Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: Tony B. on December 04, 2006, 09:32:50 pm
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Hi, my name is Tony. This might be a long story but please read on. I bought my 1st p&s digital camera in 2002 and not to far after that I bought an Epson Photo 890 printer. Late in 2002 I decided to make calendars (year 2003) for gifts for relatives and made some using OEM ink. That ended up being very expensive (to me) with ink running approx. $1 for an 8x10. With the paper, ink, binding I think they ran between $20 and $25 per calendar. Started reserching and found out about CIS systems. Bought a CIS system for the printer and the following year (2004) the price for calendars dropped because ink went from $1 per page to around 5 cents per page. I also enjoyed printing more because the cost was so much less. I would print photo's just to see how they looked. That got me through the year 2005. I then bought a Canon i960 and instead of CIS just used refillable cartridges. Ink costs were still low enough for me to continue enjoying printing. Because the i960 was so much faster than the Epson the Epson was no longer used and finally the clogs were not clearable and was tossed . I have used the Canon i960 for 2006 calendars and when starting the 2007 calendars I started having printhead clogging issues. I bought a Canon ip6000d as a backup just in time (because it used the same ink cartridges) and used that printer for the 2007 year calendars. This year I have done approx 40 calendars with 13 photo's each. with print issues and reprints I have printed over 600 8x10's.
So, now I started reading about this Canon IPF5000 printer and it seems that ink costs are very low (close to my refillable dye ink system). It would be nice to have pictures that relatives could pull off the calendar and hang/frame if they want but the dye ink photo's would fade during the month hanging.
Because of the rebate going on it peaked my interest about getting this printer. I would not think about a 13" wide format printer because of ink costs.
Anyways, thanks for reading on my printing life and now I have a few questions.
First I use inexpensive paper (Kirkland professional glossy paper 8.5" x 11") to keep calendar costs down.
1-Has anyone used the inexpensive papers on there IPF5000 with good results?
The way I print (at this time) it might take years before all cartridges need replaced for the 1st time (according to LL update on ink usage)
2-Does there seem to be an in printer shelf life for pigment inks?
3-What is the maintenance cartridge for?
Well, thats it for now. If I get the printer I will post about my experiences of going from a small format home printer to a much larger format and much different user interface.
Oh, for now I use Qimage to print. I also now have an 8mp DSLR. I know this printer is much more than I need at the time but maybe I will grow into it and start printing larger. Again, at this time I am looking at this printer for low cost OEM pigment ink use on lesser grade paper than most of you.
Tony B.
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Your story is pretty typical for any hobbyist in any discipline. You get a cheap gadget thinking it'll do just fine. When you realize it won't, you get a better one but still chimp on spending money. This repeats until you've spent twice the money buying the end-all printer in the first place would've cost.
If it's any consolation I'm in the same boat (from Pixma ip3000 to i9900 and now considering the ipf5000).
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Feppe, I have been completely satisfied with the route I have taken up till now. The printers I have used have treated me well. At this time I am just looking into the low ink cost (pigment OEM) of a printer like this. I do not really need the ability to print 17" wide prints at this time but I will not buy a 13" printer because of ink costs, using OEM pigment inks.
I know it seems kind of ridiculous to buy a $1500 printer to save money on ink but to me its the only way to go if you want to stick with OEM inks.
Did you use OEM ink with your i9900? Because for me to enjoy printing I could not use OEM ink on a consumer printer because of costs.
Another question that people can guess at. Any idea on printer life? Will it last 5+ years. I know its a new model but how long have people had there large format Epsons/Canons that are still running good.
Tony B.
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Tony B.,
I have several printers including the iPF5000. I also have a Canon i9900 (had two until just recently).
The iPF5000 is a wonderful printer IMO, in spite of the fact that the software and UI feels "rushed to market". I don't regret buying it in anyway, though I've not had it for long. The prints are wonderful if one takes steps to learn what to feed this printer.
All that being said, I would question the choice of a pigment ink printer for calendars, such as the iPF5000 or any number of others, because pigment inks tend to mar much more easily than dye based inks. This is particularly true in satin and gloss finished papers IMO.
I make note cards on the Canon i9900 and they are very durable. In contrast, I pulled a test print which was printed on the iPF5000 out from under a box of 11x17 paper and it scratched noticeably across the surface. The box on top was perhaps half full. I was being lazy and the print was a "throw away" anyway, but this is just an example of how pigment inks differ. Prints done on the i9900 can be drug out from this sort of thing and not show marks at all. Dye based inks tend to be more durable against scuffs and scratches.
I'm not saying that the Canon iPF5000 would be a bad choice, just suggesting a bit of caution regarding durability of pigment inks if you think that's an issue with your calendars. This might be especially important if one uses third party (non-Canon) papers.
I think I have some Kirkland paper around here and can make a print for the purpose of abusing it a bit, in order to see if it's an issue. But perhaps durability of the surface isn't really an issue and I'm over thinking things.
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Dale
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I've been using Canon inks as my volume is quite low. I think I'll stick with them as I don't want to waste time fiddling with profiles. Besides, if my printing volume goes up drastically that will be the final impetus to get the ipf5000.
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Dale, thank for the information, I did not realize that the prints were not as durable. I could guess that on matte paper they might be? I would appreciate it if you would try a print using the Kirkland paper. Also, if you do let me know if it is the made in USA or made in Switzerland paper.
I might have to take some paper to Pictureline or Inkjetart and see if they will print a couple samples off for me.
Also what do you mean by "The prints are wonderful if one takes steps to learn what to feed this printer."? Do you mean the paper or the paper settings.
Thanks for your reply
Tony B.
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Dale, thank for the information, I did not realize that the prints were not as durable. I could guess that on matte paper they might be? I would appreciate it if you would try a print using the Kirkland paper. Also, if you do let me know if it is the made in USA or made in Switzerland paper.
I might have to take some paper to Pictureline or Inkjetart and see if they will print a couple samples off for me.
Also what do you mean by "The prints are wonderful if one takes steps to learn what to feed this printer."? Do you mean the paper or the paper settings.
Thanks for your reply
Tony B.
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Hi Tony,
I'll be glad to run a print on the Kirkland paper and give it the ol' scratch and bend test. You should keep it mind that I don't intend to use this paper with the iPF5000 and won't know the exact best paper settings for the paper. I'll also scratch a Canon Photo Paper Plus Glossy page to see how it compares. The box of Kirkland paper that I have is marked "Made in Switzerland".
If you are close to Pictureline or IJA you may benefit from seeing the printer and it's process in person as part of your decision process. I bought my machine from Ken at Pictureline, but I looked at the printer's physical attributes at the Canon Service Center in Bangkok before ordering it.
In my comment: "The prints are wonderful if one takes steps to learn what to feed this printer" I meant that printer really makes beautiful prints if one takes the time to work in a color-managed workflow, choosing good profiles, etc, and otherwise preparing the files in the best ways appropriate for the desired outcome. I should also add that this printer will also produce "good" prints without the meticulous preparation described. One just needs to find the paper settings that work for the media. Obviously, these qualitative terms are subjective, but I was impressed with the first couple of prints off of my machine (on Canon paper) with which I did no special prep to the files – just exported to the plug-in and printed.
Dale
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I printed a few prints using the Kirkland Professional Glossy paper at the request of Tony B. and I'd like to clarify, vis-a-vis my early post regarding "scratchability". While not as durable as a dye-based ink print, the prints on the Kirkland (rumored to be an Ilford paper) is more durable than some of the other papers I had tried in the iPF5000.
So far, among the papers that I have on hand, the paper most sensitive to mars and scratches is the Red River Polar Satin. RR UltraPro Satin and Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl are better. As is IJA Micro Ceramic Luster and Canon's PP Plus Glossy. All of these are softer than images printed on the Canon i9900 (to be expected), though the RR Polar Satin is softest in my comparison. I didn't "scratch and gouge" at any other papers as the OP requested info re. the Kirkland paper as an economical glossy paper.
Tony, you may find the results durable enough for your needs if you choose to use the 5000 with the Kirkland paper.
I'll mail these test prints to you as promised in the PM.
Dale
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You might consider the HP9180. I own an iPF5000 but spent this weekend helping my brother set up a 9180. because of the smaller size, lower initial cost, borderless printing and your typical use I would give it consideration.
Marc
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Marc, the problem with the 9180 is the same with the Epson 2400 and Canon pro9000 (and most likely the pro9500) is the ink costs would be to much for me. I would buy the larger printer because it would bring down the ink costs. I am waiting for the prints from Dale to see how they look.
Thanks for the information though. Depending on the prints my decision might change towards the i9900 because I can use the inks I am using now, but lose the fade resistance of the Pigment printers.
Dale, if you see this, what numbers did the print log give you for ink usage when you printed on the kirkland paper (guessing 8x10 on the 8.5x11 page).
Thanks everyone so far. It is still a very hard decision because I am not using a printer to make money with. Maybe if I get the IPF5000, or another 17" wide or larger printer I might have to start thinking about it.
Tony B.
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Dale, if you see this, what numbers did the print log give you for ink usage when you printed on the kirkland paper (guessing 8x10 on the 8.5x11 page).
Tony B.
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Tony,
Everything is covered up again (with drop cloths) as I get back to some remodel work, so I can't really conveniently get it right now. I can tell you that this printer is pretty frugal.
I still would not print calendar photos on it because of handling issues, but that's just me. I just drug the back of my index fingernail across a print that I did yesterday (on the Kirkland paper I did for you) and it left deep streak and an accumulation of ink at the end. Skin side of fingers aren't bad, it's the stuff with a bit of hardness to them that leaves obvious marks. Maybe I'm being picky, but just felt I should mention this characteristic of pigment inks and smooth papers.
I'll send some for you to pick at after they're fully dry.
Dale
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Marc, the problem with the 9180 is the same with the Epson 2400 and Canon pro9000 (and most likely the pro9500) is the ink costs would be to much for me. I would buy the larger printer because it would bring down the ink costs. I am waiting for the prints from Dale to see how they look.
Thanks for the information though. Depending on the prints my decision might change towards the i9900 because I can use the inks I am using now, but lose the fade resistance of the Pigment printers.
Dale, if you see this, what numbers did the print log give you for ink usage when you printed on the kirkland paper (guessing 8x10 on the 8.5x11 page).
Thanks everyone so far. It is still a very hard decision because I am not using a printer to make money with. Maybe if I get the IPF5000, or another 17" wide or larger printer I might have to start thinking about it.
Tony B.
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You might be supprised with the more ink colors you have the less ink per print they use. So if the cartriges last for 6 months with your use or say one season of calendars, in the HP (at a reasonable price) is it worth having the iPF5000 inks sitting in your printer for several years? Also the iPF 5000 is 3 times the size of the HP! dont get me wrong I love my iPF 5000.
Marc
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Marc, that has been one of my concerns about how long the ink would be in the printer (also printer life-can it go 5+years). I recently started going to local photo clubs (ok once so far) seeing if anyone would be interested in being able to have larger prints done for not much more than ink/paper costs (to keep my printer running more often). None of my friends are into photography or printing as much as I am.
I thought I mentioned in my first post about the cost I would have had if using OEM Canon BCI-6 on my printing this past month or so. I would guess I would have spent more than $1000 on BCI-6 cartridges printing the 600+ 8x10's that I have done. Because of the refilling I do I have spent just over $100 for supplies.
I have heard that the extra colors in printers (red/green/etc) do not get used as much as the others and would probably not add much to the amount spent on ink.
I would guess that the Epson 2400, Canon pro9000/9500 and hp 9180 would all be close in ink costs and be the same or more than the BCI-6 ink because the cartridges cost is more. Looking at my refilling kit it I have nine 4 oz bottles if ink (125ml) I will go through 8 1/2 of them (I think I will have 1/2 bottle of yellow left)
That will basically be 8x130 (1040ml) or approx $600 if IPF5000 ink (that is if the IPF uses the same amount of ink per print as the Canon i960/ip6000d)
OK, that number ($600) if even close to proper calculation might even be to much for me. Will be interesting to see ink usage numbers from the prints Dale did.
But, still a lot less than the smaller format printers using OEM inks.
I am not worried about the space needed for the printer, I have a room set up at my house for my printing that would fit the bigger printers.
My biggest concerns is the low print usage from January-October, how long ink will last in the printer and how long the printer will last before a major repair (guessing print head issues first).
Thanks everyone for there input so far
Tony B.
I believe with ink costs I will either get Canon IPF5000 (or Epson 3800) if I want to go with pigment inks or I might have to start my larger printing with the Canon i9900 with refillable cartridges.
You might be supprised with the more ink colors you have the less ink per print they use. So if the cartriges last for 6 months with your use or say one season of calendars, in the HP (at a reasonable price) is it worth having the iPF5000 inks sitting in your printer for several years? Also the iPF 5000 is 3 times the size of the HP! dont get me wrong I love my iPF 5000.
Marc
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I am going crazy trying to figure out ink costs.
My quick calculation was based on my ink usage of my canon dye based printers (ip6000d and i960). I used 950 ml of ink printing 600 8x10's.
If I figured the IPF5000 would use the same 950 ml it would cost $549.
all figures approximate.
Now, if I figure from Luminous Landscapes 6 month update I get completely
different numbers.
First on 75% coverage of 11x17 averaging .4 ml of ink I came up with $.0016 per sq. inch
2nd on 80% coverage of 17x22 that was using 1.2 ml of ink I came up with $.002 per sq. inch
Both of these numbers are close
Now if I use my 600 8x10's that is 48000 sq. inches using the LL numbers I get $77 using the 11x17 numbers and $96 using the 17x22 numbers.
Is there that much different in ink usage between a pigment ink printer and a dye based printer
or is the difference in the paper since I print on glossy papers and I would guess that LL uses fine art papers.
or does Marc's mentioning of more ink colors using less ink also apply to this.
Any ideas?
Tony B.
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I do not have the details to quantify or reference this -
I believe matte papers and glossy papers ink use will be different - and of course over time/volume any "small" difference will add up. And this does not even touch upon personal differences of saturation and on and on...
I expect the best we will come with is broad range of ink use for particular paper types - which will still be a useful thing. I go back and forth a lot between matte and glossy so not having yet develd into the report part of the printer software, I am not yet aware of how easy or hard analyzing the ink use maybe. Thanks to all those that are analyzing! I will get to it.
Gary
I am going crazy trying to figure out ink costs.
My quick calculation was based on my ink usage of my canon dye based printers (ip6000d and i960). I used 950 ml of ink printing 600 8x10's.
If I figured the IPF5000 would use the same 950 ml it would cost $549.
all figures approximate.
Now, if I figure from Luminous Landscapes 6 month update I get completely
different numbers.
First on 75% coverage of 11x17 averaging .4 ml of ink I came up with $.0016 per sq. inch
2nd on 80% coverage of 17x22 that was using 1.2 ml of ink I came up with $.002 per sq. inch
Both of these numbers are close
Now if I use my 600 8x10's that is 48000 sq. inches using the LL numbers I get $77 using the 11x17 numbers and $96 using the 17x22 numbers.
Is there that much different in ink usage between a pigment ink printer and a dye based printer
or is the difference in the paper since I print on glossy papers and I would guess that LL uses fine art papers.
or does Marc's mentioning of more ink colors using less ink also apply to this.
Any ideas?
Tony B.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=89215\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I am going crazy trying to figure out ink costs.
My quick calculation was based on my ink usage of my canon dye based printers (ip6000d and i960). I used 950 ml of ink printing 600 8x10's.
If I figured the IPF5000 would use the same 950 ml it would cost $549.
all figures approximate.
Now, if I figure from Luminous Landscapes 6 month update I get completely
different numbers.
First on 75% coverage of 11x17 averaging .4 ml of ink I came up with $.0016 per sq. inch
2nd on 80% coverage of 17x22 that was using 1.2 ml of ink I came up with $.002 per sq. inch
Both of these numbers are close
Now if I use my 600 8x10's that is 48000 sq. inches using the LL numbers I get $77 using the 11x17 numbers and $96 using the 17x22 numbers.
Is there that much different in ink usage between a pigment ink printer and a dye based printer
or is the difference in the paper since I print on glossy papers and I would guess that LL uses fine art papers.
or does Marc's mentioning of more ink colors using less ink also apply to this.
Any ideas?
Tony B.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=89215\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Tony,
I recently received the ipf5000, and I have researched the costs involved to operate this printer. Cost was not my primary concern, quality was.
That said, it’s still looks pretty economic to operate. While there are a lot of variables involved I have used the ink consumption data from Red River, and my own print logs to create an Excel print cost analysis sheet.
I believe that while my numbers are admittedly conservative they will be closer to the real world than some theoretical number. I have added 10% waste factor for ink, and roll paper. Remember there are head cleaning routines, and operator errors, etc.
I calculate an 8X10 on Ilford Classic smooth would nun about $1.20 each. This is based on a paper cost of $0.70 per 8.5 X 11 sheet and ink costs of $0.50. I calculate ink costs to be $0.0063 per square inch.
If you use roll paper you can get two prints per linear foot and reduce your costs to about $0.90 per 8 X 10 print.
Don’t forget to amortize the cost of the printer. This could range from several dollars per print to well under a dollar per print based on volume.
Also you may find a need for a good rotary trimmer to trim those 8 X 10’s to the exact size. Again, more $$
Based on this, if we use $2000 for the cost of the printer, and amortize over two years, with an estimated 1200 prints per year for those two years. Your cost per 8 X 10 looks more like $1.73 each. The first year cost will be more like $2.56 each.
Where the large format printers come into their own is with the larger prints. Outside labs will run about $18.00 for a 16 X 24 on a standard satin / gloss paper. I calculate my cost at $4.40 without equipment amortization. Now your paying for the printer.
I hope this gives you some food for thought.
Sam
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That said, it’s still looks pretty economic to operate. While there are a lot of variables involved I have used the ink consumption data from Red River, and my own print logs to create an Excel print cost analysis sheet.
I believe that while my numbers are admittedly conservative they will be closer to the real world than some theoretical number. I have added 10% waste factor for ink, and roll paper. Remember there are head cleaning routines, and operator errors, etc.
I calculate an 8X10 on Ilford Classic smooth would nun about $1.20 each. This is based on a paper cost of $0.70 per 8.5 X 11 sheet and ink costs of $0.50. I calculate ink costs to be $0.0063 per square inch.
These cost estimates seem to vary all over the map. From the very limited printing I have done (so far :-), I would estimate ink costs at about 1-1.2 ml per square foot. At 58 cents per ml of ink, this would be 58-68 cents per square foot. Add 10% and you have 64-75 cents per square foot. Again, this is for ink only. An 8X10 would then run 35-43 cents for ink only.
Michael Reichmann had a MUCH lower figure, about half of my figures. Don't know where he got it. I would be interested to see your spreadsheet and detailed assumptions, for possible addition to the Wiki.
--John
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These cost estimates seem to vary all over the map. From the very limited printing I have done (so far :-), I would estimate ink costs at about 1-1.2 ml per square foot. At 58 cents per ml of ink, this would be 58-68 cents per square foot. Add 10% and you have 64-75 cents per square foot. Again, this is for ink only. An 8X10 would then run 35-43 cents for ink only.
Michael Reichmann had a MUCH lower figure, about half of my figures. Don't know where he got it. I would be interested to see your spreadsheet and detailed assumptions, for possible addition to the Wiki.
--John
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John,
Thanks for your reply. My numbers and your numbers are not that far off. Please note my cost sheet is designed for my use, and is intended to be conservative. While not totally worst case, these are cost figures that I can rely on, for low production custom printing.
If I use your high-end figure of $0.75 per square foot for ink only. (I think some of the differences might be based on highest quality print, 12 pass, versus lowest, 6 pass printing), That would be $0.41 per 8 X 10. (8’ X 10” equals 0.55 square feet). At $0.75 per sq ft multiplied by .55 would give us $0.42. If I add 10% I am at about $0.46 for ink. Add in the paper and we are at looking at $0.91 per 8X10. Our numbers look the same to me.
I learned a long time ago not to use best-case scenario data. It’s always too low.
I wanted to see how my anticipated real world cost would compare to out sourcing. I have found using my conservative calculations that I can print a 16X24 at home, and my consumables costs will be 70% to 75% lower than outsourcing.
The Excel spreadsheet is no work of art, but if you would like to look at it let me know the best way to send it. E-mail, or should I attach it here?
Sam
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I just made 2 prints on the iPF5000 (glossy photo) both 11 x 17 (image aprox 10 x 15) about a square foot. One almost white .3 ml of ink and one almost black 1.5 ml of ink I'd use an average of .9ml per print so at full retail for the inks I get ink costs at about 55 cents per square foot. About 1700 11 x 17 prints per set of inks.
Marc
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Thanks for the information Marc, doing a quick calculation a 10x15 print is 150 sq. inches at 55 cents, that puts cost on this small sample at $.004 per sq. inch (rounded up). So an 8x10 is 80 sq inches 80x.004= 32 cents. 600 8x10's would be .32x600= $192.
So with this small sample it would be $192 of ink for 600 8x10's.
I know this is very subjective and depends on paper, coverage, photo's being printed and so on.
For my uses I could handle the $192 cost in ink. I tried calling Inkjetart and they do not have a Canon IPF5000 at there store right now and Pictureline thought they would be to busy because of the holiday for me to go down there with 5-10 pictures (files) and have them printed out 8x10 on letter size Photo Paper Pro so I could get the information off of the status monitor to see how much ink a small run of my photos on similar paper that I print on (same paper setting) would be. Oh well.
Quick run down (strickly ink costs) for 600 8x10 prints
Low side Luminous Landscape figures $74-$96-----$.002 per sq. inch
middle-Marc's figures ------------------$192---------$.004 per sq. inch
High-Sam's figures----------------------$276---------$.0058 per sq. inch
These are from me calculating what has been posted and there could be errors
Thanks again everyone so far for the information you have provided
Tony B.
I just made 2 prints on the iPF5000 (glossy photo) both 11 x 17 (image aprox 10 x 15) about a square foot. One almost white .3 ml of ink and one almost black 1.5 ml of ink I'd use an average of .9ml per print so at full retail for the inks I get ink costs at about 55 cents per square foot. About 1700 11 x 17 prints per set of inks.
Marc
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As far as amateur/non-techie with lots of time to spend on this printer - buy an epson 1800 or hp9180 and you'll be happy.
In fact, if you just print color, look at the HP DJ series.
the iPF5000 seems like it has great potential, but the fact that it needs a wiki should tell you all you need to know about the "ease of use"
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As far as amateur/non-techie with lots of time to spend on this printer - buy an epson 1800 or hp9180 and you'll be happy.
In fact, if you just print color, look at the HP DJ series.
the iPF5000 seems like it has great potential, but the fact that it needs a wiki should tell you all you need to know about the "ease of use"
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=89340\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hello,
The Canon iPF5000 is not a printer that is difficult to understand.
What are you trying to say?
If there is Wiki concerning the iPF5000 it makes it easier to use,there is plenty of inforemation on the web about this printer it is reliable,easier to maintain and once you learn how to use this printer produces better prints than other 17" inkjet printers.
It's insulting to use terms such as amatuer or non/techie this printer has a mystique built around it becauese it threatens the cosy world of Epson printers,continous comparison between the two surely should be over after six months since iPf5000 introduction.[ and if I had the money would buy the new larger 12 ink HP printer- one tries to use best product on the market in printing]
This printer is not difficult to comprehend with so much inforemation on the webb and is an economical dependable 12 ink printer that is developing its own character and reputation because of its solid build quality producing outstading A2 iknjet prints.
Bye
Martin
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It also huge! I was looking at the Canon and the Epson 3800 and the Canon is literally the size of my car's dashboard. I don't drive a Prius.
Eric
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Naisan, as mentioned in previous posts. I would buy the IPF5000 (or Epson/HP 17") printer because of ink savings over time. My opinion is if you have the space and you do any amount of printing then the larger printers have a much lower ink cost. I do not need the large format printing ability at this time but maybe I would grow into it. If I do not get the Canon/Epson/HP larger format printer then I will get the i9900 for the ink costs (3rd party inks) and live with the fading issues until I have a greater need for pigment ink.
Tony
As far as amateur/non-techie with lots of time to spend on this printer - buy an epson 1800 or hp9180 and you'll be happy.
In fact, if you just print color, look at the HP DJ series.
the iPF5000 seems like it has great potential, but the fact that it needs a wiki should tell you all you need to know about the "ease of use"
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First, I would like to thank Dale for printing out a few prints on the IPF5000 using Kirkland paper and sending them to me.
Anyways, I recieved the prints from Dale, they were test files from InkJetArt.
I then printed the same test file on my ip6000d and Kirkland paper so I could compare durability. Yes, the IPF5000 (most likely all pigment based printers) print did show scratches (using fingernail) a little more than the ip6000d but my opinion is that they would be fine for calendar use. The IPF5000 prints yellow changed color when scratching the ip6000d did not. But unless they were purposely scrached or placed under an item that could scratch I do not think it is an issue.
So, only thing left for me to figure out is still ink costs. I know we have some ink cost samples but I am looking for more. I am trying to find a printer local that I can print a run of 10-12 8x10's (color landscape photo's) on Canon Photo Paper Pro or Kirkland paper and see what the ink usage average would be on that type of print run.
Thanks everyone so far. If ink costs fall around the $.004 per square inch or less than I could afford what I use the printer for. Any more than that and I will probably put this type of printer off until my needs change and get the i9900 until then.
Tony B.
Tony B.,
All that being said, I would question the choice of a pigment ink printer for calendars, such as the iPF5000 or any number of others, because pigment inks tend to mar much more easily than dye based inks. This is particularly true in satin and gloss finished papers IMO.
I think I have some Kirkland paper around here and can make a print for the purpose of abusing it a bit, in order to see if it's an issue. But perhaps durability of the surface isn't really an issue and I'm over thinking things.
--
Dale
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While I agree ink and paper costs can add up to significant dollars, it seems you may be over analyzing these costs in making your decision. I've read through your posts and it seems your printing demands are fairly moderate. The iPF5000 is a professional printer, designed to be used regularly.
What is the shelf life of an iPF5000 cartridge once installed in the printer. I just purchased the Epson 3800 which uses 80ml cartridges at a cost between $45 - $60 per cartridge, and are expected to be usable for 6 months after installation. Are you certain you will use all the ink in the even larger Canon cartridges before their usable life expires?
Have you compared the prints from the iPF5000 with other manufacturers. I like Canon printers as well, but I've found each manufacturer has it's strengths and weaknesses. Given you have been exposed to pritns mostly from Canon dye inks, and 3rd party inks you may find Canon pigment inks to produce undesireable results.
The research before the purchase is always the most fun. I'm merely suggesting you take into account some other factors than the cost of ink in making your decision.
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jpara thanks for the reply. I have not looked into the other printers much. The only one I might be interested in is the Epson 3800. But as far as searching goes it seems the Canon is better on ink. And yes, I keep forgeting about shelf life.
I am not sure if I would use all the ink up before the in printer ink life is over. It seems people have gone over a year with the Epsons. I would also have to start asking friends if they want any prints and have been checking out local camera clubs to see if anyone would be interested in having prints done (for not much above ink/paper costs-at least at this time) because I would need to do something more to use the ink.
I have glanced at prints from other printers that are out on a shelf at Pictureline. Again, they all look good. I do not think I would be dissatisfied with any of the printers for print quality.
It looks like a found a source that I can go and print a small run of 10-12 8x10's to get an ink usage indication. After that I will have to think more on the shelf life even though I would guess all manufacturer specs would be low (6 months). Maybe I will be the person in one or two years to give better indication of in printer ink life.
Also, unless I discover something unexpected, ink cost is my primary concern (ok, right next to shelf life). Great, I only spent $200 in ink this year -To bad I need $900 in new cartridges because of shelf life . If I can not come up with any better answers to shelf life and I do a run of prints and the ink usage is within my range I do not know what I will do. I am trying not to rush into this but if I do not get it by the time the rebate ends I will not get it until it sells at the rebate price or they offer another rebate in the future.
Anyways, thanks for the input. Hopefully Thursday or Friday I will do a small run of 8x10's (color on glossy paper) and post the results. If the usage is to high then the printer will not fall into my budget.
Tony B.
While I agree ink and paper costs can add up to significant dollars, it seems you may be over analyzing these costs in making your decision. I've read through your posts and it seems your printing demands are fairly moderate. The iPF5000 is a professional printer, designed to be used regularly.
What is the shelf life of an iPF5000 cartridge once installed in the printer. I just purchased the Epson 3800 which uses 80ml cartridges at a cost between $45 - $60 per cartridge, and are expected to be usable for 6 months after installation. Are you certain you will use all the ink in the even larger Canon cartridges before their usable life expires?
Have you compared the prints from the iPF5000 with other manufacturers. I like Canon printers as well, but I've found each manufacturer has it's strengths and weaknesses. Given you have been exposed to pritns mostly from Canon dye inks, and 3rd party inks you may find Canon pigment inks to produce undesireable results.
The research before the purchase is always the most fun. I'm merely suggesting you take into account some other factors than the cost of ink in making your decision.
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Hello,
Shelf life for inks with the CanoniPF5000 is printed on the side of packaging and running from date of purchase Nov'06 is 18 months.
Facts relating to my purchase full set of inks beginning last month.
Expiring date is 04-2008.
Purchase date01-2006.
Martin Mitchell
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Hello,
Shelf life for inks with the CanoniPF5000 is printed on the side of packaging and running from date of purchase Nov'06 is 18 months.
Facts relating to my purchase full set of inks beginning last month.
Expiring date is 04-2008.
Purchase date01-2006.
Martin Mitchell
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Sorry,should read.
Purchase date10-2006
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That is shelf life unopened. How long does Canon claim their inks last once the cartridge is installed in the printer?
Hello,
Shelf life for inks with the CanoniPF5000 is printed on the side of packaging and running from date of purchase Nov'06 is 18 months.
Facts relating to my purchase full set of inks beginning last month.
Expiring date is 04-2008.
Purchase date01-2006.
Martin Mitchell
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That is shelf life unopened. How long does Canon claim their inks last once the cartridge is installed in the printer?
I asked this very question of Canon support. They had no information, and weren't even able to give me the shelf life unopened figure quoted in this thread.
--John
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I would not discourage someone from buying IPF5000 because of poor documentation. Wiki website is no different than yahoo group forums.....exchange of ideas and information to better utililize the printer. Look at the good side of Canon's poor documentation....we will all be a bit 'computer' and 'printer' smarter.
As far as amateur/non-techie with lots of time to spend on this printer - buy an epson 1800 or hp9180 and you'll be happy.
In fact, if you just print color, look at the HP DJ series.
the iPF5000 seems like it has great potential, but the fact that it needs a wiki should tell you all you need to know about the "ease of use"
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I would think given it is a pigment ink like Epson the opened shelf life would be close to the same.
I asked this very question of Canon support. They had no information, and weren't even able to give me the shelf life unopened figure quoted in this thread.
--John
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I would think given it is a pigment ink like Epson the opened shelf life would be close to the same.
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Hello,
Please,could you be sensible and use verifiable facts,your statement is misleading because we are dealing with Canon inks NOT Epson.
Let us surmise this point of ink longevity.
The shelf life is 18 months and it's a prussurised sealed ink feed system on the iPF5000 and ink is agitated before going through printheads so one might guess that usability of the ink is 18 months.
Also,if one purchases a larger printer than previous surely human inclination is to make more use of it and to show how it works to friends.Only buy best equipment on the market at time of purchase is the advice given by individuals with more experiance in printing and computer game.Life is to short for regrets.
Martin Mitchell
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Ok, for anyone not reading the Canon IPF5000 wiki.
I decided to purchase the IPF5000, I ordered it on a Monday and it arrived two days later on Wednesday. Not to bad right before Christmas.
Anyways, I decided to start setting it up that night. I installed the printheads, then the ink cartridges, then the paper cassette with paper in it so it would run the printhead alignment. In the process of the printhead alignment I received a right side print head error. Following the manual it recommended to remove and reinstall the printhead. So I did that, that dropped the ink for the right side printhead down to 20% (left side at 60%).
Well, that did not fix the issue so I had to wait until Thursday morning to call Canon. After talking with Canon with my concern the said they would send me out a new printhead. I also asked if they would cover the ink loss during replacement and the csr said they would check into it.
When arriving home on Friday night my printhead was here. Opened the box to the relief of a printhead and the needed ink cartridges for that printhead.
So back at the printer I start installing the new printhead. The printer does whatever it does to clean the printhead of ink. Says to replace printhead and I open it up and replace the printhead.
It then starts to purge the printhead with ink and now it gives me a Full maintenance cartridge error. Oh well, will have to wait another day to finish setting it up. Hopefully I will be able to print this weekend.
Those maintenance cartridges sure do not last long. Even though it went through the initial charge of ink and two printhead replacement processes. Not sure how much ink all that used but I would suspect that once I replace the maintenance cartridge it will ask me to replace all the ink cartridges for that printhead. Only time will tell.
I did load all the software and drivers in the meantime. I will also pick up some paper 13x19, 17x22 and maybe a roll of something when I go get the maintenance cartridge.
Tony B.
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It then starts to purge the printhead with ink and now it gives me a Full maintenance cartridge error. Oh well, will have to wait another day to finish setting it up. Hopefully I will be able to print this weekend.
Those maintenance cartridges sure do not last long. Even though it went through the initial charge of ink and two printhead replacement processes. Not sure how much ink all that used but I would suspect that once I replace the maintenance cartridge it will ask me to replace all the ink cartridges for that printhead. Only time will tell.
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The activities you are going through are with the print head replacements are probably responsible for filling the maintenance cartridge. I've been through the starter ink set and am well into a full set of cartridges and my maintenace cartridge is at 40%.