Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Digital Image Processing => Topic started by: gehle on May 23, 2007, 09:42:00 pm
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Though I like much of what CS3 (both PS & Bridge) have become I am becoming more & more frustrated with the liitle issues that show themselves in a "get the job out the door" situation. I am rushing through a 3 shot lifestyle shoot of about 600 captures that is causing both Birdge & PS to stubble at times. This never happened with CS2. My mistake was taking CS2 of this particular workstation, so I didn't have a fall back.
I will being doing some task and then the app (either now, was just Bridge a couple weeks ago) will just disappear - basically crashes without any dialogs/error report sender/etc. I am also amazed at how slow a batch rename takes in CS3 - I mean crazy slow to what is was in CS2.
Win XP/SP2, 3gig processor, 3gig ram, lots of SATA & ATA drives - 80 gig scratch, etc.,etc. This PC never saw the beta.
So is it me or are there some bugs in the bushes? I am going to re-install CS2 as soon as I can because I just can't deal with this crap when trying to get a job out and out fast in this case.
Where or who do I tell? Schewe - Do you know if Adobe is paying attention?
Ken Gehle
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My mistake was taking CS2 of this particular workstation, so I didn't have a fall back.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=119299\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well, YEAH....what do you expect? It's a whole new ballgame so why would you even consider making a major aplication change in the middle of a job? More the fool, you...for changing from a known, tested and stable workflow to a whole new application environement. It will take time (and care) to make a switch from CS2 to CS3 professionally.
While I understand your frustration, you basically said it, you didn't have a fall back. Whose fualt is that?
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Well, YEAH....what do you expect? It's a whole new ballgame so why would you even consider making a major aplication change in the middle of a job? More the fool, you...for changing from a known, tested and stable workflow to a whole new application environement. It will take time (and care) to make a switch from CS2 to CS3 professionally.
While I understand your frustration, you basically said it, you didn't have a fall back. Whose fualt is that?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=119301\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Sorry Schewe ( (and, yes I know your first name), but it's time you stopped trying to defend Adobe, and admit that CS3 is not ready for prime time. On my laptop, which never had the beta installed, ACR won't open in Bridge some of the time, on my desktop, after uninstalling the beta as per Adobe instructions, CS2 would not open! Adobe recommended a full uninstall and reinstall, which would have taken all my preferences, actions etc. with it. I chose a repair install, and now Bridge will not allow a "Open withCS2" command. This is more then the a photographer, who is not a computer guru should have to put up with. The CS3 release is nothing but another "beta", and we are it's guinea
pigs. Shame full, as is your "blame it on the user" routine.
Carl
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Let's not bluster at one another?
1. As Jeff said, though he put it pretty gruffly, there's no reason to delete CS2. It doesn't take that much space & doesn't conflict with anything.
2. Go to Adobe Forums http://www.adobeforums.com (http://www.adobeforums.com), specific to your CS3 platform, & there are lots of gurus & guru wannabes to help with problems.
3. With a new program, Save often. I've experienced only one kind of crash, doing a particular thing with a new version of a plug-in.
4. Jeff often posts references to problems that Adobe knows about on PSNews.
For some of us, Adobe ain't the problem. Canon hasn't issued a UB PS printer plug-in, & with an Intel Mac you have to shift back to CS2 or over to Rosetta to print that way.
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Since I work for a large software corporation doing complex stuff, I perfectly know how difficult it is to release a bug free large upgrade like CS3. I am sure that Adobe's engineers have been trying their very best to do things the right way, and that they will help you converging on quality if you can send them a reproducible scenario for your issue.
On the other hand, I have never found it particularly smart to call users who find bugs fools for trying to use a code level we claimed was ready for release. Jeff has a point that there might be more or less suitable timing for an upgrade, but the fault remains on Adobe's side.
I personnally always take the blame and try to listen, even if somebody else coded the application that unfortunately still has issues. It has worked with my customers so far.
It would appear that Adobe's marketing, oops I mean Jeff, believes in a different approach. This really looks arrogant to me. Unfortunately, this is not an isolated case, and the way Adobe treats its faithful customers has been questionable at best these past few months. I am for instance thinking about the PC to Mac migration problem I have been facing in Japan.
Some of the engineers designing these great products must be sad to be "represented" in such a poor fashion. Think how bad it would be if Adobe were close to losing money...
Regards,
Bernard
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Ok only two small comments.
First of CS3 wasn't totally ready and should have never been released. For myself I have way more problem with bridge than Photoshop itself, but these problems are annyoing.
Secondly why are so many people defending Adobe ? I mean sorry, but for so much freaking money I expect a good quality from the start up. Since when is it common or allowed to bring out software fast and than have to fix it later ? It's funny, that in the software appartment a view companies think so. ( from windows, over gamers, to other programs) ... This is just sad. Will be funny when the car industry picks this up. When we probably can't drive with our new cars the first 3 months, because they forgot the breaks...
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There are lots of threads that I could post this on ... but since this is the most recent ... I'd like to add my voice to question what's going on with Bridge.... and are Adobe trying to force us into Lightroom?... here is a screen grab of a file and how bridge displays it .. I have synchronised all of the colour settings firstly by creating a profile in PS and then setting it universally from Bridge ... this makes the browser in Bridge absolutely useless as far as the final tweaking of a job. Note how the bridge preview is a lot warmer.
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Well, YEAH....what do you expect? It's a whole new ballgame so why would you even consider making a major aplication change in the middle of a job? More the fool, you...for changing from a known, tested and stable workflow to a whole new application environement. It will take time (and care) to make a switch from CS2 to CS3 professionally.
While I understand your frustration, you basically said it, you didn't have a fall back. Whose fualt is that?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=119301\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well that is a great response. Sure I could have jumped to one of my other machines that still has CS2 (Yes Jeff - I own two PS licenses - could have had even 3 - remember me? I was the guy at the Print academy in Atlanta that answered the question "when did PS 1 release?" and won the copy of CS2 Win which you handed to me at the back of the room. You were so nice on that particular day).
This job I am running through is a tiny one in my world so I just thought I could run it through CS3. Well, silly me for thinking that. As wonderful as the features in CS3 are, this is by far the worst release stability wise of PS have ever used - I started on version 3 and have owned/use every version except 5.5. Cs@ goes back on this workstation ASAP so thjat it can handle my typical, dayin/dayout work. And I will patiently wait for ver. 10.01 to show up before I give it the work that CS2 handled.
Thanks to those who came to may defense of this unexpected and harsh reply. It sure validates that I am not alone in my experience.
Ken Gehle
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There are lots of threads that I could post this on ... but since this is the most recent ... I'd like to add my voice to question what's going on with Bridge.... and are Adobe trying to force us into Lightroom?... here is a screen grab of a file and how bridge displays it .. I have synchronised all of the colour settings firstly by creating a profile in PS and then setting it universally from Bridge ... this makes the browser in Bridge absolutely useless as far as the final tweaking of a job. Note how the bridge preview is a lot warmer.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=119336\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Roskav, I read through your post several times but didn't see where you set ACR so that it doesn't apply auto adjustments to the thumb in Bridge (actually didn't even see whether you are referring to RAW thumbs), but thought I would bring it up as it was annoying to me. I remembered doing this in the beta but couldn't remember where--and when I did find it, wasn't sure if that was the correct place. If the auto adjustment isn't unchecked, it will be applied in the thumbs in Bridge and could be the difference you see in the 2 thumbs (assuming the other is from LR).
You may know this, may have done it---but I wasn't able to follow exactly what you were doing and thought I would at least mention it.
Diane
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I think in Jeff's Tough Love way, he's spot on. Its really not too bright to start a big job with a whole new version of Photoshop. I also find CS3,at least on my Intel Mac's to run beautifully!
Now to Bridge. Its kind of a train wreck IMHO, I simply don't use it anymore. I suspect this is the biggest issue users are having. And maybe its because I've become a big Lightroom nut and find a simple browser that has so many issues not worth my time anymore. I'd love to see Bridge become a first class citizen in the Adobe suite, but its not there yet.
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I think in Jeff's Tough Love way, he's spot on. Its really not too bright to start a big job with a whole new version of Photoshop. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=119358\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
This is a small job, even with 600 images where 45 will be shown to the client, so I am not sure where "big job" comes from. To call me "not too bright" is pretty offensive in my book. Sure I made the mistake to expect a 10th generation program to be a little more bullet proof than it is (and I suspect that most of the problems are in the front end: Bridge) but you guys really take the cake in defending a program that should be better than it is.
I'm done here.
Ken Gehle
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This is a small job, even with 600 images where 45 will be shown to the client, so I am not sure where "big job" comes from. To call me "not too bright" is pretty offensive in my book. Sure I made the mistake to expect a 10th generation program to be a little more bullet proof than it is (and I suspect that most of the problems are in the front end: Bridge) but you guys really take the cake in defending a program that should be better than it is.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=119374\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Sorry about the not to bright. A poor choice or words, especially after the tough love post of Jeffs. I'm sorry.
Big job, small job, its a job. I didn't mean to imply anything other than, its usually a good idea to give a new application a through test on non critical images before going head first with real jobs when its possible, as you've found out, there are issues.
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I think in Jeff's Tough Love way[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=119358\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Tough Love or "Tude." Grand-Poo-Bah-Tude, at that. (Got to luv 'em.)
I can't believe any photographer in his right mind would upgrade to CS3 so quickly, especially in the middle of income producing workflow. How brave (or masochistic) to post such a snafu here. I've been in business for almost 30 years and I know quite a few career photographers. None of us are interested in jumping off a cliff with no parachute. Haven't these lessons already been learned (for years now)?
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None of us are interested in jumping off a cliff with no parachute. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=119394\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I don't even want to jump off a cliff WITH a parachute. But your point is well taken and you said it better (and kinder) then a few or us.
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Hello Picnic .. thanks .. I was on my high horse .. had even got my local software guy over to the office and he couldn't find the cause... I had a look at the auto adjust .. but that applies to RAW files when you are opening them from bridge... I think!.... (pic was Tiff and left one was the exact pic being viewed in PS while the right was the same as a preview in bridge) HOWEVER .. I did a bit of messing on the laptop this eve .. and while I can't be sure as this screen isn't the best ... I think it might be "apply colour management" in "advanced" in Bridge ... and while this is a bit of an embarrassing DOH for me .. it's a bit odd that you have to go to the trouble of doing this .. I mean colour management is a pretty basic ask hmm?
Thanks again!
Ros
BTW I just don't find the folder/library system of Lightroom or Aperture flexible ... you can't get at your files with any other program .. and for that reason I wish they'd just give brige the same basic editing features without the library system.
R
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Hello Picnic .. thanks .. I was on my high horse .. had even got my local software guy over to the office and he couldn't find the cause... I had a look at the auto adjust .. but that applies to RAW files when you are opening them from bridge... I think!.... (pic was Tiff and left one was the exact pic being viewed in PS while the right was the same as a preview in bridge) HOWEVER .. I did a bit of messing on the laptop this eve .. and while I can't be sure as this screen isn't the best ... I think it might be "apply colour management" in "advanced" in Bridge ... and while this is a bit of an embarrassing DOH for me .. it's a bit odd that you have to go to the trouble of doing this .. I mean colour management is a pretty basic ask hmm?
Thanks again!
Ros
BTW I just don't find the folder/library system of Lightroom or Aperture flexible ... you can't get at your files with any other program .. and for that reason I wish they'd just give brige the same basic editing features without the library system.
R
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=119445\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
We all have those DOH moments LOL. I wondered if it was a RAW file or not--should have looked more closely because what I suggested was for RAW files.
I agree about LR's folder system---which is why I'm not using it--and because I always end up in PS anyhow, but Bridge can drive you crazy--a trainwreck like Andrew says. I'd prefer to use Bridge myself--as you.
Diane
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I can't believe any photographer in his right mind would upgrade to CS3 so quickly, especially in the middle of income producing workflow. How brave (or masochistic) to post such a snafu here. I've been in business for almost 30 years and I know quite a few career photographers. None of us are interested in jumping off a cliff with no parachute. Haven't these lessons already been learned (for years now)?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=119394\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I had moved on but then a friend told me of this post.
What? Did I say it was screwing up my job? Give me a break.
My problem is that this software is the worst release in stability issues that I have experienced in my PS "subscription". I have had the software for about a month and felt it was time to give it a serious, REAL world try. Excuse me if you feel you have to wait until whenever.
I have the parachute "dude" (there some Schewe) on other machines (CS, CS2) in my operation but please tell me why I shouldn't expect a ship version of a version 10 software to work without some serious (IMO) issues?
Now I REALLY am at of this post.
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Well, YEAH....what do you expect? It's a whole new ballgame so why would you even consider making a major aplication change in the middle of a job? More the fool, you...for changing from a known, tested and stable workflow to a whole new application environement. It will take time (and care) to make a switch from CS2 to CS3 professionally.
While I understand your frustration, you basically said it, you didn't have a fall back. Whose fualt is that?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=119301\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I totally agree Jeff, its the users fault for Adobe's FUBAR'D code
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I was the guy at the Print academy in Atlanta that answered the question "when did PS 1 release?" and won the copy of CS2 Win which you handed to me at the back of the room. You were so nice on that particular day).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=119341\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well, we did over 15 Print Academies last year so the cities and venues have kinda merged into one large dark room. I think I remember Atlanta...but I'm not sure-I know we had a lot of wine at Denis Reggie's that nite. (only because I have photos)
:~)
As wonderful as the features in CS3 are, this is by far the worst release stability wise of PS have ever used - I started on version 3 and have owned/use every version except 5.5
Then you either have a "selective memory" or you're blowing smoke...you don't remember Photoshop CS2 and Bridge 1.0.0? Bridge wasn't usable (by most people) until the 1.0.1 update that happened a couple of months after 1.0.0 was released. CS2 shipped end of April, 2005 and Bridge 1.0.1 was out by the end of the quarter-I wouldn't be surprised to see Bridge updated by the end of the quarter either. Bridge 1 didn't get "stable" until Bridge 1.0.4 (I guess you forgot about all the Bridge 1 updates and the problems with Adobe Updater, huh?)
I guess you also forgot that Photoshop 3.0 shipped with the beta expire code still in it requiring a recall of all the CDs and the release of Photoshop 3.0.1? Did you forget Photoshop 4 shipping with totally new behaviors that pissed off the entire industry? What about Photoshop 5's default setting to convert your images to sRGB upon open? Photoshop 6 had 2 or 3 updates. Photoshop 7 was pretty stable. But you seem to be lumping Photoshop, Camera Raw and Bridge into a single category. I've had ZERO problems with Photoshop CS3 and Camera Raw 4 and only a few problems with Bridge 2.0.0.
The biggest problem appears to be that Bridge 2 seems to struggle if your system memory is already fragmented when launched. So, I just launch Bridge 2 before Photoshop CS3 and make sure I don't have a ton of other apps open at the same time. Yes, I've had quits too. When it happens, I relaunch holding down command/option/shift and reset the preferences. Doing that has minimized Bridge 2 issues considerably.
But your original post wasn't one where you were asking for help, was it? You came into the forums to vent and blow off steam. Jumping into CS3 while wiping CS2 from the machine was pretty stupid, right? So you want to blame Adobe even though you know full well your problem really was you hadn't made the transition smoothly as yet. You didn't have a stable working environment so you wanted somebody else to blame.
If you didn't want my attention, why did you put my name in your OP? Your post was useless ranting...and I have no use for useless. Your system info is sketchy at best...the only known issues with Photoshop CS3 are with video drivers (are yours up to date?) and MSFT's 6.1 mouse driver (are you using a MSFT mouse?).
And my OP wasn't harsh or defensive of Adobe...you want harsh? What you did was stupid and unprofessional. It's your job to have a stable working environment with a workflow that is tested and reliable. Installing CS3 and wiping CS2 was stupid and unprofessional and you want somebody else besides yourself to blame. Sorry if this offends you but I suspect you know full well that it was stupid and unprofessional, right? And THAT was not Adobe's fault.
Win XP/SP2, 3gig processor, 3gig ram, lots of SATA & ATA drives - 80 gig scratch, etc.,etc. This PC never saw the beta.
Well, that's pretty south of useful...
If you want help, ask for help. But do the people you want to help you the service of asking real questions and providing the required info to make helping you something other than speculation.
You want my attention? Fine, but don't be surprised if my response isn't to your liking...what did you really expect dooode? Patting you on the head and telling you that what you did was Adobe's fault? I don't think so...
So, you want help or do you just want to piss and moan?
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Jeff, you are a classic, condescending asswipe. I feel sorry for you.
The guy did ask a question, regarding bugs. If his post was rant then you are Miss Manners. I've read his post several times and it didn't come off as a rant at all...it may be the way that you seem to personalize everything.
Tough love, Andrew?
Yeah, right.
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The guy did ask a question, regarding bugs.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=119571\")
If THAT was all he wanted...then here:
[a href=\"http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/mmform/index.cfm?name=wishform]Feature Request/Bug Report Form[/url]
But, I'm pretty sure that's not what he wanted...ya know?
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No, I don't know.
This forum is one of many places to ask questions. He mentioned your name in a query and you suggested he was a fool and then drove the point home further in your last post. Totally South of useful, as you like to say.
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Jeff, you are a classic, condescending, asswipe. I feel sorry for you.
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I think this kind of personal attack is OFF THE WALL, and has no place here. You can't assault some-one's integrity because they have a different take on a problem than you do. Readers of my posts will know that I don't necessarily subscribe to all of Jeff's positions on this matter, but I understand where he is coming from regardless of whether or not I agree with his conclusions. So we just leave it at that.
The original poster appears to have left in disgust, but just in case he is still lurking in the shadows, let me tell him this: my computing environment is similar but not identical to his. I sit here day-in, day-out processing images in CS3 and it has been totally stable and totally reliable from the get-go. To the poster who said the code is FUBAR - this is also completely OVER THE TOP. All you do is discredit yourself making such outlandish statements. This program, with all its new features, especially ACR4, is beautiful.
I'm not saying this to pooh-pooh the fact you have a problem, but only to underline the possibility that the source of the instability you are experiencing may not necessarily be an Adobe issue and may not necessarily be generally reproducible so as to have been pre-detected in product testing. CS3 has code that CS2 didn't have so this is a possibility. As readers of my previous posts will know, I am very insistent on the issue of maintaining previously achieved functionality and not releasing software prematurely. So my response on the Print Module issues is not the same as it is here, because on that one I remain convinced it could have been better engineered all the circumstances Jeff described notwithstanding. That one was a very testable, detectable and therefore predictable problem well before commercial release. The problem you raise may be one of those that was less predictable and therefore less preventable.
Despite all of this, I have been using CS3 from the day after it shipped, but I still have CS2 installed on my computer. I use Bridge 1.01 for image viewing and sorting because it works better, and I use CS2 for printing. For all else I use CS3. Except for an O/S up-grade where there is no choice, I NEVER uninstall previous versions of software until at least several months goes by and I am totally and unabiguously convinced there is no possible value-added maintaining the old one. Maybe that makes me "uber-anal" but it also keeps me "uber-safe" and on that matter Jeff and Andrew have a point.
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It's not off the wall. What is off the wall is the way Jeff Schewe treats people. His first reply was what was "off the wall", Mark. His last post to the thread starter was just an example of a creep who's trying to grind someone into dust...typical bullying mentality. What I said was nowhere near "off the wall", it was appropriate. Integrity? I don't think Jeff Schewe knows what the word means.
If you don't see this then you are not reading.
Seriously, Schewe does this all the time, everywhere...are you wearing blinders? At some point it needs to be said, the guy (Schewe) is an asswipe, and is obviously hashing out some bitter roots in the most cowardly way..on the internet, laughable and pathetic. Like I said, I feel sorry for him.
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I use Bridge 1.01 for image viewing and sorting because it works better
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=119585\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think you mean you are using Bridge 1.0.4 Mark...don't forget it took Adobe four whacks at it to get it stable. And, again, I suspect (read between the lines) there _WILL_ be a Bridge 2 update before the end of the quarter...which ends Thursday, May 31st (which also happens to be a full moon-I wonder what THAT means?)
:~)
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and is obviously hashing out some bitter roots in the most cowardly way..on the internet, laughable and pathetic.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=119588\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Since I really don't know what an "asswipe" is, I'll let that pass...
I may be a lot of things but "cowardly" is not one of them. If we ever meet face to face, I would treat you in the EXACT SAME METHOD as I would treat you online. You can call me whatever you want bud, your opinion of me is little importance to me. But don't call me a coward...because I'm not.
:~)
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Also, Mark, what about assaulting someone's integrity when they post a query?...is it proper to call them a fool, for no apparent reason? That, to me, is the same type of assault.
Maybe you are reading only what you want to read.
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Ok Jeff, after reading that, I can only say that you really are a fool. I've seen you say that many times...on the INTERNET. You sit at your computer and bully people and try to make them feel stupid, it's obvious to just about everyone. That, is cowardly behavior.
I could give leap that you are aware of the fact that you are a jerk in real life too.
No big secret really, Assistants from the mid 80's, in Chicago, were painfully aware of this fact. It was a standing warning in the bars in River North where the crews gathered for drinks after work..."don't bother going to see him, he's a #%&*^%$."
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wow this is better then the Springer show!
Guys calm down!
so the software needs a little TLC, don't we all at time :-)
what is the solution to the problem with the current version of bridge in CS3? an update or ?
Henrik
PS is a 3Ghz PC not good enough for CS3 or does it have to be a Mac <evil smile>
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I think you mean you are using Bridge 1.0.4 Mark...don't forget it took Adobe four whacks at it to get it stable. And, again, I suspect (read between the lines) there _WILL_ be a Bridge 2 update before the end of the quarter...which ends Thursday, May 31st (which also happens to be a full moon-I wonder what THAT means?)
:~)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=119590\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yup- most likely is 1.0.4.
I hope the forthcoming release of Bridge 2 up-date will solve the disappearing Bridge problem - you know - you can open it once, then when you get out of it and try to open it again, nothing happens unless you restart the computer or wipe it from running processes and applications (apparently the source of the problem is that it hangs-on even if you thought you closed it). This is a repeatable and known problem by now - I've had it twice, and many other users too, evidence from discussion on Adobe Photoshop Windows (I almost typed Widows) Forum. That, and the reverse ordering of labelled versus non-labelled icons are the two issues I've had with the new Bridge. The former is a big PITA, the latter a smaller one. We'll see what comes..........
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It's not off the wall. What is off the wall is the way Jeff Schewe treats people. His first reply was what was "off the wall", Mark. His last post to the thread starter was just an example of a creep who's trying to grind someone into dust...typical bullying mentality. What I said was nowhere near "off the wall", it was appropriate. Integrity? I don't think Jeff Schewe knows what the word means.
If you don't see this then you are not reading.
Seriously, Schewe does this all the time, everywhere...are you wearing blinders? At some point it needs to be said, the guy (Schewe) is an asswipe, and is obviously hashing out some bitter roots in the most cowardly way..on the internet, laughable and pathetic. Like I said, I feel sorry for him.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=119588\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Please don't tell me I'm not reading or not seeing - you don't have a clue ..........
Much as insinuating that someone is a fool (I would have said "silly") isn't the best of manners, two wrongs don't make a right, and the word "fool", though unfortunate, isn't nearly as foul as the language that followed it.
You are a relative newcomer to this site, and I must advise from one member to another that we are not accustomed to and have very little tolerance for this kind of gutter talk.
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OK folks, time to call it a day.
This thread is closed. Start a new one about CS3 if you like, but everyone needs to leave the insults behind.
Michael