Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Ethan Schoonover on February 06, 2007, 04:34:11 am
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I thought it might be worth posting some of my experiences as I evaluate two MF systems. I'd also like to post this for Thierry from Sinar. The LL forum and Thierry's postings are the primary reason the Hy6 has remained on my radar and I think it would be useful to feedback on my thoughts, experiences, etc. in pursuing this product.
This is my first foray into full digital MF and I'd like to do it right. I'd welcome all feedback.
First up, my starting principles:
[span style=\'font-size:13pt;line-height:100%\']General Decision Making Axioms[/span]
- There is no perfect product. Pros/Cons to any choice.
- There will always be something better in 6 months
[span style=\'font-size:13pt;line-height:100%\']Decision Making Criteria:[/span]
- Image quality
- Workflow Integration
- Accessories availability, quality & variety
- Support & Supplier Responsiveness
[span style=\'font-size:13pt;line-height:100%\']Integrated instead of MFDB+Body[/span]
I started my eval process considering either piecemeal body & back purchase or integrated system (hy6, h3d, etc.). I'm not interested in sub 30MP backs due to print size requirements and the possible Canon 22 changing the game at that resolution. I've decided to explore integrated systems for a number of reasons, primarily:
- The repair pipeline: support of single system rather than multiple manufacturers/support processes
- Market shifts: market seems to be moving towards integrated systems and away from backs (as Thierry pointed out, bodys are there to sell backs, not the other way around)
- 2 years on: upgrade path seems clear and more secure with an integrated system (debatable: I welcome feedback)
Primarily, it's a business decision. What 30+ MP unit gets me the most quality with the greatest business security (reliability, repairs, etc.)...
Next, influences:
[span style=\'font-size:13pt;line-height:100%\']The influence of reviews and comments[/span]
Michael's initial H3D article really woke me up to the pitfalls of a closed system. That, combined with Thierry's excellent and helpful posts on this forum have kept me on the Hy6 side of the H3D/Hy6 debate for most of this period of consideration (until I started to contact suppliers).
A note: If Sinar doesn't already realize this, Thierry's comments are worth their weight in gold to Sinar. The lack of this direct community participation from Hasselblad has really give Sinar a boost in my evaluation process. It's taken some real difficulties with the local agent to counteract Thierry's initial good works. Sadly, they have.
So where I am now:
[span style=\'font-size:13pt;line-height:100%\']Decision Making Criteria[/span]
A summarized statement of decision making criteria (I have a spreadsheet on this process... this is a huge simplification).
- Image quality: Tie
I have no doubt that excellent images can be captured with both the Sinar version of the Hy6 and H3D. There has been a lot said on this already in the forums and I've read it all and have tested the H3D myself (and have reviewed emotion samples). I'm confident the quality is there for both backs/systems. - Workflow Integration: Tie
Will move to Lightroom from Aperture as will be able to get either raw or DNG into it from either back. - Accessories availability, quality & variety: Hy6
Clearly the variety of lenses will be better on the Hy6. This alone is a huge selling point. The back will change in a couple years. The body may or may not change with it. The lenses are sticking around across multiple generations of body/backs (if all goes well). - Support & Supplier Responsiveness: Hasselblad
I'm based in Hong Kong and the Hasselblad distributor here is incredibly supportive and proactive. Unfortunately Sinar's distributor is based in China and was initially difficult to get ahold of. Their local agent was significantly less than helpful when initially contacted. It's felt like pulling teeth to get local availability information from him. Sinar loses on this. No matter how good the product, it comes down to me buying something from a local dealer that I will need to turn to for information, support, repairs, etc.
[span style=\'font-size:13pt;line-height:100%\']A note on clarity and communication[/span]
There was an interesting post regarding customer decision making regarding the H system cameras here (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=14397&view=findpost&p=97545). I read it and thought then that Hasselblad's biggest advantage, and one that goes a long way to overcoming many of the concerns regarding a closed system, is their clarity of information (or more accurately: perceived clarity). The great thing for Sinar is that Thierry is out here in the forums busting his back to really give us all more information (or as my wife says, "more color") on the Sinar Hy6. The terrible thing is that this is so necessary. The Hy6 project is exciting, but information on it has been so scattered that it's been a struggle to find it. There was an excellent summary post by Thierry recently (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=14503&view=findpost&p=98274), but it felt like it could be turned into a nice flow chart (and he did the best job I can imagine summarizing all the various players in the project). The fact that the industry relationships are so convoluted and the communications so ad hoc regarding the product leaves me feeling that there is a lack of organization on the communication side of things. Communication does not equal product quality, but I have a strong suspicion that it correlates to general corporate organization, product support, customer support, etc.
Sinar and the Hy6 project have this incredible opportunity with this really unique level of excitement and interest from photographers that are looking to not just "buy a new camera" but really commit to a new system. Hasselblad knows exactly what to do with this opporunity: communicate aggressively and clearly through their whole corporate-to-dealer pipeline. Sinar has excellent communication in Thierry, acceptable (not stellar) communication on the Hy6 project in general (e.g. on their website, which has less info that the forums here at times), and very poor communication from the person I need to give a large wad of cash to.
[span style=\'font-size:13pt;line-height:100%\']Summary[/span]
Still deciding. I was initially really not interested in a Hasselblad due Michael's eloquently expressed concerns coupled with the good timing of the Hy6 project. I'm now at least 50/50 on this and Hasselblad's dealer has gone a long way to making me feel like, if I do go with an H3D instead of the Hy6, for all I lose in the "closed" system, I will gain a dependable and available partner in support.
Thierry, I've used your name a lot in this post. I want you to know that you are a super star in my book and I hope that the other industry players learn from the work you've done communicating to your market here on LL. If your commitment to clarity and information extended throughout Sinar and the Hy6 project, and had made its way down to the dealers, I probably wouldn't be writing this post. I'd already be signing on the dotted line. I'm hoping that this long winded post helps give some anecdotal information on what one prospective customer's experience has been like.
I'd love to see Sinar consolidate their information, simplify and clarify it where possible, start a blog or single point of reference for the Hy6 Project and the variants thereof (all the players in the Hy6 project have a vested interest in clear communication on this, so a single website with Hy6 information would make sense). I'd also like to see Sinar get better information packages to their dealers to ensure that customers get clear, accurate responses from them up front (and I don't have to keep sending them copy/paste information from your posts!).
In the spirit of helpfulness... -Ethan
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Interesting and thoughtful analysis; does the Hy6 even exist yet?
The H series has gone through several versions already, the kinks are worked out, and the only reason you question the H is because Michael said he doesn't like the closed system?
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Interesting and thoughtful analysis; does the Hy6 even exist yet?
The H series has gone through several versions already, the kinks are worked out, and the only reason you question the H is because Michael said he doesn't like the closed system?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99428\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Michael's post was the kick start of my exploring what limitations I might face with the H3D system. There's more information on the forums regarding this. It's not a deal killer or I wouldn't be considering the H3D at all, but they are valid points.
The Hy6 will be released in June 2007. I'd like to make the MF transition prior to that to work on specific commissioned projects. As you note, the H3D is indeed out already, which is an advantage. However the early purchase program for the Hy6 would mitigate that advantage by providing me with a functional digital MF platform until the Hy6 arrives.
(I'm looking at this as a 5 year minimum commitment to a platform, workflow, etc. More likely longer, so even though the Hy6 isn't released till June it's still a contender.)
The point about the H3 having gone through several revisions is a good one. This is a real advantage as well.
Also, I should also note that Thierry has been in touch on the dealer issues I posted above and has been very responsive and informative. Again, kudos for his proactive communication.
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Michael's post was the kick start of my exploring what limitations I might face with the H3D system. There's more information on the forums regarding this...[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99432\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
And they are? If you can provide links to them please, I am interested in reading about the H3D limitations listed in other posts.
I am neither defending Hasselblad nor trying to be confrontational, I'm just not sure of the validity of the negativity towards a "closed system."
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And they are? If you can provide links to them please, I am interesting in reading about the H3D limitations listed in other posts.
I am neither defending Hasselblad nor trying to be confrontational, I'm just not sure of the validity of the negativity towards a "closed system."
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=99434\")
Fair questions. I'd start with [a href=\"http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=12404]this thread[/url]. There are probably others, but this is the one I have bookmarked. It has points on both sides of the issue. I agree that being a closed system alone isn't necessarily a negative (though it may be, and should be evaluated case by case). Regardless, I tend to want everything as open as possible.
My personal decision making criteria (see the four listed above) do not include "open" or "closed" systems. The closed nature of the H3 at launch left a bad taste in my mouth and opened the door for my consideration of alternatives. While I prefer an open system (maximizes my options going forward) I understand the manufacturer's desire to maximize profitability per customer (which leads to closed systems). Basically, though, as long as my four criteria are met, I'll be (relatively) agnostic on this point.
For the most part, I'm trying examine the way in which the various forms of communication and information (the announcement of the "closed" H3, the very informative out reach from Thierry here, the excellent distributor program that Hasselblad runs, the lack of information and the confusion among the local Sinar distributors) have influenced me as a buyer.
I'd welcome further thoughts on this. Again, closed/open matters less to me than the four criteria.
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Michael's post was the kick start of my exploring what limitations I might face with the H3D system. There's more information on the forums regarding this. It's not a deal killer or I wouldn't be considering the H3D at all, but they are valid points.
The Hy6 will be released in June 2007. I'd like to make the MF transition prior to that to work on specific commissioned projects. As you note, the H3D is indeed out already, which is an advantage. However the early purchase program for the Hy6 would mitigate that advantage by providing me with a functional digital MF platform until the Hy6 arrives.
(I'm looking at this as a 5 year minimum commitment to a platform, workflow, etc. More likely longer, so even though the Hy6 isn't released till June it's still a contender.)
formative. Again, kudos for his proactive communication.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99432\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I commend the methodical way you are going about this, but to be candid, I think it's a VERY bad idea to buy into a Hy6 today by purchasing a Rollei 6008 with the promise of the Hy6 being delivered to you in June. The Hy6 does not exist today. It's a promise of what Jenoptic/Leaf/F&H intend to deliver in the future. They have not even shown a fully working sample of the camera. What if you don't like the way it handles. What if it's delayed/ What if there are material bugs in the firmware or the...or the...or the...? This is not Version 3 or 4 of the same basic camera/DB combination. If you can wait to kick the tires and let others be the early adopters with all the problems that usually entails and see how responsive Sinar is addressing these issues, great, wait and look carefully. Otherwise, don't fall into the trap of being a beta tester for Sinar.
BTW, how is it that a camera system that doesn't exist yet has a better selection of lenses and accessories than the H3D? My recollection is that there are now only 4 AF lenses for the Rollei system, 50, 80, 150 and 180.
Good luck.
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I commend the methodical way you are going about this, but to be candid, I think it's a VERY bad idea to buy into a Hy6 today by purchasing a Rollei 6008 with the promise of the Hy6 being delivered to you in June. The Hy6 does not exist today. It's a promise of what Jenoptic/Leaf/F&H intend to deliver in the future. They have not even shown a fully working sample of the camera. What if you don't like the way it handles. What if it's delayed/ What if there are material bugs in the firmware or the...or the...or the...? This is not Version 3 or 4 of the same basic camera/DB combination. If you can wait to kick the tires and let others be the early adopters with all the problems that usually entails and see how responsive Sinar is addressing these issues, great, wait and look carefully. Otherwise, don't fall into the trap of being a beta tester for Sinar.
BTW, how is it that a camera system that doesn't exist yet has a better selection of lenses and accessories than the H3D? My recollection is that there are now only 4 AF lenses for the Rollei system, 50, 80, 150 and 180.
Good luck.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99448\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
dear hcubell,
the beta-testing is taking place right now, while we are "speaking": it does not guaranty that there won't be any "bugs" anymore, but it has to be said.
concerning the AF lenses for the Hy6, here what is currently available:
Schneider AF S-Angulon 2.8/50 HFT PQS
Schneider AF Xenotar 2.8/80 PQS
Schneider AF Tele-Xenar 4/150 HFT-PQS
Schneider AF Tele-Xenar 2.8/180 PQ
Schneider AF Variogon 4.6/60-140 PQS
and here what is coming in September:
AFD Xenotar 2.8/80 PQS
AFD Super-Angulon 2.8/50 HFT PQS
AFD Tele-Xenar 4/150 HFT-PQS
AFD Tele-Xenar 2.8/180 PQ
AFD Variogon 4.6/60-140 PQS
AFD 35mm
AFD 120 Macro
thanks and best regards,
Thierry
Sinar AG Switzerland
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BTW, how is it that a camera system that doesn't exist yet has a better selection of lenses and accessories than the H3D? My recollection is that there are now only 4 AF lenses for the Rollei system, 50, 80, 150 and 180.
Good luck.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99448\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Because all the 6000 system lenses will be compatible with the hy6. Not only the AF lenses.
Samuel
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I find a couple of things very interesting....
It seems there were a lot of people very adamant that raw file formats should be open. There were petitions and protests and a lot of gnashing of teeth. We demand to keep controol of our work....Yet a closed system costing tens of thousands of dollars is met with open arms..."they can support it better"
Some things to consider...
In an integrated system, when one thing goes wrong the entire system is down. In a "mixed" system you can always go out and rent another body or back to get you through repair times and get the job done. Or even better yet, you can use multiple backs on the same body. There are times that you might need less resolution and more speed (or the reverse). Rent the appropriate back for the job and use your camera body that you're familiar with and comfortable using
As much as I'd love to see the Hy 6 system be successfull, the reality is that no one has yet seen one actually working. We have no idea what bugs may or may not show up....Just ask anyone that bought a Hasselblad H1 when they first came out.
I don't mean to bash any product, but if you're a full time working professional photographer I don't think you can afford to take a chance that you'll end up on a job with a digital system that has serious bugs in it. Unless of course you don't really mind losing that client.
Just my $0.02 worth....Canadian dollars at that.
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Ethan, your original post was nicely put! I share your thoughts about Thierry. He has been very helpful to me as well. I hope Sinar appreciates the value of his efforts.
The point about the H3 having gone through several revisions is a good one. This is a real advantage as well.
The Hy6 could be considered a revised 6008. It isn't a greenfield project.
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Ethan, your original post was nicely put! I share your thoughts about Thierry. He has been very helpful to me as well. I hope Sinar appreciates the value of his efforts.
The Hy6 could be considered a revised 6008. It isn't a greenfield project.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=99457\")
Graham, you're right. I still think (mistakenly) of the Hy6 as a new unit, but you're spot on regarding its pedigree in the 6008. This is the kind of thing that I'd love to see on a centralized Hy6 website, for example an FAQ question dealing with the "this isn't really a v1.0 product, it's an evolution of an established platform".
I mentioned it briefly above, but I think it worth noting that Thierry got back to me within 20 minutes of my posting and had detailed information regarding Asia/China distribution arrangements. He may be taking care of Asia for Sinar, but he's also handling online, which really can be considered an entire region in itself, at least as far as mark/comm is concerned. [a href=\"http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=props]Props to him[/url].
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Graham could be right. It seems like a redesigned 6008AF without the motor, different batteries and no need for any leads to sync the back with the camera. Judging by the images online, these improvements have made it smaller. That might mean that there will be room for another lens in my cabin luggage when I'm working abroad.
Good!
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As much as I'd love to see the Hy 6 system be successfull, the reality is that no one has yet seen one actually working. We have no idea what bugs may or may not show up....Just ask anyone that bought a Hasselblad H1 when they first came out.
I don't mean to bash any product, but if you're a full time working professional photographer I don't think you can afford to take a chance that you'll end up on a job with a digital system that has serious bugs in it. Unless of course you don't really mind losing that client.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99455\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well put. From my personal experience, Hasselblad has stood by their product and is a decent company to work with. I'm following this topic because I am heavily invested in H lenses (and very happy) and two H2s and sooner or later I will either upgrade them to H3Ds or purchase 3rd party backs.
It is great that you have the luxury of waiting 6 to 18 months for a new system. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and research too.
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Well put. From my personal experience, Hasselblad has stood by their product and is a decent company to work with. I'm following this topic because I am heavily invested in H lenses (and very happy) and two H2s and sooner or later I will either upgrade them to H3Ds or purchase 3rd party backs.
It is great that you have the luxury of waiting 6 to 18 months for a new system. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and research too.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99469\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Actually, I won't be waiting that long. If I go for the H3D, it's in hand in Q107. If I decide that the Hy6 is the best option, I will opt for the package with the 6008+eMotion back, and again in hand Q107.
The point in an above comment regarding not risking the job is noted, but I'm already prepared with alternate options. Indeed, many of my main concerns expressed to the dealers locally have centered around risk factors such as ensuring that loaner units will be available, etc.
Business continuity and contingency planning are always top of mind for me.
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dear hcubell,
the beta-testing is taking place right now, while we are "speaking": it does not guaranty that there won't be any "bugs" anymore, but it has to be said.
concerning the AF lenses for the Hy6, here what is currently available:
Schneider AF S-Angulon 2.8/50 HFT PQS
Schneider AF Xenotar 2.8/80 PQS
Schneider AF Tele-Xenar 4/150 HFT-PQS
Schneider AF Tele-Xenar 2.8/180 PQ
Schneider AF Variogon 4.6/60-140 PQS
and here what is coming in September:
AFD Xenotar 2.8/80 PQS
AFD Super-Angulon 2.8/50 HFT PQS
AFD Tele-Xenar 4/150 HFT-PQS
AFD Tele-Xenar 2.8/180 PQ
AFD Variogon 4.6/60-140 PQS
AFD 35mm
AFD 120 Macro
thanks and best regards,
Thierry
Sinar AG Switzerland
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99452\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thierry:
It appears that what are "forthcoming" in Sept. are two new prime lenses and digital versions of the same existing 4 AF prime lenses. Two questions. First, will Sinar offer refunds to everyone who buys a Hy6 expecting a 35mm or 120 macro prime if it is NOT available by Sept.? I know people who had full heads of hair when Mamiya started promising a 28mm lenses who are now bald. Second, could you please explain in more detail the functionality of the digital versions of these lenses? Also, will these be like the Hassy 28mm HCD that only works with an H3D(i.e., the new D lenses will only "work" with a Sinar or Leaf back that can "read" the digital coding info?).
Thanks.
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first: the Hy6 is a very logical step up from the 6008Af, it takes the lenses some backs and some accessories....as far as i know the H3 still has the freeze problem with the battery....the Hy6 V1 will probably be a more mature product then the h1 was....and i am sure there will some glitches with the Hy6
but that is not the point....
this is your first step into DMF? have you handled any MF camera before? there are several other systems out there, all of them handle very differently and MF handles VERY differently from SLR!!!
this is one of these posts that just leaves me scratching my head....an in-depth analysis of a system i haven't tried compared to a system that does not exist yet....great...a lot to learn from that...a great philosophical discussion? go out and play with a mamiya...take some pics...
how can any base their decision only on "what michael says"?
image quality is a tie? have you ever seen the quality? do you know how the schneider or zeiss lenses compare to the hass lenses? how the backs compare?
HOW THE SOFTWARE COMPARES? WORKFLOW?
there is no one system that is better then the others...number don't mean anything....there are only personal preferences and how willing someone is to put up with the shortcomings of the chosen system...
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I talked to Franke&Heidecke today on the phone. first about some service stuff for my 6008, then I asked about a true 6x6 back for the camera. They guy told me, they are working on one.
If this is true, the concept of the hy6 gets even better for me...
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I talked to Franke&Heidecke today on the phone. first about some service stuff for my 6008, then I asked about a true 6x6 back for the camera. They guy told me, they are working on one.
If this is true, the concept of the hy6 gets even better for me...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99494\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Was this a 6x6 film back? Or....
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Thierry,
I hope the forthcoming AF120Macro ISN'T of the current Zeiss formula (which I believe is optimized for 1/8th life-size reproduction).
I'd love it to be a true macro lens (with floating elements), and perhaps like Canon's 90mm TS-E or Nikon's 85mm PC Micro with some built-in tilt/rise movements.
Billy
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Thierry,
I hope the forthcoming AF120Macro ISN'T of the current Zeiss formula (which I believe is optimized for 1/8th life-size reproduction).
I'd love it to be a true macro lens (with floating elements), and perhaps like Canon's 90mm TS-E or Nikon's 85mm PC Micro with some built-in tilt/rise movements.
Billy
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99518\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
&
Thierry:
It appears that what are "forthcoming" in Sept. are two new prime lenses and digital versions of the same existing 4 AF prime lenses. Two questions. First, will Sinar offer refunds to everyone who buys a Hy6 expecting a 35mm or 120 macro prime if it is NOT available by Sept.? I know people who had full heads of hair when Mamiya started promising a 28mm lenses who are now bald. Second, could you please explain in more detail the functionality of the digital versions of these lenses? Also, will these be like the Hassy 28mm HCD that only works with an H3D(i.e., the new D lenses will only "work" with a Sinar or Leaf back that can "read" the digital coding info?).
Thanks.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99480\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
hi Billy, hi hcubell,
About the new AFD lenses which will be available for the Hy6: it will be possible to buy (order) them when available. Certain types, like the digital version of the existing ones certainly first, then the 35mm and the Macro 120mm. There is no time table for the last 2 models.
I was trying to give an information which s not longer confidential nor a secret, to give you an idea about what wil happen, and in order to inform correctly.
But all these lenses will be officially annouced and marketed when available: in the meantime, all the existing AF (and NON-AF) 6000 series lenses can be used, which is quite a good choice.
I beg for your understanding and patience for any further information and technical data of those new lenses: you can imagine that I haven't got it at this stage. It will however be communicated in due time, through myself here as usually, but also the normal way.
Thanks to all,
Thierry
Sinar AG Switzerland
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Was this a 6x6 film back? Or....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99497\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Or what? I don't get it.
In all the pictures up to now you see the 645 film back, but there will be a 6x6 film back later...
Okay, now, you where thinking 6x6 digital, hahahaha. They would have never told me that....
Regrds
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first: the Hy6 is a very logical step up from the 6008Af, it takes the lenses some backs and some accessories....as far as i know the H3 still has the freeze problem with the battery....the Hy6 V1 will probably be a more mature product then the h1 was....and i am sure there will some glitches with the Hy6
but that is not the point....
this is your first step into DMF? have you handled any MF camera before? there are several other systems out there, all of them handle very differently and MF handles VERY differently from SLR!!!
this is one of these posts that just leaves me scratching my head....an in-depth analysis of a system i haven't tried compared to a system that does not exist yet....great...a lot to learn from that...a great philosophical discussion? go out and play with a mamiya...take some pics...
how can any base their decision only on "what michael says"?
image quality is a tie? have you ever seen the quality? do you know how the schneider or zeiss lenses compare to the hass lenses? how the backs compare?
HOW THE SOFTWARE COMPARES? WORKFLOW?
there is no one system that is better then the others...number don't mean anything....there are only personal preferences and how willing someone is to put up with the shortcomings of the chosen system...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99488\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well, I definitely appreciate the concern you're showing, but not to worry. I have shot MF and have used MF digital previously. I have processed MF digital for other photogs as part of larger shoots and myself for smaller test runs.
And although I'm very confident in my own experience to date and my own adaptability, no matter how prepared or unprepared I am, things will always be different once I integrate a Sinar/Leaf/H3D into my daily production. There is always a learning curve that I'll have to climb, whether it's new hardware, new software, etc.
Regarding Michael, I'm certainly not basing this entire decision on his article, but it was without a doubt the post that woke me up to the issues of a closed system. That's one of the reasons I love reading LL, both the articles and this forum. Like any journalism or editorial publication, it's not there to outsource my own critical reasoning, but it does open my eyes to possibilities, information and opinion. I applaud Michael for what he's done with the site. It's an excellent resource.
Again, thanks for the concern and I hope this reassures you I'm not a complete loon.
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I talked to Franke&Heidecke today on the phone. first about some service stuff for my 6008, then I asked about a true 6x6 back for the camera. They guy told me, they are working on one.
If this is true, the concept of the hy6 gets even better for me...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99494\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I believe they announced a few months ago that the Hy6 would have a 6x6 film back and a 645 fim back (rotatable) with the motors in the film backs, to save on camera size and weight when being used for digital.
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I believe they announced a few months ago that the Hy6 would have a 6x6 film back and a 645 fim back (rotatable) with the motors in the film backs, to save on camera size and weight when being used for digital.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99577\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Absolutely true, Graham, thanks!
Thierry
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35mm There is no time table
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99528\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Surely the system is held back incredibly by a lack of 35mm if I understand clearly
Anyone considering this system should think about that unnanounced timescale big time
Think about making this lens..
This will be a problemo to make surely having to be retro focal enough to clear a 66 mirror - this is not a geometry that anyone has done before EVER
Blad only managed 35 with 645
Blad can only do a 28 for 645 times 0.9 (and one assume it is pretty wonky before correction)
Mamiya have been trying for YEARS to do 645 28
So what chance a 66 coverage 28 being in the pipeline that can clear a 66 mirror and has little enough distortion to be able to be used on film - very little I would imagine
And rollie cant do a 'DX' version becuse they still have to clear that catflap mirror and rely on the full coverage to provide both orientations
It becomes clear that blad may have been incredibly shrewd designing around the size of existant chips (bet the H4d has a smaller mirror and leads to an even wider lens)
Evaluatiing a 28mm system vs a 40mm system I know which system I would go for
And UK robertwhite lists the MF 40 at £2,485 ($5000?) so what will a 35 or even a 28 cost...
For people who need a decent wide surely may be trouble ahead on the HY6 front
Pure speculation I know but it has just become apparent to me that this system may be a bit useless as a general system until big chips hit home relying on switching to alpa for wide will marginalise the system IMO and a marginal system wont get the market share, rental stock and second hand rigs to buy from bankrupt wedding photographers - this wide thing could kill it right off - why didnt Jenoptic rise contax from the dead instead
Clearing that mirror is an extra 15mm of stress for thier designers that will surely make them lose many races
The solution could of coure be in a mirror up lense as was the case with super wide nikkors like the 8mm fish and a funky viewfinder on the flashmount
SMM
Shame the blad goons locked my out of the 28 - it wont make me buy thier back but it does lose them the revenue of selling me one
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Surely the system is held back incredibly by a lack of 35mm if I understand clearly
Anyone considering this system should think about that unnanounced timescale big time
Think about making this lens..
This will be a problemo to make surely having to be retro focal enough to clear a 66 mirror - this is not a geometry that anyone has done before EVER
Blad only managed 35 with 645
Blad can only do a 28 for 645 times 0.9 (and one assume it is pretty wonky before correction)
Mamiya have been trying for YEARS to do 645 28
So what chance a 66 coverage 28 being in the pipeline that can clear a 66 mirror and has little enough distortion to be able to be used on film - very little I would imagine
And rollie cant do a 'DX' version becuse they still have to clear that catflap mirror and rely on the full coverage to provide both orientations
It becomes clear that blad may have been incredibly shrewd designing around the size of existant chips (bet the H4d has a smaller mirror and leads to an even wider lens)
Evaluatiing a 28mm system vs a 40mm system I know which system I would go for
And UK robertwhite lists the MF 40 at £2,485 ($5000?) so what will a 35 or even a 28 cost...
For people who need a decent wide surely may be trouble ahead on the HY6 front
Pure speculation I know but it has just become apparent to me that this system may be a bit useless as a general system until big chips hit home relying on switching to alpa for wide will marginalise the system IMO
Clearing that mirror is an extra 15mm of stress for thier designers that will surely make them lose many races
The solution could of coure be in a mirror up lense as was the case with super wide nikkors like the 8mm fish and a funky viewfinder on the flashmount
SMM
Shame the blad goons locked my out of the 28 - it wont make me buy thier back but it does lose them the revenue of selling me one
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99583\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Dear Morgan,
I am not a lens specialist and cannot speak here, and you are probably right with the difficulty of such a task, to build a new 35mm covering 6x6.
However, I would like to remind that the Hy6 project, with all the planed new lenses and accessories has not just started during the last Photokina, when we annouced it: it is a project having matured since years.
Although there is no precise timetable for the release of such a 35mm AFD, I have total trust in our product manager, when he tells me that it will be shortly released after the release of all the other lenses mentioned, whatever shortly means.
However, one can never predict the problems in advance. And I also hope that you won't put me at the point of your gun in the future!
Best regards,
Thierry
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Although there is no precise timetable for the release of such a 35mm AFD
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99584\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
But blad will sell you a 28 TODAY and you guys dont even list it at a futre possiblilty
My concern (for you guys) is that many buyers particularly in the middle ground who wont consider a second solution for wide will just go blad and make the system ubiqutos (sp?)
Those middle ground guys (wedding portrait etc) are the ones who buy a LOT of kit
They are the same guys who provide me with second hand gear as they change every week
Its like canon V nikon - I wouldnt touch Nikon now without FF even though nikon are good for 95% real life situations - 95% is not good enough
( I am heavily invested in nikon and constantly frustated by thier tinky litlte chip that has ruined my lenses)
The Sinar M was suited for 90% of my uses but the 60th flash synch made it no go for 10% of them
Hassy hits home 100% then and 100% now
Wide lense decent flash synch and passable AF - the only things that matter?
even though I dont like my blad (for some reason - maybe the colour!) it is still the business tool for me and will remain that way
Sinars 'system' seems a right mess- you have a pile of different lens systems and two nearly ran MF bodies
The P3 should run seamlessly into the HY6 and you should be able to use HY6 lenses on the P3 - they have the image circle for movements on a 645 (x .9) chip at least they must do they cover 66 thats 15mm of unsued rise
I could accept a lack of wide on the mirror bit of the system if it were a system
I would jump to a system that offered super wide and movements (like the P3) and leaf flash synch and for longer lenses offered the convieniece of 'mirror' shooting - did you get the rights to the Xact too .. will HY6 lenses work with that
SMM
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And UK robertwhite lists the MF 40 at £2,485 ($5000?) so what will a 35 or even a 28 cost...
It's a stunning lens, btw.
For people who need a decent wide surely may be trouble ahead on the HY6 front
Yes and no. Your point regarding the technical difficulties can't be faulted, but if you need really wide angles there is a simple solution.
The digital back can be put on one of many view cameras and used in conjunction with 24mm, 28mm or 35mm lenses.
Advantages:
- the image quality of these Rodenstock/Schneider Digitar lenses is superb
- you can go WIDER than any MF lens
- you also have tilt/shift possibilities, which is more useful to any architectural photographers anyway
- this solution is already on the shelf
Result: no-one will be 'stuck'. This is what I plan to do to cover the ultra-wide end. Since when did any camera "do it all" anyway?
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But blad will sell you a 28 TODAY and you guys dont even list it at a futre possiblilty
My concern (for you guys) is that many buyers particularly in the middle ground who wont consider a second solution for wide will just go blad and make the system ubiqutos (sp?)
Those middle ground guys (wedding portrait etc) are the ones who buy a LOT of kit
They are the same guys who provide me with second hand gear as they change every week
Its like canon V nikon - I wouldnt touch Nikon now without FF even though nikon are good for 95% real life situations - 95% is not good enough
( I am heavily invested in nikon and constantly frustated by thier tinky litlte chip that has ruined my lenses)
The Sinar M was suited for 90% of my uses but the 60th flash synch made it no go for 10% of them
Hassy hits home 100% then and 100% now
Wide lense decent flash synch and passable AF - the only things that matter?
even though I dont like my blad (for some reason - maybe the colour!) it is still the business tool for me and will remain that way
Sinars 'system' seems a right mess- you have a pile of different lens systems and two nearly ran MF bodies
The P3 should run seamlessly into the HY6 and you should be able to use HY6 lenses on the P3 - they have the image circle for movements on a 645 (x .9) chip at least they must do they cover 66 thats 15mm of unsued rise
I could accept a lack of wide on the mirror bit of the system if it were a system
SMM
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99591\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
hi again, Morgan (or Sam?),
Right, we don't have all now and don't pretend to have it all: we have 2 hands, like any others, and doing our best to satisfy as many photographers as possible.
Our P3 does not integrate the Hy 6 lenses: it is a good idea, and nobody has said that it won't be the case in the future. But again, we have 2 hands! We never start 2 or 3 projects at the same time, rather one after the other, to avoid the mess you are speaking about.
Now, the future will certainly tell, but be assured that we are commited to our product(s) and always pushing our limits to reach the best possible for our customers.
Best regards,
Thierry
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Sam,
the Rollei X-Act2 has the facility to use the Rollei lens range.
Regards,
Willem.
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Hassy hits home 100% then and 100% now
Well no camera ever hits 100%. Hass has a more limited range of lenses, which are slower then Rollie and have slower flash sync. For a long time they had no viewfinder options (is the WLF available yet?). The 28mm is the one ace up their sleeve, but not everyone needs a 28mm. Their bodies still lock up, and the 50-110mm lenses fall apart.
Definitely not a 100% camera. If it were, why would anyone buy anything else?
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It's a stunning lens, btw.
Yes and no. Your point regarding the technical difficulties can't be faulted, but if you need really wide angles there is a simple solution.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99593\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Doing a group shot at a wedding a bellows camera is not a simple solution
Shooting rowers rowing thier boat a bellows camera is not a simple solution
- the image quality of these Rodenstock/Schneider Digitar lenses is superb
- you can go WIDER than any MF lens
- you also have tilt/shift possibilities, which is more useful to any architectural photographers anyway
- this solution is already on the shelf
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99593\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I know all about these lenses but there is no walkaround body that makes them useable - I just dont believe the junk ALPA spread about being able to guess focus (hand held close and at f4)
and cocking the shutter a bit 1880s too and all tha cables of electronic shutters is a bit 1990s
The HY6 would be highly attactive offered in conjunction with a rise fall mamia 7 style wide solution - but there isnt one
Since when did any camera "do it all" anyway?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99593\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Canon eos1 and film 14 2.8 -> 600 f4
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Doing a group shot at a wedding a bellows camera is not a simple solution
Does this look hard to handle? Each to their own I suppose
No camera has it all.
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I don't think the Hy6 came about to copy the H1 series.
From what I've been told,the Hy6 is going to be a camera made in Germany with
a modern German auto-focus lens system,however staying with the traditional 6x6 format.
The idea of a digiback that can rotate sounds great to me.
At I don't have to put the camera on it's side.
A lot of photographers don't like having to hold a camera (Mamiya, H1) on it's side.
Also there are a lot of shooters that still might like to use film,couple with the latest technology
and lenses.
Myself,I went the eMotion-75 route with the Gottschalt Ds-30 and Rodenstock HR lenses(28,35,60+100 HR)
When the Hy6 comes out I'll be getting a 50,80 and 150 lens selection for that.
It's an expensive time for some of us.
Cheers,
Willem.
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Definitely not a 100% camera. If it were, why would anyone buy anything else?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99598\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I am not sure that persons starting from scratch will buy anything else !
Just like if I were starting from scratch in 35mm I would nt buy anything but canon
You are right the blad is severely limited particularly in the rise fall stakes and lense speed range cost look
And the 28 and future lenses wont work with my back (or yours) - hense my interest in a route 'out' of blad
I think that until a decent leica or mamiya7 type camera comes available to sort wide issues the blad will however remain the king system of leaf lenses with decent flash synch
SMM
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Does this look hard to handle? Each to their own I suppose
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99602\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes for the attached image it looks very hard to handle !
(canon) Not great resolution or colour. Slowish flash sync. Only a few good lenses. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99602\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I within the limits of 35 canon film (less wide issues) did have it all
--------------------
And a further thought : the need for a system that does 'everything' is far stronger now in the digital age
considering the costs I used to happily run 35mm and 645 systems and for only a few hundered $ could have gone 45 too
What I cant afford is two backs
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Myself,I went the eMotion-75 route with the Gottschalt Ds-30 and Rodenstock HR lenses(28,35,60+100 HR)
When the Hy6 comes out I'll be getting a 50,80 and 150 lens selection for that.
It's an expensive time for some of us.
Cheers,
Willem.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99603\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
And doesnt that make you angry ??
Knowing
you will have spent $000s on nearly duplicate focal lenght glass
That you own glass with a big enough image circle for rise and fall that you cant use on you view cam
I wouldnt own that duplication of glass on principal almost !
Your mate at gottchalt could save the day - get hy6 lenses working on his view camera
If your buddy with a CNC machine in his garage can do it why not the global might of jenoptic and sinar
The reason 'cos they dont talk to enough photographers. At least Thiery is here now - a start
It just saddens me all the R+D in the M and does anyone use it ??
All the time wasted on R+D, TTL flash and metering, useless centerpoint AF and countless other rubbish bits of electronics - havent these people heard of a histogram and looking at the screen or even through a nice bright viewfinder
All a camera is a a box to hold the lens in the right place in relation to the recording medium - preaferably with a mirror to see eactly what you are getting
We need one box with a mirror for 40 + lenses
And another box without a mirror for wides and rise fall but another realistic way of focusing and composing
Our lenses need to fit both boxes
The second box is missing
Until Sinar bring us the second box I think the blad will be the best single box to own and most important I think 1000s of others will agree
IMO There is space in the market for
canon : cheap one box
hassy : quality one box
sinar : qualiy two box solution with ultra wide, and rise capablilty
SMM
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Morgan, have you looked at the Rollei X-ACT? It takes 6000 series lenses and puts them on a view camera. Seems to be what you are wishing for?
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Morgan, have you looked at the Rollei X-ACT? It takes 6000 series lenses and puts them on a view camera. Seems to be what you are wishing for?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99608\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think it a good solution for some
who makes owns it ??
spares distributors service??
Trouble is I want hand held
I want to be able to focus fast and accurate
I want phisical robustness that I can throw in my bag or have on my other shoulder if I could ever afford a second back
And inceidentally I already own a sinar view camera and sinar back and sinar have been trupeting about compatability since 1938 or whatever and they seem to have three sets of lenses on the go all at mega bucks and I need to buy a view camera from someone else - crazy
SMM
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Blad only managed 35 with 645
Blad can only do a 28 for 645 times 0.9 (and one assume it is pretty wonky before correction)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99583\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The verdict on other forums are that the blad 28 is wonky before and ok/great after correction. My question now is, if blad needs DxO style software (DAC 1 & 2 in flexcolor) to correct this piece of glass... will sinar/leaf/rollei need this type of software to correct a 35 for a 6x6 mirror? And if so, how far have they come on the "software side of optics."
Hass has a more limited range of lenses, which are slower then Rollie and have slower flash sync.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99598\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You can use V-series lenses on the H-sys. albeit it does turn the electronic wündercam into a cludgy mechanical thing of the past... And yes, they are slower on both speed and sync
For a long time they had no viewfinder options (is the WLF available yet?).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99598\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
They started delivery last week here in Norway, my dealer recieved five, and Im number 6 on the list (got my ImageBank though! Cool to be able to shoot untethered with the Linhof, but I havent got around to testing it thoroughly yet.)
The 28mm is the one ace up their sleeve, but not everyone needs a 28mm. Their bodies still lock up, and the 50-110mm lenses fall apart.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99598\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The rumoured shift/tilt lens from blad could be a killer if they get the DAC function in FlexColor to function with it. Two main dealers I have spoken to confirm it as being around the corner, but Hasselblad is as always silent on future releases. This piece of glass could also be an ace up their sleeve, if they get it right that is....
-axel
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Sam/Morgan, you want a view camera with movements AND you want to use it handheld? That doesn't make much sense to me.
Anyway, here's an image of the Rollei X-ACT.
(http://www.academicimaging.com/tech/diginput/cameras/rollei/xacto.3.jpg)
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The rumoured shift/tilt lens from blad could be a killer if they get the DAC function in FlexColor to function with it. Two main dealers I have spoken to confirm it as being around the corner, but Hasselblad is as always silent on future releases. This piece of glass could also be an ace up their sleeve, if they get it right that is....
-axel
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99611\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
If is is a 47 and work with the 1.7 converter it will be cover many bases interior and product
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The rumoured shift/tilt lens from blad could be a killer if they get the DAC function in FlexColor to function with it. Two main dealers I have spoken to confirm it as being around the corner, but Hasselblad is as always silent on future releases. This piece of glass could also be an ace up their sleeve, if they get it right that is....
Sounds interesting, but there is already a T/S lens for the Rollei/Hy6
(http://www.adorama.com/images/Product/RL5545.jpg)
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Sam/Morgan, you want a view camera with movements AND you want to use it handheld? That doesn't make much sense to me.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99612\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Why not.
I understand tilt is hard to do off a tripod
But I use my 28 pc with my SLRn no worries
People use 24s and 80s on their SLRs all the time
Once you get into using a bit of rise it feels so restrictuve without it - even for portraits
Fixed lense photography is only half of the game IMO
The HY6 could have had a 'killer' 15mm of rise/fall with all existing lenses
I also want mega wide and I dont think the HY6 can progress in that diection
Have to do some work now ...
p.s what is that lens has it been mentioned before is it still made serviced available?
SMM
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To all making this tread so interesting,
My godness! This is a lot of work ahead for us, to get everybody satisfied, but what a fantastic task for all of us at Sinar.
Be sure that our R&D team is more than often holding cameras with their own hands and running shootings by their own, to get the "feeling" of a photographer. We use to run even LF Worshops for our new employees joining the company, to give them a sense of this particular field of photography.
Be sure also that all your comments/wishes and even dreams are duly forwarded to the right persons.
The question thereafter is the technical feasibility (often feasible) and the commercial feasibility. For the last point one has to consider many factors: human ressources, other projects running, timeframe, costs and last but not least, returns and possibilities to sell it to cover all the costs at the very least, and the necessary marketing involved to get a chance.
Here and as an example, a project like developping a new camera with movements, based on older models, costs alone a few 1000 hours manpower and some 1 million Euros +++. I do not speak about the costs of a MF camera which should have it all, satisfying any need of everybody.
As said your wishes have been forwarded. In french we are used to say "Qui vivra verra!"
All the best to all,
Thierry
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I really love these Rollei lenses. Here's my first test of the 1.4x teleconverter on the 180mm f2.8 lens, at f2.8, taken today in -10'C. By the way, I am using a terrible RAW converter to see my pics quickly without a Mac, so don't judge noise and colour.
quick test shot:
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&
hi Billy, hi hcubell,
About the new AFD lenses which will be available for the Hy6: it will be possible to buy (order) them when available. Certain types, like the digital version of the existing ones certainly first, then the 35mm and the Macro 120mm. There is no time table for the last 2 models.
Thanks to all,
Thierry
Sinar AG Switzerland
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99528\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Your earlier post said that the new 35mm and 120 macro lenses would be available in September(2007, I assumed). Is there no actual promised delivery date?
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Your earlier post said that the new 35mm and 120 macro lenses would be available in September(2007, I assumed). Is there no actual promised delivery date?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99637\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
hi,
sorry if I have explained myself the wrong way: 2.8/80; 2.8/50; 4/150; 2.8/180 & 4.6/60-140 AFD's are planed for September '07, the 35mm to follow, and then the 120 Macro. I have no other or more precise timing for the time being.
Best regards,
Thierry
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I really love these Rollei lenses. Here's my first test of the 1.4x teleconverter on the 180mm f2.8 lens, at f2.8, taken today in -10'C. By the way, I am using a terrible RAW converter to see my pics quickly without a Mac, so don't judge noise and colour.
100% crop:
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99635\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Very Interesting 100% crop Graham, I have a few questions for you:
Tell me what are all these small white spots ?
Are highlights are blown in the white sweater ?
In the top right side of the image I see a strange pattern in the blacks ?
Is this color moiré on the bottom right ?
I hope this is your RAW converter and not the Sinar eMotion back
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To all making this tread so interesting,
My godness! This is a lot of work ahead for us, to get everybody satisfied, but what a fantastic task for all of us at Sinar.
All the best to all,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99617\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thierry,
As we all know Sinar and Rollei have formed an alliance. Can we hope that we will be able to use Rollei MF lenses on a P3 ? I am hearing that X-Act 2 was discontinued and an adaptation of Rollei lens adapter and a (new) lens control may be logical. I understand that CMV lenses are better then my 6008 glass, just wanted to utilize my lens collection and save some money .
Thanks,
Yevgeny
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Very Interesting 100% crop Graham, I have a few questions for you:
Tell me what are all these small white spots ?
Are highlights are blown in the white sweater ?
In the top right side of the image I see a strange pattern in the blacks ?
Is this color moiré on the bottom right ?
I hope this is your RAW converter and not the Sinar eMotion back
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99656\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi Toby, I prefaced that post with the following comment: "I am using a terrible RAW converter to see my pics quickly without a Mac, so don't judge noise and colour."
I don't know how to make it more clear. I am using a 'hack' to quickly process my files on my PC. It does a terrible job compared to Capture Shop on a Mac. For one thing it reduces the image to something like 6-bit from 16-bit! I just use it to preview files at full res, and then process them properly when I get access to a Mac. I am working on getting a Mac of my own.
Btw, those white spots are highlights on tiny drops of water.
These files are clearly no indication of the Sinarback quality. When I have time I will post the difference and you will sigh with relief
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what raw converter you use? can he read the files on a pc from the back?
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what raw converter you use? can he read the files on a pc from the back?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99679\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
On the PC, I use DCRaw. It is command line based, so I use a GUI called RawDrop as the user interface. It's all free to download but I can't recommend it for the eMotion backs. There seems to be some problems with the implementation.
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On the PC, I use DCRaw. It is command line based, so I use a GUI called RawDrop as the user interface. It's all free to download but I can't recommend it for the eMotion backs. There seems to be some problems with the implementation.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99682\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi Graham
As a photo editor I am use to dealing with files from a lot of different MFD backs
What I see in your 100% file crop and pointed out is quite common seen on e22 and e75 Sinar backs. So I wish you the best of luck with other RAW development options.
In my opinion
Leaf and Phase rocks
Hasselblad so so
Sinar comes in as no. 4
And to Ethan – you should first try out different backs and decide witch one you like, then choose a camera system, not the other way around.
You will be surprised how different the 4 brands of backs perform.
In my opinion a Leaf or Phase back on a Hasselblad / Mamiya / Contax system will easily outperform a Sinar back on a Hy6 even with Schneider lenses…..
Good luck with your choice – but very important TEST for you self before buying.
Toby
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Hi Graham
As a photo editor I am use to dealing with files from a lot of different MFD backs
What I see in your 100% file crop and pointed out is quite common seen on e22 and e75 Sinar backs. So I wish you the best of luck with other RAW development options.
In my opinion
Leaf and Phase rocks
Hasselblad so so
Sinar comes in as no. 4
And to Ethan – you should first try out different backs and decide witch one you like, then choose a camera system, not the other way around.
You will be surprised how different the 4 brands of backs perform.
In my opinion a Leaf or Phase back on a Hasselblad / Mamiya / Contax system will easily outperform a Sinar back on a Hy6 even with Schneider lenses…..
Good luck with your choice – but very important TEST for you self before buying.
Toby
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99701\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Toby1014 is right. It's good to test before buying.
That's why I now have 3 Rollei 6008 bodies, 9 Rollei lenses and an eMotion 22.
For me, better than the others.
They produce very nice images for LP covers by the way...
Carl
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Hi Graham
As a photo editor I am use to dealing with files from a lot of different MFD backs
What I see in your 100% file crop and pointed out is quite common seen on e22 and e75 Sinar backs. So I wish you the best of luck with other RAW development options.
In my opinion
Leaf and Phase rocks
Hasselblad so so
Sinar comes in as no. 4
And to Ethan – you should first try out different backs and decide witch one you like, then choose a camera system, not the other way around.
You will be surprised how different the 4 brands of backs perform.
In my opinion a Leaf or Phase back on a Hasselblad / Mamiya / Contax system will easily outperform a Sinar back on a Hy6 even with Schneider lenses…..
Good luck with your choice – but very important TEST for you self before buying.
Toby
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99701\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
my comparisions showd more the opposite........
i.m.o. there is no general rule and you simply cant make a hundred meter race between the different backs cause there is no winner or looser......
at first phase and imacon backs deliver a closed match for sharing the same sensors ( maybee different with the announced new phase chips...). for many purposes ( a.e. fashion work ) they are great backs. which of them you might prefer will come down very much to the software and how good you know to use it, sure not for Resolution differences.....
no problems with long exposures with the kodak sensor,- the dalsa is hardly exceeding 30 - 50 seconds exp. time.
for architecture or any shift or scheimpflug camera i would prefer leaf or sinar with dalsa sensors,- although the differece in some way s reduced cause the 33 dalsa chip is not longer so forgiving for different light entrys with shifted lenses. but the shifts are still much milder than the kodak chips are showing.
here sinar would be my 1. choice, simply cause leaf hasnt found a real solution of some drawbacks with the 33mp sensor.
resolutionwise leaf and sinar will be very very close, so in terms of noise for using the same sensors. big difference is the workflow and how "mature" the actual chips of them are.
that you would say a phase back would outresolve a sinar back " even with schneider lenses " i would put in the category unqualified comment. cant say anything other about statements as that.
there remains a third category:
multishot backs. here are imacon and sinar the onliest who offer that. both will be great in 4 shot mode. sinar is the onliest which offer ( in the 54h ) 16 shot back. no competitor here... so no number 1. or 2.
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my comparisions showd more the opposite........
i.m.o. there is no general rule and you simply cant make a hundred meter race between the different backs cause there is no winner or looser......
at first phase and imacon backs deliver a closed match for sharing the same sensors ( maybee different with the announced new phase chips...). for many purposes ( a.e. fashion work ) they are great backs. which of them you might prefer will come down very much to the software and how good you know to use it, sure not for Resolution differences.....
no problems with long exposures with the kodak sensor,- the dalsa is hardly exceeding 30 - 50 seconds exp. time.
for architecture or any shift or scheimpflug camera i would prefer leaf or sinar with dalsa sensors,- although the differece in some way s reduced cause the 33 dalsa chip is not longer so forgiving for different light entrys with shifted lenses. but the shifts are still much milder than the kodak chips are showing.
here sinar would be my 1. choice, simply cause leaf hasnt found a real solution of some drawbacks with the 33mp sensor.
resolutionwise leaf and sinar will be very very close, so in terms of noise for using the same sensors. big difference is the workflow and how "mature" the actual chips of them are.
that you would say a phase back would outresolve a sinar back " even with schneider lenses " i would put in the category unqualified comment. cant say anything other about statements as that.
there remains a third category:
multishot backs. here are imacon and sinar the onliest who offer that. both will be great in 4 shot mode. sinar is the onliest which offer ( in the 54h ) 16 shot back. no competitor here... so no number 1. or 2.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=99712\")
Well Rainer I will have to disagree here.
There seem to be a common mistake on this forum, that all backs deliver more or less the same quality files (when you get to know the software well) and that the real different is the Camera and lenses used. (And in workflow).
I strongly recommend all photographers who want to get into MFD photography to test and try out different backs and decide for your self.
You will be surprised by the difference in file quality between a Hasselblad 39 back and a Phase P45 back (same sensor) on a side by side shoot with the same camera and lens. This is also the case between Leaf A75 and Sinar e75.
The difference in my opinion is much larger than the difference in lens quality from Schneider glass to Hasselblad/Fuji to Contax to Mamyia glass.
Regarding Architectural photography – [a href=\"http://www.timgriffith.com/]Here[/url] is a award winning photographer who is shooting with Phase One back
My two cents: Get the back you want first then go for a camera system.
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Regarding Architectural photography – Here (http://www.timgriffith.com/) is a award winning photographer who is shooting with Phase One back
My two cents: Get the back you want first then go for a camera system.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99714\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
i agree in testing the backs, i disagree in the file quality order you make. so my 1:1 comparisons i have done show the opposite than yours in case of sinar and leaf, i usually dont do other things than architecture and with the last 22mp generation of backs the miss of color shifts has been my 1. reason to go for the dalsa sensor, after that i thought if go with leaf or with sinar,- i have collected much experience with kodak sensorsbefore ( which have not changed their design in this aspect ) to know what it means a.e. to stitch images which are corrected with inverted files as the lcc workflow provides.
ofcourse tim griffith is a very good photographer and i like his work, but what the hell you want to say with your statement?.....
about awards: i dont have won any award ,- at first because i never have sent in any work to any photo price or competition ( i am not saying that i would have won if i would have participated, i dont have any idea about )..... but i have to tell you also that i shoot with sinar backs and i do huge projects for several very famous clients.... projects i have shot have won many awards and prices in every of the last years, my clients have been used herefor the photos i have made,- with 4x5", canons 1ds and kodak slr cameras, with roundshot film cameras, and with 22+33mp backs ( from sinar ).
further you can be sure that tim griffith would win his awards also if he would use sinar backs, or imacon or leaf backs or 4x5" film ( or whatever ).....
its usually the photographer who makes great photos,- not his back.
i disagree also about the lenses:
a well corrected (nearly ) symmetric lense as the sinar/ rodenstock 35HR is for my work an absolute other thing than a bad corrected unsymmetric wideangle than a.e. the mamiya 35mm which gets unsharp 20mm away from the center if not stopped down very much and shows 2 or 3% of moustache form distortion, aside from clear visible green-magenta CA at the edges. i would prefere by far to work with the rodenstock lense with ANY 17mp chip ( although the chips have been too little- so i would have to use a 28HR or 24xl,- but i just want to give an example ) than to use ANY of the 30,33 or 39mp backs together with the bad lense.
but again: whats for me a bad lense ( distortion,- unsharp edges ) might be for other purposes absolute ok, whats a good lense for my work ( symmetric lenses , probably with a copal shutter .... ) will be simply unusuable for fashion shots, independent which back you put behind the lense.
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I agree Toby. That's why I've got a Sinar.
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but toby, i just saw that you have made 4 posts at all here in LL, and you dont use your real name.
i would be interested who YOU are,- tim i already know.
you have a webpage? or a real-life name?
if so.... maybe you could introduce yourself a little bit and show some of YOUR work or of YOUR reputations, what you think about that?
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i agree in testing the backs, i disagree in the file quality order you make. so my 1:1 comparisons i have done show the opposite than yours in case of sinar and leaf, i usually dont do other things than architecture and with the last 22mp generation of backs the miss of color shifts has been my 1. reason to go for the dalsa sensor, after that i thought if go with leaf or with sinar,- i have collected much experience with kodak sensorsbefore ( which have not changed their design in this aspect ) to know what it means a.e. to stitch images which are corrected with inverted files as the lcc workflow provides.
ofcourse tim griffith is a very good photographer and i like his work, but what the hell you want to say with your statement?.....
about awards: i dont have won any award ,- at first because i never have sent in any work to any photo price or competition ( i am not saying that i would have won if i would have participated, i dont have any idea about )..... but i have to tell you also that i shoot with sinar backs and i do huge projects for several very famous clients.... projects i have shot have won many awards and prices in every of the last years, my clients have been used herefor the photos i have made,- with 4x5", canons 1ds and kodak slr cameras, with roundshot film cameras, and with 22+33mp backs ( from sinar ).
further you can be sure that tim griffith would win his awards also if he would use sinar backs, or imacon or leaf backs or 4x5" film ( or whatever ).....
its usually the photographer who makes great photos,- not his back.
i disagree also about the lenses:
a well corrected (nearly ) symmetric lense as the sinar/ rodenstock 35HR is for my work an absolute other thing than a bad corrected unsymmetric wideangle than a.e. the mamiya 35mm which gets unsharp 20mm away from the center if not stopped down very much and shows 2 or 3% of moustache form distortion, aside from clear visible green-magenta CA at the edges. i would prefere by far to work with that lense with ANY 17mp chip ( although they are to little,- but just to give you an example ) than to use ANY of the 30,33 or 39mp backs together with a bad lense.
but again: whats for me a bad lense ( distortion,- unsharp edges ) might be for other purposes absolute ok, whats a good lense for my work ( symmetric lenses , probably with a copal shutter .... ) will be simply unusuable for fashion shots, independent which back you put behind the lense.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99719\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Rainer, I can see you are a very skilled architectural photographer – but you were the one mentioning the Sinar-Dalsa solution for architectural work. My Statement with Mr. Tim Griffith is that other good architectural photographers chose Phase-Kodak and makes wonderful work.
I really don’t rally for one specific back brand (as you do) but just state that it is a common mistake on this forum to think that there is little difference in image quality between backs.
If all backs performed more or less the same, then why does Hasselblad not have a higher marked share with their very good H3D and 28mm option ? I think there are more Phase and Leaf back on Hasselblad cameras than Hasselblad backs !
To all photographers: As photo editor I do see a lot of (RAW) files from different backs – and I can tell you that there is a bigger difference in image quality than you would imagine. (As a reference point for 35mm users: I think there is very little difference between Nikon D2X and Canon 5D)
Go and test for your self, don’t believe my ranking or Rainers comments but see for your self.
Carl, I am happy that you are in love with your e22, no time for you to be unfaithful with other backs yet.
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Carl, I am happy that you are in love with your e22, no time for you to be unfaithful with other backs yet.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99727\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
But I am unfaithful. I got rid of a Phase/Hasselblad combination.
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but toby, i just saw that you have made 4 posts at all here in LL, and you dont use your real name.
i would be interested who YOU are,- tim i already know.
you have a webpage? or a real-life name?
if so.... maybe you could introduce yourself a little bit and show some of YOUR work or of YOUR reputations, what you think about that?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=99726\")
I wouldn't hold your breathe. Seems like a classic '[a href=\"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll]Internet Troll[/url]' to me.
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Rainer, I can see you are a very skilled architectural photographer – but you were the one mentioning the Sinar-Dalsa solution for architectural work. My Statement with Mr. Tim Griffith is that other good architectural photographers chose Phase-Kodak and makes wonderful work.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99727\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
ofcourse there are differences between the backs, i never said the opposite.
i think the differences even are big,- esp. in terms of workflow, drawbacks and system integration.
not so big in terms of final image quality in skilled hands,- but the workflow to reach the final image might be very different and very time consumptive in one case or much more easy in another. this counts a lot if you work professional.
but as i said before,- a skilled photographer will deliver great results with any of the existing backs. and i tell you that the file quality in my shots will not vary visible if i use different backs for my photos, at least not in a way that this would become visible for any editor ,- if i dont tell him how i made the shots.
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I wouldn't hold your breathe. Seems like a classic 'Internet Troll (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll)' to me.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99735\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Running low on arguments Graham, doesn’t seem like you when you are promoting the Hy6 and e22.
I guess you ran your image through Sinar Capture Shop and still got the same result.
BTW there are good and bad trolls – I am a good one trying to help new MFD photographers to make their own test and decide for them self, not promoting a special brand of back. Witch kind of troll are you ?
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But I am unfaithful. I got rid of a Phase/Hasselblad combination.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99732\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You know - love can make you do crazy things
Enjoy
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Running low on arguments Graham, doesn’t seem like you when you are promoting the Hy6 and e22.
I guess you ran your image through Sinar Capture Shop and still got the same result.
BTW there are good and bad trolls – I am a good one trying to help new MFD photographers to make their own test and decide for them self, not promoting a special brand of back. Witch kind of troll are you ?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99738\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
didnt you started your ( first post in LL?) comments telling that there is a clear winner ( phase ) amd a clear looser ( sinar ) in terms of image quality?
i already have asked you for your name, or website, or anything which could give little bit transparency to your person and of your skills, as most people are giving here.
its not very usefull to use namedropping here for replacing your own name.
than telling how "good" and how neutral you share your great experience.
and telling really strange PR-bs about lenses and backs.
i share my experience too ( as you state that you do it ), but i dont do it anonymous and i think i really know what about i speak from my own experience. do you?
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Thierry,
As we all know Sinar and Rollei have formed an alliance. Can we hope that we will be able to use Rollei MF lenses on a P3 ? I am hearing that X-Act 2 was discontinued and an adaptation of Rollei lens adapter and a (new) lens control may be logical. I understand that CMV lenses are better then my 6008 glass, just wanted to utilize my lens collection and save some money .
Thanks,
Yevgeny
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99670\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Dear Yevgeny,
First of all, the Rollei X-Act 2 has not been discontinued and is available from all Sinar disribtors worldwide.
Future developments with and adaption of Rollei lenses to the Sinar system: such has not been decided yet, and therefore I can't say much about it at this stage.
Best regards,
Thierry
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didnt you started your ( first post in LL?) comments telling that there is a clear winner ( phase ) amd a clear looser ( sinar ) in terms of image quality?
i already have asked you for your name, or website, or anything which could give little bit transparency to your person and of your skills, as most people are giving here.
its not very usefull to use namedropping here for replacing your own name.
than telling how "good" and how neutral you share your great experience.
and telling really strange PR-bs about lenses and backs.
i share my experience too ( as you state that you do it ), but i dont do it anonymous and i think i really know what about i speak from my own experience. do you?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99743\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
In my opinion (ad I am not alone since it also reflects market share):
Clear winner: Phase or Leaf
So so but ok: Hasselblad
4th place: Sinar
BUT I also state that every photographer should be testing for them self and not believe you or me.
There are a lot of anonymous contributors on this forum; there are also dealers and factory reps (with their own agenda), and serious photographers like you (with or without an agenda)
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Hi Graham
As a photo editor I am use to dealing with files from a lot of different MFD backs
What I see in your 100% file crop and pointed out is quite common seen on e22 and e75 Sinar backs. So I wish you the best of luck with other RAW development options.
In my opinion
Leaf and Phase rocks
Hasselblad so so
Sinar comes in as no. 4
And to Ethan – you should first try out different backs and decide witch one you like, then choose a camera system, not the other way around.
You will be surprised how different the 4 brands of backs perform.
In my opinion a Leaf or Phase back on a Hasselblad / Mamiya / Contax system will easily outperform a Sinar back on a Hy6 even with Schneider lenses…..
Good luck with your choice – but very important TEST for you self before buying.
Toby
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99701\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Dear Toby,
As a serious "tester" you are certainly not without knowing that any such comments and quality comparisons are useless and of no value. I can prove you the contrary any time, and the opposite of the contrary any time too! Let alone that by speaking one can prove anything, from any type and any brand of digital back.
Make use of the back the correct way and you will get files with astonishing quality, from Phase, Leaf, Hasselblad and Sinar digital backs.
I am a Sinar employee, and as such cannot let this statement without reaction. But I can say also, that as a serious photographer with 28 years of experience with large format and film, then the jump and the experience with digital since the begin of the nineties, I won't even dare to say that my competitors are producing rubbish quality, simply because it would not be fair and true. I have great respect of any competitor, as much for the name as for the quality produced by all of us with MFDB.
Best regards,
Thierry
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Well said Thierry!
Keep up the good work!
Regards,
Willem.
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In my opinion (ad I am not alone since it also reflects market share):
Clear winner: Phase or Leaf
So so but ok: Hasselblad
4th place: Sinar
BUT I also state that every photographer should be testing for them self and not believe you or me.
There are a lot of anonymous contributors on this forum; there are also dealers and factory reps (with their own agenda), and serious photographers like you (with or without an agenda)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99746\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
are you some missleaded phase employe?
why you dont answer my questions for your background?
maybe graham is right and you are just a simple "troll".
-
According to some, McDonalds is the best food you can buy and Toyota makes the best cars. The market shares prove it!
Now let's return to an objective comparison of the systems in question.
-
Well Rainer I will have to disagree here.
There seem to be a common mistake on this forum, that all backs deliver more or less the same quality files (when you get to know the software well) and that the real different is the Camera and lenses used. (And in workflow).
I strongly recommend all photographers who want to get into MFD photography to test and try out different backs and decide for your self.
You will be surprised by the difference in file quality between a Hasselblad 39 back and a Phase P45 back (same sensor) on a side by side shoot with the same camera and lens. This is also the case between Leaf A75 and Sinar e75.
The difference in my opinion is much larger than the difference in lens quality from Schneider glass to Hasselblad/Fuji to Contax to Mamyia glass.
Regarding Architectural photography – Here (http://www.timgriffith.com/) is a award winning photographer who is shooting with Phase One back
My two cents: Get the back you want first then go for a camera system.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=99714\")
Dear Toby,
there are as well "Award Winning" photograhers with Sinar, and even in "Fashion/Beauty", like e.g.:
[a href=\"http://www.sarahsilver.com/]http://www.sarahsilver.com/[/url]
&
http://www.justincooper.net/ (http://www.justincooper.net/) (in reconstruction currently)
Like there are "Award Winning" photograhers with Leaf or with Hasselblad.
Who are you for making such statements?
Best regards,
Thierry
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Dear Toby,
there are as well "Award Winning" photograhers with Sinar, and even in "Fashion/Beauty", like e.g.:
http://www.sarahsilver.com/ (http://www.sarahsilver.com/)
&
http://www.justincooper.net/ (http://www.justincooper.net/) (in reconstruction currently)
Like there are "Award Winning" photograhers with Leaf or with Hasselblad.
Who are you for making such statements?
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99751\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well I really got the Sinar Guys pissed at me !
My statements are based on experience working with files from different backs.
And I am sorry that Sinar in my opinion does not deliver same quality files as Leaf or Phase. I understand you have to react due to your position at Sinar.
Well you can write that my opinion is not valid, but I am just suggesting that photographers test different backs before buying into a MFD system.
You want us to think that there is just a little difference between the backs and the difference comes down to raw converter and workflow.
This is simply not true – there is major difference between backs !
If you are so sure about your product, I would encourage you to give Michael an e75, and have him test it up against his P45 - but I guess you don’t dare after all !
Toby
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According to some, McDonalds is the best food you can buy and Toyota makes the best cars. The market shares prove it!
Now let's return to an objective comparison of the systems in question.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99750\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
"Objective Comparison" ??
The only way is to try the back out for your self !
I wonder why all of you Sinar guys are so reluctant
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Well I really got the Sinar Guys pissed at me !
My statements are based on experience working with files from different backs.
And I am sorry that Sinar in my opinion does not deliver same quality files as Leaf or Phase. I understand you have to react due to your position at Sinar.
Well you can write that my opinion is not valid, but I am just suggesting that photographers test different backs before buying into a MFD system.
You want us to think that there is just a little difference between the backs and the difference comes down to raw converter and workflow.
This is simply not true – there is major difference between backs !
If you are so sure about your product, I would encourage you to give Michael an e75, and have him test it up against his P45 - but I guess you don’t dare after all !
Toby
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99757\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Again Toby,
make your identity public, publish your credits and your real agenda. You are a member since yesterday and start to criticize and denigrate a brand (being it Sinar or any other does not matter) with the obvious reasons and purposes to only denigrate.
There are no facts and no serious points and arguments in your posts, which makes it aq kind of strange, not only for Sinar users on this forum, but also to all other respectable photographers.
Sinar is not afraid to make any side-by-side test, and many have been made already. And let me tell you that they do not even coincide with your own conclusions.
We are of course ready and anytime to organize such a testing: all one has to do is to get in touch with our PR Dpt. at Sinar Switzerland and contact our Mr. Lorenz Koch (lorenz.koch@sinar.ch).
Now, it is also my guess that all the members and back owners here on this Forum have not only tested the backs before making a choice and purchase decision, but they most probably have even run some real-life productions before doing so (at least so is my experience with most of our customers): I would expect so from any serious photographer investing (not only buying) in such equipment.
As for my own agenda here, if you are asking me: I am here with my real name, with my management's knowledge and agreement though not asked to do so. Yes, I am a Sinar employee and proud to be, but yes too, I am also a photographer with some little experience with my 28 years dealing with cameras and more recently digital backs. And by dealing I do not only mean to "get files from others" and judge then judge them, but also by handling and shooting with the tools itself and even by teaching in worshops and seminars since 17 years now and worldwide. By saying this I do not intend to profile myself or being pretending, but it simply gives me the necessary assurance to stand behind my posts on this forum.
This being said, it is my opinion that it makes no further sense to argue with each other here. You can contact me anytime offline and at my direct email address (thierry.hagenauer@sinar.ch) to discuss, if your intention is a serious discussion.
All the best to you,
Thierry
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i agree in testing the backs, i disagree in the file quality order you make. so my 1:1 comparisons i have done show the opposite than yours in case of sinar and leaf, i usually dont do other things than architecture and with the last 22mp generation of backs the miss of color shifts has been my 1. reason to go for the dalsa sensor, after that i thought if go with leaf or with sinar,- i have collected much experience with kodak sensorsbefore ( which have not changed their design in this aspect ) to know what it means a.e. to stitch images which are corrected with inverted files as the lcc workflow provides.
ofcourse tim griffith is a very good photographer and i like his work, but what the hell you want to say with your statement?.....
about awards: i dont have won any award ,- at first because i never have sent in any work to any photo price or competition ( i am not saying that i would have won if i would have participated, i dont have any idea about )..... but i have to tell you also that i shoot with sinar backs and i do huge projects for several very famous clients.... projects i have shot have won many awards and prices in every of the last years, my clients have been used herefor the photos i have made,- with 4x5", canons 1ds and kodak slr cameras, with roundshot film cameras, and with 22+33mp backs ( from sinar ).
further you can be sure that tim griffith would win his awards also if he would use sinar backs, or imacon or leaf backs or 4x5" film ( or whatever ).....
its usually the photographer who makes great photos,- not his back.
i disagree also about the lenses:
a well corrected (nearly ) symmetric lense as the sinar/ rodenstock 35HR is for my work an absolute other thing than a bad corrected unsymmetric wideangle than a.e. the mamiya 35mm which gets unsharp 20mm away from the center if not stopped down very much and shows 2 or 3% of moustache form distortion, aside from clear visible green-magenta CA at the edges. i would prefere by far to work with the rodenstock lense with ANY 17mp chip ( although the chips have been too little- so i would have to use a 28HR or 24xl,- but i just want to give an example ) than to use ANY of the 30,33 or 39mp backs together with the bad lense.
but again: whats for me a bad lense ( distortion,- unsharp edges ) might be for other purposes absolute ok, whats a good lense for my work ( symmetric lenses , probably with a copal shutter .... ) will be simply unusuable for fashion shots, independent which back you put behind the lense.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99719\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Tim Griffith is a kicking photographer - a great Australian shooter who has an amazing sense of composition and a well designed web site. ( a site that seems to have "inspired" a few other photographers. I've seen one that looks pretty much like it came from the same code or designer)
He has the typical Aussie personality, deserves the awards he has won and frankly, could shoot with anything including a toy camera and come up with killer images.
You choose the best tool for the job as you see fit. Tim uses a P45 - it is the best tool for how he works. Others use the Aptus. Some use the Sinar. Others the Imacon/Hassy backs.
In the end, the images are what is most important.
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Running low on arguments Graham, doesn’t seem like you when you are promoting the Hy6 and e22.
I guess you ran your image through Sinar Capture Shop and still got the same result.
BTW there are good and bad trolls – I am a good one trying to help new MFD photographers to make their own test and decide for them self, not promoting a special brand of back. Witch kind of troll are you ?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=99738\")
Good Trolls?
This conversation is why I believe one should disclose one's real name. Then you have your reputation at stake! A person's statements must be seen in the context of their professionalism.
I have personally been so impressed with Rainer's work that I flew to Munich to meet him. His opinion on photography is worth paying attention to.
I use Rainer, not to single him out, (I just happen to know him) as he is merely representative of all like photographers who have dedicated themselves to excellence in what they choose to photograph.
More, they know in depth the technical details of competing systems because they tested them for their unique practical and esthetic needs Their choices are driven by rationalism, the factors needed to achieve the photographic quality he/she requires to deliver to the client.
They don't hide behind pseudonyms. They are known. Their decisions aren't spasms of choice based on the buzz or on what some guru reports testing the camera for a weekend. Rather each lens is considered based on its behavior with the sensor. Many factors beyond geometry and contrast such as the imaging materials with uniformity like the steel and aluminum of modern buildings or whatever is important to them and many other such issues which can make (or detract from) the final image.
Add to this they often have developed an insightful investigatory approach to lens and sensor choice.
In his particular case, I happen to know that his other personal work is especially ephemeral.
There's so much more that goes into the professional choice of equipment, that to argue based on the images that come over your desk is, to my mind, a stretch.
You might say I like this photographer's work with this camera, but how can one rank these backs and lenses without having the in depth experience? That really is hubris.
One can talk about one's own needs, own experience and own preferences, not rank complex instruments used by different photographers with different needs and values used under disparate conditions.
There are no good trolls, BTW, not while they are still breathing!
Asher Kelman
[a href=\"http://www.openphotographyforums.com]Open Photography Forums[/url]
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sinar is the onliest which offer ( in the 54h ) 16 shot back. no competitor here... so no number 1. or 2.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99712\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I believe the current Hasselblad CF-22 offers 16 shot (as well as 4 and 1.) Or at least the specs say so on HB's webpage.
With 22 mpix on both the sinar and the hb, id say its a close tie, but with a screen and battery for untethered shooting, the hb takes a small lead...
-axel
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Well I really got the Sinar Guys pissed at me !
My statements are based on experience working with files from different backs.
Please provide the files for us to examine. Just pick out matched files from which you made you strong opinions.
You want us to think that there is just a little difference between the backs and the difference comes down to raw converter and workflow.
This is simply not true – there is major difference between backs !
Of course all backs are different, as are all photographers and their esthetics, experience, judgement and technical needs to satisfy their clients!
What ruler do you expect Michael Reichman to take out of his pocket by which he might rank these various backs?
The only ruler he has is quite expert and based on decades of hard work and insight to his own needs! Micheal is always upfront about the products he writes about based on his own idiomatic requirements and purposes. That he is often ahead of the curve is true but does not provide some universal translation of his take on backs to everyone's needs. Michael does not hold himself out to be a National Bureau of Standards to be used in some argument by a troll.
Also MR needs no encouragent from you to test backs. There's no other publisher I know of who has written more on the backs available. His job, however, is to share with us his experience in choosing the cameras for his own work, not your work!
If you are so sure about your product, I would encourage you to give Michael an e75, and have him test it up against his P45 - but I guess you don’t dare after all !
That is downright rude. I am offended that you would berate someone who devotes his best efforts to sharing what he does know with people he does not necessarily know and may never actually meet.
If you are indeed a professional, then you must realize that etiquete has been left behind. I'm ony writing to make the record complete and allow you the gap in which to place an apology.
If you have valid data on the quality of files that were so convincing to precipitate your ranking of backs, then make them available. Otherwise, the argument you have put up collapses, no matter what camera MR tests.
Asher Kelman
Open Photography Forums (http://www.openphotographyforums.com)
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If you are indeed a professional, then you must realize that etiquete has been left behind. I'm ony writing to make the record complete and allow you the gap in which to place an apology.
If you have valid data on the quality of files that were so convincing to precipitate your ranking of backs, then make them available. Otherwise, the argument you have put up collapses, no matter what camera MR tests.
Asher Kelman
Open Photography Forums (http://www.openphotographyforums.com)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99796\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks Asher, for this very well-said comment. I can only agree with your judgement, although I was not expecting as much as an apology for what has been said: some decent respect of the work and of the persons involved would already put everything in another light.
One has to respect persons as persons at the very first, to get respected in return. That's what life has thought me. And in this, all the people posting here have to be respected, no matter which camera or back brand they are using.
It further "scares" away from posting many others who don't want to get "slapped" this way: an example was this morning, when somebody (not a Sinar user) wrote to me directly, telling me that he was on the way to post and ask a question when he read this non-sense. So he wrote and asked me directly. This should not be the case: leave this forum what it is, a sharing place of knowledge and experience, no matter which gear or equipment your are using, and more importantly, respect of each other is asked.
Best to all,
Thierry
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In my opinion (ad I am not alone since it also reflects market share):
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99746\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think this is about to change...
For people like myself, who looked at phase/hass/leaf when purchasing, phase and possibly leaf looked like the sh** before, but now hasselblad has played catch up with both cutting edge technology and a strong marketing campaign (not so succsessful to people who already own MFDB systems, as we all know with the 48mm FF thing... but to first time buyers)
A dealer I use tells me he usually sold Phase systems at a high ratio to HB, but now big local customers and rental houses are coming in and ordering up to 5 H3D's in a go... something is certainly happening. And today a poster on this very forum says he went to a Diesel shoot, where there was a handful of people shooting with the H2D... (btw, a system that is discounted at many dealers, and with the small upgrade fee of 1000 euros, may be a viable way into a H3D system. I have'nt checked the figures though )
Also with Phase not having a clear strategy as to deal with manufacturers who are closing their systems to outside back producers, it might cut into their market share for existing customers (?)
-axel
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+1
(And I think it is about time Sinar looked at raising your salary, because you are a real asset to them by being on this forum (and others?) Being clear and outspoken about certainties, and also sharing on things that are not so certain. Thumbs up )
Dear Toby,
As a serious "tester" you are certainly not without knowing that any such comments and quality comparisons are useless and of no value. I can prove you the contrary any time, and the opposite of the contrary any time too! Let alone that by speaking one can prove anything, from any type and any brand of digital back.
Make use of the back the correct way and you will get files with astonishing quality, from Phase, Leaf, Hasselblad and Sinar digital backs.
I am a Sinar employee, and as such cannot let this statement without reaction. But I can say also, that as a serious photographer with 28 years of experience with large format and film, then the jump and the experience with digital since the begin of the nineties, I won't even dare to say that my competitors are producing rubbish quality, simply because it would not be fair and true. I have great respect of any competitor, as much for the name as for the quality produced by all of us with MFDB.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99747\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thanks Asher, for this very well-said comment. I can only agree with your judgement, although I was not expecting as much as an apology for what has been said: some decent respect of the work and of the persons involved would already put everything in another light.
One has to respect persons as persons at the very first, to get respected in return. That's what life has thought me. And in this, all the people posting here have to be respected, no matter which camera or back brand they are using.
It further "scares" away from posting many others who don't want to get "slapped" this way: an example was this morning, when somebody (not a Sinar user) wrote to me directly, telling me that he was on the way to post and ask a question when he read this non-sense. So he wrote and asked me directly. This should not be the case: leave this forum what it is, a sharing place of knowledge and experience, no matter which gear or equipment your are using, and more importantly, respect of each other is asked.
Best to all,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99797\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Wow a lot of hostility here.
You should all have in mind that I first reacted to a 100% crop by Graham and his e22 back and pointed out the different artifacts (exactly the same artifacts as I encounter with e22 and e75).
Then there were all the excuses like working on a pc and bad raw developer.
I am making my statement that there is a larger difference between MFD backs than between MF camera systems and therefore you should chose your back before you chose a camera system.
And you should test different backs before buying.
Dear Thierry I am happy that you think that members and back owners on this forum are testing different backs in real life production – then after all my statement on image quality and market share should not be too far off.
You could easily prove me wrong (and I will eat my words) if you would let Michael test an e75 back up against LEAF, Hasselblad or Phase. If as you stated did all the test and you believe in your product this should be no problem. My guess is that it will never happened and I wonder why all these words and no action.
Regarding Mr. Griffith he surely deserves all the credit, and he will make amazing images with any camera back or film.
This thread was about Hy6 vs. H3D and I my opinion the backs on these cameras matters more than the lenses in front.
Toby
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Wow a lot of hostility here.
You should all have in mind that I first reacted to a 100% crop by Graham and his e22 back and pointed out the different artifacts (exactly the same artifacts as I encounter with e22 and e75).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99803\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
but you dont respect his answers.
i dont have any specific "sinar" artefacts with my e22 or with my e75.
again:
why you dont tell us who you are?
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Wow a lot of hostility here.
You should all have in mind that I first reacted to a 100% crop by Graham and his e22 back and pointed out the different artifacts (exactly the same artifacts as I encounter with e22 and e75).
Then there were all the excuses like working on a pc and bad raw developer.
I am making my statement that there is a larger difference between MFD backs than between MF camera systems and therefore you should chose your back before you chose a camera system.
And you should test different backs before buying.
Dear Thierry I am happy that you think that members and back owners on this forum are testing different backs in real life production – then after all my statement on image quality and market share should not be too far off.
You could easily prove me wrong (and I will eat my words) if you would let Michael test an e75 back up against LEAF, Hasselblad or Phase. If as you stated did all the test and you believe in your product this should be no problem. My guess is that it will never happened and I wonder why all these words and no action.
Regarding Mr. Griffith he surely deserves all the credit, and he will make amazing images with any camera back or film.
This thread was about Hy6 vs. H3D and I my opinion the backs on these cameras matters more than the lenses in front.
Toby
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99803\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Dear Toby,
you are persisting: we are all asking for your identity and credits or images, or webpage to give any kind of respect to your comments. And first of all we are asking for your respect.
What you say in this post is nothing more, nothing new, and you have said the same x-times already, with the same words in any of your other posts, since the begining. And you have got full answers to all your points, even before asking: Foto-Z had clearly explained at the begin of his first post not to look on quality like noise or artifacts. Why are you picking this out, if you don't have any particular agenda.
Yes again, photographers are testing backs before investing! As for market share: you might be right. Put it in another perspective and go and check which companies have made profits and which one have lost money, since the begin of the digital age. There are some official financial company reports available in "Scandinavia", year after year. Go and have a look and your comment of market share will get another light.
e75 tests: I have no "suggestion" to get from you and won't fall in this game. Our backs are at disposal for such tests (already said) and we have proven it in other occasions. We do not need your "advice" to do so and are ready to speak with anybody when contacted and asked. Your guess that it won't happen is provocative and an insult, nothing more.
Tread "Hy6 vs H3D": did you really read Ethan's first post? Certainly not, otherwise you would have noticed that it was not only question in it about a camera platform, but that it was about a system (camera + back)!
Dear Toby, in case you haven't noticed it yet: I won't let myself and a company get insulted this way. I have a reputation of speaking frankly and honestly, and I shall do the same here, no matter who or what you are, or which company your represent here.
Best regards,
Thierry
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Wow a lot of hostility here.
People here are asking you for some references to give credibility to your comments. You mostly ignore such requests and just repeat your claims. If you have spent time on forums you should understand why you are getting the responses you get. As people have pointed out, there is much about your posts that seem troll-like.
1. You claim great experience, yet refuse to back it up with examples of your work or other specific references.
2. You refuse to reveal your identity, and don't give any reason why.
3. You have only just recently joined this forum so no one here knows you well enough to evaluate your comments.
These characteristics would get you painted as a troll most forums.
No, there is no such thing as a good troll. On a fourm one must have credibility for one's value judgements to be useful. You have not done anything to build your credibility, yet your posts contain controversial value judgements (your ranking of various backs).
Until you make some effort to gain credibility, many here will just treat you as a troll with an ulterior motive. Credibility must be earned. You cannot expect it when you are, anonymous, and have no history of making useful posts here. To be taken seriously, people here have to know something about you. The only way to do that while being anonymous is to slowly build a history of helpful posts. Don't start out with non-substantiated value judgements.
You your specific claim of editing work from many photographers using many different MFDB's, without knowing who these photographers are and what their work is like, we can give this claim little credibility. It could be that the quality of work you see has more to do with the skills of the photographers, than it does with the hardware they use. We have no way of knowing, therefore can give little value to your claims.
Regards,
Robin Casady
http://www.robincasady.com (http://www.robincasady.com)
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People here are asking you for some references to give credibility to your comments. You mostly ignore such requests and just repeat your claims. If you have spent time on forums you should understand why you are getting the responses you get. As people have pointed out, there is much about your posts that seem troll-like.
1. You claim great experience, yet refuse to back it up with examples of your work or other specific references.
2. You refuse to reveal your identity, and don't give any reason why.
3. You have only just recently joined this forum so no one here knows you well enough to evaluate your comments.
These characteristics would get you painted as a troll most forums.
No, there is no such thing as a good troll. On a fourm one must have credibility for one's value judgements to be useful. You have not done anything to build your credibility, yet your posts contain controversial value judgements (your ranking of various backs).
Until you make some effort to gain credibility, many here will just treat you as a troll with an ulterior motive. Credibility must be earned. You cannot expect it when you are, anonymous, and have no history of making useful posts here. To be taken seriously, people here have to know something about you. The only way to do that while being anonymous is to slowly build a history of helpful posts. Don't start out with non-substantiated value judgements.
You your specific claim of editing work from many photographers using many different MFDB's, without knowing who these photographers are and what their work is like, we can give this claim little credibility. It could be that the quality of work you see has more to do with the skills of the photographers, than it does with the hardware they use. We have no way of knowing, therefore can give little value to your claims.
Regards,
Robin Casady
http://www.robincasady.com (http://www.robincasady.com)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99807\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Ok I get it.
Since I can’t reveal my name or post any of my photographers images her on this forum, I will throw in the towel and delete my profile.
Consider me as a troll popping up from a box saying the stuff people don’t want to hear: There are major differences between backs, consensus on this site is that there is very little differences depending on the photographers skill. Do not believe this but see for your self.
I do hope that photographers reading this post go out and test different backs, and when they also experience the difference - think of me as a good troll.
I apologies to Thierry, my comments was never meant as a vendetta against Sinar, best of luck to you and to your company.
Toby
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I apologies to Thierry, my comments was never meant as a vendetta against Sinar, best of luck to you and to your company.
Toby
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99810\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Apolgies accepted: thanks Toby to understand than one cannot speak with this tone, nowhere and to nobody.
The best to you as well,
Thierry
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Ok I get it.
Since I can’t reveal my name or post any of my photographers images her on this forum, I will throw in the towel and delete my profile.
Consider me as a troll popping up from a box saying the stuff people don’t want to hear: There are major differences between backs, consensus on this site is that there is very little differences depending on the photographers skill. Do not believe this but see for your self.
I do hope that photographers reading this post go out and test different backs, and when they also experience the difference - think of me as a good troll.
I apologies to Thierry, my comments was never meant as a vendetta against Sinar, best of luck to you and to your company.
Toby
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=99810\")
I cannot fathom why one cannot use one's own name if what one is saying is the truth and one is not escaping from the Mafia, a stalker or the like. Decent representatives of of honest companies give their true identity if requested.
I do understand not using anyone elses files. Still you did apologize and that is appreciated.
If you could get over the ranking of things, introduce yourself, then we can leave this matter and return to the backs themselves.
******
It must be that lens-back-systems are important for some work. For sure with Canon DSLR's the 50mm 1.4 has birefringence issues with the CMOS semsor but works perfectly with film.
Leica wide angle lenses function fine on film but them the angle is to sharp for the Kodak CCD at the field edges.
Systems built from scratch take into account the factors which are otherwise fudged or have to be ignored.
Hasselblad has decided to build in to each camera the profiles for each lens at each aperture so as to correct system imperfections.
Ideally, this should not be necessary. Lenses and backs should be designed from the outset together. For the Hasselblad system, they admit their system has many flaws and correct them in software.
The Hy6 system likely will benefit from similar software post procesing based on lens-sensor characteristics, either from the consortium of Hy6 supporters or else from 3rd party after market software companies.
Ultimately "the total system" is what counts.
Asher Kelman
[a href=\"http://www.openphotographyforums.com]Open Photography forums[/url]
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Strange,
Reading through this thread, it reminds me of a certain thread on the old RG forum, from about 11 months ago. That thread, along with a few others, eventually lead to the explosion and the fall of RG.
Anyone who was reading RG at that time, will remember that during Focus On Imaging 2006, I publically challenged the other 3 competitors to run a side-by-side test, with UK's photographers as the judges.
Like Thierry, I am employed by one of the manufacturers (Leaf) and have a strong loyalty to it (and of course an agenda).
So my agenda for this year's Focus (25-28 Feb, NEC Birmingham see http://www.focus-on-imaging.co.uk/) (http://www.focus-on-imaging.co.uk/)) is to challenge everybody again! Anyone accepting it, be it a manufacturer, a dealer or an end user.
Let the public choose the camera platform/s, choose the subject and let's get on with it!!!
My bet is that just like last year, the silent will be deafening...but I'm willing to be surprised:-)
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One of the photographic magazines ran a side-by-side test recently, which will be published within a few weeks. 2 competitors have chickened out (their reasons/ excuses are their problem I guess) and from the 2 that were left, 1 won the test, mostly for handling and image quality.
This can mean everything or nothing as it surely doesn't cover everybody's needs or expectations.
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I encourage any photographer who is looking to buy into the MFDB world, to make any effort needed for testing all the solutions that are relevant for his/ her work, from handling, to image quality, to workflow, output quality in real print and to cost/ value.
Test them in YOUR environment, in YOUR conditions and if possible, side-by-side on your chosen platform/s.
Only then you'll be able to determine which one might be the best for you.
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I second everything that has been said about Tim Griffith, regardless of the kit used the man produces imagery that many other architechture photographers try to immitate, not to mention copying his website's design. Enough said.
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Best to all from snowy London
Yair
[span style=\'font-size:7pt;line-height:100%\']Yair Shahar | Regional Manager | Leaf EMEA |
mob: +44 77 8992 8199 | yair.shahar@kodak.com | www.leaf-photography.com
Leaf, part of Kodak's Graphic Communications Group
[/span]
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...There are major differences between backs, consensus on this site is that there is very little differences depending on the photographers skill. Do not believe this but see for your self.
I do hope that photographers reading this post go out and test different backs, and when they also experience the difference - think of me as a good troll...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99810\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think most people on this forum agree on this point, the backs are different and even more important, the software is very, very different. the results can be the same depending on your experience and controll of the software and in conjunction with post production - which all of the files from all of the db's need.
I would also argue that the most important factor in the choice of a digital system should be made on what's in front of the camera and what's behind the camera, not what's in the middle. Lenses and file/software are really the crucial factors. The body is important, but I'd compromise there first. If making Leaf software 10x faster meant I had to use it on a Bronica, i'd seriously think about it.
It's very nice that people share "raw" files from different backs, but there are so many variables, and so many different ways of working, I don't really see the point. If you don't try the different systems in your own shooting sinerio and work on your own files with the software, your asking for trouble.
As far as the decision between the Hy6 and the HD3 are concerned...again, an intelligent choice can only be made by using both systems and processing hundreds of files with both softwares -
anyone buying an early bird Hy6 on specs is nuts IMO.
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Wow... what a thread/bar-fight/informative article/mosh-pit. Here's where I'm at now:
- Lining up appointments with the dealers (as was the case when the thread started)
- Putting the Leaf AFi on the short list with Sinar and H. Leaning more towards the Hy6/AFi over the H.
- Thinking back to the arguments that I grew up with in the midwest: chevy/ford
- Thinking that no matter what I chose, no matter my reasons, I'll upset 1/3 of the forum members, please 1/3 and the other 1/3 won't care either way...
Regarding the issue of anonymity/real-identity: there is an excellent article on A List Apart (http://alistapart.com/articles/identitymatters) about this explaining why anonymity in forums can lead to very poor behavior. I'd say the de facto, community enforced policy of "real identity" on these forums is a very good thing.
Personally, no matter what gear each one of us uses, I value the input, experience and time that the you all share. I try to keep in mind that we're all sitting in this virtual studio together and will do my best to be straight talking yet polite, as I'd be if we were face to face.
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Strange,
Like Thierry, I am employed by one of the manufacturers (Leaf) and have a strong loyalty to it (and of course an agenda).
So my agenda for this year's Focus (25-28 Feb, NEC Birmingham see http://www.focus-on-imaging.co.uk/) (http://www.focus-on-imaging.co.uk/)) is to challenge everybody again! Anyone accepting it, be it a manufacturer, a dealer or an end user.
Let the public choose the camera platform/s, choose the subject and let's get on with it!!!
My bet is that just like last year, the silent will be deafening...but I'm willing to be surprised:-)
Yair
[span style=\'font-size:7pt;line-height:100%\']Yair Shahar | Regional Manager | Leaf EMEA |
mob: +44 77 8992 8199 | yair.shahar@kodak.com | www.leaf-photography.com
Leaf, part of Kodak's Graphic Communications Group
[/span]
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99815\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
hi Yair,
well, you shall be surprised! I am not silent and can say that we would accept your challenge under certain conditions of fairness, organisation and impartiality. However, it is not my decision and I shall forward this to the respective person.
I don't know if Sinar was one f the 2 having refused the side-by-side test last year, since I am not covering the UK, but let me tell you a little story I have experienced in HK/China: 2 years ago we have been invited by a back manufacturer the same way you do it now, to do a side-by-side test, with all the manufacturers, which I accepted in a first step. It was organized together with a famous local photo magazine which had the right to publish the results of this shootout. It turned out that we were explained that the testing would have to be run and made by the representative of one of the contender, the same contender who asked me to participate. So I and under my responsbility refused to participate at such a circus. And obviously, the tests results printed later and with the 2 other manufacturers of backs showed exactly what was the purpose of the whole game. Strangely enough, Sinar was placed in 4th position, not to say last! I will not disclose here the name of this back manufacturer, if asked.
So let me be a bit skeptical at first, concerning such tests: if all the conditions of impartiality and fairness are met, then I can have no objection to such: each manufacturer (or his local distributor) handles the shooting with its own back, on the absolutely same setup (camera, lens, f-stop, exp. time, lighting, subject, etc ...) and delivers the finished file at the end to a neutral panel of "judges" (your proposal to take the public is tempting). But before that, one should also know the criteria of quality which will be judged. It si a difficult task and If you can guaranty that, then nobody can say no.
You know, we have been also winner of such tests: but have the real conditions of impartiality and equal treatment been offered to all? I honestly don't know.
Why don't you take contact officially with Sinar or its representaive in the UK: I think they would be willing to at least speak about such a good idea.
If not possible in the UK, I am myself ready to organize the same side-by-side shooting in my region (Asia - Pacific) at any time: Australia for example? Would you support me the same way I am supporting your idea in the UK?: we have even the same distributor in this country, which would make things so much easier. Would be nice
Good luck and have a nice snowy day in London!
From the hot Bangkok,
Thierry
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Ethan:
Congrats on getting your thread back. Wow, it was hijacked half way around the world.
BTW, good luck on your search. Sounds like you are making progress.
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See this is why I'm trying to do it in a more spontaneous way: No magazines, no "panels".
Let the photographer/s handle the kit, with us reps/ dealers as advisors, giving basic guidance and making sure that it's being used properly and of course answering any questions as we go.
My idea is not to have it all written in an article with winners or loosers, simply because I doubt there is a writer/ reviewer that is capable of handling it.
(No magazine will ever have the bandwidth or willingness to do a thorough and comprehansive test, since there are many other "political" aspects involved. Trust me I've been trying to convince them for years).
It is more for allowing a neutral ground, in wich potential buyers (or anyone else) have a chance to lay their hands on the various backs and take the same pictures on the same platforms (of their choice).
At the end we can just burn DVDs with RAW files and free copies of all the different SW so photographers/ buyers can walk away with something to sit and peep away.
I'll be happy if someone from Sinar UK or CH contacts me to arrange it, same goes for Phase and Hasselblad of course.
I'll also check with my colleagues in AP about doing something in Australia
Thierry, whatever the outcome is, your company should be thankful to you for your contribution to this forum, as its members I'm sure are.
Yair
hi Yair,
well, you shall be surprised! I am not silent and can say that we would accept your challenge under certain conditions of fairness, organisation and impartiality. However, it is not my decision and I shall forward this to the respective person.
I don't know if Sinar was one f the 2 having refused the side-by-side test last year, since I am not covering the UK, but let me tell you a little story I have experienced in HK/China: 2 years ago we have been invited by a back manufacturer the same way you do it now, to do a side-by-side test, with all the manufacturers, which I accepted in a first step. It was organized together with a famous local photo magazine which had the right to publish the results of this shootout. It turned out that we were explained that the testing would have to be run and made by the representative of one of the contender, the same contender who asked me to participate. So I and under my responsbility refused to participate at such a circus. And obviously, the tests results printed later and with the 2 other manufacturers of backs showed exactly what was the purpose of the whole game. Strangely enough, Sinar was placed in 4th position, not to say last! I will not disclose here the name of this back manufacturer, if asked.
So let me be a bit skeptical at first, concerning such tests: if all the conditions of impartiality and fairness are met, then I can have no objection to such: each manufacturer (or his local distributor) handles the shooting with its own back, on the absolutely same setup (camera, lens, f-stop, exp. time, lighting, subject, etc ...) and delivers the finished file at the end to a neutral panel of "judges" (your proposal to take the public is tempting). But before that, one should also know the criteria of quality which will be judged. It si a difficult task and If you can guaranty that, then nobody can say no.
You know, we have been also winner of such tests: but have the real conditions of impartiality and equal treatment been offered to all? I honestly don't know.
Why don't you take contact officially with Sinar or its representaive in the UK: I think they would be willing to at least speak about such a good idea.
If not possible in the UK, I am myself ready to organize the same side-by-side shooting in my region (Asia - Pacific) at any time: Australia for example? Would you support me the same way I am supporting your idea in the UK?: we have even the same distributor in this country, which would make things so much easier. Would be nice
Good luck and have a nice snowy day in London!
From the hot Bangkok,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99818\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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certain conditions of fairness, organisation and impartiality.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99818\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
And to be really useful to consumers make it more than a test of pixel peeping.
My suggested contest rules would be:
1. Use a live model wearing knitted and synthetic clothing
2. Same camera body, lens and aperture and tethered computer for all shots.
3. 3 minutes shooting tethered with studio flash.
4. 3 minutes shooting un-tethered with studio flash
5. 3 minutes shooting untethered with modeling lights only (high ISO test)
6. Deliver all images shot as finished (1000px long) jpgs and select 3 RAW and process to best quality 15mins after end of shoot as files and printed (16 x 20) proof sheet.
Scoring
1 point for each finished jpg.
2 points for each finished RAW.
-10 points for each camera/back stopage while shooting
-10 points for each computer stopage during shooting
Judge (an Art Director) to rate images (jpgs as a group, RAWs individually) out of 10 (each) for:
noise
tonality (skin, highlights, shadows etc)
colour fidelity
colour artifacts
resolution
moire (10=none 0=some)
overall 'look'
Add up ratings and multiply by total points for final score.
Video and post on LL.
Cheers
Peter
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And to be really useful to consumers make it more than a test of pixel peeping.
My suggested contest rules would be:
1. Use a live model wearing knitted and synthetic clothing
2. Same camera body, lens and aperture and tethered computer for all shots.
3. 3 minutes shooting tethered with studio flash.
4. 3 minutes shooting un-tethered with studio flash
5. 3 minutes shooting untethered with modeling lights only (high ISO test)
6. Deliver all images shot as finished (1000px long) jpgs and select 3 RAW and process to best quality 15mins after end of shoot as files and printed (16 x 20) proof sheet.
Scoring
1 point for each finished jpg.
2 points for each finished RAW.
-10 points for each camera/back stopage while shooting
-10 points for each computer stopage during shooting
Judge (an Art Director) to rate images (jpgs as a group, RAWs individually) out of 10 (each) for:
noise
tonality (skin, highlights, shadows etc)
colour fidelity
colour artifacts
resolution
moire (10=none 0=some)
overall 'look'
Add up ratings and multiply by total points for final score.
Video and post on LL.
Cheers
Peter
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99825\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Peter,
Thanks for your proposal.
sounds good and perfect, however, we have here already the first little problem:
You would then only test for a specific field and get a back winner for this specific task.
Much diffferent can be the test conditions and therefore the results if one shots sceneries; landscapes; architecure, or then stil life in Studio, or then Macros like jewelery, car photography, etc ...., when it needs shifts, tilts/swings....
Centerfold effects, color casts with shifts, high-light recovery in harsh light conditions, etc ... would not be covered and tested.
I don't want to be negative about such a test, but one has to take in account all issues in digital photography.
I would like the idea of a test involving all parameters and conditions, in all particular photographic fields, and then compare the different parts of this test.
Sounds difficult, but why not!
Let's see and think about it.
Thierry
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Ethan:
Congrats on getting your thread back. Wow, it was hijacked half way around the world.
BTW, good luck on your search. Sounds like you are making progress.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99823\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks Andrew... I'm thrilled that it's evolved out of my hands. Plus, maybe now we get to see a showdown at high noon between the MFDBs
On second thought, the light at high noon would suck. Let's do it at dusk.
Showdown at dusk!
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Peter,
Thanks for your proposal.
sounds good and perfect, however, we have here already the first little problem:
You would then only test for a specific field and get a back winner for this specific task.
Much diffferent can be the test conditions and therefore the results if one shots sceneries; landscapes; architecure, or then stil life in Studio, or then Macros like jewelery, car photography, etc ...., when it needs shifts, tilts/swings....
Centerfold effects, color casts with shifts, high-light recovery in harsh light conditions, etc ... would not be covered and tested.
I don't want to be negative about such a test, but one has to take in account all issues in digital photography.
I would like the idea of a test involving all parameters and conditions, in all particular photographic fields, and then compare the different parts of this test.
Sounds difficult, but why not!
Let's see and think about it.
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99826\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'd love to see this turn into a website or subsite (Michael?) that would allow this kind of head-to-head to be real asset and resource for the community.
And here's the kicker: we'll possibly find out that the different backs are nicely suited to different applications, and that different post workflows are suited to different photogs styles
Everyone wins!
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Thierry, excellent point @ other aspect of photography.
On a sidebar; I recently viewed the results from H3D with their 28mm albeit only JPG & not a 100% crop!! H3D seems to have totally eliminated the distortion!! This does eliminate the need to tilt-shift for Architectural & Interior photographer. And it can also use other lens in H line-up, may be Hasselblad knew what they were doing with H3D!!!
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Thierry, excellent point @ other aspect of photography.
On a sidebar; I recently viewed the results from H3D with their 28mm albeit only JPG & not a 100% crop!! H3D seems to have totally eliminated the distortion!! This does eliminate the need to tilt-shift for Architectural & Interior photographer.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99834\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
SeanBK, I think you are off target here. Lens distortion has nothing to do with why architectural/interiors photographers need movements (shifts of types, rise, fall and cross-shifts tend to be what I use, not very often tilt which is of more use in landscape or lifestyle photography).
What shifts do for me, is allow the control of perspective. This is different from needing to correct inherent distortion (barrel, pincushion or irregular) in a particular lens.
The best example of this is a great interiors trick using cross-shifts on a view camera. With this technique it is possible to apparently photograph a mirror head on without the camera or photographer appearing reflected in it. This is achieved by placing the camera to the left or right of the mirror, then shifting the back left or right in a horizontal plane so that the mirror appears in the desired place in the image.
Unless Hassleblad have incorporated a warp drive into their camera, I doubt if their integration is able to bend light so as to achieve the same effect as camera movements.
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Well Rainer I will have to disagree here.
Regarding Architectural photography – Here (http://www.timgriffith.com/) is a award winning photographer who is shooting with Phase One back
My two cents: Get the back you want first then go for a camera system.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99714\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
WOW, I just looked at Tim Griffith's website, amazing work. I also looked at Riner viertlböck's website, nice work as well, but there is something very weird here.
THE DESIGN OF BOTH WEBSITES ARE VIRTUALLY IDENTICAL!
Inquiring minds want to know, is this plagurism at it's best?
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I am surprised that the business case is not among your selection criteria. Which camera is likely to produce what payback when? At what cost? What is the opportunity cost of waiting for a product that may or may not make it to the market in six months? If there is a price difference, does the client pay for the difference in results? Is your workflow easier or more difficult with one product or another?
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free1000,
I stand corrected, you are right @ the aspects of tilt/shift. I was just so impressed @ distortion correction of H3D & 28mm.
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I am surprised that the business case is not among your selection criteria. Which camera is likely to produce what payback when? At what cost? What is the opportunity cost of waiting for a product that may or may not make it to the market in six months? If there is a price difference, does the client pay for the difference in results? Is your workflow easier or more difficult with one product or another?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99847\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Good question Raoul. The business case determined the move to MF, period, and as such is a precursor to beginning the product analysis at all. I do my business projections on a quarterly basis and my annual business review at year end. I had begun the evaluate MF early in 2006 initially but did not make the decision to move to it till my annual review YE2006.
I've already calculated costs of the MFD system ammortized across an expected product lifetime (*use* lifetime, before buying/upgrading to new gear). Even the top end MFD system will be well within expected profitability. I'm certainly not pinning my business on a single product, nor on MFD alone. I do expect it will increase certain segments of work, but I am not basing my cost/revenue projections solely on new business. I have several jobs in the pipeline that I feel will be significantly more successful, and thus generate longer term relationships and work, if I make the move to MFD now. If I don't, I still have the jobs, but I feel the work quality will be a notch down and less differentiated in the market.
I too would strongly recommend that anyone considering MFD crunch the numbers, but I'm also assuming that anyone looking at it seriously already has.
Regarding the different systems available, I should add as well that costing a product like a MFD system is not a trivial "which product will be most profitable" equation. There are soft numbers, such as opportunity costs, there are price differentials between higher and lower resolution systems. E.g. spending now on a 22MP back system would make little sense if the market shifts significantly within 2007 due to Canon entering at that resolution. Potential price shifts alone make that a less appealing option.
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Wow... what a thread/bar-fight/informative article/mosh-pit. Here's where I'm at now:- Lining up appointments with the dealers (as was the case when the thread started)
- Putting the Leaf AFi on the short list with Sinar and H. Leaning more towards the Hy6/AFi over the H.
- Thinking back to the arguments that I grew up with in the midwest: chevy/ford
- Thinking that no matter what I chose, no matter my reasons, I'll upset 1/3 of the forum members, please 1/3 and the other 1/3 won't care either way...
Regarding the issue of anonymity/real-identity: there is an excellent article on A List Apart (http://alistapart.com/articles/identitymatters) about this explaining why anonymity in forums can lead to very poor behavior. I'd say the de facto, community enforced policy of "real identity" on these forums is a very good thing.
Personally, no matter what gear each one of us uses, I value the input, experience and time that the you all share. I try to keep in mind that we're all sitting in this virtual studio together and will do my best to be straight talking yet polite, as I'd be if we were face to face.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=99817\")
When, last year, the discord, discourtesy, closures of threads and banning grew like a cholera outbreak, groups of photographers struggled to find a better way. At the time a number of alternative fora were spwaned. One from London focused on MF and LF backs and a number of us joined. This was mostly invited and started very well but faded.
Others sucked up great contributers and closed.
We at OPF took another tack based on two ideas. First accountability, everyone gave their true names. So reputation is always at stake. Next there's no closures, banning or censorship.
The OPF community is protected in that to get in, every single entrant is checked. We've excluded over 500 people for very good reason before they were even given search or posting privileges. The community has, photographers who run succesful businesses and others who are enthusiasts.
My first check in the morning is what's on the BBC, "Are we at war with someone else", then "What new idea does Michael have?" Here, there are enough smart people to self-regulate, real names or not!
Formal head to head tournament shootourts will always have bias and controversy. however, they are worth trying. I see thins differently.
Regarding the quality of backs. I believe it must be qualified by purpose style and budget and investment recapture cycle as well as company futture path of the product. We at OPF, are providing a RAW Files Photo-Bank with RAW files of all Pro cameras for sharing and reporting on.
We started with M8 DNG files. That has worked well. If you have files to provide, give a web page as well so the framework in which you use the images can be referenced. Rights usage is limited to posting in OPF and of course here with © of the actual photographer. Also add the camera and lens details if its not in the EXIF. State context of shot, ie planned end use for the series. Please PM me if you can help us.
Submission details to the RAW files Photo-Bank are [a href=\"http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=19301#post19301] here[/url].
In addition, with permisson, we'll post some for challenge for people to process however they like (and post with © attribution) to explore some of the potential of didparate files.
http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forum...ht=Central+Park (http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1684&highlight=Central+Park)
This is, I believe is one realistic and honest approach that no one can argue with. I am truly unbiased. You judge as many files as you wish. Also check backs for your own work. We have enough qualified photographers in many fields to cover a spectrum of styles.
I have myself trained with the Leaf system and am now looking at other backs.
Asher Kelman
Open Photography Forums (http://www.openphotographyforums.com)
No need to join OPF to contribute. This is only a call for RAW files with context for purpose. OPF has no pretentions to the richness of LL and I'm no guru!
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When, last year, the discord, discourtesy, closures of threads and banning grew like a cholera outbreak, groups of photographers struggled to find a better way. At the time a number of alternative fora were spwaned. One from London focused on MF and LF backs and a number of us joined. This was mostly invited and started very well but faded.
Others sucked up great contributers and closed.
We at OPF took another tack based on two ideas. First accountability, everyone gave their true names. So reputation is always at stake. Next there's no closures, banning or censorship.
The OPF community is protected in that to get in, every single entrant is checked. We've excluded over 500 people for very good reason before they were even given search or posting privileges. The community has, photographers who run succesful businesses and others who are enthusiasts.
My first check in the morning is what's on the BBC, "Are we at war with someone else", then "What new idea does Michael have?" Here, there are enough smart people to self-regulate, real names or not!
Formal head to head tournament shootourts will always have bias and controversy. however, they are worth trying. I see thins differently.
Regarding the quality of backs. I believe it must be qualified by purpose style and budget and investment recapture cycle as well as company futture path of the product. We at OPF, are providing a RAW Files Photo-Bank with RAW files of all Pro cameras for sharing and reporting on.
We started with M8 DNG files. That has worked well. If you have files to provide, give a web page as well so the framework in which you use the images can be referenced. Rights usage is limited to posting in OPF and of course here with © of the actual photographer. Also add the camera and lens details if its not in the EXIF. State context of shot, ie planned end use for the series. Please PM me if you can help us.
Submission details to the RAW files Photo-Bank are here (http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=19301#post19301).
In addition, with permisson, we'll post some for challenge for people to process however they like (and post with © attribution) to explore some of the potential of didparate files.
http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forum...ht=Central+Park (http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1684&highlight=Central+Park)
This is, I believe is one realistic and honest approach that no one can argue with. I am truly unbiased. You judge as many files as you wish. Also check backs for your own work. We have enough qualified photographers in many fields to cover a spectrum of styles.
I have myself trained with the Leaf system and am now looking at other backs.
Asher Kelman
Open Photography Forums (http://www.openphotographyforums.com)
No need to join OPF to contribute. This is only a call for RAW files with context for purpose. OPF has no pretentions to the richness of LL and I'm no guru!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99893\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
i think thats a great idea and i will send you soon some files from the emotions.....
i think thats far more interesting than this 1:1 comparations.... which invite many critics, cause they never seem to be "fair" for everybody.
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i think thats a great idea and i will send you soon some files from the emotions.....
i think thats far more interesting than this 1:1 comparations.... which invite many critics, cause they never seem to be "fair" for everybody.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99909\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Ranier,
Am I mistaken to say that the design and layout of your website and the design and layout of Tim Griffith's website are incredibly similar.
If I had hired a webdesigner and he did this sort of thing I would be pissed to say the least.
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Michael,
Rainers and Tim's website are very similar,however it's off topic.
Aren't we discussing the Hy6,H3D etc?
Websites and workstyles are copied while we speak.
It's nothing we can do about.
Cheers,
Willem.
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Michael,
Rainers and Tim's website are very similar,however it's off topic.
Aren't we discussing the Hy6,H3D etc?
Websites and workstyles are copied while we speak.
It's nothing we can do about.
Cheers,
Willem.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99960\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It's funny, I rarely read the LL forums. I recently purchased a Phase P30 and thought I would check in and read the thoughts and opinions offered. I see some names of people I know. Yair, who is honest and forthright to a fault and my friend Tim Griffith's name being mentioned.
This thread has drifted all over the place and not just about web site designs. There has been discussion about testing, reps speaking with each other, a lot has transpired and some very good information has been shared.
I do find it interesting that Tim's site may have inspired other photographers to have a site designed with a similar look and feel.
If one photographer shot, say food or portraits and the design was similar than it would not matter. But two photographers with similar subjects and styles - I would think it would be easy for a potential client to confuse one with the other. Personally, I would not want a site to look similar to someone's who was my competition.
But given the level that Tim shoots at and the awards he has won, I don't see many photographers who can compete at his level.
The P45 is a killer back for architecture and just about any type of high-end shooting. I purchased the P30 primarily for the promise of the Plus. That it will be fast enough to keep up with my aerial work and for portraits. A few months ago I was able to test Imacon, Phase and Aptus backs within a couple of hours. I would have loved to have tested a Sinar. The built in memory is a great asset for their backs. I went with Phase because I know and use Capture One with my Canons. The learning curve for any of the medium format backs is pretty tough - C1 eased the way for me. Plus, I found a dealer that offers incredible service and very fair prices.
To me, it goes beyond the back - I want and need good service and solid software that works consistently.
In closing, I think the idea of this type of test is great, but please consider the other pieces of the pie. Service, the software, dealer support and even if you have friends who use the same type of back should also be given some weight in your decision making process.
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Cameron - Some people my copy your site too, but they are going to have to bust some serious @ss to copy those shots. I love those aerials. Very cool stuff!
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I am surprised that the business case is not among your selection criteria. Which camera is likely to produce what payback when? At what cost? What is the opportunity cost of waiting for a product that may or may not make it to the market in six months? If there is a price difference, does the client pay for the difference in results? Is your workflow easier or more difficult with one product or another?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99847\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Dear Raoul,
your are absolutely right! Although you might have notied that market prices are comming together and there is not big differences anymore between same types of MFDB's.
More important for me would be to integrate the analysis of the whole workflow.
Best regards,
Thierry
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Dear Raoul,
your are absolutely right! Although you might have notied that market prices are comming together and there is not big differences anymore between same types of MFDB's.
More important for me would be to integrate the analysis of the whole workflow.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99983\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Exactly. It's a little bit like buying a new delivery truck for the farm I used to work on. The decision is first made to buy the truck (any truck), then we look at various features, loading options, capacity, etc.
We don't ask: is Ford going to be more profitable than Chevy? One or the other may be better suited, but from the perspective of buying *any* truck (vs. a car, for example) it's splitting hairs. The budget is either there or it isn't for the entire category of MFDB. If you're in that segment of the market, then the budget is there.
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about my website and the very similar design to tims page i became aware maybe 1,5 years before, after someone in rgalbraight realised that the sites are looking nearly identic.
tim griffith and me had afterward some email correspondence about it.
at that time my page already was several years online. it was original designed by a local munich webdesigner, although i finished the site alone after he didnt got the thing ready in a very long time. we agreed that i could use the fundamental design idea and finished the site, as simple as possible ( after 3 days going in macromedia help files ).
in any case i wanted to bring up a modified webpage since longer time - but i didnt took the time to do it. i will force that now, cause the discussion here is more than awkward and its not in my interest and not in my usual style to copy anybody .....
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about my website and the very similar design to tims page i became aware maybe 1,5 years before, after someone in rgalbraight realised that the sites are looking nearly identic.
tim griffith and me had afterward some email correspondence about it.
at that time my page already was several years online. it was original designed by a local munich webdesigner, although i finished the site alone after he didnt got the thing ready in a very long time. we agreed that i could use the fundamental design idea and finished the site, as simple as possible ( after 3 days going in macromedia help files ).
in any case i wanted to bring up a modified webpage since longer time - but i didnt took the time to do it. i will force that now, cause the discussion here is more than awkward and its not in my interest and not in my usual style to copy anybody .....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99990\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Ranier,
I didn't mean to upset you, but it appeared to me that some over zealous webdesigner might have copied one of the two sites and maybe you had no idea that it had been done.
I am glad to see that you have the ethical prowess to make forthcoming changes. That is admirable.
An the other topics in this thread are very interesting and make for good reading.
Thanks
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Ranier,
I didn't mean to upset you, but it appeared to me that some over zealous webdesigner might have copied one of the two sites and maybe you had no idea that it had been done.
I am glad to see that you have the ethical prowess to make forthcoming changes. That is admirable.
An the other topics in this thread are very interesting and make for good reading.
Thanks
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100011\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
what I admire also, is that when Rainer noticed the similarity after having been alerted on another forum, he contacted Tim himself immediately, and they agreed together.
I cannot imagine that a person like Rainer can ever plagiarize somebody, knowing him so very well and having worked with him.
Thierry
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what I admire also, is that when Rainer noticed the similarity after having been alerted on another forum, he contacted Tim himself immediately, and they agreed together.
I cannot imagine that a person like Rainer can ever plagiarize somebody, knowing him so very well and having worked with him.
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100013\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
it was him who contacted me, some other photographer wrote him a note and to me also.
i apologize that i was simply to lazy to change my site or to engage someone to do it,
although i had it several times in my head.
so i will make a jump now and throw it away later this day -
replacing it provisional- as so many others sites are also real "sites",- why not mine too for a while..... it wont be a drama for some weeks .
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Personally, I think Rehnniar, you shouldn't worry @ it. It is the content that counts. Remember there are lotsa people who use LiveBooks, Everium & other sites. Also your site is very clean, something your clients-Architects would like.
One does not have to reinvent the wheel, website is just to display images.
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Personally, I think Rehnniar, you shouldn't worry @ it. It is the content that counts. Remember there are lotsa people who use LiveBooks, Everium & other sites. Also your site is very clean, something your clients-Architects would like.
One does not have to reinvent the wheel, website is just to display images.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100024\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Sure right. I have looked at both sites.
The Griffith one has been built completely different (doesn't work properly in Opera). The design of both is very similar however both are almost as simple as a piece of white paper. Would be nice to have that copyrighted (or any other simple variation on that theme).
Nice thread which is going into all directions. Sorry for the sidestep Ethan
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Sure right. I have looked at both sites.
The Griffith one has been built completely different (doesn't work properly in Opera). The design of both is very similar however both are almost as simple as a piece of white paper. Would be nice to have that copyrighted (or any other simple variation on that theme).
Nice thread which is going into all directions. Sorry for the sidestep Ethan
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100030\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No problem. I'm not sure what top level category a website discussion thread goes in... not coffee corner... maybe there is a case to be made for a Business Issues forum section? Michael?
In any case, I am sensitive to the issues regarding the website design. I do about one site a month for other photographers (primarily integrated with Photoshelter) and many of them will have a favorite site that they like a lot before they come to me. It's important to me to never copy another site design. But at the same time, there's little that is completely new under the sun regarding web design. Almost everything is an evolved design or an amalgam of other styles.
Look at all the web 2.0 sites out there... glossy buttons, reflected logos. It's as much design trends as imitation. There is a fine line between the two, of course.
I bet I could find a dozen minimalist photographic sites out there that look similar but were designed entirely independently... that's not to say that designs aren't ripped off from time to time (and when they clearly are, should be changed) but the fewer design elements that there are to play with, the high the likelihood the site will appear similar.
And really, it's all about the photos on the sites in question. great work that stands out regardless.
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am i the only one here who does not think of comparing cameras or a backs as some kind of olympic games? this is not about who goes to the finishline first or who jumps highest....this is about how YOU as a photographer can get YOUR point across....this cannot be measured it can be judged but one would have to take into consideration the panel and how much YOU value that judgement.......
the "great shoot out" can be under any rules..fair ...whatever...who will judge which back is better? i have owned leaf and phase backs and i did not stop using one for the other because of artifacts? i tested all backs and found no real problems with either one....i definitely had personal favorites in regard to look, color and how it would work for me and my workflow....no test in the world could help me with that....
since we are talking about 30-40mpix backs resolution really isn't a problem anymore....some backs provide cleaner high iso....some shoot faster then others...some have better screens, some larger ones....well it depends what you shoot, make your choice accordingly!
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some backs provide cleaner high iso....some shoot faster then others...some have better screens, some larger ones....well it depends what you shoot, make your choice accordingly!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100054\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think the value of chatting about all this gear hjelping others not falling down an unseen hole
To me gear is pretty simlple but there are holes to fall into..
Mamiya - slow flash ??
HY6 lack of wide ??
P20 crop factor ??
Blad no TS ??
Sinar backs - low iso ??
Phase no current camera ??
ZD flimsy construction ??
Leaf centerfold with View cam lenses ??
H3 horrible upright ??
etc
Each will be a hole only for specific individauls and doesnt make that set up innapropriate for all
Each system will also be an excellent tool for others
Each user should make thier choice with thier eyes open
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I think the value of chatting about all this gear hjelping others not falling down an unseen hole
To me gear is pretty simlple but there are holes to fall into..
Mamiya - slow flash ??
HY6 lack of wide ??
P20 crop factor ??
Blad no TS ??
Sinar backs - low iso ??
Phase no current camera ??
ZD flimsy construction ??
Leaf centerfold with View cam lenses ??
H3 horrible upright ??
etc
Each will be a hole only for specific individauls and doesnt make that set up innapropriate for all
Each system will also be an excellent tool for others
Each user should make thier choice with thier eyes open
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100060\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
i could not agree more...but all your points/questions have been raised 100x times in this forum...do a search on th eHy6 and you will get 50 threads with the same questions and the same pros and cons....with the same people (including myself) stating the same opinions over and over.....i wish people would do a search instead of simply starting the same thing over again....
that is what is wrong with this forum: every thread turns into the same discussion.....
btw: solved the mamiya sync problem with the phase RZ adapter....rotates, no cable, shot with it yesterday....i can focus the RZ easier then the 645afdII....and for studio fashion i still prefer manual focus...
anyway..all of a sudden i have a system with a choice of bodies (small, 645af, "point&shoot" OR WLF, rotating back, 1/400sync, studio horse)....amazing range of lenses (great and CHEAP) including several T/S options (both for 645 and RZ via adapters or single lenses)......i am still waiting for the Hy6 but the wait just got a lot easier.....
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new webpage is online, although clearly not finished.... ( i will update it now slowly with individual images for the different projects ).
i wanted to throw away the menues since longer time, cause never i get them updated.
think its more practical now. feedback is welcome.....
thanks for kicking me awake.
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new webpage is online, although clearly not finished.... ( i will update it now slowly with individual images for the different projects ).
i wanted to throw away the menues since longer time, cause never i get them updated.
think its more practical now. feedback is welcome.....
thanks for kicking me awake.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=100070\")
That's exactly the look I want to copy, sorry, emulate!
I'd love to use a version for my own personal site and for OPF for the editing "Challenges".
This is so clean, it's awesome! Still, could you spare 2 little arrows too!
Asher
[a href=\"http://www.openphotographyforums.com]http://www.openphotographyforums.com[/url]
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That's exactly the look I want to copy, sorry, emulate!
I'd love to use a version for my own personal site and for OPF for the editing "Challenges".
This is so clean, it's awesome! Still, could you spare 2 little arrows too!
Asher
http://www.openphotographyforums.com (http://www.openphotographyforums.com)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100079\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
thanks asher,
you can feel free.
( but never use three single lines
on white backgrounds anymore ( just kidding )).....
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i could not agree more...but all your points/questions have been raised 100x times in this forum...do a search on th eHy6 and you will get 50 threads with the same questions and the same pros and cons....with the same people (including myself) stating the same opinions over and over.....i wish people would do a search instead of simply starting the same thing over again....
that is what is wrong with this forum: every thread turns into the same discussion.....
btw: solved the mamiya sync problem with the phase RZ adapter....rotates, no cable, shot with it yesterday....i can focus the RZ easier then the 645afdII....and for studio fashion i still prefer manual focus...
anyway..all of a sudden i have a system with a choice of bodies (small, 645af, "point&shoot" OR WLF, rotating back, 1/400sync, studio horse)....amazing range of lenses (great and CHEAP) including several T/S options (both for 645 and RZ via adapters or single lenses)......i am still waiting for the Hy6 but the wait just got a lot easier.....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100065\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm not sure if you are implying that I raised questions that could have been answered by a search. I suspect not and that you are referring to the rest of the subsequent thread, but I wanted to clarify that my original post stated explicitly that it was meant as a glimpse into how the existing forum threads (which I've been monitoring and searching for a year and a half), LL reviews, and actual real world local dealer experience were informing my purchase decisions. My primary intent was to provide information (personal buying experience "in progress") as something that might be useful to Thierry, other suppliers and potential buyers in a similar situation.
Yet, as you state, the same issues do come up in many threads, this included, regardless of the initial post. And assuming that there are "right answers" to these MFDB issues (a point that I think many would debate in itself) then it certainly is frustrating to see the same questions asked repeatedly.
One solution might be a persistent FAQ of common questions and answers to MFDB issues. Perhaps you (and or others) would volunteer to put something together? This is a sincere suggestion in the spirit of the the LL community. Your point is valid and it might be useful to have such a summary. The only issue I see there is finding agreement on what the correct answers to all frequently asked questions are. Might even be a job for a wiki where multiple viewpoints could be stated.
Morgan's list is a great summary (big thanks, Morgan). If there was a sticky FAQ or a wiki-like sub site with information like that and more (which could include alternate view points or pros/cons) it would go a long way to mitigating the repetitive posts and threads.
As much as we may want it to be, forum searches before posting (which should always be encouraged, of course) are simply not a single solution to the issue. A sticky, locked FAQ "read before posting" thread might actually help, if agreement on its contents could be reached. From what I see on the forums, however, that's a big "if".
Any other solutions?
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I'm not sure if you are implying that I raised questions that could have been answered by a search. I suspect not and that you are referring to the rest of the subsequent thread, but I wanted to clarify that my original post stated explicitly that it was meant as a glimpse into how the existing forum threads (which I've been monitoring and searching for a year and a half), LL reviews, and actual real world local dealer experience were informing my purchase decisions. My primary intent was to provide information (personal buying experience "in progress") as something that might be useful to Thierry, other suppliers and potential buyers in a similar situation.
Yet, as you state, the same issues do come up in many threads, this included, regardless of the initial post. And assuming that there are "right answers" to these MFDB issues (a point that I think many would debate in itself) then it certainly is frustrating to see the same questions asked repeatedly.
One solution might be a persistent FAQ of common questions and answers to MFDB issues. Perhaps you (and or others) would volunteer to put something together? This is a sincere suggestion in the spirit of the the LL community. Your point is valid and it might be useful to have such a summary. The only issue I see there is finding agreement on what the correct answers to all frequently asked questions are. Might even be a job for a wiki where multiple viewpoints could be stated.
Morgan's list is a great summary (big thanks, Morgan). If there was a sticky FAQ or a wiki-like sub site with information like that and more (which could include alternate view points or pros/cons) it would go a long way to mitigating the repetitive posts and threads.
As much as we may want it to be, forum searches before posting (which should always be encouraged, of course) are simply not a single solution to the issue. A sticky, locked FAQ "read before posting" thread might actually help, if agreement on its contents could be reached. From what I see on the forums, however, that's a big "if".
Any other solutions?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100134\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I would love to receive all and any personal opinions as to what works foryour particular end use or your clients. I'll be happy to maintain an edited review which I could repost for opinions at intervals. In OPF, we have Pro photographers who already have their systems and others who are really are flummexed!
However, it's all a matter of whether you would be so kind as to share with me your own experences, just a line or two with an ocasional image if you want.
This is something that is really needed. So I'd be delighted if there is support.
Asher Kelman
http:.//www.openphotographyforums.com
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I would love to receive all and any personal opinions as to what works foryour particular end use or your clients. I'll be happy to maintain an edited review which I could repost for opinions at intervals. In OPF, we have Pro photographers who already have their systems and others who are really are flummexed!
However, it's all a matter of whether you would be so kind as to share with me your own experences, just a line or two with an ocasional image if you want.
This is something that is really needed. So I'd be delighted if there is support.
Asher Kelman
http:.//www.openphotographyforums.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100136\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Not sure if it's useful, but here's a more complete list of criteria I'm using to evaluate systems under consideration. This would really only be useful in an online database (I'm spreadsheeting it, but it's grown past a good size for spreadsheet viewing), but may be useful as what david allen calls a "trigger list" for feedback purposes. I've added "use cases" to this now, though for me personally I'm only considering in studio. Clearly there is overlap between the use cases as well.
Basics
Model
Pixels
Sensor Format
Multiplier/Crop Factor
ISO Range
Capture Speed
Sync Speed
Known Sensor Anomalies
Shooting Mode
Battery Specs/Avg.duration
Image Storage
Shutter speed range
Body
Ergonomics
Construction
Display Type
Film Back Cost
Histogram
IR Filter
Host Connection Type
Dimensions
Weight
Viewfinder options
Back specific
View camera adapter cost
Dealer issues
Dealer Support notes
Spare during Repair?
Warranty period and details
Software/File Formats
File Format Support
Capture software eval
Integartion with Aperture/Lightroom
DNG support/issues
Bit Depth
Software known issues
Lenses
Lens Selection
Number of lenses available for system, non model specific
Number of lenses available for system, model specific
Lens deficiencies/issues
T/S availability
System Cost
Use Cases
In studio use +/-
On location use +/-
Architectural use +/-
Portrait use +/-
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May I suggest that "Use Cases" be the first thing to consider? For example, for an architectural photographer like me, the P30, regardless of its many other positive features, is simply not a choice.
I generally shoot only 15~20 images a day, so speed and workflow issues are not relevant at all for me, though for a fashion photographer, speeds of 2s per frame would be a deal breaker.
Cheers,
Kumar
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May I suggest that "Use Cases" be the first thing to consider? For example, for an architectural photographer like me, the P30, regardless of its many other positive features, is simply not a choice.
I generally shoot only 15~20 images a day, so speed and workflow issues are not relevant at all for me, though for a fashion photographer, speeds of 2s per frame would be a deal breaker.
Cheers,
Kumar
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100140\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Good point Kumar. They aren't ordered yet and they also mix quantitative/qualitative data. They could even be "weighted" to come up with a scoring system, but I'm not sure how i'd do that effectively...
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My primary intent was to provide information (personal buying experience "in progress") as something that might be useful to Thierry, other suppliers and potential buyers in a similar situation.
Any other solutions?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100134\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes, Ethan!
This first goal has been reached, concerning myself and Sinar: we have taken good notice of your points and what seems important in a purchase decision process.
Thanks again for that!
Thierry
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They could even be "weighted" to come up with a scoring system, but I'm not sure how i'd do that effectively...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100142\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
:: Excellent Idea ::
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new webpage is online, although clearly not finished.... ( i will update it now slowly with individual images for the different projects ).
i wanted to throw away the menues since longer time, cause never i get them updated.
think its more practical now. feedback is welcome.....
thanks for kicking me awake.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100070\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
that's a sick web page. Sick= great. I really like the imagery. Great stuff you show and the design is well thought through as well. I bookmarked it.
thank you for showing
regrds
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that's a sick web page. Sick= great. I really like the imagery. Great stuff you show and the design is well thought through as well. I bookmarked it.
thank you for showing
regrds
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100222\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
... thank you ...
tomorrow 13 hours in airplane.
will have time to proceed.....
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... thank you ...
tomorrow 13 hours in airplane.
will have time to proceed.....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100226\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
hi Rainer,
i find it fantastic as well. Especially, knowing you and your work for quite a time, I could not understand these attacks.
Great work!
And safe journey tomorrow, wherever you go.
Thierry
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hi Rainer,
i find it fantastic as well. Especially, knowing you and your work for quite a time, I could not understand these attacks.
Great work!
And safe journey tomorrow, wherever you go.
Thierry
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=100228\")
We've started to receive purpose-specific RAW image files for free doownload with limited license and © info.
Just supply subject/industry specific shots taken accordfing to usual standards, but *** shot not needed. Just good focus and exposure. Add aperture and shutter speed and lens name if not in EXIF.
Send to me RAWS via htto://www.you sendit.com.
We are testing the search interface and will have a beta up shortly.
[a href=\"http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2129]Asher Kelman[/url]
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Yes, Ethan!
This first goal has been reached, concerning myself and Sinar: we have taken good notice of your points and what seems important in a purchase decision process.
Thanks again for that!
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100170\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks for that Thierry, and many thanks also for addressing the other issues with the local folks in such a hands on manner. I've had a much better follow up from the local Sinar guy here.
Ethan
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hi Rainer,
i find it fantastic as well. Especially, knowing you and your work for quite a time, I could not understand these attacks.
Great work!
And safe journey tomorrow, wherever you go.
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100228\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
This would be a question for the Sinar expert. As Hy6 is coming out and I believe it will in matter of time. I am currently using P45 with Contax 645 and Alpa SWA12 with satisfied results. However, since Contax is a system that effective, while not quite alive, but I guess I will be OK with 2 extra body available to take place. While avoiding a system that no longer evolve, I recently also invested a H3D39 system and 4 lenses so may be when the Hy6 come out, may be I can decide to switch from Contax to Hy6. Anyway, the back on H3D39 can also work on other medium/large format platform and powered by the Hasselblad's image bank, is it making the H3D39 back useful on the coming Hy6 with Hasselblad's i-adaptor? Just as Leaf and Sinar back will be or will not??
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hi Khun K,
there is no adapter for the Hasselblad backs, as much as there is no adapter for Phase One backs to be used on the Hy6.
Thanks, and where are you in Bangkok?
Thierry
This would be a question for the Sinar expert. As Hy6 is coming out and I believe it will in matter of time. is it making the H3D39 back useful on the coming Hy6 with Hasselblad's i-adaptor? Just as Leaf and Sinar back will be or will not??
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100812\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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hi Khun K,
there is no adapter for the Hasselblad backs, as much as there is no adapter for Phase One backs to be used on the Hy6.
Thanks, and where are you in Bangkok?
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100814\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I live in Thonglor area, my design studio nearby the intersection of Onnut and Srinakarin road. As it is said, my work is primary industrial design although we do provide commercial/industrial photography services. I have used P25 and then P45 for over 3 years, and the new H3D39 is coming in 1-2 weeks.
I was using 6008 for 6X6 and Contax 645 for 6X4.5 when I was still using film.
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I live in Thonglor area, my design studio nearby the intersection of Onnut and Srinakarin road. As it is said, my work is primary industrial design although we do provide commercial/industrial photography services. I have used P25 and then P45 for over 3 years, and the new H3D39 is coming in 1-2 weeks.
I was using 6008 for 6X6 and Contax 645 for 6X4.5 when I was still using film.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100815\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
whats your real name or do you want to hold it secret? was shooting 2005+6 six months at suvarnabhumi airport and lived closed to your studio, as well as thierry.....
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whats your real name or do you want to hold it secret? was shooting 2005+6 six months at suvarnabhumi airport and lived closed to your studio, as well as thierry.....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100823\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
There is no secret, my name as printed on my passport is Kaisern but everyone call me Khun K and that's why. Name is just something referring to a person but I have no problem to be called in real name, just that in Thailand almost everyone carries a nickname and often use in public. I heard from Thierry that you are coming and may be it won't be a bad idea to have a cup of coffee together. Thierry is may be just 10 minutes from my studio, but to remind you, it is not a photo studio, it is more a design studio.
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There is no secret, my name as printed on my passport is Kaisern but everyone call me Khun K and that's why. Name is just something referring to a person but I have no problem to be called in real name, just that in Thailand almost everyone carries a nickname and often use in public. I heard from Thierry that you are coming and may be it won't be a bad idea to have a cup of coffee together. Thierry is may be just 10 minutes from my studio, but to remind you, it is not a photo studio, it is more a design studio.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=101011\")
great idea. ... we will do so.
i did ( and do ) a lot of design photography for " DIE NEUE SAMMLUNG ", one of the worldest most important and bggest design collections.
[a href=\"http://www.tangential.de/tangential-de/_html-seiten/pages-03_die-neue-sammlung/index.htm]http://www.tangential.de/tangential-de/_ht...mlung/index.htm[/url]
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I am currently using P45 with Contax 645 and Alpa SWA12 with satisfied results.
...
While avoiding a system that no longer evolve, I recently also invested a H3D39 system and 4 lenses ...
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=100812\")
When you've had a chance to use the H3D39, I'd be very interested to hear what you think of it compared to the P45.
Thanks,
Robin Casady
[a href=\"http://www.robincasady.com]http://www.robincasady.com[/url]
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When you've had a chance to use the H3D39, I'd be very interested to hear what you think of it compared to the P45.
Thanks,
Robin Casady
http://www.robincasady.com (http://www.robincasady.com)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101221\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You can count on it but I suspect how usefult the test will be since the camera system is different, with one being Contax with Contax lenses and some Hasselblad V lenses and one with H body+H lenses, and different raw converter as well. I will run some test and may be just to give some personal opinion.
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You can count on it but I suspect how usefult the test will be since the camera system is different, with one being Contax with Contax lenses and some Hasselblad V lenses and one with H body+H lenses, and different raw converter as well. I will run some test and may be just to give some personal opinion.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=101471\")
Personal experience is what I'd like to hear. Shooting experience, ergonomics, how well the system functions, and workflow issues interest me as well as results. What and how you shoot would be an important aspect as well.
Thanks,
Robin Casady
[a href=\"http://www.robincasady.com]http://www.robincasady.com[/url]
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Personal experience is what I'd like to hear. Shooting experience, ergonomics, how well the system functions, and workflow issues interest me as well as results. What and how you shoot would be an important aspect as well.
Thanks,
Robin Casady
http://www.robincasady.com (http://www.robincasady.com)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101485\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Ok, I just took delivery yesterday of my H3D39 along HCD 28/4, 35/3.5, 50-110/3.5-4.5, 100/2.2 and 120/4, I eventually bought one more lens than I originally ordered. I can only do best to compare it against my beloved (and still beloved Contax 645) and the 500 series and 205TCC.
The screen & View finder - without scientific measurement, the H3D probably has bighter viewfinder than the Contax, of the same apaerture. Just a little, so for example, the 100/2.2 looks as bright as 80/2 on the scren. The rubber armor on H3D viewfinder is a generation superior than the Contax 645, and quite comfortable to use. It is nice to look thru the viewfinder wihtout the usual darkened masking. I remembered PME5 on the 205TCC is very bright as well, but the memory a few years should not count. As I am more used to the layout of the Contax 645, the information on H3D view finder although quite clearly layout, it does not look better to be.
Grip - The H3D grip feel solid but wide on one side, thin on the other, I would say the Contax 645 has superior grip and the camera just felt much more balanced on your hand. Especially the H system lenses are in general larger and heavier than the Contax, the tradition design excellence on Contax camera holds up well against the H system. The Contax also have the power grip but that something it is too big, especially when I have to attach a Bron-color ring flash, that I will always like to remove the power grip. Without it, Contax is better, with it, I consider it a personal preference option, not sure if H will have one later or not. I suspect they will.
The ovrall control - Without question, Contax is way superior than the H for me. I like to be able to adjust the aperture ring, although Contax does not have 1/2 or 1/3 click, I am actually able to just adjust the aperture ring between the full stop setting and able to set the aperture in 1/2 or 1/3 stop by look thru the view finder. This is useful when you are reaching the defraction limit of a lens but want to get as much as DOF then it is useful in such way. H is electronically controlled so you can set it thru dials/wheels, something not my preference. The tradtion dial and mechanical setting is more useful for me. Anyone with reasonable knowledge in photogpraphy can take control of Contax 645 in very short time, I suppose they will take a much longer time on H to figure it out. But since H is designed for professionals, I think eventually everyone can master the control eventually.
The integration of back and camera - there is a mixed feeling on this. On contax 645, since I have been using the system for close to 10 years and many years with DB, I do not think it is that necessary to integrate them together in such way H3D does. I am absolutely happy the way Contax and P45 works, all the essential photographic setting thru camera and all the image setting exclusively thru the back, why not! With H3D39, sometime you take a pause to think either the seeting you are looking for to be on the back, or on the camera. The only advantage here is really you do not have to power up the camera and back separately. The integration for system communication today can be done by electronic contacts, I don't see Contax is inferior in this regard. Especially when the battery continue to improve everyday, having separate battery in camera or DB is not mattered to me.
The lenses and AF - I have always asked, if one can use Leica M to focus quickly, they can do that on medium format, especailly for the camera such as Contax 645. So the AF focusing speed on Contax never bother me, and the AF bottom on the grip just make operating the camera a second nature, perfect. The damping of manual focus ring on both system is equal but I like the way Contax lens offers, you can immediately adjust the aperture value while continue to shoot, rather than a finer turning the wheels. Contax just offers more intuitive operation than H. AF on H is faster and does not hunt as much, but it is also noisier. AF speed is not that important to me. May be one day my eye gets worse this would be mattered, I hope this won;t happen too soon.
Conclusion - H does not make Contax 645 obsolete. With Contax 645 and P45, somehow you are doing only what is essential for getting the picture needed. No second guess. And the system works beautifully, AF with reasonably good speed, and quieter. Just smoothly! H is more complicated. Eventually you will be abel to control the camera flawlessly, with a learning curve, and more dial and wheels. I think Contax 645 has more elegant approach to the design of the system, not making the system overally complicate, but still capable of doing everything you need - except - 1/125 sync speed is slow in certain regard, and that's one major reason I end up added H3D39 to my system. The other reason is the 28mm HCD lens and its claimed DAC function, which if it works out as claimed, will give a nice alternative to my Alpa system yet able to focus closely wiht high precision and able to view the DOF. While the my Contax system can go all the way to 35mm (and to 30mm with MAM-1 adapter and Hasselblad CF 30mm fisheye), it does not offer 28mm, which sometimes I need. I do not intend to add the tele lens for H because my Contax lenses can take care of that.
I hope later on I can give you more personal test information for image quality, after all, all the above comparison is subjective, sometimes not fair to compare a system of 10 years old and 1 day old.
On the aesthetic issue, as I am an industrial designer that could not resist myself to comment, that Contax 645 has a smart, sophisticate and comtemporary look, while H3D39 looks like a serious and capable machine. Contax looked to me a design made by photographer, and H design made by an typical industrial designer/engineer.
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xx
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Dear Khun_K
You are putting it right on the spot this is also my experience with the two systems.
The mirror slap is a big issue for me - how do you compare the two (I have my opinion but would like to hear yours).
I don’t think you will see much difference in lens quality; both systems are excellent, I think it comes down to personal taste (bokeh etc.).
I am sure you will like the lens correction software from Flexcolor it actually works.
Best
Torben
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=103950\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I would say I prefer the mirror slap on Contax is softer than on H3D. It did not bother me much though. I have no problem getting shape picture handheld at low speed from Contax and suppose it is OK with H3D, I shall be able to confirm it once I run more tests.
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xx
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i can share your experience with the H system....
which is why i have such a hard time with it...how can the latest, most expensive, supposedly most advanced camera system fail and compare unfavorably to much older and cheaper systems?
this is exactly why i am (and many people) so excited about the Hy6....a logical step up from an already very good camera (the 6008).....
there is no reason to re-invent the wheel...just make some things better, faster, smarter, lighter...not heavier, less ergonomic, more complicated and put in the worst mirror slap since the pentax 67.....
now if some one can figure out how to put a multispot AF system available in every sub 1000$ camera into a 10000 system, we might actually get useable MF AF.....
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i can share your experience with the H system....
which is why i have such a hard time with it...how can the latest, most expensive, supposedly most advanced camera system fail and compare unfavorably to much older and cheaper systems?
this is exactly why i am (and many people) so excited about the Hy6....a logical step up from an already very good camera (the 6008).....
there is no reason to re-invent the wheel...just make some things better, faster, smarter, lighter...not heavier, less ergonomic, more complicated and put in the worst mirror slap since the pentax 67.....
now if some one can figure out how to put a multispot AF system available in every sub 1000$ camera into a 10000 system, we might actually get useable MF AF.....
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=104024\")
Personally, I can't get that excited about the HY6. For one it's not on the shelf to hold or even shoot, but I think all of these propreitary systems run the risk of killing off medium format.
I know all the makers are looking for an advantage and trying to find a way to move people to their digital backs, as the digital back is where the money is, but once you limit us to all in ones especially with lens options, the lure of medium format gets even more expensive, more complicated and quite frankly less appealing.
If it's true and all the profit is in the digital portion of the platform then make a better back rather than trying to use the camera as a lure, or a hammer to move us to a certain system.
Give us open non proprietary file formats, GOOD/large lcds, easy tethering, fast processing, open image formats and reliable, let me repeat this reliable steady tethering and processing software along with glitch free use.
My first digitial back went in for repair three times and replacement once. For $30,000 it should be more reliable than a $3,995 Canon.
Now my second digital back, the P-30 has been error free and is as easy to use as the Canons,
[a href=\"http://www.russellrutherford.com/recent_miami/]http://www.russellrutherford.com/recent_miami/[/url]
except for the lcd and it is a step in the right direction, though it took a long time for Phase to come out with a back this easy to use with great color.
I hope all the manufacturer's survive, but I don't have high hopes that limitiing us to one camera one back business models will be a success.
JR
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Personally, I can't get that excited about the HY6. For one it's not on the shelf to hold or even shoot, but I think all of these propreitary systems run the risk of killing off medium format.
I know all the makers are looking for an advantage and trying to find a way to move people to their digital backs, as the digital back is where the money is, but once you limit us to all in ones especially with lens options, the lure of medium format gets even more expensive, more complicated and quite frankly less appealing.
If it's true and all the profit is in the digital portion of the platform then make a better back rather than trying to use the camera as a lure, or a hammer to move us to a certain system.
Give us open non proprietary file formats, GOOD/large lcds, easy tethering, fast processing, open image formats and reliable, let me repeat this reliable steady tethering and processing software along with glitch free use.
My first digitial back went in for repair three times and replacement once. For $30,000 it should be more reliable than a $3,995 Canon.
Now my second digital back, the P-30 has been error free and is as easy to use as the Canons,
http://www.russellrutherford.com/recent_miami/ (http://www.russellrutherford.com/recent_miami/)
except for the lcd and it is a step in the right direction, though it took a long time for Phase to come out with a back this easy to use with great color.
I hope all the manufacturer's survive, but I don't have high hopes that limitiing us to one camera one back business models will be a success.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104036\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
the reason why i get excited about the Hy6 are schneider lenses....and that my experiences with the 6008 have been very good....BUT if i can't use my P30 on it i simply won't buy into the system....
i agree 100% with james, the most important thing is easy error free WORKING hardware and software that delivers great color and files.....the P30 is the best thing in that regard out there and the most flexible.....
with the upgrade to the P+ the screen issue might even get somehow resolved....but i am not really counting on that....
i find it interesting how many people use "obsolete" systems like hassV, contax or even mamiya with these DMF backs....and the only "new" system has some shortcoming of the old systems and even some new ones.....the closed system thing is pure desperation IMO.....
just like with film: i would have changed cameras to keep shooting with the film stock i wanted....simple as that....so why would i now let myself get forced into a back? because of the shiny new camera? sorry, won't happen....
here we are bitching about phase's screen for the 1000th time, but how about fixing what is "wrong" with MF? at least the Hy6 is working towards a new mirror construction to dampen the bounce....we will see how it works, i will probably be better then the 6008, which was pretty good for a 6x6 mirror.....
again: multi zone AF? is it really that hard?
still i am excited about the evolution of the 6008, i am still positive about someday using my P30 on it....
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the reason why i get excited about the Hy6 are schneider lenses....and that my experiences with the 6008 have been very good....BUT if i can't use my P30 on it i simply won't buy into the system....
i agree 100% with james, the most important thing is easy error free WORKING hardware and software that delivers great color and files.....the P30 is the best thing in that regard out there and the most flexible.....
with the upgrade to the P+ the screen issue might even get somehow resolved....but i am not really counting on that....
i find it interesting how many people use "obsolete" systems like hassV, contax or even mamiya with these DMF backs....and the only "new" system has some shortcoming of the old systems and even some new ones.....the closed system thing is pure desperation IMO.....
just like with film: i would have changed cameras to keep shooting with the film stock i wanted....simple as that....so why would i now let myself get forced into a back? because of the shiny new camera? sorry, won't happen....
here we are bitching about phase's screen for the 1000th time, but how about fixing what is "wrong" with MF? at least the Hy6 is working towards a new mirror construction to dampen the bounce....we will see how it works, i will probably be better then the 6008, which was pretty good for a 6x6 mirror.....
again: multi zone AF? is it really that hard?
still i am excited about the evolution of the 6008, i am still positive about someday using my P30 on it....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104063\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Paul, I'm also a Rollei fan having had a 6001 several years ago. I have been looking at the 6008AF Bundle with a P20 back. Will the 6008 not accept the P30?
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Paul, I'm also a Rollei fan having had a 6001 several years ago. I have been looking at the 6008AF Bundle with a P20 back. Will the 6008 not accept the P30?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104082\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
i used to have the rollei P20 bundle....great, great package, wonderful....but unfortunately the P30 does not work with it....the phase backs are just a touch too wide to be retateable on the 6008....so no P30 on the 6008....that is why i am on mamiya (645, RZ) right now.....i am sure that i will get a chance to put the P30 on a Hy6 one day....until then i am happy with the mamiya set-up.....now that i have the RZ with 1/400 and the P30 rotating, i am actually very happy....
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Will the 6008 not accept the P30?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104082\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Phase One decided not to support the Rollei 6000 mount. The one exception is the P20 back which was sold by Rollei in a 6000 mount.
Sinar and Imacon backs will work on the Rollei.
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Personally, I can't get that excited about the HY6. For one it's not on the shelf to hold or even shoot, but I think all of these propreitary systems run the risk of killing off medium format.
I know all the makers are looking for an advantage and trying to find a way to move people to their digital backs, as the digital back is where the money is, but once you limit us to all in ones especially with lens options, the lure of medium format gets even more expensive, more complicated and quite frankly less appealing.
If it's true and all the profit is in the digital portion of the platform then make a better back rather than trying to use the camera as a lure, or a hammer to move us to a certain system.
Give us open non proprietary file formats, GOOD/large lcds, easy tethering, fast processing, open image formats and reliable, let me repeat this reliable steady tethering and processing software along with glitch free use.
My first digitial back went in for repair three times and replacement once. For $30,000 it should be more reliable than a $3,995 Canon.
Now my second digital back, the P-30 has been error free and is as easy to use as the Canons,
http://www.russellrutherford.com/recent_miami/ (http://www.russellrutherford.com/recent_miami/)
except for the lcd and it is a step in the right direction, though it took a long time for Phase to come out with a back this easy to use with great color.
I hope all the manufacturer's survive, but I don't have high hopes that limitiing us to one camera one back business models will be a success.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104036\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
If my initial expression about H3D sounded disappointed, I did not mean it. By all means it is a series and looks like a well engineered camera, and it works. Just that I was much more used to more simplified layout, no guessing work and intuitive to work with camera such as a Contax 645. But thtat does not make H3D a bad camera, or a worse camera. its handling is still way better than 205TCC, which is a lot havier, the grip hurt than hand if you to shoot handheld and so on.
The H3D is a proof of an intention to have the camera worked as a custom-everything camera, and its ability to do all such features is without question welcomed, perhaps there is no way to get around it to reach such a goal and has to settle for such a complicate navigation system. Spend some time I think everyone can master it. I am sure I will.
Ergonomic and control is just very subjective. On H3D manual it says the manu navigation is similar that of a cell phone was not a bad anology. Some people bother to learn everything the modern cellphone can offer, some just use it as a phone. Leica M8 sets a good example what a navigation system can be, but it cannot have all those feature of a Canon 1Ds MK2. They are different, and there are many different cameras for many different people, Contax 645, H3D just among them. I am certain with al the years of engineering excellence, the coming Hy6 will without doubt a nice one, perhaps the new standard.
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I would like to remind here that Sinar has opened a "FAQ" tread on its homepage (www.sinarcameras.com) in the "Forum" part: login or register (5 minutes process) and ask all your questions. They shall be answered within 24 hours.
Thierry
I am certain with al the years of engineering excellence, the coming Hy6 will without doubt a nice one, perhaps the new standard.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104122\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Khun,
You may want to go into the custom menu and switch the thumb wheel to control the aperture and the index finger wheel to control the shutter. It seems a little counter intuitive, but a day of shooting and your set. You can keep your finger on the shutter and change the aperture with your thumb.
Best of luck with your H3
R
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Personally i can't get too excited about the HY6 either. The 6000 series Rollei never took off in the UK at all due to the poor back-up service by the Rollei importers, the ridiculous pricing - until they woke up, and the iffy reputation for build quality of the bodies. As a pro system it was never taken seriously in the UK as not one single rental house i can think of carried it.
Considering that the lens range was very special and the camera offered much, it was a shame, however in the UK at least, once the poor reputation had been established it was downhill from there, not even the aggressive pricing adopted could hide the change of ownership/distributor every year.
I do hope that they manage to pull it around, but personally i think the Contax system even in its present dead state, is still very hard to beat.
Gary.
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Personally i can't get too excited about the HY6 either. The 6000 series Rollei never took off in the UK at all due to the poor back-up service by the Rollei importers, the ridiculous pricing - until they woke up, and the iffy reputation for build quality of the bodies. As a pro system it was never taken seriously in the UK as not one single rental house i can think of carried it.
Considering that the lens range was very special and the camera offered much, it was a shame, however in the UK at least, once the poor reputation had been established it was downhill from there, not even the aggressive pricing adopted could hide the change of ownership/distributor every year.
I do hope that they manage to pull it around, but personally i think the Contax system even in its present dead state, is still very hard to beat.
Gary.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104173\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Not that I have a dog in this fight, because I will probably use the Contax(s) until they stop making backs for them, but the killer of any system is the availability in rental.
Off and on I've seen Rollei come into a market with the 6000 series, make a big splash and promise lower prices, service, rental support, etc. etc., only to disappear behind a website of point and shoots.
Maybe this time it will be diffferent, but I suggest that the moment this camera hits the dealers shelf it should be in every major rental house with a full line of lenses and accessories.
On a professional level, the word on the street can make or break a system. At one point I got interested in the Mamiya 645, but so many rental houses were sending them back for repair that I and many others just passed.
That and the obvious plasticy feel of the lenses and no removeable prism.
Still, it seems confusing how the HY6 will work. If someone is shooting a Leaf branded HY6 but needs to rent a second body does the Sinar Hy6 work with a Leaf back, or vice-versa?
Digital capture is already complicated and confusing enough, not to have the camera also become propiretary and manufacturer's pdf spec sheets and website claims mean very little when you begin production.
Right now I own Phase and Leaf backs and obviously this would take the HY6 out of my equation.
I guess time will tell how this all shakes out.
JR
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Currently the only thing that looks really appealing to me about the Hy6/Afi system are the lenses.
I will just wait and see. For the time being I will settle with what I have (unless I get convinced by real good hard arguments).
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Dear James,
this question is one among many others asked today on the special FAQ tread specially opened on Sinar's homepage. It should be answered within 24 hours (weekend in-between!).
May I invite you to login to the Sinar forum and see the answers there.
Best regards,
Thierry
Still, it seems confusing how the HY6 will work. If someone is shooting a Leaf branded HY6 but needs to rent a second body does the Sinar Hy6 work with a Leaf back, or vice-versa?
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104206\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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here we are bitching about phase's screen for the 1000th time, but how about fixing what is "wrong" with MF? at least the Hy6 is working towards a new mirror construction to dampen the bounce....we will see how it works, i will probably be better then the 6008, which was pretty good for a 6x6 mirror.....
again: multi zone AF? is it really that hard?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104063\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
i thought i read the 6008 had 3 point af? i had assumed that the hy6 would used the same 3 point af?
paul
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I have been on the sinar forum and asked a few questions, but I was most surprised at the low volume of questions being asked, an indication of dwindling interest in the camera? I've a feeling that it may be another Contax, good camera system, but just couldn't make it in the tough market. A pity, as hasselblad needs the competition.
I've edited my earlier post as I found Thierry's clarification post regarding the Sinar Hy6/Leaf AFi. Turns out that you will be able to interchange backs between them. http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=14503 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=14503)
Apologies for the rant.
Lastly, I can't see phase not developing an adapter for this camera, they need to sell as many backs as they can, so, the Hy6/Afi may be in your equation.
-Nik
Still, it seems confusing how the HY6 will work. If someone is shooting a Leaf branded HY6 but needs to rent a second body does the Sinar Hy6 work with a Leaf back, or vice-versa?
Digital capture is already complicated and confusing enough, not to have the camera also become propiretary and manufacturer's pdf spec sheets and website claims mean very little when you begin production.
Right now I own Phase and Leaf backs and obviously this would take the HY6 out of my equation.
I guess time will tell how this all shakes out.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104206\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Agreed, I'm getting less and less excited with the Hy6, many people are still confused regarding just how it's going to work and with what camera/back. When announced at Photokina I saw great promise in the camera as I was under the common impression that it would be a camera body that would accept any back (picking up from where Hasselblad left off), have a decent selection of quality glass with good flash sync speed, decent mirror slap, 645&6x6 film backs and still be in production for a few years! But now the roadmap makes it look not too different to the H3D, ie - you buy everything from the same source (Leaf or Sinar at this point), otherwise it won't work. Why the Rolliflex branded version won't be released in the USA is confusing too. I have been on the sinar forum and asked a few questions, but I was most surprised at the low volume of questions being asked, an indication of dwindling interest in the camera? I've a feeling that it may be another Contax, good camera system, but just couldn't make it in the tough market. A pity, as hasselblad needs the competition.
Hi
Been away in NYC for 3 weeks, just got back. Canon just announced the 1DD MIII & they will have more new cameras this year. I still enjoy MFD but....., the market share of MF has dropped a hell of a lot in the past 7 years. The Hy6 is a brave move & I would rent it, but would I buy it, that is the question? In the US your fees are higher in the larger markets ($10,000.00/ day USD). In Sydney you will be lucky to get $4500.00/shot( AUD) & the equipment is more expensive because our dollar is worth less than the USD. I doubt Canada would be any different as I am orginally from Canada. I expect that the Hy6 will be similar in price to the Hasselblad. So what is Phase One going to do??? They are not part of the H3D or Hy6 platform. Maby they will have to do a deal with Mamiya??? The MFD is not a big market now & personally I think it is a large part due to Canon. MFD is a small market & I still think it has better quality but for most photographers these days do they really care? Somehow I think Hasselblad will be the no#1 player if not the only player left in MFD. Any comments?
Thanks Denis
montalbetticampbell.com
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Hi
Been away in NYC for 3 weeks, just got back. Canon just announced the 1DD MIII & they will have more new cameras this year. I still enjoy MFD but....., the market share of MF has dropped a hell of a lot in the past 7 years. The Hy6 is a brave move & I would rent it, but would I buy it, that is the question? In the US your fees are higher in the larger markets ($10,000.00/ day USD). In Sydney you will be lucky to get $4500.00/shot( AUD) & the equipment is more expensive because our dollar is worth less than the USD. I doubt Canada would be any different as I am orginally from Canada. I expect that the Hy6 will be similar in price to the Hasselblad. So what is Phase One going to do??? They are not part of the H3D or Hy6 platform. Maby they will have to do a deal with Mamiya??? The MFD is not a big market now & personally I think it is a large part due to Canon. MFD is a small market & I still think it has better quality but for most photographers these days do they really care? Somehow I think Hasselblad will be the no#1 player if not the only player left in MFD. Any comments?
Thanks Denis
montalbetticampbell.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104513\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm not in the camera making or camera selling business, but I think as photographers we talk a lot more about these cameras and availability than Phase does.
To begin with medium format cameras have always been 10 year purchases at least with film and I don't see why they should be any more or less long lived with digital, unless someone finds a way to make them purposely obsolete with firmware or software changes.
I doubt seriously if my three contax bodies will not be working as well in a decade as they do today, but let's say the don't and let's even take this further and say all medium format cameras stopped production today.
With the current supply of RZ's, blads both H and V systems, Mamiya and what's left of the Contax supply I doubt if anyone would really go without a camera for a long time.
But since you brought up Phase, I believe if they had introduced the P-30 about the time of the original 1ds, they're would have been a lot less photographers move to Canon from their medium format cameras.
I'm not pimping anything and own Canon's, Nikons, Leaf and Phase and have owned Kodak and Fuji. Out of all of them only the original 1ds and the P-30 have been error free and required zero repairs. In the last few months I've shot around 15,000 or more frames with the P-30 and not a glitch.
Considering the price is almost 1/2 that of my original Aptus though double a 1ds2, it stands to reason that a back at this price point and with stable software and excellent color would have gone a long way of slowing the slide to Canon.
There is definatley a place for the dslrs, just like with film there was a place for medium format and 35mm.
I use the Canon's regularly, but for certain jobs like tethering, or where more dynamic range and better color response is needed the Canon's don't match medium format.
Whether a client see's this or not is irrelevant.
In regards to the HY6, until it's released, prices set, systems made available and it has a following in purchase and rentals I don't think it really matters. Later, once it's proven itself and if it gains a following, then I guess it's something that all of us could/should look at, but today it's just a website and a pdf.
Still, for medium format to do more than survive, to actually thrive the winner will be the manufacturer that makes a reliable product that has stable fast software, produces great color and at a good price.
For Leaf, Hasselblad and Sinar to all go with propreitary systems is their choice and it's their perogative, but I hold to the thought that success will come to the company that produces the best product, not the best behind the scenes deal.
Then again I might be wrong.
JR
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The worst thing that could happen is that the back makers all sign on to proprietary bodies (like Hassy) and then we're all screwed. I went to MF for OPTIONS. I've got Leaf, I've now got Phase. My H1 was sucking it up, so I switched to Contax but kept my Leaf. Same back, different body. The Leaf wasn't playing nice with the Contax? I get a P30. So now I've created for myself a system that is WHAT I WANT. Not what some jerky manufacturer/photo mag/website tells me is best. Especially when they can't agree upon what kind of potato chips to serve at some never-gonna-happen comparison meeting.
Options.
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If my initial expression about H3D sounded disappointed, I did not mean it. By all means it is a series and looks like a well engineered camera, and it works. Just that I was much more used to more simplified layout, no guessing work and intuitive to work with camera such as a Contax 645. But thtat does not make H3D a bad camera, or a worse camera. its handling is still way better than 205TCC, which is a lot havier, the grip hurt than hand if you to shoot handheld and so on.
The H3D is a proof of an intention to have the camera worked as a custom-everything camera, and its ability to do all such features is without question welcomed, perhaps there is no way to get around it to reach such a goal and has to settle for such a complicate navigation system. Spend some time I think everyone can master it. I am sure I will.
Ergonomic and control is just very subjective. On H3D manual it says the manu navigation is similar that of a cell phone was not a bad anology. Some people bother to learn everything the modern cellphone can offer, some just use it as a phone. Leica M8 sets a good example what a navigation system can be, but it cannot have all those feature of a Canon 1Ds MK2. They are different, and there are many different cameras for many different people, Contax 645, H3D just among them. I am certain with al the years of engineering excellence, the coming Hy6 will without doubt a nice one, perhaps the new standard.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104122\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
After some initial test, I can add few more comments for H3D39.
The view finder - it is confirmed that it is perhpas 1 stop brighter than Contax 645, so it is more pleasant to look thru the viewfinder, and easier to manual focus. The AF is faster than Contax 645, I can't comment on the accuracy since they both looked good to me and I don't rely on AF that much anyway.
The camera is comfortable to hold at eye-level (in shooting position), I will still say I prefer Contax 645, but may be I am just got used to it. But H3D is of course no problem at all for this concern. However, if shooting in location, I did notice that H3D grip is not that comfortable to carry (when it is not on eye-level), especially with heavy lenses (such as the 50-110 zoom I tried today. I don't have the 300/4.5 but at least I knwo it is the most heaviest). If I will carry the camera for an outdoor assignment, a hand strap or shoulder strap should not be spared. The contour of the hand grip look my thumb in position thus making carrying the camera somewhat in a not so comfortable position. In this regard, Contax 645 is superior. I have been in location shoot for hours and hours, handheld, with no problem.
The software - my first try with Flexcolor today and it was OK, still have to learn more, but I was doing better than I expected. I did not read the menu, but basically I went thru most of the control and able to make/try necessary adjustments. I think Flexcolor has its own approach, it will take time for me to comment how good it is to compare against Capture One, but the interface is easy to get familair with, although I missed 2 things which I got from years of using Capture One: (1) the pie - which I can move the mouse pointer around to get the color tone I like (2) the speed - importing the file from CF card is slow, I think next time I will try to download the image to the HDD then try again. And adjusting images (3FR) is slow, processing is slow, compare to raw file from P45 or CS2. I did not covert the 3FR to DNG to compare, sorry!
The DAC correction - The Flexcolor give the correction window with 2 options - chromatic aberration and distortion. My test shots did not allow me to find visible improvement on chromatic aberration correction but the distortion adjustment is VERY noticeable. The most visible effect, if I can describe it correctly, is that visually you can tell the image field flattened after DAC. I checked a few images made by HCD 28mm, not necessarily there are distortions (straight line being curved) to be corrected, but you can compare the before and after picture looks like a sphere image being pulled flat. So the effect is visible not just the centers of the image, but visible on entire image. I have to comment that the image before correction looks OK to me on certain captures, and making it flattend out make you feel that the 3d curvature of the image has been recalculated and pulled flat. On some images, I do not notice much distortion problem before correction, it seemed the software adjust the geometry of the image. And yes, on some images where I try to test the lens performance, particular the HCD 28mm, and yes I did notice some barrel distortion on the corners on some shots, and the DAC did its work. I will have to say this is a useful tool. The shot I made is still not perfect to analyze this, I shall comment later when I test some architecture or interior objects.
Sharpness - from the raw file, it seemed the H3D 3FR has less pre-sharpening than P45. If I address sharpening value of 50 on Capture One, it is easily go above 100 value in Flexcolor, so, it is difficult to comment how sharp the H3D + H lenses system compare to Contax 645+P45. But judged from the developed image, the HCD 28mm is VERY SHARP! I will say it is a lens worth its price, but time will tell.
Overall - The H3D should be a trong performer, but I only did 20 pictures today so it is nowhere near the limit of any camera so to speak. I will put it into tougher work to tell its true manner. Overall the camera is easy to work with, I tried to keep my eye on the viewfinder and adjust the control as much as possible and it worked well. Given time, I think it will be a good professional tool. And again, I will also have to comment for such a camera of such cost, and the digital back attached, H3D could have made the camera looked more expensive than the plastic feeling exterior. The hand grip is in itself a rechargable power source - which can be removed and reattached. I think the entire camera+lens+back rely on such detachable grip is an oversight in design. I would expect Hasselblad to extend the body to cover at least portion of the hand/grip as permanent feature than designed as is. It does not feel filmsy in anyway, but may be it is still brand new, but having the entire handle as a removable part to me was not a good idea, may be this was the idea extended from the 2000 series, but certainly for a modern product, they can look at the Contax 645.
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Hi Khun
I am sitting on the fence tp upgrade my H2D39 to a H3D39, but the waiting list is still too long.
Just wondering if you have checked the noise situation in different circumstances and was hoping the H3D has usable 400 asa possibilities.
Regarding flexcolor sharpening I set it at 250 for pin sharp images without increasing noise levels
As far as comparisons with other mf cameras I can only compare it with my old Pentax 67 and Mamiya RZ and find that after 24000 frames the HD has become a natural extension of my hand!
Well actually a natural extension of my tripod.
I can garantee that the DAC works 100%, I do mostly architecture and interior and the DAC arrived after about 3 months of purchasing the HD. It was a godsend and I really did not know how I managed before, I stopped shooting straight on as the moustache distortion caused such hassles.
Anyway good luck with it
Marc
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I'm not in the camera making or camera selling business, but I think as photographers we talk a lot more about these cameras and availability than Phase does.
To begin with medium format cameras have always been 10 year purchases at least with film and I don't see why they should be any more or less long lived with digital, unless someone finds a way to make them purposely obsolete with firmware or software changes.
I doubt seriously if my three contax bodies will not be working as well in a decade as they do today, but let's say the don't and let's even take this further and say all medium format cameras stopped production today.
With the current supply of RZ's, blads both H and V systems, Mamiya and what's left of the Contax supply I doubt if anyone would really go without a camera for a long time.
But since you brought up Phase, I believe if they had introduced the P-30 about the time of the original 1ds, they're would have been a lot less photographers move to Canon from their medium format cameras.
I'm not pimping anything and own Canon's, Nikons, Leaf and Phase and have owned Kodak and Fuji. Out of all of them only the original 1ds and the P-30 have been error free and required zero repairs. In the last few months I've shot around 15,000 or more frames with the P-30 and not a glitch.
Considering the price is almost 1/2 that of my original Aptus though double a 1ds2, it stands to reason that a back at this price point and with stable software and excellent color would have gone a long way of slowing the slide to Canon.
There is definatley a place for the dslrs, just like with film there was a place for medium format and 35mm.
I use the Canon's regularly, but for certain jobs like tethering, or where more dynamic range and better color response is needed the Canon's don't match medium format.
Whether a client see's this or not is irrelevant.
In regards to the HY6, until it's released, prices set, systems made available and it has a following in purchase and rentals I don't think it really matters. Later, once it's proven itself and if it gains a following, then I guess it's something that all of us could/should look at, but today it's just a website and a pdf.
Still, for medium format to do more than survive, to actually thrive the winner will be the manufacturer that makes a reliable product that has stable fast software, produces great color and at a good price.
For Leaf, Hasselblad and Sinar to all go with propreitary systems is their choice and it's their perogative, but I hold to the thought that success will come to the company that produces the best product, not the best behind the scenes deal.
Then again I might be wrong.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104517\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
couldn't agree more....the photographers i talk to are interested in the Hy6, because it is a new toy and competition is good in the market....but they get REALLY excited when they see files from the P30 and the way C1 shoots tethered and the looks i can create in no time....up to 800asa (soon up to 1600) and the fact that they can use it on their RZs which they are getting triple back ups of everything right now on ebay because this stuff will last for decades and it is getting cheaper and cheaper.....
the P30 is an incredible value and it just works....i don't see canon even getting close for a couple of years...but they know they don't have to anyway....
for someone who has been shooting with an RZ for years, the idea of HAVING to switch to any camerasystem is very scary.....but putting on a back which just happens to put out one 14x19 print at 360 as fast as their packs recycle.....that's exciting....and they all know a bit PS, so LR is something they can break into fairly easily and either way their assistants all have some experience with this stuff anyway (or hire a dtech)...so they are safe and after a couple of shoots they are confident enough.....because it works.....but it has to work just like that...the ones that do work like that will survive.....the systems that try to force a camerasystem (and their own software) to come with the backs will have to change or disappear....
if i was hasselblad i would be scared by the number of people (just on this board) who use a "dead" system (contax).....and this is not because the hass is too expensive.....
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Hi Khun
I am sitting on the fence tp upgrade my H2D39 to a H3D39, but the waiting list is still too long.
Just wondering if you have checked the noise situation in different circumstances and was hoping the H3D has usable 400 asa possibilities.
Regarding flexcolor sharpening I set it at 250 for pin sharp images without increasing noise levels
As far as comparisons with other mf cameras I can only compare it with my old Pentax 67 and Mamiya RZ and find that after 24000 frames the HD has become a natural extension of my hand!
Well actually a natural extension of my tripod.
I can garantee that the DAC works 100%, I do mostly architecture and interior and the DAC arrived after about 3 months of purchasing the HD. It was a godsend and I really did not know how I managed before, I stopped shooting straight on as the moustache distortion caused such hassles.
Anyway good luck with it
Marc, Dumb question. What is DAC? Thx
Marc
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104787\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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xx
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Hi Paul
Do you happen to know if there is a Contax to Mamiya RZ or RB adapter plate ?
I would love to use my P45 (Contax mount) on my Mamiya.
Thanks
Torben
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104883\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
not that i know of..i would find out through phase...they make an adapter to use hass V mount phase backs for the RZ and (obviously) one for the mamiya 645 mounts....so maybe they have a contax as well?
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Hi Paul
Do you happen to know if there is a Contax to Mamiya RZ or RB adapter plate ?
I would love to use my P45 (Contax mount) on my Mamiya.
Thanks
Torben
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=104883\")
Try this mob...
[a href=\"http://www.eco-digital.com/products/products/adapters.html]http://www.eco-digital.com/products/products/adapters.html[/url]
Jo Sx
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Do you happen to know if there is a Contax to Mamiya RZ or RB adapter plate ?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=104883\")
As far as i can tell, eco-digital presents an adapter for contax to RZ cameras, but I have no other info than the one presented on the webpage:
[a href=\"http://eco-digital.com/products/index.html]http://eco-digital.com/products/index.html[/url]
Good luck finding one though, and if it works, please let me know
-axel
ooops, I was a bit late there, good work finding eco-digital Jo!
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Marc, Dumb question. What is DAC? Thx
Marc
to not know is not being dumb
DAC
The DAC tool corrects inherent errors introduced by the lens. Not only chromatic aberration is corrected as before but now distortion imperfections are removed as well. Corrections can be carried out on images shot with H-lenses on an H3D, H2D or an H2 in combination with a Hasselblad CF/CFH back. The function works by processing the specific lens, aperture and focusing distance data that are stored in the files.
http://www.hasselblad.se/promotions/newsle...distortion.aspx (http://www.hasselblad.se/promotions/newsletterpages/rule-out-distortion.aspx)
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I have been on the sinar forum and asked a few questions, but I was most surprised at the low volume of questions being asked, an indication of dwindling interest in the camera?
Speaking for myself, I asked a lot of questions late last year and feel that I know what to expect pretty well now. There have been several major magazine articles on the Hy6 as well as information on various web sources, Photokina, etc. I think a lot of people are just waiting to hear that the first Hy6 has hit the shop shelf, and the price.
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Speaking for myself, I asked a lot of questions late last year and feel that I know what to expect pretty well now. There have been several major magazine articles on the Hy6 as well as information on various web sources, Photokina, etc. I think a lot of people are just waiting to hear that the first Hy6 has hit the shop shelf, and the price.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104898\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
If your happy with Sinar or Leaf and are exactly 100% sure that Sinar is the "film" you want to shoot your entire career then the HY6 will probably work for you.
Me, I've seen all of these companies go back and forth. First Phase, then Leaf, now Phase etc., and each one is just one bad batch of sensors, or one wrong software decision away from being passed.
Personally I want the option to put any film I want on any camera without cords, adapters and workarounds and I want a variety of lenses beyond the given 35, 45, 80, 140, 210.
You see it on this forum all the time the number of photogrpahers that continue to use or try to use RZ's, Contax, Hasselblad V's, even fuji 680's because they like the camera and want what that system gives them.
Also, you have a lot more faith in these cameras than I do. Out of the 14 professional digital cameras I have owned which covers 5 brands only two have come out of the box working as advertised so I must assume that any new camera and back combination that hits the market brand new, must have a few glitches that have to be "beta tested" out of them before they are ready for large pressured production.
Given all of this, if the Sinar/Leaf HY6 is going to have a chance it better have a lot of product in the pipeline and a lot of support.
Today I was at Calumet New York and they had that big Sinar camera that looks like a huge 35mm. It was on the shelf with no back and nobody really knew the price, the back that worked with it or what lenses were available and how or if the complete system could be purchased today.
No photographer I know will risk there career on a system that is only half on the shelf, especially one that doesn't offer any backup from rental.
Knowing this if Sinar's HY6 is going to be fully adopted they must do a better job of getting the product out there.
I hope the HY6 is successful and I hope it makes other manufacturer's step up and make more cameras with more options, but until I can walk across the hall of a rental studio and pick up an extra lens it's not there yet.
JR
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Today I was at Calumet New York and they had that big Sinar camera that looks like a huge 35mm. It was on the shelf with no back and nobody really knew the price, the back that worked with it or what lenses were available and how or if the complete system could be purchased today.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104907\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
checking out the sinar M james? as far as i know it only takes sinar backs, the price is something like 15000 for body, prism, one lens.....and each additional lens is somewhere between 6000 and 12000....but i think it takes 35mm nikon lenses...makes a lot of sense with that large sensor....oh and it syncs at 1/100th....i guess no leaf shutters....now there is a system that is really well thought out....
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Dear Paul,
I would like to correct some little mistakes and incorrections about the Sinar m:
- The Sinaron Digital AF lenses are priced between US$ 3'280.- and 6'300.- (not 6'000.- to 12'000.-!)
- Yes, it takes 35mm Nikon lenses: the Sinar m was out (and sold) at the time of the 6 & 11 MPx sensors, and made a lot of sense for some.
- Sinar has not "thought" this camera to hit the fashion/portrait/location photography market, never.
- The camera is in fact a system which integrates the Sinar m in the p2/p3 studio system: it is used mainly in big car photography studios (e.g. Toyota Studios in Nagoya = 8 large studios of each 2'500 SQM with each 4 working places), in Museums and Libraries and other large in-house reproduction places: and it sells well in this market (and it happens that I just got an order for 2 systems on p3 for China 1 hour ago).
- We never claimed that the Sinar m is a system thought out for the market we speak about on this tread, nor in the rental studios or rental places.
Thanks for your understanding and best regards,
Thierry
checking out the sinar M james? as far as i know it only takes sinar backs, the price is something like 15000 for body, prism, one lens.....and each additional lens is somewhere between 6000 and 12000....but i think it takes 35mm nikon lenses...makes a lot of sense with that large sensor....oh and it syncs at 1/100th....i guess no leaf shutters....now there is a system that is really well thought out....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104913\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Dear Paul,
I would like to correct some little mistakes and incorrections about the Sinar m:
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[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104918\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Theiry,
I'm not dissing the Sinar M, heck I'm not dissing Calumet, but it has to be doing neither of you any good to have a very expesnive camera sitting on the shelf of a New York dealer, without any support service, information, or accessories, much less a digital back.
Think about it this way. A photographer migrating from film to digital walks into Calumet and picks up this hand held camera, the M. First asks about price, lenses, digital backs, availability, software, rentals, backup, service and upgrade policies.
Let's say he gets his answers and is told well, the Camera and a few lenses and a back are around 45 thousand. Then he picks up a 1ds2 and asks about the same, with a price of uh, . . . $7,000.
Which direction do you think the photographer is going to go and better yet when it comes time to step up to a different platform what impression did the Sinar give the photographer?
I wonder why Calumet or Sinar even has this camera on a store shelf.
JR
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Dear James,
No harm at all.
I totally agree with you on this, and am asking myself what this camera is doing there, respectively why one cannot give reliable information on it. Unfortunately we do and cannot have control on all this in the market, and rely on information from guys like you to try to change it. I bet such things also happen with other brands in some other places, which isn't an excuse at all, I admit.
I shall forward to the person in charge.
Thank you for your advice.
Best regards,
Thierry
Theiry,
I'm not dissing the Sinar M, heck I'm not dissing Calumet, but it has to be doing neither of you any good to have a very expesnive camera sitting on the shelf of a New York dealer, without any support service, information, or accessories, much less a digital back.
Think about it this way. A photographer migrating from film to digital walks into Calumet and picks up this hand held camera, the M. First asks about price, lenses, digital backs, availability, software, rentals, backup, service and upgrade policies.
Let's say he gets his answers and is told well, the Camera and a few lenses and a back are around 45 thousand. Then he picks up a 1ds2 and asks about the same, with a price of uh, . . . $7,000.
Which direction do you think the photographer is going to go and better yet when it comes time to step up to a different platform what impression did the Sinar give the photographer?
I wonder why Calumet or Sinar even has this camera on a store shelf.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104930\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Deleted by BJNY
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If your happy with Sinar or Leaf and are exactly 100% sure that Sinar is the "film" you want to shoot your entire career then the HY6 will probably work for you.
Me, I've seen all of these companies go back and forth. First Phase, then Leaf, now Phase etc., and each one is just one bad batch of sensors, or one wrong software decision away from being passed.
Personally I want the option to put any film I want on any camera without cords, adapters and workarounds and I want a variety of lenses beyond the given 35, 45, 80, 140, 210.
You see it on this forum all the time the number of photogrpahers that continue to use or try to use RZ's, Contax, Hasselblad V's, even fuji 680's because they like the camera and want what that system gives them.
Also, you have a lot more faith in these cameras than I do. Out of the 14 professional digital cameras I have owned which covers 5 brands only two have come out of the box working as advertised so I must assume that any new camera and back combination that hits the market brand new, must have a few glitches that have to be "beta tested" out of them before they are ready for large pressured production.
Given all of this, if the Sinar/Leaf HY6 is going to have a chance it better have a lot of product in the pipeline and a lot of support.
Today I was at Calumet New York and they had that big Sinar camera that looks like a huge 35mm. It was on the shelf with no back and nobody really knew the price, the back that worked with it or what lenses were available and how or if the complete system could be purchased today.
No photographer I know will risk there career on a system that is only half on the shelf, especially one that doesn't offer any backup from rental.
Knowing this if Sinar's HY6 is going to be fully adopted they must do a better job of getting the product out there.
I hope the HY6 is successful and I hope it makes other manufacturer's step up and make more cameras with more options, but until I can walk across the hall of a rental studio and pick up an extra lens it's not there yet.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104907\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
James,
Just curious...which 2 cameras came out of the box working as advertised?
DC
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James,
Just curious...which 2 cameras came out of the box working as advertised?
DC
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104988\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Canon 1ds (original) and Phase P-30.
Both I consider the standard that all others should be judged.
JR
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Canon 1ds (original) and Phase P-30.
Both I consider the standard that all others should be judged.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104992\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I highly agree.
Regards
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Dear Paul,
I would like to correct some little mistakes and incorrections about the Sinar m:
- The Sinaron Digital AF lenses are priced between US$ 3'280.- and 6'300.- (not 6'000.- to 12'000.-!)
- Yes, it takes 35mm Nikon lenses: the Sinar m was out (and sold) at the time of the 6 & 11 MPx sensors, and made a lot of sense for some.
- Sinar has not "thought" this camera to hit the fashion/portrait/location photography market, never.
- The camera is in fact a system which integrates the Sinar m in the p2/p3 studio system: it is used mainly in big car photography studios (e.g. Toyota Studios in Nagoya = 8 large studios of each 2'500 SQM with each 4 working places), in Museums and Libraries and other large in-house reproduction places: and it sells well in this market (and it happens that I just got an order for 2 systems on p3 for China 1 hour ago).
- We never claimed that the Sinar m is a system thought out for the market we speak about on this tread, nor in the rental studios or rental places.
Thanks for your understanding and best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104918\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
thierry...that is great news about the prices.....now somebody has to inform B&H about them, because that is where i got them....btw: the only price info i could find....
last time i checked the prices were even higher....i also looked at the camera when i looked at the emotin back, got a demo on from the local sinar dealer...at that point the 80mm retailed for more then 8000$.....
i understand that the camera plays well with the P system...great...i just don't understand why anyone would build a MF camera body with a built in shutter stuck at 1/100 sync, ESPECIALLY if it meant to be an addition with the P system, where you probably already have in lens shutters....
but i am happy it sells well....
i understand that integration like this is a great hting...look at my htreads, one of the reasons i think the rollei6000/Hy6 is so great is the complete integration with the Xact system....everything interchangeable....of course at a fraction of the price of a sinarM&P system and 1/1000 sync.....
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Dear Paul,
Alright, thanks for the info: I shall forward to the responsible about your price indications.
As for the Sinar m and 1/100 sync speed: most (if not all) are using the "m" with digital lenses mount on CAB/CMV lenses (full or semi-automatic controlled).
Thanks for your thoughts about the Rollei 600x/Hy6: I have read it.
Best regards,
Thierry
thierry...that is great news about the prices.....now somebody has to inform B&H about them, because that is where i got them....btw: the only price info i could find....
last time i checked the prices were even higher....i also looked at the camera when i looked at the emotin back, got a demo on from the local sinar dealer...at that point the 80mm retailed for more then 8000$.....
i understand that the camera plays well with the P system...great...i just don't understand why anyone would build a MF camera body with a built in shutter stuck at 1/100 sync, ESPECIALLY if it meant to be an addition with the P system, where you probably already have in lens shutters....
but i am happy it sells well....
i understand that integration like this is a great hting...look at my htreads, one of the reasons i think the rollei6000/Hy6 is so great is the complete integration with the Xact system....everything interchangeable....of course at a fraction of the price of a sinarM&P system and 1/1000 sync.....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105033\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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As for the Sinar m and 1/100 sync speed: most (if not all) are using the "m" with digital lenses mount on CAB/CMV lenses
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105107\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Which means what ?? Full synch ??
If this is the case you Sinar guys are craaazy not to make this very clear because I for one just wrote of that system as soon as I saw the dreaded word
" 100s "
What about with HASS V lenses ??
SMM
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Which means what ?? Full synch ??
If this is the case you Sinar guys are craaazy not to make this very clear because I for one just wrote of that system as soon as I saw the dreaded word
" 100s "
What about with HASS V lenses ??
SMM
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105110\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
i am a little confused now as well.....the 1/100 sync is with all lenses made for the M and of course for the nikon lenses as well.....i guess if you attach it to the back of a P and use the front shutter you get faster sync? what is the advantage of putting it on the P compared to simply using the P? as long as i use the M body i use the rear shutter which syncs at 1/100.....can i use view camera lenses directly on the M? i seriously doubt that....i just don't understand the advantage of a handheld system that relies on a rear shutter if handheld and why make it handheld if the prominent use is in studio and again especially there, why put in a rear shutter?
i actually was superexcited when that thing was announced...seemed like the ultimate open system, use all kind of lenses, totally modular....turns out it only takes sinar backs, the costs are from a different planet and the 1/100......i actually got a demo on it..handles very well....i mean it is very big, but not too bad.....if it would take phase backs and the lenses had built in shutters.....definitely interesting....
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i am a little confused now as well.....the 1/100 sync is with all lenses made for the M and of course for the nikon lenses as well.....i guess if you attach it to the back of a P and use the front shutter you get faster sync? what is the advantage of putting it on the P compared to simply using the P? as long as i use the M body i use the rear shutter which syncs at 1/100.....can i use view camera lenses directly on the M? i seriously doubt that....i just don't understand the advantage of a handheld system that relies on a rear shutter if handheld and why make it handheld if the prominent use is in studio and again especially there, why put in a rear shutter?
i actually was superexcited when that thing was announced...seemed like the ultimate open system, use all kind of lenses, totally modular....turns out it only takes sinar backs, the costs are from a different planet and the 1/100......i actually got a demo on it..handles very well....i mean it is very big, but not too bad.....if it would take phase backs and the lenses had built in shutters.....definitely interesting....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105123\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well first let me make one statement. It is my understanding that the M camera was offered as a platform to more than one digital back company other than Sinar. They declined to make backs for the platform. So it isn't Sinar that was making a closed system, but it works out that way because nobody else wanted to make a back for it. All of the digital back companies had other priorities.
The M camera system does some very specialized things very well. On the P3 it served as a high speed shutter and allows functions such as auto-bracketing and total remote control from the computer.
As a stand alone camera with the nikon or hasselblad module it allows a small compact camera used for catalog work without movements. It still gives you live video and other camera functions.
With the autofocus Zeiss lenses it serves as a hand holdable camera or can be put into areas that you could not put a Human being. With the zeiss lenses you can focus remotely from the computer via the firewire connection. I have at least 2 customers that are using it specifically for that reason. Both use it in lab situations where it is dangerous for a human photographer to be. They have a motorized pan tilt head and can focus wherever they need to.
I realize the system is not for everyone and it never really was designed to be. It is part of the modular thinking that Sinar has been known for for many decades. Just more tools to be put into the photographers hands to be used to create ....
Matt LaPointe
Sinar Bron Imaging
National Sales Support Specialist
(219) 670-9905
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Thanks Matt, for the precisions!
I was on the way to write more details about the Sinar m system, and explain, since some seem to criticize it as a camera (however, critic is welcome and constructive).
But you have explained it well and perfectly, what the system can do: it is not only a camera or a shutter.
In addition to your info I would like to add:
- vibration free shutter (for multishot)
- focus trap
- automatic WB, Default Profiles , Kelvin Adjustable in 50K increments
- single / automatically controled multishot (vibration free)
- most other functions available as they are on any MF camera
- availability battery pack with 10 hours and/or 5000 images capacity
- powered by battery grip, external 12V battery or external 12V PS
Best regards,
Thierry
The M camera system does some very specialized things very well.
I realize the system is not for everyone and it never really was designed to be. It is part of the modular thinking that Sinar has been known for for many decades. Just more tools to be put into the photographers hands to be used to create ....
Matt LaPointe
Sinar Bron Imaging
National Sales Support Specialist
(219) 670-9905
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105131\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thanks Matt, for the precisions!
I was on the way to write more details about the Sinar m system, and explain, since some seem to criticize it as a camera (however, critic is welcome and constructive).
But you have explained it well and perfectly, what the system can do: it is not only a camera or a shutter.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105145\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
So the synch speed is 100s with all lenses ??[/color]
the quote
"As for the Sinar m and 1/100 sync speed: most (if not all) are using the "m" with digital lenses mount on CAB/CMV lenses (full or semi-automatic controlled)"
Makes it look like that may not be the case - I dont understand - this quote seems to imply that maybe it sysnchs fater with these lenses
YES or NO will do !
----
I am not trying to criticise your system I am just trying to gather information - I was very exited too
This product could appeal to me if that were the case (decent flash on some lenses) even though it is costly
Because I have a P2 a sinar back and nikkors from 14 trhough to 600 and Nikon dont make a FF back
Even though it is expensive it could stack up after disposal of my D200, SLRn H1 HC lenses etc
And it hints at using the full area of Nikkor lenses which I know to be way larger than 35mm chip size although not covering 22mp
Trouble is I need some decent synch somewhere in my gear portfolio
SMM
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- We never claimed that the Sinar m is a system thought out for the market we speak about on this trhead, nor in the rental studios or rental places.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=104918\")
I realize the system is not for everyone and it never really was designed to be. It is part of the modular thinking that Sinar has been known for for many decades. Just more tools to be put into the photographers hands to be used to create ....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105131\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
These quotes do seem a little bit of a turnaround compared to to this Sinar press release at the time of launch
=================
Objective ..provide the photographer with maximum flexibility.
It is designed to make possible.. every assignment simply.
That makes it .. effective in every situation.
(The) system is .. the right product for all professional photographers in every .. situation
=================
[a href=\"http://www.eyelike.de/cms_documentdir/051124release_Sinar_m_english.pdf]http://www.eyelike.de/cms_documentdir/0511...r_m_english.pdf[/url]
That doesnt seem to be saying this is our new system for musems and car photographers and those working in dangerous factories !
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thierry...that is great news about the prices.....now somebody has to inform B&H about them, because that is where i got them....btw: the only price info i could find....
last time i checked the prices were even higher....i also looked at the camera when i looked at the emotin back, got a demo on from the local sinar dealer...at that point the 80mm retailed for more then 8000$.....
i understand that the camera plays well with the P system...great...i just don't understand why anyone would build a MF camera body with a built in shutter stuck at 1/100 sync, ESPECIALLY if it meant to be an addition with the P system, where you probably already have in lens shutters....
but i am happy it sells well....
i understand that integration like this is a great hting...look at my htreads, one of the reasons i think the rollei6000/Hy6 is so great is the complete integration with the Xact system....everything interchangeable....of course at a fraction of the price of a sinarM&P system and 1/1000 sync.....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105033\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
This is one place where I would not trust B&H to price this. B&H is not a Sinar Digital Dealer. They are Sinar Conventional, but have never had the ability to order or sell Sinar digital products.
You can look at our dealer listing at www.sinarbron.com.
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sorry for any misunderstanding: YES, the sync speed is 1/100th
What I wanted to say is that most are using it for studio work (stills).
Best regards,
Thierry
So the synch speed is 100s with all lenses ??[/color]
the quote
"As for the Sinar m and 1/100 sync speed: most (if not all) are using the "m" with digital lenses mount on CAB/CMV lenses (full or semi-automatic controlled)"
Makes it look like that may not be the case - I dont understand - this quote seems to imply that maybe it sysnchs fater with these lenses
YES or NO will do !
----
I am not trying to criticise your system I am just trying to gather information - I was very exited too
This product could appeal to me if that were the case (decent flash on some lenses) even though it is costly
Because I have a P2 a sinar back and nikkors from 14 trhough to 600 and Nikon dont make a FF back
Even though it is expensive it could stack up after disposal of my D200, SLRn H1 HC lenses etc
And it hints at using the full area of Nikkor lenses which I know to be way larger than 35mm chip size although not covering 22mp
Trouble is I need some decent synch somewhere in my gear portfolio
SMM
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105160\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]