Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: samuel_js on February 15, 2007, 05:35:45 pm
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Hi all,
I talked to my Sinar dealer here in Sweden today. We've been in contact for a couple of weeks.
I explained my situation. I'm using a Hasselblad H1 and a Rollei 6008 Professional scanning film with an Imacon. I sold my 1Ds because I thing the quality is just not comparable to medium format (just my opinion and what my eyes see ). My work is just with film now. So I'm trying to figure out the best way make the transition. I don't work as a full time professional like o lot of you so for me there's no rush into it. I'm starting my own bussiness and I'm just seeing the possibilities. I must say that their support has been excellent. They've treated me with great respect, knowing me as a very serious amateur, which I think is a very positive thing ...
In my way into digital medium format the options fot me could be:
- Stay as I am now, wait until the Hy6 comes out and buy it just with the film back until I know if I like the design etc.. Then buy the DB.
- Buy a Rollei 6008AF and trade in H1 and 6008 and then get the Hy6. They don't now the price of the hy6 alone, so they don't know how much I need to pay for the 6008AF. Of course I can't pay for the 6008AF and then upgrade to an UNKNOWN price camera.
- Buy a Emotion 22 that will also work perfectly with my H1 (he could't tell me the price alone at that moment), the wait until the Hy6 comes and trade in my H1 and my Rollei.
Facts:
- The HY6 with DB will be competing with Hasselblad HD. Also, in the same price category.
- The HY6 will be a closed system, just working with their own backs. The software in the HY6 is designed by Sinar so they won't work with other DB.
The will call me next week to talk about prices so we'll see, but at this moment they don't seem to have a marketing plan for the HY6. I wanted to know the best way into the HY6 and I was recommended to buy a emotion 22 and wait!!
Well. I hope this will be useful for someone out there.
Thank's
BR
Samuel
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Regarding the eMotion Sinar backs:
There are upgrades on the way!
The eMotion 54 LV and the new eMotion 75 LV.
What's new? These 2 new eMotion backs will first have Live Video capability, but not only. They are fitted with new internal electronic hardware improving quality and high ISO.
(Quoted from thsinar)
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Regarding the eMotion Sinar backs:
There are upgrades on the way!
The eMotion 54 LV and the new eMotion 75 LV.
What's new? These 2 new eMotion backs will first have Live Video capability, but not only. They are fitted with new internal electronic hardware improving quality and high ISO.
(Quoted from thsinar)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101126\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thank's for the info. That's good to know. They didn't say anything about that...
*I forgot to write about my option nr.4: Just choose Hasselblad instead.
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- The HY6 will be a closed system, just working with their own backs. The software in the HY6 is designed by Sinar so they won't work with other DB.
I still haven't seen an official statement to back this up. Until now, the variants have been described as 'rebadged' which implies that they are functionally identical, in hardware terms at least. Perhaps this refers to firmware, which could be changed in any case?
Imagine that you have a Sinar Hy6 or Leaf AFi and back, and the camera fails on location. It would be comforting to know that any rental camera from either Sinar or Leaf could be added to the system. That increases your safety net, so it's better for the system as a whole.
If this is true then the functionality of the Rollei variant is also a mystery. Which digital back will this variant take? This variant is for the Japan, China and Russia market, as per thsinar's earlier thread: http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/lofive...php/t14503.html (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/lofiversion/index.php/t14503.html)
Finally, there have been official statements describing the Hy6 as an 'open' system, which contradicts this rumour of product-tying.
In short, I will wait for an official statement.
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I still haven't seen an official statement to back this up. Until now, the variants have been described as 'rebadged' which implies that they are functionally identical, in hardware terms at least. Perhaps this refers to firmware, which could be changed in any case?
Imagine that you have a Sinar Hy6 or Leaf AFi and back, and the camera fails on location. It would be comforting to know that any rental camera from either Sinar or Leaf could be added to the system. That increases your safety net, so it's better for the system as a whole.
If this is true then the functionality of the Rollei variant is also a mystery. Which digital back will this variant take? This variant is for the Japan, China and Russia market, as per thsinar's earlier thread: http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/lofive...php/t14503.html (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/lofiversion/index.php/t14503.html)
Finally, there have been official statements describing the Hy6 as an 'open' system, which contradicts this rumour of product-tying.
In short, I will wait for an official statement.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101160\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes, I agree with you Graham. I find everything very confusing. I'm very tempted by this new HY6, but the dealers doesn't seem to know exactly what buying one implies.
I've heard that it would be an open system. But then differrent people and dealers says that it will be a closed one. I supose they havent't decided it yet.
Then thet said price will be side by side with Hasselblad, so I supose they are trying to close Phase One. From that point of view, I understand the system will be closed.
Samuel
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There are upgrades on the way!
The eMotion 54 LV and the new eMotion 75 LV
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101126\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Is there an upgrade path from my E22 - my main interest will be better ISO
Do you think I could send it back to the factory for upgrade
SMM
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Is there an upgrade path from my E22 - my main interest will be better ISO
Do you think I could send it back to the factory for upgrade
SMM
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101184\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
hi Sam,
yes, it will be possible to upgrade by sending the back to the factory. Prices will be communicated and available through your Sinar distributor in about a month.
Best regards,
Thierry
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I still haven't seen an official statement to back this up. Until now, the variants have been described as 'rebadged' which implies that they are functionally identical, in hardware terms at least. Perhaps this refers to firmware, which could be changed in any case?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101160\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
As said and explained already in earlier posts: the Sinar Hy6 and the AFi will both accept Sinarbacks and Leaf backs. We are not planing, neither now nor in the future to have adapters for any other existing digital back.
As for prices and other commercial issues: these will be communicated through our official distributors very shortly.
Thierry
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Thierry,
Please email me some screenshots of eXposure in action, so that I may seriously consider acquiring Sinar digital backs.
Billy
bjim at mac dot com
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We are not planing, neither now nor in the future to have adapters for any other existing digital back.
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101192\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
we know..that does not mean that 5 other companies make those adapters...
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we know..that does not mean that 5 other companies make those adapters...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101212\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes, but if Sinar do not provide the camera software code to those companies, the backs won't work.
It's the same as Hasselblad: Everybody could make an adapter to use an Emotion with a HD3 but the camera must recognize the back, and that's software.
Don't you think?
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Yes, but if Sinar do not provide the camera software code to those companies, the backs won't work.
It's the same as Hasselblad: Everybody could make an adapter to use an Emotion with a HD3 but the camera must recognize the back, and that's software.
Don't you think?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101245\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
i am not a programmer, but i think you are overestimating how sophisticated the connections are....as long as the camera triggers the back, all is good and that is a very simple connection....as far as transfer of exif data and such....if someone really looks into it, it can't be too hard to figure it out...
for me the only reason the back should communicate with the camera is to fire it without an extra cable (this is no problem as long as the camera provides connectors (like the RZIID)) and it is nice to change the iso on the back or body and the other knows about it....
as far as exif data being transferred: the Hy6 will work with 30 year old lenses...don't expect to get the f-stop or focal length with your file....
as far as hasselblad goes: is there a reason why the emotion (or leaf or phase) backs with the H mount won't work on the H3? is it a different mount? i am not sure about this, but as far as i know, they do work, you just don't get the advantages of the H3 compared to the H1 or H2 (lens correction, battery powers camera and back,...)....so there is no reason to buy a H3 unless you buy a hass back with it....
my understanding is that the H3 behaves like a H2 if you put a different brand back on it....maybe i am wrong?
to put it in other words: if i bought an H3 (back and body) i can't use that back on my old H2 (with limited functionality)? that would make it worse then i thought it was!!!!!
either way this will not be the case with the Hy6...if you buy a Hy6 today, you get a 6008 with emotion and when the Hy6 actually ships, you can choose to keep the 6008 as a back-up (with a nice discount)...which implies that the back will work on both cameras (with adapters and probably some limited communications with the 6008)....
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I don't care so much whether I can use another back on the Hy6/Afi but whether I can use the Hy6/Afi back on LF cameras or other specific equipment.
I would be very happy with a Hy6/AFi to V-Mount adapter to be able to use the back on my other machines.
I don't care using a sync cord, I use one right now on most machines as well. I don't care about anything but taking the image and have left one sync to fire a strobe or commander.
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I would be very happy with a Hy6/AFi to V-Mount adapter to be able to use the back on my other machines. That would make a decision a lot easier.
That is not likely with the Leaf and their one-mount system, but it is certain to be the case with the Sinarback. The adaptable back is one of the great features of the eMotion series. When the Hy6 is released, Sinar will also release the Hy6 adapter for the emotion backs but of course the DB will continue to work on your Hass, Mamiya, Contax, Rollei, etc.
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I don't care so much whether I can use another back on the Hy6/Afi but whether I can use the Hy6/Afi back on LF cameras or other specific equipment.
I would be very happy with a Hy6/AFi to V-Mount adapter to be able to use the back on my other machines.
I don't care using a sync cord, I use one right now on most machines as well. I don't care about anything but taking the image and have left one sync to fire a strobe or commander.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101258\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
i don't think it will work that way....the Afi will be a closed system...it will have its own mount (as all leaf and phase backs do)....
the sinar backs don't have specific mounts, they use adapters....so all you have to do is get the adapter you want....
i wonder if the sinar Hy6 will ship with a special mount (without adapter)....that would make that a closed camera as well....
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The Leaf AFi backs will work on LF cameras and possibly on RZ as well, just like the current AFD/ H/ V/ Ctx backs.
Yair
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i am not a programmer, but i think you are overestimating how sophisticated the connections are....as long as the camera triggers the back, all is good and that is a very simple connection....as far as transfer of exif data and such....if someone really looks into it, it can't be too hard to figure it out...
for me the only reason the back should communicate with the camera is to fire it without an extra cable (this is no problem as long as the camera provides connectors (like the RZIID)) and it is nice to change the iso on the back or body and the other knows about it....
as far as exif data being transferred: the Hy6 will work with 30 year old lenses...don't expect to get the f-stop or focal length with your file....
as far as hasselblad goes: is there a reason why the emotion (or leaf or phase) backs with the H mount won't work on the H3? is it a different mount? i am not sure about this, but as far as i know, they do work, you just don't get the advantages of the H3 compared to the H1 or H2 (lens correction, battery powers camera and back,...)....so there is no reason to buy a H3 unless you buy a hass back with it....
my understanding is that the H3 behaves like a H2 if you put a different brand back on it....maybe i am wrong?
to put it in other words: if i bought an H3 (back and body) i can't use that back on my old H2 (with limited functionality)? that would make it worse then i thought it was!!!!!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101249\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Not quite PSS!
I think you are under the impression that there is an H3 camera. There isn't!
There is an H2 but the H3 only exists in the H3D form - sold as an integrated unit. I have an H2D which is a predecessor to this.
You cannot put any other back on the the H3D... if you took the digital back off that is.
If you want to use Phase, Leaf etc then you would simply buy an H2 - losing the benefits of the H3D platform etc etc... similar to what you said above.
Jo S. x
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Not quite PSS!
I think you are under the impression that there is an H3 camera. There isn't!
There is an H2 but the H3 only exists in the H3D form - sold as an integrated unit. I have an H2D which is a predecessor to this.
You cannot put any other back on the the H3D... if you took the digital back off that is.
If you want to use Phase, Leaf etc then you would simply buy an H2 - losing the benefits of the H3D platform etc etc... similar to what you said above.
Jo S. x
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101406\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
so if i have complete H2 system (back-up body, etc...) and i want to upgrade to a H3D, i have to get rid of all my H2s? and i can't get a back-up body? wow....i am speechless....
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so if i have complete H2 system (back-up body, etc...) and i want to upgrade to a H3D, i have to get rid of all my H2s? and i can't get a back-up body? wow....i am speechless....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101414\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Meeeow! Saucer of milk, table 9!
There has been some discussion about this on the Flexframe user group (Hasselblad and Imacon) and it looks like backup bodies will be availble to owners of H3D cameras.
All your H2's???
I think most of us probably only stretch to one medium format body, two max? Plus your dealer would be a hard man if he didn't accomodate those bodies in a new deal.
...Or is that what Phase One dealers are like.
Joking... Joking....!!!
Jo S x
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Meeeow! Saucer of milk, table 9!
There has been some discussion about this on the Flexframe user group (Hasselblad and Imacon) and it looks like backup bodies will be availble to owners of H3D cameras.
All your H2's???
I think most of us probably only stretch to one medium format body, two max? Plus your dealer would be a hard man if he didn't accomodate those bodies in a new deal.
...Or is that what Phase One dealers are like.
Joking... Joking....!!!
Jo S x
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101417\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
with hasselblads record one would think you need at least 3 bodies (one will be at the shop at all times).....
but anyway.....now i know why rental houses will simply not pick up the H3D....
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with hasselblads record one would think you need at least 3 bodies (one will be at the shop at all times).....
but anyway.....now i know why rental houses will simply not pick up the H3D....
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=101418\")
Yawn....
[a href=\"http://www.ixpress-hire.com/]http://www.ixpress-hire.com/[/url]
http://www.digitalfusion.net/ (http://www.digitalfusion.net/)
http://www.procentre.co.uk/hire_list_prices.html#hasselblad (http://www.procentre.co.uk/hire_list_prices.html#hasselblad)
http://pixels2go.co.nz/ (http://pixels2go.co.nz/)
http://fotocare.com/html/product.asp?gId=21&mid=22 (http://fotocare.com/html/product.asp?gId=21&mid=22)
Jo S. x
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great! so you are the guy who is happy with having your one year old system made useless by the latest version!
btw: have you heard that phase will build in software correction for mamiya's 28mm (which is actually a real full frame 28mm, also usable with film) in C1V4? i think they are doing that just to counter hass's hype....
enjoy your only full frame DMF camera!
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great! so you are the guy who is happy with having your one year old system made useless by the latest version!
btw: have you heard that phase will build in software correction for mamiya's 28mm (which is actually a real full frame 28mm, also usable with film) in C1V4? i think they are doing that just to counter hass's hype....
enjoy your only full frame DMF camera!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101436\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I don't quite understand your comment(s). I doubt your system is now 'useless' at all.
The whole point of the 28mm is that it is full frame on the sensor therefore no probs with perspective / focal length - important for a wide angle lens don't you think?
Why would I possibly want to use film?
I am not really interested in what Phase is doing - what is the need for 'point scoring' on internet forums? Am I supposed to shrink in fear at the fact Mamiya and Phase will have a corrected 28mm? Good on them really - competition is good for the manufacturers to keep up.
I bought my system in 2006 as my first medium format digital system. The H2D at the time made the most sense, was cheaper, came from the same sales guy and the integration makes it a better camera.
It is not hype to me, and I don't expect it is hype to the other users.
Jo S. x
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I don't quite understand your comment(s). I doubt your system is now 'useless' at all.
The whole point of the 28mm is that it is full frame on the sensor therefore no probs with perspective / focal length - important for a wide angle lens don't you think?
Why would I possibly want to use film?
I am not really interested in what Phase is doing - what is the need for 'point scoring' on internet forums? Am I supposed to shrink in fear at the fact Mamiya and Phase will have a corrected 28mm? Good on them really - competition is good for the manufacturers to keep up.
I bought my system in 2006 as my first medium format digital system. The H2D at the time made the most sense, was cheaper, came from the same sales guy and the integration makes it a better camera.
It is not hype to me, and I don't expect it is hype to the other users.
Jo S. x
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101441\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
same here!
what does full frame have to do with problems perspective/focal length?
a marketing based one sided re-definition of the commonly used term "full frame" falls into the hype category...people who don't read the specs will actually think they are buying a 645 sensor...which they don't...
why would you possibly want to give up the option to use film?
this is not about point scoring at all!
i was wondering if the H3D was backward compatible...which you clarified for me....
i am simply amazed about how much hass actually left their customers high and dry!
i am not a hass user, so i could not care less, but it explains some of the outrage i have witnessed about hass's move....
again: so you are happy that you bought a system in 2006 which is completely incompatible with the system that came out later the same year....good for you...you are a dream customer!
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same here!
what does full frame have to do with problems perspective/focal length?
a marketing based one sided re-definition of the commonly used term "full frame" falls into the hype category...people who don't read the specs will actually think they are buying a 645 sensor...which they don't...
why would you possibly want to give up the option to use film?
this is not about point scoring at all!
i was wondering if the H3D was backward compatible...which you clarified for me....
i am simply amazed about how much hass actually left their customers high and dry!
i am not a hass user, so i could not care less, but it explains some of the outrage i have witnessed about hass's move....
again: so you are happy that you bought a system in 2006 which is completely incompatible with the system that came out later the same year....good for you...you are a dream customer!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101448\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I give up....
It matters not that the sensor is 645, 66, 48mmxwhatever. The fact is the 28mm has an image circle for the 39MP sensor giving a wide angle lens on a 'medium' format camera. Thats all.
I have no use for film... ever!
My system is not incompatible either.
This is becoming a silly argument and I don't want to continue to highjack this thread which is supposed to be about the Hy6.
Jo S x.
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i don't think it will work that way....the Afi will be a closed system...it will have its own mount (as all leaf and phase backs do)....
the sinar backs don't have specific mounts, they use adapters....so all you have to do is get the adapter you want....
i wonder if the sinar Hy6 will ship with a special mount (without adapter)....that would make that a closed camera as well....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101399\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I have said and been clear in many previous posts: Sinar has an adapter plate system, making it possible to use the same back on different camera platforms by changing this adapter.
Thierry
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Thanks Thierry for the good info.
as an aside: For someone waiting to move into MFDB I hope the tone here does not degrade into the same dungeon as DPReview.com. It will be such a shameful loss to many like myself.
Henry
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again: so you are happy that you bought a system in 2006 which is completely incompatible with the system that came out later the same year....good for you...you are a dream customer!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101448\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It is true that an H2D is not compatible with an H3D - because they are both cameras. It's the same way with buying a Canon camera. A 1DS is not compatible with a 1DS-MKII. But Canon does nothing for you. On the other hand, Hasselblad offered a very reasonable upgrade price of $2,000 to anyone who bought an H2D, who wanted to upgrade to H3D.
Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
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It is true that an H2D is not compatible with an H3D - because they are both cameras. It's the same way with buying a Canon camera. A 1DS is not compatible with a 1DS-MKII. But Canon does nothing for you. On the other hand, Hasselblad offered a very reasonable upgrade price of $2,000 to anyone who bought an H2D, who wanted to upgrade to H3D.
Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101457\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You are right but it is matter of convenience isn't it? and you cannot intelligently go against that.
REGARDS
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great! so you are the guy who is happy with having your one year old system made useless by the latest version!
btw: have you heard that phase will build in software correction for mamiya's 28mm (which is actually a real full frame 28mm, also usable with film) in C1V4? i think they are doing that just to counter hass's hype....
enjoy your only full frame DMF camera!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101436\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
1. Where was the announcement that C1 v.4 will provide software-based correction for the Mamiya 28mm lens?
2. Please explain the basis for your assertion that the software-based correction that Hasselblad has already implemented in a product that is actually available in the marketplace is "hype". Did you test the 28mm Hasselblad lens and assess how effective the software correction in Flexcolor is? If not, you really ought to try it. Gratuitous opinions not backed up by a shred of experience compromise every other opinion you may have.
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It is true that an H2D is not compatible with an H3D - because they are both cameras. It's the same way with buying a Canon camera. A 1DS is not compatible with a 1DS-MKII. But Canon does nothing for you. On the other hand, Hasselblad offered a very reasonable upgrade price of $2,000 to anyone who bought an H2D, who wanted to upgrade to H3D.
Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101457\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Steve,
You analogy of the H2d and H3d are somewhat correct though the 20mm lens I put on my 1ds and 1ds2 both works exactly the same or better yet just works.
Consequently does the 28mm hasselblad lens work on an H2 and also why wouldn't anyone think that if Hasselblad offered a tilt shift option, that it also wouldn't require an upgrade to another all in one Hasselblad solution?
Still, someday, some manufacturer is going to explain why they are making us select more limited options without mentioning that the other guy f___'s us over more than they do.
IMO medium format is shooting themselves in the foot if they continue on the all in one approach.
The pie is pretty thin already and does Hasselblad and Leaf/Sinar think they can make a camera that sells in quanity if they just limit it to their own brand of back?
The whole positive idea of a back vs. an all in one camera is the options it gives us.
JR
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The pie is pretty thin already and does Hasselblad and Leaf/Sinar think they can make a camera that sells in quanity if they just limit it to their own brand of back?
The whole positive idea of a back vs. an all in one camera is the options it gives us.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101543\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think that depends on the quality of the product. Certainly Canon has shown it can be done. The idea of limited choices is a concern - especially when the choices cost the amount they do. But at this point, it remains an optional choice. Even with Hasselblad pouring R&D into integrated solutions, they - and all the other medium format players - still offer camera neutral digital backs.
Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
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I think that depends on the quality of the product. Certainly Canon has shown it can be done. The idea of limited choices is a concern - especially when the choices cost the amount they do. But at this point, it remains an optional choice. Even with Hasselblad pouring R&D into integrated solutions, they - and all the other medium format players - still offer camera neutral digital backs.
Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101549\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Obviously the money, or high margins are in the back and not the camera, but there is the issue.
These things are expensive and always seem to require the next upgrade to get a decent lcd, or a fast shoot rate, or something.
It also seems that one maker gets ahead, then the other gets close then another comes up with something and the fourth maker has issues, etc. etc.
Knowing this, I wouild not want to lock myself into a camera that only used a certain back.
Obviouisly the manufacturer's see it differently.
I think they are all lucky that Contax is no more, because eventually I guess they will force us all into going with their all-in-one solution.
Still, I have doubts that any camera platform can survive forcing the larges db maker out of the equation.
JR
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i agree in jr opinion.... all mf manufactors will loose with their actual politics to exclude as many competitors as possible from their "upgrade-politic-cake". it may be a good business for two or three or four years, but its only logical that the total attraction of mf digital systems is not increased by this territorial politics of the 4 companies in the market and so its also logical that less people will be attracted to move from 35mm to 645 systems, so the overall mf market will become even more little as it is already.
its a pity and i wish the companies would go in honest quality/ price competition and not burning their own territory with this protective politics.
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I like what Danijela D. Karic wrote on the other thread which could be also used here, and it goes like this.
The more we talk about them with the reference to show what we consciously believe, better for all of us. Otherwise we will enter the 16th century zone and manufacturers will let us believe that The Earth is square. It is happening right now already! Manufacturers just need a number of more believers I guess to turn it in to Official statement.
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1. Where was the announcement that C1 v.4 will provide software-based correction for the Mamiya 28mm lens?
2. Please explain the basis for your assertion that the software-based correction that Hasselblad has already implemented in a product that is actually available in the marketplace is "hype". Did you test the 28mm Hasselblad lens and assess how effective the software correction in Flexcolor is? If not, you really ought to try it. Gratuitous opinions not backed up by a shred of experience compromise every other opinion you may have.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101524\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
i read it on this forum and asked a dealer if he had heard something about that, he confirmed...nothing set in stone....nothing concrete, no official announcement....
the hype i referred to was the full frame....and generally hass's way of mamaking their product sound far and beyond everybody else's.....
if you read the thread carefully you might have noticed a certain amount of silly bickering going on....so i feel the quote is taken a little out on context...i feel it is obvious that this exchange was not be taken too seriously.....
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Still, someday, some manufacturer is going to explain why they are making us select more limited options [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101543\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It's probably got something to do with the need for ever more specialized connections between lenses and sensors. Look at what Leica is doing with the M8, with micro-lenses, firmware dealing with cyan drift, etc.
It not only costs a lot to integrate a full line of lenses and sensors, but hte requirements are getting ever more critical: the days of "slap the film back on" are long gone, but our expectations haven't. We want an open system, but flawless performance.
This might not be so easy to achieve - and the manuf. are having a heck of a time figuring out whether to close the system, and aim to achieve better integration; or leave it open, and pick up not only additional responsibilities (oh, why can't my Zeiss lens be coded for the M8?), but also figure out how to get paid for providing an open system.
All this, and being chased by the high-end DSLR's from Canon et al as well. Glad I'm not in their business!
Geoff
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I wouild not want to lock myself into a camera that only used a certain back.
Obviouisly the manufacturer's see it differently.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101555\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
My view is that my back is my film stock - I already own fifty fridges full of it and will only use it on a camera that works with it
That incrementally faster or better film becomes available is of no interest to me due to the investment I made in those fifty fridges full
This is where my outlook is diferent from the manufacturers
What blad did was different to canon ect - canon make better film than they did before but all the lenses work on the old film stock - not so hassy
Camera manufacturers used to make a living not selling film but providing the best lenses and bodies they could offer
There was still an upgrade path to keep them in business , AF , VR
Blad should be working on multipoint AF and making it fit 'kodak or fuiji' digital film
Sinar do a great back but thier own camera selection seems odd/incomplete to me
SMM
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It's probably got something to do with the need for ever more specialized connections between lenses and sensors. Look at what Leica is doing with the M8, with micro-lenses, firmware dealing with cyan drift, etc.
It not only costs a lot to integrate a full line of lenses and sensors, but hte requirements are getting ever more critical: the days of "slap the film back on" are long gone, but our expectations haven't. We want an open system, but flawless performance.
This might not be so easy to achieve - and the manuf. are having a heck of a time figuring out whether to close the system, and aim to achieve better integration; or leave it open, and pick up not only additional responsibilities (oh, why can't my Zeiss lens be coded for the M8?), but also figure out how to get paid for providing an open system.
All this, and being chased by the high-end DSLR's from Canon et al as well. Glad I'm not in their business!
Geoff
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101602\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
None of this stuff is perfect and I guess it will all get better.
The thing I dislike about digital capture is all of the proprietary schemes that the manufacturers keep cooking up.
Our wide angle will only work with our "new" camera and of course only with "our" back.
Our new camera will only work with "our" back and then the thing of open source code that isn't really universal (dng) or open file formats .mos that 3rd party convertors only read a part of the settings makes no sense to me.
Imagine Kodak making a film that only worked in Kodak cameras and in Kodak processors with Kodak chemistry. The outcry would have been huge.
Now imaging buying that Kodak camera and being told the only way the new wide angled lens works if you buy the newest Kodak camera and only with a new Kodak film.
That's the way I see all of this and the manufacturer's can talk about specialized processing, special lens correction, etc. etc., but I think we all know the game is to get you to buy into their system and keep upgrading you in that system for your entire career.
Lecia, Sinar, Leaf and Hasselblad can talk all they want about the benifits of their closed end system, but to me all of this is silly.
My original 1ds shoots as good if not better today than it did when I first bought it. My processor options are about unlimited and just about every lens Canon makes will fit on it and work as well with it as they did with film.
My P-30 works fine on my Contax and if I'm tired of that or want to change to a Mamiya or a V-system Phase will change the mount for a very low cost (or I think maybe free for the first 12 months).
Personally, if Leaf, Sinar or Hasselblad want to move us in thier direction of digital backs then just make a better digital back. One with a great lcd, in camera useable jpegs, higher iso. all open source processing options, solid robust software and most importantly the ability to easily switch from camera to camera.
Spend more time writing grey balances and input settings that more resemble film and less time thinking of some way to force me to upgrade to the next level of back, (camera included) or become locked into just one manufacturer.
Don't get me wrong I find all of this digital capture stuff amazing and the fact that I can shoot thousand of drums scans in a day is beyond what anyone thought 10 years ago.
Still, we I look back at how useable my original 1ds is and how easy it was to develope and build a workflow, I see most of these new annoucements to be a step back, rather than a step forward.
When I use my Contax my P-30 and even my A-22 I really wonder what the HY6 or new hasselblad will really give me that I don't have already, other than more cost and quite frankly more limitations.
JR
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I think the MF camera & body makers need to broaden their market by offering lower price backs. The more users they can bring in, then the R&D costs can be distributed better. More users means more body, lens and accessory sales. And once you're in the family, there's no getting out
I feel Mamiya was headed in the right direction with the ZD back. It didn't have the best specs, but it was 48x36 for supposedly $9k or so. If Phase One would take that a step further and offer a 10-12 MP 48x36 back for around $3500 (probably 12-bits & other limitations), that would make MF a real alternative to dSLRs.
We're missing that "cross-over" back that bridges dSLRs and MF prices. I really believe a back of that nature would revolutionize (and revitalize) medium format. Who knows, if Canon really did venture into MF, maybe it would be a good thing... It would certainly shake things up a bit.
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Hi,
I have been looking at Leaf Aptus 75 and Sinar E75 for my new system. Today I spoke with my Phase rep and he has assured me that the new Hy6 Rolleiflex will be available with a Phase back. He told me that Phase has come to an agreeement with Franke & ??.
Can anyone confirm this? My father is helping me finance my first medium format back for a new ad campaign I am shooting and I don't want to go inthe wrong direction. Should I consider Phase One in addition to Leaf and Sinar?
Thank you
Shara Haddad
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None of this stuff is perfect and I guess it will all get better.
When I use my Contax my P-30 and even my A-22 I really wonder what the HY6 or new hasselblad will really give me that I don't have already, other than more cost and quite frankly more limitations.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101627\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hello James Russell,
I am in the process of making a decision on a new medium format back for my Haselblad 503 CW. I have considered Leaf and Sinar and now have spoken with a Phase rep. They tell me Phase is now to be part of the Hy6/AFi. He tells me it would be a mistake to by Leaf or Sinar as they have centerfold issues.
I am very confused, you have used both Leaf and Phase. Can you help me with some consdierations. You say that the Hy6 and new Hasselblad won;t give you m ore than you already have. May I ask what you cirrently have and why you feel that way?
My Hasselblad 503CW and lenses have served me well with fil over the past 3 years. But now ai must shoot a new campain for the tourism ministry and really need to make a decision within the next 3 weeks.
Thank you
Shara Haddem
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Hello James Russell,
I am in the process of making a decision on a new medium format back for my Haselblad 503 CW. I have considered Leaf and Sinar and now have spoken with a Phase rep. They tell me Phase is now to be part of the Hy6/AFi. He tells me it would be a mistake to by Leaf or Sinar as they have centerfold issues.
I am very confused, you have used both Leaf and Phase. Can you help me with some consdierations. You say that the Hy6 and new Hasselblad won;t give you m ore than you already have. May I ask what you cirrently have and why you feel that way?
My Hasselblad 503CW and lenses have served me well with fil over the past 3 years. But now ai must shoot a new campain for the tourism ministry and really need to make a decision within the next 3 weeks.
Thank you
Shara Haddem
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=101788\")
Shara,
I don't know what or how you shoot, so I will just go off of my experiences.
At the time I bought the A-22 I felt it produced the most film like file of any digital camera. Especially processed in CS1.
The first 7 panels of this url. [a href=\"http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/fashion/]http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/fashion/[/url] were shot with the Leaf.
There were issues early on with connectivity of the Aptus and most of us know that Leaf's latest software version lc10 has been slow in coming and limited in features, so I learned the older V-8 software and shot mostly tethered to a G-4 Powerbook.
V-8 was stable and though also limited without a temp slider, or an easy way to batch process, it is fast simple software that works well on G4 powerbooks.
The only way to effeciently batch process the Aptus was with CS1 or CS2.
I recently added a P-30 to my contax kit and in the last few months have shot around 15,000 or so frames.
The P-30 is fast and secure tethered and non tethered. For tethering I originally shot with my 17" G4 powerbooks and though the back would shoot fast, previews were slow to build, so I added a new 17" intel book which made the preview time much quicker.
I also shoot the P-30 un tethered and it is stable, fast and easy to use, virtually as easy as the Canon dslrs, except for the lcd which can be somewhat of a challenge to learn to read properly.
Now keep in mind these are two entirely different backs. The A-22 is limited in useable iso to 200 and the P-30 goes to 400 clean and even 800 when actually needed in a pinch. The A-22 is also an older style chip though covers more area (1.1 crop vs. the P-30 1.3 crop), though the P-30 has more real detail.
Phase's C-1 software is very full featured and stable software and in processing large batchs of files to make jpegs for web galleries it is IMO the most robust and best batch processing software I have used.
These are some out takes from a recent lifestyle campaign shooting with the P-30
http://www.russellrutherford.com/recent_miami/ (http://www.russellrutherford.com/recent_miami/)
For this 4 day shoot I shot over 5,000 frames without issue. In fact, since this project had such a heavy schedule and required so much movement and interaction, I really thought I would shoot it with the Canon's, but out of the 4 days only used the Canon's on 3 very small occasions.
Now the bottom line. Could I have shot this last project with my A-22. Well some of it, but not all and at the end of the day I would have probably revereted to the Canons for the majority of it.
Could I have produced my earlier Aptus work with the P-30 . . . most definately, though I still hold to the fact that the Aptus can produce a very beautiful file.
Really, the difference between these two backs are in the useability. The P-30 goes to much higher iso and is more stable and for stable workflow, as of today, nothing comes close to C-1.
The P-30 also will allow you to tether to virtually any comptuer and use the battery in the back to stop any connection issues and though it seems like a small thing the P-30 allows you to see the lcd image while tethering and the Aptus does not.
Out of the can the P-30 produces, IMO a much more pleasing file, though both the A-22 and the Phase can both produce stunning results.
Once again, in my opinion the Phase is today a more mature product.
It really depends on the volume you shoot, the iso you need and if the P-30's 1.3 crop factor will bother you compared to the Leaf's 1.1 crop factor.
Workflow is just another matter entriely and the Phase wins on this score hands down.
Leaf does have good customer service and is quick to respond when they have a fix, though fixes for leaf software seem to be slow in coming.
Phase relies on dealer support for tech service and training so if you go that route be sure to use a good dealer.
My dealer Dave Gallagher at Digital transitions is one of the best and for me has been available virtually 24/7, though I have had few reasons to ask for any assistance.
JR
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Dear Shara,
without entering in the details (which are confidential), none of this is true!
Best regards,
Thierry
Hi,
I have been looking at Leaf Aptus 75 and Sinar E75 for my new system. Today I spoke with my Phase rep and he has assured me that the new Hy6 Rolleiflex will be available with a Phase back. He told me that Phase has come to an agreeement with Franke & ??.
Can anyone confirm this? My father is helping me finance my first medium format back for a new ad campaign I am shooting and I don't want to go inthe wrong direction. Should I consider Phase One in addition to Leaf and Sinar?
Thank you
Shara Haddad
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101785\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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without entering in the details (which are confidential), none of this is true!
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101838\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Jeje, this is part of the problem Thierry. You (Sinar , Leaf and Franke & Heidecke), should be marketing the new camera right to the possible customers (like myself) instead of hidding this details. None inform us sincererly about this camera. None has seen it, none can say about compatibilities... etc...
I think I'm starting to see it clear: The three cameras will be different too, not only the name, Am I right? They will have different mounts and software. The sinar with sinar backs, the Leaf with leaf backs and the one labeled Rollei won't be sold in europe or USA because then everyone will be buying the Rollei (I'd buy the rollei) so...
I think you need to learn from Hasselblad, and me, living in Sweden, is starting to think seriously that the best option is going the hasselblad way, which is in anyway a "less closed system" and a straight and clear marketed option, even with it's downsides.
Best Regards
Samuel
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Dear Samuel,
Thanks for your post and remarks.
Please remember that I have already and many times informed in full and details about the distribution of the Sinar Hy6: all information needed by the market and by customers has been fully disclosed by myself, under the Sinar name, and in many different treads here since months ago, latest about 2 weeks ago.
Also your questions in the second part of your post have been answered already, a couple of weeks ago. None of what you are stating has ever been said by mysef.
I (we) have been as sincere as I (we) think I (we) could be, without distorsion of the truth.
If you read again what has been said and written by myself on this forum, you will find all necessary information. I don't think I have been hiding something. Simply, there are also contracts between the different parties, which do not have much interest for photographers or customers, and which are confidential as many contracts (NDA's). And which should be respected.
Please read my posts.
Thanks for your understanding and best regards,
Thierry
Jeje, this is part of the problem Thierry. You (Sinar , Leaf and Franke & Heidecke), should be marketing the new camera right to the possible customers (like myself) instead of hidding this details. None inform us sincererly about this camera. None has seen it, none can say about compatibilities... etc...
I think I'm starting to see it clear: The three cameras will be different too, not only the name, Am I right? They will have different mounts and software. The sinar with sinar backs, the Leaf with leaf backs and the one labeled Rollei won't be sold in europe or USA because then everyone will be buying the Rollei (I'd buy the rollei) so...
I think you need to learn from Hasselblad, and me, living in Sweden, is starting to think seriously that the best option is going the hasselblad way, which is in anyway a "less closed system" and a straight and clear marketed option, even with it's downsides.
Best Regards
Samuel
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101866\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I hope leaf users don't kill me for saying this shara but it seems most people who buy the leaf aptus 75 have big serious problems with it, it seems mainly with center line issues but also with the software. Also I hear the A65 has big color problems. Speaking from experience, none of which your leaf rep will tell you about. I haven't heard anyone having any problems with the phase P30. I have the P21 which is great also, no problems at all. It used to be that people thought the leaf files looked better than the phase but no one claims that any more. i would advise against buying a leaf.
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I hope leaf users don't kill me for saying this shara but it seems most people who buy the leaf aptus 75 have big serious problems with it, it seems mainly with center line issues but also with the software. Also I hear the A65 has big color problems. Speaking from experience, none of which your leaf rep will tell you about. I haven't heard anyone having any problems with the phase P30. I have the P21 which is great also, no problems at all. It used to be that people thought the leaf files looked better than the phase but no one claims that any more. i would advise against buying a leaf.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101872\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Nobody's going to kill anyone Aon, but since Shara is looking for first hand experience, I'd strongly suggest that she gets first hand advice i.e from users of the products in question...
I hope you take this as a constructive comment,
Thanks
Yair
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Nobody's going to kill anyone Aon, but since Shara is looking for first hand experience, I'd strongly suggest that she gets first hand advice i.e from users of the products in question...
I hope you take this as a constructive comment,
Thanks
Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101873\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I suggest that when anyone test one of these backs, to test them in the same envrionment as they actually work on their most pressured day.
If you shoot 1,200 frames a day tethered, then test it that way and then have the reps assist you in making jpegs for web galleries with multiple settings to see if the software and the hardware hold up under your exact use.
In your test, shoot tethered, pull the cord and try to restart the programs, or try to edit on set while your shooting. For me these are the unforeseen things that come up during a shoot and can make the difference between getting the shot or not.
Pixel peeping and comparing files can tell you a few things, but it usually take weeks, even months to really learn how to move a file around to your style of photography, regardless of that style.
Getting the shot and processing it for web galleries are the first parts of the process that must be stable, fast and secure and regardless of you camera platform or back choice, test them in the worst case sceanrios then you will feel secure when you step out to work.
JR
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Just one little thing: Dave Gallagher is with Capture Integration, not Digital Transitions. I got my P30 from Dave, and he and the rest of the people there are indeed great.
My dealer Dave Gallagher at Digital transitions is one of the best and for me has been available virtually 24/7, though I have had few reasons to ask for any assistance.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101824\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Dear Shara,
without entering in the details (which are confidential), none of this is true!
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101838\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I understand your frustration, Thierry, in trying to get your point across that Phase backs are not formally part of the Hy6 program. However, there continues to be great uncertainty in some quarters as to just what that means in practical terms. It would be helpful if you could explain whether it will be possible for a customer to buy a Hy6 from Sinar or Leaf without a back that, with an adapter made by Phase or someone else(or perhaps a version of the Phase back configured to fit on the Hy6), would allow the customer to mount the Phase back on the Hy6 and the camera would then work "perfectly". Or, will the camera not recognize any digital back other than a Leaf or Sinar back, just like the H3D won't recognize and operate with any back other than the one sold with the camera? In other words, is the Hy6 going to be an "open" platform like the H2 or "closed" like the H3?
This should be easy to clarify. [G]
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I suggest that when anyone test one of these backs, to test them in the same envrionment as they actually work on their most pressured day.
If you shoot 1,200 frames a day tethered, then test it that way and then have the reps assist you in making jpegs for web galleries with multiple settings to see if the software and the hardware hold up under your exact use.
In your test, shoot tethered, pull the cord and try to restart the programs, or try to edit on set while your shooting. For me these are the unforeseen things that come up during a shoot and can make the difference between getting the shot or not.
Pixel peeping and comparing files can tell you a few things, but it usually take weeks, even months to really learn how to move a file around to your style of photography, regardless of that style.
Getting the shot and processing it for web galleries are the first parts of the process that must be stable, fast and secure and regardless of you camera platform or back choice, test them in the worst case sceanrios then you will feel secure when you step out to work.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101876\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well, I partially agree with you, personally I would be too chicken to test a back on a job and re-creating what a job is like with a test just doesn't work, bit of a catch 22 really. Also, like you say it takes weeks to really work out a back and some problems just won't come up on a test with a rep there. Another problem is that people have been testing leaf backs, buying them and finding that they have the centrefold problem. The demo backs never seem to have the centreline problem it seems. So in this instance testing the back would not be much help to you. I think I remember a (cough cough) certain person of very high credibility having all sorts of problems with the A65 so that rules that out for me at least. Because of this it seems there isn't much point in even putting the effort into testing the leaf backs. Another thing I've learned is that putting any weight into what software will be available in the future is of no use, it often doesn't come. It is all a bit harsh but I really feel for the photographer asking our advice who's getting help form her dad, I'd hate to see her end up with a camera she can't even use for a couple of months while they send her backs untill she gets one that works. She should test backs before buying if she can, but she should also be aware of whats happened to other leaf owners who visit this forum.
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I understand your frustration, Thierry, in trying to get your point across that Phase backs are not formally part of the Hy6 program. However, there continues to be great uncertainty in some quarters as to just what that means in practical terms. It would be helpful if you could explain whether it will be possible for a customer to buy a Hy6 from Sinar or Leaf without a back that, with an adapter made by Phase or someone else(or perhaps a version of the Phase back configured to fit on the Hy6), would allow the customer to mount the Phase back on the Hy6 and the camera would then work "perfectly". Or, will the camera not recognize any digital back other than a Leaf or Sinar back, just like the H3D won't recognize and operate with any back other than the one sold with the camera? In other words, is the Hy6 going to be an "open" platform like the H2 or "closed" like the H3?
This should be easy to clarify. [G]
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101889\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I understand everybody's questions and can (partly) answer like following:
- It will certainly be possible to buy a Sinar Hy6 camera body without any digital back, as well from Sinar distributors in all countries other than JP, CN and RU, as well as from F&H in Japan, China and Russia: do not forget that this camera is meant for the use with film as well, and that some customers having their back already might wish to adapt it to this new platform.
- As such, Sinar does not has the upper-hand anymore on what happens thereafter.
- If another back manufacturer than Sinar will be able (and willing) to produce adapter plates with all the features and connection available on this Hy6? I would not allow myself to answer here for other companies. But it has to be known that it needs the command and connections protocols.
- I do not wish, and am not able to answer for Leaf with regards to your first question.
- I am not frutrated (yet!), and am willing to explain whatever can still be explained. I am just thinking that it doesn't need to repeat myself since many has been said and stated and informed by myself on LLF already, since the begining
I hope this is helpful, from the Sinar point of view.
Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
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I understand everybody's questions and can (partly) answer like following:
- It will certainly be possible to buy a Sinar Hy6 camera body without any digital back, as well from Sinar distributors in most countries, as from F&H in Japan, China and Russia: do not forget that this camera is meant for the use with film as well, and that some customers having their back already might wish to adapt it to this new platform.
- As such, Sinar does not has the upper-hand anymore on what happens thereafter.
- If another back manufacturer than Sinar will be able (and willing) to produce adapter plates with all the features and connection available on this Hy6? I would not allow myself to answer here for other companies. But it has to be known that it needs the command and connections protocols.
- I do not wish, and am not able to answer for Leaf with regards to your first question.
- I am not frutrated (yet!), and am willing to explain whatever can still be explained. I am just thinking that it doesn't need to repeat myself since many has been said and stated and informed by myself on LLF already, since the begining
I hope this is helpful, from the Sinar point of view.
Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101891\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thierry,
One question remains with me. Allright you do need to know communication protocols with the camera to be able to 'talk' to it to get all functionality between back and camera.
Well, now I am thinking about it, 2 questions (or even several). Will Sinar have some sort of SDK (or other kit) for 3rd parties that want to create those adapters?
I assume, it will always be possible to hook up mechanically and use a sync-cord?
Much more actually will Sinar actively support others to manufacture adapterplates or will it make that particularly difficult? This is a fairly fundamental question and does show where Sinar as a company wants to be going.
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- If another back manufacturer than Sinar will be able (and willing) to produce adapter plates with all the features and connection available on this Hy6? I would not allow myself to answer here for other companies. But it has to be known that it needs the command and connections protocols.
Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101891\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Will the "command and connections protocols" for the Hy6 be licensed by Sinar/Jenoptic to Phase or other MFDB makers?
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Thierry,
One question remains with me. Allright you do need to know communication protocols with the camera to be able to 'talk' to it to get all functionality between back and camera.
Well, now I am thinking about it, 2 questions (or even several). Will Sinar have some sort of SDK (or other kit) for 3rd parties that want to create those adapters?
I assume, it will always be possible to hook up mechanically and use a sync-cord?
Much more actually will Sinar actively support others to manufacture adapterplates or will it make that particularly difficult? This is a fairly fundamental question and does show where Sinar as a company wants to be going.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101893\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
This has already been answered long ago: we have currently no plans to produce or support other back manufacturers for their adapter system.
Best regards,
Thierry
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This has already been answered long ago: we have currently no plans to produce or support other back manufacturers for their adapter system.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101902\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That was not my question and your answer is only part of it. I have read that answer and understand it very well. There are more adapter plate manufacturers than other MFDB manufacturers. I was actually more referring to 3rd party manufacturers that have no link towards any DB manufacturer.
The way you have formulated this answer leads me to believe that Sinar (or the actual IP holder) will not be willing to license/share the communication protocols. This way a 3rd party will have to reverse engineer the protocols which is doable but harder.
In my opinion that disqualifies it from the term open system.
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That was not my question and your answer is only part of it. I have read that answer and understand it very well. There are more adapter plate manufacturers than other MFDB manufacturers. I was actually more referring to 3rd party manufacturers that have no link towards any DB manufacturer.
The way you have formulated this answer leads me to believe that Sinar (or the actual IP holder) will not be willing to license/share the communication protocols. This way a 3rd party will have to reverse engineer the protocols which is doable but harder.
In my opinion that disqualifies it from the term open system.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101911\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Sorry, if I misread your question: I have to admit that I over-read it!
But I am as clear as for my previous answer: NO, such is currently not planed.
Best regards,
thierry
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Sorry, if I misread your question: I have to admit that I over-read it!
Best regards,
thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101916\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Don't worry I am not offended. I tend to read too quickly as well.
But I am as clear as for my previous answer: NO, such is currently not planed.
Best regards,
thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101916\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I am really sorry to hear that. I believe that to be a mistake.
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Sorry, if I misread your question: I have to admit that I over-read it!
But I am as clear as for my previous answer: NO, such is currently not planed.
Best regards,
thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101916\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Just got off the Phone with a Phase One rep. He says you are wrong Thierry and that Phase has in fact come to an agreement to support this camera. Perhaps you can double check.
I am baffled......and I am really starting to question the entire MFDB industry and their claims, misinformation and unkept promises.
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Just got off the Phone with a Phase One rep. He says you are wrong Thierry and that Phase has in fact come to an agreement to support this camera. Perhaps you can double check.
I am baffled......and I am really starting to question the entire MFDB industry and their claims, misinformation and unkept promises.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101922\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think a golden rule is to disregard all promises and speculations about what might be and only consider what is on the market right now and works, I wouldn't even think about the hy6 if I were you.
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Sinar & Leaf has invested money, time & marketing their product. They come here instantly & answer all questions & redundant questions...but the frustration on part of loyal Phase owners should go toward the Phase One. To me seems like Phase wants to get a free ride from Hasselblad or Sinar or Leaf, let them invest their money, while Phase One will just keep quite & cash in after everyone's product is out...shame on you Phase one!! & certainly not to S, L & H!!!
How come these questions are not asked to Phase One? How come they don't show up on these forums, unless they just don't offer any support & let existing Phase owners do all their marketing, as they DO have vested (or is it wasted!!) interest in making Phase One succeed!!
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I am sorry Shara, in this case I cannot say more than what I have already.
Again, I try to inform with what I know and which are our plans and policy.
I think I better keep quiet from now on, since all can be put in question.
Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
Just got off the Phone with a Phase One rep. He says you are wrong Thierry and that Phase has in fact come to an agreement to support this camera. Perhaps you can double check.
I am baffled......and I am really starting to question the entire MFDB industry and their claims, misinformation and unkept promises.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101922\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Sinar & Leaf has invested money, time & marketing their product. They come here instantly & answer all questions & redundant questions...but the frustration on part of loyal Phase owners should go toward the Phase One. To me seems like Phase wants to get a free ride from Hasselblad or Sinar or Leaf, let them invest their money, while Phase One will just keep quite & cash in after everyone's product is out...shame on you Phase one!! & certainly not to S, L & H!!!
How come these questions are not asked to Phase One? How come they don't show up on these forums, unless they just don't offer any support & let existing Phase owners do all their marketing, as they DO have vested (or is it wasted!!) interest in making Phase One succeed!!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101925\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm sorry, this is totally nonsense. Phase one is making digital backs compatible with almost every popupar-commonn MF/LF camera and the best software.
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Shara,
if you are going into a system for an new gig and yhou want no headaches the only way to go is either PhaseOne or Hasselblad at the moment.
What ever Phase is telling you on the phone is not happening now. Will it happen, most likely. But the question is how long. Work with a good dealer that will allow you a plate/mount exchange within the first 12 months.
If you need something for now go with PhaseOne and then depending on your need you Have Hasselbald H1/2, Mamiya AFDII and Contax. The least expensive ways to get into it is either Mamiya or Contax. The only advantage to H1/2 is the flash sync, which only matters outdoors or if you arte a still life stopping some liquid action.
With the Mamiya you can get a plate for $800 and use it on the RZ with out cables. You can pick up like new RZ gear for a song and a great AFDII kit for the cost of an H1/2 with one lens.
If and When the Hy6 comes out and can be used on PhaseOne you can look at selling the Mamiya gear for very little loss and upgrade your mount to a Rollei.
I am not sure where in the world you are located. But Capture Intergration is an awesome company to deal with and I am sure they can cover you anywhere. Call Chris Lawery there and he will work with getting you going. You can reach these guys at 10pm and they will answer your questions with out fail.
Best of luck
R
Just got off the Phone with a Phase One rep. He says you are wrong Thierry and that Phase has in fact come to an agreement to support this camera. Perhaps you can double check.
I am baffled......and I am really starting to question the entire MFDB industry and their claims, misinformation and unkept promises.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101922\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Shara,
if you are going into a system for an new gig and yhou want no headaches the only way to go is either PhaseOne or Hasselblad at the moment.
why that?
you can put any back on the h1/2, contax or mamiya, isnt it?
about the HY6:
i dont understand all this hype and all this speculations. lets wait and see,- not any healthy person should make a decision in this market for any announcements. sometimes i believe the companies are trying to tell their actual truth, but this industry now is really computer industry and so the devellopement cycles are that fast, that noone knows anything in fact before it is ready, which will be short time before it hits the market and the first users.
anyway its confirmed many times by both sinar+leaf, that they will share the same mount and that you will be able to buy the camera ( at least the hy6 ) without a back and that everybody is free to make a adapter plate. but all that is future. who is buying a back now want to use it now, not "maybe" in one or two years.
so take the advice if you go in a "normal" mf system, go in contax ( my favourite cause i like mine very much) or mamiya ( most economic and great prices and lenses ) or H1/2 ( expansive but standard ),- still there remains also the rollei6008 ( dont think that all back manufactors are supporting it ), i dont know much about the rolleis although stephan is using one.
which back you mount on that cameras is another question, ofcourse it can be a phase back....... but why it HAS to be one is out of my sight.
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Just got off the Phone with a Phase One rep. He says you are wrong Thierry and that Phase has in fact come to an agreement to support this camera. Perhaps you can double check.
I am baffled......and I am really starting to question the entire MFDB industry and their claims, misinformation and unkept promises.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101922\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Welcome to the Real World of MFDBs where you should not believe anything you are told about what cameras, lenses, software, features, and functions will be forthcoming. Buy only on the basis of what exists today and best serves your needs. This bull.... that the Phase rep is feeding you is so typical. If Phase had anything concrete to report on the Hy6 project and its involvement, you can be assured that they would have reported it. Phase is very good at announcing all kinds of things before they happen. Thierry, OTOH, works for the company that owns the Hy6 project and he signs on here under his real name and title. I suppose that you could ask for a letter from the Phase factory(NOT the rep) that new Phase backs will be usable with a Hy6 by say the end of 2007 by the use of an adapter system that Phase will be releasing, with full functionality of the Hy6, and that Phase will give you a full refund on the price of your Phase back if it does not meet its commitment, but I wouldn't waste my breath. You will never get it. If you want a Phase back, buy an existing MF camera that works with it now. An H2, a Mamiya 645 or a used Contax.
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I am sorry Shara, in this case I cannot say more than what I have already.
Again, I try to inform with what I know and which are our plans and policy.
I think I better keep quiet from now on, since all can be put in question.
Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101929\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I certainly hope you will not keep quiet.
I respect that there are answers you cannot give or do not want to give for whatever reason but that will not refrain me from asking
BTW.
Not everybody is asking these questions because they want to put a Phase on the Hy6.
I also want to know on how many other machines (like Kapturegroup, Silvestri, etc..) I can put a Hy6/Afi back. Naturally I also ask that question to those companies. These companies don't necessarily need the communication protocols but at least do need to be able to make the physical connection, get the sensor in the right place and be able to trigger the back (via sync).
I know I can do this with Sinar as well as Imacon however I do like working with Leaf (so I said it.. it is out.. I like working with Leaf) but I doubt whether I like it so much to buy 2.
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As much as I love the idea of the Hy6, it seems to me that, from a professional's perspective, the back end (the digital back and software workflow) is ultimately more important than the front end (the camera). To be clear, I am not a full time pro myself; I do shoot for pay, but I don't have to worry about it paying my mortgage, because I have another job. Accordingly, I have more freedom of choice than those of you who make a living from photography.
Why do I say choosing the back is more important than choosing the camera? Well, it seems to me that most modern medium format cameras will do largely the same thing (capture light) with marginally varying degrees of sophistication or quality. E.g., yes, Schneider lenses are fabulous and I love them, but will the client really be able to tell (especially after post-processing) whether you shot the job with a Schneider, Mamiya, or Zeiss lens? Unlikely. Yes, WE as photographers might be able to tell the difference, but the fact is that, in my experience, even very sophisticated clients are not as critical of the technical differences between cameras as we are.
Contrast that with potential differences amongst the backs. Assume that Back A is very stable, doesn't crash when shooting, and allows you to process the files quickly and with great quality. Back B, on the other hand, tends to crash a lot, displays some technical defects in the file itself, and has to be processed thru slow and clunky software. The client WILL know if there's a big line running down the center of the image, or if the camera fails when shooting, or if the image is unusable because it had to be shot at dusk with existing light and the back's high ISO performance creates too much noise, or if it takes you 3 days rather than the 1 day you promised to get the proofs done, etc.
Don't get me wrong: I'm quite the gear hound and really really really want to be able to use my P30 on the Hy6. But, as much as I'd like to have a Hy6, I'm NOT going to buy a different back for it just to get the use of that camera. More specifically, I'm not going to buy a back that doesn't fit my needs as well; if Leaf or Sinar come out with a back (and software) that works as well as my P30 does for me currently, then sure, I'd switch, but that would be because of the back, not the camera.
So, if the Hy6 (or any other camera) does something that is absolutely critical to your work that you cannot get with another camera, then go for it. (E.g., if fast flash sync is really crucial, you need the leaf shutter lenses of a Hy6, Rollei 6008, or a Hassy). Otherwise, pick the back you need, then figure out what cameras will work with it.
Hi,
I have been looking at Leaf Aptus 75 and Sinar E75 for my new system. Today I spoke with my Phase rep and he has assured me that the new Hy6 Rolleiflex will be available with a Phase back. He told me that Phase has come to an agreeement with Franke & ??.
Can anyone confirm this? My father is helping me finance my first medium format back for a new ad campaign I am shooting and I don't want to go inthe wrong direction. Should I consider Phase One in addition to Leaf and Sinar?
Thank you
Shara Haddad
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101785\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Welcome to the Real World of MFDBs where you should not believe anything you are told about what cameras, lenses, software, features, and functions will be forthcoming. Buy only on the basis of what exists today and best serves your needs. This bull.... that the Phase rep is feeding you is so typical. If Phase had anything concrete to report on the Hy6 project and its involvement, you can be assured that they would have reported it. Phase is very good at announcing all kinds of things before they happen. Thierry, OTOH, works for the company that owns the Hy6 project and he signs on here under his real name and title. I suppose that you could ask for a letter from the Phase factory(NOT the rep) that new Phase backs will be usable with a Hy6 by say the end of 2007 by the use of an adapter system that Phase will be releasing, with full functionality of the Hy6, and that Phase will give you a full refund on the price of your Phase back if it does not meet its commitment, but I wouldn't waste my breath. You will never get it. If you want a Phase back, buy an existing MF camera that works with it now. An H2, a Mamiya 645 or a used Contax.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101960\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
so you might as well ask thierry and yair for the same thing and a refund if the Hy6 does in fact support phase backs by a certain time!
the bottom line is that the camera isn't even shipping yet...we are all hoping it will..it will accept schneider lenses, there will be new lenses coming out....leaf and sinar backs will be supported right away....these are the things we know...the time frame for all this is the next 6-8 months....a lot of things can happen in the meantime and after...and we just don't know yet and i would not believe any rep or a even signed piece of paper...we can draw our own conclusions from what has happened in the past and existing products....from that i truly believe without a doubt that someone, somewhere will make a phase adapter for the camera....
either way for a professional working today none of this really makes any sense...i can't hope to be able to shoot with a future product in nov.2007!?!?
unless of course someone wants a sinar back, great, get the 6008, switch to Hy6 when it ships....if someone wants a leaf back, you will have to wait (and be without a camera for a couple of months) or buy a leaf back for H1/2, mamiya, contax and switch mounts when the AFi ships (or maybe leaf will prvide a tade in deal of some kind?).....if someone wants a phase back, wait a little longer or get a H1/2, mamiya, contax and switch mounts when the adapter or whatever comes out....but you are taking a chance that there will never be an adapter....
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As much as I love the idea of the Hy6, it seems to me that, from a professional's perspective, the back end (the digital back and software workflow) is ultimately more important than the front end (the camera). To be clear, I am not a full time pro myself; I do shoot for pay, but I don't have to worry about it paying my mortgage, because I have another job. Accordingly, I have more freedom of choice than those of you who make a living from photography.
Why do I say choosing the back is more important than choosing the camera? Well, it seems to me that most modern medium format cameras will do largely the same thing (capture light) with marginally varying degrees of sophistication or quality. E.g., yes, Schneider lenses are fabulous and I love them, but will the client really be able to tell (especially after post-processing) whether you shot the job with a Schneider, Mamiya, or Zeiss lens? Unlikely. Yes, WE as photographers might be able to tell the difference, but the fact is that, in my experience, even very sophisticated clients are not as critical of the technical differences between cameras as we are.
Contrast that with potential differences amongst the backs. Assume that Back A is very stable, doesn't crash when shooting, and allows you to process the files quickly and with great quality. Back B, on the other hand, tends to crash a lot, displays some technical defects in the file itself, and has to be processed thru slow and clunky software. The client WILL know if there's a big line running down the center of the image, or if the camera fails when shooting, or if the image is unusable because it had to be shot at dusk with existing light and the back's high ISO performance creates too much noise, or if it takes you 3 days rather than the 1 day you promised to get the proofs done, etc.
Don't get me wrong: I'm quite the gear hound and really really really want to be able to use my P30 on the Hy6. But, as much as I'd like to have a Hy6, I'm NOT going to buy a different back for it just to get the use of that camera. More specifically, I'm not going to buy a back that doesn't fit my needs as well; if Leaf or Sinar come out with a back (and software) that works as well as my P30 does for me currently, then sure, I'd switch, but that would be because of the back, not the camera.
So, if the Hy6 (or any other camera) does something that is absolutely critical to your work that you cannot get with another camera, then go for it. (E.g., if fast flash sync is really crucial, you need the leaf shutter lenses of a Hy6, Rollei 6008, or a Hassy). Otherwise, pick the back you need, then figure out what cameras will work with it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101964\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
same here....i switched from a 6008 with P20 to mamiya 645 and RZ with P30...i looked at all the backs..the emotion was very close, but in the end the P30 was the best choice for me....as hard as it was to give up my schneider glass....i really want the Hy6 to accept phase backs, and i think it can really only succeed if it does....you can't win in this market if you start at 0% (Hy6) or 1%(6008, don't know the actual percentage, but i am pretty sure it is less) and cut out 50% of your target group....even if it is not about winning, i think it would be hard to stay alive....
choose your back, test them all, maybe you are happy with the H system! figure out a workflow....
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same here....i switched from a 6008 with P20 to mamiya 645 and RZ with P30...i looked at all the backs..the emotion was very close, but in the end the P30 was the best choice for me....as hard as it was to give up my schneider glass....i really want the Hy6 to accept phase backs, and i think it can really only succeed if it does....[span style=\'font-size:21pt;line-height:100%\']you can't win in this market if you start at 0% (Hy6)[/span] or 1%(6008, don't know the actual percentage, but i am pretty sure it is less) and cut out 50% of your target group....even if it is not about winning, i think it would be hard to stay alive....
choose your back, test them all, maybe you are happy with the H system! figure out a workflow....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101967\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I totally agree.
Regards
Danijela
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same here....i switched from a 6008 with P20 to mamiya 645 and RZ with P30...i looked at all the backs..the emotion was very close, but in the end the P30 was the best choice for me....as hard as it was to give up my schneider glass....i really want the Hy6 to accept phase backs, and i think it can really only succeed if it does....you can't win in this market if you start at 0% (Hy6) or 1%(6008, don't know the actual percentage, but i am pretty sure it is less) and cut out 50% of your target group....even if it is not about winning, i think it would be hard to stay alive....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101967\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The basic flaw in your thinking is that Sinar and Leaf(who bankrolled the Hy6 project and essentially own it) don't want to win the "battle" and become successful camera distributors by selling lots of cameras and lenses for Phase back owners. They really have no interest in selling cameras to Phase owners. Period. End of story. Thierry and Yair have basically repeated this over and over again. The only issue is how difficult they will make it for Phase owners to mount a Phase back on a Hy6. They want to win the "war" by selling more digital backs. If Sinar now has 5% of the MFDB market today and still has the same 5% after the introduction of the Hy6, do you think they would feel that the Hy6 venture was a success because they were selling a bunch of cameras to Phase owners to help Phase compete with them and Hasselblad?
The only way I see this changing is if their strategy for capturing market share collapses. Then, they may just sell the whole Hy6 venture and their MFDB businesses to Phase and walk away, leaving Phase and Hassy to fight it out.
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The basic flaw in your thinking is that Sinar and Leaf(who bankrolled the Hy6 project and essentially own it) don't want to win the "battle" and become successful camera distributors by selling lots of cameras and lenses for Phase back owners. They really have no interest in selling cameras to Phase owners. Period. End of story. Thierry and Yair have basically repeated this over and over again. The only issue is how difficult they will make it for Phase owners to mount a Phase back on a Hy6. They want to win the "war" by selling more digital backs. If Sinar now has 5% of the MFDB market today and still has the same 5% after the introduction of the Hy6, do you think they would feel that the Hy6 venture was a success because they were selling a bunch of cameras to Phase owners to help Phase compete with them and Hasselblad?
The only way I see this changing is if their strategy for capturing market share collapses. Then, they may just sell the whole Hy6 venture and their MFDB businesses to Phase and walk away, leaving Phase and Hassy to fight it out.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=102028\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
And you think the H/Phaseone - 6008/Phaseone owners will buy a new hy6 and a new DB too? Just like that? I think this "battle" is already lost.... and the cameras are not even out...
I think maybe Sinar is missing the Hasselblad still have an H1/H2 which are open systems. You can put anything on them inclusive sinar/leaf. And Rollei 6008/Contax/mamiya are still there...
Best Regards
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The basic flaw in your thinking is that Sinar and Leaf(who bankrolled the Hy6 project and essentially own it) don't want to win the "battle" and become successful camera distributors by selling lots of cameras and lenses for Phase back owners. They really have no interest in selling cameras to Phase owners. Period. End of story. Thierry and Yair have basically repeated this over and over again. The only issue is how difficult they will make it for Phase owners to mount a Phase back on a Hy6. They want to win the "war" by selling more digital backs. If Sinar now has 5% of the MFDB market today and still has the same 5% after the introduction of the Hy6, do you think they would feel that the Hy6 venture was a success because they were selling a bunch of cameras to Phase owners to help Phase compete with them and Hasselblad?
The only way I see this changing is if their strategy for capturing market share collapses. Then, they may just sell the whole Hy6 venture and their MFDB businesses to Phase and walk away, leaving Phase and Hassy to fight it out.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=102028\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
with no disrespect to either thierry or yair: as far as i am concerned they can tattoo "no phase on Hy6" on their lower backs...does not mean a thing....they are ding the same thing the phase reps do...telling their customers what is in the best interest of their companies....i have heard form my ep and my dealer that phase will be supported....some one else in this thread has as well...does that make a difference? no..i won't believe it until i see it....or i still haven't seen it in 2 years from now....i would not plan on it either way...i chose phase, (i am still hoping for the Hy6) and i shoot mamiya because it works NOW....for me....
leaf does not own the Hy6...rollei was working on it long before leaf or sinar were interested....
sinar obviously does not care about marketshare at all...look at the M....
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I guess this question does not really concern me, and Leaf should give answer here.
However, as for the first part of your question: there is NO Hy6 Back, and all exisiting and future Sinarbacks can and will be able to be mounted on any exisitng camera platform (V-Mount) and if there is no mechanical impossibility.
Best regards,
Thierry
I certainly hope you will not keep quiet.
I respect that there are answers you cannot give or do not want to give for whatever reason but that will not refrain me from asking
BTW.
Not everybody is asking these questions because they want to put a Phase on the Hy6.
I also want to know on how many other machines (like Kapturegroup, Silvestri, etc..) I can put a Hy6/Afi back. Naturally I also ask that question to those companies. These companies don't necessarily need the communication protocols but at least do need to be able to make the physical connection, get the sensor in the right place and be able to trigger the back (via sync).
I know I can do this with Sinar as well as Imacon however I do like working with Leaf (so I said it.. it is out.. I like working with Leaf) but I doubt whether I like it so much to buy 2.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101961\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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neither Sinar nor Leaf, nor even Rollei (read Franke & Heidecke) own the Hy6 project: it is Jenoptik
Thierry
leaf does not own the Hy6...rollei was working on it long before leaf or sinar were interested....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=102034\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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with no disrespect to either thierry or yair: as far as i am concerned they can tattoo "no phase on Hy6" on their lower backs...
1. They have essentially done that.
does not mean a thing....they are ding the same thing the phase reps do...telling their customers what is in the best interest of their companies....i have heard form my ep and my dealer that phase will be supported....some one else in this thread has as well...
2. There is a major difference between what Sinar/Jenoptik and Leaf as the owners of the Hy6 project say on the record v. what some clueless Phase rep trying to sell a back to a poor consumer says off the record. Sinar/Jenoptik (and perhaps Leaf) OWN the Hy6 project, so they set the rules, not Phase and its customers.
leaf does not own the Hy6...rollei was working on it long before leaf or sinar were interested....
3. Sinar/Jenoptik and to some degree maybe Leaf own the Hy6 project, not Rollei. But don't let the facts get in the way.
sinar obviously does not care about marketshare at all...look at the M...
4. Yes, Sinar is in business primarily for the hell of it, and secondarily to sell cameras to Phase back owners. This is a very good business plan.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=102034\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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neither Sinar nor Leaf, nor even Rollei (read Franke & Heidecke) own the Hy6 project: it is Jenoptik
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=102061\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Is Jenoptik the owner of Sinar, Leaf or Rollei?
Regards
Danijela
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Dear Danijela,
Jenoptik Germany is owner of Sinar Switzerland.
Best regards,
Thierry
Is Jenoptik the owner of Sinar, Leaf or Rollei?
Regards
Danijela
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=102069\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Dear Danijela,
Jenoptik Germany is owner of Sinar Switzerland.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=102073\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
So the SINAR will Live, Thank you
Regards
Danijela