good excuse for mutilating the language .
Frankly, the public schools in the US graduate an awful lot of students who simply can't write. It really doesn't matter how good your ideas are if you can't manage to make yourself understood.
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Taking the above a step further, there is also the problem that grammar alone is not enough. There are many who can do all the technical things correctly yet fail to have the slightest talent for conveying anything in an interesting manner.
I think it´s a lot like photography or other arts in that many can appreciate something that´s done well, but that does not always give them the power to create anything themselves.
But yes, where standards are allowed to fall, as in the UK where dumbing down is government policy because nobody is allowed to fail at anything and being better at something than your neighbour is elitist, there is the dreaded consequence of the next generation of teachers being themselves unaware of their shortcomings and, innocently, passing the decline downwards to the next level...
Holy cow - what a world the politcians are creating for us all!
Ciao - Rob C
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This isn´t quite photography, but it does reflect on what gets written on this and other sites.
I have a problem with the abuse of basic English.
i know i'll get nailed for this one, but here goes.
i'm no native speaker of english (chronologically, it is my 3dr language), i don't live in a country where english is any sort of official language, but i too am sensitive to the abuse of basic english. let me quote a few relevant examples from a single page, which most of you might recognise:
"Improvements in image quality at the very high end of digital imaging (medium format backs) improves by small increments" -- i've been under the impression that image quality improves (maybe), but "improvements in image quality" don't. perhaps i've been wrong.
"I have no intention here in doing a comparison..."
"In additional to being vastly brighter and more readable..."
"Each of these is a place susceptable to moisture..."
"the P45+ definitely seems to produce a "sharper" image than does the P45" -- definitely seems a cop-out, maybe?
"the differences in image quality between backs is small"
yes, you often get what you pay for, and i don't pay. but these quotes are not from a post hastily written while photoshop does its thing or whatever, they come from a review of a very high end product. i would expect better, but the pattern is old, so i no longer expect any better.
cheers,
pedro
...native English speakers ought to be able to write coherent sentences and spell correctly at a minimum.
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Pedro - something which I have wondered about is this: do other countries suffer from this slow decline and allow their language to corrupt or, perhaps, is it something peculiar to the English language where much change is screen-driven courtesy of the US film industry?
Youth is impressionable (hence the cynical move in the UK to allow the vote at 16 years of age) and fashion-driven too; this same youth goes on to adopt the ´new´ language and, in turn, passes it onwards in a non-ending cascade of decline.
But then, even I have found myself adopting some TV-speak on occasion, so perhaps it´s too late already.
Ciao - Rob C
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Pedro - something which I have wondered about is this: do other countries suffer from this slow decline and allow their language to corrupt or, perhaps, is it something peculiar to the English language where much change is screen-driven courtesy of the US film industry?
There is nothing special about English in this regard.
There are notable developments in all Scandinavian languages, in the Sami languages, in German, French, Italian, Mandarin, Japanese, ...
Any language where the underlying culture has contact with other cultures using other languages, or the underlying culture develops, will have some sort of "decline" or "corruption" over time.
The era of modern communication has accelerated these changes.
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Pedro - something which I have wondered about is this: do other countries suffer from this slow decline and allow their language to corrupt or, perhaps, is it something peculiar to the English language where much change is screen-driven courtesy of the US film industry?
i'm not sure how to reply to this one, as i am way out of my depth here (as most everywhere else, lol!). and i wouldn't even try, had you not directed the question at me. is english really declining and corrupting, or just evolving? is “breakfast” a normal everyday word, or the result of two proper words ("break" and "fast" -- as in “i’m going to break fast”) being corrupted by lazy and impressionable people? are the thousands upon thousands of english words of french origin acceptable because they’ve been incorporated long ago, but tv-speak not acceptable just because it’s happening under our chins? can you understand shakespeare in the original? chaucer? why not? has english been allowed to corrupt and decline all these years, or has it just been evolving? if it has been evolving, as most would agree, why should it stop now? why should any other language? all live languages evolve, and even dead ones do too (i’m pretty sure cicero would not understand latin spoken by an educated american professing to speak it).
it would seem that there is a fine line between the normal evolution of a language, and its excessive abuse. it seemed to me that the examples i quoted were of the latter kind, but i’m willing to be corrected.
this is perhaps not what you would like to hear but, like i said, i don’t really know what i’m talking about, so feel free to ignore it.
cheers,
pedro
ps back to photography?...
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i'm not sure how to reply to this one, as i am way out of my depth here (as most everywhere else, lol!). and i wouldn't even try, had you not directed the question at me. is english really declining and corrupting, or just evolving? is “breakfast” a normal everyday word, or the result of two proper words ("break" and "fast" -- as in “i’m going to break fast”) being corrupted by lazy and impressionable people? are the thousands upon thousands of english words of french origin acceptable because they’ve been incorporated long ago, but tv-speak not acceptable just because it’s happening under our chins? can you understand shakespeare in the original? chaucer? why not? has english been allowed to corrupt and decline all these years, or has it just been evolving? if it has been evolving, as most would agree, why should it stop now? why should any other language? all live languages evolve, and even dead ones do too (i’m pretty sure cicero would not understand latin spoken by an educated american professing to speak it).
it would seem that there is a fine line between the normal evolution of a language, and its excessive abuse. it seemed to me that the examples i quoted were of the latter kind, but i’m willing to be corrected.
this is perhaps not what you would like to hear but, like i said, i don’t really know what i’m talking about, so feel free to ignore it.
cheers,
pedro
ps back to photography?...
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Pedro - no, I think you DO know what you are talking about, and certainly your choice of writing style shows you have made a conscious decision to ignore capital letters and similar codes of language clarification; that´s up to you, but also up to you is any lack of respect that comes your way because of that choice.
Ciao - Rob C
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Pedro - no, I think you DO know what you are talking about, and certainly your choice of writing style shows you have made a conscious decision to ignore capital letters and similar codes of language clarification; that´s up to you, but also up to you is any lack of respect that comes your way because of that choice.
rob,
do you really think that the intent of my writing is obscured by the lack of capitalization (i mean, it is not old german we are talking about, is it?)
i can assure you that few if any who know me would say i have a "sloppy mind". as a matter of fact, many jokingly complain that it is too damned sharp!
as for respect... yes, we all make decisions, and i've made one long ago, that i've never regretted, and turned out to have many corollaries. it automatically solves such questions as
- do i want to be respected for what i say and do, or for my clothes and hairdo?
- do i want to be respected for correct spelling and punctuation, or for capitalization?
- do i want to be respected for my images, or for a fancy web page showing them?
i probably don't care about the opinion of those who cannot see past capitalization, and show lack of respect based on that alone.
i've said enough.
cheers,
pedro
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Madre de Dios, Pedro, what hope the United Nations!
Ciao - Rob C
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It would seem that there is a fine line between the normal evolution of a language, and its excessive abuse. It seemed to me that the examples I quoted were of the latter kind, but i’m willing to be corrected.
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Evolution of a language is often the result of conflicting cultural groups communicating with each other within similar geographical spaces. In the case of England (Great Britain) this has been the case of conflict between the literacy of the indiginous population and the successive waves of invaders (Roman, Viking, Saxon, Norman) and tradesman (Norwegian, Dutch, Celtic, Spanish). The English language is the result of the local indiginous population of the British Isles trying to find a common language with which to communicate with the ruling Barons and Kings (as well as each other).
What is not captured here is the great variety of local dialects that exist within the English language - not just the differences between British and American English but also regional dialects within the British Isles, other commonwealth countries (Australia New Zealand, Africa, India, Carribean) and the international business English (Globish).
The issue is not what language is used but with how much care is taken to make sure the communication is appropriate and relevant.
Same holds true for photography. It doesn't matter what style of photography is used people will appreciate the quality of work produced and will also make exception for those who are learning and progressing in the art/craft.
To complete this post and make it circular - the greatest advancements in photography occur when there is friction between different styles and new ways of doing things become available. Hopefully, we will see a photographic version of 1337 speak which challenges the way that we perceive the creation of images.
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Evolution of a language is often the result of conflicting cultural groups communicating with each other within similar geographical spaces. In the case of England (Great Britain) this has been the case of conflict between the literacy of the indiginous (sic) population and the successive waves of invaders (Roman, Viking, Saxon, Norman) and tradesman (Norwegian, Dutch, Celtic, Spanish). The English language is the result of the local indiginous population of the British Isles trying to find a common language with which to communicate with the ruling Barons and Kings (as well as each other).
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While not diminishing the correctness of the general idea here, I feel I must put my pedantic hat on and point out that the Britons, the indigenous population as it is apparently imagined here, had essentially no influence on the the development of the English language. English is a combination of the languages of the various 'invaders' (e.g. Saxon and Norman French) highly modified by specific technical vocabularies (e.g. Greek), Latin rhetorical forms (e.g. e.g.) and neologisms, etc.. Words from the indigenous population are limited to specifically-British land-forms (e.g. comb) and number just a handful.
I would also point out that English, as a language, is probably much more universal today than it has ever been historically, so I am not sure that I entirely buy the argument that such forms as 'text-ese' are really a denigration of the language (especially when used self-consciously) so much as an issue of manners. In the same category I would add people who insist on purposely typing in all-caps or no-caps; it was clever when e. e. cummings did it, but now it comes across as poor, overly-casual communication that makes your text harder to read. In a similar vein, icoulddecidenottousepunctuationorspacingandyoucouldprobablyreaditbutitwouldnotme
aniwasnotbeinganassbydoingit . . .
-Sean [www.larkvi.com]
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It occurs to me that what this thread is really about is the need for a style-guide for writing on the forum, like the Chicago manual is used for historical papers. So, who is up for writing the Luminous Landscape Forum Manual of Style? We can have all kinds of arguments over proper footnoting--it would be fun!
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It occurs to me that what this thread is really about is the need for a style-guide for writing on the forum, like the Chicago manual is used for historical papers. So, who is up for writing the Luminous Landscape Forum Manual of Style? We can have all kinds of arguments over proper footnoting--it would be fun!
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Well, no, not really. We already have an established and perfectly good language in Standard English and there is no need to adapt it to the forum or anywhere else. It is the departures from this standard that cause the problem, the bone of contention; we hardly need more!
Neologisms are perfectly acceptable when they are created to fit new technology or other things which might not have had an earlier, recognized existence. To do so for effect is not exactly cricket...
Ciao - Rob C
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Yikes, a call for high english?
Deez dayz dem wordz dat dey do r str8 def?
I don't know, I love the way english gets morphed on the streets, and sometimes, on the internet. Generally, it doesn't translate well in written form. However, trying to tame the writing that occurs on the internet is like going to Mexico City for a week of vacation and picking up litter with the hope of trying to solve the garbage problem via setting a good example.
I just spent four days in NYC and that is always a language lesson...I also loves me some cockney english, something about that sound and particular treatment/invention of phrase, a treat for the jugs.
Watching my kids chat and communicate in the popular text shorthand is fascinating to me and I find that form to be endlessly imaginative.
Considering that our host on this site seems to take his own writing with a grain of the casual it might be hard to drive your point, Rob.
And, if a bunch of folks don't adhere to these standards? Ban? Ignore? Correct them? Forty lashes on the cheeks with a bluegill??
I'd prefer that a page on this site be dedicated to a gallery of the offenders in the stocks as consequence for bending rules of the written, or, the rules of generally polite interaction. That sort of directed and conscious acid, IMO, is much more alarming and disconcerting than any of the writing problems i see.
(http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o274/rentChicago/stocks.jpg)
R U comfy???
(Are we making progress here? Yes, I think so, however, the point of condescension and an uncomfortable impatience is always being teetered on.)
Lots of folks here and everywhere who offer good information and caint write for crud..whether it be english as a second language issues or just plain old not receiving an education that matches up to the complainant's standards. IMO, no biggy, and ultimately, you'll drive yourself nuts trying to hold people, in the larger world, to your own set of expectations.
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Pete - a treat for the jugs? I hope you meant a treat for the lugs! Jugs seem to be frowned upon on this site by nearly everyone other than yours truly who has totally different ideas about them.
Canute had good ideas too, but his people expected too much. However, you have got to try...
Ciao - Rob C
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The simplest would be if everybody (and I do mean everybody) made their best effort at clear and preferably succinct writing.
There is no excuse for not trying, but failure must be tolerated.
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The simplest would be if everybody (and I do mean everybody) made their best effort at clear and preferably succinct writing.
There is no excuse for not trying, but failure must be tolerated.
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Thank you, Jan. That is an excellent summary of the "bottom line."
People choose their writing styles for a variety of reasons, such as:
- To impress others with ones erudition,
- Out of laziness (hence, the text-messaging abbrevieations, IMHO),
- Out of ignorance,
- Out of sloppiness,
- To be cute,
- etc.
Some people, however, sincerely try to communicate. That requires some care and thought about what the audience might understand of what you are saying/writing.
When a post on LL is too difficult for me to grasp the meaning, I tend to give up. I have no idea what either "a treat for the jugs" or "a treat for the lugs" means, nor will I bother trying to decipher 1377 speak. I'd rather be out photographing.
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Haha, well, In my limited and somewhat superficial experience with Cockney English..."jugs" is one of the extremely convoluted words that exists in the Cockney dialect. It means "ears".
Like I said...these guys take some extreme liberties with the paths of their descriptive phrases.
After looking into the path of this word, it seems to come from "jugs of beer", and perhaps, the shape of them, or, the handle at the top. Like I said, I find this stuff fascinating.
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Thank you, Jan. That is an excellent summary of the "bottom line."
People choose their writing styles for a variety of reasons, such as:
- To impress others with ones erudition,
- Out of laziness (hence, the text-messaging abbrevieations, IMHO),
- Out of ignorance,
- Out of sloppiness,
- To be cute,
- etc.
Some people, however, sincerely try to communicate. That requires some care and thought about what the audience might understand of what you are saying/writing.
When a post on LL is too difficult for me to grasp the meaning, I tend to give up. I have no idea what either "a treat for the jugs" or "a treat for the lugs" means, nor will I bother trying to decipher 1377 speak. I'd rather be out photographing.
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Okay, let´s try to clear this up for you:
lugs, in slang, means ears; jugs, in slang, means boobs which means knockers which means Bristols which means tete which means tits which means, at long last, breasts.
Do you see now why correct terminology is so important?
Ciao - Rob C
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jugs =ears..from jugs of beers
http://www.krysstal.com/cockney.html (http://www.krysstal.com/cockney.html)
There are a bunch more references for this origin.
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Clearly there are multiple "slangs" at work here. If your intent is to communicate --- on an internationally read forum --- it would be a good idea to avoid any variety of slang or local dialect. Doing otherwise leads to arguments about "lugs" vs. "jugs."
To clarify: a jug is "a large bottle with a narrow mouth," and a lug is an "ancient Celtic god." Thse are the first definitions of each that Google gave me.
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ok, from now on, lugs are lug nuts and jugs are the bobbers that catfish trappers use.
Ordinary, transluscent 2% milk jugs. Lets just settle on that and we can then be at square one, where anything goes. Good luck to you all in the ensuing euphemisery.
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ok, from now on, lugs are lug nuts and jugs are the bobbers that catfish trappers use.
Ordinary, transluscent 2% milk jugs. Lets just settle on that and we can then be at square one, where anything goes. Good luck to you all in the ensuing euphemisery.
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Giggles...
Ciao- Rob C
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As a non native I should probably not join this thread (I appreciate your tolerance), but being based in Japan - ze country of ze mobile phone - I might be able to contribute a bit.
One key factor in the changing nature of the Japanese language - and of Japenglish for that matter - is mobile phones themselves.
Talking on the phone being forbidden in Japanese trains, many people (who spend a lot of time in trains and who stick to rules) exchange written messages using their phone (simple SMS or real emails).
Anybody having tried to type anything longer than 2 sentences on a mobile phone keyboard knows that writting "U" instead of "You" has the potential to reduce long term thumb injury.
Besides, the truth be told, the American language itself is seen by many non natives as being a simplified English to start with. How much truth there is to this isn't as relevant as the feeling that it is so. This probably makes it easier for us to take shortcuts and forget about the strict rules we have somehow learned in school.
A real eye opener for me was the encounter with a (really bright) PhD student from California when I was 19. I was even less confident with English then than I am today, and in the middle of a conversation correct myself from a mistaken "I was never in California" to a (probably) more correct "I have never been to California". The fellow looks at me and asks "why have you changed?".
Regards,
Bernard
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First of all, many thanks for tolerating the idiosyncrasies of non-native English users on this ´phorem´
Some people here make references to 1377 speak - excuse my ignorance, what´s meant here?
As for the deteriorating of the use of languages other than English. A lot of people see this happen in the Netherlands too. Nothing specifically English.
I suppose it has to do with the fact that writing on the internet and in emails is simply too easy for thinking too much (for most people that is). A hand written formal letter you sometimes had to write in days before the computer would make one a bit more precise.
Another issue that might be at work here, is that in former days the correct use of the official language helped to raise the social ladder. That is probably no longer the case in many fields. There is no longer a ´high culture´ that everyone can use as a reference.
Et ceterum censeo linguam latinam ab omnibus utendam esse...
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Some people here make references to 1377 speak - excuse my ignorance, what´s meant here?
It's a part of Internet culture, although it probably originated within the BBS culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leet).
|7#3412 ^^`/ 1377 5|<33|z.
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I have a feeling that as far as the UK goes, it is all part of a government-sponsored action to perpetuate the socialist scam that there must be no failure in the ranks, that all people are equal. In other words, the semi-literate will leave school with a certificate, worthless perhaps, but a certificate nonetheless.
The Sunday Time this week had something parallel to this line of thought: it was a piece on intelligence testing as part of job application, and the notion was put forward that these tests exist because employers can no longer have faith in university degrees and feel obliged to conduct some form of independent screening of their own.
Part of the blame must rest with the present lot in power in Britain: while insisting on higher education for all, they ignore the fact that people are different and are blessed with different abilities and they also ignore the fact that when you destroy the apprenticeship system (which has all but vanished) you fail to cultivate the next generation of expert plumbers, painters, electricians, engineers etc. which, in turn, leads to the extortionate cost of hiring such a person to fix your sink.
And some cynics claim there were no good old days! Hell, even professional photography had them!
As for posters for whom English is not the native tongue - glad to have you with us; it is always interesting to learn something about other ways of looking at things.
Oh, by the way, can some kindly US native please explain to me what, exactly, is meant by the following phrase in popular song: homecoming queen. I´m fairly certain that it has nothing to do with the return of a person of dubious sexuality.
Ciao - Rob C
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Well!.... a writing thread on a photographic forum!! I don't know what the world is coming to!
Having been married to an English teacher for some years, I'm well aware of the raging debate in educational circles between the merits of laissez-faire, free creativity, as apposed to ego crunching grammar and spelling correction.
Perhaps it's the difference between left-brain and right-brain activity. Perhaps it's the difference between taking an inspirational photo that's technically bad as opposed to a boring photo that's technically good.
The ideal, of course, is an inspirational photo that's also technically excellent. However, I get a sense that there are trade-offs here (or should that be trades-off). If one can't have the ideal, then which is better, inspirational shot with crap technique, or vice versa?
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Well!.... a writing thread on a photographic forum!! I don't know what the world is coming to!
Having been married to an English teacher for some years, I'm well aware of the raging debate in educational circles between the merits of laissez-faire, free creativity, as apposed to ego crunching grammar and spelling correction.
Perhaps it's the difference between left-brain and right-brain activity. Perhaps it's the difference between taking an inspirational photo that's technically bad as opposed to a boring photo that's technically good.
The ideal, of course, is an inspirational photo that's also technically excellent. However, I get a sense that there are trade-offs here. If one can't have the ideal, then which is better, inspirational shot with crap technique, or vice versa?
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Ray - I think that the taking of an inspirational photo via bad technique is perhaps going to be more of a rare occasion than you might be prepared to accept! I take the example of my own work where, more often than I would have liked, I was forced to work with less than wonderful models. The result of this was that the job was successful only because of my technique which allowed the product (dress) to look nice, the picture did not have that extra zing because the model was not able to give it that dimension, but the client still had a working image. So yes, technique is important all round, another reason why I always printed my own work, even if it meant having to work around the clock on occasion.
I also have doubts as to whether it is possible to claim with any certainty that ´ego crunching grammar and spelling correction´ is really that: if you fail to correct these things at the start, then it becomes almost impossible to make the change later on. I know this for myself with Spanish, where I picked it up as I went along, but never went to the trouble of taking lessons. As a result, I can converse well enough but can´t write, something which annoys the hell out of me, but I know it´s my own fault and far too late to do anything about, the incorrect ways too ingrained for change.
There is something false (to my mind) about the concept of the illiterate genius - I have yet to meet one and at my age I have met most things that life can grow. The closest to that was once during a period I spent in boarding school in India, where a child was brought into the class and asked to add up long lists of numbers which the maths teacher had written on the blackboard. He did; in his head; correctly, and in moments. But is that genius?
There was no need to change the UK education system back in the 60s - it worked very well before that watershed and has been much of a disaster ever since. All that was needed was easier access to education, not a change of style! As with that hoary old 60s concept of free love: bullshit, somebody ALWAYS pays the piper and sadly, in this case it is the student, sacrificed to the greater glory of the political machine.
Yes, quite a new concept for a photo site, this writing thread; quite a good thing for it too and perhaps indicative of this one´s superiority? Hate to say this, but even photo sites were not created equal!
By the way, I´m glad you guys exist - makes living in self-imposed exile rather more pleasant!
Ciao - Rob C
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I have a feeling that as far as the UK goes, it is all part of a government-sponsored action to perpetuate the socialist scam that there must be no failure in the ranks, that all people are equal. In other words, the semi-literate will leave school with a certificate, worthless perhaps, but a certificate nonetheless.
It ain't just the UK, guv'nor.
The Sunday Time this week had something parallel to this line of thought: it was a piece on intelligence testing as part of job application, and the notion was put forward that these tests exist because employers can no longer have faith in university degrees and feel obliged to conduct some form of independent screening of their own.
I'm sure many employers here (US) would love to implement such testing, save for the PC outcry that would result.
...people are different and are blessed with different abilities
Aye, there's the nub of the matter. No amount of PC wishing it away will disguise the fact that human intelligence, however you measure it, is distributed approximately normally, with 68% lying within a standard deviation from the mean (80-120 IQ) and the rest, outliers on either end. Intelligence, defined as raw processing power, is pretty much genetically determined at conception, and for the most part none of the usually touted interventions can make much of a dent in it.
He was widely reviled in publishing it, touching as he did on race and socioeconomic issues in his analysis; but Charles Murray in The Bell Curve more convincingly that anyone laid out the evidence supporting this reality. But I'm moving even farther afield in an already extraterrestrial thread....
can some kindly US native please explain to me what, exactly, is meant by the following phrase in popular song: homecoming queen. I´m fairly certain that it has nothing to do with the return of a person of dubious sexuality.
That'd be my job! Rough translation: beauty queen. In its 1950's Eisenhower-era original iteration, sexuality of any kind, dubious or otherwise, would be a no-no, many fevered adolescent dreams notwithstanding.
"Homecoming" occurs in the fall at high schools and colleges, when, a few weekly games into the 11- or 12-game season, the (American) football team plays a home game after one or more games away; hence, homecoming. This triumphal return to one's own Field of Mars (usually against the most hapless opponent one's coach can schedule, to increase the chances that Mars will christen the effort with a victory) is accompanied by festivities, including pretty girls wearing satin dresses, with the fairest of the lot elevated above her peers, sceptred and crowned like the potentate she is, at least for a night; and by dances, where awkward and perspiring pimply-faced adolescent boys attempt to pin corsages onto dresses without injuring their dates or making contact with forbidden (though very much yearned-for), interesting anatomic adornments. Sigh. Takes me back....sniff.
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Mike - many thanks for the low down on homecoming queens! I wonder if poor old Posh Spice has some kind of hankering for that sort of reverence, however short-lived it may turn out to be.
Oh, an interesting aside: I went into the local newsagent two weeks ago on Sunday to buy a newspaper and as I was leaving, I stepped aside at the doorway to allow a lady to enter the shop. As she passed, she exclaimed ´caballero!´ in surprise. I laughed, turned back to the lady and the girl at the desk and replied that there were not many of us about anymore.
The next week I went back to buy the Sunday paper and I thought I´d better tell her why I had said that. I explained that in the UK women can become emotionally aroused with people opening doors for them and so forth, that they become angry and say that they are perfectly capable of opening doors for themselves, thank you very much, and that young men had become afraid of giving offence by being courteous. She laughed and said yes, they can say things like that, but secretly, they are delighted to be treated as ladies. I told her that that was interesting to know, but that at my age it made more sense for me to pass on the information to my son.
Such is life in this PC world of mad people!
Ciao - Rob C