Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: mcbroomf on January 20, 2007, 11:16:25 pm

Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: mcbroomf on January 20, 2007, 11:16:25 pm
I just recieved my z3100 and set it up, but I've had problems on the 1st 3 prints I've tried.

No issues with setup. calibration or profiling, but the 1st 20x30 print I made on HM FAP started off OK but about 1/2 way showed some slight bands, then very muted colours and flat greys (birch trunks in deep shadow that had good mid to deep grey contrast).

I realised that I'd profiled using thick fine art > 250 as the paper type (realised this when I had no access to gloss enhancer), so I reprofiled using semigloss/satin photo paper and ran another print.  This time the colours seemed good across the print, but I got what I think look like head strikes in 5 or 6 columns down the print.  They appear as narrow striped white columns that fade in and out from 1/4 to 1/2" across, alternating white bands/stripes and print colour bands, about 1/16" or so thick.

I checked out the troubleshoting guide and couldn't find this specific problem, but I thought it was possible that I'd left the paper setting in the driver at photo gloss and it might be thinner, I printed the imbedded test pattern and saw no problems, so I tried to print a 9 x 22" section after carefully setting the paper type as satin/semigloss.  I got the same problem again with the lines.

I saw no problems like this in either the calibraqtion or the profiling patterns (the latter run across the whole width of the roll).

Has anyone had this issue?  Have you identified the problem snd fixed it?  
What paper type do you set up Hahnemuhle Fine Art Pearl on the printer?  
How about Hahnemuhle PR 308.  I have a roll of this too and may try a print tomorrow depending on how things go with FAP.

Thanks,

Mike
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: mcbroomf on January 21, 2007, 06:10:12 pm
Continued problems with no root cause or solution at present.

After a couple of additional short test prints (no more full size ones for the time being  ) that repeated the problem I began to wonder if I may have a bad roll of 24" HM FAP, so I switched to a roll of Epson Premium Lustre that I'd used a few times on my Epson 4000.  It's also thinner than the HM FAP.  

Before I calibrated and profiled the Epson paper I used the troubleshooting guide to run through the HP solutions to fix banding (although this did not look like banding), they suggest a head clean, a head alignment, and a paper feed check.  Unfortunately the head clean is done using the same special kind of wipes that come with the heads and are used when they are initially installed, so of corse mine had all been discarded and the printer comes with no spares.  I reluctantly skipped the head clean step and ran the head align and paper feed check.  No issues that I could see with the test prints made by those steps.  So I tried the EPP Lustre.

No problems with the calibration or profile patterns (but I'd had none with the 24" HM FAP).  A short test print looked OK, so I committed a 16x24....bad idea.  This time I did not get the zebra stripe columns as I'm now officially calling them, but this time I got faint horizontal bands, pretty subtle as I didn't notice them until I got the print out and under some brighter lights  In fact there appear to be 2 problems on this print, a repeating band about every inch or so, 1/8" wide and very slightly darker, and then a much more distinct dark band about 1 inch from the end of the print, this one about 1/4" but with less distinct edges.

I imagine I'll be talking to HP tomorrow.

Mike
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: adiallo on January 21, 2007, 07:10:30 pm
I haven't experienced any of these problems, but as a stab in the dark, did you shake the carts before installing them? Are your ambient temp and humidity in the recommended range min 30%RH and 74F?
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: mcbroomf on January 21, 2007, 07:17:36 pm
Hi Amadou,
Thanks for the suggestions.  Yes, I did shake them, this is the same technique the Epson cartridges need and I've been using the 4000 for nearly 3 years now with no issues.  My temp is definitely OK.  I don't know the humidity but I'd expect that it pretty normal.
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: mcbroomf on January 21, 2007, 08:55:18 pm
I signed onto the HP website looking for their support FAQ etc.  Nothing there of any use, but I checked their z3100 forum and found less than a dozen posts, one of which described what sounds very much the zebra stripes on mine with the 24" HM FAP.
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: neil snape on January 21, 2007, 11:45:16 pm
Quote
I signed onto the HP website looking for their support FAQ etc.  Nothing there of any use, but I checked their z3100 forum and found less than a dozen posts, one of which described what sounds very much the zebra stripes on mine with the 24" HM FAP.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=96906\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Could be a number of things.

One is air in the lines. Unlikely though as the calibration didn't show.
Two is the driver. On the 9180 some have said there are fine white lines when using the PS plug in on Windows only.

Head strikes show as gouges not density differences. Also highly unlikely if the calibration and profiles are fine.

I would try an advanced alignment. It's under some strange name in the printer diagnosis or print samples somewhere. I'd also see if the span of the head path is flat. The calibrations and profile charts are good so in this area it must be. Perhaps the other side is out of whack.
HP will have more info on what to do, on this I'm sure.
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: AImagery on January 22, 2007, 09:25:54 am
Hi Neil,

Same problem here. I used Hahnemule FineArt Perl 13X19. The weird thing is, it will print fine if I feed paper vertically and produce "zebra" lines described by Mike if place paper horizontally.

After careful observation I concluded that part of the print head carriage is striking paper and physically stripping part of the emulsion.  

Weight of the paper is 285gsm, way bellow 500gsm limit.
I profile this paper under Photo Semigloss group.

Had no problem printing on much thicker paper profiled under Fine Art Papers group.

On top of that I started to loose some of my pizza wheels.

And can any body enlighten me why HP driver is not acting correct when you change between landscape and portrait mode? I have to rotate my image in Photoshop to be able to print it correct.

Andre Aloshine
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: mcbroomf on January 22, 2007, 10:58:50 am
Hi Andre,
I just spent some time on the phone with HP support.  
I had to add an extension to my USB cable as my 16' cable is not long enough (the z3100 connection is on the far left of the printer, in quite a different place to my Epson 4000).  They suggested that as the profiles look fine but the prints look bad this could be a communication problem.  They also agreed with Neil's comment that a head strike would scuff the ink, while the marks on my FAP prints are dead white.  The file I sent to the printer using Epsom Premium Lustre was a good bit smaller.
Are you using USB, and are you using a long cable?
Are you getting the marks on your profile patterns, or just your prints?
Can you describe what you mean by "losing pizza wheels" please?  I did ask how the paper is held flat and was told that the HP has no vaccuum like the Epsons.  The support tech told me that it uses star wheels to hold the paper flat.  I assume this is what you mean.  Are they breaking off?
I'll be trying to print from my laptop tonight using the same test files and also from CS2, the same as my desktop, but only a 3 foot USB.

By the way, I think landscape/portrait only refers to the orientation of your image, not the paper.  The printer expects to see sheet paper loaded on the short side.  Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but every printer I've used does the same.
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: AImagery on January 22, 2007, 12:26:56 pm
Quote
Hi Andre,
I just spent some time on the phone with HP support. 
I had to add an extension to my USB cable as my 16' cable is not long enough (the z3100 connection is on the far left of the printer, in quite a different place to my Epson 4000).  They suggested that as the profiles look fine but the prints look bad this could be a communication problem.  They also agreed with Neil's comment that a head strike would scuff the ink, while the marks on my FAP prints are dead white.  The file I sent to the printer using Epsom Premium Lustre was a good bit smaller.
Are you using USB, and are you using a long cable?
Are you getting the marks on your profile patterns, or just your prints?
Can you describe what you mean by "losing pizza wheels" please?  I did ask how the paper is held flat and was told that the HP has no vaccuum like the Epsons.  The support tech told me that it uses star wheels to hold the paper flat.  I assume this is what you mean.  Are they breaking off?
I'll be trying to print from my laptop tonight using the same test files and also from CS2, the same as my desktop, but only a 3 foot USB.

By the way, I think landscape/portrait only refers to the orientation of your image, not the paper.  The printer expects to see sheet paper loaded on the short side.  Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but every printer I've used does the same.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=96984\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Hi Mike,

I'm using 3 feet cord. In my case HP guys can't blame this on communications problems.

In regard to Neils comment: it does make scuff marks (at list in my case).
To illustrate this I attached sample file. It is clearly physical contact of sharp and very thin part of the carriage with paper.

Star wheels= pizza wheels.
Yes they are braking out. It is known problem and HP is working to fix that.

In regards of Portrait- Landscape orientation, it looks like HP released half-cooked driver. It doesn't behave normally. It is complicated to
explain but you will recognize this when you will try to print your horizontally oriented images.

Cheers,

Andre

P.S.  HP set me up with printer technician. I will let you know results of the visit.
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: mcbroomf on January 22, 2007, 12:54:17 pm
Hi Andre,
Thanks for posting the sample pic, it looks very much like mine.  I'll check my cable of course but this doesn't look good, I had some hopes that it might be a simple fix.

I've sent both landscape and portrait images to the paper I've been printing on with no issues, but I've only printed on rolls so far.
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: Christopher on January 22, 2007, 01:54:40 pm
One question, is there a minimum size ? I mean do the prints have to be bigger than A4 ? A3 ? A2 or A1 to see the problem, or is it also visible in smaller prints ?
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: AImagery on January 22, 2007, 02:10:42 pm
Quote
Hi Andre,
Thanks for posting the sample pic, it looks very much like mine.  I'll check my cable of course but this doesn't look good, I had some hopes that it might be a simple fix.

I've sent both landscape and portrait images to the paper I've been printing on with no issues, but I've only printed on rolls so far.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=97009\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Hi Make,

Try to print 13X19 horizontal(landscape) on vertical paper 13w by 19h

Good luck      

Andre
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: jule on January 22, 2007, 03:22:02 pm
I was making a few enquiries about this printer, and the rep advised me before I gave it consideration - (as he knew I was an artist) , that the printer works best with paper up to 250 gsm, marginal between 250 and 300gsm, and not to consider papers above 300gsm because of 'fine lines appearing on the print - like zebra lines."

Interesting that he used the same terms you have. I have not seen any prints, nor the machine, so I cannot be certain, but it sounds like someone in HP knows there is a bit of a problem, or their machine is doing the same thing.

Julie
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: Christopher on January 22, 2007, 04:13:27 pm
Quote
I was making a few enquiries about this printer, and the rep advised me before I gave it consideration - (as he knew I was an artist) , that the printer works best with paper up to 250 gsm, marginal between 250 and 300gsm, and not to consider papers above 300gsm because of 'fine lines appearing on the print - like zebra lines."

Interesting that he used the same terms you have. I have not seen any prints, nor the machine, so I cannot be certain, but it sounds like someone in HP knows there is a bit of a problem, or their machine is doing the same thing.

Julie
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=97037\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Now I really don't think HP will be that stupid. Ok lets first look what comes out, but a printer only working good till 250 is a joke. My Printer would be faster gone before it was here ;-)
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: AImagery on January 22, 2007, 04:19:08 pm
Some more problems.

After installing new firmware 4.0.0.6 and new drivers from HP website as suggested by tech support rep, printer does not calibrate any more. System Error message 58:10.

"The printer's color sensor is not working well. Color reading operation may fail. If the problem persists,call HP."

So much for improved firmware functionality.

So far this printer lives up to its over hyped marketing massage. It is very consistent in its inconsistency.  

Cheers,

Andre
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: Christopher on January 22, 2007, 04:36:19 pm
Quote
Some more problems.

After installing new firmware 4.0.0.6 and new drivers from HP website as suggested by tech support rep, printer does not calibrate any more. System Error message 58:10.

"The printer's color sensor is not working well. Color reading operation may fail. If the problem persists,call HP."

So much for improved firmware functionality.

So far this printer lives up to its over hyped marketing massage. It is very consistent in its inconsistency.  

Cheers,

Andre
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=97053\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Sorry to hear that. I wanted to install the firmware right now. Now I'm not so sure anymore if I really should do it :-(
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: deelight on January 22, 2007, 05:46:40 pm
Quote
Sorry to hear that. I wanted to install the firmware right now. Now I'm not so sure anymore if I really should do it :-(
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I already run the 3100 on the new firmware 4.0.0.6 from the HP website, no problems up to print size 1,30m x 0,60m.

I work on Mac G5 10.4 - from Photoshop via Ethernet.

No reason not to install the Firmware from my point...
Best,

Clem
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: mcbroomf on January 22, 2007, 05:59:07 pm
Chris, I don't know if the problem appears on smaller prints, I only have 17 and 24" rolls.

Andre, for the same reason I can't print on any cut paper, but yesterday on 17 Epson Premium Lustre I had regular banding but not the zebra stripes.

I have just tried a print with the supplied HP USB cable from my laptop and I got one faint mark, so this does not seem to be the solution.  The fact that it's only one instead of 5 or 6 is not much of a surprise as yesterday I was getting only 2 columns on some tests.  I'm printing another as I type.

I took a photo of an area from one of yesterday's just to show how similar it is to your problem Andre.  The interesting thing here is that in the dark area between the top and bottom sections you can see that there is colour amid the faint scuffs, so I'm confident now with your and Neils's comments that it's a head strike.

Oh well, the next test came off and it's got 2 very obvious columns.

Andre, thanks for the warning about the firmaware update.
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: mcbroomf on January 22, 2007, 06:00:53 pm
Quote
I was making a few enquiries about this printer, and the rep advised me before I gave it consideration - (as he knew I was an artist) , that the printer works best with paper up to 250 gsm, marginal between 250 and 300gsm, and not to consider papers above 300gsm because of 'fine lines appearing on the print - like zebra lines."

Interesting that he used the same terms you have. I have not seen any prints, nor the machine, so I cannot be certain, but it sounds like someone in HP knows there is a bit of a problem, or their machine is doing the same thing.

Julie
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=97037\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Julie,
Thanks for mentioning this, it is clearly a know issue and very depressing if they know of this susceptibility..
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: Christopher on January 22, 2007, 06:06:35 pm
Ok just a short note:

I know printed a 13*19 photo with HM Photo Rag 306. I had no problems at all, but first of all it was fed from a roll and it wasn't so big. Know I really would like to test it but right now I don't have anything larger than the 13*19 expect the Glossy Paper HP supplied, but we all know that there is no problem.

Did Someone tried to print on Rolls with 13*19 or does someone has any marks on a 13*19 sheets ? I have some laying around. ( Innova F-Type, which is could be close to HM FAP )

If you also have the marks on 13*19 prints, than I will check it with a sheet or two.
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: mcbroomf on January 22, 2007, 09:14:04 pm
Well it looks like Julie's rep knew what he was talking about.

After my last post I called HP tech support again.  I got a different guy this time.

After re-reading the information in my case he made the following comments during our conversation.  They are quoted pretty close to verbatim as I wrote them down after I hung up.

"Yes, I know what this is, it's the print heads scuffing the paper.
I can reproduce this here.
It only happens on Hahnemuhle right?
It only happens with thicker media.
It is due to the paper curl and stiffness.
We have only known about this for about a week.
Engineering are working on it but don't currently have a solution."

He suggested a work around of uncurling the paper and feeding cut sheets, but that's not acceptable to me as I only want to use 24" rolls with this printer.  He also said that it may not work every time.  The curl and the stiffness of the paper are key, the paper lifts up off the bed (?) after it's fed in as it's got such a strong curl.  He said you can see it if you lift the cover and shine a light inside.  I haven't done this to confirm it, but without vacuum to hold the paper I can believe it.  

I asked how I should return the printer and he said to go through my supplier and if I had trouble to use my case number.  I'm pretty sure it's going back, although I may give HP Engineering a week to see what they come up with.  I will obviously be making no more test prints, long or short, it's cost me enough as it is.  

My concerns if I keep it are as follows;
1) This seems like a re-engineer of the system used to flatten the paper.  How well can this be retrofitted in the field, if at all?
2) How robust will any fix be?  The curl is going to get worse at the end of a roll of paper.  What about other papers, now and in the future?  Will they test them all?  Will it work now and then need another modification for a future generation paper?

I do wonder if this problem is more likely to happen on 24" rolls than 17".  Perhaps someone will test this out.  Given Christopher's comment that HM Photo Rag 308 was OK printed 13x19 I wonder if it's a peculiarity of FAP, or 24" rolls, or some interaction.

Just to keep all of the pertinent information in this string I will take photos of the problem I ran into on my 1st print when I mistakenly profiles using Fine Art > 250 paper type.  This did not have the zebra stripes, but the greys lost definition towards the end of the print, as though I had lost a dark grey or black.

Lastly for Michael, perhaps you could make inquiries with HP about this issue.  It is clearly a recent problem, but I (and others that are affected I'm sure) need to know soon what, if any, kind of engineering fix may be possible.

Thanks
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: neil snape on January 23, 2007, 02:07:25 am
First the firmware 4.0.6 is okay on all the beta printers I know of. On mine it works fine as far as feed goes, and all calibrations etc. There are some small bugs that have been relayed but nothing to do with what is in this thread.

I have or had  two rolls of Hahnemuhle Photo Rag 308 here. I had no problems with printing with the 4.0.6 firmware on a Mac. I didn't try on the PC though. I only use Ethernet. If at all possible use Ethernet , as USB will never be as trouble free.

The media orientation can be a culprit , and has been with not only HP but the other makers too in some cases. I hope they can find and fix any discrepancies fast between these 2 orientation modes.

Paper thickness.   A fine art printer made some tests on Arches Torchon non coated media which is over 500 g/m2 and double the recommended thickness. It printed without head strikes. It is also very rigid. Yet it is quite flat. Maybe it is the thick media that cockle (buckle or wave) under and or during printing with ink loads. This could be the major factor here. HP do and have fully tested their long time supplied media for the older 5500 . Yet if they can and have been able to repro the cockle on their machines then it wasn't happening to all media all the time.

It is simply not true about the media weights. Possibly the thickness if the problem in this thread perceives but weight is not restricted to less than 300 nor 250. My favourite media is the Satin Professional which is +300g/m2. Flawless. So I think it must be a set of conditions mostly around cockle which are image and environmental condition dependent.

Keep this thread alive, hope to hear HP respond with a viable solution quickly.
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: Roscolo on January 23, 2007, 05:13:57 am
Sounds like HP got everything right except leaving off a vacuum.

Thanks for posting this info. as I was very close to purchasing this printer. The vast majority of my printing is done on 300 + gsm papers, so I'm holding off for now. Looks like I'm back to the Canon ipf5000, or 8000, or hopefully the ipf6000 will show up soon.

Sure HP will get the kinks worked out eventually. The obvious solution seems to be that a wide format printer should always have a vacuum.
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: ternst on January 23, 2007, 06:38:19 am
"I only use Ethernet. If at all possible use Ethernet , as USB will never be as trouble free."

Neil:

I was having major issues with Ethernet on my Mac and the z (printing would stop in the middle of almost every print and then once printing resumed, it would only lay down the gloss ink and nothing else - covered the entire sheet with gloss ink - the cancel command would not work - wasted a lot of paper and gloss ink). HP support told me to only use USB. I moved the printer to my desktop so I could use USB and the problem has only happened once since then. Go figure.

"My favourite media is the Satin Professional which is +300g/m2. Flawless."

I've been waiting for this paper but HP still has none in stock to sell to mortals like the rest of us and they are now showing a month or more delivery date - do you have any idea when this might actually be in stock for sale to the public? From the samples I've seen it looks like a wonderful paper, I just wish they would sell it...

Tim Ernst in Arkansas
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: mcbroomf on January 23, 2007, 08:48:15 am
Quote
.... Maybe it is the thick media that cockle (buckle or wave) under and or during printing with ink loads. This could be the major factor here....

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Neil, that is a very good point and does coincide with a couple of observations with the stripes I've had.

The stripes have always been worse (more stripes or more evident) on prints I've made which have heavy ink.  The snapshot I posted earlier was the reflection off the ocean of a very early dark almost predawn clear sky, so it was very deep and dark blue/indigo.  Laying down this much ink would change the stress of the paper a lot more than on an image with a lighter mix of busy detail, and in fact on 2 test prints I made of a Cape Cod pine forest, while I could see the marks they were much less evident.

One thing I could not understand was that towards the end of the print there was a dark band, about 3/8" deep or so (also shown in the snapshot).  This was evident on all of the prints and test prints that had heavy ink.  I realised that this again could be due to the paper stress change, but this time it would be because at the end of the print the rear heads stop putting ink on the paper abruptly at the trailing edge of the image, while the front heads continue to lay down ink.  The clean edge of the paper continues to feed further into the printer and it will change the stress/buckle/wave characteristics of the whole section under the heads causing a different band as the print comes to the end.

For those people who have yet to experience this problem it might be worthwhile printing a full width dark print with little detail to see if you get even inking across the image (top to bottom).
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: Christopher on January 23, 2007, 01:38:24 pm
Ok new or old problem ?

Ok I couldn't get the Zebra strips on my z3100, but that's pherhaps because I'm not using anything larger than 13in at the moment. ( A Pano around 13*30 on HM Photo Rag was fine.)

Now I tried some printing on Innova F-Type Gloss ( The glossy version ). I calibrated it and profiles it. Now I have some very strange strips on them. Even at A4 and on 13*19. It goes down all the way, but is only visible against the light. ( So it was kind of hard to photogrpah) They go from top to bottom. They run in print direction. So in a portrait picture from top to bottom. They are across the hole print. They are not always the same strength. They nearly look like roller marks. But that's strange ... I don't have anything like that on my Epson Glossy or on my HM Photo Rag prints..


I hope the Photos show what I mean.
[attachment=1607:attachment]
[attachment=1608:attachment]

Any one similar problem ?

EDIT: I even have them in the calibrtaion target.
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: adiallo on January 23, 2007, 03:47:01 pm
Christopher,
In tests here last week I also found some print issues with the Innova FType Gloss. It definitely does not seem to be a good match for the Vivera pigments. I calibrated using the density aim points and ink loads triggered by the Photo Semigloss/Satin setting and get similar artifacts, but much less sever than in your example. The bigger issue is that on actual prints there is some mottling in shadow areas that is clearly visible at various print angles.

As always it's important to match the paper to the ink. Disappointing, but if that is the trade-off for the HP's greater longevity performance, I can live with choosing another paper. No issues so far on 3rd party matte papers and the HP branded papers, matte ang glossy look fine.
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: Christopher on January 23, 2007, 03:55:27 pm
Quote
Christopher,
In tests here last week I also found some print issues with the Innova FType Gloss. It definitely does not seem to be a good match for the Vivera pigments. I calibrated using the density aim points and ink loads triggered by the Photo Semigloss/Satin setting and get similar artifacts, but much less sever than in your example. The bigger issue is that on actual prints there is some mottling in shadow areas that is clearly visible at various print angles.

As always it's important to match the paper to the ink. Disappointing, but if that is the trade-off for the HP's greater longevity performance, I can live with choosing another paper. No issues so far on 3rd party matte papers and the HP branded papers, matte ang glossy look fine.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=97212\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Yes I mean it doesn't bother me that much. It's a nice paper, but still not what I would like to have. I would never sell my photographs on this paper.
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: dkeyes on January 24, 2007, 02:54:16 am
Wow, I have just ordered the 3100 44" and after reading this discussion I'm thinking of cancelling it. I print mostly on glossy media and Hanemule rag, but I also need to use Ethernet since my printer is 40' away (in the basement studio). My files are large, 300+mg. Am I asking for trouble using Ethernet and this printer? Not to mention I hadn't thought about the lack of a vacuum on this printer. This seems to be a problem with some papers.
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: Christopher on January 24, 2007, 03:03:25 am
Quote
Wow, I have just ordered the 3100 44" and after reading this discussion I'm thinking of cancelling it. I print mostly on glossy media and Hanemule rag, but I also need to use Ethernet since my printer is 40' away (in the basement studio). My files are large, 300+mg. Am I asking for trouble using Ethernet and this printer? Not to mention I hadn't thought about the lack of a vacuum on this printer. This seems to be a problem with some papers.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=97274\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Ok the following. I use a 15 meter Ethernet cable and have printed two over 500mb files with no problems. I also don't have any problems with HM Photo Rag so far. Also most real glossy papers work wonderful. ( Ilford Glossy, Epson Glossy, HM Glossy, and I LOVE the HP Glossy) Now The only problems I noticed som far is with Inova F-Type Gloss. Now there must be said, that I haven't printed larger than 13*19 yet. I first want to decide what paper I will use before buying expensive rolls.

I'm still not 100% sure, that these problems are typical for the z3100 series, or if only some very specific problems. Why ? First fo all the HP Forum is pretty clean only two or three posts about it. Here we also don't have many more posts. I know of people using it without any problems.

Now one question at Micheal:

Have you tried printing on larger rolls with Fine Art Paper ? Like HM FAP or More important Photo Rag 306 ?


One problem could be that the driver/printer has problems with heavy Glossy paper wich is profiles under glossy/pearl.

Edit: I have the 44 version.
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: dkeyes on January 24, 2007, 03:17:33 am
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Ok the following. I use a 15 meter Ethernet cable and have printed two over 500mb files with no problems. I also don't have any problems with HM Photo Rag so far. Also most real glossy papers work wonderful. ( Ilford Glossy, Epson Glossy, HM Glossy, and I LOVE the HP Glossy) Now The only problems I noticed som far is with Inova F-Type Gloss. Now there must be said, that I haven't printed larger than 13*19 yet. I first want to decide what paper I will use before buying expensive rolls.


Christopher,
Glad to hear your having success using Ethernet. I have been using the Epson Glossy and Innova F-Type gloss on the Epson 9800. Both look great, with the Epson being slightly warmer. The Innova has slightly better blacks I think. Will be interesting to print exact same prints on exact same papers on the HP 3100 now. How does the HP Glossy compare to these two papers?

What's still troubling, and I can't believe I didn't notice this before I ordered the printer is the lack of a vacuum. How can these printers handle the paper accurately without a vacuum? When I've used the Epson 9800, the vacuum, which is adjustable, sometimes makes the difference between having scuff lines and no lines on the print.
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: Christopher on January 24, 2007, 08:28:13 am
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Christopher,
Glad to hear your having success using Ethernet. I have been using the Epson Glossy and Innova F-Type gloss on the Epson 9800. Both look great, with the Epson being slightly warmer. The Innova has slightly better blacks I think. Will be interesting to print exact same prints on exact same papers on the HP 3100 now. How does the HP Glossy compare to these two papers?

What's still troubling, and I can't believe I didn't notice this before I ordered the printer is the lack of a vacuum. How can these printers handle the paper accurately without a vacuum? When I've used the Epson 9800, the vacuum, which is adjustable, sometimes makes the difference between having scuff lines and no lines on the print.
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As I said, I don't have any problems yet, but I haven't printed so large. Now I have two prints sitting here from the M8 one printed on Epson and one on HP. It is really hard to tell. they look both close, but if I shut my eyes and stwitch them around ( And move them into diffrent light or position) than look again and guess wich one I like better I picked the HP 8 out of 10 times.  Now as you know F-Type Gloss doesn't work, or at least not with my printer. The quality is nice, but there are all the ???"roller" marks??? over them. I don't have an x800 series printer but I still got my R2400 and compared to that I prefer the Gloss fom the Z in both prints. It looks more even more .... hm let's say better. (it would be easier to descrip it for me in German ;-) )

No the Vacuum is a thing, but I'm not sure if your really need it. A few things about that. IF these problems would be on many printers and papers, we would here much more about them. ALSO I think HP wouldn't make this kind of mistake. I still believe that they knew exactly what they did when leaving the Pump out. In really think the problem is software related. I can't proof it, because I don't have any larger rolls here but here is what I think:

The problems accure than the paper is profiled as Glossy or Pearl Paper. ( Which you would do with HM FAP to use the GLOP ) Mike first used the Fine Art paper setting and made a print. As I recall the print was absolutly fine. I mean no Strips or anything, just the bad colors and banding because of the wrong paper setting. NOW IF the poblem would be that the printer can't handle HM FAP in general, then shouldn't be the same strips in his first print ? I think that the paper you choose in the calibration mode changes the paper handling in general.


One more note, did you try to change the paper thickness in your color center ? I mean because all glossy are normaly calibrated as "normal", and Fine Art Papers like the HM Photo Rag is calibrated as "thick" medium. So did you try to change that setting ?

Ok that's all what I know so far, and as long as I don't have any larger paper I can't reproduce the strips. ( But sorry, but I won't by only for that purpose a HM FAP roll which I will never use again.)
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: Christopher on January 24, 2007, 08:46:54 am
Ok some more news from my side. Now I have actually tested my theory. As I said I got problems with F-Type Gloss and the Z3100 printer. Which gave me strange strips.
Now in the post above I said you should try to use the thick setting. I did that. I Used the thick option, and I was suprised. The makrs are still there, but nearly not visible. Now It's MUCH better. Still not good enough, for Fine Art, but if I compare it to the marks before, than it is a world apart. Before everyone noticed them on the first try. Now it is harder to see it.

I still think it's something cehmical which produces them. Some kind of reaction between the ink and the paper coating.
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: Roscolo on January 24, 2007, 09:07:53 am
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I'm still not 100% sure, that these problems are typical for the z3100 series, or if only some very specific problems. Why ? First fo all the HP Forum is pretty clean only two or three posts about it. Here we also don't have many more posts. I know of people using it without any problems.


[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=97275\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Could you post a link to the HP forum?

I don't have the z3100 yet, but I bid a pretty large print job and it looks like I'm going to get it, so I have to make a decision within a week, 10 days on a new printer. Not so crazy about that, because I would like to see what type of beast the canon ipf6000 turns out to be.

If the problem you are experiencing is limited to a few printers that may be out of whack, the z3100 is still an option for me. If media over 300 gsm can't be printed out consistently and reliably without these unacceptable marks on the print, I just don't have time for HP to try to solve the problem.

Thanks for the info.
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: mcbroomf on January 24, 2007, 09:24:16 am
Quote
......
The problems accure than the paper is profiled as Glossy or Pearl Paper. ( Which you would do with HM FAP to use the GLOP ) Mike first used the Fine Art paper setting and made a print. As I recall the print was absolutly fine. I mean no Strips or anything, just the bad colors and banding because of the wrong paper setting. NOW IF the poblem would be that the printer can't handle HM FAP in general, then shouldn't be the same strips in his first print ? I think that the paper you choose in the calibration mode changes the paper handling in general......

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Yes, on the 1st print I made I had profiled HM FAP as a "Fine Art > 250gsm" paper, not Photo Semigloss (I may have the names a little off, I'm not with the printer right now).  I didn't get the zebra stripes on that print, and in fact the 1st 1/2 of the print looked great.  The image I was printing is a little busy, but about 1/2 way though I saw some faint banding on a tree trunk, and by the end of the print all of the greys had gone flat, as though I had lost black.  It was then that I reprofiled the HM FAP using the Photo semigloss paper type setting and ran into stripes.  I think that when you choose FA paper > 250 setting it leaves a larger gap between the heads and the paper.  This may for some reason be why the GE can't be used, I don't know, but it would make sense why there is less of an issue if that's the case.  By the way the additional profile patterns and prints I made were fine for all colours, so clearly the black head is OK, so I have no idea why I got that strange effect.

I spoke one last time to HP Tech support yesterday.  I wanted to see if they could give me some idea if we could expect a fix for this soon.  Given that they have been able to reproduce this on their 3100's in the office they don't have to rely on the odd bad system in the field, so I was hoping for some relatively promising news, and if it was then I would make the call on keeping or returning the printer.

I spoke to a different guy than the last 2, however he was also aware of the problem, and had run tests himself and been able to demonstrate it.   He made the following comments during our conversation;

"Probably a month or 2.  This is a long term fix, there is no "quick fix" for this like a firware update.
Able to reproduce it on gloss media, not heavy weight but a paper with a noticeable curl due to the coating.
Also seen it on Photo Satins."

I asked him if he could tell me if there was printer to printer variation (eg we have people here who have printers that are working well, while mine and Andre's have produced nothing good).  He said that once they found a paper that is susceptible to the problem they can reproduce it on all printers (I didn't ask how many they have).

I mentioned that I had seen the problem more easily on images with heavy ink loading and he agreed that this would change the paper curl characteristics and make it more likely to happen.

I had meant to take a few photos of the 1st image I printer and post them last night just to keep all the info in one place.  I should get a chance to do that tonight.
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: mcbroomf on January 24, 2007, 09:28:25 am
Here's a link to the page for HP support for designjets, click on Support Forums.
At one time I found a different forum or discussion group just for the 3100, and one guy (Tim) had posted a message indicating he had a stripe problem.  I can't find my way back to that page now althogh I posted a reply to it myself.

http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsupport/TechS...0&lang=en&cc=us (http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsupport/TechSupport/Home.jsp?&lang=en&cc=us&prodTypeId=18972&prodSeriesId=3204970&lang=en&cc=us)
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: Jim Cole on January 24, 2007, 12:34:16 pm
Try this link to HP Z3100 Support and look down under the "Forums" heading. This may be where you were.

http://h41186.www4.hp.com/country/us/en/su...?pageseq=831457 (http://h41186.www4.hp.com/country/us/en/support/Z3100.html?pageseq=831457)

Jim Cole
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: mcbroomf on January 24, 2007, 01:02:33 pm
Yes!  
This is it, thanks Jim.  Tim Gray had mentioned this problem, but he posted under the hardware section not print quality.  I followed his post with a Me Too post.  That forum is getting practically no action though.  I posted a link to this string in case he or others are still reading it.
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: mcbroomf on January 24, 2007, 01:39:17 pm
I exchanged an email with Michael Reichmann, asking if he could make inquiries with some engineering contacts he may have made when he visited HP in Barcelona, but he replied and told me that he will soon be on the road for a month and due to time pressures could not help.   In any case it's good to have his forum to discuss the problem.

Today however I got a call from the HP account manager for Charrette (who supplied my printer).  He told me that he expects HP to stand by their product and fix it.  I later got an email from him to let me know that he has set up a call for tomorrow with a representative from HP Engineering in Barcelona.  I'm trying to move the call to a time I don't have a conflict, but I hope either tomorrow or Friday I'll be able to relay the information I get.
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: mcbroomf on January 24, 2007, 07:37:49 pm
This is the 2nd print out of the z3100, it shows the whole image and you can see 5 columns of the zebra stripes.  20x30 on HM FAP with ICC profile made using Photo Semiglass as the paper type.
Ignore the damage that might just be visible 1/3 of the way up on the left, an accident while it was lying on the floor.
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: mcbroomf on January 24, 2007, 07:41:06 pm
A crop from the right bottom corner of the 1st print, the leading edge.  Looks great to start!  20x30 on HM FAP using Photo semiglass > 250gsm as the paper type when I profiled.
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: mcbroomf on January 24, 2007, 07:43:27 pm
A centre crop.  The larger trunk just right of middle has some vertical dotted bands.  Not too clear in this image I'm afraid.  The gresy are getting bland.
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: mcbroomf on January 24, 2007, 07:45:33 pm
Lastly, the left corner.  No banding, but the greys have gone completely flat.
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: Roscolo on January 24, 2007, 08:54:44 pm
My sympathies. That has got to be frustrating.

If you print the shot of the trees, does the banding and loss of black replicate exactly the same in each print?

I know it's tough for you, but I'm hoping that this problem is confined to a few defective printers that could be solved with a replacement printer and not a problem with all the z3100's.

It would be nice if someone from HP could chime in on this problem.
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: mcbroomf on January 24, 2007, 09:04:15 pm
Hi Roscolo,
I had thought about making some more test prints using my original profile but decided not to bother.  For one thing the problem happened in the 2nd 1/2 of the print, and it seemed to me that if this was part of the problem then I would have to make a number of additional prints.  I didn't feel like spending the money to be honest.

If it's limited to a small number of printers then at least I have the solace that bad ones exist in the tech support area here in the US, so they can be a testbed for any fixes that HP design, should I decide to keep the printer.

HP have pushed out the call to Tuesday as we cannot get together given the 6 hr difference and our mutual calendars.  I'm not a pro photogrpaher so my real job has to come 1st ....occasionally  
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: chris anderson on January 24, 2007, 09:32:29 pm
Mike,
I have seen colors go flat before on other inkjet printers, just like your samples show, and it was usally associated with a bad paper profile or a clogger head.
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: dkeyes on January 25, 2007, 01:46:39 am
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Mike,
I have seen colors go flat before on other inkjet printers, just like your samples show, and it was usally associated with a bad paper profile or a clogger head.
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Quote from: chris anderson,Jan 24 2007, 06:32 PM

mike,

I also agree with the clogged head. Could be a bad black or grey cartridge as well. See if the place that sold it to you will give you some new cartidges to try.

Does it have a test print mode to see what colors are printing well and what aren't?

That fact that it changes from print to print makes me think it's not the profile. Those are consistent usually.
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: neil snape on January 25, 2007, 02:50:44 am
I also agree with the clogged head. Could be a bad black or grey cartridge as well. See if the place that sold it to you will give you some new cartidges to try.

Does it have a test print mode to see what colors are printing well and what aren't?

That fact that it changes from print to print makes me think it's not the profile. Those are consistent usually.


It can also be the LUT for the calibration associated to the media.

I could tell you in a second if it's not in the raw calibration , yet if the print of the profiling chart is whacked with lack of black in the shadows (overprinting darks) then it is the cal.

I doubt it is a cartridge and pretend to think it would be the Mid grey or Black print head.

And yes this is a problem that you shouldn't spend YOUR money on fixing.

Good news, I haven't seen this problem yet on any other Z printer yet. Also if it is a print head it would do this. If you could send me the profile for the media or just do your own soft proofing you should be able to see if it is in the profile.
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: Christopher on January 25, 2007, 05:35:14 am
Ok, Now which ink is the printer using if calibrated to Fine Art Paper >250 ? I think it is Matt black, so that the colors are not right is normal. Ok it doesn't explain why the first half of the print is fine :-P, but sometimes there are some really strange things going on.

I also know and understand that you don't want to do any more prints in wasting money. Just the question I asked aboth.

Did you try to change the thickness in the papersetting ? I mean if you profile to Semi or glossy than automaticly the program chosses "normal". Now You can edit these settings and change it to "thick". I just don't understand, why there are no strips in the first one and some in your second one. I mean I REALLY DON'T believe that a little bit more ink lay down will change the shape of a paper like HM FAP. So if the shape is the same between first and second print.. why is there the diffrence in stripes ? I really would wish I had some FAP to test it myself, but as you said. I don't want to waste any money on Paper I will never use again.

EDIT: Was the print from a sheet or roll ?
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: mcbroomf on January 25, 2007, 08:42:43 am
Thanks for the responses guys.  To be honest after that 1st print I didn't focus on the issue I saw on the foliage picture as the zebra stripes were so evident on the 2nd and all subsequent images.  After I printed the 1st picture though, realising that I had chosen the wrong paper type, I simply recalibrated and created a new profile using the Photo Semigloss paper setting.  In both the cal and profile patterna I didn't see anything that suggested either head or ink cartridge problems.  I've also done an alignment check and a paper feed check and those patterns look good as well, with very fine lines showing no signs of drop out.  On the prints and test print sections I've made since the 1st one I've not seen the flat grey issue come back with the correct profile, but I've not reprinted that image.

So I suppose I'm kind of dismissing this issue for the time being until I can see the stripe problem resolved which, on my printer and apparently on the printers in the HP Tech Support area, is pretty pervasive.  By the way to answer Christopher, all of these prints were made on a 24" roll of HM FAP.  The only other print I made was on an Epson Premium Lustre roll (17") to determine if I may have a bad roll of FAP.  I mentioned above that I got slight banding on that print, but if the heads have been hitting the paper I'm not surprised something might now be slightly out fo whack.  I've not done any more alignment/calibration tests since then.  For regular banding issues the troubleshooting guide that is installed with the printer software says to do a head clean, alignment check, paper feed check in that order, so I would start from there if I felt like playing some more.

I don't think I'll be doing any more tests, at least until I speak to HP Engineering next Tuesday.
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: mcbroomf on January 25, 2007, 08:45:53 am
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..... If you could send me the profile for the media or just do your own soft proofing you should be able to see if it is in the profile.
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Neil, I'll do a soft proof on Friday or Saturday (not at home until then) and inspect that area again.  If it's not evident I'll be in touch.

Thanks
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: chris anderson on January 25, 2007, 03:17:30 pm
Mike,
 Is the paper you are having head strike issues with on a 2 or 3 inch core?
              C
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: mcbroomf on January 25, 2007, 04:24:29 pm
Hi Chris,
It's a 3" core.
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: chris anderson on January 25, 2007, 04:30:21 pm
Guys at colorbyte have seen the head strike on 2 inch cored paper but not the 3 inch rolls.
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: ricgal on January 26, 2007, 02:56:53 am
Hi-  I have just bought a 3100 and have been following with interest.  i had majour problems with headstrikes on a 4000 and daVinci fibre gloss which has a very strong curl.  i wound up back rolling the whole roll for a few hours and then rolling it the right way loosley befor printing-  as a short term fix is this feasble?
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: Christopher on January 26, 2007, 04:35:57 am
Quote
Hi-  I have just bought a 3100 and have been following with interest.  i had majour problems with headstrikes on a 4000 and daVinci fibre gloss which has a very strong curl.  i wound up back rolling the whole roll for a few hours and then rolling it the right way loosley befor printing-  as a short term fix is this feasble?
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The Curl is one thing, but not the only problem. IF IT WAS ONLY a CURL PROBLEM, than it would show up in every paper setting and it hasn't show up in his first print...
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: mcbroomf on January 26, 2007, 01:13:22 pm
Christopher,
I'm going to reprofile using a thicker paper setting this weekend as you suggested a few posts above.  HP have also asked me to do this.  

How is this done? (I'm not with the printer right now so I don't have the software to look at).  When creating a new custom paper I don't remember there being a seperate window or tab to change the paper setting to "thick" after selecting Photo Semigloss.
Can you, or anyone else let me know?  

I'll also proof my old profile with Fine Art > 250 to see if the profile is bad as Neil suggested.

Thanks

Mike
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: Christopher on January 26, 2007, 02:12:27 pm
Quote
Christopher,
I'm going to reprofile using a thicker paper setting this weekend as you suggested a few posts above.  HP have also asked me to do this. 

How is this done? (I'm not with the printer right now so I don't have the software to look at).  When creating a new custom paper I don't remember there being a seperate window or tab to change the paper setting to "thick" after selecting Photo Semigloss.
Can you, or anyone else let me know? 

I'll also proof my old profile with Fine Art > 250 to see if the profile is bad as Neil suggested.

Thanks

Mike
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Ok, I'm in Germany right now so I also don't have access to th printer software. But I try to help.

You don't have to recalibrate. In the HP "Color Center" there is a option which is called "Edit Paper" Or something like that. There you can see all the papers and if you select for example a glossy/semi paper than there is the paper thickness option.

I think it should be the third icon in the first row. First there is create ICC profile, second is somethin again with profiles and the third icon is about the paper settings.

I'm looking forward to hear from you whether it helped ot, if there really is a strange problem with some papers and the z3100.
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: mcbroomf on January 26, 2007, 02:43:53 pm
Thanks Christopher, I think this will help, and I'll definitely post my update, although it may be Sunday evening.
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: mcbroomf on January 27, 2007, 12:20:18 pm
I just finished printing two 8x23 test sections on HM FAP.  One small strike area seen.

I found the way to adjust the paper thickness.  Go to the HP Colour Center and select Manage Papers.  You can change the thickness in the Change Printing Properties section.  It seems a little odd that when you create a new custom paper you'd have to do this afterwards then go back to calibrate and profile.

So after adjusting the thickness I recalibrated and reprofiled.  The result is that I only got one small area of head strike stripes, a small section in one column instead of up to 5 somewhat continuous columns as before on the worst print with a heavy dark load.   Also the very noticeable single, not repeating, wide band across the print about 1" from the end was reduced, but not eliminated.  So not too surprising that there is an improvement, given that the change moves the head further away but not enough to compensate.

I found a way to watch the paper buckle that the HP Support Tech described to me.

Shine a light onto the top opening (lid closed).  When the print has run about 2" or so through the heads and is starting to emerge from the spindle with the little pizza wheels just look straight into the printer where the paper emerges along the surface of the print.  If the light is positioned correctly you should see a white reflection against a piece of the printer holding the paper down (I think).  This reflection allows you to see the profile of the paper as it's coming out.  The buckle is VERY evident on the HM FAP I was running.  
I'd be interested in what HM PR 308 looks like if someone is running a 24" roll and cares to look.  On my Epson 4000 it's my favorite paper and I had planned to use it on this printer as well.  I know some people have mentioned that it's printing OK.

I was going to proof the foliage print with the profile I made using the Thick Fine Art (>250 g/m2) setting I used as Neil suggested, but I goofed.  When I got home this morning I decided to start by cleaning up all the custom profiles I made and don't use before reprofiling the HM FAP and I forgot I needed that old profile.  I did proof using the new profile on that print and although there are some minor changes the greys and tree trunks look OK.

I also ran into the landscape/portrait problem that Andre mentioned.  My test prints had been 8x23 or so portions cropped horizontally from portrait images.  I had made a 9x24 custom paper size and had no issues printing them.  I decided to make a new test image and cropped an 8x23 section from a new image.  This one was a landscape image so I was cropping vertically.  To print I used the same custom 9x24 setup, but switched to landscape mode.  The paper setup image looked fine and placed the image correctly, but when it started to print it was printing it as a portrait, ie only 8" wide.  I cancelled the job in the windows print queue and it carried on printing.  Then I cancelled it on the printer using the X button.  It immediately spat out the paper and cut it off, but the Cancelling Print .....tif message never cleared and the next test print I sent it never started.  I had to power cycle it to clear.  Worked OK afterwards though.

That's all folks.  I hope to be talking to HP on Tuesday morning.
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: Christopher on January 27, 2007, 12:52:12 pm
Ok thanks for the information. As ones said I don't have a 24 roll, but the 13in roll of HM Photo Rag is working great. I will get a larger roll this week and then I will certainly test it.
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: mcbroomf on January 30, 2007, 02:51:09 pm
Here are a couple of photos I took yesterday showing the paper buckle as it starts to emerge from the rollers.  Same conditions as before, 24" HM FAP.

[attachment=1703:attachment][attachment=1704:attachment]
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: chris anderson on January 31, 2007, 04:59:25 pm
any word from the big wigs at HP??
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: mcbroomf on January 31, 2007, 05:17:57 pm
Oh yes.  I had a 30 minute conference call with several folks at HP in Barcelona on Tuesday.  I had also worked with one of the people in their Customer Assurance group for a day or so using email.  She had asked me to check and reset a couple of parameters, run a head clean and a diagnostic pattern check, then try a print using a new profile and test print created off the Proofing Gloss Paper type which runs at a high head setting.

On the diagnostic pattern I see banding on the matt black patch.  As I’ve not run any matt paper this shouldn’t have affected anything I've done, but it will need to be cured at some point if the printer stays.  After resetting the papers and making the new profile I ran the same test print I'd been using before, a dark reflection off the ocean of a pre-dawn sky.  R/G/B = 40/50/70 if I remember right.

I didn't see any head strikes this time, although the paper buckled pretty badly, in fact the pics I posted above came from this test.  I though it was a little less buckle than I had seen before, but it easy to say that and I didn't take any photos last time.  The image looked flatter though (pun intended, ie less contrast).  I did try my old ICC profile customer paper setup for HM FAP and also didn't see a head strike this time.  I did see the wide band I've always seen along the bottom of the print, 1/4" wide about 1/2" from the bend of the print.  In one of the images I posted with the close up of the zebra stripe you can see it cutting through the stripe column.

I had also been asked about the humidity here, so I bought a temp/humidity gauge, a cheap analog one for the garden.  It was at 40% on Monday night when I tried the tests, but it could have been lower when I started the machine up as we had some frigid air in Mass at that time.  Someone said that HM have a tight spec for their papers, 40-60, but the PDF got HM FAP says 35-65.

The discussion on Tuesday morning was interesting, a lot of it within the HP attendees, including; architect, customer assurance, sales, colour engineering and others I believe.  I captured the following, pretty much all of which revolved around getting the right amount of ink on the paper to prevent this, not about re-engineering it to keep the paper flat; calibration problem with the paper causing too much ink to be deposited, ink vs GE ratios, humidity...there might have been one or 2 other, I don't have my notes, but I think those were the main ones I picked up.  When I mentioned that the test print I ran using the Proof gloss paper setting was flat they said this was to be expected as it uses less ink.  It was clear that this was just a test they were asking me to run, not any kind of a solution.

One of the architects will be in the US next week and is planning to visit on Monday.  I may try some HM PR 308 prints over the weekend given the positive results people have reported.  I'd like to see how much it buckles, and I have a ton of Epson 4000 prints for comparison, but I'll have to fix the MK banding first.  I also plan to startup a humidifier I have and run it to get the humity up to 50% on at leas tone day and try the HM FAP again.
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: kers on February 01, 2007, 04:16:45 pm
Quote
ONow I tried some printing on Innova F-Type Gloss ( The glossy version ). I calibrated it and profiles it. Now I have some very strange strips on them. Even at A4 and on 13*19. It goes down all the way, but is only visible against the light. ( So it was kind of hard to photogrpah) They go from top to bottom. They run in print direction. So in a portrait picture from top to bottom. They are across the hole print. They are not always the same strength. They nearly look like roller marks. But that's strange ... I don't have anything like that on my Epson Glossy or on my HM Photo Rag prints..
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=97193\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I also have these roller marks on several other third party Glossy papers. So only on the Glossy papers .
Maybe it has to do with the paper not being dry quick enough- and then being very sensitive to be touched by the rollers. I appears to me that for the glossy papers the machine is very sensitive towards the type of paper- also in combination with the GE - The innova does not perform at all- The besy glossy papers that I have seen are the HP Premium INSTANT-DRY Photo Gloss and satin paper GE ON. - especially the satin performs very well. They also have the widest gamut in the dark areas. On the matte papers it is the Hahnemule smooth fineart 310gr that is very beautiful especially black and white.
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: Christopher on February 01, 2007, 05:09:35 pm
Quote
I also have these roller marks on several other third party Glossy papers. So only on the Glossy papers .
Maybe it has to do with the paper not being dry quick enough- and then being very sensitive to be touched by the rollers. I appears to me that for the glossy papers the machine is very sensitive towards the type of paper- also in combination with the GE - The innova does not perform at all- The besy glossy papers that I have seen are the HP Premium INSTANT-DRY Photo Gloss and satin paper GE ON. - especially the satin performs very well. They also have the widest gamut in the dark areas. On the matte papers it is the Hahnemule smooth fineart 310gr that is very beautiful especially black and white.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=98753\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes I noticed them on a few diffrent paper types, but not always. I have to test further more. But It often helps already changeing the paper thicknes. ( In the menu )
I'm gone for the weekend, but I will do some more tests next week. ( Epson, Ilford, and some other glossy papers)
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: mcbroomf on February 05, 2007, 01:33:30 pm
HP left a couple of hours ago.  The architect who had planned to come had to cancel his visit and stay in Spain at the last minute, but one of the Service guys came up from Atlanta.

He brought 2 humidity gauges with him and we compared them to the one I had bought last week.  He had a calibrated attachment to a DVM, a cheap digital that he had bought in Lowes, and I had my cheap analog from Home Depot.  Although they varied a little during the 3 hours he was here they read respectively 19%, 25% and 42%....the HM FAP has a 35-65% range, so assuming his calibrated system was on the mark my room is currently running way too low.  The temp is 66F, but it's only 20F outside today.  

As well as the head strikes I have been seeing banding that I have not been able to eliminate on the matt black which shows up on both of the lustre papers I've tried.  Cleaning hadn't eliminate it, but only 1 or 2 of the nozzles were blocked (out of 1024).

He checked the head height to start with (it was set up properly) then ran a head clean and the diagnostic test print.  The matt black still had banding.  Did the same but just for the MK/Red head, same result.  We switched to the ID High Gloss test roll and tried a test print and it looked fine (no MK used), then cleaned the head with a wet, then dry coffee filter.  This eliminated the banding on the diagnostic print.  Later when we switched back to HM FAP the banding had gone.

I had noticed that there was a distinct pause during printing (from USB) and had moved from a long USB/desktop to the supplied USB/laptop, and from 16bit to 8 bit images, but I always seemed to get the same pauses.  I demonstrated this and we eventually fixed it by switching to a different mode in the print (Print directly to Printer.....under the Advanced tab).  The printer now runs with no pauses, although this was not contributing to any issues (just made for longer print times).  I'm not set up for a network connection, but I do plan to switch as using the mode above ties up Photoshop for the duration of the print.

So we switched over to HM FAP, knowing that the humidity is currently very low.  With the paper setting at High we got no head strikes but could easily see the buckle.  The paper setting used for this profile was Photo Peal/Satin which normally starts up as normal paper thickness, so we switched to normal and this time did get head strikes, about the same that I'd seen before.  No banding though, and a check of the diagnostic print afterwards verified that the heads are OK.

I have a new roll of HP Pro Satin that I'm going to start to try, and now that MK is OK I'll try my 24" roll of HM PR 308.  I think HM FAP is a dead end until I get the humidity under control.  And even then I'm not sure, I see little dull spots on the paper.  Might also be a humidity thing,  It doesn't look like flaking.

A couple of useful things I picked up...

To clean the print head (last resort if you have banding and the auto clean routine is not working).  Slightly wet a coffee filter.  Dab the print head up/down on the filter twice, 2 different spots, then once on a dry spot.  Do not slide over the head like you do with the swabs supplied with the heads.  This technique was also mentioned by the tech support guys I spoke to over the phone.

How to read the diagnostics image.  Each head has 1024 nozzles and each of them are printed on the image.  You can easily see when one is missing.  Up to 100 can be missing as long as they are not clustered in a line, so don't worry about 1 or 2. (Personally I'd start to worry if I saw 10 or so missing, but that's the message).

The Epson's have a tank that you can slide out and replace for waste ink.  I've replaced mine once (Epson 4k) in 3 years.  The HP has something similar, but it is part of a larger mechanism that is replaced as a whole unit and is not user replaceable.  Bad news, but it should last 2 years if the printer is being used daily with moderate use (I think he said ~5 prints, didn't mention the size).

Unfortunately I'm going to be away for 11 or 12 days so I won't have a chance to test out more papers and play with humidity (if I can force it higher in the room).  I'll be leaving it on and will run a diagnostic print when I get back to see if all is well before working with new papers.

Thanks to HP and particularly JJ for excellent support.
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: Tom.D.Arch on February 06, 2007, 01:18:54 am
It may be obvious to a lot of people reading this thread, but i thought I'd point out an issue.  The paper is fairly thick and stored as a tight roll.  Over time, the paper will 'equalize' its humidity to the surroundings - if that roll has been in relatively dry air for weeks, it will take quite a while for it to adjust to the increased humidity that a humidifier will offer.  You may get odd results at the transition from where the outside layer of the roll has been exposed to air and from the edges of the roll inwards.

Anyway, thanks for both serving as a guinea pig and for reporting on your run through the lab maze!
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: kers on February 06, 2007, 11:17:59 am
I am having problems printing large photo's from photoshop CS2 withh teh z3100 connected over the ethernet.  I am using Mac OSX 10.4.8
when the file is over 200MB - photoshop says it can't print because of a program error-
I think the problem is related tot CS2...

does anybody experience the same problem or has a solution?

thanks in advance!  
Pieter Kers
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: marty m on February 07, 2007, 10:49:42 am
I posted a number of questions in the other thread on "new user" observations, including questions on some of the reports of problems in this thread.

But rather than repeat those questions here, I posted only once in the other thread.

Any response to any of my questions would be *greatly* appreciated!
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: Christopher on February 07, 2007, 05:22:13 pm
Is there any way ro buy some of the swabs supplied with the heads extra from HP ? or are there other companies who make something similiar.

I mean I will try the coffee trick, but I can't believe that HP doesn't sell them...
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: mcbroomf on February 07, 2007, 07:40:39 pm
I looked all over their website when I first had the problem and couldn't find the swabs.  The service guy who visited me told me until now they have always been told that the heads should never be touched (including during install...this is the 1st time that the swab wipe has been part of the install).  In the field however they had figured out the coffee filter trick on other printers.  He specifically said that they should not be wiped though, just an up/down dab.

Lucky I still had some coffee filters, I switched to expresso a few years ago ....  
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: mcbroomf on February 07, 2007, 07:45:52 pm
Quote
It may be obvious to a lot of people reading this thread, but i thought I'd point out an issue.  The paper is fairly thick and stored as a tight roll.  Over time, the paper will 'equalize' its humidity to the surroundings - if that roll has been in relatively dry air for weeks, it will take quite a while for it to adjust to the increased humidity that a humidifier will offer.  You may get odd results at the transition from where the outside layer of the roll has been exposed to air and from the edges of the roll inwards.

Anyway, thanks for both serving as a guinea pig and for reporting on your run through the lab maze!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99408\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Tom, thanks...I very much hope that I'm through it (the maze) now.

The service guy who visited recommended that a roll of paper be stored in the plastic bag it ships in when not in use, even over night.  I suppose this makes sense if you know the humidity is changing and heading out of spec, but otherwise I don't know, I think there are too many other changes; the paper curl getting worse towards the end of the roll, the change as you say in the middle, especially if you are going through a roll fast.
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: LUKA on February 09, 2007, 04:09:20 am
Quote
Chris, I don't know if the problem appears on smaller prints, I only have 17 and 24" rolls.

Andre, for the same reason I can't print on any cut paper, but yesterday on 17 Epson Premium Lustre I had regular banding but not the zebra stripes.

I have just tried a print with the supplied HP USB cable from my laptop and I got one faint mark, so this does not seem to be the solution.  The fact that it's only one instead of 5 or 6 is not much of a surprise as yesterday I was getting only 2 columns on some tests.  I'm printing another as I type.

I took a photo of an area from one of yesterday's just to show how similar it is to your problem Andre.  The interesting thing here is that in the dark area between the top and bottom sections you can see that there is colour amid the faint scuffs, so I'm confident now with your and Neils's comments that it's a head strike.

Oh well, the next test came off and it's got 2 very obvious columns.

Andre, thanks for the warning about the firmaware update.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=97071\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hello:
Why Z3100 that HP send to testings go so fine and doesnt from customers (so many problems)?
May be HP calibrate this printers for testings proof. I dont Know
When I buy a car I dont testing tires or engine, only get inside and drive.
Put all the machines together and back to HP and get your money back.
Together it is more powerfull that one by one
I was thinking buy Z3100 but I dont. HP can put some ketchup and moustard and eat it.
Good luck
Regards from Spain  
Luka
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: Christopher on February 09, 2007, 05:52:06 am
Quote
Hello:
Why Z3100 that HP send to testings go so fine and doesnt from customers (so many problems)?
May be HP calibrate this printers for testings proof. I dont Know
When I buy a car I dont testing tires or engine, only get inside and drive.
Put all the machines together and back to HP and get your money back.
Together it is more powerfull that one by one
I was thinking buy Z3100 but I dont. HP can put some ketchup and moustard and eat it.
Good luck
Regards from Spain  
Luka
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99994\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yout statement has one problem. You use a FORUM as to look how many problems are there. People who don't have any problems normaly don't post at all. It is the same with every product. Look at some Canon or Nikon forum.... YOu could thing both companies couldn't make one single good camera, but they do.

For me and I think a lot of other people the printer works fantastic and we wouldn't switch to the old Epsons or the bulky Canons... but everyone should do what he wants. Good look.
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: madmanchan on February 09, 2007, 06:59:54 am
Yeah I agree here. Should try and visit a car forum. You'd think that all new model cars are broken!
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: Bill Koenig on February 09, 2007, 10:52:59 am
Quote
Yout statement has one problem. You use a FORUM as to look how many problems are there. People who don't have any problems normaly don't post at all. It is the same with every product. Look at some Canon or Nikon forum.... YOu could thing both companies couldn't make one single good camera, but they do.

For me and I think a lot of other people the printer works fantastic and we wouldn't switch to the old Epsons or the bulky Canons... but everyone should do what he wants. Good look.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99998\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hmmm, maybe thats the reason why there hasn't been all that much posted about the new Epson 3800.  
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: andyheb on February 09, 2007, 02:10:09 pm
Quote
He brought 2 humidity gauges with him and we compared them to the one I had bought last week.  He had a calibrated attachment to a DVM, a cheap digital that he had bought in Lowes, and I had my cheap analog from Home Depot.  Although they varied a little during the 3 hours he was here they read respectively 19%, 25% and 42%....the HM FAP has a 35-65% range, so assuming his calibrated system was on the mark my room is currently running way too low.  The temp is 66F, but it's only 20F outside today.

Mike, if you're looking for a good humidifier, I can recommend these:
http://www.venta-airwasher.com/ (http://www.venta-airwasher.com/)

One advantage of those is that the air can't get too humid.

Andy
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: LUKA on February 09, 2007, 02:35:20 pm
Quote
Yout statement has one problem. You use a FORUM as to look how many problems are there. People who don't have any problems normaly don't post at all. It is the same with every product. Look at some Canon or Nikon forum.... YOu could thing both companies couldn't make one single good camera, but they do.

For me and I think a lot of other people the printer works fantastic and we wouldn't switch to the old Epsons or the bulky Canons... but everyone should do what he wants. Good look.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99998\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

When so many people have the SAME mechanic/physical problem, it is a real defect and no a forum question or no correct software use, I think. Many those people had other large printers before. I will searching for more info about this machine, so I need one (HP, Epson...)
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: mcbroomf on February 09, 2007, 02:52:55 pm
Thanks Andy, I may well go for one of these.  The small one should fit the bill. I may eventually get a humidifier added to my heating as I have forced hot air.  

How does this unit deal with the deposits one usually sees from evaporation units, or does it work in such a way that this is not a problem?

....

Just a comment on my opinion of the z3100 due to the last few posts.

I agree with several posts that forums tend to get used for discussion of problems with gear.  I also agree that this doesn't necessarily mean that the gear of the company is no good.  The great advantage of internet forums of course is the ability to share knowledge, good and bad, and quickly highlight it to the manufacturer who can then decide on an action (or inaction).

In my particular case I was very disappointed (of course) that my printer didn't work out of the box like many other new users, however HP responded splendidly to my problems.  In fact I would say that they took a particular interest as they realized that the incompatibility I was reporting with HM FAP was in their best interest to fix.  While helping me they identified the problem I had in my own home (20% humidity or less), and fixed the problem with my MK head that was most likely caused due to the head strikes (they are also sending me a spare head in case the one I had dies prematurely, and they are also going to work on a new custom profile for HM FAP that I should be able to try even with the low humidity).

I have no particular allegiance with HP, in fact all of my printers to date have been Epson (with practically no head clog issues), but who knows what I will buy next, most probably the one that in my opinion (and others) at the time offers the best combination/balance of; cost, cost of ownership, image quality and perhaps flexibility ......  HP/Canon/Epson, who knows.  But my current experience with HP will not affect that decision (assuming it is good from now and is as good or better reliability wise).

Enough rambling.  I'm away until next Friday but I hope to be printing up a storm when I get back....otherwise you'll be hearing from me again ...   and maybe you will in any case so that I can report success!
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: andyheb on February 09, 2007, 03:27:49 pm
Quote
How does this unit deal with the deposits one usually sees from evaporation units, or does it work in such a way that this is not a problem?

I can't tell you now for shure since I bought mine today after reading about your paper problems with dry air ;-)

But cause this unit has no heating, it should not be such a problem.
Besides this, you have to add a fluid to the water, it's the "Venta Water Treatment Additive" which will also help to prevent deposits.

Quote from their FAQ at
http://www.venta-airwasher.com/html/customer_service.html (http://www.venta-airwasher.com/html/customer_service.html)
-------------------------
Is it necessary to use the Venta Water Treatment Additive?
Yes. The Water Treatment Additive keeps the mineral deposits from becoming hard and difficult to remove – any sediment can be easily rinsed out. In addition, the Water Treatment Additive improves the efficiency of the unit by making the water sheet on the disk stacks, instead of "beading up" – allowing for maximum use of every square inch of the disk stacks. The Water Treatment Additive also prevents odors.
-------------------------

I'd like to hear about your experiences with the Z3100 and the HM-FAP when you are back.

Andy
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: marty m on February 10, 2007, 01:51:20 pm
I posted additional information on the 3100, as well as two questions in the thread on first new user report.  I would greatly appreciate any responses.

Thanks very much!
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: mcbroomf on March 19, 2007, 11:34:15 am
After the last posts in this string I stopped using HM FAP and switched to HP Pro Satin as the FAP could give me head stikes even in the high printing position.  I also bought a humidifier, the one Andy suggested, and could get the humidity up to ~30% when the baseline was ~20%, better but still a little out of spec for the paper.  In any case the HP Pro Satin is so good that I had no reason to go back to FAP although I reasoned that I would some time in spring when humidity hit 40% or more.

Recently however as I mentioned in one of the gamut posts, HP sent me a custom paper file for HM FAP.  It's an OMS file that is uploaded to the printer and it included an ICC profile.  I installed it last week after installing the new firmware and the new suite of profiles and this weekend I thought I'd give it a try.  Humidity was 35%.  In spec for this paper but at the low end.

After calibration I printed 3 images, one from Antelope Canyon, a new one taken over the weekend, and a black and white taken many years ago.  All on 24" wide roll paper.

While I didn't print any images with strong, pure reds the colour that I was getting looked excellent.  The antelope canyon print looked as good on FAP as the copy I made on Pro Satin and it has deep purples and orange colours.  The new image matched my screen well.  Neither showed an out of gamut areas and proofed very well.  However while printing I could see that the paper was still bucking significantly, and while the 1st 2 prints came out OK, the 3rd print, the b&w, had a single 6-7" long head strike pattern close to the centre of the print.

So...back to Pro Satin.

Cheers,

Mike
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: neil snape on March 19, 2007, 12:21:11 pm
It must be that the media is cockling after the ink load is on the paper. When it loads it isn't buckled or wavey is it?
I wonder if the advanced set up of speed could help.
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: mcbroomf on March 19, 2007, 12:51:59 pm
Hi Neil,
Yes, it's quite flat coming through the feeder to the heads, it gets buckled due to the ink load I'm sure.  I loaded a couple of photos taken looking through the front of the machine a few pages back.  You can see the effect with some backlighting I set up.  This is the same problem, I just hoped that the new pofile would fix it.  When I had a conference call with HP in Barcelona at the time this was 1st discussed they talked (within themselves) about adjusting ink to GE mix (I print in Econo mode on FAP).  I've been able to create the zebra stripes in both normal and high head mode (although less in high mode), and I'm confident that this profile has the heads in high mode.  My printer was checked by a service technician so that we know it is in proper adjustment for head height.  
Incidentally HP told me that HP Pro Satin prints in normal mode.  It prints perfectly flat looking through the front.

Mike
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: neil snape on March 19, 2007, 01:06:16 pm
Okay thanks. It's as I thought. When I tested FAP , I thought there to be a gelatinous layer as the inks are coalescing if printed too fast. The coating then is letting water go past the white layer and making the actual backing buckle. The head height will help but there will be a limit.
Anyway, I really like th Pro Satin. I liked it from the moment I say it. It is great and works very well too.
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: dkeyes on March 20, 2007, 03:42:16 am
Quote
Hi Neil,
Yes, it's quite flat coming through the feeder to the heads, it gets buckled due to the ink load I'm sure.  I loaded a couple of photos taken looking through the front of the machine a few pages back.  You can see the effect with some backlighting I set up.  This is the same problem, I just hoped that the new pofile would fix it.  When I had a conference call with HP in Barcelona at the time this was 1st discussed they talked (within themselves) about adjusting ink to GE mix (I print in Econo mode on FAP).  I've been able to create the zebra stripes in both normal and high head mode (although less in high mode), and I'm confident that this profile has the heads in high mode.  My printer was checked by a service technician so that we know it is in proper adjustment for head height. 
Incidentally HP told me that HP Pro Satin prints in normal mode.  It prints perfectly flat looking through the front.

Mike
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=107506\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
As I mentioned to Mike offline,
I've had great success with the new profile that Mike sent me and no buckling. Reds seem on target, bottom third of shadows (to black) are darker but still have separation.
I live in Seattle and print in my basement studio. Humidity is a constant 45-50% which seems ideal, so far, for printing on any paper. Printing the second run of gloss only (after drying a day) also looked great. Blackest blacks I've seen on FAP, but made the paper much more glossy.
- Doug
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: mcbroomf on March 20, 2007, 08:44:21 am
Hi Doug,
Hmmm .... there's a thought.  Move to Seattle....or move to my basement  

Mike
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: Christopher on March 23, 2007, 06:39:30 pm
Ok, after some testing, with some beta paper settings from HP gives me the conclusion, that HM Photo Rag is unusable with this printer... Just a peak of softproof. The print looks pretty much as bad as the proof. Both printres (R2400, and Z3100) were profiled with 3000 patches and an i1 system.

Can anyone send me a good profile of the HP Smoth fine art paper ? I really want to know if it is so much better as many say.

It would be really helpful.

email: ch@dp3.cc

P.S. I don't think after that statement, that I have to say which printer is on which side...

[attachment=2159:attachment]
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: chris anderson on March 23, 2007, 09:03:06 pm
have you actually tried printing it???
Title: 1st print problems with z3100
Post by: Christopher on March 24, 2007, 02:17:13 am
Yes I tried printing it and it looks awufl compared to the R2400, yes a little better than the softproof bur nearly as bad. Just kind of sad.