Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: Charlie B on February 28, 2007, 10:59:31 pm

Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: Charlie B on February 28, 2007, 10:59:31 pm
Just checked the HP site for firmware update and found TR12-RO_4.1.0.2. Hope it's the help we've been looking forward to.
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: macz5024 on March 01, 2007, 03:40:49 am
Quote
Just checked the HP site for firmware update and found TR12-RO_4.1.0.2. Hope it's the help we've been looking forward to.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=103928\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Have you been able to download it? The links for both Mac and Windows are there but no files are linked ...

 
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: Charlie B on March 01, 2007, 08:30:55 am
Quote from: macz5024,Mar 1 2007, 03:40 AM
Have you been able to download it? The links for both Mac and Windows are there but no files are linked ...


No, I have not tried it yet. It will probably be tomorrow before I have the opportunity.


 https://h41186.www4.hp.com/country/us/en/do...?pageseq=606051 (https://h41186.www4.hp.com/country/us/en/downloads/software.html?pageseq=606051)
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: rdonson on March 01, 2007, 09:44:45 am
Quote
Have you been able to download it? The links for both Mac and Windows are there but no files are linked ...

 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=103955\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I just downloaded the Windoze version (332.8 MB).
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: adiallo on March 01, 2007, 05:10:02 pm
I updated fw to 4.1 then recalibrated and reprofiled on Smooth Fine Art. Man, what a difference! Shadow detail rendering is much more accurate. My problem reds are significantly improved as well. Curious to hear others' results over the next few days.
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: Jim Cole on March 01, 2007, 07:17:33 pm
Amadou,

This is really good news! I have a 44" model being delivered next week. I knew HP would deal with the shadow detail and the dark red mixing. The 2100 models showed that it could be done. The timing is excellent for me. I'm sure that it may take another tweak or two to the firmware of driver to finally deliver all this printer is capable of.

Thanks for jumping on the new driver so quickly and letting the rest of us know that it seems to address the current gamut issues.

Jim
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: macz5024 on March 03, 2007, 07:21:52 am
Quote
I updated fw to 4.1 then recalibrated and reprofiled on Smooth Fine Art. Man, what a difference! Shadow detail rendering is much more accurate. My problem reds are significantly improved as well. Curious to hear others' results over the next few days.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104072\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Ok, finally I was able to download the Mac Firmware as well - there seem to be many links to these firmware updates - and some of them are just dead ends...

Loading it was no problem and the printer seems to be fine after all. Printing went fine as well - but I was not able to improve my results on Crane MuseoMax and Hahnemuehle PhotoRag after recalibration and reprofiling. I used the XRite DTP 20 for a first aid rescue. The profile was a lot better - but Photoshop - and also the printout showed me that on MattePaper I have a lot of out-of-gamut colors in my test chart - which are not present in my 9800 - not even with the Epson driver. So our 9800 will keep its place and I am looking forward to testing the ImagePrint driver as soon as it will be available. ColorByte seem to have found a solution that should be able to solve the problems on matte paper...
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: Jim Cole on March 03, 2007, 11:00:36 am
What a difference in responses to the new firmware.

Macz5024 and zhupanov report no changes (Macz5024 in on a Mac platform and I do not know what platform zhupanof is on) and performance on matte papers is still horrible while Adiallo reports significant changes on matte paper and pleasing results.

What the heck is going on here?

Is this a Mac/PC issue? Is this an incorrect settings issue? Hardware? Software? Inks?

This is just too inconsistent. We need a reality check.
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: joncanfield on March 03, 2007, 11:31:02 am
I'm using the 44" on a Mac and on Windows, and see very significant improvement in reds in particular, but shadow detail is noticably better as well on Photo Rag (HP Smooth Fine Art). I have test prints from the Z3100 with new firmware, along with the Canon iPF5000, Epson 3800, and HP 9180 that I'll be measuring this weekend for color and range. Visually, the Epson looks to still have a bit of an edge in deep reds, but it will be interesting to see the actual values.

Jon Canfield
author "RAW 101", "Print Like a Pro", "The Digital SLR Guide"
co-author "Photo Finish"
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: adiallo on March 03, 2007, 11:32:22 am
This might explain it. Yesterday I got a pdf that lists which paper types are affected by the latest firmware. Luckily, for me at least, the paper I've been testing was on the list. See attached. And according to thepdf this update only affects output going through the RGB driver.
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: CameronT on March 03, 2007, 05:24:42 pm
I've tried to update the firmware from TR12_RO_4.0.0.4 to the new TR12_R0_4.1.0.2 three times now.  It seems great right up until the transfer from the computer to the printer is complete.  I then get a message "Update failed-Invalid File" appears on the printer screen.  Any ideas as to what I'm doing wrong?  Thanks.

Cameron
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: marty m on March 03, 2007, 05:30:19 pm
Quote
This might explain it. Yesterday I got a pdf that lists which paper types are affected by the latest firmware. Luckily, for me at least, the paper I've been testing was on the list. See attached. And according to thepdf this update only affects output going through the RGB driver.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104419\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


 
   HP does it again.  This is MORONICALLY AND INCREDIBLY DUMB.    


The pdf "technical newsletter" EXPLICITLY states that the firmware only applies to the listed papers.  So the logical conclusion is that the improvements do not apply to any other paper types.

This would explain the inconsistent results, but might also offer a solution for Photo Rag as I explain below.

(1)  So, the firmware improvements apply to HP Premium Instant Dry Satin but *NOT* to HP Professional Satin.  

Way to go HP.  Fix your generic satin paper for a top of the line printer, while not doing so for your professional satin paper for the same printer.

The pdf "technical newsletter" would indicate that the reds and shadows are still wrong with HP's own Professional Satin paper, since Pro Satin is not listed as one of the corrected papers.

(2)  The firmware improvements apply to the generic Fine Art Paper but *NOT* to the generic Photo Paper.

According to the pdf "technical newsletter", any other photo paper that is profiled using "photo paper" would be wrong.

So much for having an on-board spectrophotometer and allowing us to use other manufacturer's papers.  HP just undermined their OWN advertised claims to allow us to use any other papers, and not just their own HP branded papers.

I can only hope that this is a quick fix by HP for those papers, and another firmware release for ALL papers listed in the HP driver will be forthcoming.

It was was really dumb for HP to fix part of the paper types that they list in their own driver, but not all of the paper types.

What were these guys thinking?  They use the printer everyday, but issue a firmware patch that applies to only part of their own listed paper types?

The only remaining question is that only those papers were fixed in the firmware because only those papers have a problem ???  The pdf "technical newsletter" doesn't say that, though.

On photo papers --

Has anyone tried the new firmware on both Instant Dry Satin and Professional Satin?  Anyone have both, so you can make a side-by-side comparison?  Is there any difference?  There should be a difference, according to the pdf "technical newsletter"

Has anyone tried the new firmware on Photo Paper (generic) and used a different paper, such as Epson Luster?  That should not work, according to the pdf "technical newsletter."

Finally, for those of you who have the printer, is it possible to create a profile for a different manufacturer photo paper, for example Epson Luster, but to use the HP Instant Dry Satin as the paper type?  Does that work?

On Hahnemuhle Photo Rag --

I'd assume that it should work if the generic "fine art paper" is selected when creating the profile,  along with the correct thickness for those papers, since  the pdf "technical newsletter" lists that as one of the corrected papers.

However, one of the differences in the above postings is that one person got great results with the HP Hahn Photo Rag, and one person got bad results with the standard non-HP Photo Rag.

Those of you with the non-HP 308 Photo Rag -- how does it print with the new (or old) firmware if you print it using the HP Hahn Photo Rag setting?  To my eye, the HP paper is very similar to the non-HP Photo Rag except for the weight.  Even Hahnemuhle only provides one profile for both the 308 and the 460 papers.  

The HP branded paper is lighter, but is the same Photo Rag or not?

My guess is that it is.  So those of you using generic Photo Rag should try the HP Photo Rag setting with the new firmware and see if that works.

Does anyone have both the HP Photo Rag and the non-HP Photo Rag, so you can make a side-by-side comparison?  And make that comparison by printing both first on "fine art paper" and then both using the HP Photo Rag setting?
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: Charlie B on March 03, 2007, 05:53:25 pm
Quote
This might explain it. Yesterday I got a pdf that lists which paper types are affected by the latest firmware. Luckily, for me at least, the paper I've been testing was on the list. See attached. And according to thepdf this update only affects output going through the RGB driver.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104419\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Amadou, how did you get this technical paper?  HP didn't send me a copy and I can't find it looking at their site. Thanks for including the pdf download address

Charlie
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: Charlie B on March 03, 2007, 06:11:50 pm
Quote
I've tried to update the firmware from TR12_RO_4.0.0.4 to the new TR12_R0_4.1.0.2 three times now.  It seems great right up until the transfer from the computer to the printer is complete.  I then get a message "Update failed-Invalid File" appears on the printer screen.  Any ideas as to what I'm doing wrong?  Thanks.

Cameron
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104453\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Cameron, I'm having a problem, also. Each time I try, the printer panel gives me an error code 74:01 and states that the firmware file could not be  uploaded to the printer. HP support has spent a lot of time working with me on this and trying different ideas out on their equipment. We're still working on it. If it helps, I'm using a Mac OSX 10.4.8.

Charlie
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: CameronT on March 03, 2007, 06:35:32 pm
Quote from: Charlie B,Mar 3 2007, 04:11 PM
Cameron, I'm having a problem, also. Each time I try, the printer panel gives me an error code 74:01 and states that the firmware file could not be  uploaded to the printer. HP support has spent a lot of time working with me on this and trying different ideas out on their equipment. We're still working on it. If it helps, I'm using a Mac OSX 10.4.8.

Charlie


Thanks Charlie.  I have windows XP on my system.  I spent a half hour with HP support in Canada this morning.  I was transferred seven times and nobody seemed to know that a z3100 printer existed, before I was finally hung up on... Hopefully someone can help out.

Cameron
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: rdonson on March 03, 2007, 09:02:13 pm
Quote
Cameron, I'm having a problem, also. Each time I try, the printer panel gives me an error code 74:01 and states that the firmware file could not be  uploaded to the printer. HP support has spent a lot of time working with me on this and trying different ideas out on their equipment. We're still working on it. If it helps, I'm using a Mac OSX 10.4.8.

Charlie
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104459\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi Charlie,

Have you downloaded the file more than once?  Could it be a bad download?
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: BradSmith on March 03, 2007, 09:47:54 pm
I downloaded and read the linked HP Tech Paper.  Can anyone explain why the grammar in the HP Tech Paper is so poor?  Even if written by the team in Spain, wouldn't they have had an english-native language person proof read it?

I'm not paranoid, but it almost calls into question the validity of the document.

Brad
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: adiallo on March 03, 2007, 10:20:59 pm
Quote
Amadou, how did you get this technical paper?  HP didn't send me a copy and I can't find it looking at their site. Thanks for including the pdf download address

Charlie
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104456\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I didn't get it directly either. It was sent to me by another HP user. If you register your printer at designjet.com I think there is an option to sign up for newsletters but there are so many sign-up promotions you get after registering and/or ordering from the HP store that I can't keep track.
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: Charlie B on March 03, 2007, 10:24:47 pm
Quote
Hi Charlie,

Have you downloaded the file more than once?  Could it be a bad download?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104488\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hey Ron,

I've downloaded it twice with the same result. I think HP support is suspicious that my original firmware has some corruption. I may try downloading it again, though, just to make sure. Thanks for the suggestion.

Charlie
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: Charlie B on March 03, 2007, 10:31:44 pm
Quote
I didn't get it directly either. It was sent to me by another HP user. If you register your printer at designjet.com I think there is an option to sign up for newsletters but there are so many sign-up promotions you get after registering and/or ordering from the HP store that I can't keep track.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104497\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I did sign up for their newsletter when I registered the printer, but haven't gotten anything but various mailings explaining how to read the newsletter. Tried to find the earlier one on the zebra stripes, too. Couldn't find that on their site either. Thanks for the reply.

Charlie
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: Charlie B on March 03, 2007, 10:36:24 pm
Quote
I downloaded and read the linked HP Tech Paper.  Can anyone explain why the grammar in the HP Tech Paper is so poor?  Even if written by the team in Spain, wouldn't they have had an english-native language person proof read it?

I'm not paranoid, but it almost calls into question the validity of the document.

Brad
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104491\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Good question.
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: Panascape on March 04, 2007, 02:57:03 am
HP Bacrelona indicated to me, on the day the firmware became public, that it was still very much beta and must not be freely distributed. When I mentioned to them that it was publicly availible, they seem shocked.

I am guessing the webteam jumped the gun and posted it before the documentation was completed.
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: ternst on March 04, 2007, 06:57:46 am
I'm signed up for their special alerts too and never got anything on this or the zebra stripes - just the same old "how to read" BS, which never made any sense to me (I already knew how to read). HP has fallen well short of my expectations for this very expensive printer...
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: macz5024 on March 04, 2007, 06:58:18 am
Quote
HP Bacrelona indicated to me, on the day the firmware became public, that it was still very much beta and must not be freely distributed. When I mentioned to them that it was publicly availible, they seem shocked.

I am guessing the webteam jumped the gun and posted it before the documentation was completed.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104518\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


The question remains whether the documentation is very much beta - or the firmware itself

At least it's working and the download of the Mac version seems to be fine so far. I have tested again and found that there is a slight difference when using PhotoRag (original paper 188 by Hahnemuehle) together with the profile on the HP website or with the one created using the internal software (which leaves the question open whether there is a difference between the "two" PhotoRag papers). The results are quite ok now - but not as "pleasing" as with Epson K3 printers.

This is valid for yellow colors mainly. If I compare the profiles - HP PhotoRag profile, my own profile and a Epson 4800 PhotoRag profile - using ColorThink Pro it becomes clearly visible that the bright/light yellows by Epson are much "clearer" than the ones from the Z3100. These yellows have quite an impact on the "brilliance" of the reds. On the other hand the blues of the Z3100 are much more natural than Epson blues which tend to be very violet after having seen the HP blues... On the whole, the deficiency of the bright yellows of the Z3100 on matte paper has an impact on many images resulting in out of gamut warnings where there were none with K3 printers.

Hopefully HP can bring the yellows better into play
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: Panascape on March 04, 2007, 07:37:51 am
While I can't say too much I can say that HP is going to be doing a lot of parallel testing against printers like Epson’s and will be looking to optimise the colour mixing for all medias so that they can equal or better the Epson in saturation while maintaining a larger gamut across all medias. Currently the new firmware only has a handful of media that have been improved.
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: ricgal on March 04, 2007, 09:36:15 am
Quote
On Hahnemuhle Photo Rag --

I'd assume that it should work if the generic "fine art paper" is selected when creating the profile,  along with the correct thickness for those papers, since  the pdf "technical newsletter" lists that as one of the corrected papers.

However, one of the differences in the above postings is that one person got great results with the HP Hahn Photo Rag, and one person got bad results with the standard non-HP Photo Rag.

Those of you with the non-HP 308 Photo Rag -- how does it print with the new (or old) firmware if you print it using the HP Hahn Photo Rag setting?  To my eye, the HP paper is very similar to the non-HP Photo Rag except for the weight.  Even Hahnemuhle only provides one profile for both the 308 and the 460 papers. 

The HP branded paper is lighter, but is the same Photo Rag or not?

My guess is that it is.  So those of you using generic Photo Rag should try the HP Photo Rag setting with the new firmware and see if that works.

Does anyone have both the HP Photo Rag and the non-HP Photo Rag, so you can make a side-by-side comparison?  And make that comparison by printing both first on "fine art paper" and then both using the HP Photo Rag setting?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104454\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi Marty M
Many of the points you made have been swimming round my skull whie I lie awake at night-  I shall be trying the HP branded photo rag setting to see how it compares.  A true test would be expensive in terms of time and materials and as I am also upgrading the firmware at the same time it will not isolate the cause.  
My previous examination shows that the HP pro Satin matches the gamut of the Premium ID Satin right down to lumnosity of 25 then the premium satin pulls away which is what you might expect since the Pro Satin has a more fibre based look

There is undoubtably a discrepency between the concept of a printer with an oboard spectro which allows easy acces to a diverse portfolio of papers and the reality which is that the printer is so carefully honed to to perform on OEM papers alone as to make this potential freedom of choice for the printer an illusion.
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: marty m on March 04, 2007, 02:01:51 pm
Quote
Hi Marty M
Many of the points you made have been swimming round my skull whie I lie awake at night-  I shall be trying the HP branded photo rag setting to see how it compares. 
There is undoubtably a discrepency between the concept of a printer with an oboard spectro which allows easy acces to a diverse portfolio of papers and the reality which is that the printer is so carefully honed to to perform on OEM papers alone as to make this potential freedom of choice for the printer an illusion.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104551\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks very much for your positive comments.  I'm glad to know that someone noticed the post, since yours was the only comment.  HP needs to fix the firmware and software so that the onboard spectro works with all papers -- that is the big advertised claim for this printer.  At the present time this printer FLUNKS with regards to HP's own advertised claims for it.  A good start would be to include the generic "Photo Paper" in the list of papers that work with the new firmware release.  (As well as to include their own top of the line photo paper, Pro Satin, since they didn't do that either.)  They need to turn out another firmware release ASAP for those two settings.  The generic Photo Paper, and Pro Satin.

Quote
While I can't say too much I can say that HP is going to be doing a lot of parallel testing against printers like Epson’s and will be looking to optimise the colour mixing for all medias so that they can equal or better the Epson in saturation while maintaining a larger gamut across all medias. Currently the new firmware only has a handful of media that have been improved.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104551\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'm glad to hear it.  Let's face it, HP has dropped the ball on this printer and badly fumbled.  Why are they offering a $1000 rebate?  To reclaim market share from Epson.  20 years ago HP was the top dog in printers.  At the present time, in photographic printers, it is basically only Epson, and Canon as a distant second.  The goal of HP is clearly to technologically leap-frog over Epson with the Z3100 and offer a combined $1300 rebate (printer and paper) to knock Epson down a few notches.  That marketing approach is failing at the present time.  At least one of the participants on this site has posted that he has decided to not purchase the HP and instead buy from a different manufacturer -- and has requested info on what to buy in this forum.

The Z3100 FLUNKS the most basic test of all when it comes to a professional printer.  Photographers won't buy this printer, even with a $1300 rebate, if it isn't even printing correctly.  

This unit was not ready for prime time, and the release should have been delayed until the problems were fixed.  Some of you have gone through agony to fix the problems, at considerable expense in terms of your time and materials.  Panascape is one of those, and we all owe him, as well as others, a huge debt of gratitude.

Quote
At least it's working and the download of the Mac version seems to be fine so far. I have tested again and found that there is a slight difference when using PhotoRag (original paper 188 by Hahnemuehle) together with the profile on the HP website or with the one created using the internal software (which leaves the question open whether there is a difference between the "two" PhotoRag papers). The results are quite ok now - but not as "pleasing" as with Epson K3 printers.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104551\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

(1)  One explanation for that is that Hahenmuhle itself provides two different profiles -- one for Photorag 188, and a different one for Photorag 308 and 460.  (I apologize if my previous post wasn't clear on that point.)  My guess is that the HP Photorag, with a weight of 265, is close to the profile for 308, so I was wondering if the standard non-HP branded 308 prints OK if you just use the profile for the HP-branded Photorag.  

That is distinction, based on weight, is also confirmed on the HP web site.  Click on any of the *names* of the ICC profiles, and you next see a list of the profiles.  On that list, HP and Hahnemuhle says that the "Photorag" profile is for papers less than 250, and the "Photorag 2" profile is for papers that are greater than 250.

The other issue is that *all* profiles for the Z3100 are now out of date.  The profiles on the Hahnemuhle web site for the Z3100 were based on the original firmware.  The profiles for Hahnemule on the HP web site were created in early January, so they are out of date as well.  

So the only way to get an accurate profile with the new firmware is to depend on the on-board spectro.  Forget the old profiles on the HP or Hahn sites -- they are DOA and too old.

(2) Which leads to another interesting question, that I posted but no one responded to.  Does the APS deliver better RGB profiles than the standard HP software for standard RGB printing, rather than for CMYK?

No one responded to that.  Maybe because those who bought the APS don't want to confess that it was a waste of $1000?  

(3) ONE FINAL REQUEST FOR PANASCAPE OR ANYONE ELSE WHO IS IN COMMUNICATION WITH HP SPAIN -- tell them to read this forum, if they aren't already doing so.  The main reason that none of us should make any excuses for HP is that they will be motivated to improve the printer if they are getting slammed in forums like this one.  There are plenty of photographers will will read this forum and decide not to buy the Z3100 with or without a rebate.  There have now been a number of threads reporting on serious problems.

The only hope for those who have invested in the printer is that HP will be concerned enough about lost sales in the future to fix the problems in the printer.  Let's face it, what motivates HP are future sales, even more than the few printers they already sold to the folks on this forum.

The latest firmware helped, but it has still not solved the problem of yellow and reds.

(4)  And a PS for Michael Reichmann.  Many of those who purchased the Z3100 did so based on your over-the-top and wildly enthusiastic endorsement of the printer.  Your comments to HP carry more clout than any of us.  You need to run your own tests, and post on your own forum with your results, and if negative, communicate that to HP.  And post it on your web site as a giant correction to your over-the-top review.  

It might be appropriate to do that right under the disclaimer that HP gave you a long term loaner for free.  

Michael owes his readers at least that.
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: Christopher on March 04, 2007, 02:21:36 pm
Quote
(4)  And a PS for Michael Reichmann.  Many of those who purchased the Z3100 did so based on your over-the-top and wildly enthusiastic endorsement of the printer.  Your comments to HP carry more clout than any of us.  You need to run your own tests, and post on your own forum with your results, and if negative, communicate that to HP.  And post it on your web site as a giant correction to your over-the-top review. 

It might be appropriate to do that right under the disclaimer that HP gave you a long term loaner for free.   

Michael owes his readers at least that.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104602\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I don't want to say, that I bought it because of his review only, but it gave me the final confidence to buy it. Which was a mistake. Now I really think they will fix it and after that the printer will be gigantic. (Otherwise I would have already sold it) But right out of the box it was a disaster.
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: marty m on March 04, 2007, 03:02:22 pm
Quote
I don't want to say, that I bought it because of his review only, but it gave me the final confidence to buy it. Which was a mistake. Now I really think they will fix it and after that the printer will be gigantic. (Otherwise I would have already sold it) But right out of the box it was a disaster.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104605\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

And I would add the same comment for all of the over-the-top reviewers.  Some of who shilled their reviews on this forum.  I refuse to believe that they have not seen the same problems.

It is important to recognize that reviewers who who write for publications are paid to do so.  Many of those publications don't print critical reviews or they bite the hand that feeds them with advertising.  That means that reviewers who want to get paid know that they have to be propagandists for the manufacturers, or the their reviews don't get published, and they don't get paid.

Michael Reichmann, of course, doesn't have that excuse.  His web site is his alone.  And he doesn't accept advertising.  His site is, as I understand it, largely paid for by the sales of his outstanding DVDs.

So if advertising isn't the problem, what is?  I recall reading that Michael Reichmann is out of pocket and travelling.  I can only hope that is the case, and the reason for his prolonged silence on all of the problems with this printer.  

Because, in my view, Reichmann's credibility rests on whether he corrects his review, does so publicly, and adds to the pressure that is needed for HP to kick it into high gear to fix the problems with this printer.

It would be an understatement to say that he owes his loyal readers nothing less.
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: Panascape on March 04, 2007, 03:20:29 pm
I think HP can very grateful for all who have posted useful information here. The results and findings and the diversity of the results has really helped narrow down the variables which has helped get to the heart of the problem.

I do believe that we will get the issues sorted out by realistically there are quite a few different issues that need to be handled and this could take a bit of time. I know for a fact that HP is committed to getting this resolved.

I must agree with some sentiments that the printer is not ready to be in the market and I would expect to see changes on many fronts in the near future and it will be interesting to see how HP handles these especially given the number of machines in the field.

Not wanting to excuse HP but IMO the beta test sites let HP down badly on this one and the reviewers did HP even less of a favour. I would urge reviews and testers in future to follow a regiment testing procedure and to publish this when they write the articles as it will give us a far better idea of how much we can rely on those articles to make a decision.

In the next few weeks I will be doing a series of head to head tests between an Epson 4000 and the HP, with both devices being profiles on the same media using the same charts and the same profiling equipment. The equipment that will be used will be a Colorvision PrintFix and the HP’s internal EyeOne.

The aim of these tests is to try get to a base comparison that can be used to optimise as many of the HP’s media types in as short a period as possible.

I will continue to let you know as much information as I am able to.

Robert
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: Panascape on March 04, 2007, 03:24:27 pm
If anyone would like a particular paper test, let me know offline.
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: marty m on March 04, 2007, 03:30:44 pm
Quote
I think HP can very grateful for all who have posted useful information here. . .
I must agree with some sentiments that the printer is not ready to be in the market and I would expect to see changes on many fronts in the near future and it will be interesting to see how HP handles these especially given the number of machines in the field. . . .Not wanting to excuse HP but IMO the beta test sites let HP down badly on this one and the reviewers did HP even less of a favour. I would urge reviews and testers in future to follow a regiment testing procedure and to publish this when they write the articles as it will give us a far better idea of how much we can rely on those articles to make a decision.
Robert
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104623\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Robert, thanks very much.  Do you know for certain that this web site is being closely monitored by HP in Spain?

Can you send HP in Spain an email with an urgent request that they need to do so?

And SPECIFICALLY this thread, since it is this thread that is reporting on the latest firmware and making recommendations?

I have no idea how to communicate with HP in Spain.  You're the only one with direct access to them.

You would do all of us a great service if you could do that.

Quote
In the next few weeks I will be doing a series of head to head tests between an Epson 4000 and the HP, with both devices being profiles on the same media using the same charts and the same profiling equipment. The equipment that will be used will be a Colorvision PrintFix and the HP’s internal EyeOne.

The aim of these tests is to try get to a base comparison that can be used to optimise as many of the HP’s media types in as short a period as possible.
Robert
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104623\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Robert's comment only underscores that YOU and THE POSTERS ON THIS FORUM who have become the GUINEA PIGS and beta testers for HP.  

HP has enormous resources.  They should have already done that.  Or should already be doing it. I greatly appreciate Robert's efforts, but if we must depend on ourselves to figure out what is wrong with this expensive door-stop, then we are dead meat.

So, again, it is important that Robert or anyone else with access to HP tells them to read this thread.  They have a huge team.  How many worked on this printer?  Several hundred engineers?  HP, get it together.  Run the tests that Robert is proposing, fix the printer, and issue new firmware.  

And this time -- ISSUE FIRMWARE THAT COVERS ALL PAPER TYPES IDENTIFIED IN YOUR OWN DRIVER AND STOP BEING A SELF-PROMOTING SHILL FOR YOUR OWN PAPERS.  

P.S.  The reason I keep using the words "Michael Reichmann" is the hope that he might google himself, if he isn't reading his own forum.

Michael Reichmann OWES us a response.  The only legitimate reason he has for not correcting his review is if he is prepared to tell us that he has not seen any of these problems.  (And as noted above, Michael Reichmann might be travelling, and that might be the reason for his silence for the last three weeks.)

Geez.  His review has the title "Absolutely Brilliant."  And his opening line on the opening page of his web site is that the Z3100 "may be the best photographic quality printers yet."

Let's call that for what it is -- false advertising.

This printer is anything but.  It is absolutely brilliant only with regards to its failures and undelivered promises at this point.

I look forward to reading Michael Reichmann's amended review in the near future.
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: macz5024 on March 04, 2007, 04:03:44 pm
Quote
While I can't say too much I can say that HP is going to be doing a lot of parallel testing against printers like Epson’s and will be looking to optimise the colour mixing for all medias so that they can equal or better the Epson in saturation while maintaining a larger gamut across all medias. Currently the new firmware only has a handful of media that have been improved.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104539\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


While responding to this post I have to mention that I have read the new posts as well.

Just to "translate" this post and others which I have just read it says to me: welcome to the guinea pigs of HP. Comparing an HP Z3100 with an Epson 4000 shows, where the state of the art of these HP printers may actually be...

I think that both HP and Canon have done a great job to improve Epson's position in the market. They just put new printers on the market that might be better because of some more inks. Both of them failed in the first round as the software/driver was not ready neither for the printer nor for the market. If they would be better after some later improvements - time and the users will tell...?! (just to mention that these printers are in the market now for at least 6 months). If not, they may put some new printers on the market. And you will never know if these printers are ok (for you) unless you buy and test them.

If Epson will come out with "two black (pk and mk) printers" such as the 3800 (but really improved and big ones) I guess that the situation gets somewhat narrow for the "newcomers". Look at the paper handling of both HP and Canon. That's not really designed for fineart printers using both rolls and sheets.

Just look at the dirty yellow (which is the base color) in the head check pattern of the Z3100 and you will have your doubts whether the yellow/red problem can ever be solved by the software/firmware/driver. Rumours are around that there will be new printers. With new colors? Why not put some new colors in old printers and change the situation - at least HP is still using the Vivera brand and no one would bother... However, as I know the market, if you want new inks you need a new printer.
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: rdonson on March 04, 2007, 04:12:29 pm
Quote
This printer is anything but.  It is absolutely brilliant only with regards to its failures and undelivered promises at this point.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104627\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Marty, that's pretty harsh.  I understand your anger but you bought the first release of a sophisticated, new device.  Did you think there wouldn't be any problems?  

Would you want HP to take their time and get it right before issuing the next firmware release or take a shotgun approach and release new firmware every few days until everyone is weary of firmware releases?

HP may have enormous resources but often fixes of this nature take some time for experimentation and evaluation to get right.
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: marty m on March 04, 2007, 04:32:44 pm
Quote
Marty, that's pretty harsh.  I understand your anger but you bought the first release of a sophisticated, new device.  Did you think there wouldn't be any problems? 

Would you want HP to take their time and get it right before issuing the next firmware release or take a shotgun approach and release new firmware every few days until everyone is weary of firmware releases?

HP may have enormous resources but often fixes of this nature take some time for experimentation and evaluation to get right.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104632\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

We'll have to agree to disagree.  These are pretty OBVIOUS problems.  Go back at look the test images posted by Christoper in another thread.  They show glaring problems in reds and yellow.  Even in images as basic as fall colors on trees, or red rocks in Utah.  My mother, or your mother, could see the difference.  Let alone a professional photographer.  Are the HP engineers blind?

This printer was not ready for prime time; should not have been released with these problems; and is certainly not brilliant in light of all of these problems.

The fact remains that HP only began to correct these problems after their guinea pig users identified them on this forum.  HP MUST have seen these problems prior to the release of the printer for sale.  They are simply too obvious.  That suggests that they rushed this printer to the market to make money -- and did so at our expense.

Again, go back and look at the tests posted by Christopher and others.  

I'll agree that HP should not be issuing firmware every couple of days.  But it also is the case that the printer should have corrected these issues before it was released and sold to the public.

I'm not an engineer.  But I recall reading that HP used hundreds of engineers on this project.  If they mobilize those resources, they can issue new firmware within two weeks that will address these issues, and do so for ALL OF THE PAPERS LISTED IN THE DRIVER.

Finally, if I am harsh, it is in direct response to the over-the-top and exaggerated reviews.  I recognize that Michael Reichmann may have not seen these problems in his initial review and experience with the printer.  Michael is not HP.  He is but one reviewer and only one man.

But now that these issues have been identified, and on his own forum, I'd like to see  a response rather than silence.  (Once he returns home from travelling, if that is the case.)

And I'd like to see an amended review, that should carry this headline:

"The new HP Z3100:  As of yet, undelivered brilliance."

And then Michael can make the case, and I'd agree, that the many innovations in the Z3100 carry the PROMISE of brilliance.  But that has not been delivered on yet.
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: ricgal on March 04, 2007, 04:42:27 pm
I have just reprofiled HPR 308 using the new firmware and the 900 patch APS target then compared it in Gamut works to the one i did prior to the upgrade and it is identicle in every way which i found a little disappointing  I used the Generic FA setting as that is on the list as having been improved.
I am wondering wheter to bother going through the hastle of reprofiling all the other papers now.
Any one else tested the new firmware on the ground?
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: marty m on March 04, 2007, 04:45:27 pm
Quote
Just look at the dirty yellow (which is the base color) in the head check pattern of the Z3100 and you will have your doubts whether the yellow/red problem can ever be solved by the software/firmware/driver. Rumours are around that there will be new printers. With new colors? Why not put some new colors in old printers and change the situation - at least HP is still using the Vivera brand and no one would bother... However, as I know the market, if you want new inks you need a new printer.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104629\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If you are correct, then all the engineering resources in the world won't fix the problem.  Not if the mistake was so basic, and so fundamental, as to include the wrong color of yellow in the ink set.  That might also explain why these issues weren't corrected prior to the release of the printer, and haven't been completely fixed since these issues were identified on this forum.  Because, if you are correct, there is no solution with the current yellow.

HP could, of course, issue a new yellow, recall all of the yellow cartridges that have been issued, and correct the firmware.

But they will do that when pigs fly.
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: Christopher on March 04, 2007, 05:24:31 pm
Quote
If you are correct, then all the engineering resources in the world won't fix the problem.  Not if the mistake was so basic, and so fundamental, as to include the wrong color of yellow in the ink set.  That might also explain why these issues weren't corrected prior to the release of the printer, and haven't been completely fixed since these issues were identified on this forum.  Because, if you are correct, there is no solution with the current yellow.

HP could, of course, issue a new yellow, recall all of the yellow cartridges that have been issued, and correct the firmware.

But they will do that when pigs fly.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104642\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Ok I really think some of you are going over the top. I don't think that there will be any new printer from HP in the next year except a 17" model. Secondly sorry I don't know what ink you are using, but my yellow looks way better than anything from my R2400...

Also there is a problem, but not as huge as some of you are telling. I printed over 100 really nice Fine Art Prints. YES only on Glossy so far, but they are still really good. A lot Black and White, which certainly is better than anything from Epson.

To the profiling test. Yes there is already a big difference between the old profiles on HP ID Glossy. Especially below and above a L value of 50. ( around 75 and 25 )
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: Jim Cole on March 04, 2007, 06:31:38 pm
Christopher,

Thanks for your calming input. I have a 44" Z3100 coming later this week and I have a hard time believing that the printers are as bad as a few people are making them out to be. Disaster...I think not. Problems with certain papers that will be fixed by HP in the near future...I think so. I have seen spectacular prints coming out of these machines and I have a hard time believing that HP released a yellow ink that is brown.

Thanks again
Jim
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: BernardLanguillier on March 04, 2007, 07:01:26 pm
As a current Epson 4000 user potentially interested in buying into something larger in the coming months, I have been reading the Z3100 related posts with great interest. I have to say that I am very surprised by the widely diverging comments I have come accross.

For the sake of the credibility of this debate, I feel that it would be good at this stage if all the posters could publish their real names, credentials and fine art printing experience.

Some very harsh bashing of a printer is being done by some people I know nothing about. Nothing personal but frankly speaking, as an objective by-stander, nothing prevents me from thinking that the negative comments are being put up by Epson marketing.

Thank you in advance for the clarifications.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: Christopher on March 04, 2007, 07:13:32 pm
Quote
As a current Epson 4000 user potentially interested in buying into something larger in the coming months, I have been reading the Z3100 related posts with great interest. I have to say that I am very surprised by the widely diverging comments I have come accross.

For the sake of the credibility of this debate, I feel that it would be good at this stage if all the posters could publish their real names, credentials and fine art printing experience.

Some very harsh bashing of a printer is being done by some people I know nothing about. Nothing personal but frankly speaking, as an objective by-stander, nothing prevents me from thinking that the negative comments are being put up by Epson marketing.

Thank you in advance for the clarifications.

Cheers,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104665\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I don't know about you, but people who spent 7000EUR on a printer which doesn't quite work as it should, have some room to complain. I don't care about what some are saying, but I have a 44in Version here and I'm like robert in contact with HP Barcelona. They know of most of the problems and they are working on them.

I don't think my name will change anything of what some might think. I posted enough avidence of different problems and good news of changes. ( Gamut test of Epson against HP ) I also don't want to name anyone here, but some people who in the beginning started to underact the problem and know stoped posting, had a connection to HP in one way or another.

I don't have any connection to HP, Canon or Epson. I just want a product that works and is woth its money.
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: marty m on March 04, 2007, 07:21:59 pm
Quote
Nothing personal but frankly speaking, as an objective by-stander, nothing prevents me from thinking that the negative comments are being put up by Epson marketing.

Thank you in advance for the clarifications.

Cheers,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104665\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'm employed in an unrelated field, and not for Epson.  I have no affiliation, paid or unpaid, with any company in the photographic, printing, software, graphics, graphic arts or any remotely related field.  My views are my own, and I'm not speaking for any company.  

With regards to the comments about the yellow, I specifically said, at least twice, that the concern about yellow would apply if the views expressed "are correct."  So I accept the comments in that regard from Christopher.

I personally believe that these problems can be fixed -- if HP wants to direct their large engineering team into making this a top priority.  Where I differ with some forum participants is that I believe they will only do so if the pressure continues.  

Consider this -- these problems were identified when Z3100 users did something as simple -- as basic -- as printing test images that anyone can download off the web.  If HP is such a power house and reputable company, backed by so many engineers, how could they have failed to do what forum participants did?  Namely, to print simple test images, and compare the results to prints made from competing printers using the same test images.  What could possibly be more basic than that?   I again refer you to the tests done by Christopher, that show that the Z3100 can't even print fall colors as well as Epson.  At least not at that time, using the firmware at that time.

If HP didn't do that prior to releasing the printer -- if they failed to correct these gamut issues before selling a $4000 or $6000 printer to all of us -- then why would they do so now?  

HP will only do so now, including simple tests like printing test images, if they have reason to believe that the criticism on this site and others will cause a decline in sales.  As it should.  No one should buy the Z3100 until the users all agree that these gamut issues have been largely corrected.  That is not the case today.

Finally, what would really get the attention of HP is if the overly enthusiastic reviews are corrected to honestly reflect what the printer does right versus what it does wrong.  Michael Reichmann did an excellent job of doing just that with regards to the Canon printer, and I am hopeful that he'll do the same in the case of the Z3100.  Michael's current review, using words like "brilliant" and proclaiming it to be the best printer yet, doesn't pass that test, or any other laugh test.  What we all need is a balanced review, and balanced commentary.  

I'll concede that I am so irritated by the complete lack of balance in that review and others, that my own comments were equally unbalanced, but in the opposite direction.  The printer certainly has a number of positive attributes that I previously failed to mention. I think the on-board spectro and profiling, it ever works properly in conjunction with the driver to deliver high quality prints, is an exciting innovation.  I am really tired of making profiles by hand with the X-Rite Color Elite system.  Ditto with the gloss enhancer, which appears to work as advertised.

It is **CRITICALLY IMPORTANT** that the next firmware release cover **ALL** paper types listed in the driver, so that we can use the on-board spectro for any non-HP paper, and that is not the case with the current firmware.  That is aimed almost exclusively, and shamelessly,  at HP paper.  As my earlier post said, this directly undercuts the advertised claims for the Z3100 to be able to profile and use any papers -- not just HP papers.

Finally, last but not least, if I am too harsh, some of you are making too many excuses.  For a $4000 or $6000 product, this wasn't ready for prime time.   Christoper is right in that regard.  The defenders of HP can't ignore that prints made from a widely used test image showed all of us just that.  I own a 4000 and it worked out of the box largely as intended and as advertised.  

Someone made the observation that what the Z3100 will accomplish -- if these issues are not rapidly resolved -- is to INCREASE the market share for Epson, not the reverse.  That is not exactly the outcome that one would expect for a "brilliant" printer that is now the best on the market, according to Mr. Reichmann.

My apologies to all if my comments were a bit verbose.  I've stated my views, and will leave the rest of the discussion to all of you.  It is not my intention to dominate the discussion, and I apologize to all if I was guilty in that regard.
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: Mussi_Spectraflow on March 04, 2007, 08:01:32 pm
The firmware upgrade offers marked improvements. What there doing is tweaking the ink mixing/limiting. If one of the papers you use has not been updated try creating a new paper type, slecting one of the media types that has been updated as your base type, and building a profile using those settings. Try the litho setting for photo rag.
     On the Pro satin paper, I'm getting a total gamut that equals or excedes anything from the K3 inkset. I just got some of this media in and I'm blown away by the quality it produces. Again the HP and Epson offer different gamut coverage.However, I can not agree that the result are completely inferior or not ready for production. In actaul ink on paper comparisons between the K3 printers, on both matte and RC papers, I have been very happy with the results from the HP.
    I dont have time for an in depth reply right now justifying why I feel the way I do, let me say that my opinions however are based on significant testing. I have a review (about 10 pages worth) that is going to be posponed untill later this week to factor in the new firmware(and a busy schedule!). I'll go more in depth there.

One point worth considering....head checks are not great for testing color. Usually the maximum amount of ink on paper does not represent the maximum chroma that that ink can produce. When profiling a RIP you run into this a lot. You will often find that you get more chroma from an ink limited to 80% than from 100%, with little change to the L* value.

Julian Mussi
www.spectraflow.com
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: Panascape on March 05, 2007, 02:52:03 am
As I have said before, HP is working on optimising the colour mixing formulas and a few media have already been optimised and shows a big improvement (still not where I need it to be, but some may be happy) while other media’s still have a long way to go.

The big problem as I see it is that there are no tried and tested formulas for mixing 7 colorants where as CMYK mixing has been around for a long time and there is a lot of information where as with 7 colorants it is pretty much trial and error.

Some Rip users are claiming better results than those using the HP driver and I assume this is due to the RIP manufacturers having done some of their own optimisation but cannot confirm this myself..

There were quite a few users who asked my advice before buying the printer and I recommended that they wait to see what happens.  Those who went ahead and bought the printer knew what they were getting into.

Macz5024, as for dirty yellows, I have not seen this and am not aware of any problem with this so it might be a problem specific to your machine.

Bernard, as for us working for Epson, my name is Robert Miller, I am the director of new product development for Hamillroad Software, I have no ties whatsoever to Epson and I am not being paid for any of the testing I am doing for HP. Good enough?

I will be doing a lot more testing with HP and will be happy to keep posting the results here.

Robert
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: BernardLanguillier on March 05, 2007, 03:11:30 am
Quote
Barnard, as for us working for Epson, my name is Robert Miller, I am the director of new product development for Hamillroad Software, I have no ties whatsoever to Epson and I am not being paid for any of the testing I am doing for HP. Good enough?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104730\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Excellent Robert, thank you.

Regards,
Bernard
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: denis_ on March 05, 2007, 07:05:40 am
Hi Julian,

From the tech note it seems like the firmware doesn't apply to the HP pro satin... did you reprofile it and find improvements?
thanks,

denis

Quote
     On the Pro satin paper, I'm getting a total gamut that equals or excedes anything from the K3 inkset. I just got some of this media in and I'm blown away by the quality it produces. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104679\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: Christopher on March 05, 2007, 07:18:03 am
Quote
Hi Julian,

From the tech note it seems like the firmware doesn't apply to the HP pro satin... did you reprofile it and find improvements?
thanks,

denis
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104766\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'm not sure what he did, but I would use HP ID Satin for paper setting and than you see some great results.
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: marty m on March 05, 2007, 12:04:36 pm
Quote
I'm not sure what he did, but I would use HP ID Satin for paper setting and than you see some great results.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104768\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

In color and B&W?  With reds and yellows?
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: Mussi_Spectraflow on March 05, 2007, 03:20:40 pm
The tech note gamut plots were made with ID satin, I haven't reprofiled it yet, so this reflects the older firmware. The Pro satin can reproduce a very large gamut, the lowest total volume i've measured from it is 750K, I've also gotten results that are much larger but I need to recheck these, our DTP 70 is out of play for the time being so I have to use the eye one.
     I'm confused by one point of criticism, are some people going to be unhappy unless the HP excedes the Epson in evey manner? I have a 1280 in the closet that will probably excede the 9800's gamut, but is it a better printer?I really dont think the conclusion is going to be that model X is better than model Y. I defer the analogy to the camera market, what is better a Canon 1Ds or a Hasselblad H2? depends on what your shooting!!! The HP is showing strengths in blues, greens, and High L* values, the epson on other fronts. From the results I have I can say that in a general sampling of common imagery the HP produces exceptional prints.
      If you pick the one point on the red axis that is out of gamut on the HP, and in gamut on the Epson the Epson will look better, this is a strength of the K3 inkset. I'm puzzled why people overlook issues like ink waste, BW performance, archival life, interface, driver usability, paper handling, these things matter too. I'm not trying to give HP a get out of jail free card here, there are some issues. They have addressed many of them, and there's reason to suspect that they will continue to be addressed. As it stands now it is an excellent printer. Is it better than the Epson...depends on who you are, and what you do. All I can say is that they are BOTH excellent printers.
     As for my creds'... I am a color workflow consultant, and our company is a reseller of both Epson and HP printers. I also personally own a 9800, and my background is in photography and fine art printing. I offer my comments as being representative of my experience working with these products, and try to limit them to the areas that I have first hand knowledge.
     
-Regards

Julian Mussi
www.spectraflow.com
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: Charlie B on March 05, 2007, 03:40:31 pm
Quote
The tech note gamut plots were made with ID satin, I haven't reprofiled it yet, so this reflects the older firmware. The Pro satin can reproduce a very large gamut, the lowest total volume i've measured from it is 750K, I've also gotten results that are much larger but I need to recheck these, our DTP 70 is out of play for the time being so I have to use the eye one.
     I'm confused by one point of criticism, are some people going to be unhappy unless the HP excedes the Epson in evey manner? I have a 1280 in the closet that will probably excede the 9800's gamut, but is it a better printer?I really dont think the conclusion is going to be that model X is better than model Y. I defer the analogy to the camera market, what is better a Canon 1Ds or a Hasselblad H2? depends on what your shooting!!! The HP is showing strengths in blues, greens, and High L* values, the epson on other fronts. From the results I have I can say that in a general sampling of common imagery the HP produces exceptional prints.
      If you pick the one point on the red axis that is out of gamut on the HP, and in gamut on the Epson the Epson will look better, this is a strength of the K3 inkset. I'm puzzled why people overlook issues like ink waste, BW performance, archival life, interface, driver usability, paper handling, these things matter too. I'm not trying to give HP a get out of jail free card here, there are some issues. They have addressed many of them, and there's reason to suspect that they will continue to be addressed. As it stands now it is an excellent printer. Is it better than the Epson...depends on who you are, and what you do. All I can say is that they are BOTH excellent printers.
     As for my creds'... I am a color workflow consultant, and our company is a reseller of both Epson and HP printers. I also personally own a 9800, and my background is in photography and fine art printing. I offer my comments as being representative of my experience working with these products, and try to limit them to the areas that I have first hand knowledge.
     
-Regards

Julian Mussi
www.spectraflow.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104844\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
As I've read the posts under this "Firmware" topic over the last couple of days, I couldn't help but wonder what we would be saying about Epson's K3 printers if the Z3100 had come out a couple of years prior to the Epsons. Would we be hammering Epson over their blue or green colors in comparison to that of the HP's. Or, as you say, Epson's waste of ink. And, I'm not saying HP doesn't need to correct or improve in certain areas as it does need to do so and, I think, will


Charlie
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: pcox on March 05, 2007, 03:42:28 pm
I just took delivery of my 24" Z3100 today, and have run a few prints through it with the new firmware. I didn't print anything before doing the upgrade, so I can't speak to any improvement from the last version as far as my own prints are concerned.

That being said, I have to say that I'm pleased with the results. I have several images which have highly saturated colours, especially reds, and those print beautifully. Perhaps a bit less saturated than the Epson prints I'm used to, but it handles out of gamut colours well - there are no anomalies or obvious areas of clipping.

I'm happy to frame and sell these prints.

For the record, I'm using Hahnemuhle Photo Rag 308gsm (not HP branded, although it ought to be the same paper). I did a calibration/profile using the 'Fine Art Paper >250gsm' paper type, and ran the prints with perceptual rendering intent.

Cheers,
Peter
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: Charlie B on March 05, 2007, 03:48:35 pm
Quote
I just took delivery of my 24" Z3100 today, and have run a few prints through it with the new firmware. I didn't print anything before doing the upgrade, so I can't speak to any improvement from the last version as far as my own prints are concerned.

That being said, I have to say that I'm pleased with the results. I have several images which have highly saturated colours, especially reds, and those print beautifully. Perhaps a bit less saturated than the Epson prints I'm used to, but it handles out of gamut colours well - there are no anomalies or obvious areas of clipping.

I'm happy to frame and sell these prints.

For the record, I'm using Hahnemuhle Photo Rag 308gsm (not HP branded, although it ought to be the same paper). I did a calibration/profile using the 'Fine Art Paper >250gsm' paper type, and ran the prints with perceptual rendering intent.

Cheers,
Peter
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Glad to hear that. I was beginning to feel bad about starting this topic in the first place.

Charlie
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: macz5024 on March 05, 2007, 05:05:26 pm
Quote
Macz5024, as for dirty yellows, I have not seen this and am not aware of any problem with this so it might be a problem specific to your machine.

Bernard, as for us working for Epson, my name is Robert Miller, I am the director of new product development for Hamillroad Software, I have no ties whatsoever to Epson and I am not being paid for any of the testing I am doing for HP. Good enough?


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Thank you Robert

Just to let you know that I have no affiliation with all these companies. I am just a fine art printer looking for new improved techniques/printers and tired of losing money when I would like to print on glossy instead of matte paper. I also teach workshops and when doing so, I want to know what I am speaking of based on my own experience. Therefore I invest a lot of time and money in new machines and software. HP and Canon made me hope that the story of the blacks would be over and with 12 inks at least the same results would be possible as with 8 inks.

Up to now I was quite disappointed with what I have seen from the Canon iPF5000 and now from the Z3100 - which I have bought despite of all rumours and reports. There is still some hope that either HP or a RIP manufacturer will bring us to really great results that will lead into a new aera of inkjet printing: large gamut (Adobe RGB should at least be the aim ), no more gloss differential, metamerism or bronzing.

As for the yellow I do not speak of a brownish yellow - on my printer it looks sort of light green/grayish yellow - not as warm and golden as the Epsons yellow. It looks very cold to me so that I can hardly believe that it will be able to let my strawberry reds look warm enough  But let's give them a chance. We are in the boat already.

Markus
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: ricgal on March 05, 2007, 06:07:37 pm
I have just reprofiled Prem ID Satin with the new firmware using the APS 900 patch target.  The gamut improvement in the lower luminence sectors is huge over the original canned profile that I got with the printer and a small but significant improvement over the previous firmware upgrade.  for the first time it is leaving way behind my Epson 4000 in terms of gamut volume even in the darks.  You may say that it should have done this a long time ago because the 4000 is old  BUT  it has already far surpassed it in terms of B&W,  metamerism, bronzing and longevity.
Practically I hopel I can offer a superior alternative to Lightjet with the Prem ID Satin with a reasonable degree of confidence,  time will tell!
I look forward to the advantages being translated to non HP papers.
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: marty m on March 05, 2007, 11:09:20 pm
HP has posted a new ICC profile installer that is dated March 1.  You can find it here:

http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsupport/TechS...35&swEnvOID=228 (http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsupport/TechSupport/SoftwareIndex.jsp?lang=en&cc=us&prodNameId=3204971&prodTypeId=18972&prodSeriesId=3204970&swLang=8&taskId=135&swEnvOID=228)
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: EricWHiss on March 06, 2007, 11:32:48 am
Quote
HP has posted a new ICC profile installer that is dated March 1.  You can find it here:

http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsupport/TechS...35&swEnvOID=228 (http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsupport/TechSupport/SoftwareIndex.jsp?lang=en&cc=us&prodNameId=3204971&prodTypeId=18972&prodSeriesId=3204970&swLang=8&taskId=135&swEnvOID=228)
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Hi Marty,
Thanks for the link.  I wonder why they don't have the new profiles available for download on the Mac section?  

I'd love to soft proof some of the images I was having trouble with reds with the earlier profiles....can anyone either point me to a link to the new profiles or even send me one? I think if the profiles are bundled with an installer, it won't work since I don't have a printer yet and the installer will quit.  

Thanks,
Eric
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: mcbroomf on March 06, 2007, 08:36:25 pm
Quote
(3) ONE FINAL REQUEST FOR PANASCAPE OR ANYONE ELSE WHO IS IN COMMUNICATION WITH HP SPAIN -- tell them to read this forum, if they aren't already doing so. 
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I did this when the red gamut issue came to my attention (I was engrossed in the buckling problem for some time).  I asked if they both read this forum and if they were aware of the red issue.  They confirmed on both accounts.
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: Tom.D.Arch on March 07, 2007, 12:59:58 am
I'm reading this thread as someone who is likely to purchase a Z3100 for a variety of reasons, but is not especially knowledgeable or experienced with high-end digital printing.  I'm proposing to my boss that we spend a lot of money on this device, so when people are freaked out about the quality of the images coming out of them, I am concerned.  I have to read these posts and try to reason out how bad the situation is.  Maybe the Z3100 is fatally flawed, and we should wait or get a different printer.  Maybe it isn't that bad, we wouldn't really notice the difference and by the time the device has been on the market for a year, these issues, such as they are, will be largely worked out.  How can I decide?

When I read Marty M's posts, I get a sense of hysteria.  Maybe the situation is really bad, despite multiple good reviews from seemingly knowledgeable (though not entirely unbiased) reviewers.  But I have to ask myself, if there are "OBVIOUS" (his caps) problems with the prints that mean that the device shouldn't be on the market as it currently stands, and Marty bought one anyway, what's going on with Marty?  Marty seems to provide a lot of emotion, but not a lot of hard data or points of solid comparison.  Did Marty make a decision without much knowledge, and is now feeling buyer's remorse?  How much weight should I give to his posts?

In contrast Mr. Mussi and Mr. Miller (Panascape), who sound like they are knowledgeable, experienced, provide lots of data and comparisons and are well reasoned in their posts, are quite calm about the situation.  They both point out room for improvement, and they also give reasons why improvement is likely (e.g. doing actual ink mixing tests).  The impression I get from them is that while the Z3100 has some strong points, it is not perfect and means that a buyer will have to recognize that there will be trade-offs, just as with any other decision.

Well, caveat emptor.
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: Thomas Krüger on March 07, 2007, 01:31:26 am
Well said Tom, I'm also a potential buyer with my decision to get a Z3100. After reading all the threads I'm a bit suspicious in investing money for the high end Z3100.
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: marty m on March 07, 2007, 01:35:14 am
Quote
I'm reading this thread as someone who is likely to purchase a Z3100 for a variety of reasons, but is not especially knowledgeable or experienced with high-end digital printing.. . When I read Marty M's posts, I get a sense of hysteria. . .
In contrast Mr. Mussi and Mr. Miller (Panascape), who sound like they are knowledgeable, experienced, provide lots of data and comparisons and are well reasoned in their posts, are quite calm about the situation.  They both point out room for improvement, and they also give reasons why improvement is likely (e.g. doing actual ink mixing tests). 
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(1)  Read my most recent post, above,  where I responded to Bernard's question as to whether I am employed by Epson.  I leave it to all of you to judge whether I am hysterical.  The fact remains that serious problems were identified by simply printing test images and comparing those HP prints to Epson prints made from the same test images.

Bear in mind that I was not the first to identify the problems.  The reports, and the very long threads, came from others.  I have simply put it in perspective, by noting that the users who did reveal the problems had performed the most obvious tests imaginable.  By any definition at all, this printer was not ready for public release.

You question my use of the word "obvious."  That suggests that you have not read previous threads, as I was referring to the images posted by Christoper.  You don't have to be an expert to see the differences.  Yes, at that time, the differences were obvious.  This printer -- that costs either $4,100 or $6,300 -- should not have been released for sale with such glaring problems at that time.  So before denouncing me as "hysterical" for simply noting the, yes, the obvious, read all the threads.  

And as I noted above, in my view HP will only commit the resources to fix the problems if pressure is applied.  I base that on the above conclusions and their previous record in prematurely releasing a flawed product.

I couldn't say it better myself -- buyer beware.

(I'd also note that some of the so-called experts may be anything but.  One of them privately wrote to me that the APS is based on gretag software, but the on-board system is not.  At least I've read the promotional literature to know those assertions were wrong.  And I'm not trying to sell these printers either.  At least I don't have any conflict of interest, of any kind.)

(2)  The printer is gradually improving, and the recent firmware is a step in the right direction.  The main problem with that firmware is that, based on the technical paper from HP itself, it doesn't include generic paper types such as "photo paper" and is aimed only at HP papers, and that undermines the rationale for the on-board spectro.  However, different owners have reported differing results in that regard.  As I previously posted, my earlier comments were unbalanced and failed to list the many technological advances of this printer.    

(3)  I recommend you privately contact some of the individuals you name and solicit their opinion off of the forum as to whether you should buy now, or wait to see if the problems are resolved.  One of the individuals you cite did warn folks to delay any purchases until these issues are resolved.  The jury is still out in that regard.

(4)  The obvious recommendation would be to wait for a few weeks, and see if HP solves these problems with new firmware.

My final comment may surprise you. IF HP issues firmware for **ALL**  paper types -- including non-HP paper -- that fixes the gamut issues or head strike issues (although the zebra stripes might be user error as much as anything) --

If HP does that, then this printer might actually deserve to be called "brilliant."  

But not yet.

P.S.  If you aren't intimately familiar with high-end printers, you might consider starting a separate thread, and list what you'll use the printer for; what your price range is; what type of prints you'll make; and whether you will print lots of smaller sizes or just a few very large sizes.  And solicit opinions as to what would work best for you. An issue as basic as a paper tray, and whether you need a tray, can make a big difference on what printer you might select.
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: EricWHiss on March 07, 2007, 01:44:29 am
Hi All,
I'd like to thank everyone for their contributions to this thread - its really been a big help and I'm thankful that so many of you are sharing your knowledge and test data with us.  I kind of think its also helping HP, which in turn helps us.   I know that my dealer has pointed his HP contacts to this thread as well.  

Since I don't have mine yet, and can't install the new firmware and profiles and actually test it out, and in fact the HP installers won't even let me unpack or install the profiles without a printer...I'd really love it if one of you could post a gamut comparison chart between the new and old for one of the typical papers like Satin or HPR.  Of particular interest to me is the red, yellow and purple parts of the gamut as I work with a lot of floral stuff which has these colors.  Even better if someone could e-mail me a profile for the machine so I could soft proof some of the images.  (my email is artist at eh21.com)


Thank you very much,
Eric
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: Panascape on March 07, 2007, 03:56:11 am
As you all may have gathered, I am in contact directly with HP and I am also in contact with many users worldwide.

A big question that was asked by HP and me was why some people are happy and some are not. Was it perhaps that some machines had faulty ink…

A lot of research has gone into this and it seems the situation is as follows.

Different users have different expectations from a printer. This is evident when I see what comes out of the local professional printing labs which is why I purchased my own printer 4 years ago. The strange thing is that many people are very happy with the results these labs give them although they are often not even close to the original image.

It is ironic that I was already working on an article called owning your colour prior to taking delivery of the z3100. This article deals with many photographers not managing their colour themselves and not knowing what they actually gave the print shop. I suspected this would be a small group but research and interviews showed it was a very large group and even more surprising, they were for the most part happy with the prints they were getting.

This indicates that there are too basic requirements from a printer. One group wants vibrant colourful prints and is not too worried about how closely the print matched the original, the second group needs as close to absolute colour accuracy as possible.

The latter group seems to be the smallest by far. I have seen samples from sites that are happy with the prints and personally I am not happy with the results but as one user pointed out, he prints his own images and no one knows what it is meant to look like and as long as he is happy with the results, there is no problem.

Taking all of this into account, there are most probably users who are going to be very happy, users who are not going to fully satisfied and users who are going to find the results unacceptable.

I have a very professional client base who demand accurate colour and my studio has a grey room with calibrated HP LCD monitors (go figure, these are actually astoundingly good) to ensure maximum accuracy. For me the z3100 currently cannot produce results close enough to what myself or my clients require.

There have been many varying opinions posted here but for my part, I expect anyone who is critical about colour will not be happy with the HP whereas in my opinion my Epson 4000 is currently producing acceptable colour. For users who are less critical the z3100 may be ok.

I can confirm that HP is working on the colour issues but they have not been able to give me a time frame as they are still investigating ways to resolve the problem. I can also confirm that they are aware of this forum.
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: EvoM on March 07, 2007, 04:42:01 am
Thanks Panascape for your input and comments. i suppose I'm a bit in both camps as i wasn't happy with various lab output and have the Z3100 to create a closed loop for colour accuracy and the best fine detail at our studio.

Having said that, i now wonder if all the complaining to labs has been totally "their" problems although I'm sure their colour and detail can vary lots on the durst lamda's. I am having to adjust various things like saturation, contrast etc. to get to the quality of prints I like but am fairly happy.

I suppose what I'm hoping for is to maintain consistancy and "fine-tune" as i go, which i think we are doing. I do believe my prints are far more accurate and have much better detail now with the Z3100 44 and it sure beats the turn-around times!

Cheers, Evo
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: Panascape on March 07, 2007, 04:50:00 am
In some cases it isn't the labs but very often it is. A properly calibrated monitor (using an Eye one or Monaco) will give you the confidence that the problem is not on your end. The next step is to get the labs printer profile, if they have one (many don’t think they need one) and to soft proof with it.

Many users that I have spoken to feel the same way that you do in that the z3100 is so much better than what they are used to getting. From my end it is currently a step backwards from what I am used to getting.
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: Christopher on March 07, 2007, 07:16:31 am
Quote
In some cases it isn't the labs but very often it is. A properly calibrated monitor (sing an Eye one or Monaco) will give you the confidence that the problem is not on your end. The next step is to get the labs printer profile, if they have one (many don’t think they need one) and to soft proof with it.

Many users that I have spoken to feel the same way that you do in that the z3100 is so much better than what they are used to getting. From my end it is currently a step backwards from what I am used to getting.
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Robert made one excellent point here. I don't want to spent 7000EUR on a printer who can't give a better performence than my 800EUR printer. I'm not saying that I want a 1:1 copy of a artwork, but it must be close. It just is really frustrating, if you print something on the Z3100 and think oh that looks good. Than take the same paper and print on my R2400 and I suddenly notice. It looks much better. And that can't be the point.
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: pcox on March 07, 2007, 07:19:09 am
I think Panascape's reasoning is very sound - if you are a photographer who's used to Epson or Canon prints, and you require absolute precision in the colour of your prints, then the HP is not (yet) for you.

If you're like me and are happy with prints that aren't 100% accurate but which have predictable treatment of out of gamut colours, then you can certainly live with the printer.

Zebra striping is not an issue if you specify the correct paper weight initially. Unlike some initial reports, the treatment of out of gamut colours (especially reds) is just fine - they get mapped to a very believable shade.

I await the next firmware release with interest, but not with panicky breathing.

Now let me forestall any flames from people who will say this is all well and good for me, but what about their requirements?

I'm providing this comment as a bit of devil's advocate for those people who are considering buying the printer who are looking for a positive comment. So there it is - don't buy the printer if you require absolute colour accuracy and the same gamut as the Epson. Otherwise, go ahead - you won't be disappointed.

It's also my belief that gamut will increase as further firmware development is made. I am irritated that HP would release what amounts to a beta product on the market like this. But that being said, they seem to be taking the feedback seriously and working on it.

As for the comment on why the initial firmware release mainly covered the HP papers - I'm sure that the rest of the paper types will be covered in the next release, and I'd rather have some imrovement now in some papers than have to wait for everything.

Cheers,
Peter
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: marty m on March 07, 2007, 11:04:52 am
Quote
I think Panascape's reasoning is very sound - if you are a photographer who's used to Epson or Canon prints, and you require absolute precision in the colour of your prints, then the HP is not (yet) for you.

If you're like me and are happy with prints that aren't 100% accurate but which have predictable treatment of out of gamut colours, then you can certainly live with the printer.

Zebra striping is not an issue if you specify the correct paper weight initially. Unlike some initial reports, the treatment of out of gamut colours (especially reds) is just fine - they get mapped to a very believable shade.

I'm providing this comment as a bit of devil's advocate for those people who are considering buying the printer who are looking for a positive comment. So there it is - don't buy the printer if you require absolute colour accuracy and the same gamut as the Epson. Otherwise, go ahead - you won't be disappointed.

It's also my belief that gamut will increase as further firmware development is made. I am irritated that HP would release what amounts to a beta product on the market like this. But that being said, they seem to be taking the feedback seriously and working on it.

As for the comment on why the initial firmware release mainly covered the HP papers - I'm sure that the rest of the paper types will be covered in the next release, and I'd rather have some imrovement now in some papers than have to wait for everything.

Cheers,
Peter
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Many compliments to Peter, Robert and Christoper for their excellent and balanced comments.  I certainly won't flame you!  

My previous point was simple --  Robert and Christoper ran simple tests, by printing standard test images, on HP and Epson, and compared the results.  The HP engineers should have already done just that, and not released the printer for sale in light of the results.  I was denounced as "hysterical" for making that point.

I entirely agree with Peter on his final point.  We need a new firmware release first, even if it is only for HP papers.  Then they can follow up with a firmware release that includes "photo papers" and "fine art papers" that are not HP products.

Final comment.  Corporations are corporations.  They are driven by the bottom line.  They release flawed products prematurely to try to get a return on investment.  To be surprised by this is the equivalent of Casablanca -- that we are shocked!  shocked!  that HP would do that.  It is naive to simply defend HP as some great company, and ignore the record of HP with regard to this printer.

Nor should we surprised, down the road, if they don't commit the resources to fix the problems without pressure from this forum.  They didn't do it the first time, and won't do it now left to their own devices.  The balanced comments from Peter, Christoper and Robert are perfect.  The message to HP is that professionals who demand accurate color should not purchase  this printer at this time if that is what they require.  

That applies the necessary pressure on HP to correct these problems so that the Z3100 moves from a printer for advanced amateurs to a printer for professonals.  After all, few advanced amateurs will spend $4100 or $6300 on a printer.  

HP either turns this into a printer for pros, or they are not likely to sell enough to recover their investment, let alone take market share from Epson.
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: Panascape on March 07, 2007, 11:29:37 am
I have been looking over the posts here and talking to lots of people today and there is one possible factor that users who are happy with the z3100 must take into account.

There will be changes made to the colour mixing and there could even, in a worst case scenario, be new ink sets. All of this means colour changes from what you are getting now and new profiles. If you are using the printer for edition printing, you may want to think carefully about this or print the whole edition at once otherwise you may find you cannot match the print again at a later stage.
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: marty m on March 07, 2007, 11:40:14 am
Quote
I have been looking over the posts here and talking to lots of people today and there is one possible factor that users who are happy with the z3100 must take into account.

There will be changes made to the colour mixing and there could even, in a worst case scenario, be new ink sets. All of this means colour changes from what you are getting now and new profiles. If you are using the printer for edition printing, you may want to think carefully about this or print the whole edition at once otherwise you may find you cannot match the print again at a later stage.
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On the worst case scenario of a new ink set.  That would be costly for existing users.  A new set of cartridges would approximately cost us $80 x 12 = $960.

If HP does that, they must supply a new set of starter cartridges to all existing users at their cost, especially if we'd have to flush the ink lines.  

Alternatively, HP would have to provide a pretty deep price rebate for existing users.

The individual who raised the yellow ink issue should be smiling.  He also got flamed, and whether he was right or wrong on the issue of yellow, it indicates that fundamental issues related to ink are at least under review.  

But it does indicate that HP is reading this forum, is under intense pressure (a good thing IMHO), and is looking at all options to fix these problems.  

As I said above, the basic mechanical architecture and design of the printer is fantastic.  If HP can deliver on the promise of the printer (on-board spectro, ability to profile and use all papers including non-HP, glosser, etc) it will be the best on the market.

But that promise has not been delivered on as of today.  Stay tuned.

And many thanks to Robert -- you are helping everyone who is using this product, across the globe.
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: Panascape on March 07, 2007, 12:05:05 pm
Maybe just to clear up one thing, HP is not talking about new inks, I am just looking ahead to what the worst case scenario may be. I am pretty sure that everything would be done to avoid this at all costs.

The colour changes though will more than likely be a reality from one version of firmware to the next.
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: EricWHiss on March 07, 2007, 01:38:32 pm
Lot's of great comments from all and yes, individual perspectives, expectations and experience level will change the way people will view this printer.

There's no doubt that some of you have way more experience and knowledge about printing than I do.  I've never built my own profiles or used a non manufacturer supplied inkset (other than piezotones) or used a RIP that can control each ink channel individually.  

The thing about color that got me started on this thread -  It's like using a synthesizor to make sounds - its all fine and everyone likes the cool music until you try and imitate a piano. Now everyone (even a small child) knows what a piano sounds like and then they can immediately tell the synth music is fake.  With the HP, I tried to print a red rose and it came out mostly flat red with orange spots.  I may not be the best judge of color accuracy and as an artist I don't care so much as long as I get something that looks good, but a red rose has to look like a red rose!  

Maybe HP decided that mostly landscape photographers were going to use this and tailored their inkset choices to cover sky blue, ocean blue, green grass and ?

I think the zebra stripes was a real issue too, but looks like it was resolved?

Anyhow I do still plan to buy one of these but hope the problems with red's and yellows can be further improved. Sounds like I will be happy with the B&W prints already.

Eric
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: Mussi_Spectraflow on March 07, 2007, 01:41:25 pm
There is no way that HP will come out with a new inkset to replace the existing inkset for the HP Z3100. Developing an inkset is an enormours undertaking that requires years of developement and millions of dollars. And why would they?
     I have to put my foot down and say that some of the contentions are simply wrong. I'm attaching a comparison of the 9800 with the Luster paper using an atkinson profile vs the canned profile of the Z3100 using the pro satin paper. The full-color gamut is the 3100, the wireframe is the epson. Notice that the HP gamut is LARGER than the Epson gamut on almost all fronts. Low L* cyan/greens are the one major area where the epson gamut pokes out. The total gamut is much larger on the HP at this point, A total vloume of 757K for the epson and 821K for the HP.

Okay lets address the clain that the 1st gen ultrachrome series is blowing away the 3100. Here are another two comparisons, also Atkinson profiles vs canned Hp profiles. 9600 ultrasmooth vs HP3100 smooth FA. The full color is the HP, the black Wire frame is the 9600.  So.... Again I restate what I said earlier is that in reality both printers are producing great results. Form many images (portraits) all of you colors are going to fit in an even smaller gamut and so you will never notice a difference. In regards to color accuracy I have profiles that have been optamized down to a average delta E of 1.2 and a peak delat E of 4, so this claim doesn't hold watter. Yes in this test I was using a RIP, however the RIP is using the HP ink limiting.

     Notice I'm still not saying that the HP is cut and dry a better printer. I think Epson makes a great product, and they have a proven track record. However I think some of the claims need to be grounded. I've had this printer for over three months, and I've watched the evolution of it. I used the Atkinson profiles which are very good and accesable, and canned profiles from HP which are free, I think this is a fair comparison. Actually it's a little biased because the custom profiles I've built show even more improvement. Perhaps we can change the tone towards being a little more constructive. Complaints are good whne they drive a solution, to that goal I offer any help that I can

Regards-
Julian Mussi
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: Panascape on March 07, 2007, 02:12:38 pm
Julian I appreciate your comments and agree you have done a lot of testing and do have valid results.

What has transpired though is that at least three different major players testing this problem have all decided to stop using gamut graphs to test the machine as they are showing misleading results are all three are in agreement that this probably contributed to ending up where we are.

The graphs all show the z3100 as having a larger gamut which is true, however the graphs do not show clearly that most of the z3100's gamut is comprised of lighter brighter colours and that the 3100 has a big problem with darker saturated colours. This in effect means that although the z3100’s gamut is bigger (infact huge compared with some Epson’s), in the professional arena it will lose to machines with smaller but better colour saturation.

This wasn't something that just appeared out of nowhere but came from a lot of testing as the physical results from the z3100 compared with other printers did not match what the graphs were showing.

The first indicator that there was a problem was when the gamut was looked at from another angle where the size of the gamut and maximum colour saturation were looked at differently. The results were very revealing and correlated with what was being seen on physical prints.

Now on the subjects of RIP’s, yes the rips are using some of HP’s ink limiting but certain manufacturers are also secretly testing other work abounds. So far an EFI RIP has managed to match the CMYK ISO standard on a z3100 but printing through the HP driver on the same machine could not.

What you are seeing is quite probably good or better than what we are seeing but due to the variables in the equation, especially the RIP,  one must consider that while the results from RIP’s are valid in indicating what the machine could possibly do, comparing the results from a rip with the results from the HP driver is not advisable until there is more clarification on exactly who is doing what.

I do know for a fact that the pressure we are placing on HP is nothing compared to what some of the RIP manufacturers are placing on them.
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: Mussi_Spectraflow on March 07, 2007, 02:41:46 pm
Robert,

    The gamut plots I posted are not done through a RIP but through the driver. Secondly the plots are three dimensional and I've included shots from several angles so that you can see the ENTIRE gamut and you will find that the inital lead the K3 printers showed in low L* gamut has been diminished. The matte paper comparison shows a top and bottom view of the gamut. I think it's rather hard to argue with the potential of the inks to produce large gamut prints.
      In regards to accuracy in a proofing environment I think that's it's fair to expect to use either custom profiles or a RIP to achieve those results. Some of the canned Epson profiles use a black point of zero, which does not help in regards to accuracy. And I dont know any serious proofing environments that rely on canned profiles. However my previous point was only in regards to gamut, and i still fail to see where the major problem is in regards to gamut. Accuracy is still being figured out and I agree that with seven nodes of primary colors this is a much more complex issue, I do not see it as an insurmountable issue either. And on some fronts it currently yeilding acceptable results (EFI XF)

Julian Mussi
www.spectraflow.com
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: Roscolo on March 07, 2007, 02:44:02 pm
Quote
Different users have different expectations from a printer. This is evident when I see what comes out of the local professional printing labs which is why I purchased my own printer 4 years ago. The strange thing is that many people are very happy with the results these labs give them although they are often not even close to the original image.

It is ironic that I was already working on an article called owning your colour prior to taking delivery of the z3100. This article deals with many photographers not managing their colour themselves and not knowing what they actually gave the print shop. I suspected this would be a small group but research and interviews showed it was a very large group and even more surprising, they were for the most part happy with the prints they were getting.

This indicates that there are too basic requirements from a printer. One group wants vibrant colourful prints and is not too worried about how closely the print matched the original, the second group needs as close to absolute colour accuracy as possible.

The latter group seems to be the smallest by far. I have seen samples from sites that are happy with the prints and personally I am not happy with the results but as one user pointed out, he prints his own images and no one knows what it is meant to look like and as long as he is happy with the results, there is no problem.

Taking all of this into account, there are most probably users who are going to be very happy, users who are not going to fully satisfied and users who are going to find the results unacceptable.

I have a very professional client base who demand accurate colour and my studio has a grey room with calibrated HP LCD monitors (go figure, these are actually astoundingly good) to ensure maximum accuracy. For me the z3100 currently cannot produce results close enough to what myself or my clients require.

There have been many varying opinions posted here but for my part, I expect anyone who is critical about colour will not be happy with the HP whereas in my opinion my Epson 4000 is currently producing acceptable colour. For users who are less critical the z3100 may be ok.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105177\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Ouch. This printer is marketed to pros and is priced accordingly. I have the expectation that colors will match or be very, very close. HP knows this. If they have developed this printer to do otherwise, then they have made a very foolish decision. Isn't color matching why they built in the spectro? Wasn't color matching and management supposed to be THE main attraction to pros?

I don't just print photos. I pay a lot of bills by printing making prints of artwork (paintings) for artists. The colors have GOT to match or be very close. Considering that I can do this rather well with even 6 color Epson's, the z3100 is not looking so good right now.

Of course, there aren't that many participants in this forum, much less this thread. So maybe some of these problems are related to individuals not managing color well, although I doubt it from some of the posts I've read here. Looks like most folks know what they are doing.

Anyone using the z3100 to make prints of paintings? Having problems?

For now, based upon what I'm reading here, I'm looking much more closely at the Canon ipf8000. And eargerly anticipating the ipf6000, as a 24" printer will suit my needs well.
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: Panascape on March 07, 2007, 03:01:30 pm
I would really expect EFI to be getting the best results for a number of reasons that may or may not become public knowledge.

None of the testing is being done with canned Epson profiles but rather new profiles for both devices made under very controlled conditions.

So far 4 papers have been tested with 2 profiling systems and the measurement data compared and so far the HP loses significantly to the Epson 4000 in colour depth and saturation of the red, green and blue in all 4 tests.

The data from these tests is already being analysed with the aim of improving the saturation of the deep colours. More tests on a variety of media is planned and in process.

What has been agreed on is that profiling is a vital process as it gives quantifiable measurements for comparison however just a visual comparison of the top row of Gretag’s RGB 1.5 chart puts the whole situation clearly in perspective.

Also devices have to be compared using the same media otherwise results are invalid. A site reported that the z3100 printing on pro satin paper surpassed the Epson 9600 (HP pro satin is seeming to be an unbelievably good media). They were asked what the Epson was using and it was using HFAP. They were asked to re test with both devices on the same media and unfortunately their Epson once again surpassed the HP.

The conclusion, results are only valid and acceptable if both printers are using the same media and are profiles with the same device.
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: Panascape on March 07, 2007, 03:04:32 pm
Quote
Anyone using the z3100 to make prints of paintings? Having problems?

For now, based upon what I'm reading here, I'm looking much more closely at the Canon ipf8000. And eargerly anticipating the ipf6000, as a 24" printer will suit my needs well.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105318\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

At the moment based on my results I would have to say right now that the HP is far better suited for a CMYK proofing environment.

I personally would wait a bit to see what happens before deciding to buy a canon as it seems they have their own problems.
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: chris anderson on March 07, 2007, 03:28:39 pm
Quote
At the moment based on my results I would have to say right now that the HP is far better suited for a CMYK proofing environment.

I personally would wait a bit to see what happens before deciding to buy a canon as it seems they have their own problems.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105323\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]




What problems are the Canon's having? I hear of no color gamut problems with the ipf8000............
    Chris
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: Panascape on March 07, 2007, 03:35:29 pm
Quote
What problems are the Canon's having? I hear of no color gamut problems with the ipf8000............
    Chris
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105330\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

No colour problems but they seem to be having firmware issues and there are some reports of driver problems. I am not saying don't go for a canon, I am just saying that I think it is too early to tell which way to go. There are also rumblings of a new Epson on its way.

Oh yes forgot to mention that some of the annoying HP driver issues are being attended to.
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: chris anderson on March 07, 2007, 03:44:52 pm
Quote
No colour problems but they seem to be having firmware issues and there are some reports of driver problems. I am not saying don't go for a canon, I am just saying that I think it is too early to tell which way to go. There are also rumblings of a new Epson on its way.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105333\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]



like others i have been watching this thread. I have a ipf8000 and it has been running fine. I prefer to print on luster or glossy papers so, i have been hoping hp will come through soon as the glossy optimizer seems to be the ticket. On another note, the guys at colorbyte tell me that epson has nothing coming in the near future, probably next year at the earliest,
    C
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: Panascape on March 07, 2007, 03:46:34 pm
It is certainly going to be intersting to see what happens in the next few months and to see if Epson do infact bring something out.
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: chris anderson on March 07, 2007, 04:00:57 pm
Quote
It is certainly going to be intersting to see what happens in the next few months and to see if Epson do infact bring something out.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105339\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


are you hearing of something coming sooner? I belive a 60 inch printer is supposed to show, and a new magenta formulated ink, that is all i have heard.
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: Panascape on March 07, 2007, 04:02:45 pm
The guys I have been talking to are not hearing specifics, only bits and pieces. There have been unconfirmed rumours for a while about a VLF machine in the pipeline. I have also heard that they are looking at the magenta ink in the K3 inkset as the current one is a bit too red.
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: Mussi_Spectraflow on March 07, 2007, 08:40:21 pm
"I would really expect EFI to be getting the best results for a number of reasons that may or may not become public knowledge."

      Actually I never said I was getting "better" results. The EFI proof is however generating  the prints from which I stated that the accuracy of the printer seemed to be good. Using a RIP I was able to confirm that the prints we were producing were in tolerance.


"So far 4 papers have been tested with 2 profiling systems and the measurement data compared and so far the HP loses significantly to the Epson 4000 in colour depth and saturation of the red, green and blue in all 4 tests"

     I think this needs to be put in context. Are you saying that at all L* values the epson is producing more chroma than the HP on both matte and RC papers? This is contrary to the gamut plots, the measured data, and the prints that I have been producing. Or are you are talking about the low L* values on matte paper? There's a big difference between those two statements. As i've said many times the two printers show contrary gamuts, they trade areas of maximum saturation. However under no situations am I finding the entire HP gamut to be consumed by the Epson. Can you post a profile?

Julian Mussi
www.spectraflow.com
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: Mussi_Spectraflow on March 07, 2007, 10:42:51 pm
Here are 3d gamut shots top, and bottom view. The full color is the HP, the black Wire Frame is the Epson. They are both on the Epson Enhanced Matte, both printed using the printers drivers, both using the same profiling software, and measuring device. I see diferences, not an outright winner. The total volume is almost exactly the same.  The prints both look good with good neutrality throughout all the tones. Also these are using the K3 inks which have improved gamut over the ultrachrom inkset.

Julian Mussi
www.spectraflow.com
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: Panascape on March 08, 2007, 01:04:27 am
Thanks for doing the comparison but unfortunately the total volume has never been the problem. Your graphs are showing the problem exactly as it is in that the Epson is beating the HP in primary red, primary blue and primary yellow. This is exactly where the problem lies.

The HP as expected wins on the brighter colours and pastels.

Your graph is illustrating the problem that has been found, the differences in the primaries are clear but do not seem overly significant but they are as the colours that they showing play a huge role and have a big knock on effect.

Just to explain for those here who may be a bit confused by all this. Looking at the right hand plot, you will see a rainbow shape with a black grid and two lines around it. The colour area is the HPz3100 and the black grid is the Epson with K3 INKS.

If we look at the two “circles” these represent the size or volume of the gamut “the colours the device can produce”. The first relevant factor here is the 3 bulges in the grid around the area where you would expect to find primary blue, red and yellow. These bulges indicate that the Epson is able to achieve more saturated primaries which have a huge impact on fine art printing. In contrast the HP has a better gamut around the greens and purples due to its extra inks.

What can get deceptive with these graphs is the scale. Although the areas in question can look small, they can actually represent a substantial volume of colour.

What we can clearly see from the two graphs is that the HP is better around the saturated to dark magenta colours which is not unexpected due to the fact that the Epson K3 ink set has a reasonably red magenta which can impact the magenta accuracy. The Epson is much better around the areas of primary red, yellow and blue which will give it a noticeable advantage if you were trying to print fire engine red for example.

What is not so apparent is that the HP is better with the lighter and brighter greens but falls down again when it comes to the darker or saturated greens.
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: Mussi_Spectraflow on March 08, 2007, 01:55:32 am
Quote
Thanks for doing the camparision but unfortuantly the total volume has never been the problem. Yor graphs are showing the problem exactly as it is in that the Epson is beating the HP in primary red, primary blue and primary yellow. This is exactly where the problem lies.

The HP as expected wins on the brighter colours and pastels.

Your graph is illustarting the problem that has been found, the differences in the pirmariesd are clear but do not seem overlly significant but they are as the colours that they showing play a huge role and have a big knok on effect.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105417\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

So the problem is that the epson is beating the HP in the red, blue, and yellow hue axis. I guess you could say the problem with the epson is that the HP beats is in the green,cyan and magenta axis? The HP wins on the brighter colors, and looses on most of the lower L* values. What knock on effect are you seeing? You said that this is better suited for CMYK proofing, which would imply that you agree that color accuracy is not the problem. For photographers the output on RC media is first rate. I agree that the matte performance initally was not where it needed to be. Since the last two firmware tweaks I've found the results to be quite good. In no way however would I call the results un acceptable on a general level, or that the printer is a failure. I'm not going to argue if you find the result don't meet your needs, I just felt some of the ultra negative generalizations should be put in context.

Julian Mussi
www.spectraflow.com
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: Panascape on March 08, 2007, 02:05:04 am
Julian, I have never said the printer was a fauilure, I have though indicated that it fails to meet up to what was promissed and its price tag and currently for me it is not useable as a production machine.

I have never had a problem with colour accuracy. I have had a problem in that as you correctly state the HP loses on the lower L* values which has a knock on effect.

Although this problem will be the worst for fine art printers and photographers, I would worry about this in a repro environment as I have 3 litho jobs here that a client wanted prints of. The jobs have very dark maroon like red colours which is where the HP has a problem with but the Epson as we can see manages to cope with these colours.

I personally would not be happy yet putting a z3100 into either environment but do feel that the repro boys are likely to still have problems, but to a lesser extent.
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: BlasR on March 08, 2007, 07:11:20 am
I have the Z3100 44" epson 7600 and epson 4000pro with Image Print
so far I love my z3100 more then the other two especial in B&W.   I ask my other eyes (my wife) to look the colors and the tell me what photo she like the most (same photo print from each printer in color & B&W) she chose z3100 in she really love it in B&W from the z3100 , but because I'm not a professional,like almost all of you  I'm happy with my z3100. and I'm keep reading in waiting and see if Robert can resolved the problem with the red and the other colors.
In the end you only spend $4,500.00 after you get your rebate  $500 in media in $1000. cash

So far to me the printer is great

BlasR
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: Panascape on March 08, 2007, 07:23:21 am
As far as the z3100 and B&W goes, it gets my 2 thumbs up. If at least 50% of my work was B&W I would keep the z3100 just for this but unfortunatly most of my work is colour.
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: Christopher on March 08, 2007, 11:40:37 am
yeah and if you bought it earlier and you don't get any rebate it is 7500 EUR. Which are nearly 10000$ "autsch" that really hurts.
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: Panascape on March 08, 2007, 12:04:06 pm
Yes and then try that at an exchange rate of R9.6 to 1 EUR and an annual interest rate on the finance deal of 13%.
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: mcbroomf on March 09, 2007, 02:21:20 pm
HP sent me a new custom profile for HM FA Pearl.  It is supposed to appear under the custom set of profiles specifically for HM FAP.  

I will be upgrading the firmaware and installing the new profiles, including this one over the weekend to try as long as I can get the humidity high enough to prevent buckling.

I asked HP what they did with this profile to improve it, and if they had a problem with me sending it to anyone else but I've not received a reply, so if you would like a copy let me know.

Mike
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: Panascape on March 09, 2007, 02:50:06 pm
I am assuming that this is a media profile, but just wanted to be 100% sure?

Robert
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: Recked on March 09, 2007, 03:21:18 pm
Hello,

I have been watching this post with interest as I just recently leased a new 24 inch Z3100 and had great hopes after reading a number of very positive reviews etc. about it.

My thoughts are thus and are only my two cents, but I have to say that I have taught my children that when they make a mistake the best thing to do is admit to it first then see what needs to be done going forward not to make the same mistake a second time especially if it hurts or affects others around them.

I am obviously very naive in that I expect the same type of reaction when a large corporation royally screws (yes I know very, very naive) up as HP appears to have done with the Z3100. Why haven't they contacted the purchasers of this product and explained to them personally what they intend to do to make things right. It seems from this post that some have their ear, but we all deserve to be spoken to and given answers for what is a partially working product and an expensive one at that. I am not as well versed with regards to testing for color issues etc. as others seem to be here, but I know when something doesn't look right and things don't look right and need to be fixed.

I am considering just speaking with my attorney to see if there is some way to get out of my lease and return what is in my mind a defective product or lemon.

Anyway after last nights attempt to follow the install instructions for ICC profiles from the HP sight I had had my fill and decided to vent here.

I don't expect perfection, but for the price of this printer I had hoped/expected to get a functioning printer able to produce something close to reality.

regards


Quote
I am assuming that this is a media profile, but just wanted to be 100% sure?

Robert
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105695\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: Panascape on March 09, 2007, 03:51:02 pm
Quote
Anyway after last nights attempt to follow the install instructions for ICC profiles from the HP sight I had had my fill and decided to vent here.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105701\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I can undertand your frustration but I can assure you getting the stuff in beta from from HP can be even more frustrating especially when they forget to supply an installer or initially instructions on how to install it.
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: Recked on March 09, 2007, 03:56:21 pm
I am not trying to sound like the only one as I fully realize there are folks out there who have purchased this machine who depend on it and other printers for their living. I have a "day" job that assists in paying my photography bills like this printer, but again HP needs to step up for all those out there who have made this purchase and do the right thing. It really is the only sensible thing to do unless they wish to feel the backlash the next time an end user is looking for a new printer or computer workstation etc.

Again I know there are people out there much worse off then me, but I am a paying customer as well and want to be treated as such especially when there is a clear and documented issue with this machine.

I don't that we should be made to feel unreasonable to expect anything less.....

enjoy your weekend


Quote
I can undertand your frustration but I can assure you getting the stuff in beta from from HP can be even more frustrating especially when they forget to supply an installer or initially instructions on how to install it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105704\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: New firmware Z3100 available
Post by: mcbroomf on March 12, 2007, 10:53:56 am
Quote
I am assuming that this is a media profile, but just wanted to be 100% sure?

Robert
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105695\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Sorry for the delay in my answer, I was offline over the weekend.

Yes, this is a media profile (a .oms file).  It creates a new paper name in the printer for you to choose.  I loaded it over the weekend but had no opportunity to try it.

Doug, I tried sending it to you but got an email failure.  I'll try again later today.

Mike