Luminous Landscape Forum
The Art of Photography => The Coffee Corner => Topic started by: robertvine on April 14, 2007, 02:19:05 am
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Hello all, first time poster, long time fan of this site. I have recently started downloading the video journals, they have been very interesting and a great help. What I have noticed in the videos and from this site is the huge expense that the authors of the videos go to in order to have the best equipment and to travel to exotic places to photograph.
The question this left me asking was weather this is all funded by the sale of prints and money earnt by other photography related endeavours or is it fuelled by another profession?
I am currently a 'semi-professional' photographer and still have a regular job. While I am not trying to leave my job (which I actually like) to live off photography, I would love to be able to pay for all my photographic equipment desires with the profit. Problem is, with my experience of the demand for fine art photography I cannot see a way that it can be decently profitable. Or am I missing out on some market that can make this business profitable?
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Hello all, first time poster, long time fan of this site. I have recently started downloading the video journals, they have been very interesting and a great help. What I have noticed in the videos and from this site is the huge expense that the authors of the videos go to in order to have the best equipment and to travel to exotic places to photograph.
The question this left me asking was weather this is all funded by the sale of prints and money earnt by other photography related endeavours or is it fuelled by another profession?
I am currently a 'semi-professional' photographer and still have a regular job. While I am not trying to leave my job (which I actually like) to live off photography, I would love to be able to pay for all my photographic equipment desires with the profit. Problem is, with my experience of the demand for fine art photography I cannot see a way that it can be decently profitable. Or am I missing out on some market that can make this business profitable?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=112315\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You have a 'regular' job; you do, presumably, earn enough from it to buy exotica like VJs, so why do you want to eff up the livelihood of those whose 'regular' job is photography?
Just wondered...
Rob C
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There are many lucrative markets. Small framed prints are cheap to produce and easy to sell, weddings/pet portraits and other things you might not normally do can make enough money to support what you want to do.
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Michael's business is essentially photography consulting and teaching. His target market is other photographers (primarily affluent hobbiests) who are looking for ways to advance their craft.
His primary revenue is the sales of his Video Journal and the fees for attending his workshops which travel to exotic locations (at a cost of $5-15k per person) and allow him to provide one on one instruction.
The workshops afford him the personal opportunity to shoot in exotic locales and create beautiful images. These images further his reputation as a fine art landscape photographer and also generates some print sales (a good portion of which I'd bet are bought by the same target market of hobbiest photographers).
It's a wonderful business plan - based upon his skills as a writer, photographer, and teacher. It's also not easily duplicated.
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He's also mentioned a few times in his articles doing architectural photography. In the past he's also done editorial, commercial and advertising photography.
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In other words, a seasoned pro, much as it should be if you want to drink from the fountain. You sure have to pay your bloody dues to get there!
Ciao - Rob C
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You have a 'regular' job; you do, presumably, earn enough from it to buy exotica like VJs, so why do you want to eff up the livelihood of those whose 'regular' job is photography?
This may be needlessly antagonistic. Neither MR, nor you, nor me for that matter, have any more or less right to make a living (or partial living) out of photography than does "robertvine", the starter of this thread. There are thousands and thousands of people in our society with part-time second jobs to make extra cash. They don't need anyone's permission to do so.
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You have a 'regular' job; you do, presumably, earn enough from it to buy exotica like VJs, so why do you want to eff up the livelihood of those whose 'regular' job is photography?
Just wondered...
Rob C
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=112319\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
What an extraordinary attitude!
I can think of only two explanations: you are so insecure in your profession that you worry that a newly-arrived part-timer would post a real threat to your livelihood, or you consider that the paying public should be deprived of the opportunity of employing someone who could do a good job. Neither seems particularly commendable.
In any event, purchase of the video journals ("exotica"?) at a few dollars a time is hardly evidence of affluence.
Jeremy
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This may be needlessly antagonistic. Neither MR, nor you, nor me for that matter, have any more or less right to make a living (or partial living) out of photography than does "robertvine", the starter of this thread. There are thousands and thousands of people in our society with part-time second jobs to make extra cash. They don't need anyone's permission to do so.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=112480\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I agree 100% with that statement.
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To get back to the OP's question and concerns, the problem as I see it is, running a business is not easy. Running a photography/fine art business is not the same as taking good photos. They are two separate skills. I sell the occasional photo, which pleases me somewhat, but I'm certainly glad that I don't have to sell photos to make a living.
I believe that running a restaurant is one type of business that so many people think they can do because there's someone in the family who can cook tasty food.
However, restaurant enterprises seem to fold faster than any other type of business because there's much more to running a successful restaurant than being able to cook a tasty meal.
For me, time spent trying to sell photos is time that cannot be spent taking photos, processing photos, trying new techniques, experimenting, travelling and generally having a good time pursuing my hobby .
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To get back to the OP's question and concerns, the problem as I see it is, running a business is not easy. Running a photography/fine art business is not the same as taking good photos. They are two separate skills. I sell the occasional photo, which pleases me somewhat, but I'm certainly glad that I don't have to sell photos to make a living.
I believe that running a restaurant is one type of business that so many people think they can do because there's someone in the family who can cook tasty food.
However, restaurant enterprises seem to fold faster than any other type of business because there's much more to running a successful restaurant than being able to cook a tasty meal.
For me, time spent trying to sell photos is time that cannot be spent taking photos, processing photos, trying new techniques, experimenting, travelling and generally having a good time pursuing my hobby .
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=112594\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Amen!!!
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What an extraordinary attitude!
I can think of only two explanations: you are so insecure in your profession that you worry that a newly-arrived part-timer would post a real threat to your livelihood, or you consider that the paying public should be deprived of the opportunity of employing someone who could do a good job. Neither seems particularly commendable.
In any event, purchase of the video journals ("exotica"?) at a few dollars a time is hardly evidence of affluence.
Jeremy
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=112487\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
How sweet, Jerry, how literal and how predictable! Never thought much of shamateurs, but then, not a lot of the general public either. On that basis, perhaps they deserve one another...
Ciao - Insecure Rob C (Yeah, right!)
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How sweet, Jerry, how literal and how predictable! Never thought much of shamateurs, but then, not a lot of the general public either. On that basis, perhaps they deserve one another...
Ciao - Insecure Rob C (Yeah, right!)
Perhaps not insecure, but certainly arrogant.
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There's an interesting issue here. I've got photos of my great grandfather and family taken by a professional photographer in the 19th century. I'm sure these photos are much better than any amateur of the day could take. I haven't got the negatives; just 5x8" contact prints (or something close to those dimensions).
I'm pleased that when I scan these faded prints they make reasonably sharp large prints. I sometimes wonder if 35mm film could do much better.
It seems we are now in an era of 'photography for everyone'. Painstakingly learned skills are now becoming automated functions which allow the complete novice to take reasonably good photos, from the technical point of view.
The professional photographer who has to earn a living from selling his photos is perhaps under siege.
I wonder, if I were a kid considering career options, would I opt for photography in such a climate.
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This is all interesting discussion but I don't think I have a definitive answer - does anyone actually make a profit from selling fine art prints? I don't think so, there is certainly profit to be made from portrait and fashion photography but not from purely selling fine art prints.
Everyone goes on about how it's not enough to just take good photos, you need to be good at business to succeed and that's true of course but how well can your business get if you do not produce a good product?
We don't have photography for everyone just yet, we still do not have the 'magic' camera that takes great shots no matter how inept the photographer is. The difference is that the technical skills that are required to take great photos have changed and become more accessible to certain people. Those skills are still inaccessible to plenty! Besides, if the technical skills become easier to acquire then you start to compete more on an artistic base. No amount of darkroom of photshop can cure a lack of artistic vision.
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Its an exciting time to be a professional photographer. Also, its cool that more people are taking pictures than ever before. Amateurs and Pros basically have access to the same tools, but its how one uses them that makes the difference. This is not an easy business to be in, but it is incredibly rewarding and fun.
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It seems we are now in an era of 'photography for everyone'. Painstakingly learned skills are now becoming automated functions which allow the complete novice to take reasonably good photos, from the technical point of view.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=112809\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
A phrase that makes me laugh and cringe at the same time is, "'P' for 'Professional!'" I hear that more from practicing professional photographers than amateurs. They use that phrase to brush off the fact they haven't bothered to learn how their camera works yet.
And on that note, you can be a complete hack with no knowledge of the art or craft of photography yet still be successful in the field if you are good at business (I do know of some "photographers" like this with very profitable businesses). This applies to selling fine-art work too. If you are good at business, you can make a very good profit at it.
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Amateurs and Pros basically have access to the same tools, but its how one uses them that makes the difference.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=112856\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes, I love the fact that this is the case as it puts pressure on those who claim to be professionals to improve their craft or lose business. As much as many (though no one on these forums) may not like the idea of competing with amateurs, it benefits everyone. The more non-photographers there are shooting the more people will appreciate the complexities of good photography and be willing to pay for it.
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This is all interesting discussion but I don't think I have a definitive answer - does anyone actually make a profit from selling fine art prints? I don't think so, there is certainly profit to be made from portrait and fashion photography but not from purely selling fine art prints.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=112827\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You might not think so.
But I think you'd be wrong.
Go to the front page and read some of Alain Briot's postings.
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Yes, I love the fact that this is the case as it puts pressure on those who claim to be professionals to improve their craft or lose business. As much as many (though no one on these forums) may not like the idea of competing with amateurs, it benefits everyone. The more non-photographers there are shooting the more people will appreciate the complexities of good photography and be willing to pay for it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=112874\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
But I also don't consider myself to be competing with amateurs.
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We don't have photography for everyone just yet, we still do not have the 'magic' camera that takes great shots no matter how inept the photographer is. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=112827\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It depends on your perspective. I remember well the days before we had through-the-lens metering, auto exposure, auto focusing, auto-bracketing, auto flash pop up etc. We now even have auto-face detection. I also remember well, 40-50 years ago when I was a small boy, how proud relatives and visitiors would be when showing off their out-of-focus, underexposed or overexposed snapshots with chopped-off feet, which to me seemed quite awful .
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I also remember well, 40-50 years ago when I was a small boy, how proud relatives and visitiors would be when showing off their out-of-focus, underexposed or overexposed snapshots with chopped-off feet, which to me seemed quite awful .
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=112968\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
...and people still do that.
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While technology has made equipment capable of recording high-quality images more accessible to the masses, it has done nothing to improve compositional skills artistic vision, or creativity. These skills are what separate the true professional from the hordes of amateurs with more money (to buy gear) than brains (to know how to use it).
Photography is a difficult business to make a profit in. You cannot survive on artistic talent and photographic skill alone; you must also be able to effectively market your skills to customers.
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While technology has made equipment capable of recording high-quality images more accessible to the masses, it has done nothing to improve compositional skills artistic vision, or creativity. These skills are what separate the true professional from the hordes of amateurs with more money (to buy gear) than brains (to know how to use it).
Photography is a difficult business to make a profit in. You cannot survive on artistic talent and photographic skill alone; you must also be able to effectively market your skills to customers.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=113653\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
True. The two things that have proved most important for me are my knowledge of art and of marketing.
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True. The two things that have proved most important for me are my knowledge of art and of marketing.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=113683\")
How true! "Where's the beef?", The Pet Rock, name a star after someone, all in the marketing. When I first started reading all the great stuff on LL two things impressed me the most. One gave me insight on how to go about making the photography/graphics business work. It was a great article by Alain. It is on this site, "Being an Artist in Business". Read Parts One and Two. Forget that , read everything this man wrote. [a href=\"http://www.luminous-landscape.com/columns/Artist1.shtml]http://www.luminous-landscape.com/columns/Artist1.shtml[/url] (start here)
The next thing that impressed me was Micahel's "Do the Funky Cam" article and accompanying photos. http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/funkeycam.shtml (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/funkeycam.shtml) I was ready to give up on starting a business. No money to buy a 39 megapixel camera or all the stuff I wanted. I did have a decent 8 mp digital SLR, a damn good computer, CS2, some great Photoshop experience. I saw what Michael did with his funky cam and decided the only thing you needed was expensive equipment was just not true. My sales and marketing background got me some clients and hard work along with trying to learn something new every day got me through. My previous company was sold for the umpteenth time and after being shown the door by the new VP of sales and marketing I realized I was too old to go after the same kind of job I lost and at the same pay. So I used to have my hobby and my "regular" job. Now, no regular job. What to do? Voile´new career doing what I love. And to Rob C's delight I make a nice living and haven't "Effed" it up for other pros.
So good luck. Here's a glass of wine for you and some Prozac for that other insecure dude that posted to this thread earlier.
Jac
PS - I have some better equipment now. Most recently being sold by MR on the Z3100 - nice!
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A top pro photographer once told me to simply be the best photographer. "No competition at the top." Charge what you want and do only want you to do. Simple advice from the best.
If you are worried, you are either in the wrong business or you aren't the best. Does a lion worry about catching it's next dinner? Nope. If she misses, just tries again.
OR, if you are doing what you want to do at the level you want, you are doing just fine.
Just don't worry - you might be dead tomorrow with a few thousand magnificent images to process and sell for a lot of money. Keep your battery charged like you will shoot all day, but remember you can't take your 1Ds with you.
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A phrase that makes me laugh and cringe at the same time is, "'P' for 'Professional!'" I hear that more from practicing professional photographers than amateurs. They use that phrase to brush off the fact they haven't bothered to learn how their camera works yet.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=112871\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
On another forum a pro photographer was amazed to discover that the 1DsII could shoot on both SD + CF. She'd had the camera for two years!
Also dispels the myth that it's just men who don't read the manuals.
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I didn't notice Alain specifically mention it in this thread (perhaps he is modest ;-) ), but he has produced an excellent training CD focusing specifically on business matters for photographers:
http://www.plugsandpixels.com/blmarketing.html (http://www.plugsandpixels.com/blmarketing.html)
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What would you rather be . . . a damn good photographer or a professional photographer? A professional is one who gets paid and thereby turns volunteer work into a profession. The word has been bastardized to the point of almost being meaningless.
Pro = paid. By the way did you buy your girlfriend/wife/significant other/life partner/etc., dinner last night?
Jac
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...does anyone actually make a profit from selling fine art prints? I don't think so, there is certainly profit to be made from portrait and fashion photography but not from purely selling fine art prints.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=112827\")
Yes, it is possible and profitable to make a living only selling prints of your work. A good example of a fellow who lives in a small town selling prints is [a href=\"http://www.kanfer.com/]here.[/url] You may not necessarily like his work, but over the last 20 years he has become very weathly, owning two homes in separate states and a vacation home in northern Wisonsin in addition to two gallery facilities he owns in Illinois and Wisonsin. He travels all over the world every year with his family in tow. His technique: sell sets of prints to corporations for their hallways, waiting rooms and convention rooms. In the area of Champaign-Urbana all the hospitals, restaurants and most hotels have many prints throughout their facilities. He also co-publishes books and calendars in conjuction with the University of Illinois, and publishes thousands of postcards which are sold in every store in town. He aggresively seeks out markets for his work. He does very little commisioned work.