Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: KAP on March 06, 2007, 01:06:28 pm
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Robert White is selling the ZD with a lens for £5500. +vat. Now that's tempting. i'm looking at Phaseone's etc, but this looks good. So what's the problem with the ZD, What makes the backs better, the ZD has a large sensor like all the backs and 14 bit. Why is it judged not to deliver quite like the backs?
Kevin.
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I have not yet tested a ZD myself (though I expect to get one for testing in the next few weeks, as there is now a Canadian distributor). So, I can't comment about its image quality, yet.
But, something to keep in mind is that image quality is only partially about specs and sensor size. There's a lot of science, quite a bit of art, and not a little black magic involved in taking a sensor and turning it into a back. A few companies have developed such expertise, but only a few. Being a camera maker, such as Mamiya, doesn't of itself provide any easy path to making a digital capability work well.
Michael
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Robert White is selling the ZD with a lens for £5500. +vat. Now that's tempting. i'm looking at Phaseone's etc, but this looks good. So what's the problem with the ZD, What makes the backs better, the ZD has a large sensor like all the backs and 14 bit. Why is it judged not to deliver quite like the backs?
Kevin.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105031\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I have had very limited experience with the ZD but it seemed much noisier than the Aptus 22.
The big negative for me is the fact that you can only use Mamiya lenses with it. While these can be surprisingly good, the great thing about a digital back is that it opens up access to Schneider and Rodenstock digital lenses which are quite fantastic.
Oh... and I need camera movements, so it means a digital back is needed. If I was shooting people or fashion I might have gone for a ZD, but it would be a tough decision between it and a Canon 1DsII.
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I have had very limited experience with the ZD but it seemed much noisier than the Aptus 22.
The big negative for me is the fact that you can only use Mamiya lenses with it. While these can be surprisingly good, the great thing about a digital back is that it opens up access to Schneider and Rodenstock digital lenses which are quite fantastic.
Oh... and I need camera movements, so it means a digital back is needed. If I was shooting people or fashion I might have gone for a ZD, but it would be a tough decision between it and a Canon 1DsII.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105045\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
hi there,
i unfortunatly had the zd as one of the first owners in germany- want to say i felt at the end like their stupid testperson.
this camera is the biggest crap i ever owned in my life.
especially if you want to shot people or even worse fashion- this thing is completly unusable.
so far the quality at and beyond 100 asa is great- the handling is complete bullshit.
i dont know any client,model, portraitperson or however who wants to wait fully 2 minutes till the camera buffer is cleared after only 10 shots- jpgs or raw doesnt matter, before you can really go on to shot another 10 - the same if tethered- which has is own problems.
and mamiya germany which is based in my hometown munich- and i was their personal kown customer since 13 years - completly disapointed me ( friendly spoken).
they were at this time beginning to middle of last year completly convinced about there piece- i guess they are only theoritical technics.
and even then they should realize that the bufferwriting is completly unacceptable, as well as the menue and display (waiting up ages to show up the picture- want show before buffer is clear).
but worst of it all- the quality above 100asa is completly unusable, even with noiseninja postprod.
at the end i was so frustrated about the camera and there arrogant service and neverkeeping firmwareupgrade promises that i gave it back end of year to my dealer, while loosing a quite huge amount of cash, because the leasing company did´t like to quite my contract.
at the end i was just happy to get rid of it- and all the rest of my mamiya gear (had rz,pro645,later 645afd before)
changed to hassyh3d22 in december - which is cool now and quite a different leage to work with.
this is just my experience which i would like to tell everyone who thinks about purchasing a zd- and! wants to work prof. with it in the portrait or fashion area.
cheers
bernd
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especially if you want to shot people or even worse fashion- this thing is completly unusable.
so far the quality at and beyond 100 asa is great- the handling is complete bullshit.
i dont know any client,model, portraitperson or however who wants to wait fully 2 minutes till the camera buffer is cleared after only 10 shots- jpgs or raw doesnt matter, before you can really go on to shot another 10 - the same if tethered- which has is own problems.
You need say no more, 10 shots wipes it off my list to then.
Kevin.
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Robert White is selling the ZD with a lens for £5500. +vat. Now that's tempting. i'm looking at Phaseone's etc, but this looks good. So what's the problem with the ZD, What makes the backs better, the ZD has a large sensor like all the backs and 14 bit. Why is it judged not to deliver quite like the backs?
Kevin.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=105031\")
I have been happy about the image quality delivered by my Mamiya ZD.
I have been using it for landscape applications in various environments for a few months, and although there are some issues, the camera does perform.
There might be some pixel peeing differences with Phase P25 or Leaf A22, but they really are of that magnitude I believe.
Some samples are online:
[a href=\"http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/72157594375306114/]http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlangui...57594375306114/[/url]
Regards,
Bernard
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Robert White is selling the ZD with a lens for £5500. +vat. Now that's tempting. i'm looking at Phaseone's etc, but this looks good. So what's the problem with the ZD, What makes the backs better, the ZD has a large sensor like all the backs and 14 bit. Why is it judged not to deliver quite like the backs?
Kevin.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105031\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
the ZD can produce great files....if you can live with its limitations (slow shooting, buffer, stay at 100)....but for people or fashion i would not recommend it....the limited bit depth will also give you mushy shadow detail (comparable to DSLRs) and sometimes problems with gradations (backdrops)....it really depends what you are shooting....
you can get the P20 including a 645afdII and 80mm for 9000$ right now, the P21 with the mamiya is a little more....both will give you the speed and versatility you need for people and fashion with plenty of filesize for anything up to 16x20.....of course both have crop factors....the advantages to this set-up: get a back-up 645 afd on ebay and rent a P45 or P30 when you have a big job.....
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Robert White is selling the ZD with a lens for £5500. +vat. Now that's tempting. i'm looking at Phaseone's etc, but this looks good. So what's the problem with the ZD, What makes the backs better, the ZD has a large sensor like all the backs and 14 bit. Why is it judged not to deliver quite like the backs?
Kevin.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=105031\")
Hi
It really is a price thing but also the ZD has grown on me as I use it way more than my Canon 5D. I also have a large range of Mamiya lenses and 2 645 AFD bodies. One body is the 645 AFDII. On larger jobs we rent the Aptus 22, on editorial we use the ZD. We shoot studio and 90% of the time is at iso 50. Using raw developer the files from the ZD are fantastic. For the most part the buffer is not an issue for me. Take a look at our web site and there are 2 images shot with the ZD. I also love Leaf and it makes sense to reduce the ZD price as it has been out for more than a year now. Also finally L&P will be the agents for Mamiya in Australia, they are also the Phase One agents.
Thanks Denis
[a href=\"http://www.montalbetticampbell.com]My Webpage[/url]
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We shoot studio and 90% of the time is at iso 50. Using raw developer the files from the ZD are fantastic.
My Webpage (http://www.montalbetticampbell.com)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105166\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Denis,
I have been using Lightroom with ZD files recently and it does an OK job.
The interface of lightroom is much easier to use than that of Raw Developper, especially in terms of color control.
RAW Developper on the other hand is much better at handling fringing and at extractring the last bit of detail from the files. It is also much faster than Lightroom to convert the files.
I would expect it to be also very good with files from other digital backs, I am a bit surprised that it doesn't get more attention here.
Regards,
Bernard
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hi
I have had my ZD for about 8months now and I like it more every day. On a recent executive portrait shoot for an annual report I used the ZD at 200iso. I only had about 2/3 min for each executive and had to change the location for every portrait! I decided to use tungsten lights only( easier to move around ) I photographed 44 execs and I were very pleased with the results. All were very sharp and with silky pics noise was more than acceptable, in any case not any worse than film. I only used one lens, the 80 at about f5.6 at 1/30 sec, mostly This one job paid for half of my ZD! And , I thought was adequate compensation for the stress during the shoot! while I have no doubt that the backs are ultimately better than the ZD, price, for me was also a consideration. for the price of a H2 zoom plus p20 back I have just bought myself a very nice car to go with my ZD!
My experience with buying cameras: dont believe a word the salesmen tell you. Test it for yourself. this forum also helps a lot.
I have also just returned from a weekend in Mozambique, totally amazing place, were I did a lot of photographs handheld with the 80mm lens. Also at 200iso. In B&W looks very sharp with a small touch of 'grain'. turns out to be a nice 'street' camera too.
thanks Ivan
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Hi
It really is a price thing but also the ZD has grown on me as I use it way more than my Canon 5D. I also have a large range of Mamiya lenses and 2 645 AFD bodies. One body is the 645 AFDII. On larger jobs we rent the Aptus 22, on editorial we use the ZD. We shoot studio and 90% of the time is at iso 50. Using raw developer the files from the ZD are fantastic. For the most part the buffer is not an issue for me. Take a look at our web site and there are 2 images shot with the ZD. I also love Leaf and it makes sense to reduce the ZD price as it has been out for more than a year now. Also finally L&P will be the agents for Mamiya in Australia, they are also the Phase One agents.
Thanks Denis
My Webpage (http://www.montalbetticampbell.com)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105166\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Lovelly work, regardless of what it's shot on.
Kevin.
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I have been happy about the image quality delivered by my Mamiya ZD.
I have been using it for landscape applications in various environments for a few months, and although there are some issues, the camera does perform.
There might be some pixel peeing differences with Phase P25 or Leaf A22, but they really are of that magnitude I believe.
Some samples are online:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlangui...57594375306114/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/72157594375306114/)
Regards,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105108\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Bernard,
I have seen your work before with the ZD, I can see it suits your needs. The buffer would be a problem for me. I'm in Aircraft a lot of the time, waiting for the camera to let me take a picture is just not cost effective. I'm paying over £16.0 per minute for a helicopter any deadtime comes out of my profit. I would expect a ZD mkII soon, after all fixing the buffer is a easy job compared with other digital engineering problems. In fact you do wonder why they have not done it already.
Kevin.
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Bernard,
I have seen your work before with the ZD, I can see it suits your needs. The buffer would be a problem for me. I'm in Aircraft a lot of the time, waiting for the camera to let me take a picture is just not cost effective. I'm paying over £16.0 per minute for a helicopter any deadtime comes out of my profit. I would expect a ZD mkII soon, after all fixing the buffer is a easy job compared with other digital engineering problems. In fact you do wonder why they have not done it already.
Kevin.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105203\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Kevin if you are UK based, may I suggest that you arrange a demo where you test the ZD and an Aptus 22 on an AFDII side-by-side?
If you can "borrow" a ZD I'll bring the Aptus so you can have an idea of the differences in image quality/ speed etc. while both systems use the same 22MP Dalsa sensor and the same lenses.
Best regards
Yair
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Nice web site Dennis.
Do you not run into the buffer issues which the others are speaking of?
By the way, do you like LiveBooks?
Best,
-ron
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The ZD is like a great big Kodak SLR/n. I think its an excellent camera in most respects with some irritating limitations.
Like the Kodak, your should shoot Raw and overexpose slightly. There are no "mushy shadows" if you understand how the camera designed; quite the reverse, the dynamic range is significantly better than any dslr. Just expose to the right to make the most of the dynamic range, and stay at or below 100 ISO.
Using the right raw decoder helps. I use Silkypix and would not touch anything else. It really is the key that unlocks the potential in the ZD.
Handling is excellent, but the slow and limited buffer could be a limitation for some
(not for me though). Using a fast card helps
At Robert White's price it's quite a bargain for such a high quality tool that blows any dslr out of the water for image quality at low ISO.
Quentin
Nice web site Dennis.
Do you not run into the buffer issues which the others are speaking of?
By the way, do you like LiveBooks?
Best,
-ron
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105232\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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hi
And , I thought was adequate compensation for the stress during the shoot! while I have no doubt that the backs are ultimately better than the ZD, price, for me was also a consideration. for the price of a H2 zoom plus p20 back I have just bought myself a very nice car to go with my ZD!
thanks Ivan
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105198\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
like i said: P20 /mamiya 645afdII/80mm is 8900 new with full warranty....that is cheaper then the ZD....
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Nice web site Dennis.
Do you not run into the buffer issues which the others are speaking of?
By the way, do you like LiveBooks?
Best,
-ron
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=105232\")
Hi
That is why I rent the Aptus 22 on larger Ad jobs. There the buget allows the rental plus I can keep up with technology by renting. And for insurance I have the ZD as a backup as it uses the same lenses. But for the most part the buffer is not an issue & for the first 11 shots the ZD is faster than the Mamiya 645 AFDII/Aptus 22 combination. They both claim 1.2 fs but the ZD is faster before that buffer fills up. In tethered mode I prefer the Leaf, just has better software however the Mamiya software is very simple to use. Depends on how you shoot as my partner will shoot slower & direct more than me. If you are this type of shooter that shoots fast then the Aptus 22 would be much better. Since we have owned the ZD we own more Mamiya lenses now. I would like to get a 24-105 for my Canon 5D but I can't justify it for the amount i use that camera anymore. I shoot mostly handheld with the ZD.
On the subject of Raw Processor yes it is way faster than Leaf or Canon software. I use it with the 5D also but haven't got a profile I am happy with for the Aptus 22. I have got a few profiles for the ZD which I have been meaning to post but have been too busy.
Finally with Live Books we love it. We have the Lite version and are doing monthly payments. The fact that you can upload your own images is majic to us, our previous web site was 2 years out of date. There service is fantastic & changes are made within a day or two of requesting ( ie PDF downloads etc ). I just looked at there web stats and they even have country breakdowns, or if the viewers were on MAC or PC. That was cool.
Thanks Denis[a href=\"http://www.montalbetticampbell.com]My Webpage[/url]
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Great, thanks for all the info Dennis!
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is the slow buffer issue with the zd something that can be fixed in software..and therefore the zd can be upgraded as such or is it something that requires a whole new processor etc in the camera.i.e. a ZD2?
Marc
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Bernard,
I'm in Aircraft a lot of the time, waiting for the camera to let me take a picture is just not cost effective. I'm paying over £16.0 per minute for a helicopter any deadtime comes out of my profit. I would expect a ZD mkII soon, after all fixing the buffer is a easy job compared with other digital engineering problems. In fact you do wonder why they have not done it already.
Kevin.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105203\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi,
what kind of camera do you use for the helicopter ?
regards,
Thomas
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I have not yet tested a ZD myself (though I expect to get one for testing in the next few weeks, as there is now a Canadian distributor). So, I can't comment about its image quality, yet.
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105044\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Michael,
When you test the ZD, be sure to convert the RAW files with either Raw Developper or Silkypix.
Other options like the Mamiya software of Lightroom are OK, but don't do fully justice to the potential of the sensor.
Regards,
Bernard
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Hi,
what kind of camera do you use for the helicopter ?
regards,
Thomas
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105343\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm using a 1DsmkII and Pentax 67. Mostly the 1DsmkII. I'm thinink of moving to MF, not that I've had any problems with the Canon, it's very versatile and handles very well.
Kevin.
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I'm using a 1DsmkII and Pentax 67. Mostly the 1DsmkII. I'm thinink of moving to MF, not that I've had any problems with the Canon, it's very versatile and handles very well.
Kevin.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105432\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi Kevin,
thanks for the info
I made today some helicopter shots with the 5D and 24-70L. I'm not so satisfied you need 1/500 - 8 otherwise the edges are not sharp. better would be 11 but for that it was not enough light.
regards
thomas
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Hi Kevin,
thanks for the info
I made today some helicopter shots with the 5D and 24-70L. I'm not so satisfied you need 1/500 - 8 otherwise the edges are not sharp. better would be 11 but for that it was not enough light.
regards
thomas
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=105509\")
Thomas,
This is why I am considering MF, the wide angle situation often requires stopping down a lot. The Canon 17-40mm does not get sharp across the frame until f10. I'm also using a Sigma 12-24, much better than the 17-40mm for distortion but it still needs f8. The good think about the Canon is you can shoot at 400iso, the digital noise is nothing like film grain would of been at 400iso. The problem is with MF I can't shoot wide at 12mm or have stabilised lenses at 200mm plus. So even if I do jump for a Phaseone etc the Canon will be far from retired.
The 70-200 f2.8 stopped down a little is very sharp, the 50mm f1.4 needs about f4.
On a different note, I use Aperture mostly and Bibble also Photoshop but for sharpness Canon's own DPP gives me something I can't get with any other converters.
I also use a program called Focusfixer [a href=\"http://www.fixerlabs.com/New_Website/pages/focusfixer.htm]http://www.fixerlabs.com/New_Website/pages/focusfixer.htm[/url] I find it adds a natural bite to images.
Here's a sample of the range of images I do, everything from 17 -200mm http://homepage.mac.com/kevin_allen/Test%20Album/index.html (http://homepage.mac.com/kevin_allen/Test%20Album/index.html)
Hope this might help,
Regards,
Kevin.
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The big negative for me is the fact that you can only use Mamiya lenses with it
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105045\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
On my ZD I also use (the very nice) schneider kreuznach and zeiss jena lenses (both p6 mount). For 100mm and up you can get a zörk adapter with tilt and shift that uses the schneider and rodenstock LF and enlagerlenses, wich are very good too.
To bad that there is no wider shiftlens - or any wider lens at all of good quality. I have not seen the promised 28mm mamiya lens appear (and one dealer told me that he doesnt expect to see it this year).
I think for some types of work, the ZD is very good to perfect (but certainly not for fast-shooters). For my work I find the ZD very suitable, shooting interiors and mostly using the lenses nearly wide open. the focus-confirmation light in the ZD helps a lot to nail the focus even with the 1.9/80mm. Any of the alpha, cambo-wide et al would be of no use here.
The dynamic range and the ability to retain highlight-detail are phantastic - and so are the colors.
the mamiya software is useless for converting images - but fine for thethered-shooting, as it always get´s the white balance right, which is important if clients look over your shoulder ( and I dont like to explain to the client that "yes, the pic is green, but it wont be like that in the final picture" all the time).
the only thing about the ZD that realy bothers me, is the fragil firewire-connection.
another plus: I have never seen an error-message on the ZD.
stefan marquardt
www stefanmarquardt de
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Stefan, thanks for valuable information!
An off-topic question: have you tried using 8GB CF card on ZD? I was planing to buy Sandisk IV, but am not sure it ZD will recognise 8GB. Thanks,
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I am afraid, I don´t know. I have only used the ZD tethered so far. If you find out, could you post your results?
stefan
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[If you find out, could you post your results?
I will most likely try next week and will posts the results on this forum
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I have tested Mamiya ZD with 8GB CF card. ZD will save 229 RAW images on 8GB.