Luminous Landscape Forum

Site & Board Matters => About This Site => Topic started by: kkovak on March 19, 2007, 07:56:33 pm

Title: Comment on Article Comparing HP vs. Epson Printers
Post by: kkovak on March 19, 2007, 07:56:33 pm
I found the article comparing the HP Z3100 with the Epson 9800 informative and, as usual, for this site very complete and balanced.  However, I was taken aback by the use of an unexpectedly provocative example photo (for the monochrome prints) included in the report.  While many photo sites think noting of using material like this I am not used to seeing it on this site.  I read this material on my PC which is in the family space of our home and, in my opinion, this is not appropriate for "family viewing", even inadvertent views.

I certainly do not wish to dictate my sensibilities on anyone else or on this web site, but I would appreciate a warning when provocative material will be included.  

Thanks for listening,

Ken
Title: Comment on Article Comparing HP vs. Epson Printers
Post by: feppe on March 19, 2007, 08:28:34 pm
Quote
I certainly do not wish to dictate my sensibilities on anyone else or on this web site, but I would appreciate a warning when provocative material will be included.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=107575\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
[emphasis mine]

That's exactly what you're trying to do.
Title: Comment on Article Comparing HP vs. Epson Printers
Post by: Rob C on March 20, 2007, 05:50:53 am
kkovak

Thank's very much for drawing my attention to the lovely photograph! I had missed it completely because my interest in printers isn't, currently, all that strong; my interest in the fair sex, however, is as overwhelming as ever it was in the past six decades; thank you again.

Ciao - Rob C
Title: Comment on Article Comparing HP vs. Epson Printers
Post by: Quentin on March 20, 2007, 06:44:15 am
Provocative material?  You need to get out more     Much more provocative material is available - without warning - in most photo mags and many daily newspapers

Quentin

Quote
I found the article comparing the HP Z3100 with the Epson 9800 informative and, as usual, for this site very complete and balanced.  However, I was taken aback by the use of an unexpectedly provocative example photo (for the monochrome prints) included in the report.  While many photo sites think noting of using material like this I am not used to seeing it on this site.  I read this material on my PC which is in the family space of our home and, in my opinion, this is not appropriate for "family viewing", even inadvertent views.

I certainly do not wish to dictate my sensibilities on anyone else or on this web site, but I would appreciate a warning when provocative material will be included. 

Thanks for listening,

Ken
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=107575\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: Comment on Article Comparing HP vs. Epson Printers
Post by: bjornaagedk on March 20, 2007, 07:04:32 am
I enjoyed this very beautiful photo very much !
Title: Comment on Article Comparing HP vs. Epson Printers
Post by: digitaldog on March 20, 2007, 12:08:22 pm
After reading the first post, I went without haste to see this provocative image. No naughty bits to my disappointment but I'll agree with bjornaagedk, it's a lovely image. Now I better go back and actually read the review <g>
Title: Comment on Article Comparing HP vs. Epson Printers
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on March 20, 2007, 12:17:41 pm
I thought the photo in question was quite lovely, too.

But I was shocked, shocked to see that some of the Antarctica images posted here showed penguins completely undressed!!  
Title: Comment on Article Comparing HP vs. Epson Printers
Post by: DarkPenguin on March 20, 2007, 12:28:29 pm
What pictures are you looking at.  They're wearing tuxedos.
Title: Comment on Article Comparing HP vs. Epson Printers
Post by: Petrjay on March 20, 2007, 02:29:25 pm
Clothed or not, those uncouth birds do not deserve to be paraded before the public! I mean, is there anything more distasteful than appearing in tuxedos before 6:00 PM? I believe MR owes us all an apology for displaying this outrageous breach of decorum.
Title: Comment on Article Comparing HP vs. Epson Printers
Post by: framah on March 20, 2007, 04:05:51 pm
Yep!! Great image!! Thank you for the heads up on that one.

 Tho I am a little disturbed by the pregnant woman with the umbrella.
Title: Comment on Article Comparing HP vs. Epson Printers
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on March 20, 2007, 07:51:27 pm
Quote
What pictures are you looking at.  They're wearing tuxedos.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=107724\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Ah, but Dark! You have been misled! Those aren't really tuxedos; that is simply body painting made to look like tuxedos (the way Sp*rts *ll*str*t*d does for some of their so-called "swim suits.")    
Title: Comment on Article Comparing HP vs. Epson Printers
Post by: Jay Kaplan on March 20, 2007, 10:07:21 pm
Quote
What pictures are you looking at.  They're wearing tuxedos.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=107724\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That maybe so, but are they wearing pants?
Title: Comment on Article Comparing HP vs. Epson Printers
Post by: Rob C on March 21, 2007, 02:27:05 pm
Okay, I've enjoyed the humour - quite nice to find something funny these days; however, going back to the original post, though it was really far from being too OTT, it did make me slightly uneasy as I began to ask myself what, exactly, was the difference between some somewhat fundamentalist western thinking patterns and our old pals the Taliban?

It becomes so easy to see the current world problems in terms of 'them and us' and to lose sight of the similar, if less stridently expressed problems on our own doorstep.

Thoughtfully - Rob C
Title: Comment on Article Comparing HP vs. Epson Printers
Post by: DarkPenguin on March 21, 2007, 02:49:22 pm
Did the OP ask for anything more than a warning?
Title: Comment on Article Comparing HP vs. Epson Printers
Post by: howiesmith on March 21, 2007, 03:39:07 pm
Quote
Did the OP ask for anything more than a warning?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=107913\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Not really, but he likely expected to be mocked for having asked.  I don't see why, just because there are "worse" examples on the web, all sites need to change their standards toward the "least common denominator."  

I frankly find it a shame that modesty is not respected.  This was not the sort of image expected on a site called "Luminous Landscape."

For those who need see such images and deplore a warning, perhaps the warning could serve as a guide for them too.  Then the same warning could guide both those who do and don't want to see the images.
Title: Comment on Article Comparing HP vs. Epson Printers
Post by: macgyver on March 21, 2007, 04:45:54 pm
Very well said Howie, I too tend to think that it is sad the more respect isn't given to modesty.
Title: Comment on Article Comparing HP vs. Epson Printers
Post by: Jae_Moon on March 21, 2007, 05:44:43 pm
It was a 'printer review' article and the prints were chosen "using two test images which Studio One regards as their benchmarks for print comparisons in B&W.'

I read a newspaper article several months ago that an art teacher of a middle school in Dallas, TX area was fired after taking her 5 or 6th graders to the Dallas Museum of Art, thus exposing her students to 'naked women' of the ancient Greece.

While it seems a quite reasonable request of putting a 'warning' sign, I would be very much disappointed if we have to live in a society that mandates posting warning signs in front of museums, libraries, opera houses, and many public buildings (the former US Attorney General Ashcroft covered the image of bare breasted 'Lady Justice' in the building of Justice Department), etc.

The original poster objected the image of two women, but why not to the image of ballerina? Many around the world (and in this country, too) would object to it. Should we put an 'warning sign' for it too?

I change TV channel if I see something I don't care to see in it.

I don't try to enforce my values to others, nor I want others to do to me.

Jae Moon
Title: Comment on Article Comparing HP vs. Epson Printers
Post by: BernardLanguillier on March 21, 2007, 07:29:07 pm
Quote
However, I was taken aback by the use of an unexpectedly provocative example photo (for the monochrome prints) included in the report. I read this material on my PC which is in the family space of our home and, in my opinion, this is not appropriate for "family viewing", even inadvertent views.

I certainly do not wish to dictate my sensibilities on anyone else or on this web site, but I would appreciate a warning when provocative material will be included. 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=107575\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Ken,

Frankly speaking, I was shocked by your post. Michael has always stated that LL is not a site devoted only to landscape and I don't see the difference between street shot images and some bits of nudity. For me both are perfectly valid aspects of our lives and showing them is normal.

To my eyes, exposing my kids to such an image is not an issue at all and my view has always been that the best education is to prepare them to all the aspects of real life. Sex and nudity being an essential aspect of our existence as human beings, even if it is one we all somehow have problems to deal with.

I had not realized that some people in the US were this sensitive to nudity. Although what Rob C wrote about Talibans is going too far, I understand what he means.

I would for one be opposed to the usage of warning for such harmless images. For me that would be aligning myself to the lowest denominator of censorship. I don't intend to have my wife wearing a veil because some Guru in Saudi Arabia would like her to, and I also don't intend to have to get rid of warning messages each time some bits of breast is exposed because some gurus in the US would like me to. Both are completely unreasonnable.

The real solution is to open up to sexuality by exposing ourselves more to it instead of hiding away from it.

To my eyes, our lives belong to a grand scheme of evolution whose name has to be progress. Progress means many things, but among these things I feel that a key aspect is a deeper understanding of our human nature, and the creation of an environment where all aspects of our humanity are allowed to bloom.

Trying to deny the central role of sex is IMHO akin to trying to oppose the march of progress. It will be seen in a few years as a sad detour, similar to what happened during the darkest periods of the Middle Age.

The key to free outselves from this is to underdstand the actual motives that pushed some man in charge of our religions to oppose sexuality. It has to be said that there is nothing divine about this, puritanism is a purely man made concept.

We boast about how free our countries are, but are we free to even discuss this topic openly?

Here again, we have so many things to learn from Asian countries.

Regards,
Bernard
Title: Comment on Article Comparing HP vs. Epson Printers
Post by: blansky on March 21, 2007, 07:52:24 pm
I don't know about you guys but I have a nudity warning posted up over my bathroom mirror and still I'm shocked at what I see sometimes.


Michael
Title: Comment on Article Comparing HP vs. Epson Printers
Post by: jule on March 21, 2007, 09:33:33 pm
Quote
Ken,

Frankly speaking, I was shocked by your post. Michael has always stated that LL is not a site devoted only to landscape and I don't see the difference between street shot images and some bits of nudity. For me both are perfectly valid aspects of our lives and showing them is normal.

To my eyes, exposing my kids to such an image is not an issue at all and my view has always been that the best education is to prepare them to all the aspects of real life. Sex and nudity being an essential aspect of our existence as human beings, even if it is one we all somehow have problems to deal with.

I had not realized that some people in the US were this sensitive to nudity. Although what Rob C wrote about Talibans is going too far, I understand what he means.

I would for one be opposed to the usage of warning for such harmless images. For me that would be aligning myself to the lowest denominator of censorship. I don't intend to have my wife wearing a veil because some Guru in Saudi Arabia would like her to, and I also don't intend to have to get rid of warning messages each time some bits of breast is exposed because some gurus in the US would like me to. Both are completely unreasonnable.

The real solution is to open up to sexuality by exposing ourselves more to it instead of hiding away from it.

To my eyes, our lives belong to a grand scheme of evolution whose name has to be progress. Progress means many things, but among these things I feel that a key aspect is a deeper understanding of our human nature, and the creation of an environment where all aspects of our humanity are allowed to bloom.

Trying to deny the central role of sex is IMHO akin to trying to oppose the march of progress. It will be seen in a few years as a sad detour, similar to what happened during the darkest periods of the Middle Age.

The key to free outselves from this is to underdstand the actual motives that pushed some man in charge of our religions to oppose sexuality. It has to be said that there is nothing divine about this, puritanism is a purely man made concept.

We boast about how free our countries are, but are we free to even discuss this topic openly?

Here again, we have so many things to learn from Asian countries.

Regards,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=107971\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Bernard, well said.
I personally thought the image reflected a loving relationship, and I for one would prefer to see, and our children to see, the portrayal of a loving relationship - regardless of one's chosen sexuality - than to see violent images of murders which come into our homes via many tv programs, and images of war which often illustrate hatred, intolerance, retribution and arrogance. I am referring to all warring peoples across the globe by the way.

Both are aspects of our world and reflect part of our human nature, but I know which one I would rather support and have in our home.

Julie
Title: Comment on Article Comparing HP vs. Epson Printers
Post by: paulbk on March 21, 2007, 11:45:52 pm
RE: "I had not realized that some people in the US were this sensitive to nudity. Although what Rob C wrote about Talibans is going too far, I understand what he means."

Not too far. I agree with Rob C. 100%.

I have no problem with folks who find the image in question offensive. I have a big problem when they try to impose their sensitivities on me.

p
Title: Comment on Article Comparing HP vs. Epson Printers
Post by: John Camp on March 22, 2007, 12:05:19 am
I would also prefer notification of this kind of material. I almost misssed it.  

JC
Title: Comment on Article Comparing HP vs. Epson Printers
Post by: Ray on March 22, 2007, 12:25:19 am
Just goes to show how significant sex is in our society. Without it, I think it would be no exaggeration to say, we would not exist.
Title: Comment on Article Comparing HP vs. Epson Printers
Post by: Pete JF on March 22, 2007, 01:58:20 am
Sexual repression is a helluva drug. If my kids had seen me looking at that pic I would have just told them to pull up a chair and set a spell. When you create walls around fairly innocent stuff like this, you only feed the fire and encourage the notion that it is wrong, dirty, abnormal. America is pathetic in this regard. I say we should have pictures of naked people everywhere...naked naked naked. Those girls are pretty and seemed to have enjoyed the photo shoot. Rejoice.
Title: Comment on Article Comparing HP vs. Epson Printers
Post by: cmburns on March 22, 2007, 04:19:50 am
I've spent the last couple of months in New Zealand and Australia and spent a decent amount of time in Europe in the past few years. I am shocked now to be back in the USA and see how censored our television and life in general is here. I watched some USA tv show in New Zealand where they do plastic surgery. In America they of course blur out the breasts because seeing those would be traumatizing. In New Zealand you see the breast, same show, just not blurred out. Honestly they should probably blur them out, in the USA you see two blurry lumps. In New Zealand you get to see that after the operation one lump is a few inches lower than the other and a different size, lol.
     I also got very use to watching Gordon Ramsay cuss out everyone and anyone on his BBC show. Those words of course would damage a young lad or lass here in the USA. Thankfully the show isn't shown here, well they tried with Hells Kitchen but it was so bleeped out you didn't know what was going on. One thing I didn't see a lot of there was gratuitious violence. Thankfully here I can see all I want, well of course unless it's real. Overseas I got to see photos and videos of the war in Iraq showing blood and dead people, sometimes even dead US soldiers. Thankfully that all gets censored out here in the USA so we don't have to think about it.
         What i'm trying to say is what seems the norm here in America is utterly preposterous to the rest of the western world. Some friends in New Zealand were amazed that we didn't allow nudity and cussing on tv, because of the influence of the church in America, yet these same church people were completely for the war where thousands of people were being killed.
     Americans tend to think of Canada as our bassackwards Molson drinking neighbors to the north eh. But they're generally a lot more advanced and European in their censorship attitudes. Just watch some of the documentaries on CBC sometime to see this. Oh yeah, we don't get those here in America, too much cussing and nudity mixed in with the information, and hell too much information for that matter, might get people in the USA thinking and we sure don't want that. I bring up Canada because the last time I checked, that was where Michael was from. People should keep this in mind before they start telling him to change this website that's read worldwide, so that it meets with the USA's draconian standards on what's morally decent or not.
Title: Comment on Article Comparing HP vs. Epson Printers
Post by: Rob C on March 22, 2007, 05:58:45 am
Hi

mac - I think that too much attention is already watsed on Modesty; we have a Chancellor in the UK who wastes even more time on a hussy called Prudence...

Jae - The example of a teacher being fired in the US is mirrored in the UK where an entire art, yes, ART class was closed because a teacher had photographed a mature student, wearing a bikini, sitting on a back-to-front chair in the manner of our famous Christine Keeler of governmental scandal fame. Those mini-Talis are more prevalent than you might think.

Bernard - A well reasoned post and one with which I have a great deal of sympathy. I worked as a fashion and then, later, calendar photographer from the mid-sixties onward until my turn had passed; I have two kids who were born in the 60s and as a photographer, I was very aware of what was going down in the world of magazines. I had a subscription to Playboy for many of those years and I used to leave it around in full sight of the entire family. Sometimes the kids flicked through it, mostly they didn't have the slightest interest. Then, possibly to compete with Penthouse, I felt Playboy moved into a direction of which I wasn't fond and I cancelled. So there you are - even this libertine has a level of inner approval of what he reads or otherwise. But that's far from a Taliban mindset!

To those who didn't know the magazine of those years: yes, it did indeed have wonderfully written articles on all manner of subjects and if one wanted to improve the range of one's vocabulary, it was a good place to start!

As to whether the picture that started all this has anything to do with loving relationships, I haven't a clue; I'd be more inclined to believe that the two girls probably worked in the same model agency and that's all that there is to it.

Nice shot.

Ciao - Rob C
Title: Comment on Article Comparing HP vs. Epson Printers
Post by: Ben Rubinstein on March 22, 2007, 08:44:23 am
It's lesbian pornography. Whether you are OK with that is one thing but call a spade a spade.
Title: Comment on Article Comparing HP vs. Epson Printers
Post by: Petrjay on March 22, 2007, 09:46:27 am
Come on pom, gimme a break - that photograph might be hokey, pedestrian, and feature all the warmth of George Bush signing another death warrant, but porn it ain't. I can't help but wonder if the OP would post warnings in the vicinity of Auguste Rodin's "The Kiss" or Michelangelo's "David." Frankly, I've become weary of being lectured on the subject of morality by a pack of self-righteous frauds who think nothing of slaughtering thousands while wringing their hands over the prospect of their kids actually seeing what a human being looks like. Anyone who's afraid of what appears on the internet or television has the options of turning off or getting rid of their computers or TVs, or better yet, actually supervising their kids. Now there's a novel concept.
Title: Comment on Article Comparing HP vs. Epson Printers
Post by: Ben Rubinstein on March 22, 2007, 10:25:05 am
Quote
Come on pom, gimme a break - that photograph might be hokey, pedestrian, and feature all the warmth of George Bush signing another death warrant, but porn it ain't. I can't help but wonder if the OP would post warnings in the vicinity of Auguste Rodin's "The Kiss" or Michelangelo's "David." Frankly, I've become weary of being lectured on the subject of morality by a pack of self-righteous frauds who think nothing of slaughtering thousands while wringing their hands over the prospect of their kids actually seeing what a human being looks like. Anyone who's afraid of what appears on the internet or television has the options of turning off or getting rid of their computers or TVs, or better yet, actually supervising their kids. Now there's a novel concept.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=108063\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'm sorry? Two naked women hugging each other and with that expression on their faces and it's not porn? Maybe not very explicit porn but it certainly is pornography. You're entitled to it but I have a right to want not to be exposed to it as do a huge proportion of the world who would agree with me. If you want to be liberal then maybe think of the rights of people who don't agree with you, who believe in their rights to protect their own morality?

I think that I could have expected not to come across such a picture on this website. On the majority of photo forums any post with nudity is prefaced with a warning be it 'nude' or 'don't look at work', etc. That is respecting others rights, beliefs and morals. To advocate exposing the public to such a photo without any warning, in the full knowledge that many people will find it offensive is to make yourself as guilty as those you class as hypocrits above.

Do you not realise just how offensive the American concept of 'you will accept our lack of morality when we shove it in your face' is to so much of the rest of the world? Your statement above, I'm not allowed access to the internet because if I do then I must accept that I will have nudity and porn shoved in my face inadvertedly and without warning. How dare you cut off the entire internet to me just because you can't accept me having a problem with that kind of exposure. Why can I not be warned at least so that I have the CHOICE! You don't seem to think that I should be allowed a choice at all, that I have to accept your views.

The OP may choose not to go to see the art you mention, but when he is exposed to something like that photo on a website that he could have assumed that he wouldn't have seen that photo then I can agree that he has a valid reason to have been surprised. This is MR's website and he can do as he pleases, it's his right to do so. However given the level of public exposure that this website has it would be resonable to request a level of sensitivity to the percentage of viewers who will find such a photo offensive even if it just be a warning.
Title: Comment on Article Comparing HP vs. Epson Printers
Post by: howiesmith on March 22, 2007, 10:55:40 am
I have a question for those who need to look at pornograhy.  When searching for it, do you look at LL first?  Last?  Not at all?

I would guess LL never comes to mind.  So, surprise.  Those looking for pornograhy don't look, those not expecting get surprised.
Title: Comment on Article Comparing HP vs. Epson Printers
Post by: CatOne on March 22, 2007, 11:32:09 am
Quote
It's lesbian pornography. Whether you are OK with that is one thing but call a spade a spade.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=108054\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

ROFL.  Dude, it's an artistic picture.  Pornography, indeed.  Make sure you tithe this weekend.  $20 minimum!
Title: Comment on Article Comparing HP vs. Epson Printers
Post by: LoisWakeman on March 22, 2007, 11:34:18 am
Quote
but it certainly is pornography. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=108067\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The problem with that statement - and others of the opposite view above - is that often, pornography (like beauty) is in the eye of the beholder. It is not possible except at the very extreme to be dogmatic about what is or isn't offensive, pornographic, beautiful, ugly, or whatever.  And even at the extreme, there will be some weirdo who thinks it's OK.

One person's porn is another's pinup or mild erotica or yawnfest. Now, I must go and see what all the fuss is about.
Title: Comment on Article Comparing HP vs. Epson Printers
Post by: howiesmith on March 22, 2007, 11:42:17 am
Quote
And even at the extreme, there will be some weirdo who thinks it's OK.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=108077\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
But Lois, don't weirdo extremists have rights too?

The OP did not even suggest that they don't, merely that it would be helpful to warn.
Title: Comment on Article Comparing HP vs. Epson Printers
Post by: Ben Rubinstein on March 22, 2007, 11:44:35 am
According to wikipedia:

"In general, "erotica" refers to portrayals of sexually arousing material that hold or aspire to artistic or historical merit, whereas "pornography" often connotes the prurient depiction of sexual acts, with little or no artistic value. "

My apologies. Not that I expected erotica either...
Title: Comment on Article Comparing HP vs. Epson Printers
Post by: macgyver on March 22, 2007, 11:48:40 am
Thank you Pom, I am so sick of people so caught up in advocating their own right to see something that they blow past others who might not want to see something.
Title: Comment on Article Comparing HP vs. Epson Printers
Post by: Pete JF on March 22, 2007, 12:01:05 pm
That ain't porn, folks.

It, might be soft porn..erotica (same thing IMO) depending on where you grew up and what taboos you were gifted with by your parents, community or church. My parents would have laughed and winked at each other and then said.."son, that ain't art." And I would have said, "Maybe not, mom and dad, but for now it'll do."

...No nipples, no boody. If you go to the art museum you'll see paintings that are more graphic/revealing than that. Nothing more than you would see on flip through a fashion magazine, National Geographic in it's prime or a walk down the beach on a hot summer day. the mischevious look on the girls face? Big deal..gay people do exist.

That photo doesn't cut it as art, that's for sure...I think the boys at the printing stuido use that as a standard for a good print, that's about it. For them, it's all about the tonal gradation and dither on curved surfaces.

I think Michael's having a good giggle on this one...
Title: Comment on Article Comparing HP vs. Epson Printers
Post by: paulbk on March 22, 2007, 01:16:00 pm
The most interesting aspect about all this is how it exposes members’ core values. One could read each post beginning to end and check the box that applies:
(a) understands art, (b) uptight artist not.

Good grief people! Look at the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. Is that gratuitous sex? I think not.

p
Title: Comment on Article Comparing HP vs. Epson Printers
Post by: howiesmith on March 22, 2007, 02:01:23 pm
This is another topic that arguments will probably not change anyone's point of view.

As a Christian, I don't believe that at the final judgement (shown in the Sistine Chapel), "But I am an artist" will be an adequate defense.  Nor will "I don't believe that."

Jesus taught that we are responsible for telling others, but not for their decisions.  This may cut both ways.  Nonbelievers are not responsible for the beleiver's decision.
Title: Comment on Article Comparing HP vs. Epson Printers
Post by: michael on March 22, 2007, 02:03:44 pm
OK folks, I think we've explored this sufficiently.

Michael