Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: pss on February 21, 2007, 07:40:53 pm
-
i guess there is a new/old player...this (http://www.letsgodigital.org/en/12940/digital_slr_camera/) looks more serious then the ZD....has the sensor of the P30/hassD31....interesting..
-
I wonder how many megapixels it will be up to by the time it ships.
-
i guess there is a new/old player...this (http://www.letsgodigital.org/en/12940/digital_slr_camera/) looks more serious then the ZD....has the sensor of the P30/hassD31....interesting..
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=102219\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
And what exactly is not serious about the ZD?
I have seen you bashing this camera repeatedely in the past few weeks, but have never heard any concrete information justifying the criticism...
Those who own one are very happy about it, so why do you keep hammering on it?
Cheers,
Bernard
-
And what exactly is not serious about the ZD?
I have seen you bashing this camera repeatedely in the past few weeks, but have never heard any concrete information justifying the criticism...
Those who own one are very happy about it, so why do you keep hammering on it?
Cheers,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=102226\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
sorry bernard...i really don't mean to bash the ZD at all....i have repeatedly stated that the camera has a place in the market , and that for certain applications it is a good deal for the money....
a lot of people have unrealistic expectations when it comes down to it....they think that the ZD will give them the same quality as a 22mipx phase or leaf back, which it won't....
i reported on the ZD back coming to the states at a good price and i think(hope) it will mix up the market a bit....
when i wrote serious i meant this camera will be in a different priceclass as the ZD....i read another clip where the price was quoted as being in the same range as the hassH3D 31, makes sense, it has the same chip....so this is not competition for the ZD, but for the P30 and H3D31...both of which are a step up from the ZD (i think we both agree on that)....that is why i called it more serious....
in a way the ZD reminds me of the kodak 14n (which i owned and liked a lot)...with a little work the files really were amazing....the camera had it's limitations but the price was great.....
hope this explains my thinking a bit....
-
it says : "• Kodak-developed extra-large CCD image sensor with 31.6 total megapixels"
what extra large ccd could be?
-
I think "extra large" is a marketing jockey comparing apples & oranges - it's extra large compared to the dSLRs (ie K10D, etc). I'd expect a price closer to $18k (Mamiya AFD II body is ~$2400 + Phase P30 is $16,990 - $1,000 Mamiya Discount = $18,390). And if that sensor is not replaceable, then it's a throw-away body, so I'd knock off another $2k because of that. And if it's 12 or 14 bits like the ZD, then minus another $2k. $13,999 sounds about right.
-
i dont get it, doesnt anyone want a removable finder and a vertical grip anymore? it wouldnt cost much to add these things in the development scheme of things. its like theres a point and shoot design team working on it.
have any of the designers ever had to hold a camera vertical for 9 hours, or needed to shoot at ground level all day (those 90 degree adaptors are a joke). the changable finder and vertical grip was a good selling point years ago with film cameras, why do they think we dont want them now? its not like we are shooting differently.
im impressed by the 2.8 35mm, but why is it so differcult to make a faster std lens?
its a pity, its hard to get exicited about new cameras nowadays.
paul
-
Perhaps it is hype, but I notice that the 55mm DFA lens announced for the 645D is listed as usable with film 645 cameras, which implies a large image circle.
-
your right about the viewfinder.
the grip is not really my concern because I'm on tripod most of the time, but i got your point.
Like your work BTW
-
your right about the viewfinder.
the grip is not really my concern because I'm on tripod most of the time, but i got your point.
Like your work BTW
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=102253\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
i dont know if the vertical grip isnt going to happen, but it seems an easy thing to add , and sell- even a canon 20d has one, if you want it. im sure they are money for jam.
the mamiya afd dosnt even have the contacts to give it the possiblity for a grip. just seems dumb to me. that was a great selling point about the contax, and also works really well with a canon. they didnt even bother putting on a vertical button on the zd.
paul
-
sorry bernard...i really don't mean to bash the ZD at all....i have repeatedly stated that the camera has a place in the market , and that for certain applications it is a good deal for the money....
a lot of people have unrealistic expectations when it comes down to it....they think that the ZD will give them the same quality as a 22mipx phase or leaf back, which it won't....
i reported on the ZD back coming to the states at a good price and i think(hope) it will mix up the market a bit....
when i wrote serious i meant this camera will be in a different priceclass as the ZD....i read another clip where the price was quoted as being in the same range as the hassH3D 31, makes sense, it has the same chip....so this is not competition for the ZD, but for the P30 and H3D31...both of which are a step up from the ZD (i think we both agree on that)....that is why i called it more serious....
in a way the ZD reminds me of the kodak 14n (which i owned and liked a lot)...with a little work the files really were amazing....the camera had it's limitations but the price was great.....
hope this explains my thinking a bit....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=102236\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yep, that's clear thanks. Sorry about the confusion.
Regards,
Bernard
-
I'm 99.95% sure that 35/2.8 is for the k10D, not the 645D. The "DA" lenses are akin to Nikon's DX and Canon's EF-S lenses.
-
In regards to the grip and viewfinder, if I were holding a ZD or 645D 9 hours a day, I'm sure my opinions would be radically different. To me the ZD and 645D are a "bridge" product - like a psuedo medium format cameras in a dSLR format. It's smaller, easier to pack while on vacation, etc. In this regard I think Mamiya did an excellent job with the ZD. And if Pentax and Mamiya are targetting the enthusiasts, semi-pro's, etc., then price is key. When Pentax pulled the 18 MP version, and they the Hoya announcement... I thought the 645D was dead. So, I'm quite happy to see it's still happening. The more choices, the better.
-
In regards to the grip and viewfinder, if I were holding a ZD or 645D 9 hours a day, I'm sure my opinions would be radically different. To me the ZD and 645D are a "bridge" product - like a psuedo medium format cameras in a dSLR format. It's smaller, easier to pack while on vacation, etc. In this regard I think Mamiya did an excellent job with the ZD. And if Pentax and Mamiya are targetting the enthusiasts, semi-pro's, etc., then price is key. When Pentax pulled the 18 MP version, and they the Hoya announcement... I thought the 645D was dead. So, I'm quite happy to see it's still happening. The more choices, the better.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=102297\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
hi, what was the hoya anouncement?
what seems nice about the pentax, it looks really light.
paul
-
Here's the link for the Hoya / Pentax for "management integration" -
DPreview Announcement (http://www.dpreview.com/news/0612/06122101pentaxhoyamerge.asp)
-
it says : "• Kodak-developed extra-large CCD image sensor with 31.6 total megapixels"
what extra large ccd could be?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=102238\")
The [a href=\"http://www.kodak.com/US/en/dpq/site/SENSORS/name/KAF-31600_product]KAF-31600[/url] 55mm diagonal, 33x44mm. That is the same size as the 18MP sensor that Pentax originally planned to use, and the same sensor as in the H3D-31, but I guess at under half the price; maybe the magic $9,999.99.
I hope they drop "645" from the product naming.
-
The KAF-31600 (http://www.kodak.com/US/en/dpq/site/SENSORS/name/KAF-31600_product) 55mm diagonal, 33x44mm. That is the same size as the 18MP sensor that Pentax originally planned to use, and the same sensor as in the H3D-31, but I guess at under half the price; maybe the magic $9,999.99.
I hope they drop "645" from the product naming.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=102408\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
ok, so just large for MF. No extra at all. Marketing....
doesn't really matter, if it's a FF
-
doesn't really matter, if it's a FF
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=102411\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
What do you mean by "FF" here?
If you mean Full Frame type CCD, then it is, as are all "medium format" sensors.
If you mean 24x36mm, clearly it is not: it is 70% larger than that.
If you mean "the same size as some obsolescent film format", then no again.
-
$13,999 sounds about right.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=102245\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I expect this to cost several thousand less than the Mamiya ZD, wich costs less than that, because
1) The sensor is smaller. (Hasselblad charges several thousand less for the H3D-31 with the same chip as this Pentax than it does for the H3D-22 with the same chip as the Mamiya ZD: sensor size trumps pixel count for cost, it seems.)
2) It's a Pentax, and Pentax has always been the "low price leader" in medium format.
My guess: $9,999.99.
-
What do you mean by "FF" here?
If you mean Full Frame type CCD, then it is, as are all "medium format" sensors.
If you mean 24x36mm, clearly it is not: it is 70% larger than that.
If you mean "the same size as some obsolescent film format", then no again.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=102446\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
maybe we should all go the hasselblad way and call this one FF 44......just like their H3D39 is FF48....makes things sooooo much easier:)
-
I expect this to cost several thousand less than the Mamiya ZD, wich costs less than that, because
1) The sensor is smaller. (Hasselblad charges several thousand less for the H3D-31 with the same chip as this Pentax than it does for the H3D-22 with the same chip as the Mamiya ZD: sensor size trumps pixel count for cost, it seems.)
2) It's a Pentax, and Pentax has always been the "low price leader" in medium format.
My guess: $9,999.99.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=102449\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
it depends on the pixel depth...with canon's announcement of the 1DmkIII with 14bit, i don't see how this camera could be anything less then 16bit, which would put it squarely at the phase P30 and the hass31...both f which are more in the 25000 (back, lens, body) range...so if pentax can do this at 15000, it would really shake things up...but of course only if they can control what comes out of the camera...software, conversion....all of which is not that easy and this is the first pentax.....we will see...
-
maybe we should all go the hasselblad way and call this one FF 44......just like their H3D39 is FF48....makes things sooooo much easier:)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=102451\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
exactly the FF44
-
it depends on the pixel depth...with canon's announcement of the 1DmkIII with 14bit, i don't see how this camera could be anything less then 16bit ...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=102453\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
In creasing bit depth is a matter of spending a few dollars more on the A/D convertor and should have no significant effect on retail price. (A new Sony 1/1.8" CMOS sensor has several thousand 12-bit A/D converters on chip, just to show you how cheap A/D is.) A/D cost is totally overwhelmed by sensor cost, and Hasselblad has already shown up that this sensor is "cheap" as MF sensors go.
Also, with no sensor having a dynamic range of more than about 12 stops, I am already dubious about the IQ advantages of 14 bits over 12, and anything beyond 14 bits adds absolutely nothing useful. At best, 16-bit D/A is used because the output will occupy two bytes anyway.
-
maybe we should all go the hasselblad way and call this one FF 44......just like their H3D39 is FF48....makes things sooooo much easier:)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=102451\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
In medium format, 66 and 67 refer to roughly 6x6cm and 6x7cm, so how about rounding 44mm to 4cm and 33mm to 3cm, giving ...
Pentax 43 format.
Oh, that might be confusing.
-
It's easy to think it's just a matter of bits, but what if I put the fastest Intel Dual Core Duo in your PC but bottleneck it with a minimal cache, slow the cache MHz, slower memory (or just too little), weak video card, 5400 RPM HD's, etc.
Adding bit depth goes a bit further than just an A/D component. There has to be a pipe that can move that data quickly enough off the sensor (in this case the Canon has 8 channels), the sensor reset and prepared for the next image capture. As the data comes off the sensor is has to be prepped for conversion (various stages of amplificaion and filtering). Once converted, the data has to be processed (in camera tone curve, noise reduction, WB, etc) and converted into the RAW file (larger files means more CPU power). Finally, the image is moved to the bufffer and then stored to CF.
The CPUs have to run cool (heat is a bad thing), nor can the CPUs drain too much battery power. The quality of the A/D is very important too. More data means higher grade components too because the CPUs & VLSI engines have to run at higher MHz.
I doubt 14-bits will hurt Canon's image quality The improvement may not be radical, but it should help. I looked at the 1D3 samples and they look so-so; I really think my 1Ds2 matches or exceeds the image quality. The 1Ds2 has far greater resolution - those 10 MP files felt downright puny!
-
In medium format, 66 and 67 refer to roughly 6x6cm and 6x7cm, so how about rounding 44mm to 4cm and 33mm to 3cm, giving ...
Pentax 43 format.
Oh, that might be confusing.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=102461\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The following is worth remembering for all of those trying to get their heads around the definition of FF. 6x6 film cameras often only used a 5.65 x 5.65 frame, and yes 6 x 7 was 5.65 x 6.9 ish.....
So FF has always been a bit iffy. I wish they would just always refer to the real chip size in mm as the frame size. FF is meaningless in this "new" world and we are all bright enough to know how to translate this chip size.
-
Last time I spoke with Pentax reps in Tokyo, they were targetting roughly the same price point as the ZD.
There is no way they can charge more than 10.000 US$ for this camera considering the target crowd. It would be a commercial suicide.
I don't see Pentax trying to move to a different market segment, their strategy is IMHO to migrate all the landscape shooters in Japan who are still with film. The 645 has a cult following over here, much more so than in the EU/US from what I could see.
Regards,
Bernard
-
ok, so just large for MF. No extra at all. Marketing....
doesn't really matter, if it's a FF
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=102411\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well it's not large for MF, and it's not FF
-
Well it's not large for MF, and it's not FF
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=102555\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I thought meant "joke"
my bad.
-
Bernard - at $9k-$10k, that would be excellent. I spoke with the Mamiya US Service Manager earlier this morning (sent the AFD2 in to have its prism clean and the firmware updated) and he confirmed the ZD back for the US too. He said the announcement should be in March; I'm guessing PMA or the Tokyo show you mentioned earlier.
Assuming the back would be at $8000-$9000 (as PSS - Paul - said) and the Pentax 645D at $9,999 USD, then we'd have excellent options under $10k. Another MAC representative said a new ZD for the US too - he said $10-$13k. And a new 1Ds3 this fall at 22 MP & 14 bits for under $8k (seems likely after the 1D3 announcement). Fall 2007 could be very interesting with all these choices.
At 1/2 the price I can accept some of the limitations, and there are other advantages such as smaller size, integrated batteries, etc. Pro's & con's on both sides. I think the most interesting part will be the sales volume. If Pentax & Mamiya solutions sell as well as I think they will, this may entice Phase One and others to come up with some new mid-level backs aimed at enthusiasts, semi-pro's, etc.
-
i wonder if the new pentax will work properly with the old lenses? this leaf shutter one is interesting-
http://tinyurl.com/2x2kxg (http://tinyurl.com/2x2kxg)
paul
-
i guess there is a new/old player...this (http://www.letsgodigital.org/en/12940/digital_slr_camera/) looks more serious then the ZD....has the sensor of the P30/hassD31....interesting..
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=102219\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I was sort of hopeing for a Pentax MF as I have a few lenses, then when I think what a basket case my 67II has been and how difficult it has been getting simple spare parts, I'm not shure about spending money on more Pentax gear.
I'm hopeing I don't do something sillly at Focus next week regarding the Hasselblad H3 deal they have on offer! It's mighty tempting.
Kevin.
-
I'm 99.95% sure that 35/2.8 is for the k10D, not the 645D. The "DA" lenses are akin to Nikon's DX and Canon's EF-S lenses.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=102294\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
sorry, you are right, its for the small pentax.
paul
-
Last time I spoke with Pentax reps in Tokyo, they were targetting roughly the same price point as the ZD.
There is no way they can charge more than 10.000 US$ for this camera considering the target crowd. It would be a commercial suicide.
I don't see Pentax trying to move to a different market segment, their strategy is IMHO to migrate all the landscape shooters in Japan who are still with film. The 645 has a cult following over here, much more so than in the EU/US from what I could see.
Regards,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=102549\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
was that when this camera was supposed to have the 18mpix chip? 10000 would be less then half of what everyone else charges for this chip....if it is 16bit....
either way it is great to see more movement in the digital"MF" market..the more the better...
about the whole FF thing...when MF was still all film, there was no discussion about it...nobody called 645 less FF or 6x8 more FF....this really only came up when cameras/lenses built for one film size where used with Dbacks that did not cover the whole area....so in that regard: call is what it is 44 or 48....but i guess phase names their backs by the pixel amount, leaf by the diagonal....makes sense....the top leaf "only" has 33 mpix which would put it square against the P30 (which really has 32mpix) but then again the P45 only has 39....confusing....
-
As far as pricing goes, I either read or was told by the Pentax rep that the 645 Digital was targeted to be less than the Canon 1Ds Mk II but I think that may have been with the original 18 megapixel chip and not the new 31.6 megapixel design. I would be thrilled with $7,000 but I think around $10,000 is much more likely as has already been said.
Bryan
-
Any camera that claims to be FF 645 will need a sensor size of 56 x 41.5mm, I can't see how a 48 x 36mm can be call FF. That camera will have a "crop factor" of 1,34
-
And if you go with a sensor of "only" 44 x 33 mm, then you a have a crop factor of 1,6
-
was that when this camera was supposed to have the 18mpix chip? 10000 would be less then half of what everyone else charges for this chip....if it is 16bit....
either way it is great to see more movement in the digital"MF" market..the more the better...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=102652\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yep, at the time they were shooting for a 18 MP offering indeed.
It is true that many people would probably be willing to pay more for 31 MP, but then again the 645 digital will probably be released after the Canon/Nikon 22/24MP rumoured bodies, it will have to offer more to even have a chance to compete.
I keep thinking that 10,000 US$ is probably still the target price, and my guess is that they are already very uncomfortable with it.
Regards,
Bernard
-
As far as pricing goes, I either read or was told by the Pentax rep that the 645 Digital was targeted to be less than the Canon 1Ds Mk II but I think that may have been with the original 18 megapixel chip and not the new 31.6 megapixel design. I would be thrilled with $7,000 but I think around $10,000 is much more likely as has already been said.
Bryan
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=102918\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
i think you guys are dreaming....the ZD (body) is around 12000 with a 22mpix 12bit (if larger) chip....anything under 15000 would be very good for the pentax....
we will see...
-
And if you go with a sensor of "only" 44 x 33 mm, then you a have a crop factor of 1,6
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=102950\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Compared to 56x41.5mm, 44x33mm is smaller by a factor of 56/44 = 1.27 (the factors are always ratios of lengths, not areas). So a bit less that the crop factor of the 1DMkIII, except that Pentax is making lenses specifically for this new format startig with a 55mm standard lens, avoiding the crop with those lenses at least.
And 49x37mm as in the H3D-39 is a factor of 1.14x smaller than 645 film format.
-
i think you guys are dreaming....the ZD (body) is around 12000 with a 22mpix 12bit (if larger) chip....anything under 15000 would be very good for the pentax....
we will see...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=102977\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
As I mention several times above, costs are related to sensor size more than to pixel count (10MP digicam sensors cost less than 6MP DSLR sensors!), so the 33x44 sensor used by Pentax should allow the price to be less than the ZD with its larger 36x48 sensor.
-
Bernard, I agree that sensor size plays into the price, but $9,999 is a stretch for me. A $9,999 price would be a huge a psychological coup on Pentax's part. Digital medium format & 31 MP for under $10k would make for a great marketing splash. Several other factors influencing 645D price are:
1) When will it be released? If it turns out to be late Fall or early Winter, then 31 MP won't be as expensive then as it is today.
2) How many chips is Pentax buying? A production run of 1,000 vs 25,000 will have a different cost base too.
3) What's coming from Phase, Aptus, etc.? Do they have cheaper backs in the works or more MP? Pentax certainly knows what Dalsa & Kodak sensors are planned, so they can make some good guesses about their competition.
Canon lowered the price on the 1D3 to $3999, so if the 1Ds3 is 22 MP, 14-bits, etc., etc., and around $7299 (instead of the usual $8k when first announced), then that makes it harder for Pentax and Mamiya. I think the 1Ds2/1Ds3 is a direct competitor to the all-in-one ZD and 645D.
Two people at MAC Group have said the ZD back and a US ZD are coming - they better get here fast before Canon redefines prices. At 31 MP the 645D is somewhat above the turbelence, but no wholly immune.
-
As I mention several times above, costs are related to sensor size more than to pixel count (10MP digicam sensors cost less than 6MP DSLR sensors!), so the 33x44 sensor used by Pentax should allow the price to be less than the ZD with its larger 36x48 sensor.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=103028\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
i know that size plays a major role...but there is no way that pentax will be allowed to sell the SAME chip (30+mpix, 16bit) with a camera attached for half of what phase and hass charge for their backs based on that same chip....kodak builds that chip and sells it t phase and hass and now pentax....you know they have a say in how much the final product is...they have to protect their customer...and themselves...they own leaf....
but there is much more to DMF then just the chip anyway...getting the information off the chip is not that easy.....phase, imacon and kodak all had the same chips, all had experience (and probably deeper pockets then pentax when it comes to MF development) and it took imacon a couple of years to catch up with phase (and IMO they still haven't) and kodak dropped out completely.....so for pentax to come along and make a camera is great for the market, but we will see how they can work the rest of the hardware (considerable) and the software (seems even harder).....
we have seen with the ZD how hard it is to enter the market....
-
I wouldn't say it is/was hard for Mamiya to enter the digital market, rather, MAC Group has stifled Mamiya in the US market. This is a chicken & egg scenario. If Mamiya had more revenue coming in from the ZD, then there would be more money to fund development, etc. The ZD images look fine, it's not like they are disaster or something horrible. A Phase P25 is $20k new, an Aptus 22 is $24k new - I think the US market could understand why a $12k MF dSLR doesn't match point for point for with other offerings costing 2x as much.
Even if Mamiya lost money on the back (or ZD body), with cross marketing they could offset the loss with lens & accessory sales. Mamiya could pump up the perceived value with a "Buy a back and great a free lens of your choice (from a list of course)" marketing campaign. Get some new lenses out the door which are "optimized for digital". And could you imagine what would happen if Mamiya pulled off a 1/250 or 1/500 flash sync in a AFDIII? Nobody has 35mm dSLR type AF, so a new 7, 9 or 11 pt. AF system would generate some body sales too.
There are so, so many ways for Mamiya to garner some market share and make this work. Changing lens coatings & improving AF are not huge investment dollars, but gear-heads go nuts for these things. Dub it "medium format for the real world", price it competitively and steal market share. In terms of US sales, I assign the blame to MAC Group - not Mamiya. Just my $.02... and I'll put away the soap box now.
-
i know that size plays a major role...but there is no way that pentax will be allowed to sell the SAME chip (30+mpix, 16bit) with a camera attached for half of what phase and hass charge for their backs based on that same chip....kodak builds that chip and sells it t phase and hass and now pentax....you know they have a say in how much the final product is...they have to protect their customer...and themselves...they own leaf....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=103053\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You might be correct, I am not aware of Kodak's business practises, but it would seem that at least Dalsa works differently since the ZD is about 1/3 the price of the equivalent Leaf in Japan... with the same sensor (I know that there are some small differences).
I am personnally not sure that Kodak would refuse to sell thousands of additional sensors to Pentax... can they really afford to?
Companies like Phase and Leaf have always stated that part of the price of their products is in the support structure. In other words, they claim that you pay for a full package and not just the hardware + software.
Pentax and Mamiya work with a different business model (basically sell and forget), will be able to make economies of scale, and are able (at least for Pentax) to re-use much of the IP already invested in APS DSLRs. Besides, selling digital MF is also a means for them to make money with lenses. Considering their culture, I believe that being able to maintain their activity in the lens business are some value for them.
All in all, I wouldn't be surprised at all if they were able to sell at least twice cheaper than Leaf/Phase for a product based on the same sensor.
If things happen as I anticipate, we will then find out if the claims of Phase and Leaf in terms of what business model is suitable are real, or just a way to preserve larger margins...
One thing is sure, many of the photographer who did invest big money in Phase/Leaf products, but don't need/tap enough into the whole support structure put in place for them for big $ might not be super happy about these developments.
I feel that we are kind of back to the Nikon D1 days when Nikon proposed at 1/3 of the price something as good as the top Kodak DSLRs, aren't we?
Regards,
Bernard
-
You might be correct, I am not aware of Kodak's business practises, but it would seem that at least Dalsa works differently since the ZD is about 1/3 the price of the equivalent Leaf in Japan... with the same sensor (I know that there are some small differences).
I am personnally not sure that Kodak would refuse to sell thousands of additional sensors to Pentax... can they really afford to?
Companies like Phase and Leaf have always stated that part of the price of their products is in the support structure. In other words, they claim that you pay for a full package and not just the hardware + software.
Pentax and Mamiya work with a different business model (basically sell and forget), will be able to make economies of scale, and are able (at least for Pentax) to re-use much of the IP already invested in APS DSLRs. Besides, selling digital MF is also a means for them to make money with lenses. Considering their culture, I believe that being able to maintain their activity in the lens business are some value for them.
All in all, I wouldn't be surprised at all if they were able to sell at least twice cheaper than Leaf/Phase for a product based on the same sensor.
If things happen as I anticipate, we will then find out if the claims of Phase and Leaf in terms of what business model is suitable are real, or just a way to preserve larger margins...
One thing is sure, many of the photographer who did invest big money in Phase/Leaf products, but don't need/tap enough into the whole support structure put in place for them for big $ might not be super happy about these developments.
I feel that we are kind of back to the Nikon D1 days when Nikon proposed at 1/3 of the price something as good as the top Kodak DSLRs, aren't we?
Regards,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=103091\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
you are right! if pentax can sell thousands of this camera, they can bring the price down and the price would have to be WAY down to sell thousands.....support is great, but if the pentax is 1/2 the price, just get 2 and always have a back-up!
don't forget that canon thought about dropping the price for the 1Ds to about 5000 when the 14n came out....they waited and saw that they did not have to.....no competition....
either way let's see if this camera will actually make it to the market....they announced one before wit 18mpix that never made it.....
and the ongoing ZD saga shows how hard it is.....
-
don't forget that canon thought about dropping the price for the 1Ds to about 5000 when the 14n came out....they waited and saw that they did not have to.....no competition....
either way let's see if this camera will actually make it to the market....they announced one before wit 18mpix that never made it.....
and the ongoing ZD saga shows how hard it is.....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=103095\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yep, let's see what happens. All this is indeed pure speculation at this stage.
Cheers,
Bernard
-
Yep, let's see what happens. All this is indeed pure speculation at this stage.
Cheers,
Bernard
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=103121\")
On 10th of may this was published on a German website:
[a href=\"http://www.photoscala.de/node/3192]http://www.photoscala.de/node/3192[/url]
It says they stopped the development of the Pentax 645 digital to become more profitable to resist the Hoya merger.
Mid june I called a poor technician in Hamburg/Germany to tell him how disappointed I was about that after all my investments in Pentax equipment. His information: there are tests made in Japan with the 645 digital at the actual state of development. If the prototypes are seen as good, the camera will go into production. If they don`t meet expectations, any further development will be stopped and the project will be dropped.
I just hope the tests turn out good.
-
On 10th of may this was published on a German website:
http://www.photoscala.de/node/3192 (http://www.photoscala.de/node/3192)
It says they stopped the development of the Pentax 645 digital to become more profitable to resist the Hoya merger.
Mid june I called a poor technician in Hamburg/Germany to tell him how disappointed I was about that after all my investments in Pentax equipment. His information: there are tests made in Japan with the 645 digital at the actual state of development. If the prototypes are seen as good, the camera will go into production. If they don`t meet expectations, any further development will be stopped and the project will be dropped.
I just hope the tests turn out good.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128512\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks for posting this. I was wondering whether the 645 project might survive
the Hoya takeover. I'm glad to hear that there's at least a chance of this.
I've held onto my Pentax 645 gear hoping for a 645D. While I also have a
Contax 645, I much prefer the Pentax for nature work because of its small
size and weight.
Tony
-
Thanks for posting this. I was wondering whether the 645 project might survive
the Hoya takeover. I'm glad to hear that there's at least a chance of this.
I've held onto my Pentax 645 gear hoping for a 645D. While I also have a
Contax 645, I much prefer the Pentax for nature work because of its small
size and weight.
Tony
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128536\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I´d like to see (and probably buy!) a Pentax 645D, too, because I could use my existing lenses.
But as we see it from the Mamiya ZD and ZD back, our expectations shoulnd´t be too high. Even if the camera might share the sensor of the H3D31 and P30, the quality of this first attempt will not be the same. Companies have to make their experiences and grow with each new generation of camera.
Wide angle capabilities of the system would be very limited with a 35mm on a 33x44mm sensor. There would be an immediate need for at least a 28mm.
I would also hope, I could use my two leaf shutter lenses (75mm and 135mm).