Luminous Landscape Forum
The Art of Photography => User Critiques => Topic started by: Ray on January 21, 2007, 02:03:03 am
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I seek advice on the following stitched image which is not lending itself well to my interpretation of the scene. As many of you know, stitched images do not always come out neat and rectangular. Preserving all the elements contained in the individual images is difficult, if not impossible.
The final cropped image below (but still subject to tonal revision) could be an average picture-postcard scene, but never mind! At least it's higher resolution than ther average postcard print.
[attachment=1579:attachment]
I'd like it to include the following elements in the foreground (100% crops) which I felt I had to crop out in deference to the conventional recangular cropping procedures.
[attachment=1581:attachment] [attachment=1580:attachment]
As Alain Briot once wrote, all parts of the image are important. For me, the hut in the far lower left and the small group of people taking photos of each other, are an integral part of the scene. I really don't want to crop this out. So what do I do? An elliptical crop with a white background, or an elliptical crop with a black background? Or some other solution?
[attachment=1584:attachment]
Perhaps a background anecdote is called for at this point. The above scene was taken from Poon Hill close to Ghorepani in the middle of the Annapurna Range in Nepal. Ghorepani is around 2,800 metres in altitude and Poon Hill another 400 odd. So, yours truly took this shot from a height of 3200 metres. Absolutely everyone who visits Ghorepani, (makes no difference if your are 12 years old or 82), gets up at 4am to climb Poon Hill, with lights strapped around their forehead. At this time of every morning, there's a constant stream of trekkers meandering up the hill. At the top, the crowds are so great it's almost as though one had just arrived at St Peter's Square in Rome at Easter time (slight exaggeration, but you get my drift).
Now it so happens, prior to embarking upon this pre-breakfast hike, I'd had a converstaion with a young, Northern European engineering graduate, staying at the same hotel, who insisted that the famous peak, Annapurna One, 8,091 metres in height and one of the highest peaks in the area, was not visible from Poon Hill, contrary to popular belief. It was obscured by other mountains. This engineering graduate had got hold of some maps, compass another intstruments and calculated that the elevation and angles were such that Annuparna One could not possibly be seen from the top of Poon Hill.
The above panorama, I am led to believe by my experienced guide who accompanied me on this trip, includes a view of the summit of Annapurna One, behind the other peaks, as shown in the following crop. The peak on the right is Dhaulagiri, slightly higher at 8,167m. Of course, my guide could be wrong. If anyone can shed some light on this contentious issue, please speak up.
[attachment=1583:attachment]
Anyway, back to the image in question. What can I do with it? Is the unconventional crop going to work?
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...Anyway, back to the image in question. What can I do with it? Is the unconventional crop going to work?
Ray,
I've seen many panoramic postcards with non-rectangular cropping. It doesn't bother me at all, at least on small postcard formats. Printing big is different. If you keep it with the elliptical crop, a black background might be the way to go - FWIW it's a personal opinion only.
If you're patient and want to experiment, you can always try to "paint" the missing areas in Photoshop. The clone tool and the liquify tool can be helpful. Here's my take (below, just 30 seconds in PS).
By the way, your photo is fantastic.
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I had a quick go using the transform and the clone tool before I saw Francois' post, this is what I came up with. If you spent some time on it nobody will ever notice. Great shot.
image (http://www.tomperkinsphotography.com/forum/pano.jpg)
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.... If you spent some time on it nobody will ever notice. Great shot. ...
Right! This photo can be easily improved and corrected for the missing areas. After more thinking, I believe that the non-rectangular crop might not be the best thing if the photo is printed poster-size and then framed.
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Francois and Tom, thanks for your advice. Looks like I'll have to do more work on this, using the healing brush, copy and paste, whatever. The image consists of 3 hand-held shots. The leftmost image was tilted and there's no foreground in front of the shed, so I'll have to take a few patches of grass from elsewhere. I was a bit hesitant to do this because I intend making a 6ft wide print from this image and any defects will be visible. No matter how big the print is, people have a tendency to walk right up to it to examine the detail. Also, if someone asks me if the image was 'manipulated', I might find it difficult to say no .
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[attachment=1586:attachment]
Here's a shot at it using transform. This one used three separate layers - copy the right half into a layer, transform distort, then the right half of that layer, new layer transform distort and the same for the third section. If the edge is apparent, use a gradient mask to deal with that.
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Ray,
I like what Tom and Francois have suggested. With a fair amount of time and lots of careful work you can do a clone-tool job that will not look suspicious even in a large print.
That image is well worth the effort, IMHO. You do get to some interesting places, don't you?
Eric
P.S. As an alternative, if you do the elliptical crop on the bottom, I think it would work if you do it on the top also. You should only lose some sky, of which there is plenty. Nice shot!
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The not so good way to make a rectangular image is: In PS, Transform>Warp
The better way is to stitch the photos with a cylindrical or mercator output projection, you'll keep the bottom aproximatly horizontal in the stitch.
Jim
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One person who can answer your mountain peak question is Jonathan de Ferranti at;
http://www.viewfinderpanoramas.org/ (http://www.viewfinderpanoramas.org/)
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Now it so happens, prior to embarking upon this pre-breakfast hike, I'd had a converstaion with a young, Northern European engineering graduate, staying at the same hotel, who insisted that the famous peak, Annapurna One, 8,091 metres in height and one of the highest peaks in the area, was not visible from Poon Hill, contrary to popular belief. It was obscured by other mountains. This engineering graduate had got hold of some maps, compass another intstruments and calculated that the elevation and angles were such that Annuparna One could not possibly be seen from the top of Poon Hill.
The above panorama, I am led to believe by my experienced guide who accompanied me on this trip, includes a view of the summit of Annapurna One, behind the other peaks, as shown in the following crop. The peak on the right is Dhaulagiri, slightly higher at 8,167m. Of course, my guide could be wrong. If anyone can shed some light on this contentious issue, please speak up.
[attachment=1583:attachment]
Anyway, back to the image in question. What can I do with it? Is the unconventional crop going to work?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=96811\")
Ray,
The mountain your guide pointed out to you as Annapurna I is most definitely not the Annapurna and is even on the wrong side of the valley. It is most likely the Tukuche peak which is in the Dhaulagiri region.
I marked a few mountains on your photo below.
The truth is that from the whole 3-week Annapurna trek you indeed get only a couple of days when the main mountain - the Annapuran I is visible. More often you see the Annapurna South, Annapurnas II, III and IV, etc..
[attachment=1597:attachment]
To see Annapurna I in it's full beauty you need to go to the Annapurna Base Camp.
[a href=\"http://public.fotki.com/mtselman/the-trip/nepal/annapurna/pict5444.html]Annapurna I from Base Camp[/url]
--Misha
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Ray,
The mountain your guide pointed out to you as Annapurna I is most definitely not the Annapurna and is even on the wrong side of the valley. It is most likely the Tukuche peak which is in the Dhaulagiri region.
I marked a few mountains on your photo below.
The truth is that from the whole 3-week Annapurna trek you indeed get only a couple of days when the main mountain - the Annapuran I is visible. More often you see the Annapurna South, Annapurnas II, III and IV, etc..
[attachment=1597:attachment]
To see Annapurna I in it's full beauty you need to go to the Annapurna Base Camp.
Annapurna I from Base Camp (http://public.fotki.com/mtselman/the-trip/nepal/annapurna/pict5444.html)
--Misha
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=96977\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Misha,
You might well be right, but I don't quite understand your diagram (on my photo) pointing out where Annapurna 1 should be. I've provided a 100% crop of the area you've indicated, below. Are you saying that Annapurna 1 is obscured by that whiff of cloud on the lower (appearing) peak on the left of the photo? The higher (looking) peak on the right of the crop is Machupichre, I believe; or have I got this wrong?
[attachment=1598:attachment]
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Misha,
You might well be right, but I don't quite understand your diagram (on my photo) pointing out where Annapurna 1 should be. I've provided a 100% crop of the area you've indicated, below. Are you saying that Annapurna 1 is obscured by that whiff of cloud on the lower (appearing) peak on the left of the photo? The higher (looking) peak on the right of the crop is Machupichre, I believe; or have I got this wrong?
[attachment=1598:attachment]
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=96991\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Ray, the higher, pyramid-like looking peak on the right of your photo above is Annapurna South. Machapuchare is not visible from Gorepani/Poone Hill. It is quite a bit lower than most of the mountains in the Annapurna group and is here completely obscured by Annapurna South and Hinchuli. Best views of Machapuchare are from the Annapurna Sanctuary/Base Camp trek.
As for Annapurna I, you are right, as I indicated on your photo I believe it is the mountain just barely obscured by the one you see on the left side of your photo. Some people actually say that the mountain on the left side of your photo is Annapurna I, but I do not think so. It is indeed supposed to be mostly obscured from the view.
--Misha
PS. Most "trekking guides" in Nepal often do not know exactly which mountain is which, but as people in this culture have difficulty saying "No" to you, they would often just want to make you happy that you saw that mountain you wanted to see. You point to a mountain and ask "Is this Annapurna?" They say: "Yes, sir." They just want to make you happy - no bad intensions. I spent almost 4 month in Nepal last year and love that land and people.
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Most "trekking guides" in Nepal often do not know exactly which mountain is which, but as people in this culture have difficulty saying "No" to you, they would often just want to make you happy that you saw that mountain you wanted to see. You point to a mountain and ask "Is this Annapurna?" They say: "Yes, sir." They just want to make you happy - no bad intensions. I spent almost 4 month in Nepal last year and love that land and people.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=97007\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Misha,
I appreciate the sentiment. Most Nepalese are struggling to survive and probably don't give a stuff about accuracy of mountain names.
However, having done a Google search, I've found the following image which is similar to my crop but clear of the clouds. The author identifies that peak (on the left of my crop) as Annapurna 1. If it's not Annapurna 1, then there's nothing in the vicinity that could be. Which means my engineering friend was right. Annapurna 1 is not visible from Poon Hill.
[attachment=1601:attachment]
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Here's my take:
[attachment=1602:attachment]
I used the CS2 Lens Correction filter with the barrel/pincushion set to +27, no cloning/healing/painting crap needed.
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Great tip Jonathan.
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Misha,
I appreciate the sentiment. Most Nepalese are struggling to survive and probably don't give a stuff about accuracy of mountain names.
However, having done a Google search, I've found the following image which is similar to my crop but clear of the clouds. The author identifies that peak (on the left of my crop) as Annapurna 1. If it's not Annapurna 1, then there's nothing in the vicinity that could be. Which means my engineering friend was right. Annapurna 1 is not visible from Poon Hill.
[attachment=1601:attachment]
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=97018\")
Ray,
The mountain on the left is Varahashikhar (7847m), also known as the "Fang". Annapurna I is right behind it. Interestingly, Wikipedia lists it as Annapurna I: [a href=\"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annapurna]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annapurna[/url] , but probably due to the same reason - people come to Poon Hill and guides rather point to it and say "Annapurna I" than say: "Varahashikhar", since they know you came to see Annapurna.
--Misha
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I seek advice on the following stitched image which is not lending itself well to my interpretation of the scene.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=96811\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
What is your "interpretation?" Maybe you simply failed to "capture the moment," and no amount of pjotoshop will fetch it.
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I used the CS2 Lens Correction filter with the barrel/pincushion set to +27, no cloning/healing/painting crap needed.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=97025\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks Jonathan. Brilliant idea. It works just fine. Problem solved .
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Thanks Jonathan. Brilliant idea. It works just fine. Problem solved .
You're welcome. Sometimes it's the simple things nobody thinks of...
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Ray, the higher, pyramid-like looking peak on the right of your photo above is Annapurna South. Machapuchare is not visible from Gorepani/Poone Hill. It is quite a bit lower than most of the mountains in the Annapurna group and is here completely obscured by Annapurna South and Hinchuli. Best views of Machapuchare are from the Annapurna Sanctuary/Base Camp trek.
I found the view from a microflight (http://jani.vikingmud.org/gallery/v/Jan_in_Asia/Nepal/Pokhara/Resize+of+EPV0156.JPG.html) to be more than adequate.
Spelling of the name seems to vary (Macchapucchre is the spelling I went for), but to recognize it in photos, it helps to remember that the mountain is called Fishtail Mountain.
As for the mountains themselves, and where they're at, a map is of course useful if you can point out where you were when the photograph was taken, and can identify the angle of view.
At the airport in Pokhara, they had a faded photograph of the Annapurna Range with names (note the fourth spelling of Fishtail Mountain ...):
[attachment=1678:attachment]
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Machapuchare is not visible from Gorepani/Poone Hill. It is quite a bit lower than most of the mountains in the Annapurna group and is here completely obscured by Annapurna South and Hinchuli. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=97007\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Okay! to both Misha and Jani, I believe Machupichre is visible from Poon Hill. If it's not, then please identify the mountain on the far right of the following stitched panorama. It looks suspiciously like a fish tail to me .
[attachment=1684:attachment]
Here's a 100% crop that might help the knowledgeable identify the peak for certain.
[attachment=1686:attachment]
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I think I'm suffering from high altitude edema just looking at these fotos.
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Okay! to both Misha and Jani, I believe Machupichre is visible from Poon Hill. If it's not, then please identify the mountain on the far right of the following stitched panorama. It looks suspiciously like a fish tail to me .
[attachment=1684:attachment]
Here's a 100% crop that migh help the knowledgeable identify the peak for certain.
[attachment=1686:attachment]
Well, it so happens that I snapped more than one photo during that microflight.
I must admit to not editing any of these on a calibrated monitor, so I just fetched this BW conversion:
[attachment=1690:attachment]
So that should remove any doubt that you're right: Fishtail Mountain is visible from Poon Hill.
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[attachment=1690:attachment]
So that should remove any doubt that you're right: Fishtail Mountain is visible from Poon Hill.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=98033\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks, Jani. It's nice to be right once in a while .
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Thanks, Jani. It's nice to be right once in a while .
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=98035\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Ray, you are right and I was wrong. Machapuchare is certainly visible from Poon Hill. It just was not visible in your originally posted panorama. My mistake.
But the best view of Machapuchare is from the Annapurna Base Camp.
Here is my photo from that location:
[attachment=1691:attachment]
--Misha
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Very impressive shot, Misha. Looks like a volcano ready to explode. You didn't by any chance exaggerate those reds, did you?
I was thinking of trekking to the ABC on my next trip to Nepal, perhaps in October. On my last trek, November 2006, I was in 2 minds whether to continue from Ghandruk to the ABC or head back to Pokhara. The weather took a turn for the worse and I was doubtful that I could change my flight dates, Kathmandu to Bangkok (Thai Airways) and Bangkok to Australia (China Airlines) from that remote area. Those 2 factors worked together to dissuade me from extending my trek.
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Misha or Jani,
As a matter of interest, looking at this peak, Machupichre, I notice there's another peak, just visible, poking up on the right slope of Machupichre. Taking a ruler to my National Geographic map of the area, this would appear to be Annapurna 4 (7535m), right?
The map also indicates that Annapurna 1 should be visible between the 'Fang' and Annapurna South, but closer to the 'Fang'. Clear blue-sky shots of this area have no indication of any more distant peak between the Fang and Annapurna South.
Should Wikipedia be amended? Does anyone care?
[attachment=1699:attachment]
ps. Unfortunately, when I was on Poon Hill, there was some cloud in this region. The clear shots from the web are rather low resolution images. If the sky had been completely clear when I was there, my 100-400 zoom might have picked up some hint of a distant peak behind, and slightly to the right of, the Fang.
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Misha or Jani,
As a matter of interest, looking at this peak, Machupichre, I notice there's another peak, just visible, poking up on the right slope of Machupichre. Taking a ruler to my National Geographic map of the area, this would appear to be Annapurna 4 (7535m), right?
The map also indicates that Annapurna 1 should be visible between the 'Fang' and Annapurna South, but closer to the 'Fang'. Clear blue-sky shots of this area have no indication of any more distant peak between the Fang and Annapurna South.
Should Wikipedia be amended? Does anyone care?
[attachment=1699:attachment]
ps. Unfortunately, when I was on Poon Hill, there was some cloud in this region. The clear shots from the web are rather low resolution images. If the sky had been completely clear when I was there, my 100-400 zoom might have picked up some hint of a distant peak behind, and slightly to the right of, the Fang.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=98206\")
Ray, I believe you are correct about Annapurna IV. Good observation. Still not convinced about visibility of Annapurna I from behind the Fang.
And to reply to your:
You didn't by any chance exaggerate those reds, did you? biggrin.gif
No, I only adjusted levels in that photo. The mountain really looked "on fire". The sun was quite low at that point, and suddenly shot up through the narrow gorge up into the clouds and colored everything red. Despite the cold everyone in the guest houses ran outside to snap photos.
Do you have your images from Nepal on the web somewhere? I only had a small 4MP P&S with me on the trek (going "Light and Fast"), but still managed to capture a few interesting shots, I believe. Take a look here if interested: [a href=\"http://public.fotki.com/mtselman/the-trip/nepal/annapurna]http://public.fotki.com/mtselman/the-trip/nepal/annapurna[/url]
--Misha
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That's a well organised site, Misha. You have some really interesting shots there.
I'm afraid I haven't found the time yet to organise my own site. I haven't even sorted through the shots taken at Poon Hill yet. I've fallen into the digital trap of taking too many images. I just recently suffered a failed external hard drive and lost days of work I'd spent organising 140GB of RAW images taken on my last trip to Nepal and Cambodia.
Looking through your Annapurna Album I noticed the following shot taken at the Hindu temple at Muktinath, and wondered how I'd missed that. Perhaps the lighting wasn't interesting at the time of day I was there. Nice shot!
[attachment=1700:attachment]
On second thoughts, I wondered if it was at the same temple I photographed at Muktinath, shown below. Perhaps it was not at the same location?
[attachment=1701:attachment]
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That's a well organised site, Misha. You have some really interesting shots there.
I'm afraid I haven't found the time yet to organise my own site. I haven't even sorted through the shots taken at Poon Hill yet. I've fallen into the digital trap of taking too many images. I just recently suffered a failed external hard drive and lost days of work I'd spent organising 140GB of RAW images taken on my last trip to Nepal and Cambodia.
Looking through your Annapurna Album I noticed the following shot taken at the Hindu temple at Muktinath, and wondered how I'd missed that. Perhaps the lighting wasn't interesting at the time of day I was there. Nice shot!
[attachment=1700:attachment]
On second thoughts, I wondered if it was at the same temple I photographed at Muktinath, shown below. Perhaps it was not at the same location?
[attachment=1701:attachment]
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=98302\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Ray, thanks for your comment! I saw your posts about the failed hard drive - unlucky... Good you still had back-ups. It's also taking me months to organise my photos from a 1.5 years of travels, but I'm making progress.
Our photos from Muktinath are of the same temple. As you can see in your shot, the "cow's mouthes" line up the inner perimeter of the pentagon surrounding the temple. I took my photo standing in the far left corner of that pentagon and aming along the wall.
--Misha