Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: eronald on June 11, 2007, 08:32:37 pm
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With the second $10K digital MF system from Mamiya suddenly condensed from the vaporware cloud, we should expect a shower of new MF announcements -
- Mamiya has delivered. The competition is holding the sharp end of the nodachi.
- Hasselblad will react fast, is my guess, with some sort of 22MP bundle. They know how important it is to surf the market. Anyway, Fuji will be glad to make them a sensor if no one else wants to throw a great Dane a bone.
- Leaf will probably run crying to Sugar Daddy Kodak to get a cheap sensor to put in their new Rollei clone.
- Sinar have no obvious sponsor, and real problems if MF pricing deflates. Unless of course they turn back into a camera company and just supply Hy6 bodies for Phase and Leaf backs.
- Phase are caught out in the rain. I'm sure they have a plan. Yes?
It's funny to see vaporware turn into product with such consequences. And no photographer will lament the obscene sticker prices of the MF backs.
I respect all the members of the MF industry, really I do. But they have over-priced their product and the return to reality will be painful.
Edmund
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There'll probably be a lot of crying in the digital MF camp when Canon announces a 22mp FF 35mm DSLR later this year, as everyone expects.
We should not forget that the 2nd FF DSLR that Canon proiduced (the 1Ds2) had the same pixel density as the 2nd cropped 35mm format DSLR (the D60).
In fact, I would imagine there's no fundamental reason why Canon can not deliver a 26mp FF sensor with the pixel density of the 400D.
Acquiring the small handful of Canon prime lenses that could really take advantage of such pixel density (if one doesn't already have such lenses) could still be cheaper than buying into an MF system.
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My suspicion is that Hasseblad is going to survive this best, because their expensive lenses probably allow them to subsidize the base back-with-body kit.
Canon has an incentive to lower the price of their new body, too: Make people buy the new lenses that can outresolve their updated sensors.
Edmund
There'll probably be a lot of crying in the digital MF camp when Canon announces a 22mp FF 35mm DSLR later this year, as everyone expects.
We should not forget that the 2nd FF DSLR that Canon proiduced (the 1Ds2) had the same pixel density as the 2nd cropped 35mm format DSLR (the D60).
In fact, I would imagine there's no fundamental reason why Canon can not deliver a 26mp FF sensor with the pixel density of the 400D.
Acquiring the small handful of Canon prime lenses that could really take advantage of such pixel density (if one doesn't already have such lenses) could still be cheaper than buying into an MF system.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122295\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Dear Edmund,
I think you see things a little to simple, concerning pricing of MFDB's. You seem not to understand the R&D costs hidden in the costs of a high-hend digital back and, in case of Sinar, its integration into an entire camera system.
And you completely ignore what costs are involved in software developement: somehow these costs have to be integrated in the pricing of a MFDB.
Your speculations are and remain speculations.
Best regards,
Thierry
With the second $10K digital MF system from Mamiya suddenly condensed from the vaporware cloud, we should expect a shower of new MF announcements -
- Mamiya has delivered. The competition is holding the sharp end of the nodachi.
- Hasselblad will react fast, is my guess, with some sort of 22MP bundle. They know how important it is to surf the market. Anyway, Fuji will be glad to make them a sensor if no one else wants to throw a great Dane a bone.
- Leaf will probably run crying to Sugar Daddy Kodak to get a cheap sensor to put in their new Rollei clone.
- Sinar have no obvious sponsor, and real problems if MF pricing deflates. Unless of course they turn back into a camera company and just supply Hy6 bodies for Phase and Leaf backs.
- Phase are caught out in the rain. I'm sure they have a plan. Yes?
It's funny to see vaporware turn into product with such consequences. And no photographer will lament the obscene sticker prices of the MF backs.
I respect all the members of the MF industry, really I do. But they have over-priced their product and the return to reality will be painful.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122289\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Dear Thierry,
The Mamiya ZD camera has been on sale in Europe for some time now, and it actually works. In fact some guys have posted images right here. The new back does not look like vaporware either, and its $10K price is not a speculation.
Japanese companies have a habit of amortizing their research costs against bigger unit sales; european companies think in terms of elite products with higher unit prices and margins.
Japanese companies do not necessarily supply inferior products when they deliver lower short-term prices. This may be the mistake *your company* is making here. With the benefit of hindsight, we can see that the old Canon and Nikon "imitation lenses" were actually very good performers, and many of the old Nikon F series cameras are still going strong.
I just hope the europeans will realize in time what is happening to them, or else Phase, Leaf and Sinar will replay what happened to Leica, Voigtlander and Zeiss Ikon when Nikon and Canon decided they wanted the market.
Edmund
PS - do you really think that Kodak and Dalsa will keep the MF sensor monopoly much longer ?
Dear Edmund,
I think you see things a little to simple, concerning pricing of MFDB's. You seem not to understand the R&D costs hidden in the costs of a high-hend digital back and, in case of Sinar, its integration into an entire camera system.
And you completely ignore what costs are involved in software developement: somehow these costs have to be integrated in the pricing of a MFDB.
Your speculations are and remain speculations.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122298\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Edmund,
I have put "speculations" in relation with Sinar and what we might do!, and a little bit in relation with other MFDB manufacturers: you really and always speculate and start topics about what these companies will do, with absolutely no insight and clue of it. This is a bit "disturbing" and at the limit of misleading, IMO: just let things happen.
As for quality: it is not my intention to denigrate a product like the ZD or Japanese products. I have myself JP products at home, like everybody. But let endusers make the experiences and choices if it is good enough or not, when it comes to digital photography in the high-end segment.
Also don't mislead by claiming that WE the european MFDB manufacturers do not see the wind coming: I can at least speak about one of them, and I can tell you that we follow closely what happens in the market, not only on the pricing level, but also concerning the trends and changes in technologies. We are not sitting on our chair and looking at things happening, which you seem to believe.
As for your last question: I have no clue about what will hapen in the sensor market and won't speculate about it.
Best regards,
Thierry
Dear Thierry,
The Mamiya ZD camera has been on sale in Europe for some time now, and it actually works. In fact some guys have posted images right here. The new back does not look like vaporware either, and its $10K price is not a speculation.
Japanese companies have a habit of amortizing their research costs against bigger unit sales; european companies think in terms of elite products with higher unit prices and margins.
Japanese companies do not necessarily supply inferior products when they deliver lower short-term prices. This may be the mistake *your company* is making here. With the benefit of hindsight, we can see that the old Canon and Nikon "imitation lenses" were actually very good performers, and many of the old Nikon F series cameras are still going strong.
I just hope the europeans will realize in time what is happening to them, or else Phase, Leaf and Sinar will replay what happened to Leica, Voigtlander and Zeiss Ikon when Nikon and Canon decided they wanted the market.
Edmund
PS - do you really think that Kodak and Dalsa will keep the MF sensor monopoly much longer ?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122303\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry,
It's getting pretty late over here, as we both know; and so I would agree there is not much serious meaning attached to my posts
Edmund
Edmund,
I have put "speculations" in relation with Sinar and what we might do!, and a little bit in relation with other MFDB manufacturers: you really and always speculate and start topics about what these companies will do, with absolutely no insight and clue of it. This is a bit "disturbing" and at the limit of misleading, IMO: just let things happen.
As for quality: it is not my intention to denigrate a product like the ZD or Japanese products. I have myself JP products at home, like everybody. But let endusers make the experiences and choices if it is good enough or not, when it comes to digital photography in the high-end segment.
Also don't mislead by claiming that WE the european MFDB manufacturers do not see the wind coming: I can at least speak about one of them, and I can tell you that we follow closely what happens in the market, not only on the pricing level, but also concerning the trends and changes in technologies. We are not sitting on our chair and looking at things happening, which you seem to believe.
As for your last question: I have no clue about what will hapen in the sensor market and won't speculate about it.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122307\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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That's what I understood, Edmund!
Good night! I am myself just waking up!
Thierry
Thierry,
It's getting pretty late over here, as we both know; and so I would agree there is not much serious meaning attached to my posts
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122311\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Good night! I am myself just waking up!
Too bad the same can't be said for Edmund
Mark
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Anything could happen, remember the Kodak DCS 660? it has a MFSP of $30,000, what ever happen to Kodak and their DSLR? But then, it was the beginning of the digital camera and Canon did not have a digital camera yet.
With the second $10K digital MF system from Mamiya suddenly condensed from the vaporware cloud, we should expect a shower of new MF announcements -
- Mamiya has delivered. The competition is holding the sharp end of the nodachi.
- Hasselblad will react fast, is my guess, with some sort of 22MP bundle. They know how important it is to surf the market. Anyway, Fuji will be glad to make them a sensor if no one else wants to throw a great Dane a bone.
- Leaf will probably run crying to Sugar Daddy Kodak to get a cheap sensor to put in their new Rollei clone.
- Sinar have no obvious sponsor, and real problems if MF pricing deflates. Unless of course they turn back into a camera company and just supply Hy6 bodies for Phase and Leaf backs.
- Phase are caught out in the rain. I'm sure they have a plan. Yes?
It's funny to see vaporware turn into product with such consequences. And no photographer will lament the obscene sticker prices of the MF backs.
I respect all the members of the MF industry, really I do. But they have over-priced their product and the return to reality will be painful.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122289\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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- Hasselblad will react fast, is my guess, with some sort of 22MP bundle. They know how important it is to surf the market.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122289\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Its called an H3D-22.
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The Mamiya ZD camera has been on sale in Europe for some time now, and it actually works.
Yes. I tried it, didn't like it and went out and bought the Aptus 75 with all the expense that entails. Actually I tried the ZD the same day as the A75.
As I look back through my image library the one thing I regret is buying the Kodak SLR-C as many of the shots I took with it are unusable. If I had paid the extra for a 1Ds they would have been OK. Buy cheap, buy twice.
In general you are right about prices coming down. But a pixel is not a pixel. Otherwise we'd all be using compact cameras.
The day I can get the quality of a Schneider 35XL digitar on a Canon 1DsIII (with the same degree of movements) will be the day that Leaf et al are truly threatened. Personally I don't think that will ever happen for commercial and technical reasons.
Perhaps MF cameras may need to become more expensive, not less, to handle the increased competition at the 'low' end.
eg: Broncolour flash packs cost $9000 but their business is not threatened by the release of a new hotshoe flash.
This may be a golden age of cheap MF digital equipment!
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Yes. I tried it, didn't like it and went out and bought the Aptus 75 with all the expense that entails. Actually I tried the ZD the same day as the A75.
As I look back through my image library the one thing I regret is buying the Kodak SLR-C as many of the shots I took with it are unusable. If I had paid the extra for a 1Ds they would have been OK. Buy cheap, buy twice.
In general you are right about prices coming down. But a pixel is not a pixel. Otherwise we'd all be using compact cameras.
The day I can get the quality of a Schneider 35XL digitar on a Canon 1DsIII (with the same degree of movements) will be the day that Leaf et al are truly threatened. Personally I don't think that will ever happen for commercial and technical reasons.
Perhaps MF cameras may need to become more expensive, not less, to handle the increased competition at the 'low' end.
eg: Broncolour flash packs cost $9000 but their business is not threatened by the release of a new hotshoe flash.
This may be a golden age of cheap MF digital equipment!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122330\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
i agree. i have no problem with the prices of equipment at the moment. obviously i would like it cheaper, but for most profitable businesses this is not a major expense.
what i do have a problem with is gear becoming obsolute too quickly. if i knew that i could use the same gear in a competitive industry for at least 5-7 years i wont mind spending more.
when i started photography, there where plenty of photographers with 40k worth of 5x4 and 10x8 gear, but they had a lot of years of life out of the gear.
paul
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i agree. i have no problem with the prices of equipment at the moment. obviously i would like it cheaper, but for most profitable businesses this is not a major expense.
what i do have a problem with is gear becoming obsolute too quickly. if i knew that i could use the same gear in a competitive industry for at least 5-7 years i wont mind spending more.
when i started photography, there where plenty of photographers with 40k worth of 5x4 and 10x8 gear, but they had a lot of years of life out of the gear.
paul
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122334\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Totally agree with Paul. I started off when I left school 16 years ago as an assistant and had no equipment at all, just rented as and when I needed it. The studio had masses of equipment that cost a fortune although much of it is still around today 20+ years from being bought. I have just invested in a leaf 65 after the digital bug caught me and although it is expensive I know I have made the correct decision.
It would be superb if the price was cheaper but unfortunately when you jump in and but any state of the art product you are paying a premium (We all know how much cd's cost when they were first released and what they cost now).
As was stated by Thierry you are paying for the R&D which helps produce "wizzier" new kit. It seems to me that people that are worrying too much about the costs of their "tools of the trade" really should see if their business is profitable enough to support such an expense, if not stick to whatever you can afford, but please for your and everyone's sanity stop moaning.
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To all those crying for cheaper stuff........ if you have to ask for the price, you can't afford it . First make your business more profittable and then buy whatever system you like. I never hear good money making photographers moan about the price of their Hasselblad or phase back's. They insist on the good service provided by the companies and are willing to pay for that. On the other hand we have the canon or nikon shooter who loves DMFB but actually can not afford buying into a dmfb ( at least not whitout hurting his wallet ). You can hear them complaining all the time
Now mamiya is offering a toy for this segment of the market..... but still people keep on complaining.
Things are never to be perfect, tha's for sure.
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As was stated by Thierry you are paying for the R&D which helps produce "wizzier" new kit. It seems to me that people that are worrying too much about the costs of their "tools of the trade" really should see if their business is profitable enough to support such an expense, if not stick to whatever you can afford, but please for your and everyone's sanity stop moaning.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122340\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
[/quote]
Hi
One thing that will help to bring the cost down are companies like Bibble, LR & Raw Developer. Since Bibble has come out with a tethered program for the latest Canon cameras & RD is currently working on a tethered program for Leaf. LR, who knows will they build a tethered program in the future? For example if RD had a tethered program for the ZD would that increase the sales of these two MFD products. What if LR came out with a tethered program for most of the digital backs & Canon , Nikon etc. Bibble was the first to do it, who will be next? I would not be surprised if LR is already looking into this.
Denis
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Prices appear to be inflated for MFDB's. Besides that, I find it a very uncomfortable feeling that I have to invest in another new back within a couple of years.
The whole scenario of trade-in programs to lock in customers is another scary thing.
High trade-in amounts need to be paid from somewhere and the only thing that does generate money are new backs. This means somebody buying new into the system pays a sort of 'extra entrance fee'.
Now I believe in the past trade-in backs were destroyed by several manufacturers, now most are offering refurbished models. To me this is an indication that trade-in programs were under pressure or at least started to cost too much money that could not be recuperated by the margins on new backs.
It should be possible to lower the price of new backs, to finance this by stopping ridiculous trade-in deals. This would generate a larger second hand market as well which currently is almost non-existent. A non-existent second hand market can be a sign of market regulation by participants.
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i agree. i have no problem with the prices of equipment at the moment. obviously i would like it cheaper, but for most profitable businesses this is not a major expense.
what i do have a problem with is gear becoming obsolute too quickly. if i knew that i could use the same gear in a competitive industry for at least 5-7 years i wont mind spending more.
when i started photography, there where plenty of photographers with 40k worth of 5x4 and 10x8 gear, but they had a lot of years of life out of the gear.
paul
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122334\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Exactly what I think. I was waiting for a release of a Canon FF >22Mp but as all of us are still waiting I had to do something. Everything is changing so fast, gone are the days of my youth when my first purchase into a system that would endure was my still used Hasselblad 500 CM .
For still lifes, the new systems seem a tad complicated, and also lack that same feeling of being left with a system that should last a lot longer than they do, forcing a high throughput to make any purchase viable.
I gave up, and bought a 4x5 Canon EOS adapter (Graflock) from China. I did some tests with the 5D on my Sinar yesterday with a Macro 180 Rodenstock. Not as good as a drum scanned film but very usable indeed. Much cheaper than buying 3 new TS Canon lenses, and let's me continue using one Canon body as the base of all digital capture. While waiting for Canon, I sincerely hope the MF makers will offer some truly competitive pricing for comparable features.
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Neil -
Congrats on your new purchases.
Sinar's life-blood has always been long-lasting precision mechanical hardware; how strange that they defend a back-pricing strategy forcing old clients like you to turn to alternative and complex methods of creating view-camera effects.
Mamiya has become the distributor of Alpa in Japan, and I'm willing to bet that the ZD back will cause a sudden and immediate spike of sales for the Alpa and its lenses over there.
Exactly what I think.
-snip-
I did some tests with the 5D on my Sinar yesterday with a Macro 180 Rodenstock.
-snip-
I sincerely hope the MF makers will offer some truly competitive pricing for comparable features.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122348\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry,
The price of Sinar, Leaf and Phase backs is to high that's why most pro photogrphers I know use Canon or Nikon and make it work.
I've recently been looking at MF digital again after leaving it for another year and waiting for the price to become more inline with what we can charge for the work vs. running costs on gear.
I'm surprised that it's still so much money for even the 22 MP backs out there.
Can I go to my clients and say I've had to double my rates to pay off a back that costs as much as a 35mm system with a backup body and a full and good set of lenses ?
Medium format always did cost more than 35mm, but nothing like it is now.
Everybody needs to stop trying to recover their full R&D costs on every sale, digital is not new anymore..
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Thierry, others -
My criticism is constructive. Lower prices would help camera makers and back manufacturers sell *substantially* more.
Look at what happened with the Canon 5D: Canon stripped the expensive 1DsII bare and halved the price. Cheap and very cheerful. Guess what ? The pros jumped for it.
Everyone who has owned a Hassy would like to buy a new Sinar MF or Hasselblad system. At $10K for a complete system there would be a stampede. At $20K there is a deafening silence. A price point closer to $10K might make sense, no ?
People who make "political" suggestions sometimes make them to be helpful. I think everybody on this forum would be happier if they had les difficulty in owning MF products, and MF manufacturers would be happier if their products had a larger customer base, and fluid sales. The cameras are accessible, the backs are not, and prevent you from selling cameras and lenses. Time to solve that.
Your products work - it's time to price them to sell.
Edmund
Thierry,
The price of Sinar, Leaf and Phase backs is to high that's why most pro photogrphers I know use Canon or Nikon and make it work.
I've recently been looking at MF digital again after leaving it for another year and waiting for the price to become more inline with what we can charge for the work vs. running costs on gear.
I'm surprised that it's still so much money for even the 22 MP backs out there.
Can I go to my clients and say I've had to double my rates to pay off a back that costs as much as a 35mm system with a backup body and a full and good set of lenses ?
Medium format always did cost more than 35mm, but nothing like it is now.
Everybody needs to stop trying to recover their full R&D costs on every sale, digital is not new anymore..
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122366\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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The price of Sinar, Leaf and Phase backs is to high that's why most pro photogrphers I know use Canon or Nikon and make it work.
We would all like to see cheaper prices but don't forget that the MFDB makers are at the mercy of the sensor manufacturers.
I contacted Kodak a year or two ago to get pricing for the 22MP sensor and it was around $5K per sensor, and you had to buy 100+ units to get that price. Lower volumes were staggeringly more expensive.
When you add in the R&D costs, the sensor cost, and the production costs of all the other electronics and software that go into the package, then I don't see how Mamiya can be making money on the ZD back at this price. If so, then this isn't the start of a new price structure because it's unsustainable. It may pressure the other back makers to lower prices, but not to this extent. Their products are demonstrably superior and worth a premium.
Why would they sell at cost or even at a loss? Just to keep the brand alive and keep the existing Mamiya customers from jumping ship while the new brand owners plan future products.
Even if they lose $500 per unit sold, and sell 1000 units, $500K is a small price to pay to keep the company alive, especially if they expect to make several million profit on the next generation of back. They might also have calculated that they will sell enough new camera bodies and lenses to compensate for the losses on the digital backs. These digital backs tie you into Mamiya, and then they can make money from the other parts. Exactly the same well-known strategy as printer manufacturers selling printers at a loss but making high profits on the toner cartridges. Of course this is just my opinion...
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The price of Sinar, Leaf and Phase backs is to high that's why most pro photogrphers I know use Canon or Nikon and make it work.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122366\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think its a matter of deciding what work you want to produce and getting the tools that will best help you do it. The deficiency of 35mm based systems isn't just the sensor, its the whole package, lenses, speed of shooting, style. For a lot of images the technical quality is not that relevant and the speed and flexability of 35mm is what is needed. The MF outfits are a different product, higher specs & lower volume, always have been. Just because modern 35mm digital systems can do a lot more in terms of resolution doesn't mean that the economics of producing MF outfits change, except that their market has been eroded and the economics are tougher. I don't see how this will translate to a cheap quality product in response. I think if you were to take into account the equivalent amount of film you would have paid for during the life of a DB then its probably not expensive.
Mamiya has been through a turbulent time in the past couple of years, maybe their pricing at the moment is a short term cash flow generator and when they find their feet in the MF arena the pricing will be higher.
David
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and everything is a question of when it appears on the market. no question, computers and digital techinc are increasing their capacities / decreasing their prices very fast.
if your work does not need to be on the best side qualitywise, if money is the limiting factor here or if your jobs dont require this quality, ofcourse you can wait till the things are cheap, some months, some years waiting and you will be there.
i just came back from a 4 week architecture shooting.
finally the client was amazed by the images he saw ( printed with my epson 7800,- i think soon there wil lexist a cheaper 24" printer,- but i used it NOW ) and he ordered 17 images in a size
of over 2 meter each in best quality for a permanent exhibition.
not very good idea to have done a shot like that with a canon and afterwards not to be able to fit the needs of such an - unforeseen - demand ( these are not billboard prints, they have to be sharp ). even if i could get in half a year a 22mp back for € 1000,-- it would have been a big mistake for me not to have it NOW.
this was even more true 1,5 years ago, at that time i already have had a 22mp back and at that time i already could have started to wait for the cheap mamiya backs ... which i still wouldnt have in my hand.
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I'm a bit surprised about the level of ignorance of basic economic and business tenets. Selling a premium product at premium price - think Hasselblad, Sinar, Phase - is just one strategy to recoop high development costs - and I'd argue the worst. There are others:
- Sell at cost or below cost, and recoop development from sales of accessories. This is what Microsoft and Sony are doing with their consoles: they sell at around or even below cost of manufacturing, making the games people "have" to buy to use the consoles more expensive. Same can be done easily with cameras by selling lenses at premium. But this is of course limited due to interchangeability of lenses between manufacturers/backs/etc.
- Sell at "normal" price - ie. not the high premium price. Although margins are lower, the added sales due to lower prices and bigger potential market might very well mean higher overall revenues and ROI. This is apparently what Mamiya is doing and is more suitable for the camera world. The problem with this approach is that the MFDB market is quite limited, no matter what the price is. This is where thorough market research comes in, to find the sweet spot for pricing to achieve highest ROI - or whatever your company's metric is.
The recent Mamiya announcement convinced me to start saving for an MFDB system as a "serious amateur," something which I wouldn't even dream of a month ago. At least in my case, price does expand the market, and judging from the welcome on this board it's clear that I'm not the only one ecstatic about this development.
So, no, MFDB prices don't "have" to be ridiculously high. Blaming high R&D costs for premium pricing is mere marketing speak in an attempt to justify the high sale price, relying on the customer not to know much about economics or business.
(I'm ignoring quite a few factors, such as the intangible but very real value of positioning your product as premium product - Hasselblad cameras, Montblanc pens - to capture a certain niche market. But my main point remains: high R&D prices do not in themselves demand a disproportionately high sale price.)
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Thierry,
The price of Sinar, Leaf and Phase backs is to high that's why most pro photogrphers I know use Canon or Nikon and make it work.
I've recently been looking at MF digital again after leaving it for another year and waiting for the price to become more inline with what we can charge for the work vs. running costs on gear.
I'm surprised that it's still so much money for even the 22 MP backs out there.
Can I go to my clients and say I've had to double my rates to pay off a back that costs as much as a 35mm system with a backup body and a full and good set of lenses ?
Medium format always did cost more than 35mm, but nothing like it is now.
Everybody needs to stop trying to recover their full R&D costs on every sale, digital is not new anymore..
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122366\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
David,
I am going to answer this as a photographer and also from a business perspective rather than an employee of a digital imaging company.
The R&D costs are a constant and digital continues to evolve. I think as much as photographers dread the investment, they are always going to want the next step up in quality. That quality can come either from new chip technology, the hardware inside the back, or the software. I know as a photographer I would be angry if my equipment suppliers said this is the end of the road and as good as it gets. Even in those long forgotten film days you were paying for R&D as portion of that price of sheetfilm. We always wanted the next sharper film ...the next consistent film. We paid for that in pennies multiplied over thousands of sheets of film.
I know paying for it in one chunk is hard to swallow and that the business model of photography has changed. But if properly managed digital has given photographers a new profit center. At a certain point that Return on Investment becomes greater than what film would be. That 22, 33 or 39 megapixel back you buy today will continue to produce profits for you long after the back is paid off.
Many photogrphers (not all by any means) fell into a trap of never investing money back into their studio once they purchased their equipment. They bought their Hasselblad .....their Speedotrons ...their Sinar P2 .....and they were set. 20 years later all of these items were still working for them. Then digital came along and along came with that came sticker shock. It was a huge investment. Now I think we are in a cycle where photographers have had to become better businessmen and continue to invest in their capabilities and equipment.
Don't think of it as a negative ...but make decisions on what are going to make your business more successful and profitable. No matter if it is Phase, Sinar, Canon or Mamiya .......
Matt
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I said it before.
I don't buy it when I hear medium format photography is a "too small niche" for manufacturers to make real money.
30 years ago, we had Hasselblad, Mamiya, Bronica, Fuji, Contax, Rollei and another bunch of less known brands from East Germany, Rusia and China. I understand they all were profitable.
There should be at least the double in numbers of working professionals (in search of the best image quality available) in the world than 30 years ago. Yet, now we have only a fifth of those camera makers competing. I just don't get it.
Please somebody enlight me. But please don't tell me that the reason is because pros have gone with the dslr top guns. That is not the cause, it is the effect of ridiculous mfdb prices.
Best
Eduardo
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Many photogrphers (not all by any means) fell into a trap of never investing money back into their studio once they purchased their equipment. They bought their Hasselblad .....their Speedotrons ...their Sinar P2 .....and they were set. 20 years later all of these items were still working for them. Then digital came along and along came with that came sticker shock. It was a huge investment. Now I think we are in a cycle where photographers have had to become better businessmen and continue to invest in their capabilities and equipment.
Fell intro a trap?? Spare me this nonsense. Since when is investing in good solid equipment that will last 20yrs for your business, falling into a trap or bad business? The industry has changed and the digital players have had the photographer by the throat for the last few years selling over priced equipment that you had to pay a premium, and extra, for uptime warranties. I refused to pay $25-40 grand on a product that I need to pay extra on to guarantee it worked (and I can afford the backs). That is coming to an end thanks to the likes of Mamiya and there will be more to come from Japan I bet. It may not be the best back on the market but they will get my business and I will make it work. I can purchase it without feeling like I had just been bent over the table. Whether you are making a lot of money in this business or a just getting by, it's your money and you don't have to feel like you are making bad decisions because you don't shoot with the over priced flavour of the month.
G
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I said it before.
I don't buy it when I hear medium format photography is a "too small niche" for manufacturers to make real money.
30 years ago, we had Hasselblad, Mamiya, Bronica, Fuji, Contax, Rollei and another bunch of less known brands from East Germany, Rusia and China. I understand they all were profitable.
There should be at least the double in numbers of working professionals (in search of the best image quality available) in the world than 30 years ago. Yet, now we have only a fifth of those camera makers competing. I just don't get it.
Please somebody enlight me. But please don't tell me that the reason is because pros have gone with the dslr top guns. That is not the cause, it is the effect of ridiculous mfdb prices.
Best
Eduardo
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122423\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That is where you are very wrong .... there are fewer photographers than there were 30 years ago. By quite a large number. The market has shrunk tremendously. There was an industry study done by the Photo Marketing Association a few years ago ....I actually believe it was right at the Millenium comparing 2000 to 1970 ....and they found that the market had shrunk by almost 50%.
Businesses have consolidated ....eliminating many corporate photo studios. Just think of how many colleagues we have watched close their studios and leave the business.
It is definitely a shrinking market ....rather than a growing one.
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Well here's my 2 cents !
For some photographers (especially those that do high value work at high day rates) the highly priced MF backs are still good value pieces of kit that are able to make them even more profit. They previously probably spent more on film and processing in six months than the cost of a P45 ! Also they can charge out for digital equipment hire on each job as well, so they can recoup the cost of the back in a very short time indeed. BUT these people represent only a small number of the total number of professional photographers. Most other pros do NOT do this sort of highly paid work and earn this sort of money. I reckon the majority of professional photographers throughout the world cannot afford to buy one of the larger sensor backs from Leaf, Phase, Hasselblad and Sinar and justify it on a business level. I'd be interested to know how many of those that have bought one of these backs get a R.O.I before a new model is announced and they put themselves on the waiting list.
In my opinion MFDB is at the moment a niche market BECAUSE of the practice of the big four back makers especially due to their policy and control of pricing and supply in the second hand market. I mean how do you control the price of your product to keep it at an artificially high level ? You control the supply. The diamond industry are very good at that !
In order for MF digital photography to flourish EVERY photographer needs access to the kit, not just those that do the top work and can easily afford it. Mamiya have to be applauded for promising to do that at the moment. I think it can only be good for us all that medium format is alive and kicking at both ends of the spectrum, high and low.
Barrie
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That is where you are very wrong .... there are fewer photographers than there were 30 years ago. By quite a large number. The market has shrunk tremendously. There was an industry study done by the Photo Marketing Association a few years ago ....I actually believe it was right at the Millenium comparing 2000 to 1970 ....and they found that the market had shrunk by almost 50%.
Businesses have consolidated ....eliminating many corporate photo studios. Just think of how many colleagues we have watched close their studios and leave the business.
It is definitely a shrinking market ....rather than a growing one.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122430\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Right you are. I believe professional photography as we have known in the past is a dying profession...and quickly. And digital is what is killing us.
Companies are dumbing down their needs for photos taken professionally and giving the job to the guy in the next cubicle. All they need are some photos that sorta say what they want them to say..generic, stock type thing.
As fast as the software applications are changing I don't think it will be too long before it will all be done within CAD. The movie industry is certainly the harbinger on that one.
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Right you are. I believe professional photography as we have known in the past is a dying profession...and quickly. And digital is what is killing us.
Companies are dumbing down their needs for photos taken professionally and giving the job to the guy in the next cubicle. All they need are some photos that sorta say what they want them to say..generic, stock type thing.
As fast as the software applications are changing I don't it will be too long before it will all be done within CAD. The movie industry is certainly the harbinger on that one.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122436\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Too late ... look at much of the work being done in the Auto Industry. They are using CGI images taken from cad information and dropping it right into the ads. When the Hummer H3 was introduced a few years ago the first brochure was all CGI images with the exception of a few lifestyle shots.
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first: "normal" market economics don't really apply to the DMF market....if a phase P45 was 500$ my grandma still should not buy it...
second: the ZD is priced just right....above the canons and below the 16bit backs....there are still options out there and i am sure for some people (like myself) the P21 would be the wiser choice and it is in the same price class....anyone looking in this range would be stupid to not look at everything just to save a couple of 1000...because in the long run it just isn't worth it....
when the 14n came out, it was half the price of everything else....and it was actually ahead of the pack in the stats....canon could easily have lowered their price....but they did not have to....the 14n was a great camera with serious limitations.....the ZD is a great back with some limitations......
i still don't get the issue about price anyway.....compared to film/processing DMF backs are supercheap....i have a P30 that gives me better then MF quality with every click and as far as i know it will last forever.....so regardless of how little i shoot at one point i shoot for free....
does anyoone really think that phase, leaf or sinar are just making all these crazy profits? i honestly think that they are barely scraping by! look at leaf...they can't even get a decend software solution off the ground....none of them sell enough backs to really get the prices down!
we will see if mamiya is just selling the ZD backs off now (this is a 3 year old back) just clearing house, or if they are serious and will show th ZDII soon (which still could mean 3 years until it ships).....
competition is good, but this competition has been out for 3 years...the ZD camera has been selling in the US on ebay for a while (for a little more then the ZD back + body)....so i don't see the big rush to get this now......
i hope for mamiya's sake that this will be good for them....competition is good....
edmund: wonderful title, sounds like you are trying to start a revolution....
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Oh really such thing exist? Can you find me a super wide angle for my 5D that actually works at the corners?
http://www.16-9.net/lens_tests/ (http://www.16-9.net/lens_tests/)
Amount of total real information = lens resolution (lprs/mm)^2 * sensor area, when the other things are equal and noise is not in the formula.
There'll probably be a lot of crying in the digital MF camp when Canon announces a 22mp FF 35mm DSLR later this year, as everyone expects.
We should not forget that the 2nd FF DSLR that Canon proiduced (the 1Ds2) had the same pixel density as the 2nd cropped 35mm format DSLR (the D60).
In fact, I would imagine there's no fundamental reason why Canon can not deliver a 26mp FF sensor with the pixel density of the 400D.
Acquiring the small handful of Canon prime lenses that could really take advantage of such pixel density (if one doesn't already have such lenses) could still be cheaper than buying into an MF system.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122295\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Here's my forecast of the day: We can expect a reaction from Hassy very quickly indeed.
Edmund
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I respect all the members of the MF industry, really I do. But they have over-priced their product and the return to reality will be painful.
First of all, while the list prices of the mainstream digital backs seem shockingly high in comparison to the Mamiya backs, no one that I've heard of pays those prices. I certainly paid nowhere near list for my P45+. MFDB's can be had, brand new, for shockingly large discounts off of list.
Second, the Mamiya back is a smaller sized chip with only 22 MP. After discounts, I doubt the mainstream backs with the same sized sensor would be that much more (OK, I'd guess maybe 50% more, but certainly within spitting distance).
Third, it will probably all be a moot point, since Canon will be releasing their 22 MP, 14-bit 1DsIII soon, and most people won't be able to see any real difference between the Canon and Mamiya images (just my opinion). Mamiya is only a small shock to the MF pricing compared to what Canon is going to do with the 1DsIII. I think 22 MP MFDB will practically disappear, or be sold at huge discounts, once the new Canon arrives. Once that happens, MFDB manufacturers will simply concentrate on even higher MP backs, since they can do so without the compromises that the 35mm format imposes.
Just my $0.02 worth.
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First of all, while the list prices of the mainstream digital backs seem shockingly high in comparison to the Mamiya backs, no one that I've heard of pays those prices. I certainly paid nowhere near list for my P45+. MFDB's can be had, brand new, for shockingly large discounts off of list.
Second, the Mamiya back is a smaller sized chip with only 22 MP. After discounts, I doubt the mainstream backs with the same sized sensor would be that much more (OK, I'd guess maybe 50% more, but certainly within spitting distance).
Third, it will probably all be a moot point, since Canon will be releasing their 22 MP, 14-bit 1DsIII soon, and most people won't be able to see any real difference between the Canon and Mamiya images (just my opinion). Mamiya is only a small shock to the MF pricing compared to what Canon is going to do with the 1DsIII. I think 22 MP MFDB will practically disappear, or be sold at huge discounts, once the new Canon arrives. Once that happens, MFDB manufacturers will simply concentrate on even higher MP backs, since they can do so without the compromises that the 35mm format imposes.
Just my $0.02 worth.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=0\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
the ZD chip is the same size as the other large chips....hass would call it full frame...
i too think that this is more competition to the canon (without the handling) then to the other backs....
my experience is the same when it comes down to buying a back.....dealers are very careful with "tire kickers" ...because there are substantial price cuts....but also keep in mind that the dealers do provide services (tech-support, replacement, general hand holding) that don't usually come with DSLRs and probably won't come with the ZD.....
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my experience is the same when it comes down to buying a back.....dealers are very careful with "tire kickers" ...because there are substantial price cuts....but also keep in mind that the dealers do provide services (tech-support, replacement, general hand holding) that don't usually come with DSLRs and probably won't come with the ZD.....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122471\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I do not need the hand holding or the added service, now do I get a deep deep discount?
Now this is a remark with a wink but a serious undertone, I truly have had need for a dealer under 5 times in the last 25 years I use camera equipment. Naturally I do appreciate the efforts some dealers take but there are people that just don't need the handholding.
I constantly see things like, great dealer, excellent help, service etc.. Sorry, I just want a properly working product, this should not be too much to ask. It sometimes sounds like you are in a deep hole when you are unfortunate enough to have a lousy dealer. Fortunately none of the backs I have owned ever needed to see a dealer and that is how it should be. The whole concept of really needing to have a great dealer sounds too much like a patch for inferior products.
So either we get sold great product which (at least in my case) does not need 'dealers help' or we get sold a lousy product where a dealer is mandatory. The last thing is not my experience, I guess I am extremely lucky.
You ought to expect proper service with any product you buy, especially high-end equipment. I wonder now and than why this gets treated like it is something really special.
Besides that I am pretty sure the Mamiya will be covered by adequate service.
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I do not need the hand holding or the added service, now do I get a deep deep discount?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122475\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Sorry, I have to chime in here.
Dealer support and added service is a lot more than just tech support.
With a good dealer you can walk in, arrange a demo and compare three different models head to head. You can get information on different camera systems. You can get rentals of the more esoteric things, usually at a discount if you already own a MFDB from them. You have someone to go to when you're ready to upgrade or update. You have the convenience and security of a real contact that you can actually talk to not send an e mail and hope for an answer. You have someone that will make sure you get every last ounce of quality and efficiency out of your investment so that you end up making more money and you have yet another networking contact.
If you still want a deep deep discount, I'm sure there are plenty of gray market "dealers" out there that may or may not be around 6 months from now when you do need something else.
I'm getting off my soapbox now.
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the ZD chip is the same size as the other large chips....hass would call it full frame...
You're right - my bad.
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Sorry, I have to chime in here.
Dealer support and added service is a lot more than just tech support.
With a good dealer you can walk in, arrange a demo and compare three different models head to head. You can get information on different camera systems. You can get rentals of the more esoteric things, usually at a discount if you already own a MFDB from them. You have someone to go to when you're ready to upgrade or update. You have the convenience and security of a real contact that you can actually talk to not send an e mail and hope for an answer. You have someone that will make sure you get every last ounce of quality and efficiency out of your investment so that you end up making more money and you have yet another networking contact.
If you still want a deep deep discount, I'm sure there are plenty of gray market "dealers" out there that may or may not be around 6 months from now when you do need something else.
I'm getting off my soapbox now.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122477\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Excuse me but in my book most of these things you mention fall under sales efforts, this is exactly why I am wondering since when is this promoted to something spectacular.
Maybe you are missing my point. I do not mind paying someone for added service I request but do I have a choice?
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First of all, while the list prices of the mainstream digital backs seem shockingly high in comparison to the Mamiya backs, no one that I've heard of pays those prices. I certainly paid nowhere near list for my P45+. MFDB's can be had, brand new, for shockingly large discounts off of list.
Second, the Mamiya back is a smaller sized chip with only 22 MP. After discounts, I doubt the mainstream backs with the same sized sensor would be that much more (OK, I'd guess maybe 50% more, but certainly within spitting distance).
Third, it will probably all be a moot point, since Canon will be releasing their 22 MP, 14-bit 1DsIII soon, and most people won't be able to see any real difference between the Canon and Mamiya images (just my opinion). Mamiya is only a small shock to the MF pricing compared to what Canon is going to do with the 1DsIII. I think 22 MP MFDB will practically disappear, or be sold at huge discounts, once the new Canon arrives. Once that happens, MFDB manufacturers will simply concentrate on even higher MP backs, since they can do so without the compromises that the 35mm format imposes.
Just my $0.02 worth.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122468\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
How much did you pay for your P45+ then ? You know if there are discounts to be had lets have a level playing field for buyers everywhere. Prices in the USA are so much cheaper than in Europe, why?
No matter how good the new Canon is when it finally arrives it's file won't look like a MFDB file. There will be no comparison. The 'look' will be very different even though the resolution might be the same.
How many more megapixels do we need? I reckon most of the people who own a 39mp back will never use it to it's full potential. It's probably more a question of ego. You know the "my back has more megapixels than yours" syndrome.
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Excuse me but in my book most of these things you mention fall under sales efforts, this is exactly why I am wondering since when is this promoted to something spectacular.
Maybe you are missing my point. I do not mind paying someone for added service I request but do I have a choice?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122484\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think I get your point exactly....
But honestly, do you think that these "sales efforts" come free?
Compared to someone that sets up a website, posts a ridiculously low price, has no knowledgeable staff and keeps no inventory at all, let alone demo equipment, yes I think this is spectacular.
There is an old saying among retailers...
Great service
Great selection
Great price
Choose any two
That is the reality of the world...and that is also my last comment on this.
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I may be wrong at figures. Hard to believe that in the time humanity double in numbers, there are 50% less pro photographers working. That accounts to a relative 25% shrinkage.
Maybe in your cities. Because in my city there are tenfold more pros than 30 years ago. All using dslr's because present prices of dmfb's are out of our league.
But I would expect to see a couple of ZD backs by end of the year. I´d rather wait to see if Hasselblad comes with a better offer than the CFV. Nice try, but not quite. (at least not for me).
Eduardo
[quote=mattlap2,Jun 12 2007, 12:2
That is where you are very wrong .... there are fewer photographers than there were 30 years ago. By quite a large number. The market has shrunk tremendously. There was an industry study done by the Photo Marketing Association a few years ago ....I actually believe it was right at the Millenium comparing 2000 to 1970 ....and they found that the market had shrunk by almost 50%.
Businesses have consolidated ....eliminating many corporate photo studios. Just think of how many colleagues we have watched close their studios and leave the business.
It is definitely a shrinking market ....rather than a growing one.
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How much did you pay for your P45+ then ? You know if there are discounts to be had lets have a level playing field for buyers everywhere. Prices in the USA are so much cheaper than in Europe, why?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122485\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Taxes.
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Taxes.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122497\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
What taxes are these? Aren't these backs mostly made in Europe anyway? I know we have to pay 17.5% VAT in the UK, but I could fly to the USA and get one much cheaper. Except they wouldn't sell one to me if they knew I came from the UK. I presume American importers have to pay duty to get the stuff into their country as well as charge their state purchase tax on top.
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What taxes are these? Aren't these backs mostly made in Europe anyway? I know we have to pay 17.5% VAT in the UK, but I could fly to the USA and get one much cheaper. Except they wouldn't sell one to me if they knew I came from the UK. I presume American importers have to pay duty to get the stuff into their country as well as charge their state purchase tax on top.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122499\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Not so simple. Almost all taxes are higher in Europe. That means that not only are we paying for higher VAT (~ 15-22% in Europe, compared to sales taxes of ~ 0-5% in US IIRC), but we are paying higher taxes on wages, raw materials, transportation, energy, etc. etc., in addition to higher social security costs, higher labor costs, higher financing costs, labor market rigidities, fewer working hours, less efficient financial markets, etc. etc. All of this compounds - snowballs - into the outrageous price differentials we see in cameras and other goods, differentials which can't be explained away by mere import duties or exchange rate differentials.
I wouldn't be surprised if Europeans pay higher margins on goods just because we're used to outrageous prices. But the main reason why everything is so expensive here is to pay for all the public goods through taxes. So, the next time you pay 100% more on a camera you can dwell on the warm and fuzzy feeling you get from the knowledge of providing for a public opera house, or the replacement liver for the guy who's dying due to 30 years of alcoholism.
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Ok, let's hear some pricing, while we're in the mood for it.
I would expect the Mamiya kit also gets discounted from list.
Edmund
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Ok, let's hear some pricing, while we're in the mood for it.
I would expect the Mamiya kit also gets discounted from list.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122503\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Ronald ....
The price listed in the Mamiya USA press release are listed as street price ...not list. So I am sure that is the US MAP. From what I hear the margins that are being given to dealers are small enough that I doubt you will see much in the way of discounting from most sources.
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Not so simple. Almost all taxes are higher in Europe. That means that not only are we paying for higher VAT (~ 15-22% in Europe, compared to sales taxes of ~ 0-5% in US IIRC), but we are paying higher taxes on wages, raw materials, transportation, energy, etc. etc., in addition to higher social security costs, higher labor costs, higher financing costs, labor market rigidities, fewer working hours, less efficient financial markets, etc. etc. All of this compounds - snowballs - into the outrageous price differentials we see in cameras and other goods, differentials which can't be explained away by mere import duties or exchange rate differentials.
I wouldn't be surprised if Europeans pay higher margins on goods just because we're used to outrageous prices. But the main reason why everything is so expensive here is to pay for all the public goods through taxes. So, the next time you pay 100% more on a camera you can dwell on the warm and fuzzy feeling you get from the knowledge of providing for a public opera house, or the replacement liver for the guy who's dying due to 30 years of alcoholism.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122502\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks Feppe,
Now I understand. I'll be able to sleep more soundly tonight knowing that my full price UK purchased P45+ is worth the extra cost. I suppose my warm fuzzy feeling will be intensified to know that my purchase will include a contribution to the war in Iraq too !
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Concerning dealers in Paris, I have one thing to say: Avoid at all costs. Literally, paying money to buy ANYWHERE else is probably worth it. I have got so paranoid that when a company sent me a replacement recently I warned the dealer that I had the serial of this camera so as to be sure he would not discreetly swap it out to give a "better" customer a pristine camera. This was not MF but Leica, but you get the picture.
I watched as the dealer from who I got a broken 1DsII switched the box insides from that unit with my replacement unit so he could pretend to the poor next customer that he was getting a new 1DsII when he was getting a repaired camera.
The manufacturers know their dealers and treat the customers of these dealers exactly as they deserve: as suckers.
Edmund
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How many more megapixels do we need? I reckon most of the people who own a 39mp back will never use it to it's full potential. It's probably more a question of ego. You know the "my back has more megapixels than yours" syndrome.
The reason I got a MFDB, and the reason I specifically got the P45+, was that I felt my landscape shots lacked fine detail. I had previously been using a 12 MP Nikon D2X for landscape work, using the best primes I could get my hands on, mirror lockup, cable release, heavy tripod, etc, and I still felt my images looked soft (obviously this is very subjective, and one person's perception of soft is just fine to another person). Basically I craved lots of detail in large print sizes. With the 39 MP back, I can print up to 18" x 24" at 300dpi, without any uprezzing, so for now I'm a happy camper. The increase in fine detail I'm seeing between my Nikon and the P45 is truly amazing. There's just no comparison. It's not just the MP, it's also the lack of a A/A filter on the back, and the amazing shadow detail in the MFDB shots. And it's not like the D2X is lacking. I've compared the P45 files to Canon 1DsII files and the results are just the same. The P45 blows both of them away. Anyway, everybody has their reasons. I had mine. And so far it's actually exceeded my expectations. As for whether 39 MP is enough, all I can say is I use every last one of them.
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Hi
I have owned the ZD camera for 14 months now with no problems. With this camera I don't need support from Mamiya to hold my hand & the warranty has passed now. Frank Doorhof is currently doing a review of the ZD back & is having fun, looks like he is buying one. From what I have been seeing on his reviews the iso 400 has improved from the ZD camera.
Last year I bought RD for $100.00 USD & now I process all my ZD & 5D files with this program. Last week Bibble released there new program that will shoot tethered with the more recent Canon cameras. RD is currently working on a tethered program that will work with Leaf & Canon files. If he can get the meta data from other camera makers they could also be added to the list. What about LR since they are ADOBE I would not be surprised if they come out with a tethered program. The MAC group giving LR with every ZD back or ZD kit is a move in the right direction.
Yes the Aptus 22 back is better than the ZD back. But there is a cost $25,000 vrs $7000 USD. For a photographer wanting to get into MFD this is not a bad start. It uses the same Dalsa chip ( 1.16x lens factor) . For me I could never go back to the 1.5x lens factor. Plus if there is some spare cash you could buy some lighting equipment, DSLR, new computer, printer etc.. And since you are in an open system you can still buy a digital back of your choice later or rent.
With the new 3rd party software coming to the market the ZD will benefit the most.
Thanks Denis
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I allready have my setup
But which programm is RD ?
I'm still struggeling to see what I will use.
At the moment it's Bridge and Lightroom.
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Concerning dealers in Paris, I have one thing to say: Avoid at all costs. Literally, paying money to buy ANYWHERE else is probably worth it. I have got so paranoid that when a company sent me a replacement recently I warned the dealer that I had the serial of this camera so as to be sure he would not discreetly swap it out to give a "better" customer a pristine camera. This was not MF but Leica, but you get the picture.
I watched as the dealer from who I got a broken 1DsII switched the box insides from that unit with my replacement unit so he could pretend to the poor next customer that he was getting a new 1DsII when he was getting a repaired camera.
The manufacturers know their dealers and treat the customers of these dealers exactly as they deserve: as suckers.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122512\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
eronald,
concerning the bad relation from the dealers who know you....
did you gave them a similar amount of questions, sugestions and speculations, than you do here in the forum?
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I allready have my setup
But which programm is RD ?
I'm still struggeling to see what I will use.
At the moment it's Bridge and Lightroom.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=122558\")
Hi
Rd is Raw Developer
[a href=\"http://www.iridientdigital.com/products/rawdeveloper.html]http://www.iridientdigital.com/products/rawdeveloper.html[/url]
Please try iy out.
Denis
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Thanks, but I don't run a Mac
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Not only has the number of professional photographers shrunk, but as well the number of MF systems sold in the world, dramatically. There is also a serious study which put the figures of MF bodies sold in 2003 at some 20'000 units (worlwide), then 12'000 in 2004, 8'000 in 2005 and may be just over 5'000 in 2006.
Thierry
I may be wrong at figures. Hard to believe that in the time humanity double in numbers, there are 50% less pro photographers working. That accounts to a relative 25% shrinkage.
Maybe in your cities. Because in my city there are tenfold more pros than 30 years ago. All using dslr's because present prices of dmfb's are out of our league.
But I would expect to see a couple of ZD backs by end of the year. I´d rather wait to see if Hasselblad comes with a better offer than the CFV. Nice try, but not quite. (at least not for me).
Eduardo
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Interesting data Thierry.
Is there a forecast for these figures to keep shrinking?
Do you know if the Hy6 system will eventually offer a "bargain" dback?
There are speculations now, that Hasselblad may offer a CFV2.
Eduardo
Not only has the number of professional photographers shrunk, but as well the number of MF systems sold in the world, dramatically. There is also a serious study which put the figures of MF bodies sold in 2003 at some 20'000 units (worlwide), then 12'000 in 2004, 8'000 in 2005 and may be just over 5'000 in 2006.
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122619\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry,
I have seen similar numbers.
Will you be in Paris this weekend ?
Edmund
Not only has the number of professional photographers shrunk, but as well the number of MF systems sold in the world, dramatically. There is also a serious study which put the figures of MF bodies sold in 2003 at some 20'000 units (worlwide), then 12'000 in 2004, 8'000 in 2005 and may be just over 5'000 in 2006.
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122619\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry,
I have seen similar numbers.
I have seen numbers for the 35mm dSLR market that look quite a bit larger
Will you be in Paris this weekend ?
Edmund
Not only has the number of professional photographers shrunk, but as well the number of MF systems sold in the world, dramatically. There is also a serious study which put the figures of MF bodies sold in 2003 at some 20'000 units (worlwide), then 12'000 in 2004, 8'000 in 2005 and may be just over 5'000 in 2006.
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122619\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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There is also a serious study which put the figures of MF bodies sold in 2003 at some 20'000 units (worlwide), then 12'000 in 2004, 8'000 in 2005 and may be just over 5'000 in 2006.
I guess there are several reasons for this:
- First, there are a lot of older but well working MF bodies/systems in the hands of the photographers who are interested in DBs. And pro shooters tend to keep what works, compared to amateurs who buy a new DSLR when it is available and has a few pixels more.
- Second: The uncertain direction in which the MF market will drift, makes interested photographers hesitate. The consolidation of the market and the tendencies of the manufacturers to create closed systems doesn't make it easier for the shooters.
- Third: The discussion led here makes clear that there only a small percentage of shooters can economically afford DBs (and find it a cheap investment), the others probably go along shooting their DSLRs, and hope that the next 1ds camera will bring them even closer.
- Fourth: Of course noone will buy a MF system today for film, so the DB pricing and number of sold MF systems are closely related. Should MF backs with the performance of currents lets say 22MP (not square) will be available for 8k or 9k, the number of MF systems may go up again.
A professional shooter with a well established business and good client base will still want and need the quality advantage, but those who would have a hard time affording such a system will hesitate 5x before going to get it.
30k for a camera with back is just *very* (!) expensive. Noone should be surprised that the numbers of sold systems go down like a rock. The price for a 5d + a couple of excellent lenses is just a small fraction (read: >20%) of that.
regards, Bernhard
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No, I'm not, why should I?
I am busy in Switzerland at Sinar this week, showing and testing the Sinar Hy6.
Thierry
Thierry,
I have seen similar numbers.
I have seen numbers for the 35mm dSLR market that look quite a bit larger
Will you be in Paris this weekend ?
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122625\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Nobody can predict the future of MF, but given that we have come out with our camera is showing that we have hopes (if not certitudes) for this market.
As for a "bargain" MFDB: I can't answer this today, and better wait and see what happens.
Thierry
Interesting data Thierry.
Is there a forecast for these figures to keep shrinking?
Do you know if the Hy6 system will eventually offer a "bargain" dback?
There are speculations now, that Hasselblad may offer a CFV2.
Eduardo
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122622\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Not only has the number of professional photographers shrunk, but as well the number of MF systems sold in the world, dramatically. There is also a serious study which put the figures of MF bodies sold in 2003 at some 20'000 units (worlwide), then 12'000 in 2004, 8'000 in 2005 and may be just over 5'000 in 2006.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122619\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Wow, I had no idea the numbers were so low.
Back in the (film) days, a top-of-the-line film camera (1n/F5) sold in the low US$1000's, and a mf body went for approximately triple that. One could see a similar price delta (again, very roughly 3x) between mf and sf in cost of lenses, film processing costs, etc.
Now that digital has arrived, I believe MF will continue to shrink to a small set of core afficionados, until/unless a similar price premium of ~3x is restored. In the digital world, a very good small format body will set you back ~$3000, wheras (excepting this latest Mamiya announcement) medium format body + sensor is $20-30K (depending on sensor).
This is a 7-10x delta for the initial investment for mf vs sf digital.
Although it saddens me to see it, from this it is not surprising to me that so many photographers are migrating away from mf.
With so many fewer mf photographers in the fold, I doubt the numbers will return to 20,000 units sold per year any time in the near future. But once the mf/sf delta is restored to a more reasonable premium, I would expect the diminishing trend to (slowly) stop, and even reverse, particularly if the MF offerings are competitive in other areas as well (e.g. AF performance, metering, lens selection, portability, service, etc.)
Very interesting discussion, everyone.
Best regards,
Brad
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Thierry, those figure are very interesting. What no-one seems to have pointed out is that the number of digital backs which sold last year is double the number of MF camera bodies. In other words, a lot of photographers must be using used bodies. It also doesn't take the increased rental trend into account.
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Ronald ....
The price listed in the Mamiya USA press release are listed as street price ...not list. So I am sure that is the US MAP. From what I hear the margins that are being given to dealers are small enough that I doubt you will see much in the way of discounting from most sources.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122508\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I can most emphatically confirm this. While we are Mamiya dealers, the margins available to Mamiya dealers on the ZD aren't enough to support the level of support for these types of solutions require (14 months without a problem notwithstanding). We are currently considering ways to make this work.
The Value-Added Dealer argument has been beaten to death, but - one more gong of the bell - the moment you do need that support is the moment you completely forget about how much that support cost you, no matter how many consecutive months of good fortune you have experienced.
Steve Hendrix
PPR
www.ppratlanta.com
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That's correct, Graham! Look at the second-hand MF market.
Thierry
Thierry, those figure are very interesting. What no-one seems to have pointed out is that the number of digital backs which sold last year is double the number of MF camera bodies. In other words, a lot of photographers must be using used bodies. It also doesn't take the increased rental trend into account.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122650\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I think there's the Paris MF meet, which is yearly, and where usually people come to show their wares. Of course, France is not an interesting market for Sinar.
Edmund
No, I'm not, why should I?
I am busy in Switzerland at Sinar this week, showing and testing the Sinar Hy6.
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122632\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I think there's the Paris MF meet, which is yearly, and where usually people come to show their wares.
Edmund
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=122658\")
[a href=\"http://www.leaf-photography.com/pages/News/events/technicinephot07_event.aspx]Leaf AFi at the Alber Khan Museum[/url]
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Leaf AFi at the Alber Khan Museum (http://www.leaf-photography.com/pages/News/events/technicinephot07_event.aspx)
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=122670\")
I see you are on top of things as usual, Yair !
Hope to see you there !
[a href=\"http://edsbloggertest.blogspot.com/2006/09/from-photokina-leaf-afi-camera-is-in.html]http://edsbloggertest.blogspot.com/2006/09...mera-is-in.html[/url]
Edmund
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Long time since photokina eh?
Sadly I won't be in Paris this time (not in my territory)...
For sure we'll have other opportunities to meet
cheers
Yair
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I never had a client asking me if I was shooting MF....they look at my images and like what they see and book me. When I was still shooting film I used MF because I liked the bigger brighter viewfinder and I loved the larger images on a contact sheet.
I switched to MF about 11 months ago (leaf 65) and like the fact that the images look like I am shooting MF film again. I think the price is way to high...but I also think that a Ferrari is overpriced (BUT would still buy one if I had the money!--don't have it because I bought a MF digital back and had to settle for a Porsche).....I still love to shoot with my Ds1MkII...it is superfast and the focussing is fast and always right on!...and the color are better right out of the camera....with the Leaf I have to do more....but the end result is better. not a lot better but enough...more information..even after heavy retouching.
Someone wrote about photographers buying equipment 20 years ago and never upgraded (updated) well I don't care what anybody says...but if you don't update/upgrade and you don't reinvest in your business...you are going to lose!! your clients and your business!! And now with the digital age you are going to lose even faster!! It sucks!! BUT it is the way it is! Since I went digital about 4 years ago..I have bought about 5 new computers, upgraded photoshop about 3 times and changed camera's 4 times..not to mention monitor calibration systems, raw developers and all the books that you need to read to stay current..cost me a bundle in money and time...but in the end the clients keep on coming back! it isn't easy for most of us to spend this kind of money, but to be honest...I kind of like all the new technology and can't wait for the next new gadget!!
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Not so simple. Almost all taxes are higher in Europe. That means that not only are we paying for higher VAT (~ 15-22% in Europe, compared to sales taxes of ~ 0-5% in US IIRC), but we are paying higher taxes on wages, raw materials, transportation, energy, etc. etc., in addition to higher social security costs, higher labor costs, higher financing costs, labor market rigidities, fewer working hours, less efficient financial markets, etc. etc. All of this compounds - snowballs - into the outrageous price differentials we see in cameras and other goods, differentials which can't be explained away by mere import duties or exchange rate differentials.
I wouldn't be surprised if Europeans pay higher margins on goods just because we're used to outrageous prices. But the main reason why everything is so expensive here is to pay for all the public goods through taxes. So, the next time you pay 100% more on a camera you can dwell on the warm and fuzzy feeling you get from the knowledge of providing for a public opera house, or the replacement liver for the guy who's dying due to 30 years of alcoholism.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122502\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Reflecting the impact of high production cost on a given market only is a business practise unheard of. There is zero reason why Europeans alone should pay for those higher company taxes.
By the way, I strongly suspect that companies doing business in the EU will soon be forced to get rid of their market segmentation stratetegies and will therefore have to allow EU customers to buy their stuff from the US if they please.
Anyway, if anything EU goods should be more expensive in the US now because of the strong Euro...
Regards,
Bernard
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The cost of a state-of-the-art MFDB is about 10x the cost of a basic 35mm DSLR, such as the Canon 5D, is it not?
Hasn't a similar price differential always applied between 35mm film camera bodies and MF film camera bodies? What's changed?
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Hi
I hate to be negative, but coming from an AD based perspective in Australia things are not well. I can truly understand why photographers elect not to buy into MFD. I actually think bugets have fallen in the last 7 years. Oh by the way our economy is in great shape, I was talking to someone in banking about whats going on & he feels there are different levels to the economy. Mining, oil & gas being the top. Hell if you bought oil @ $12.00 ( 1999) today it is worth $65.00 USD today, so if you put $100,000 down you would have $541,667.00 today not a bad gain. Rates have gone down in Australia since 2000 & digital has not helped. Clients thing it is cheaper to shoot digital???? When I talk to fellow photographers here in Sydney they are lets say , NOT HAPPY. Almost all the wedding & portrait photographers have ditched MF period & have gone to DSLR ( Canon is the winner here ). We Use Leaf here & the ZD so I am a Mamiya user. One reason I use Mamiya is that it is an affordable system. I also use Canon. When I talk to photographers here most use DSLR & really unless we as photographers start making more money that will not change. Clients are expecting more for less money these days. When I read about MF dropping from 20,000/yr to 5000 in 4 years are we to be surprised. Please anyone from other countries tell me a better story. I am not complaining and I am telling you what I hear from fellow photographers, as we do a lot of talks around the country. In the past 3 years Contax & Bronica are train wrecks in the MF world. If anything this new ZD price will help MFD for all the players.
Denis
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i agree. i have no problem with the prices of equipment at the moment. obviously i would like it cheaper, but for most profitable businesses this is not a major expense.
what i do have a problem with is gear becoming obsolute too quickly. if i knew that i could use the same gear in a competitive industry for at least 5-7 years i wont mind spending more.
when i started photography, there where plenty of photographers with 40k worth of 5x4 and 10x8 gear, but they had a lot of years of life out of the gear.
paul
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122334\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think we all think that way, I could dive in with a P45 and system to mount it on, but knowing the main part of that system will be lagging behind a cheaper product before I've finished paying for the one I have is just to offputting. If I was shure it would be delivering what the market requires in 10 years time it makes sense. A system would cost me nearly £30k, if it can't generate at least £30k extra in the next 2-3 years it's a pointless investment.
Kevin.
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The cost of a state-of-the-art MFDB is about 10x the cost of a basic 35mm DSLR, such as the Canon 5D, is it not?
Hasn't a similar price differential always applied between 35mm film camera bodies and MF film camera bodies? What's changed?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122769\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No, not that much..
A few years ago a full kit of Canon 1V's, flashes all the L zooms and a couple other lenses cost maybe 25 % less than a medium format Blad kit with a couple bodies, a few backs and 4 or 5 lenses.
( Guessing- it was a while ago )
Not so long ago a lot of pro photographers here in Oz ran both a 35 Kit and medium format and you use whatever was best for the job at hand.
Now I know a lot of the same guys are just shooting with one or the other.
With the price of the new Mamiya it might make sense to look at runng both again..
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Hi
I hate to be negative, but coming from an AD based perspective in Australia things are not well. I can truly understand why photographers elect not to buy into MFD. I actually think bugets have fallen in the last 7 years. Oh by the way our economy is in great shape, I was talking to someone in banking about whats going on & he feels there are different levels to the economy. Mining, oil & gas being the top. Hell if you bought oil @ $12.00 ( 1999) today it is worth $65.00 USD today, so if you put $100,000 down you would have $541,667.00 today not a bad gain. Rates have gone down in Australia since 2000 & digital has not helped. Clients thing it is cheaper to shoot digital???? When I talk to fellow photographers here in Sydney they are lets say , NOT HAPPY. Almost all the wedding & portrait photographers have ditched MF period & have gone to DSLR ( Canon is the winner here ). We Use Leaf here & the ZD so I am a Mamiya user. One reason I use Mamiya is that it is an affordable system. I also use Canon. When I talk to photographers here most use DSLR & really unless we as photographers start making more money that will not change. Clients are expecting more for less money these days. When I read about MF dropping from 20,000/yr to 5000 in 4 years are we to be surprised. Please anyone from other countries tell me a better story. I am not complaining and I am telling you what I hear from fellow photographers, as we do a lot of talks around the country. In the past 3 years Contax & Bronica are train wrecks in the MF world. If anything this new ZD price will help MFD for all the players.
Denis
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122772\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Market is quite difficult over here as well. A recent study of the Fotografen Federatie (the largest 'union') revealed the average annual gross income of photographers in the Netherlands (mind you a top5 country of most wealthy countries per capita) is around 18K euros.
This says a lot.
I could not believe what I was reading when I saw it. I still have difficulties believing it is that bad. Even when this report is more negative than reality due to whatever reason it does indicate the state of professional photography is not flourishing.
I do find it very hard to aqcuire and retain clients.
Fortunately I don't hear the typical phrases like, 'Oh, but we do have a digital camera over here, so if necessary our secretaries assistant can do it as well.'
I think you really have to like doing this when keeping on working professionally.
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deleted
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In Europe you can now buy 3 cheap new cars for the price of a P45+ system. Maybe cars have got cheaper
Edmund
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why the hell should France not been an interesting market for Sinar? And why "of course"???
Edmund, France is not my country of responsibilities: that's why I am not there. But I bet the right people representing Sinar shall be.
Thierry
I think there's the Paris MF meet, which is yearly, and where usually people come to show their wares. Of course, France is not an interesting market for Sinar.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122658\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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What no-one seems to have pointed out is that the number of digital backs which sold last year is double the number of MF camera bodies. In other words, a lot of photographers must be using used bodies.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122650\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
yep. I'm on my P45+ (upgraded from P45) but its still on my 10 year old Contax 645 body. there's simply nothing out there to make me think of investing in a better/newer body.
personally I don't care for the look or feel of H series Hasselblad, and, sorry for saying this, but the HY6 just looks silly and handles poorly with that ridiculous star-trek control panel/ hand grip. who the heck designed that? (and yes I have held one, before you ask)
I'd love to get a new 2007 body with 2007 digital quality lenses, to go with my $30k back, but there just isnt anything out there....
Hopefully Mamiya/Phase can deliver the goods soon.
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then I can only suggest you to hold it in your hands once again, but not just for 5 minutes (I'm sure you didn't have more the first time): IMO, it's the ultimate comfort in handling combined with the right balance in your hand. None MF camera I have hold yet can match the balance (and weight) together with this handling. Whatever one thinks about the control panel.
Best regards,
Thierry
sorry for saying this, but the HY6 just looks silly and handles poorly with that ridiculous star-trek control panel/ hand grip. who the heck designed that? (and yes I have held one, before you ask)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122820\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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In Europe you can now buy 3 cheap new cars for the price of a P45+ system. Maybe cars have got cheaper
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122785\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It's not what it costs, it's what will it make. If I thought buying a Phaseone and camera system would earn me an extra £30k + I would buy one. I can't see how it would do that. I'm shure it would earn me more than I could with 3 small cars though....then again, Taxi anyone?
Kevin.
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The cost of a state-of-the-art MFDB is about 10x the cost of a basic 35mm DSLR, such as the Canon 5D, is it not?
Hasn't a similar price differential always applied between 35mm film camera bodies and MF film camera bodies? What's changed?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122769\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No it hasn't always applied to MF and 35mm film cameras. A Hasselblad 500cm has never been 10x the cost of say a Nikon F5. The cost of the new digital MF equipment is one of the reason MF is dying. Unless it gets cheaper and encourages more people to use it rather than their megapixel 35mm FF cameras it'll get even more expensive. As the numbers of MF shooters dwindle even further the back makers will have to increase their prices even more to maintain their margins and the gear will be even more of a niche market for them. Eventually they could even disappear if they start losing money.
I'm sure the new Mamiya back will give perfectly adequate quality for many pro's out there. I just hope Mamiya deliver what they promise. If they do it will be a huge boost for medium format photography.
Barrie
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In Europe you can now buy 3 cheap new cars for the price of a P45+ system. Maybe cars have got cheaper
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=0\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
this is a ridiculous argument......if you want to get into the cement business, you will have to buy a cement truck which will cost you more then 2 P45+....and buying two P45s will not help you pave a driveway.....
the P45 is a high end specialized tool....and as such it is fairly cheap.....i don't think you understand the cost involved in shooting 4x5 or 8x10 film ! for a studio that needs that resolution, a P45 is a HUGE money saver....
i don't need a P45...my P30 cost me less then half of a P45 and it is the best image capturing device i have ever owned....and it will be the cheapest by next year....
if your work cannot support the 500$-700$/per month in payments.....well then you don't need the back! very simple....if you are fine shooting with a 5D then what is the rush to get a DMF back! there are many thing the back won't do as well anyway....
btw: do mercedes prices come down because you can buy a fiat for less then 10.000? you get what you pay for....and some people would never spend the money on a mercedes....
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All I can say is I'm on set right now with a H2/P30 with the clothing designer over my shoulder exclaiming how good the shots are. Here in NYC there's a healthy MFDB market. Discerning clients can see the difference and are willing to pay for it. We're halfway thru a 50 shot women's swimware lookbook. Life is good and so are the bikinis...
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Reflecting the impact of high production cost on a given market only is a business practise unheard of. There is zero reason why Europeans alone should pay for those higher company taxes.
Not really. Taxes are a real expense, and market segments and geographic locations have different tolerance to prices. A good example is pricing of cars in Europe. As Finland has over 100% car tax (you read that right, one hundred percent), car manufacturers have to sell cars really cheap there to be able to sell any. This results in Finland being one of the cheapest places to buy cars in Europe, if you don't have to pay the Finnish car tax - ie. if you are not a Finn. Restrictions on importing/exporting cars within Europe make cross-border competition of little concern.
Even then, the price discrepancy of MFDBs between EU and US is glaring. I've thought about the pricing and the only reason for it I can come up with is that the US market has less tolerance for higher prices. At today's exchange rate, a PhaseOne P45+ pricing in the UK would be 37,000USD (no VAT included). I know nothing about the business in the US, so others are more qualified to give their opinion how 37,000USD for a P45+ sounds - I found a USD price of 22,000 which would mean a hefty 68% premium. (And what's up with MFDB pricing apparently being a state secret, can't find prices anywhere?)
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Not really. Taxes are a real expense, and market segments and geographic locations have different tolerance to prices. A good example is pricing of cars in Europe. As Finland has over 100% car tax (you read that right, one hundred percent), car manufacturers have to sell cars really cheap there to be able to sell any. This results in Finland being one of the cheapest places to buy cars in Europe, if you don't have to pay the Finnish car tax - ie. if you are not a Finn. Restrictions on importing/exporting cars within Europe make cross-border competition of little concern.
Even then, the price discrepancy of MFDBs between EU and US is glaring. I've thought about the pricing and the only reason for it I can come up with is that the US market has less tolerance for higher prices. At today's exchange rate, a PhaseOne P45+ pricing in the UK would be 37,000USD (no VAT included). I know nothing about the business in the US, so others are more qualified to give their opinion how 37,000USD for a P45+ sounds - I found a USD price of 22,000 which would mean a hefty 68% premium. (And what's up with MFDB pricing apparently being a state secret, can't find prices anywhere?)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122851\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Feppe,
Like you I've been puzzled by the difference in the US and EU pricing for MFDB's. It appears that the market in the US is more open with less controls. Maybe I'm wrong on this. However, I wonder if this restrictive pricing behaviour is even still legal in the EU anymore? I don't think I'm allowed to purchase a MFDB from whatever country I choose!
Barrie
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btw: do mercedes prices come down because you can buy a fiat for less then 10.000? you get what you pay for....and some people would never spend the money on a mercedes....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122834\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
ähm.. I really hope Phase and Hassi and Leafe are not near the same as mercedes in price, quality and value, because if you really ment that statement, than the backs would be really poor value for money. I know mercedes really good, and yes they produced nice cars. Important "produced" , because that is 5 years ago...
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Feppe,
Like you I've been puzzled by the difference in the US and EU pricing for MFDB's. It appears that the market in the US is more open with less controls. Maybe I'm wrong on this. However, I wonder if this restrictive pricing behaviour is even still legal in the EU anymore? I don't think I'm allowed to purchase a MFDB from whatever country I choose!
Barrie
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122855\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
There was a discussion about this on this board earlier. The one market rules for Europe do suggest that agreements - cartels, essentially - to limit distribution through contracts are illegal. This doesn't hold for imports outside of Europe, though. But Europeans should be able to buy their Phase backs from any country in Europe without restrictions, which I believe is not the case these days due to exclusive distribution rights - which are illegal in almost all cases, and I'm sure they are in this case.
The problem with getting the issue fixed is that somebody has to take one of the MFDB manufacturers and/or resalers to court, as they are unlikely to relinquish control just by seeing the laws that make it illegal. Of course properly applied pressure and grassroots campaigning, blame and shame, etc. might be effective as well, if they are not responsive.
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Feppe,
Like you I've been puzzled by the difference in the US and EU pricing for MFDB's. It appears that the market in the US is more open with less controls. Maybe I'm wrong on this. However, I wonder if this restrictive pricing behaviour is even still legal in the EU anymore? I don't think I'm allowed to purchase a MFDB from whatever country I choose!
Barrie
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122855\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
What puzzles me most is that in Japan, a P45+ costs 5.200.000 Yen list price, which is about 42.000 US$... that nearly twice as much as the price you mention above. From what I have heard, it seems difficult to negociate much below list price around here.
The Japanese price makes sense relative to the EU price in Euro, but if Phase is not loosing money selling it at 22.000 US$ in the US, then they/their dealers are making totally outrageous margins in EU and Japan.
Another thing that amazes me even more is the price of the Leaf backs in Japan. A A75s goes for 4.400.000 list price, although there is zero reason why Leaf would be affected by the very strong Euro/Yen change rate. They have simply aligned their Japanese prices with Phase (considering the slightly lower market value of their 33MP offering compared to Phase 39 MP), although they get their sensors from Canada and much of the rest locally in Israel. It would appear that they make even more money on photographers in Japan...
Very concretely, I could consider investing into a P45+ at 22.000 US$, but there is no way I would think of paying 42.000 US$... Considering a 3 years plan, that makes a 7.000 US$ difference a year, not even considering the cost of credit.
Mamiya is going to hit those guys hard everywhere, but even more so in Japan. The Mamiya back goes for 1.000.000 Yen here, which is 3 to 4 times cheaper than the corresponding Leaf/Phase 22 MP offerings.
Cheers,
Bernard
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What puzzles me most is that in Japan, a P45+ costs 5.200.000 Yen list price, which is about 42.000 US$... that nearly twice as much as the price you mention above. From what I have heard, it seems difficult to negociate much below list price around here.
The Japanese price makes sense relative to the EU price in Euro, but if Phase is not loosing money selling it at 22.000 US$ in the US, then they/their dealers are making totally outrageous margins in EU and Japan.
Another thing that amazes me even more is the price of the Leaf backs in Japan. A A75s goes for 4.400.000 list price, although there is zero reason why Leaf would be affected by the very strong Euro/Yen change rate. They have simply aligned their Japanese prices with Phase (considering the slightly lower market value of their 33MP offering compared to Phase 39 MP), although they get their sensors from Canada and much of the rest locally in Israel. It would appear that they make even more money on photographers in Japan...
Very concretely, I could consider investing into a P45+ at 22.000 US$, but there is no way I would think of paying 42.000 US$... Considering a 3 years plan, that makes a 7.000 US$ difference a year, not even considering the cost of credit.
Mamiya is going to hit those guys hard everywhere, but even more so in Japan. The Mamiya back goes for 1.000.000 Yen here, which is 3 to 4 times cheaper than the corresponding Leaf/Phase 22 MP offerings.
Cheers,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122874\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well, this is why I bought my Canon 30D and two lenses when I visited the US. It was much cheaper than buying in Europe, even with the outrageous customs and duties when importing it myself.
For those of us who don't care to pay the euro premium, buying an MFDB back in the US is considerably cheaper, even when factoring in the price of the trip. Just make sure the warranty is international. How messed up is that for a European product sold in European markets to Europeans?
Ok, I need to go to bed before my blood pressure goes up further.
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No it hasn't always applied to MF and 35mm film cameras. A Hasselblad 500cm has never been 10x the cost of say a Nikon F5. The cost of the new digital MF equipment is one of the reason MF is dying. Unless it gets cheaper and encourages more people to use it rather than their megapixel 35mm FF cameras it'll get even more expensive. As the numbers of MF shooters dwindle even further the back makers will have to increase their prices even more to maintain their margins and the gear will be even more of a niche market for them. Eventually they could even disappear if they start losing money.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122830\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It depends on which 35mm film cameras you are comparing with which MF film cameras. My first MF film camera was a second hand Fuji GSW690 III 6x9cm format, fully manual with a fixed 65mm lens. The new price at the time was A$3000-3500, about 10x the price of a Minolta Dynax 5 with included 28-80 zoom lens.
I remember thinking at the time that the price difference seemed very excessive, especially considering that the cheaper camera had all the automatic functions as well as interchangeability of lenses.
A P45 is less than 10x the price of a Canon 1Ds2.
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ähm.. I really hope Phase and Hassi and Leafe are not near the same as mercedes in price, quality and value, because if you really ment that statement, than the backs would be really poor value for money. I know mercedes really good, and yes they produced nice cars. Important "produced" , because that is 5 years ago...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=0\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
well you could also argue that hasselblad used to produce much better quality cameras and lenses....or that leaf used to be the leader of the pack.....
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Not only has the number of professional photographers shrunk, but as well the number of MF systems sold in the world, dramatically. There is also a serious study which put the figures of MF bodies sold in 2003 at some 20'000 units (worlwide), then 12'000 in 2004, 8'000 in 2005 and may be just over 5'000 in 2006.
Thierry
The years listed happen to coincide with the 1Ds, D2X, 1Ds2, 5D and D2Xs. Coincidence? Or is that where the medium format market went? For a studio shooting medium format that couldn't justify investing $20k$-$30k in medium format digital back, the high resolutions dSLR offer(ed) a viable option.
As for the number of photographers... what those lists don't capture is how many new people enter running a business out of a second bedroom. I'll agree that number of large studio is declining, but I bet there are a lot of new, part-time photographers running under the radar (so to speak).
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There was a discussion about this on this board earlier. The one market rules for Europe do suggest that agreements - cartels, essentially - to limit distribution through contracts are illegal. This doesn't hold for imports outside of Europe, though. But Europeans should be able to buy their Phase backs from any country in Europe without restrictions, which I believe is not the case these days due to exclusive distribution rights - which are illegal in almost all cases, and I'm sure they are in this case.
The problem with getting the issue fixed is that somebody has to take one of the MFDB manufacturers and/or resalers to court, as they are unlikely to relinquish control just by seeing the laws that make it illegal. Of course properly applied pressure and grassroots campaigning, blame and shame, etc. might be effective as well, if they are not responsive.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122872\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No, that is not necessary. You can report suspected market manipulation or other breaches of European competition law directly to the commission that can investigate this. You can even do that via email.
Naturally you can take them to court but that would be going at it the hard way.
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Well, this is why I bought my Canon 30D and two lenses when I visited the US. It was much cheaper than buying in Europe, even with the outrageous customs and duties when importing it myself.
For those of us who don't care to pay the euro premium, buying an MFDB back in the US is considerably cheaper, even when factoring in the price of the trip. Just make sure the warranty is international. How messed up is that for a European product sold in European markets to Europeans?
Ok, I need to go to bed before my blood pressure goes up further.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122878\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think you might find if you did fly to the US to buy a MFDB that: 1) The dealer you approached wouldn't sell you one if they knew you were from the EU, because their contract with the back manufacturer forbids them to sell outside their geographic area. & 2) The warranty would be for the US only.
I don't think you'd have trouble buying any other sort of photographic gear with an international warranty.
Cheers
Barrie
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No, that is not necessary. You can report suspected market manipulation or other breaches of European competition law directly to the commission that can investigate this. You can even do that via email.
Naturally you can take them to court but that would be going at it the hard way.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=122932\")
Thanks for the tip! quick googling... "The Consumer Liaison Office in the Directorate General for Competition is responsible for receiving information and requests concerning competition problems faced by end consumers and customers."
Here is a contact form to report potential abuses:
[a href=\"http://ec.europa.eu/comm/competition/forms/consumer_form.html]http://ec.europa.eu/comm/competition/forms...sumer_form.html[/url]
I hope someone with first-hand knowledge of restrictive competitive practices and contractual agreements within European MFDB market would file a complaint using the above form.
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I think you might find if you did fly to the US to buy a MFDB that: 1) The dealer you approached wouldn't sell you one if they knew you were from the EU, because their contract with the back manufacturer forbids them to sell outside their geographic area. & 2) The warranty would be for the US only.
I don't think you'd have trouble buying any other sort of photographic gear with an international warranty.
Cheers
Barrie
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=122936\")
1) Such restrictions are easy to get around, even if the dealer is not supportive.
2) According to the following UK site, Phase for example, has a 3-year worldwide warranty:
[a href=\"http://www.directdigitalimaging.com/3yearwarranty.html]http://www.directdigitalimaging.com/3yearwarranty.html[/url]
Is the warranty different when bought from the US?
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1) Such restrictions are easy to get around, even if the dealer is not supportive.
2) According to the following UK site, Phase for example, has a 3-year worldwide warranty:
http://www.directdigitalimaging.com/3yearwarranty.html (http://www.directdigitalimaging.com/3yearwarranty.html)
Is the warranty different when bought from the US?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122945\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I would very much favour a system of dealers and for instance a factory store.
That way people that would really want the dealer support can go via a dealer.
People that just want to buy the thing and have basic warranty and basic tech support can go to the factory store. RMA and warranty claims have to be send to the factory directly naturally.
This would be the fairest way giving everybody an option on how to get the equipment they want and how much support they will receive.
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Are the geo limitations imposed by Phaseone also present with Hassy?
I see H3D for sales on ebay on a regular basis, do they offers include a valid garantee independantly from where you are based?
If that were the case, this alone would be a huge incentive in favour of Hassy.
Regards,
Bernard
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Even then, the price discrepancy of MFDBs between EU and US is glaring. I've thought about the pricing and the only reason for it I can come up with is that the US market has less tolerance for higher prices. At today's exchange rate, a PhaseOne P45+ pricing in the UK would be 37,000USD (no VAT included). I know nothing about the business in the US, so others are more qualified to give their opinion how 37,000USD for a P45+ sounds - I found a USD price of 22,000 which would mean a hefty 68% premium. (And what's up with MFDB pricing apparently being a state secret, can't find prices anywhere?)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122851\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I live in the UK and the US, and I've bought two P45's and a P45+
neither of these prices are right at all.
after negotiating hard and long, I can say that the UK price is too high, and the US price is nowhere near that low.
in the US you might now get a regular P45 for $22,000 but not a P45+ for sure.
jus felt this should be corrected before it becomes accepted fact.
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In Europe you can now buy 3 cheap new cars for the price of a P45+ system. Maybe cars have got cheaper
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122785\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
This is true, but most people people are charging some sort of fees to their clients to pay off that P45+. In the long run, the P45+ is MUCH cheaper than film. My P45+ will be paid in full in 18 months with money that would have ALL gone to film, processing, and polaroid previously.
As for the 3 cheap new cars for 30K, maybe you can start up a pizza delivery service, because it's going to be hard to get them paid for in a photography business.
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I live in the UK and the US, and I've bought two P45's and a P45+
neither of these prices are right at all.
after negotiating hard and long, I can say that the UK price is too high, and the US price is nowhere near that low.
in the US you might now get a regular P45 for $22,000 but not a P45+ for sure.
jus felt this should be corrected before it becomes accepted fact.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=123045\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Actually, you can get a P45+ for around $22K or even less in the US if you play your cards right. The little secret is that you first have to go on a public forum and announce that you have been looking at both the P45+ and the H3D-39, but are now ready to buy an H3D-39. Phase cannot stand to lose a customer to Hasselblad. They will do anything to win. Too bad this charade needs to be pursued.
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My P45+ will be paid in full in 18 months with money that would have ALL gone to film, processing, and polaroid previously.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=123056\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Film, processing and polaroid were all billable items. None of them "cost' you anything. In addition they became a profit center after markup. Very poor comparison.
Thre only true way to figure ROI on a digital back (or camera) is to total your charges for frame fees, rental fees (if you charge them) and perhaps file fees.
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Film, processing and polaroid were all billable items. None of them "cost' you anything. In addition they became a profit center after markup. Very poor comparison.
Thre only true way to figure ROI on a digital back (or camera) is to total your charges for frame fees, rental fees (if you charge them) and perhaps file fees.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=123099\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well sort of...
But not having the burden of film and processing helps cash flow and frees up more possibilities to experiment with new ideas at no / lower cost.
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Film, processing and polaroid were all billable items. None of them "cost' you anything. In addition they became a profit center after markup. Very poor comparison.
Thre only true way to figure ROI on a digital back (or camera) is to total your charges for frame fees, rental fees (if you charge them) and perhaps file fees.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=123099\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The check I write out for the P45+ system loan is about the same as the check I used to write out for film, processing, and polaroid each month. It is a pretty simple comparison.
It works the same as Film. The P45+ is a profit center already (at least as much as film was). After the system is paid off in total, it will pay huge dividends. Somehow with ten years of film I never made my last payment.
"rental fees (if you charge them)"....
I don't personally know anyone who does not charge something for the back. It is either a straight line item, or it a capture setup fee, or frame rate that adds up to that 400-600 dollar daily camera rental from the place down the street. It is absolutely a billable item.
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Like Eric said this is all very billable. If you are not billing plenty for the service and equipment you are truly foolish. It's a major part of what you do time wise and expense wise. More time is easily spent in post than the shoot. You can not give this away and stay in business let alone current with the industry. I don't care much about the price of the back and camera. What I do care about is dependability, flexibility, compatibility and service. My Hasselblad back (Imacon 132c) is a critical part of what I do. It works day in and day out. Best piece of hardware I have ever owned, and I look forward to upgrading it when that makes sense.
Alex
Digital Tech and Photographic Assistant Pittsburgh
http://alexrjones.com/alexrjones/digitaltech.html (http://alexrjones.com/alexrjones/digitaltech.html)
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The check I write out for the P45+ system loan is about the same as the check I used to write out for film, processing, and polaroid each month. It is a pretty simple comparison.
It works the same as Film. The P45+ is a profit center already (at least as much as film was). After the system is paid off in total, it will pay huge dividends. Somehow with ten years of film I never made my last payment.
"rental fees (if you charge them)"....
I don't personally know anyone who does not charge something for the back. It is either a straight line item, or it a capture setup fee, or frame rate that adds up to that 400-600 dollar daily camera rental from the place down the street. It is absolutely a billable item.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=123133\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You think you will still be using that back in ten years? I don't. That business model is dead and buried.
As to rental fees or capture fees or frame fees equaling 400-600 bucks, that is totally dependant on the market and the project. In my market where a big day is one to three major interior images, no combination of frame fees etc. is ever going to get to 400 bucks, never did even in the day of shooting 4x5 film. If I or my peers in our market billed for a back rental (or simlar) for every day of a shoot it would be our last job in the market. Rates are falling, not rising. Clients are caring less about quality and more about price. One size does not fit all in this case.
Don't get me wrong, I would love to shoot a P-45 (if somehow I could get the same FOV as a 12 mm on 35 format) if it would actually pay for itself. The reality is that there will never be a decent ROI for that back in my market. Now the Mamiya...maybe....
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Very few backs will be in use after 10 years eventhough they will still work for the most part. You upgrade every so often when it makes sense. The concept remains the same and Eric's point remains fully valid. You charge for whatever service you provide.
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I'd like to say few things about the price of ZD back and the other brands.
This is a 22MP 38x46mm at 7.000$
From other company the price is around 15.000$ more expensive.
What do you get for this 15.000$ :
- a bigger screen. Right but today I can buy a 20" apple cinema display screen for 600$ or the 30" for 1800$, sounds that the 1" in MF is really expensive.
- 2 more bits. Here I don't know what this 2 bits would cost but if it's the same idea as the price of an inch... you get me
We all knew that DMF back are expensive. Some could afford it and some could just dream at it.
The prices where really close. So even if we had the feeling that is was high price to get in it sounded normal in a way.
Now I doubt...
I don't say that the Phase or Leaf or Sinar prices are not justified, they're sure not because of the screen, I don't buy that.
R&D could be a part of the cost difference... May be but for how long Phase is in Digital?
BTW I am just asking. I know that sometime if you want a car than can pull you to 305km/h compare to the one that goes at 300 you have to pay huge bucks.
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Thierry -
YOU LOST YOUR BET
What were you betting ?
Edmund
why the hell should France not been an interesting market for Sinar? And why "of course"???
Edmund, France is not my country of responsibilities: that's why I am not there. But I bet the right people representing Sinar shall be.
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122805\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I LOST IT, damn!
Let's speak about the "what" when we meet.
Thierry
Thierry -
YOU LOST YOUR BET
What were you betting ?
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=124503\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Yes, yes, I always like discussing beer over a beer
Edmund
I LOST IT, damn!
Let's speak about the "what" when we meet.
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=124504\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Rental prices...
Here is a big rental place in NYC.
http://www.trecrental.com/ (http://www.trecrental.com/)
Leaf Aptus22 Digital Back (H1 system) View
On Line Price $569.00
Phase One P30 Digital Back (H1 system) View Add On Line Price $649.00
Phase One P45 Digital Back (H1 system) View On Line Price $729.00
Figure lens at 50/day or as low as 35/day and you are talking some serious coin a day....Factor in hard drives monitors and laptops.....Now I know that we all take jobs for 2 grand a day and they might not have the budget for 1000 in rental fees...But we need to educate our clients. They backs are coming out every 2.5 years. Computers should be dumped every 2 years. The client gets a High Res scan every frame you take and they get it right NOW and it is all backed up safe and secure. That is worth something.
Ken
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These rental prices are ridiculous.
I don't want to say this too loudly, but what do you do when you need to learn the back, and more importantly the software ? Or do you people always get it right the first time ? I have taken about 3 months to figure out how to use C1 properly, I mean creatively ...
What do you do when you need to test model/makeup? What do you do when you are doing editorial work on a low budget ?
I may be the least professional member on this forum, but while owning a system may make sense for me the rental fees for Hassy/Phase/Leaf do not. There is such a thing as pricing more than the market can bear.
I can understand that people want to use MF equipment for themselves and their clients, because they want to provide that quality. But I wonder how many of you can really look a client in the face and tell him that he MUST pay such obscene rental bills.
In addition, if the price difference between renting a back is $2000 over three days, I can imagine this gives a huge advantage to those who do not need to rent - or those who have the ***talent to get the job done*** with a $2.5K Canon. And I'm willing to bet that every fashion guy on this forum can do a very good job with the Canon, so the younger competition with good retouching skills might be able to do an even better job.
Edmund
Rental prices...
Here is a big rental place in NYC.
http://www.trecrental.com/ (http://www.trecrental.com/)
Leaf Aptus22 Digital Back (H1 system) View
On Line Price $569.00
Phase One P30 Digital Back (H1 system) View Add On Line Price $649.00
Phase One P45 Digital Back (H1 system) View On Line Price $729.00
Figure lens at 50/day or as low as 35/day and you are talking some serious coin a day....Factor in hard drives monitors and laptops.....Now I know that we all take jobs for 2 grand a day and they might not have the budget for 1000 in rental fees...But we need to educate our clients. They backs are coming out every 2.5 years. Computers should be dumped every 2 years. The client gets a High Res scan every frame you take and they get it right NOW and it is all backed up safe and secure. That is worth something.
Ken
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=124716\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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These rental prices are ridiculous.
I don't want to say this too loudly, but what do you do when you need to learn the back, and more importantly the software ? Or do you people always get it right the first time ? I have taken about 3 months to figure out how to use C1 properly, I mean creatively ...
What do you do when you need to test model/makeup? What do you do when you are doing editorial work on a low budget ?
I may be the least professional member on this forum, but while owning a system may make sense for me the rental fees for Hassy/Phase/Leaf do not. There is such a thing as pricing more than the market can bear.
I can understand that people want to use MF equipment for themselves and their clients, because they want to provide that quality. But I wonder how many of you can really look a client in the face and tell him that he MUST pay such obscene rental bills.
In addition, if the price difference between renting a back is $2000 over three days, I can imagine this gives a huge advantage to those who do not need to rent - or those who have the ***talent to get the job done*** with a $2.5K Canon. And I'm willing to bet that every fashion guy on this forum can do a very good job with the Canon, so the younger competition with good retouching skills might be able to do an even better job.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=124780\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I cannot vouch for these amounts but over here rental amounts are in the 300-500euro range for a 22-39Mp back (wich is appr. 400-700USD). This is with body and 'kitlens'.
Learning curve is at your expense (as it should).
If you hire once a month it is starting to make sense to buy one yourself.