Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: david o on January 06, 2007, 11:52:16 am
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the question is in the title...
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xx
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A shame really as I do think that phase, or any other db makes for that matter, could stick their sensors and all their digital back know-how into a one piece camera body..similar to the mamiya zd or any other lens mount..mamiya /bronica / pentax / contax etc..(as kodak did with nikon and canon mount dslrs) and take a good chunk out of the pro dslr market..i.e. all those users who switched from medium format film to dslr..and so are used to the slightly slower workings of such a camera.
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There is no chance of this happening. And I don't think it's a good idea in any case. They would be much better off using an existing camera platform. It would cost far too much to develop a whole new camera, a set of lenses, viewfinders, etc, and you have no 'ready-made' customers who already have an investment in the system. Very hard to get off the ground.
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xx
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There is no chance of this happening. And I don't think it's a good idea in any case. They would be much better off using an existing camera platform. It would cost far too much to develop a whole new camera, a set of lenses, viewfinders, etc, and you have no 'ready-made' customers who already have an investment in the system. Very hard to get off the ground.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=94400\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I thought about that, using an existing system, like leaf with Sinar... or built their own body, using existing lens, as far as I know, hasselblad doesn't manufactured their own.
That was just an idea.
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There is no chance of this happening. And I don't think it's a good idea in any case. They would be much better off using an existing camera platform. It would cost far too much to develop a whole new camera, a set of lenses, viewfinders, etc, and you have no 'ready-made' customers who already have an investment in the system. Very hard to get off the ground.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=94400\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I don't think it matters. How many exisiting Rollei users does the HY6 play to . . . about 12.?
Hasselblad had no issues selling a brand new camera with a brand new mount and if done properly probably no one would either.
JR
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I don't think it matters. How many exisiting Rollei users does the HY6 play to . . . about 12.?
There's no need for that attitude. I expect the correct number is in the thousands or tens of thousands. Even SLX lenses from 1976 can be used on the Hy6.
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There's no need for that attitude. I expect the correct number is in the thousands or tens of thousands. Even SLX lenses from 1976 can be used on the Hy6.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=94423\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I believe the era where you bought one camera or camera system for a decade are over.
Digital has changed the landscape and as the backs and cameras continue to leapfrog each other so will the platforms.
Our film is now digital and the days of a new film making an older camera modern are over.
2 years ago the H-1 was the hot ticket, next year maybe the HY6, but for any camera company to rely on a fixed install base of lens owners does not sound like the current business model for digital.
Now in regards to the Rollei, maybe it's big in europe but in my career I have only known one working photographer that regularly used a 6008 and never used it when he transitioned to digital.
I doubt seriously if the HY6 sales will have much to do with the current Rollei owners but regardless if the HY6 is good and stands alone on it's own merits it will be a success.
JR
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Rollei are still making cameras, which is quite an achievement for any medium format manufacturer these days.
Somebody must be buying them and and if the upcoming Hy6 is going to take Phase backs as well as Leaf and Sinar there will be a lot more customers too...
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it was discussed till the end and longer that the hy6 will communicate exclusive with sinar and with leaf backs.
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Rehnniar,
Have you seen what Torben Eskerod says earlier on in this thread?
He was informed (by a rep) that Phase are involved in the Hy6 project - not with Phase-branded Hy6s but with ensuring that Phase backs are compatible.
I hope it's true and I don't even use Phase.
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There is no chance of this happening. And I don't think it's a good idea in any case. They would be much better off using an existing camera platform. It would cost far too much to develop a whole new camera, a set of lenses, viewfinders, etc, and you have no 'ready-made' customers who already have an investment in the system. Very hard to get off the ground.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=94400\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I agree, (previously) existing manufacturers already up and running couldn't maintain profitability. Its hard to imagine a DB manufacturer producing something acceptable to today's even more demanding marketplace and also meet the objective of pricing it to be a sales lure for their DB. The Mamiya connection seems logical, as does choice of platform for the users.
David
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Rollei are still making cameras, which is quite an achievement for any medium format manufacturer these days.
Somebody must be buying them and and if the upcoming Hy6 is going to take Phase backs as well as Leaf and Sinar there will be a lot more customers too...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=94481\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Does Rollei really make cameras, or are they just clearing exisiting stock? I 've never heard a definative answer on this?
Definative answers are hard to find in the digital world. Is Hasselblad really locking off the H series cameras to everyone but themselves? Obviouisly some of the manufacturers think so, hence the sing on with the HY6, I have yet to see a statement that say exactly what camera will only work with which back.
As far as Rollei, or F+H or anyone having success with a new camera, I believe it will depend on the quality of the camera, not the installed user base that may own a series of lenses.
Because of all of this, I think this is why the Contax continues to be attractive. The price is good, but more importantly it's not a moving target like the other cameras. The firmware is locked and if you have an issue with your Phase, Leaf, or Sinar back on a Contax, you can put it at the back makers door rather than the camera makers.
It's a shame the Contax didin't continue, but in a lot of ways it's almost a blessing because today it will work the same as it wil tomorrow.
Personally, without ever seeing or using one the HY6 should be a success, but ONLY if it is an exceptional camera that comes out of the gate glitch free and it is widely available.
Don't underestimate the availability part of this, because if you have to wait weeks or months, most working professionals will go another route.
JR
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I'm liking my mamiya 645afd, sharp lenses, no problems or error messages, very little mirror slap. Cheap as chips too. I don't see why everyone doesn't use them.
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xx
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Carl,
I am sure I got it right - but I will double check with the Phase rep. (from the Phase factory here in Denmark) and get back with a precise answer.
Torben
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=94589\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I would not for a second rely on anything you hear from any rep, whether Phase, Leaf or Sinar, about Phase's role, if any, with the Hy6. The only people who know are those that have read the fine print in the supply/development contract between F&H and Sinar and the one between F&H and Leaf. You may find it reprehensible, but those agreements may give Sinar and Leaf exclusive rights to the Hy6. Wait till Phase and F&H make a formal announcement. Right now, the silence is deafening.
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It's more likely a limited time exclusive arrangement, like Sinar had with Kodak for the 22mp chip. Rollei wouldn't want to lock itself out completely, not with the huge installed base of Phase users.
Or, another way to look at it: Leaf is owned by Kodak, but Phase is the largest consumer of Kodak chips. Leaf has convinced Kodak that it would be better to keep everything inhouse, and lock out Phase in future. Sinar is currently a small player, but has an excellent relationship with Kodak, and was brought in to give the deal the "open platform" flavor.
Which scenario is right? Any industrial spies around?
Cheers,
Kumar
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i think all was answered by yaya and thierry in the previous long tread about the HY6.
they said the camera is under exclusive control of jenoptik and licensed to sinar and leaf not to third parties. if this is time limited we will see..... but two years or five or whatever time limit is a long time in digital age. ....
in any case i enjoy my new (old) contax also and will see what will bring the future.
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It's more likely a limited time exclusive arrangement, like Sinar had with Kodak for the 22mp chip. Rollei wouldn't want to lock itself out completely, not with the huge installed base of Phase users.
Or, another way to look at it: Leaf is owned by Kodak, but Phase is the largest consumer of Kodak chips. Leaf has convinced Kodak that it would be better to keep everything inhouse, and lock out Phase in future. Sinar is currently a small player, but has an excellent relationship with Kodak, and was brought in to give the deal the "open platform" flavor.
Which scenario is right? Any industrial spies around?
Cheers,
Kumar
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=94637\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Isn't the Rollei brand owned by F&H? If so, I would think they would be perfectly happy to sell out their entire production to Sinar and Leaf, particularly if (i) Sinar and Leaf paid for all or a major part of the tooling costs for the Hy6 and (ii) F&H/Rollei could stay out of the marketing risks associated with distributing an actual camera, something they have a very poor track record at.
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xx
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There is no chance of this happening. ... It would cost far too much to develop a whole new camera, a set of lenses ...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=94400\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I have to agree (with the bits I deleted too).
A few years ago some camera makers developed complete new lens systems for the sake of auto-focus and other modernizations: Fuji, Mamiya, and Pentax in medium format, Olympus in 4/3 format. (Not Hasselblad by the way, since the H system and in particular its lenses are primarily Fuji products.)
But now there are a number of up-to-date medium format AF lens systems around, and it probably makes no sense for anyone to create yet another new system in what is a rather small market. It barely makes sense to me for Rollei to try, which it must: Rollei currently has only about one third of an AF lens system, compared to the variety offered by the other 645 AF systems.
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When I made the comment a few days ago about a camera made by one of the db manufacturers I did of course mean with existing lenses..so working with pentax/hoya, mamiya, contax zeiss lenses if they were allolwed, etc to make a great body to go with the existing lenses, both autofocus and manual still seems like a good idea to me.
As example mamiya spent so much time working on the sensor for the zd they got a bit left behind whereas camera maker plus phase one, or leaf etc...
we know zeiss make lenses for others cameras..nikon, hasselblad of old, contax, etc..who would not be interested in say a phase made body built around the sensor, not th eother way round and with (new) zeiss lenses?
marc
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Rollei currently has only about one third of an AF lens system, compared to the variety offered by the other 645 AF systems.
The Rollei is a 6x6 system, not 645, and it is the only 6x6 AF system, afaik.
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The Rollei is a 6x6 system, not 645, and it is the only 6x6 AF system, afaik.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=95056\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I know that Rollei's lenses, viewfinders and such are designed for 6x6, so perhaps I should have referred to "the other auto-focus medium format systems" with their far more extensive AF lens systems.
As far as digital is concerned though, the Rollei system is far from 6x6 (56x56mm); it is 37x49mm or smaller, depending on which of the available sensors it is used with. I am talking about facts here, not speculation about sensors larger than 645 format ever being offered at less that "military contract" prices.
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I know that Rollei's lenses, viewfinders and such are designed for 6x6, so perhaps I should have referred to "the other auto-focus medium format systems" with their far more extensive AF lens systems.
As far as digital is concerned though, the Rollei system is far from 6x6 (56x56mm); it is 37x49mm or smaller, depending on which of the available sensors it is used with. I am talking about facts here, not speculation about sensors larger than 645 format ever being offered at less that "military contract" prices.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=95103\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Robert White's UK web site lists 4 AF prime lenses for the Rollei 6008: 50, 80, 150 and 180. Is that the AF lens lineup for the Hy6?
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Robert White's UK web site lists 4 AF prime lenses for the Rollei 6008: 50, 80, 150 and 180. Is that the AF lens lineup for the Hy6?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=95112\")
These lenses will be available at the release:
AFD Xenotar 2.8/80 PQS
AFD Super-Angulon 2.8/50 HFT PQS
AFD Tele-Xenar 4/150 HFT-PQS
AFD Tele-Xenar 2.8/180 PQ
AFD Variogon 4.6/60-140 PQS
AFD 35mm will follow shortly after and then a few more a bit later.
All of these carry new glass design, new coating etc. Optimised for use with hi-res sensors.
More info can be found on [a href=\"http://www.leaf-photography.com/pages/products/leafafi.aspx]Leaf's Website[/url]
Yair
[span style=\'font-size:7pt;line-height:100%\']Yair Shahar | Regional Manager | Leaf EMEA |
mob: +44 77 8992 8199 | yair.shahar@kodak.com | www.leaf-photography.com
Leaf, part of Kodak's Graphic Communications Group
[/span]
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These lenses will be available at the release:
AFD Xenotar 2.8/80 PQS
AFD Super-Angulon 2.8/50 HFT PQS
AFD Tele-Xenar 4/150 HFT-PQS
AFD Tele-Xenar 2.8/180 PQ
AFD Variogon 4.6/60-140 PQS
AFD 35mm will follow shortly after and then a few more a bit later.
All of these carry new glass design, new coating etc. Optimised for use with hi-res sensors.
More info can be found on Leaf's Website (http://www.leaf-photography.com/pages/products/leafafi.aspx)
Yair
[span style=\'font-size:7pt;line-height:100%\']Yair Shahar | Regional Manager | Leaf EMEA |
mob: +44 77 8992 8199 | yair.shahar@kodak.com | www.leaf-photography.com
Leaf, part of Kodak's Graphic Communications Group
[/span]
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=95118\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yair,
does Leaf have a price policy for the Leaf Hy6 with the standard lens incl. a camera mount update for existing Leaf db owners? Also, when will Leaf be taking orders, how many units will they have to sell and when will they be available?
Also, have you seen, held, played and worked with one of the Leaf Hy6's? If so, and if you can actually say anything without getting in deep ...., what's your opinion on handling, weight, auto focus, etc.
Thanks, Kipling
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These lenses will be available at the release:
AFD Xenotar 2.8/80 PQS
AFD Super-Angulon 2.8/50 HFT PQS
AFD Tele-Xenar 4/150 HFT-PQS
AFD Tele-Xenar 2.8/180 PQ
AFD Variogon 4.6/60-140 PQS
AFD 35mm will follow shortly after and then a few more a bit later.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=95118\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Those five lenses seem to be basically the current Rollei AF lenses, albeit with a "D" added to the names, so to be fair Rollei is up to about half of what other AF MF lens systems offer. (Hasselblad/Fuji had to come from behind too.)
Is there any source for information about future lenses, such as that AFD 35mm? I see nothing on Leaf's site about that one, but something wider than 50mm for sensors 60mm on the diagonal does seem the logical next step.
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xx
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Kipling,
Pricing policies and such will be announced closer to the shipping date, which is likely to be in the 2nd part of 2007. As you can read in the "New Promotions (http://www.leaf-photography.com/pages/products/leafafipromo.aspx) section we already offer some specials to people who buy backs for Contax and RZ/ RB/ V systems.
I personally had a few opportunities to "play" with an early prototype of the camera and in my opinion it is going to be one of the best handling and most versatile MF cameras made. It feels very balanced (at least with the 80mm), bright viefinder, fast AF, adjustable grip, "analog" buttons for the main functions...all seems very well thought out.
Brenton,
The 35mm is going to be a 2.8 from Schneider, More info will come as soon as it is available during the next months
Torben,
I'm sorry if this piece of information was somehow dropped and I can imagine that at the time we did not have this information. The Contax is a fine system and as I understand your back of choice is neither Sinar nor Leaf so the Hy6/ AFi is irrelevant to you.
I hope this answers all the questions
Yair
[span style=\'font-size:7pt;line-height:100%\']Yair Shahar | Regional Manager | Leaf EMEA |
mob: +44 77 8992 8199 | yair.shahar@kodak.com | www.leaf-photography.com
Leaf, part of Kodak's Graphic Communications Group
[/span]
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I am in the process of looking to upgrade my Aptus17 somewhere end of this year,
I use multiple camera systems that all have the V-Mount. From the looks of the special you can now buy a back, exchange it later for an Afi back?
Fine. But how can I continue to use this back on my TrueWide or on my 503CW or on any other V mount machine?
Will there be adapters available to mount a V-Back on an Afi body? Or will there be adapters to mount an Afi back on a V-mount body?
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i think all was answered by yaya and thierry in the previous long tread about the HY6.
they said the camera is under exclusive control of jenoptik and licensed to sinar and leaf not to third parties. if this is time limited we will see..... but two years or five or whatever time limit is a long time in digital age. ....
in any case i enjoy my new (old) contax also and will see what will bring the future.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=94668\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
amazing.....i don't think they even mentioned exclusivity....they said theat they would support the Hy6....that does not mean that phase won't...they would probably want to be exclusive, but i doubt they can have that....as a Rollei lover and user and as a Phase owner (and mamiya user) i have to say that it would be suicide to take the market share that is left for rollei (which is tiny enough) and cut that in half even more because they won't support Phase...crazy...could it be? everything can happen...i have absolutely no doubt that we will see phase backs on a Hy6..if rollei doesn't do it, someone else will...simple as that....regardless of what sinar and leaf want to see....
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the 35mm AF was announced before the Hy6 and has been described and written about in this forum...why is there any doubt? of course we are all still waiting for the 28mm mamiya, but that is a different story....
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amazing.....i don't think they even mentioned exclusivity....they said theat they would support the Hy6....that does not mean that phase won't...they would probably want to be exclusive, but i doubt they can have that....as a Rollei lover and user and as a Phase owner (and mamiya user) i have to say that it would be suicide to take the market share that is left for rollei (which is tiny enough) and cut that in half even more because they won't support Phase...crazy...could it be? everything can happen...i have absolutely no doubt that we will see phase backs on a Hy6..if rollei doesn't do it, someone else will...simple as that....regardless of what sinar and leaf want to see....
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=95165\")
Really? Take a look at [a href=\"http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=429376]http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=429376[/url].
For all the criticism of Hasselblad with the H3D, at least they are still making the H2 for those that want to put a Phase back on it. It appears that Rollei/Leaf/Sinar will not allow that with the Hy6.
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Ray,
An AFi back will not fit a V-series camera. It may fit your TrueWide if KG choose and are allowed to make an adapter plate for it. Same for other LF cameras etc.
A V back will not fit the AFi camera.
Rgds
Yair
I am in the process of looking to upgrade my Aptus17 somewhere end of this year,
I use multiple camera systems that all have the V-Mount. From the looks of the special you can now buy a back, exchange it later for an Afi back?
Fine. But how can I continue to use this back on my TrueWide or on my 503CW or on any other V mount machine?
Will there be adapters available to mount a V-Back on an Afi body? Or will there be adapters to mount an Afi back on a V-mount body?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=95156\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Ray,
An AFi back will not fit a V-series camera. It may fit your TrueWide if KG choose and are allowed to make an adapter plate for it. Same for other LF cameras etc.
A V back will not fit the AFi camera.
Rgds
Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=95178\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That means I probably will have to get 2 backs when I want to get an Afi which is unfortunate naturally. It was something I feared from the start and which was unclear until now.
I just hope the Afi Back mount spec's will be made available to adapter makers fairly soon. I was kind of hoping Leaf would be able to provide adapters to be able to use other back mounts on the Afi as well (even if it would mean limited functionality).
How about upgrade deals for current Leaf DB owners? Currently the deal is for people that buy new into the system. For me upgrading is getting myself in between a rock and a hardplace. I can choose not to go Afi and use my back in the studio with the Truewide or I can go the Afi route and render my Truewide useless thus not being able to use TS glass and such.
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I'm not sure about the unclear thing. For the last 6 years Leaf has been making camera-specific mounts for all the backs and there was no plan to change it with the AFi.
Mechanically it should be possible to make an adapter plate to fit oher backs on it but the focal plane won't sit in the right place.
Upgrades for sure will be available for everyone, but there is no reason to publish them at this point.
Yair
That means I probably will have to get 2 backs when I want to get an Afi which is unfortunate naturally. It was something I feared from the start and which was unclear until now.
I just hope the Afi Back mount spec's will be made available to adapter makers fairly soon. I was kind of hoping Leaf would be able to provide adapters to be able to use other back mounts on the Afi as well (even if it would mean limited functionality).
How about upgrade deals for current Leaf DB owners? Currently the deal is for people that buy new into the system. For me upgrading is getting myself in between a rock and a hardplace. I can choose not to go Afi and use my back in the studio with the Truewide or I can go the Afi route and render my Truewide useless thus not being able to use TS glass and such.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=95226\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I'm not sure about the unclear thing. For the last 6 years Leaf has been making camera-specific mounts for all the backs and there was no plan to change it with the AFi.
Mechanically it should be possible to make an adapter plate to fit oher backs on it but the focal plane won't sit in the right place.
Upgrades for sure will be available for everyone, but there is no reason to publish them at this point.
Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=95228\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The unclear part has got nothing to do with Leaf making backs for most camera mounts for the last 6 years but more with questions about how/whether people that already have DB's can use these on the new Afi system. This question has now been answered with a clear 'No' as far as I understand it correctly.
On several occasions multiple persons (including myself) have asked the very same question, about the back mount, which could not be answered by any Leaf spokesman at that time. That is unclear in my book.
An adapter that gets the back sitting out of the focal plane makes it practically pretty useless.
Imacon has been able to provide their customers with an adapter system where the client can buy only 1 back and change adapters when this back needs to be used on a different system. These adapters get the back perfectly in the focal plane.
I certainly hoped Leaf would opt to go that route as well. I do not mind putting down 1K USD on an adapter but have some problems with putting down 15K for a second back.
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First, thanks Yair: your post about the Schneider 35/2.8 in more or less official capacity from Leaf seems the best I am going to get for now.
From most companies I would expect official news on a web-site, but Rollei's web-site http://www.rollei.com/en/index.html (http://www.rollei.com/en/index.html) is a disaster in that respect: the only cameras on the product list there are compact digitals!. (Along with the stunning innovation of Rollei film and processing supplies; repackaged MACO.)
the 35mm AF was announced before the Hy6 and has been described and written about in this forum...why is there any doubt?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=95167\")
I asked exactly because I wanted a citation of such an announcement from Rollei or the lens maker, which I have still not seen: lots of imaginary future products get confidently discussed in forums!
At least when it comes to the Mamiya 28mm, the sort of announcement I seek has been made:
[a href=\"http://www.mamiya.com/assets/pdfs/Mamiya_New_AF_Lenses_PR.pdf]http://www.mamiya.com/assets/pdfs/Mamiya_N...F_Lenses_PR.pdf[/url]
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To save Yair from too much typing:
http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=429376 (http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=429376)
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Really? Take a look at http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=429376 (http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=429376)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=95175\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
As far as I can tell, the only thing the BJP article says is that the F&H Hy6 body will be branded by Rollie, Leaf and Sinar. Leaf and Sinar are obviously interested in selling the body along with their respective backs as a bundle, but since Rollie doesn't make any backs, they are presumably free to work with any other back maker, including Phase. I don't see how this article in any way "proves", or even suggests, that a Phase back won't be available for a Rollie branded version. Also, keep in mind that the article is mostly unsubstantiated speculation based on unnamed sources.
Regarding the supposed Jenoptic connection, and how they allegedly want to freeze out Phase by recouping their investment by using the Hy6 to sell Sinar backs, that doesn't make much sense, given that Leaf is also going to sell their own version. Isn't Leaf a competitor to Sinar? If the Jenoptic connection were true, why would they let Leaf sell their own branded version. And finally, I thought Leica was now the majority share holder of Sinar, not Jenoptic. So how exactly does Jenoptic fit into this again?
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Regarding the supposed Jenoptik connection, and how they allegedly want to freeze out Phase by recouping their investment by using the Hy6 to sell Sinar backs, that doesn't make much sense, given that Leaf is also going to sell their own version. Isn't Leaf a competitor to Sinar? If the Jenoptik connection were true, why would they let Leaf sell their own branded version. And finally, I thought Leica was now the majority share holder of Sinar, not Jenoptik. So how exactly does Jenoptik fit into this again?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
[/quote] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=97872\")
Hi
Jenoptik owns Sinar ( the Leica deal fell through ). Jenoptik owns the Hy6 and put 4 million Euros into that camera, it is their camera. Yes Leaf has a licence to the Hy6. Jenoptik has also signed a working relationship with Leaf. The Sinar back is actually a Jenoptik back with a Sinar badge. The way I see it is that Jenoptik wants to increase the market share of Sinar by not allowing Phase on board. Finally Leaf & Sinar used to work together 7 years ago. This is a way of gaining market share. Hasselblad is doing the same with the H3D 22,31 & 39.
[a href=\"http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:rwHbBbzJ_7oJ:www.leaf-photography.com/files/Press%2520Releases/Leaf-Janoptiks_Cooperation.pdf+jenoptik+and+Leaf&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4]http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:rwHbBb...en&ct=clnk&cd=4[/url]
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This is my first post to the forum and it's a shame it's a little negative. I just want to second those who say wait for the Rollei Hy whatever to come out properly and be used in anger for a few months before getting too excited (I have "played" with one and the shutter sounds exactly like my old 6008). The only cameras I've ever owned that I could rely on 99.999% of the time were my Mamiya RZs. I owned three Rolleis, a 6008,6006 and an SLX. Many a shoot was finished on the SLX because the other two had died that day!! In my opinion Rollei had woeful electronics ( yes the lenses were good) and it would take a time for me to trust them again. I'm not a war photographer and treated those cameras with kid gloves but they still died......
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I have "played" with one and the shutter sounds exactly like my old 6008
Hmm... these cameras don't have shutters!
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I assume he means the mirror slap sounds the same as on the 6008.
Hmm... these cameras don't have shutters!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=97900\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Jenoptik owns the Hy6 and put 4 million Euros into that camera, it is their camera.
Sorry, I'm not buying that. Or put another way, I'll believe it when I see it. There has been a lot of uninformed speculation on the subject IMHO. Michael, who's very well connected, has been indicating that Phase will be available for Hy6, so unless he's retracted his statements to that effect, that seems the most plausible route.
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I have been using Contax 645 since its introduction with film, and P25 and P45 until today, very pleases with how the camera works and the results. I am continue to hope once Zeiss resolved their issue of Contax with Kyocera, Zeiss will continue to build the 645 with someone, may be Cosina??
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I assume he means the mirror slap sounds the same as on the 6008.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=97907\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Spot on. That's what I meant, though there are shutters in each lens so the noise of the mirror combines with that of the shutter.
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Spot on. That's what I meant, though there are shutters in each lens so the noise of the mirror combines with that of the shutter.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=97922\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Music to my ears!
The shutter in the lens is very quiet however, I'm interested in hearing the sound without film advance. My 6008 with eMotion e22 still has the motor advancing non-existent film after firing the shutter. I've heard that the motor is disabled with Phase P20s.
Late 6008s are very reliable. No problems at this end - I've got three bodies and nine lenses so feel a tad qualified.
Even though it is being mentioned that Phase might be excluded, I think that would be a shame if it turns out to be true. We should be able to be free to choose what currently available back goes on our camera - just like we do with film. I hope that Michael is correct on this matter.
I guess we'll have to wait and see...
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the early 6008s had some electronic problems...the later ones have no problems at all...
i still would like to see exactly WHERE anyone NOT connected with sinar or leaf or any other competition to phase has made any statement about phase not being supported....no statement from rollei or phase or anyone who actually matters....just because there is no announcement yet for a camera not even available yet does not mean it will not support phase! this is crazy! yair and mr.sinar come here and make vague statements about things they have no control over and some people read things into these statements and write posts that seem to state facts where there aren't any!
so please anyone with any actual statement from either rollei or phase denying any future compatibility please come forward....no third party, no competitors please....
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the early 6008s had some electronic problems...the later ones have no problems at all...
i still would like to see exactly WHERE anyone NOT connected with sinar or leaf or any other competition to phase has made any statement about phase not being supported....no statement from rollei or phase or anyone who actually matters....just because there is no announcement yet for a camera not even available yet does not mean it will not support phase! this is crazy! yair and mr.sinar come here and make vague statements about things they have no control over and some people read things into these statements and write posts that seem to state facts where there aren't any!
so please anyone with any actual statement from either rollei or phase denying any future compatibility please come forward....no third party, no competitors please....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=97978\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Everyone that we KNOW is involved with the Hy6 says that the only MFDBs for the Hy6/AFi will be those from Sinar and Leaf, and the silence from Phase itself is deafening and the most telling of all. Don't you think they would be happy to announce that they are part of the program, if they were? Sinar and Leaf bought exclusivity by putting up the money for the development costs for the Hy6 and signing , and now they are doing exactly what Hasselblad did with the H3D. It's a fierce marketplace out there.
As for a statement from "anyone who matters", please note that Jenoptic owns Sinar and Sinar, in addition to selling the Hy6 for its MFDBs, has also signed on as the exclusive distributor for Rollei Professional products, so I would think they know a bit about the Rollei branded version of the Hy6 and what backs will fit it.
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One of the interesting positive things is that the guys at Francke & Heidecke including the CEO, at Photokina, behaved as people, rather than autistic geeks. They give straight direct answers and treated everyone like *potential customers*. So far what they've promised I have seen them hold to. I'm inclined to cut them some slack because of this open attitude. I'm not saying they can do the impossible, but I think they can build a decent camera, and with Leaf on board for a version, I don't think they'll make any obvious mistakes.
So far so good.
Edmund
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Everyone that we KNOW is involved with the Hy6 says that the only MFDBs for the Hy6/AFi will be those from Sinar and Leaf, and the silence from Phase itself is deafening and the most telling of all. Don't you think they would be happy to announce that they are part of the program, if they were? Sinar and Leaf bought exclusivity by putting up the money for the development costs for the Hy6 and signing , and now they are doing exactly what Hasselblad did with the H3D. It's a fierce marketplace out there.
As for a statement from "anyone who matters", please note that Jenoptic owns Sinar and Sinar, in addition to selling the Hy6 for its MFDBs, has also signed on as the exclusive distributor for Rollei Professional products, so I would think they know a bit about the Rollei branded version of the Hy6 and what backs will fit it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=97984\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
so now sinar and leaf put up the money to finance the Hy6? where did that come from? sinar is the new us distributor for rollei and leaf has a body made to fit their backs...sinar now owns a part of franke&heidecke...honestly i lost oversight of who actually owns franke&h...but sinar and leaf did not finance the development of the Hy6....
all sinar and leaf are saying that THEIR AFis and Sinar Hy6 won't accept phase backs...no surprise....
anyway we will know more in a year from now...i am confident i will be able to attach a phase back to a Hy6 then.....which is also what a phase rep told me....which really does not mean anything...
PS: i just got an email from sinar with their new announcements....the Hy6 in there as well...listed as one of 7 features is the "open interface for user-friendly back adaptations" ...yes this sounds like a closed system....
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.....which is also what a phase rep told me....which really does not mean anything...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=98171\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
well it means something and this it means "real":
maybe the phase rep would like to sell phase backs now and he dont care too much what will happen in one year.
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well it means something and this it means "real":
maybe the phase rep would like to sell phase backs now and he dont care too much what will happen in one year.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=98179\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
that was my point....
and that is why i don't listen to what leaf or sinar reps say about their competition either....
but i do think the email announcement pretty much sums it up...
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so now sinar and leaf put up the money to finance the Hy6? where did that come from? sinar is the new us distributor for rollei and leaf has a body made to fit their backs...sinar now owns a part of franke&heidecke...honestly i lost oversight of who actually owns franke&h...but sinar and leaf did not finance the development of the Hy6....
all sinar and leaf are saying that THEIR AFis and Sinar Hy6 won't accept phase backs...no surprise....
anyway we will know more in a year from now...i am confident i will be able to attach a phase back to a Hy6 then.....which is also what a phase rep told me....which really does not mean anything...
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=98171\")
Please take a look at [a href=\"http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=429376]http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=429376[/url].
I suppose BJP or its sources could be lying and we should bring in Oliver Stone to sort it out, but it all seems clear to me. Jenoptik owns Sinar, Jenoptik hired F&H to develop the Hy6 using Rollei tooling and know how to get a great platform for ITS backs, Jenoptik paid the development costs, Leaf joined in and agreed to buy a minimum number of Hy6s for its backs and perhaps shared some of the upfront costs with Jenoptik, Jenoptik (and perhaps Leaf) have full control over whose backs will mount on the Hy6s, and they don't want Phase backs on the Hy6s because they want to put Phase out of business just like Toyota wants to put GM and Ford out of business. Jenoptik has zero interest in making you happy. They want you to regret buying a Phase back rather than a Sinar back. And they are no more interested in being a camera company in the service of Phase owners than Hasselblad is. The money is in the digital side, where the profit margins are high and users regulalrly upgrade.
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I was wondering,if a company like KaptureGroup could make an Phase - Hy6 adapter?
Or would they get sued?
I just purchased an eMotion-75,therefore I don't have any issues,however I also believe it would be great if the Hy6 was available for all MFDB's.
My reason for this?
The more Hy6's they sell,more new lenses and accessories will become available sooner.
Cheers,
Willem.
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sinar now owns a part of franke&heidecke...
No, F&H is owned by its own management, afaik. Jenoptik has controlling interest in Sinar.
all sinar and leaf are saying that THEIR AFis and Sinar Hy6 won't accept phase backs...no surprise....
I've never seen this. Can you provide a link to such a statement? From all I've read it still seems that the interface will be universal. The cameras will be identical. If so, the backs will be interchangeable too.
listed as one of 7 features is the "open interface for user-friendly back adaptations" ...yes this sounds like a closed system....
Sounds good.
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Jenoptik owns Sinar, Jenoptik hired F&H to develop the Hy6.....Jenoptik (and perhaps Leaf) have full control over whose backs will mount on the Hy6s, and they don't want Phase backs on the Hy6s because they want to put Phase out of business
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=98181\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You have a vivid imagination. There has not been one shred of evidence offered by you that supports these rather presumtious statements. The BJP article ONLY says that Rollei, Leaf and Sinar will sell branded versions of the F&H Hy6. The F&H documentation I've seen suggests they own the Hy6 design, not Jenoptik. You go on and on about how Jenoptic owns the design because they put 4 million euros into it. 4 milliion euros is a pittance, and I doubt it's anywhere near enough to buy the design outright. 4 million euros, assuming they really put in 4 million euros at all, is at best only the licensing fee to allow Jenoptik to sell a Sinar-branded version of the Hy6. Nothing more.
Bottom line - you make very presumptious statements as if they were facts, without offering a shred of proof. The BJP article doesn't prove anything, and in fact suggests something much narrower than your assertions. At this point, the people who do know the facts aren't talking.
Just because you believe something is true doesn't make it true. When you have proof that Jenoptik paid 4 million euros to F&H, and when you have proof that Jenoptik owns the Hy6 design, and when you have proof that Jenoptic somehow has veto power over whether Phase backs can appear on the Hy6, and when you have proof that Phase backs won't appear on a Hy6, then post it. But until then, you're just engaged in speculation like the rest of us are.
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Bottom line - you make very presumptious statements as if they were facts, without offering a shred of proof. The BJP article doesn't prove anything, and in fact suggests something much narrower than your assertions. At this point, the people who do know the facts aren't talking.
Please look at the logic, why would Sinar want Phase involved??? Jenoptik owns Sinar & Leaf is licenced to the Hy6. The best way to resolve this is call Jenoptik, ask them will Phase be involved?
Thanks Denis
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Dear All,
It is my feeling that it has become necessary to give some information again about the whole situation: Sinar, Hy6, Jenoptik, Franke & Heidecke, who is the owner of the project, who has which rights, who owns who, etc ....
I will try to make it as clear as possible to everybody, since there seems to be much confusion and wrong information circulating around. What I will be writing are all known facts and not confidential at all. As such, you can take my information as an official one, since I am signing with "Sinar AG Switzerland", or then you can get this same information from Sinar AG directly in Switzerland.
All other information not included or mentioned below is either unknown from me, or then confidential, and will be communicated at the appropriate time, if necessary.
- Jenoptik AG Germany owes Sinar AG Switzerland ---> www.jenoptik.com
- Sinar is integrated in the "Laser - Optic and Sensors Systems" division of Jenoptik = Jenoptik-LOS GmbH
for more information go to following link:
http://www.jenoptik-los.com/cms.php?pageid=60&lang=1 (http://www.jenoptik-los.com/cms.php?pageid=60&lang=1)
- It has been announced and pupblished officially (Press Release dated December 13th 2006) that the Jenoptik AG - Leica AG sale/purchase agreement of Sinar AG had been canceled:
---> http://www.jenoptik.com/cps/rde/xchg/SID-2...l/3725_4723.htm (http://www.jenoptik.com/cps/rde/xchg/SID-26EE34DB-2EE9F590/jenoptik/hs.xsl/3725_4723.htm)
- Jenoptik AG has developped (R&D), financed (paid for) the project of the new camera known under the names Sinar Hy6 and Leaf AFi and appointed Franke & Heidecke Germany to manufacture it.
- As such, Jenoptik HAS the exclusive sales rights for this particular camera and has given these sales rights to Sinar AG and Kodak- Leaf, whatever are the terms of these agreements.
- Franke & Heidecke has the rights to sell this camera in Japan, China and Russia ONLY, AND under the name "Rolleiflex" (and has not the rights to sell it to Phase One).
- Phase One is not part of this project, which means in clear that this camera will not be sold to Phase One.
- Sinar AG has no plans to provide adapter plates for either Phase One or Hasselblad digital backs.
- The Sinar Hy6 camera will be released by end of the second quarter of 2007: Production is started with the 0-series to be ready in a few weeks.
- Prices, Upgrades and possibe Kits available will be communicated through the official Sinar distributors worldwide and in due time, except for Japan, China and Russia.
Thanks to all,
Thierry
Sinar AG Switzerland
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Sorry, I'm not buying that. Or put another way, I'll believe it when I see it. There has been a lot of uninformed speculation on the subject IMHO. Michael, who's very well connected, has been indicating that Phase will be available for Hy6, so unless he's retracted his statements to that effect, that seems the most plausible route.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=97912\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I guess you can still reject my reality and substitute your own.
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i think everything has been said several times here, no use to repeating it all again...we will all know more in a year from now...
about the "logic" of ownership: kodak owns leaf, which unlike phase and hasselblad does NOT use kodak imagers....
jenoptic is a very large company and their involvemnt with sinar is similar to kodaks with leaf...i would be surprised if the top people at kodak are even aware that they own one of the largest DMF companies which happens to be one of two that do NOT use kodak chips.....
i read that jenoptic builds (among many other things) the rooms that intel makes their chips in....so imagine how much 4mill euro is for them and how much they care about sinar or who uses which back and how they can rule the world of DMF huahahaha!!!
i have said this before but as a rollei fan and schneider on rollei fan i can only hope that phase backs will work somehow....it is one thing for hasselblad (who owns a very large share of the MF market) to force people into their system but for rollei, sinar or even leaf to attempt the same is simply laughable....in other words: if the Hy6 will accept all backs (one way or another, adapters, whatever...) it has the chance to succeed and actually give hass some competition...if not it will be a fringe system in a disappearing fringe market....which of course jenoptic would not really care about either.....
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Dear All,
It is my feeling that it has become necessary to give some information again about the whole situation: Sinar, Hy6, Jenoptik, Franke & Heidecke, who is the owner of the project, who has which rights, who owns who, etc ....
Thanks to all,
Thierry
Sinar AG Switzerland
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=98272\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks Thierry. At least this sounds definitive, rather than nebulous references to BJP that some keep making.
Still, it's a shame, since if this is true the Hy6 won't be the wonderful "open" camera that many had been hoping for. Takes quite a lot of the luster of off the whole thing, actually, and sounds no better than what Hasselblad is doing.
Is it your understanding that F&H, in selling the Rolleiflex branded version, will be required to use only Sinar or Leaf backs, or will they be free to be a true "open" architecture MF body and be open to all backs?
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Is it your understanding that F&H, in selling the Rolleiflex branded version, will be required to use only Sinar or Leaf backs, or will they be free to be a true "open" architecture MF body and be open to all backs?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=98356\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thierry:
Is there a chance that the Russian mafia will be smuggling open architecture Hy6s into the US for black market sale?
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Why do people keep implying that the Sinar or Leaf versions will somehow be locked. So far the official word is that these cameras are "rebadged" which normally means they are identical mechanically and electrically.
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Thierry:
Is there a chance that the Russian mafia will be smuggling open architecture Hy6s into the US for black market sale?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=98373\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
With buying over the web these days, I suppose anybody anywhere could buy a Rolleiflex badged Hy6 from a Japanese online dealer (no Russian mafia needed :-). Of course, that leaves you in the lurch regarding service. And as you (or maybe somebody else) said on the other thread on this topic, if you're forced to buy the Hy6 (however it's badged) bundled with either the Sinar or Leaf back, then nobody is going to be buying any other back, so in effect even the Rolleiflex version would be closed. Sigh.
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Thierry:
Is there a chance that the Russian mafia will be smuggling open architecture Hy6s into the US for black market sale?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=98373\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Why do yo think that the camera sold by F&H is branded Rolleiflex?
I think this answers pretty well, beside that it won't make any sense pricewise.
Best regards,
Thierry
Sinar AG Switzerland
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Why do yo think that the camera sold by F&H is branded Rolleiflex?
I think this answers pretty well, beside that it won't make any sense pricewise.
Best regards,
Thierry
Sinar AG Switzerland
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=98465\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think one thing that is forgotten in all of this is most people that shoot medium format like options.
I would be perfectly happy if my digital backs worked on any platform without complicated adpaters or issues, but that is not the case, so I went the Contax route because it gave me a lens options, from Pentax 6x7, hasselblad, Russian Tilt Shifts to the standard Ziess Contax lenses.
Maybe the HY6 will eventually have a huge lens range and series of accessories, but and this is a big question, when will they all appear and for how much?
I hope the HY6 is a success, but I think it will be difficult for a camera platform to cover territory when it's limited to just one or two backs, especially since the largest seller of backs is not available.
To me it would be like in the film days making a camera that excluded the use of Fuji Film.
This goes against the electronic world's business model, but as long as people keep making digital backs for my Contax, it really can be a 10 year camera system, even though it is out of production, because Contax sold a huge volume of product before they shut down.
Knowing this, I wonder how long it will take the HY6 to reach the same market penetration as Contax?
JR