Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: ricgal on January 26, 2007, 03:28:06 am
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Are there any really magic papers that click with the Vivera inkset on the 3100.
I am starting my own investigations but it an expensive process and would appreciate advice.- i gather Innova fibagloss a'nt great and FAP has too strong a curl.
On a lighter note I am hoping mine does not break down as it took a big shoe horn and a fair ammount of soap to install and i am not sure it would ever come out unless i sawed it in half.[attachment=1651:attachment]
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Ok I'm doing the same thing. So far: Innova F-Type Gloss doesn't work at all. I don't like FAP so I won't try it. What I like so far. Is HP Gloss and Semi very nice. As always HM Photo Rag. German Etching looks also very nice. Now in the following week I will test Some crane papers some moab papers. But so far I will use:
-HP Glossy
-HM Photo Rag
-Sumpreme Matt Paper (Very nice cheap matt paper for banner display)
-German Etching
-Now I want to add one more F-Type paper... thinking about the new HM Photo Prearl 310 or some new Innova Papers if they work... or pherhaps crane ...
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I've been using InkJetArt Luster, Canon Heavyweight Glossy, Canon Heavyweight Luster - all three have been working great for me. I have found that Canon has a wide range of great papers that I can't find anyplace else - thicker papers is what I'm looking for, and the two Canon "heavyweights" are pretty thick (300gsm). They have a couple more I'm going to try that are listed as 14mil. A drawback to some (but not all) of the Canon papers is the fact they are on 2" rolls, which I don't like to use. My original plan was to use the HP Pro Satin paper as my standard paper with this printer but HP has been unable to get any in stock to sell to the public, and even if they ever do it will only be short 24" rolls and no other sizes. Since the sheet feed gives me so much trouble on this printer I print my 11x14's sideways on 17" rolls, and then use 24" stock for larger prints (I've got the 24" printer).
Tim Ernst in Arkansas
http://www.Cloudland.net (http://www.Cloudland.net)
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Thank you- great starting point
I am testing Innova Fiba semi gloss and i am so far quite impressed with it although the GE alters the appearance and turns it from a semi matt to a luster- early days yet.
Bronzing with GE is non existent but i need to look at metamerism very carefully to see how that works out. i have a feeling i am gstill going to have to print for a given luminence.
Should we be using profiles or just the driver when printing B&W?
What does the printer do, does it print with black, grey and the light colours when it does a B&W?
I am interested to see how the gamut of the 3100 compares to the 4000- in Gamutworks there are areas where the 4000 is much stronger, the very lights for instance but you can also see where the red, green and blue kick in too in the high midrange luminence areas. then the 4000 overtakes again in the darks.
The 3100 has a significant edge with longeveity so i would expect some trade off in gamut.
I have posted screenshots of the gamut below
[attachment=1652:attachment][attachment=1653:attachment][attachment=1654:attachm
ent]
The HP ID Gloss profile was created with the onboard Spectro and the 4000 profile for Innova Fiba semi was done on a Pulse
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On examination the Innova semi gloss does not do nice things with the blacks on the HP z. Not the paper to use, detail is lost in the darks which is plainly eveident in the Epson 4000 print on the same material and the blacks do show a reddy bronze sheen. Th Z print has far less metamerism in changing light and a greater consistency of neutrality accross the tonal range.
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Canon pro gloss next!
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Should we be using profiles or just the driver when printing B&W?
What does the printer do, does it print with black, grey and the light colours when it does a B&W?
For non-toned BW the HP recommended workflow is for application management, ie "Let PS determine colors". If you are going to enable any gray balance corrections the recommendation is for printer management, ie "Let Printer determine colors", in which case the printer profile menu is unavailable in PS. In either case make sure that the document's source profile is correct.
If you send a grayscale file to matte paper the Z3100 uses MK, PK, G, LG, no color pigments. If you send a grayscale file to glossy paper the printer uses PK, G, LG, GE, again no color pigments used. If you send an RGB file, any pixels with equal RGB values get printed with either the tri K or quad K setup mentioned above, depending on matte or glossy media. Obviously if you enable the gray balance settings, color pigments are used to hit the requested tint.
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Thanks
very useful
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Just tried Canon pro gloss for B&W and i am uttterly blown away with the quality- i am comparing it with a exaxt same print done with an Owen Boyd Variochromat process http://www.owenboyd.com/DigitalPrinting.htm (http://www.owenboyd.com/DigitalPrinting.htm) on RC gloss and the blacks are richer and it has agreater depth- unbelievable- I am now redoing my B&W portfolio
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Since the Z3100 serie has a spectorhotometer build in it has the advantage that everybody is profiling their papers the same way.
I would like to make a page on my site dedicated to the z3100 with ICC-profiles for every paper and comments from the users about the specific use.-all ready for download.
The comments would have to include:
personal view
colour & BW use
Gloss enhancer used and properly working or not.
so please send your profiles and comments to pkers@beeld.nu
and the page concerning the z3100 will be in the air soon.
regards Pieter Kers
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Page sounds like a good idea and i will do-
further on the Canon paper- the profile shows reduced gamut in the shadows which is born out in the prints- and an uneveness in the surface reflectivity- not as good a HP ID gloss- I guess ink media compaptability becomes more crucial the more advanced it all gets.
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I have posted screenshots of the gamut below
[attachment=1652:attachment][attachment=1653:attachment][attachment=1654:attachm
ent]
The HP ID Gloss profile was created with the onboard Spectro and the 4000 profile for Innova Fiba semi was done on a Pulse
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On examination the Innova semi gloss does not do nice things with the blacks on the HP z. Not the paper to use, detail is lost in the darks which is plainly eveident in the Epson 4000 print on the same material and the blacks do show a reddy bronze sheen. Th Z print has far less metamerism in changing light and a greater consistency of neutrality accross the tonal range.
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Canon pro gloss next!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=97659\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
With all do respect, but your test is not accurate IMHO. To make it more sound you have to use same amount of RGB patches in both prints.
Andre
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With all do respect, but your test is not accurate IMHO. To make it more sound you have to use same amount of RGB patches in both prints.
Andre
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=97944\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Agreed = they are not ruthlessly objective but the general conclusion still holds true
It is interesting to observe a faliure in a paper ink combo in a real world print and then to plainly see the reason for it in the gamut diagram
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Hanhamule Fine Art Pearl - curl problems aside- seems to perform very well- are there any papers with similar weight and finish but with brightners to make them pure white?
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Hanhamule Fine Art Pearl - curl problems aside- seems to perform very well- are there any papers with similar weight and finish but with brightners to make them pure white?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=97949\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
FAP does have brighteners. You mean even more brighteners?
Eric
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FAP does have brighteners. You mean even more brighteners?
Eric
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=97954\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I guess so- Fussy I am!
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Just tried Canon pro gloss for B&W and i am uttterly blown away with the quality- i am comparing it with a exaxt same print done with an Owen Boyd Variochromat process http://www.owenboyd.com/DigitalPrinting.htm (http://www.owenboyd.com/DigitalPrinting.htm) on RC gloss and the blacks are richer and it has agreater depth- unbelievable- I am now redoing my B&W portfolio
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=97691\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
the canon paper you used is it:
the "PR-101 Photo Paper Pro" type?
and how does the goss enhancer deals with it?
if you can, than plaese send me the ICC and your remarks at pkers@beeld.nu
regards,
Pkers
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the canon paper you used is it:
the "PR-101 Photo Paper Pro" type?
and how does the goss enhancer deals with it?
if you can, than plaese send me the ICC and your remarks at pkers@beeld.nu
regards,
Pkers
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=98089\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The Canon paper is not as good in the darks as the Hp ID gloss- you can see the probs- i have dropped a profile on an e mail
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Anyone tried the HP Litho-matte?
I like it VERY much, very sharp and crispy, relativly deep black IMHO, though it should be mentioned that I never printed on matte before and therefor cannot compare my actual prints to other papers.
However, I just ordered another roll...
Anyone with more experience who also printed on Litho-matte?
Best,
Clem
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I like the HP Pro Satin and have printed a couple of rolls. Very satisfactory in all aspects.
For matte I have tried about 5, the best is HP Smooth Fine Art by Hahnemuhle. The surface is optimised for HP pigments.
That said almost all Hahnemuhle supports have optical brighteners.
I have printed out a couple of rolls of PhotoRag 308 but it isn't near as colorful as Smooth Fine Art.
For third party fibre look alikes I really like the Innova Ultra just announced. I have prototype samples and they are in appearance similar to Pro Satin but the feel is much like a real darkroom paper.
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For non-toned BW the HP recommended workflow is for application management, ie "Let PS determine colors". If you are going to enable any gray balance corrections the recommendation is for printer management, ie "Let Printer determine colors", in which case the printer profile menu is unavailable in PS. In either case make sure that the document's source profile is correct.
If you send a grayscale file to matte paper the Z3100 uses MK, PK, G, LG, no color pigments. If you send a grayscale file to glossy paper the printer uses PK, G, LG, GE, again no color pigments used. If you send an RGB file, any pixels with equal RGB values get printed with either the tri K or quad K setup mentioned above, depending on matte or glossy media. Obviously if you enable the gray balance settings, color pigments are used to hit the requested tint.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=97673\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm going to say what is in my testing the better way for matte and fine art B&W . With the printer color management in print as greyscale and only grey inks the graduations are much smoother, and more detail separation. Compared to a custom profile, the blacks will be more open, smoothing much more apparent.
What they say in documention is less important.
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I love this photo of the printers. Like a craftsman's printing cave. I suppose I should return the 44" and get a 24" so I can mount another on top of it!
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Anyone tried canvas on the 3100 yet?
I'm going to be ordering a Z3100 soon and APS if they fix some of its limitations and I need to print on canvas as well as HP Pro Satin and Hahnemuhle SFA.
Are any of the HP canvas products worthwhile?
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Anyone tried canvas on the 3100 yet?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=108998\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I've got some Premiere Imaging Matte Canvas here I'll be trying in the next day or so. I was quite impressed with the samples in the shop compared to the Epson product. Also Premiere sells a sealant for it that Wilhelm has confirmed actually does improve longevity.
Will report back when I've got something to say.
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I've got some Premiere Imaging Matte Canvas here I'll be trying in the next day or so. I was quite impressed with the samples in the shop compared to the Epson product. Also Premiere sells a sealant for it that Wilhelm has confirmed actually does improve longevity.
Will report back when I've got something to say.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=109005\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks, Sean. I look forward to your feedback.
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Thanks, Sean. I look forward to your feedback.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=109013\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I've been using 100% cotton canvas - imported from Australia called Eterna 100% Cotton Fine Art Canvas 390gms. Profiled under canvas setting. Printed with deeper blacks/contrast compared to my Epson 4000. Colours were good too. No issues with rolls, but feeding in off cuts I've had a couple of jams and had to reset the printer. Be very careful the sheets have nothing sticking up to jam the heads. All customers are happy with the results so far.
Neal
www.photorestoration.co.nz
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I've been using 100% cotton canvas - imported from Australia called Eterna 100% Cotton Fine Art Canvas 390gms. Profiled under canvas setting. Printed with deeper blacks/contrast compared to my Epson 4000. Colours were good too. No issues with rolls, but feeding in off cuts I've had a couple of jams and had to reset the printer. Be very careful the sheets have nothing sticking up to jam the heads. All customers are happy with the results so far.
Neal
www.photorestoration.co.nz
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=109034\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks, Neal! What do you coat that canvas with?
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I love this photo of the printers. Like a craftsman's printing cave. I suppose I should return the 44" and get a 24" so I can mount another on top of it!
Yes - much to wifes despair- I hope the old joke- whats the difference between a Photographer and a Dominos pizza (you can feed a family of four with a Dominos pizza) does not hold true as my wife is quitting work next week-
To that end I am doing my first big run on the z3100 (by giclee standards anyway) 300m of HPR (650 A2's) I began it with the Epson 7500 but it sadly seems to drift a little colour wise on long runs (age I guess although someon may be able to suggest a solution?! The shift is dangerously slight so easily missed apart from careful examination) unless i print very very slowly with (Hi speed off).
Fortunantly it was surprisingly easy to transfer the colours to the new printer and there is the the advantage that it cuts as it goes.!
It looks all small and delicate so i hope it can handle abuse (24hr printing). Better to try it while it is in warrenty I suppose.
Kentmere have brought out some nice FB gloss- not huge in gamut but it takes the ink very nicely and looks good for B&W.
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Thanks, Neal! What do you coat that canvas with?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=109042\")
Ron
I use GMS Gliceeshield produced by the same company in Australia. It's water based and I apply it on with a roll. With a layer on I can scratch my fingers over the dried coating, leaving no marks (not that I recommend normally doing that!). I may try their outside sealer called Aquacryl - even better but makes canvas stretching more diifcult if first applied because of rigidity
[a href=\"http://gicleemedia.com.au/xcart/home.php]http://gicleemedia.com.au/xcart/home.php[/url]
Certainly cheaper for me to import from Australia than buy in New Zealand.
Neal
www.photorestoration.co.nz
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Ron
I use GMS Gliceeshield produced by the same company in Australia. It's water based and I apply it on with a roll. With a layer on I can scratch my fingers over the dried coating, leaving no marks (not that I recommend normally doing that!). I may try their outside sealer called Aquacryl - even better but makes canvas stretching more diifcult if first applied because of rigidity
http://gicleemedia.com.au/xcart/home.php (http://gicleemedia.com.au/xcart/home.php)
Certainly cheaper for me to import from Australia than buy in New Zealand.
Neal
www.photorestoration.co.nz
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=109045\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks, Neal. I'm going to search to see if this is available in the U.S.
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Anyone tried canvas on the 3100 yet?
I'm going to be ordering a Z3100 soon and APS if they fix some of its limitations and I need to print on canvas as well as HP Pro Satin and Hahnemuhle SFA.
Are any of the HP canvas products worthwhile?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=108998\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I just did some canvas prints for a client using the HP Pro Matte Canvas, very impressed with the results, and the client was thrilled.
Jon
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I just did some canvas prints for a client using the HP Pro Matte Canvas, very impressed with the results, and the client was thrilled.
Jon
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=109975\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks, Jon. I was hoping that the HP canvas products would be good.
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The Premier Matte Canvas product has a good gamut (about 900K) and the prints are clear. Be careful of dust on the canvas as it can result in ink flaking later. And this canvas must be coated afterwards. Premier sells three different gloss levels of coatings.
I'm arguing with myself on whether I want to print my latest series on the canvas or on satin photo paper. I guess I should try the satin canvas. I really need a wider gamut than I'm getting from the Matte. More testing....