Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: BobDavid on December 21, 2006, 09:42:40 am
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I've recently acquired a Hartblei 45mm F/3.5 Super Rotator. I'm wondering how that compares, in terms of performance, to Mamiya's 50mm Shift lens. If you've had experience with any of these lenses, please share your thoughts.
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hi bob,
i use the 50mm shift on canon 1ds and 5d and its quite ok - as good as the 50mm flektogon or the 1.4/50mm canon. last week i used it on the mamiya zd and there I found it a bit soft. but more important: it doesn´t get softer even at full shift and it has nearly no visible distortion (at least I haven´t noticed any).
hope that helps.
how do you like the hartblei?
stefan marquardt
www.stefanmarquardt.de
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hi Bob
I have the mamiya 50. I am very happy with it. I find you have to focus 1st and then shift. did a big interior showroom last week and found that I prefered using the 50 to the 35mm. nice to get up on a ladder and then shift down to keep vericals straight. shot most at f16 and f22. sharpness ok. Because shots were for billboards I used silkypix to open raw files then focal blade on light sharpening. what i do is I use the sharpening tool to selectively sharpen small details etc like flowers, stitching etc. Overall look is very sharp without the oversharpened look. wish the lens had tilt but all my shots on this particular shoot was sharp front to back. focus was sort of in the middle. I did extra shots with focus more to the front and rear but middle focus was ok. didnt have time to view all the shots in detail on the laptop. Too slow anyway with ZD's huge files. 50m is also nice for interiors as it hasnt got this ultrawide look. Stopped down to f16/22 viewfinder is very dark(on ZD). Lens is very well build and I wish the other mamiya AF lenses I have was as well build. Using the shifts to build a panoramic shot: On my initial test I did get a shift in colour towards the extreme side of the shifts. whether its the lens or the camera I cant say. will have to do more test to see if I would use it commercially. would be ok in B&W for landscapes etc though.
You also have more shift with digital because of the smaller chip size.
The hartblei seems to be a fantastic lens though and our hosts review on it was very positive. will be on my shopping list for the future!
Thanks Ivan
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hi bob,
last week i used it on the mamiya zd and there I found it a bit soft. but more important: it doesn´t get softer even at full shift and it has nearly no visible distortion (at least I haven´t noticed any).
hi stefan
On a A3 print image from the 50shift and ZD looked supersharp. Admittedly with some selective sharpening in photoshop. Lens is fast becomming my favourite when using a tripod!
BTW how do you find the ZD?
Thanks Ivan
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Can someone please point me to a link of the Mamiya 50 shift? Is this the non-AF lens made for the 645 Pro? Can a 645 Pro non-AF lens be used on a 645 AFD?
One more thing, does anyone have any experience with the Hartblei 65 TS on a Mamiya 645 AFD?
TIA
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BTW how do you find the ZD?
Thanks Ivan
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hi ivan,
that was only a test in the camera-shop. i have two big jobs coming up, where i thought that my normal 5d plus the zörk and the pentax, schneider, mamiya, and zeiss jena lenses weren´t enough. I took to days looking at the zd files on the monitor and was at first quite disapointed. I expected to go WHOW. I only testet the zd on exposures from 1 to 10 seconds, becouse that what i usualy use (interiors). color (shop-fluorecent) didnt´t seem good. the sharpness was worse than with the 5d/pentax combo. it took me a while to work out how to work the file and that they need extra sharpening. (i thought it was only the canons with their aa-filter, that needed strong usm.) now i get a sharper file - but not much better than with the 5d+pentax 35mm. the new pentax -lens clearly resolves more detail than the mamiya lens. it just shows the importance of the lens- again.
my biggest concern is that - coming from the zörk-system with about 10 perfect shiftlenses from 35 to 150mm -with the zd i only have the 50mm shift. a bit limiting. but I might get the zd anyway and keep using the 5d too. I said goodby to the idea that there is a one-camera-solution.
ivan - did you notice any distortion on the mamiya shift-lens?
and: how does the zd behave under tungsten light?
bob- you find the lens on ebay for not much money - and it´s a manuel lens but you can use them on the af-cameras to (without the autofucus - but with focus-confirmation - wich i find absolutely great!!! (coming from canon)
by the way: what nearly kocked me over (and made me wanting to get that zd) is the ability to retain highlight. you know how (at least with canon) you always get those burned patches on a shiny floor, from reflections from the windows and strong lamps - i didn´t see any of that with the zd - absolutely great - worth more to me than the tiny bit in more resolution.
stefan marquardt
www.architekturbild.de
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I took to days looking at the zd files on the monitor and was at first quite disapointed. I expected to go WHOW. I only testet the zd on exposures from 1 to 10 seconds, becouse that what i usualy use (interiors). color (shop-fluorecent) didnt´t seem good. the sharpness was worse than with the 5d/pentax combo. it took me a while to work out how to work the file and that they need extra sharpening. (i thought it was only the canons with their aa-filter, that needed strong usm.) now i get a sharper file - but not much better than with the 5d+pentax 35mm. the new pentax -lens clearly resolves more detail than the mamiya lens. it just shows the importance of the lens- again.
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I would advice to try out Raw Developper if you feel that the ZD files are not sharp enough.
I does offer a lot more control on that that other RAW converters, although at the cost of slightly more noise in the images (mostly not visible in print).
When trying to get too much sharpness for small details, there is a risk of getting artificial looking diagonals (staircase effect), but it is possible by doing a double conversion to get the best of both worlds.
My D2x is sharp, but the ZD is even sharper when converted properlly. I would say that it corresponds to probably 25-26 MP compared to AA filter DSLRs.
Regards,
Bernard
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I'm using the Hartblei Super Rotator on my M645 AFD with an Imacon 384C back. The back produces beautiful files, especially in 4-shot mode. The one disadvantage is that the sensor is 37mm X 37mm. I like the square for still lifes but it severly limits wide agle capabilities for architecture.
The Hartblei is a highly flexible lens, although it's a bit combersome to use. I find that it's not as sharp as the Mamiya 35mm. I guess my biggest question is whether the Harblei is as sharp as the Mamiya 50mm shift.
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I guess my biggest question is whether the Harblei is as sharp as the Mamiya 50mm shift.
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hi bob,
is it the manual focus or the af 35mm you have?
i used to use the manual version and can compare it to that only- dont know if the af version is better than the old one. the 35mm (which i used as a shift-lens on canons) is quite sharp in the middle but gets soft at the very edges plus it shows quite a bit ca. the shiftlens is the same as the 35mm in the center - but stays sharp even in the corners. and there is not that much ca. the 35mm has some even distortion, that is easy to correct.
i would guess, the mamiya shift is quite a bit better than the hartblei (but then it doesn´t tilt). both are not very wide for architecture - but ok for interior.
something i am going to investigate is, using the pentax 76 lenses (45mm!) with a zörk shift adapter on the mamiya. but i am a bit concerned about the sharpness of those old lenses. they are probaply not up to the pentax 645 af quality.
has anybody got experience with pentax 67 lenses on a digiback?
stefan marquardt
www.stefanmarquardt.de
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I would advice to try out Raw Developper if you feel that the ZD files are not sharp enough.
hi bernard,
if I would have a mac, I would have tried out RD - heard/read good thinks about it before. I might by a mac just to get a better software. dont like the mamiya or the silkypix software.
i saw your landscape pic - and that made me try out the zd and when i looked at my files i kept going back and for to your pic wondering where the sharpness in my file went. i very much liked the little bit of noise in the pic - just like filmgrain wich i always ad to my overly smooth canon files anyway - so that would save me one step in my workflow ;-).
was that landscape pic converted with RD?
and was that the af 35mm lens?
thanks
stefan
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ivan - did you notice any distortion on the mamiya shift-lens?
and: how does the zd behave under tungsten light?
hi
tundsten lights : no problems. I set it on tungsten balance and include a gray card somewhere in photo. I use silkypix and graycard to neutralize colours further. works fine for me. Very little distortion, nothing I cant fix in photoshop. Far less distortion than the 35mm AF. Also sharper imo.
I also tested a 5d in a camera shop and was not impressed at all. with same tests in shop with the ZD i was bowled over, compared to my 20d (and 5d tests) Decided to change 5d purchase in favour of ZD. so far I have no regrets. Maybe camera shops are not the ideal place to test cameras?
Thanks Ivan
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was that landscape pic converted with RD?
and was that the af 35mm lens?
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Hi Stefan,
If you speak about the snow view with 4 guys climbing up, then no, it was shot with the 300 mm f4.5.
The image was indeed converted with RD.
A note of caution on the ZD in landscapce applications, the battery life in cold weather is extremely short on a battery charge (15 - 30 images at -10C)... to the extend that I now consider the camera to be close to unusable in suz zero weather.
I is a major disapointement for me. I'll write on this in the coming days.
Cheers,
Bernard
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If you speak about the snow view with 4 guys climbing up, then no, it was shot with the 300 mm f4.5.
no, I ment the rushing water pic (or was that not from you?)
stefan
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no, I ment the rushing water pic (or was that not from you?)
stefan
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Oops, yes, that is indeed the 35 mm and was also converted with RD.
Cheers,
Bernard
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hi Bernard
May I ask what tripod you use? I have an old 300f5.6 manual focus mamiya lens for my zd and I find on my lightweight magfiber manfrotto 055 with 029 head that below 1/125 sec, with mirror lift that I do get vibrations from the shutter. I have heavier tripods but they are too heavy for field work.
thanks Ivan
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Oops, yes, that is indeed the 35 mm and was also converted with RD.
and was it the old the mf or he new af-version?
thanks stefan
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hi Bernard
May I ask what tripod you use? I have an old 300f5.6 manual focus mamiya lens for my zd and I find on my lightweight magfiber manfrotto 055 with 029 head that below 1/125 sec, with mirror lift that I do get vibrations from the shutter. I have heavier tripods but they are too heavy for field work.
thanks Ivan
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I have been using a Gitzo 1257 with a RRS BH-40 head.
Cheers,
Bernard
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and was it the old the mf or he new af-version?
thanks stefan
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The AF version.
Regards,
Bernard
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Just ordered a 45mm Harblei super rotator for my Mamiya ZD. Will report back when I have used it a bit. I recall a quite favourable review from Michael some while back when used with a Kodak Pro back, I believe. Its priced in $$, and with the weak dollar / strong GB Pound, its extra good value.
Quentin
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I have possible photography assignment for 4 or 5 architectural projects from a recent contacted (friend of a friend) architect here in NY, so I'm getting ready.
I have the 645 AFD, 80mm, 45mm and 150mm AF and the PhaseOne P25 (22MP) back.
I have read the presiding posts and will try to cover first the practical solutions with that involve -figuratively- lesser moving parts.
First on my agenda is to buy the "Mamiya Super Wide Angle 35mm f/3.5 Autofocus Lens for 645AF" This is a AF all auto non-tilt shift lens that will be always on my pelican case.
Following options are to consider using PS for virtual shifting. Advantage would be to be able to shoot faster and concentrate more on lighting, angles etc.
Next would be to test or find report on test of the 45mm Harblei super rotator.
Also Mamiya has announced the 28mm (is it 28mm?)
The advantage of shift lens on top of the AFD645 as opposed to an Alpa/Horsman + Schenaider digitar class of solution is --theoreticaly- in two aspects: First the idea of dismounting and mounting the PhaseOne on the field for focusing sounds like stress elevating procedure to me --and the flex thing too expensive and cumbersome--. Second: retro focus optics may be better for projection of image circle in to the sensel wells than the non retro focus optics.
This last point is very seldom discussed in regard to wide angle/ts optics, so I don't even know if I have even created it in my head. What do you think?
The other thing to have is this http://www.imagealign.com/: (http://www.imagealign.com/:) picture correction software and a good fish eye.
Happy 2007 !
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I've worked with the Hartblei 45mm Super Rotator and just got a Mamiya 50mm shift lens today. I've run a series of tests (taking two photos and stitching them in PS photomerge) with both lenses. The tests were conducted on a Mamiya 645 AFD/Imacon 384C, with the camera mounted on a Novoflex Castel-L rack to keep the lens(s) in the same position to prevent parrallax distortion. So, essentially, the camera and shift lens functions as a back shift on a view camera.
My observations:
1. The Mamiya lens is sharper, both at the center and at the edges, more contrasty than the Hartblei, and the color is consistent with other Mamiya lenses, both AF and manual.
2. The Mamiya has a greater shift range -- 16mm vs. 12mm.
3. The Hartblei tilts whereas the Mamiya doesn't.
4. The Mamiya lens has a scale that shows how far the lens is shifted, whereas the Hartblei does not.
5. The Mamiya lens is lighter and easier to use.
6. It's very combersome using the tilt when taking a left and then a right shift photo for panoramas on the Hartblei, as you've got to completely rotate the lens to shift to the opposing side. The tilt has to be reversed also and to further complicate matters, the tilt knob does not have any markings. The Mamiya also requires rotation to shift to the opposing side, althought it does not have a tilt function.
7. The Hartblei is fine for single frame captures where PC and tilt focus adjustments are required.
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http://www.pauck.de/marco/photo/stuff/kiev...ev_fisheye.html (http://www.pauck.de/marco/photo/stuff/kiev_fisheye/kiev_fisheye.html)
There is an interesting article on an exotic lens that fits the 645, the 3.5/30 mm Fisheye Kiev/Zodiak/Arsat.
It seams to be a reasonably sharp lens designed for 6x6 cold war fighter jets and it is a non-circular fish eye.
It could be interesting to have in the camera bag (or Pelican case) and shoot first and de-fisheye digitally later.
I may try getting one of this here in the city to see if it has the wright stuff of CCCP..
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I have the 24mm Mamiya fisheye on the kodak pro back. The final image after de-fish is about 20mm. Definately wider than my 24mm on canon.
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rueylon:
I wonder if the de-eyed image is as good as that of a non fisheye one. The lens I'm considering is so inexpensive that it is worth getting it and test it after. I think that it could be used along side a 35mm and 45mm.
I don't know if having a Mamiya Shift 50mm is useful considering that with the P25 is only about 30mm (35mm equiv.) but since it can also be found for about $600 it is on my wish list...
The other one is the Mamiya 28mm http://www.mamiya.com/assets/pdfs/645AFDII/lens_28_img.jpg (http://www.mamiya.com/assets/pdfs/645AFDII/lens_28_img.jpg)
due -- I hope -- this year.