Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: robert zimmerman on December 04, 2006, 09:01:22 am
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Just received a news letter from Sinar stating that they are, as of now, the exclusive distributor of all Rollei products in Germany and Austria. The HY6 can now be ordered through Sinar.
Also, if ordered by Dec. 31st, "Early Bird" orderers will be given a free Rolleiflex 6008 AF and 80mm PQS which will be exchanged for the HY6 2. Quarter 2007.
PROMOTION
(gültig bis 31. Dezember 2006)
Sinar Hy6 "Early Bird" Angebot
Bestelle jetzt eine Sinar Hy6 mit 80 mm Optik (Schneider AF Xenotar 2.8/80 PQS) - und erhalte vorerst eine Rolleiflex 6008 AF*.
Gratis-Austausch der Rolleiflex 6008 AF durch ein Sinar Hy6 Kameragehäuse (geplant ca. 2. Quartal 2007) - oder sie behalten die Rolleiflex 6008 AF als Backup nach Erhalt der Sinar Hy6 zu einem sehr attraktiven Preis.
Questions:
Why is Rollei giving Sinar the "exclusive" distribution rights?
Is Sinar selling the Hy6 only in a Sinar mount?
Will the Rollei "Early Bird" cameras be offered with adapters for non Sinar DB's?
Where does this leave Leaf (Phaseone) with the HY6?
Will Leaf (or Calumet?) also be exclusively distributing the "Leaf" Hy6?
How will Leaf handle current Leaf back owners who are using other systems (Blad, Contax, etc.)?
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Is Sinar selling the Hy6 only in a Sinar mount?
The Hy6 has it's own mount and will be supported by Leaf, Sinar and probably Phase One in time. Only backs which are fairly uncertain are the Hasselblad backs.
Will the Rollei "Early Bird" cameras be offered with adapters for non Sinar DB's?
Phase and Leaf backs are not adaptable. They can only be swapped over for a new unit.
Where does this leave Leaf (Phaseone) with the HY6?
I expect they will both make backs available in Hy6 mount as soon as the Hy6 is released.
Was there no price attached to that offer?
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what about the Early Bird prices?
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This is what I recieved:
Promo Package Digital Bundles until Dec. 31st 2006:
Rollei 6008 AF*, Schneider AF Xenotar 2,8/80 PQS, Eyelike Precision M22, Adapter M22/Rollei: €19.920 - 30% Rebate = €13.900
Rollei 6008 AF*, Schneider AF Xenotar 2,8/80 PQS, Sinarback 54H (Firewire), Adapter Sinar FW/Rollei: €28.394 - 23% Rebate = €21.800
Rollei 6008 AF*, Schneider AF Xenotar 2,8/80 PQS, Sinarback 54M, Adapter Sinar M/Rollei: €21.326 - 22% Rebate = €16.700
Rollei 6008 AF*, Schneider AF Xenotar 2,8/80 PQS, Sinarback Emotion 75, Adapter Sinar Emo./Rollei: €31.200 - 27% Rebate = €22.800
*(inbegriffen Schachtsucher, Akku, Ladegerät, 6x6 cm Filmmagazin, Handgriff, Tragriemen)
These are the rebate prices that were included in the email. I'm just guessing that these prices are also part of the 6008AF loaner, Hy6 Trade in offer. It's not stated directly though.
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Official news here:
http://www.sinarcameras.com/ (http://www.sinarcameras.com/)
Digital bundles pdf below.
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Anyone know which of the big US dealers are Sinar distributors?
Official news here:
http://www.sinarcameras.com/ (http://www.sinarcameras.com/)
Digital bundles pdf below.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=88643\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Sinar Bron killed off most of their dealers in the US earlier this year. There are only 5 or 6 left, but the big one is Calumet (maybe soon the only one(?))... Fotocare in NYC is another one.
Anyone know which of the big US dealers are Sinar distributors?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=88653\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Strange that the e22 is missing from the packages.
I'm just guessing that these prices are also part of the 6008AF loaner, Hy6 Trade in offer. It's not stated directly though.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=88636\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Actually there is a message at the bottom of the PDF stating (in German) that these offers may not be combined with other offers.
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Anyone know which of the big US dealers are Sinar distributors?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=88653\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
William,
Where in the country are you located? I would be more than happy to direct you to dealer close to you.
Thanks,
Matt LaPointe
Regional Sales Manager
Sinar Bron Imaging
(219) 670-9905
mlapointe@sinarbron.com
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sinarback e22 is missing indeed!
any idea why? maybe its the only seller at the moment.
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Matt,
I'm in Cleveland, Ohio, U.S.A. Feel free to contact me offline at wmc@case.edu.
William,
Where in the country are you located? I would be more than happy to direct you to dealer close to you.
Thanks,
Matt LaPointe
Regional Sales Manager
Sinar Bron Imaging
(219) 670-9905
mlapointe@sinarbron.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=88668\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Matt,
I'm in Cleveland, Ohio, U.S.A. Feel free to contact me offline at wmc@case.edu.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=88794\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
William, I believe Dodd Camera in Cleveland IS distributer for Sinar. They are very good.
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Thanks. I knew Dodd's carries Phase, Leaf, Hassy, but wasn't sure if they handled Sinar.
William, I believe Dodd Camera in Cleveland IS distributer for Sinar. They are very good.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=88801\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I just talked to a sales person from the official sinar distributor here in switzerland.
she does not know anything about the package deal.
she was not interested at all helping me or try to figure out if this package deal will be available in switzerland at any time.
the only thing she was able to give me was the normal price of the backs (from the pricelist they shipped me last week)!
nice service !
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I just talked to a sales person from the official sinar distributor here in switzerland.
she does not know anything about the package deal.
she was not interested at all helping me or try to figure out if this package deal will be available in switzerland at any time.
the only thing she was able to give me was the normal price of the backs (from the pricelist they shipped me last week)!
nice service !
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=88983\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
dear Kendal,
there is of course a package including the eMotion 22, and all Sinar distributor (should) know this.
I don't know who you spoke to, but I would advice you to contact Sinar's sales manager for Switzerland by calling Sinar AG directly: please explain your case to him (or to another person there if he is out of office).
If you are wish you can also contact me offline at my email address.
thanks and best regards,
Thierry
Sinar AG
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Let's return to this early bird deal n the Hy6. So, you pay full price for the Hy6 now (whatever that price is) and get a Rollei 6008AF kit in the meantime. Then, when the Hy6 is available, you can return your 6008 and get the Hy6 kit at no additional charge, correct? Or, you can keep the 6008 and get the Hy6 as well, and you'll have to pay some additional "keep it" price (which we also don't know the amount of) correct?
Then, come second quarter 2007, you've got a Hy6 in your hands. Am I correct in understanding that the "Hy6" mount is univeral in the sense that the digital back makers who're on board will all be making their backs in Hy6-specific mounts? In other words, in doing the early bird deal, I don't need to decide which "flavor" of Hy6 I want (Phase, Leaf, Sinar, etc), because it will only come in one flavor? If that's true, though, then where do the dealer-branded mockups that we've seen pics of fit in? E.g., the Sinar Hy6, the Leaf AFi? Presumably, the Leaf AFi camera won't accept anything but Leaf backs, right? (Otherwise, what's the point of it being branded and marketed as the LEAF camera?) So how is that consistent with the "only one flavor of Hy6" hypothesis I've laid out? Furthermore, do we know whether the dealer-branded bundles will be less expensive that the Hy6+equivalent back separately? E.g., would the hypothetical "Phase One Hy6 45" be sold as a bundle that's less expensive than buying a Hy6 body and a Phase One P45 back separately?
The problem I'm seeing with the early bird deal is that there are too many unanswered questions at this point...Or at least too many qestions I don't know the answer to.
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Without knowing the details, it seems that we have a "conceptual shift" here in this camera.
First, it was goind to be a camera body made by F&H, then modified for each back, and sold under the name of each back maker. Leaf and Sinar liked that idea, and put their name on it. Attractive proposition at first.
Of course, with more reflection, they all probably realized that while that gave the back makers the assurance of having a camera body to take their back (good, as this is a source of concern, esp. if Hassy goes closed), it also put them peculiarly in the camera business. For example, do they warrant the bodies? Preferably no, but in this scenario, they would have their names on the front of the body.
So I suspect they are all moving toward having Rollei/F&H or Sinar putting their name on the front, and making a more universal, open adapter system on the back side of this camera body. This way, the back people stay in the back business, and the camera body people stay in theirs.
Of course, this leaves F&H in the awkward position of making a body and not sure about whose backs will be there. Assuming the backs show up (and they probably will), who handles distribution? If Sinar takes it on, they'll prefer to have their backs mounted with it (ala Hassy). F&H would prefer the largest success possible for the camera, and thus want the most open system.
If Sinar is generous (clever?) they'll keep it open as possible, but given their currrent pricing approaches, its not too likely that there will be "deals" with the other backs that undercut their own back/camera approach.
What we have here is a series of differing agendas, working themselves out in front of our eyes. They and we all want a system which will take differing backs. How we get there is a bit awkward.
Making a new body working with differing backs is difficult enough, but doable. The distribution side of this is where the wrinkle is - any back maker who distributes this kind of camera will have a bias toward their backs. If the distribution side looks more like Alpa (who don't have a bias to whose back or lens you put on their camera as long as it works), then we would all benefit.
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It will be very interesting to see what the financial force (Jenoptik) behind all this will do next.
They just stopped the transfer of their Sinar shares to Leica. I'm pretty sure they own large pieces F&H, Rollei and Sinar. So actually, in the case of Sinar, the name on the front is pretty much the name on the back. It would be a shame but something tells me Leaf may find themselves without a camera partner soon.
Without knowing the details, it seems that we have a "conceptual shift" here in this camera.
First, it was goind to be a camera body made by F&H, then modified for each back, and sold under the name of each back maker. Leaf and Sinar liked that idea, and put their name on it. Attractive proposition at first.
Of course, with more reflection, they all probably realized that while that gave the back makers the assurance of having a camera body to take their back (good, as this is a source of concern, esp. if Hassy goes closed), it also put them peculiarly in the camera business. For example, do they warrant the bodies? Preferably no, but in this scenario, they would have their names on the front of the body.
So I suspect they are all moving toward having Rollei/F&H or Sinar putting their name on the front, and making a more universal, open adapter system on the back side of this camera body. This way, the back people stay in the back business, and the camera body people stay in theirs.
Of course, this leaves F&H in the awkward position of making a body and not sure about whose backs will be there. Assuming the backs show up (and they probably will), who handles distribution? If Sinar takes it on, they'll prefer to have their backs mounted with it (ala Hassy). F&H would prefer the largest success possible for the camera, and thus want the most open system.
If Sinar is generous (clever?) they'll keep it open as possible, but given their currrent pricing approaches, its not too likely that there will be "deals" with the other backs that undercut their own back/camera approach.
What we have here is a series of differing agendas, working themselves out in front of our eyes. They and we all want a system which will take differing backs. How we get there is a bit awkward.
Making a new body working with differing backs is difficult enough, but doable. The distribution side of this is where the wrinkle is - any back maker who distributes this kind of camera will have a bias toward their backs. If the distribution side looks more like Alpa (who don't have a bias to whose back or lens you put on their camera as long as it works), then we would all benefit.
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Let's return to this early bird deal n the Hy6. So, you pay full price for the Hy6 now (whatever that price is) and get a Rollei 6008AF kit in the meantime. Then, when the Hy6 is available, you can return your 6008 and get the Hy6 kit at no additional charge, correct? Or, you can keep the 6008 and get the Hy6 as well, and you'll have to pay some additional "keep it" price (which we also don't know the amount of) correct?
Then, come second quarter 2007, you've got a Hy6 in your hands. Am I correct in understanding that the "Hy6" mount is univeral in the sense that the digital back makers who're on board will all be making their backs in Hy6-specific mounts? In other words, in doing the early bird deal, I don't need to decide which "flavor" of Hy6 I want (Phase, Leaf, Sinar, etc), because it will only come in one flavor? If that's true, though, then where do the dealer-branded mockups that we've seen pics of fit in? E.g., the Sinar Hy6, the Leaf AFi? Presumably, the Leaf AFi camera won't accept anything but Leaf backs, right? (Otherwise, what's the point of it being branded and marketed as the LEAF camera?) So how is that consistent with the "only one flavor of Hy6" hypothesis I've laid out? Furthermore, do we know whether the dealer-branded bundles will be less expensive that the Hy6+equivalent back separately? E.g., would the hypothetical "Phase One Hy6 45" be sold as a bundle that's less expensive than buying a Hy6 body and a Phase One P45 back separately?
The problem I'm seeing with the early bird deal is that there are too many unanswered questions at this point...Or at least too many qestions I don't know the answer to.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=90702\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
William,
At first, let me give an important precision about "early bird" deals concerning Sinar and the Hy6: YES, Sinar AG Switzerland is selling this camera (under the Sinar name Hy6) and is offering such promotion packages to all its distributors worldwide and at the same conditions for all distributors. It is obvious that those promotions might slightly look different in different countries, due to local differences. As such, Sinar is obvioulsy giving warranty for this particular Hy6 camera. This being said:
1. that is correct: you can swap and get the Hy6 with no additional charge. There is a possibility also to KEEP the 6008 at an additional charge which depends on the distributor (country) but which should be about less than 1/2 the new price.
2. First one has to define "the digital back makers who are on board": Sinar is selling this camera worldwide. Another "on board" is Leaf, with their own AFi.
I can speak only for Sinar: we will certainly produce all possible adapters for our own Sinarbacks. My guess is that Leaf will be doing the same with the AFi for their own backs. This is nothing but logical.
Further, I do not see Sinar or Leaf developing and producing adapters for other brands, and at the same time I do not see Sinar or Leaf able to stop other brands to develope and produce themselves the adapters for their own backs, if they wish so.
I hope it makes things a bit more understandable.
Thierry
Sinar AG
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I do not see Sinar or Leaf able to stop other brands to develope and produce themselves the adapters for their own backs, if they wish so.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=90716\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well Blad seem to be able to stop 3rd party backs - I spose it depends who controls F+H (or whatever they are called) - I think jenoptic have a swing and they 'own' sinar too ??
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To try and shed some light to those who are curious:
Jenoptik are the owners of the new medium format camera project.
Leaf has a signed contract with Jenoptik, committing to the supply of X amount of Leaf branded bodies & lenses over Y number of years.
This also gives Leaf access to the camera's spec and communication protocol, allowing to utilize its advanced technology.
The Leaf AFi will be distributed by Leaf through its dealers' channel
Pricing and trade-in/ upgrade policies will be made public in the new year
At this point, there are only two DB manufacturers involved in this project.
Yair
[span style=\'font-size:8pt;line-height:100%\']Yair Shahar | Regional Manager | Leaf EMEA |
mob: +44 77 8992 8199 | yair.shahar@kodak.com | www.leaf-photography.com
[/span]
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Thanks!
This is still all quite confusing, but if I understand Thierry and Yair correctly, there WILL be a "Sinar Hy6" and there will also be a "Leaf AFi." Sinar will make adapters for its backs to be used on the Sinar Hy6. Leaf will make adapters (or non-removable, permanent mounts on the backs themselves?) for all of it's back to be used on the Leaf AFi.
What's still not clear to me is (1) if there will be a Rollei/F&H branded Hy6 and (2) if not, how other back makers will access the Hy6 system. It seems unlikely that Phase, for example, is going to make a P series back with a mount to fit on a Leaf-branded or Sinar branded camera. Wouldn't they want a Phase-branded camera or, at a minimum, a "generic" camera ("Rollei Hy6") for their backs, so that they're not suuplying a digital back for a camera that has one of their competitor's names blazoned across the front?
And, from the consumer's perspective: if I buy an "early bird" Sinar Hy6, I know I can mount Sinar backs on it. What I don't know is if I could mount a Leaf back on it. E.g., Thierry said "I can speak only for Sinar: we will certainly produce all possible adapters for our own Sinarbacks. My guess is that Leaf will be doing the same with the AFi for their own backs." That still doesn't tell me if a Leaf back could be mounted on a Sinar Hy6, which is the only one this "early bird" end of year thing is applicable to, correct?
And, what I really don't know (since Phase isn't talking) is if I could mount an eventual Phase Hy6 back on it. I have a P30, which will be upgraded to the P30+, which I will likely swap from the Contax mount I'm using now to the Hy6 mount if Phase gets on board.
In short, there are too many unknowns for me to make an intelligent decision now.
William,
At first, let me give an important precision about "early bird" deals concerning Sinar and the Hy6: YES, Sinar AG Switzerland is selling this camera (under the Sinar name Hy6) and is offering such promotion packages to all its distributors worldwide and at the same conditions for all distributors. It is obvious that those promotions might slightly look different in different countries, due to local differences. As such, Sinar is obvioulsy giving warranty for this particular Hy6 camera. This being said:
1. that is correct: you can swap and get the Hy6 with no additional charge. There is a possibility also to KEEP the 6008 at an additional charge which depends on the distributor (country) but which should be about less than 1/2 the new price.
2. First one has to define "the digital back makers who are on board": Sinar is selling this camera worldwide. Another "on board" is Leaf, with their own AFi.
I can speak only for Sinar: we will certainly produce all possible adapters for our own Sinarbacks. My guess is that Leaf will be doing the same with the AFi for their own backs. This is nothing but logical.
Further, I do not see Sinar or Leaf developing and producing adapters for other brands, and at the same time I do not see Sinar or Leaf able to stop other brands to develope and produce themselves the adapters for their own backs, if they wish so.
I hope it makes things a bit more understandable.
Thierry
Sinar AG
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=90716\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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It seems unlikely that Phase, for example, is going to make a P series back with a mount to fit on a Leaf-branded or Sinar branded camera. Wouldn't they want a Phase-branded camera or, at a minimum, a "generic" camera ("Rollei Hy6") for their backs, so that they're not suuplying a digital back for a camera that has one of their competitor's names blazoned across the front?
I expect that if Phase comes on board, they will also brand camera bodies to match their backs.
I sincerely hope that the backs and cameras will be interchangeable. Being open would be a major selling point of the system. In other words, you don't have to worry about Leaf staying in business if you buy a Leaf camera because you could always switch to Sinar or another brand for compatible add-ons. This peace of mind will help ALL the participants of the Hy6 project. The system as a whole needs every advantage to be able to take on and beat Hasselblad. Fingers crossed.
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To try and shed some light to those who are curious:
Jenoptik are the owners of the new medium format camera project.
Leaf has a signed contract with Jenoptik, committing to the supply of X amount of Leaf branded bodies & lenses over Y number of years.
This also gives Leaf access to the camera's spec and communication protocol, allowing to utilize its advanced technology.
The Leaf AFi will be distributed by Leaf through its dealers' channel
Pricing and trade-in/ upgrade policies will be made public in the new year
At this point, there are only two DB manufacturers involved in this project.
Yair
[span style=\'font-size:8pt;line-height:100%\']Yair Shahar | Regional Manager | Leaf EMEA |
mob: +44 77 8992 8199 | yair.shahar@kodak.com | www.leaf-photography.com
[/span]
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=90736\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
HI
From reports I am hearing....... I think ( my opinion) that Leaf & Sinar will be the only backs that will fit on the Hy6 camera. At the moment with market share Leaf & Phase are market leaders. Why do you think Phase & Mamiya were in talks!!!!!! Lets go back 6 years ago when Leaf & Sinar were working together!!! Lets cut to the chase, maby this is a way of Leaf gaining market share on Phase in the market. I use Mamiya, ZD & Leaf and I am in the middle and a little confused. At the same time I can understand this market posiion.
Thanks Denis
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Leaf has a signed contract with Jenoptik, committing to the supply of X amount of Leaf branded bodies & lenses over Y number of years.
Yair,
I think the question most of us have in realtionship to these branded cameras is, where does this leave people with diferent camera platforms?
Historically Leaf has rolled out new backs in the order of mounts, H-1 first, V mount second, Mamiya 3rd, Contax 4th, with sometimes a difference in delivery being months.
Since Leaf and Sinar (though I know you can only speak for Leaf) has a commercial interest in the HY6 and is committed to buying and selling a certain number of cameras, does this mean the HY6 will be the first mount for the newest Aptus, or the next newest Aptus?
I know I have trepedation over buying any new camera in the digital age. Once you realize that Hasselblad has a strong incentive to move you to thier back (28mm lens) I begin to realize that if you want to really use a hasselblad camera, you had better learn to love the Imacon back.
Will this be a reacurring theme with camera. Will Leaf, Sinar have a strong interest to move you to their camera and like everyone asks, will we have options to use a Phase, Sinar or Hasselblad back on a Leaf Branded HY6?
One of the reasons I chose the Contax was that company had no agenda, because well . . . that company is gone. Whatever firmware is in the camera can't be changed or modified to make me move to a different digital back platform and consequently if I have issues with the digital back there can be no excuses as to why the back does not function properly on the Contax becasue it's set in stone.
We all know the DB makers have a business model of upgrade paths. Will this also become part of the process with the cameras and lenses?
Will the HY6 (version 1) be eventually upgraded to the HY6 version 2 to take advantage of something in the latest Aptus and will a new lens require a new body, or a new back or . . . well you get my point.
Pricing, lens options, delivery dates is all good information, but the overall business model is just as important as the hardware specs.
JR
http://russellrutherford.com/ (http://russellrutherford.com/)
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In this digital age, the two important components (and where most of your money goes) are the digital back and the lenses. The shutter/ mirror box in between is secondary but does serve the purpose of making it all work as a system and has to be thoughtfuly designed.
For this discussion, let's also put the software component to the side.
Over the last 4-5 years we have seen a decline in sales of MF cameras and saw Contax, Bronica, some V-models and the GX680 dissappearing.
At the same time, nearly every new MF camera is being sold with a digital back.
With regards to the business model, body and lenses are basically tools for selling digital backs. Take a look at the various offers from pro dealers who give a camera+lens at a discounted rate (or free) if you buy the back from them.
The new camera and lens line are designed to allow for advanced features and qualities that are currently not available on other platforms. Therefore you can assume that Sinar and Leaf will have "better" backs for this camera, in the same way that Hasselblad offer "better" backs for the H system. It may well be "the same" back that if attached to the new camera will preform better then if attached to another platform, becasue the camera allows that.
There is no business gain for Leaf in selling the camera or licencing its spec to other DB makers (the licence belongs to Jenoptik) and therefore the camera will not be sold as a separate item (unless is it a second backup body etc.).
Going forward, it is unlikely that you will see digital backs other than Leaf and Sinar sold with the new camera.
Yair
Yair,
I think the question most of us have in realtionship to these branded cameras is, where does this leave people with diferent camera platforms?
Historically Leaf has rolled out new backs in the order of mounts, H-1 first, V mount second, Mamiya 3rd, Contax 4th, with sometimes a difference in delivery being months.
Since Leaf and Sinar (though I know you can only speak for Leaf) has a commercial interest in the HY6 and is committed to buying and selling a certain number of cameras, does this mean the HY6 will be the first mount for the newest Aptus, or the next newest Aptus?
I know I have trepedation over buying any new camera in the digital age. Once you realize that Hasselblad has a strong incentive to move you to thier back (28mm lens) I begin to realize that if you want to really use a hasselblad camera, you had better learn to love the Imacon back.
Will this be a reacurring theme with camera. Will Leaf, Sinar have a strong interest to move you to their camera and like everyone asks, will we have options to use a Phase, Sinar or Hasselblad back on a Leaf Branded HY6?
One of the reasons I chose the Contax was that company had no agenda, because well . . . that company is gone. Whatever firmware is in the camera can't be changed or modified to make me move to a different digital back platform and consequently if I have issues with the digital back there can be no excuses as to why the back does not function properly on the Contax becasue it's set in stone.
We all know the DB makers have a business model of upgrade paths. Will this also become part of the process with the cameras and lenses?
Will the HY6 (version 1) be eventually upgraded to the HY6 version 2 to take advantage of something in the latest Aptus and will a new lens require a new body, or a new back or . . . well you get my point.
Pricing, lens options, delivery dates is all good information, but the overall business model is just as important as the hardware specs.
JR
http://russellrutherford.com/ (http://russellrutherford.com/)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=90832\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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In this digital age, the two important components (and where most of your money goes) are the digital back and the lenses. The shutter/ mirror box in between is secondary but does serve the purpose of making it all work as a system and has to be thoughtfuly designed.
For this discussion, let's also put the software component to the side.
Over the last 4-5 years we have seen a decline in sales of MF cameras and saw Contax, Bronica, some V-models and the GX680 dissappearing.
At the same time, nearly every new MF camera is being sold with a digital back.
With regards to the business model, body and lenses are basically tools for selling digital backs. Take a look at the various offers from pro dealers who give a camera+lens at a discounted rate (or free) if you buy the back from them.
The new camera and lens line are designed to allow for advanced features and qualities that are currently not available on other platforms. Therefore you can assume that Sinar and Leaf will have "better" backs for this camera, in the same way that Hasselblad offer "better" backs for the H system. It may well be "the same" back that if attached to the new camera will preform better then if attached to another platform, becasue the camera allows that.
There is no business gain for Leaf in selling the camera or licencing its spec to other DB makers (the licence belongs to Jenoptik) and therefore the camera will not be sold as a separate item (unless is it a second backup body etc.).
Going forward, it is unlikely that you will see digital backs other than Leaf and Sinar sold with the new camera.
Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=90842\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Dear Yair,
that's about what I was going to write on my own, and you said it so well! Thanks!
It is a fact that MF cameras are used to sell digital backs. Some MF makers have in the meantime disappeared and Hasselblad has gone its own way. Nobody knows about Mamiya and what is going on exactly.
The new AFi/Hy6 is a project belonging to Jenoptik: they decide who will be allowed to sell this camera, and it is a fact that the decision has be taken in favour of Leaf and Sinar. In this regard, neither Sinar nor Leaf have any power and right to sell it to other companies, being it back manufacturers or not, and as said Yair, actually there is no gain at all to do so.
Thierry
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Going forward, it is unlikely that you will see digital backs other than Leaf and Sinar sold with the new camera.
Yair
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[/quote]
Hi Yair
Does this mean that Phase out? ( Hy6 platform ).
Thanks Denis
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Going forward, it is unlikely that you will see digital backs other than Leaf and Sinar sold with the new camera.
Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=90842\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi Yair
Does this mean that Phase out? ( Hy6 platform ).
Thanks Denis
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=90847\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I believe Thierry has just answered your question
Thanks, yair
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So all this talk of 'evil' Hasselblad having a closed system appears to be exactly the same strategy of Leaf and Sinar?
Perhaps it is time to realise that more integrated cameras are a better choice for us photographers in terms of features and value for money?
Jo S. x
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OK, now I'm more than confused; I'm verging on angry.
The Hy6 project was heralded as this big open platform, the idea being that a new, advanced camera would be a potential platform for various digital backs. Then (and, in fact, in this very forum), it was stated that "only two manufacturers are currently on board, but nothing would preclude other manufacturers from making backs/adapters for the Hy6." (That's not a direct quote, but it's my best recollection)
NOW, if I'm hearing Theirry and Yair correctly, none of the above is true. Rather, there will be a Sinar Hy6, which will ONLY use Sinar backs, and there will be a Leaf AFi, which will ONLY use Leaf backs. That's it. So, the Hy6 platform is only "open" if you define open as "limited to two back manufacturers and no one else (Leaf and Sinar)" rather than "limited to one back manufacturer and no one else (Hassy's approach)."
Yippee for Leaf and Sinar (and Jenoptik), if they think that business model will increase their profits. It's a pretty crappy model from the consumer's perspective, however. Granted, I have a bit of "sour grapes" because I use Phase, which will apparently be locked out of the Hy6 project, but if I really want a Hy6 bad enough, I'll just sell or swap my Phase back and get a Leaf or Sinar instead, which is, of course, what Jenoptik/Leaf/Sinar would like to happen. At this point, however, I'd be highly unwilling to do so out of spite because I resent any "closed" model.
The philosophy behind antitrust laws and laws against "tie-ins" is that more choice is always better from the consumer's perspective. No, I'm not suggesting that there's anything illegal here, I'm making a broader point. Regardless of legality, these sort of decisions are bad from the consumer's perspective, as Michael so elequently stated regarding Hassy's H3 and with regard to pushing for more manufacturers to adopt the open DNG RAW format. I don't know if he feels the same way about the way this Hy6 issue is evolving, but I certainly do.
Regardless: it looks like the Hy6 is off the table for me now and I'll stick with the Contax.
So all this talk of 'evil' Hasselblad having a closed system appears to be exactly the same strategy of Leaf and Sinar?
Perhaps it is time to realise that more integrated cameras are a better choice for us photographers in terms of features and value for money?
Jo S. x
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=90852\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Regardless of legality, these sort of decisions are bad from the consumer's perspective, as Michael so elequently stated regarding Hassy's H3 and with regard to pushing for more manufacturers to adopt the open DNG RAW format.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=90860\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think it was far from eloquent. There were a number of innacuracies about the whole system / idea.
Furthermore it is Hasselblad's THIRD integrated camera. People seem to have forgotten the H1D and the H2D. The H1D was released two years ago!
I still use an H2D and the 'integrated' part of the system is a blessing not a curse. I am sure other uses of the system will agree.
If Leaf and Sinar can create a 'better' tool due to integration then maybe it is still worth your attention?
Jo S. x
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There's a difference between something being integrated and somethign being closed. As I understand it, Hassy offered the H2D (integrated package of the body and back) as well as the H2 (which would allow the use of non-Hassy backs). Whether one believes the "intergrated" flavor is better isn't the point; rather, the H2 offered a choice. E.g., if I like the integrated version, great, get the H2D. If I liked a Phase or Leaf or Sinar back better, OK, get the H2 with whatever back I want.
Nonetheless, we're talking about the Hy6, not Hassy. The Hy6 will NOT offer choice between integrated or modular. There will be a Leaf AFi integrated with a Leaf back or a Sinar Hy6 integrated with a Sinar back. That's it.
My point is not, e.g., a Phase back on a Hy6 would be better than the integrated Leaf/Sinar versions. My point is only that I'd like to be able to make that decision myself. It's possible that, in the future, I might decide that I want a Leaf rather than a Phase back anyway; if so, great, I can use the Hy6. If I (and the majority of owners of medium format backs who use Phase) decide to stick with Phase, no Hy6.
To be clear: I have no particular brand loyalty to Phase: I bought it because it was the best option for my needs available at the time, even though the Aptus was certainly close. So, I don't really care if Phase wins or loses by virtue of the Leaf/Sinar Hy6 exclusive. What I care about is how much choice I'll have.
If Leaf and Sinar can create a 'better' tool due to integration then maybe it is still worth your attention?
Jo S. x
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=90863\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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There's a difference between something being integrated and somethign being closed. As I understand it, Hassy offered the H2D (integrated package of the body and back) as well as the H2 (which would allow the use of non-Hassy backs). Whether one believes the "intergrated" flavor is better isn't the point; rather, the H2 offered a choice. E.g., if I like the integrated version, great, get the H2D. If I liked a Phase or Leaf or Sinar back better, OK, get the H2 with whatever back I want.
My point is not, e.g., a Phase back on a Hy6 would be better than the integrated Leaf/Sinar versions. My point is only that I'd like to be able to make that decision myself. It's possible that, in the future, I might decide that I want a Leaf rather than a Phase back anyway; if so, great, I can use the Hy6. If I (and the majority of owners of medium format backs who use Phase) decide to stick with Phase, no Hy6.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=90864\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well, hopefully it will be a suprise to you to learn that you can still buy an H2 today and fit with a Phase / Leaf as many photographers already have done.
...and as for the second part of your response - I guess it is up to Phase if they can or want to strike a deal with Jenoptik and IF they feel their customer base will be interested enough to warrant a ROI.
Jo S. x
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if the Hy6 will not support Phase backs or if jenoptic decides not to work with phase, the Hy6 will be just as marginal as the rollei 6000 series....very unfortunate but a reality...right now not only does phase have the largest marketshare, they also have a very strong product line, the best (most advanced and stable) software and agressive pricing...i agree that all backs can produce magnificent results, but i don't hear of anyone switching from phase to any other backs, but there is a lot of switching to phase going on....for the Hy6 to compete against hasselblad they have to get phase on board, it is as simple as that....
of course this is neither in sinars nor in leafs interest, so i would take some opinions shared here with a grain of salt....the fact that sinar will be the distributer of the Hy6 makes things more complicated, but regardless, people will switch cameras, not backs and workflow....
at least hasselblad has the advantage (or can at least claim the advantage) of controlling everything and using software to correct lensproblems.....sinar, rllei and leaf won't have that excuse to lock others (phase) out...
i guess we will have to wait and see, but without phase, the Hy6 will go the way of the rollei 6008...probably the best camera with the best lenses, tragically cut down by bad marketing and business decisions....
also: the Hy6 needs phase to succeed...phase does not need the Hy6....
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Rather, there will be a Sinar Hy6, which will ONLY use Sinar backs, and there will be a Leaf AFi, which will ONLY use Leaf backs.
Where did you get this information from? I haven't seen anything official.
also: the Hy6 needs phase to succeed...phase does not need the Hy6....
Who will Phase sell their backs to once Hasselblad finishes locking them out?
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I got this info from Thierry and Yair's posts just above. That seems relatively "official."
Where did you get this information from? I haven't seen anything official.
also: the Hy6 needs phase to succeed...phase does not need the Hy6....
Who will Phase sell their backs to once Hasselblad finishes locking them out?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=90874\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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If I remember correctly, when the announcement of the Hy6 was made their were THREE options announced, not TWO.
1. The Sinar branded version.
2. The Leaf branded version.
3. The Rollei branded version.
I would expect the Rollei version to be an open platform camera that takes all or most DB's with an adapter or a mount on the back, since they don't make digital backs.
It only makes since for the other two, Sinar and Leaf, to make their backs as integrated with their branded cameras as possible. Actually it's a necessity for them to put it together in a way that will give the photographer better results than using the an open platform camera such as a Contax or a Rollei 6008af, otherwise what's the point? Three identical Hy6 cameras with three different names?
The only thing that I haven't read yet is:
Will the Leaf or Sinar versions of the Hy6 allow for the adaption of a Phase back if the photographer decides to change backs? Is there some kind of legal barrier that could hinder Phase from putting a Leaf Hy6 mount on a P-XY back? I hope not.
And if there actually is a Rollei Hy6 will Leaf, Phase and Sinar support it by making their backs with Rollei mounts?
I doubt it, but this would be the best scenario.
An open platform Rollei for everyone who would like to use different backs on one camera or just doesn't want to be "locked in".
A Leaf/Sinar Hy6 that is tuned with the Leaf/Sinar backs giving better performance, but also open enough to allow for a different back if necessary, but of course lacking the added benefits of the integrated version.
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Where did you get this information from? I haven't seen anything official.
also: the Hy6 needs phase to succeed...phase does not need the Hy6....
Who will Phase sell their backs to once Hasselblad finishes locking them out?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=90874\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
there are a lot more contax, mamiyas and H1 and 2s out there then digital backs...these cameras won't go away....if "rollei" locks out phase and hasselblad locks out phase, mamiya will make a body for phase and with phase they could actually compete and make a ZDII that actually delivers what the first one hinted on....
the only official statements in this forum are from a leaf rep and a sinar rep...
we don't know if there will be a rollei Hy6 which will take any back it pleases via adapter or not....
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if the Hy6 will not support Phase backs or if jenoptic decides not to work with phase, the Hy6 will be just as marginal as the rollei 6000 series....very unfortunate but a reality...right now not only does phase have the largest marketshare, they also have a very strong product line, the best (most advanced and stable) software and agressive pricing...i agree that all backs can produce magnificent results, but i don't hear of anyone switching from phase to any other backs, but there is a lot of switching to phase going on....for the Hy6 to compete against hasselblad they have to get phase on board, it is as simple as that....
of course this is neither in sinars nor in leafs interest, so i would take some opinions shared here with a grain of salt....the fact that sinar will be the distributer of the Hy6 makes things more complicated, but regardless, people will switch cameras, not backs and workflow....
at least hasselblad has the advantage (or can at least claim the advantage) of controlling everything and using software to correct lensproblems.....sinar, rllei and leaf won't have that excuse to lock others (phase) out...
i guess we will have to wait and see, but without phase, the Hy6 will go the way of the rollei 6008...probably the best camera with the best lenses, tragically cut down by bad marketing and business decisions....
also: the Hy6 needs phase to succeed...phase does not need the Hy6....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=90867\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think that the key for the Hy6 or the AFi is what ultimately becomes of the camera/back integration. If there are no significant integration gains, then it just becomes another (expensive) camera system choice. Despite the griping about Hasselblad's "closed system", since the announcement of the H3D, units have been flying off the shelves because the advantages of their solution are clear to anyone who tries one out.
Phase One does currently have the highest market share, but market share is not a static statistic - it changes - sometimes dramatically - even with a single announcement of a new product. People do switch from Phase One - I've had Leaf Aptus sales this year to former Phase One customers. For better or worse (better: performance, worse: choices) integration is the future. I have a hard time seeing a digital back manufacturer surviving 5 more years without an integrated solution. The market can't support them all as it stands today. It's a race to see who remains.
It's good that Phase One has a strong product. If they didn't, their outlook would look dubious. Phase One doesn't need the Hy6, but they better come up with something.
Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
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i just cant see where will the gain for leaf/sinar/phase/imacon if all four will have "their" own closed camera system. it simply has to be a question of time till phase will have it also.
will therefore be sold one unit more? i hardly doubt it,- the only thing which will happen is that the market positions will become much more static cause the price for changing back and camera and maybe even the lenses will increase more than it is now.
probably it will happen the opposite: the number of people who step up from 35mm systems to mf will be less than now, cause the whole mf thing loose much attraction.
so what looks for the singular company as a logical step for increasing their market share and their profits in short time could end up with the opposite for all four players..... all will loose for it.
and one damokles sword is over all of the four: although noone wants to think in this, i believe its not so unlikely that a real BIG player as canon could see its chance to roll off the whole mf market with a new ( also closed) system, but with a completely other devellopement power behind it and with a completely other calculation in the sold numbers of units and therefore in the prices ( mamiya tried but hasnt had the resources and the experence therefore ).
it could appear that this separation politic prepares the grave of the actual players....... because such a step of a BIG player will be much more easy if it have to compete with four little individual players than with an whole and opened mf market, which would be much more resistant against such a possibility.
without wanting to open any speculativ discussion based on individual rumors...
but i heard things which lead in this direction. at least they ( canon! ) prepare themselve and their product lineup to be prepared to go in such a direction if they think it will be interesting for them. i hope for the four back manufactors that this will not happen, but they should not make it too easy and invite the real shark........
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I don't think this question has been answered - Will the Sinar Hy6 allow the use of an Aptus? Or a Leaf AFi a Sinar eMotion? My guess is no, but I hope...
Actually, this model of closed sysytems has always existed in medium format. We had Bronica, Contax, Hasselblad, Mamiya, Pentax and Rollei earlier. Now we have Hasselblad, Mamiya, Rollei-Leaf and Rollei-Sinar. We may still have Rollei-Phase, Rollei-Imacon or Mamiya-Phase. Our confusion and anger arises from the fact that earlier, digital backs were sold as accessories that we could slap onto any of our cameras. Now, cameras have become accessories for backs.
And don't forget that Canon is just waiting for photographers to accept the concept of closed systems for digital medium format. Once that happens, what's to prevent them from coming up with a solution? Or even buying up Mamiya? And while we're guessing. why not buy up Sinar? Hasselblad is now more of a design and marketing company, and it's Chinese, not Swedish anymore. And it can have all the medium format companies for breakfast...
Cheers,
Kumar
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I don't think this question has been answered - Will the Sinar Hy6 allow the use of an Aptus? Or a Leaf AFi a Sinar eMotion? My guess is no, but I hope...
Actually, this model of closed sysytems has always existed in medium format. We had Bronica, Contax, Hasselblad, Mamiya, Pentax and Rollei earlier. Now we have Hasselblad, Mamiya, Rollei-Leaf and Rollei-Sinar. We may still have Rollei-Phase, Rollei-Imacon or Mamiya-Phase. Our confusion and anger arises from the fact that earlier, digital backs were sold as accessories that we could slap onto any of our cameras. Now, cameras have become accessories for backs.
And don't forget that Canon is just waiting for photographers to accept the concept of closed systems for digital medium format. Once that happens, what's to prevent them from coming up with a solution? Or even buying up Mamiya? And while we're guessing. why not buy up Sinar? Hasselblad is now more of a design and marketing company, and it's Chinese, not Swedish anymore. And it can have all the medium format companies for breakfast...
Cheers,
Kumar
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=90899\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It is my understanding that the Sinar Hy6 is going to use the standard Rollei Mount. So in that regard it is going to be and will continue to be an open system. That being said it will be up to the other back manufacturers to make their backs in that mount. I have no idea if leaf is going to make their back in the standard rollei mount or will develop some sort of proprietory mount. Phase (I believe) has only made the P20 in the Rollei mount and has no other back currently in that mount.
So that being said it is up to the back manufacturers to make their backs in a given mount.
Matt LaPointe
Sinar Bron Imaging
Regional Sales Manager
(219) 670-9905
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Hang on: you're saying that the "Hy6 digital back mount" will be the current standard Rollei 6008 mount? Meaning that any digital back that currently has a Rollei mount would fit and work on any "flavor" Hy6? If so, that's great and is more in line with the original annoucement of the Hy6. It is not, however, what is being said (or at the very least, implied) by the Leaf and and other Sinar reps in this thread.
Some clarity from the top at Jenoptik would be helpful...
It is my understanding that the Sinar Hy6 is going to use the standard Rollei Mount. So in that regard it is going to be and will continue to be an open system. That being said it will be up to the other back manufacturers to make their backs in that mount. I have no idea if leaf is going to make their back in the standard rollei mount or will develop some sort of proprietory mount. Phase (I believe) has only made the P20 in the Rollei mount and has no other back currently in that mount.
So that being said it is up to the back manufacturers to make their backs in a given mount.
Matt LaPointe
Sinar Bron Imaging
Regional Sales Manager
(219) 670-9905
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=90904\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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So it's not a Rollei-Sinar mount or a Rollei-Leaf mount? Rather, it's a Rollei mount. And if it's a standard Rollei mount, then I expect Phase would eventually come on board, after the period of exclusivity is over. Something like the deal that Sinar had with Kodak for the first 22mp back. BUT, a Sinar Hy6 MAY contain additional electronic features that can be accessed only by a Sinarback. Similarly, a Leaf AFi MAY have features available only to Aptus backs. By this I mean that an Aptus WILL mount on a Sinar Hy6, but will function without any electronic features, essentially like a view camera. In such a situation, it would probably work tethered only?
On the other hand, a ROLLEI Hy6 would be compatible with any brand of digital back, with the appropriate adapter. Is this understanding correct?
I wonder if we could get some Rollei and Jenoptik representatives on board as well.
Cheers,
Kumar
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i believe the company which will be brave enough to work with an "open" mount as the rollei will gain market share in the longer term. so i hope that it be the rollei mount.
in the early bird offer there are some parts which show that this will be the case:
if you buy now a 6008 you can either change it in a hy6 or you can hold it as a backup for a very reasonable price ( the price therefore really is tempting! ). this dos not make any sense if there would be a new mount with the hy6,- sinar will hardly modify the existing 6008 cameras which will be taken as backup bodies.... so the only logic explanation is that the sinar hy mount has to be the same than the rollei 6008 mount.
lets see what leaf will do. maybe another story, as i understood yaya you just can buy a leaf-rollei if you buy also a back. anyway, this says nothing about the mount.
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It is my understanding that the Sinar Hy6 is going to use the standard Rollei Mount. So in that regard it is going to be and will continue to be an open system. That being said it will be up to the other back manufacturers to make their backs in that mount. I have no idea if leaf is going to make their back in the standard rollei mount or will develop some sort of proprietory mount. Phase (I believe) has only made the P20 in the Rollei mount and has no other back currently in that mount.
So that being said it is up to the back manufacturers to make their backs in a given mount.
Matt LaPointe
Sinar Bron Imaging
Regional Sales Manager
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=90904\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
there is no "standard rollei" mount...for the lenses there is, but not for the backs....the back of the 6000 only fit the 6000 series filmmagazines, the P20 was made by phase to fit the 6008, the p25 could not be adapted because the mount was too narrow for it to be rotated.....all emotion/sinar backs fit on the 6000via adapters....i know the P20 did not even collect data from the camera/lenses (exposure,....)...and the back of the Hy6 has very little in common with the 6000 series...the 4560 film magazine is shown in several pics on the Hy6, but just like on the 6000, it is connected via adapter.....
i guess this shows how much information the new rollei distributer has on their product...brings quality to this discussion....
what we all know and what won't change is that leaf and phase have their own Dback mount...sinar/imacon fit via adapters....so the leaf Hy6 (afi) will only fit a leaf back unless leaf will make adapters to fit sinar/imacon which is very unlikely, the sinar Hy6 will fit sinar backs via adapter (or they will make sinarbacks just for the Hy6mount, whatever that will be)
the idea that the Hy6 will somehow magically adapt to all backs made for all mounts is totally unrealistic..how many adapters and which adapters will be offered by sinar, rollei, hasselblad,..(or 3rd party manufacturers) remains to be seen...
unless rollei shuts phase out on purpose i don't see why phase would not be able to mount their backs onto the Hy6....but they will probably never fit on a AFi...or via adapter? who knows, who cares? the Hy6 (in whatever mount) will not solve the "tower of babel" of DMF backs and mounts
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i believe the company which will be brave enough to work with an "open" mount as the rollei will gain market share in the longer term. so i hope that it be the rollei mount.
in the early bird offer there are some parts which show that this will be the case:
if you buy now a 6008 you can either change it in a hy6 or you can hold it as a backup for a very reasonable price ( the price therefore really is tempting! ). this dos not make any sense if there would be a new mount with the hy6,- sinar will hardly modify the existing 6008 cameras which will be taken as backup bodies.... so the only logic explanation is that the sinar hy mount has to be the same than the rollei 6008 mount.
lets see what leaf will do. maybe another story, as i understood yaya you just can buy a leaf-rollei if you buy also a back. anyway, this says nothing about the mount.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=90910\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
SINAR DOES NOT HAVE TO CHANGE THE MOUNT...THEY SIMPLY GIVE YOU A DIFFERENT ADAPTER!
all emotion backs fit on all cameras because they use adapters....very simple...
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SINAR DOES NOT HAVE TO CHANGE THE MOUNT...THEY SIMPLY GIVE YOU A DIFFERENT ADAPTER!
all emotion backs fit on all cameras because they use adapters....very simple...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=90912\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
but than the back does not work any longer with the 6008 and they explicit offer to hold it as backup body for a good price. how you will use your backup 6008 body? with a second adapter which you will unscrew and change ? does not make sense for me.
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but than the back does not work any longer with the 6008 and they explicit offer to hold it as backup body for a good price. how you will use your backup 6008 body? with a second adapter which you will unscrew and change ? does not make sense for me.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=90915\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
the adapter is on the camera body, not the Dback!!! the Hy6 has totally different dimension then the 6008! very simple: there is a adapter for the emotion for the 6008 right now, that is the one the emotion ships with, when the Hy6 comes out, you simply take the emotion off and INSERT it into teh adapter on the Hy6...
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I think we need a system chart/s here. Very confusing!
Cheers,
Kumar
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Yaya,
I don't think anybody begrudges Leaf, or Phase or even General Motors desire to make money and protect their brand. That's what commerce is all about.
Given that, you are coming at this from the view of a digital back manufacturer and I'm coming at this from the view of a photographer that transitioned from film to digital.
It seems to me that Canon is now the way of the world. One camera, one digital solution, one set of lenses. To me, for medium format to mirror that is not the most positive move as it limits my options as an artist and a business person.
Ask any photographer what he has more passion for, the camera, or the digital device? I would bet 10 to 1 it's the camera, regardless of the fact that the business model has changed to where the camera is now considered a "give away' compared to the price of the digital device.
What we had, until the last few months were options.
With film we could load twenty different looks into our cameras and with processing options multiply that another 20 times and get to the result pretty easy.
Today the digital backs are the film and the software the lab and especially when we tether we are married to one base film and one lab with a few processing options.
When the Hy6 becomes a Leaf and Sinar only product we are even more limited to one camera, one set of lenses, one film and one lab, maybe two or three labs if the software like Lightroom and RD become fully developed and allow tethering.
For every photographer I know that likes an all in one solution, I know 10 others that don't want to be locked into one camera, lens, "digital film" and lab.
Also today with my Contax, I use Contax, Hasselblad, pentax 6x7 and Urkraine tilt shift lenses.
(BTW: All of my bodies and lenses are also probably 1/2 the cost of the comparable H1/2/3 platform.)
I can put a phase, sinar, Leaf or Hasselblad back on my camera. Actually I own a P-30 and an A-22 and can find use for both of them.
With the HY6 being proprietary to Sinar and Leaf and with Leaf having a vested interest in seeing this platform succeed what happens to the R+D towards other platforms like the Contax, Mamiyas, Hasselblads, etc.?
If we try to continue with our Contax, Hasselblads, Mamiyas, will we be locked out and forced to move to the Hy6 and if so what are we actually gaining, other than more limitations?
JR
http://www.jamesrussellphotography.com (http://www.jamesrussellphotography.com)
In this digital age, the two important components (and where most of your money goes) are the digital back and the lenses. The shutter/ mirror box in between is secondary but does serve the purpose of making it all work as a system and has to be thoughtfuly designed.
For this discussion, let's also put the software component to the side.
Over the last 4-5 years we have seen a decline in sales of MF cameras and saw Contax, Bronica, some V-models and the GX680 dissappearing.
At the same time, nearly every new MF camera is being sold with a digital back.
With regards to the business model, body and lenses are basically tools for selling digital backs. Take a look at the various offers from pro dealers who give a camera+lens at a discounted rate (or free) if you buy the back from them.
The new camera and lens line are designed to allow for advanced features and qualities that are currently not available on other platforms. Therefore you can assume that Sinar and Leaf will have "better" backs for this camera, in the same way that Hasselblad offer "better" backs for the H system. It may well be "the same" back that if attached to the new camera will preform better then if attached to another platform, becasue the camera allows that.
There is no business gain for Leaf in selling the camera or licencing its spec to other DB makers (the licence belongs to Jenoptik) and therefore the camera will not be sold as a separate item (unless is it a second backup body etc.).
Going forward, it is unlikely that you will see digital backs other than Leaf and Sinar sold with the new camera.
Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=90842\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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With the HY6 being proprietary to Sinar and Leaf and with Leaf having a vested interest in seeing this platform succeed what happens to the R+D towards other platforms like the Contax, Mamiyas, Hasselblads, etc.?
If we try to continue with our Contax, Hasselblads, Mamiyas, will we be locked out and forced to move to the Hy6 and if so what are we actually gaining, other than more limitations?
JR
http://www.jamesrussellphotography.com (http://www.jamesrussellphotography.com)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=90936\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
James,
Of course we would like to see this platform succeed, mostly because it allows for greater qualities and capabilities that aren't available on other platforms, therefore giving us an edge.
Still, this is not a DSLR-like, all-in-one system...rotating back, interchangable viewfinders, removable back that can be used on other platforms and so on.
But as I said, the camera is a tool for selling backs and not the oposite, so if you want to buy a new back for your Contax, Mamiya, H1 or V, nothing should stop you from doing just that.
Yair
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If that's true, though, then where do the dealer-branded mockups that we've seen pics of fit in? E.g., the Sinar Hy6, the Leaf AFi? Presumably, the Leaf AFi camera won't accept anything but Leaf backs, right? (Otherwise, what's the point of it being branded and marketed as the LEAF camera?)
The point is that Leaf could sell a Leaf branded product through the existing Leaf network, and people can feel more secure buying the camera and back from the same company.
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It would be a shame but something tells me Leaf may find themselves without a camera partner soon.
Why? I believe contracts for the supply of the Leaf version of the H6 are already signed. There was a press announcement a month or two ago.
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I got this info from Thierry and Yair's posts just above. That seems relatively "official."
Neither one of them ever wrote that the Leaf AFi will not accept a Sinar back, or vice versa. I believe the Hy6 mount is universal and therefore interchangeable. I still haven't seen anything to the contrary and I've read everything I could find.
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although noone wants to think in this, i believe its not so unlikely that a real BIG player as canon could see its chance to roll off the whole mf market with a new ( also closed) system, but with a completely other devellopement power behind it and with a completely other calculation in the sold numbers of units and therefore in the prices
The difference between the existing players and Canon is that they already have thousands of users who have already bought into a system, and they already have a complete set of proven lenses and accessories. If Canon were to enter the market, they would have to design and produce a whole new body, a set of lenses and accessories. Then they would have to find a way to sell these complete new systems to people at $10K+ (body, lenses and accessories only, not the digital back). It is a much harder sell than just selling a digital body to someone who already has the lenses. The huge R&D effort could hardly be justified for a market selling so few units compared to 35mm DSLRs. It would not be economical for them to set up a plant to make the large sensors required - they would have to buy from Dalsa or Kodak like everyone else. Would the image quality be better than the existing offerings? I doubt it very much. They could only compete on price but they have the price barrier disadvantage of a new standard. In summary, high cost of entry, high risk, lower margins than the competition (if they compete on price), small market. If there were a compelling business case for them to do it, they already would have.
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in the early bird offer there are some parts which show that this will be the case:
if you buy now a 6008 you can either change it in a hy6 or you can hold it as a backup for a very reasonable price ( the price therefore really is tempting! ). this dos not make any sense if there would be a new mount with the hy6,- sinar will hardly modify the existing 6008 cameras which will be taken as backup bodies.... so the only logic explanation is that the sinar hy mount has to be the same than the rollei 6008 mount.
No, the Sinarbacks employ adapters. It is quite possible that they will supply a new adapter for the Hy6. One can't reach any firm conclusions from this offer.
I spoke to someone at Franke & Heidecke months ago and he told me there was a new mount for the Hy6. Whether that means totally new, or mechanically the same but with extra electric interface, I don't know.
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xx
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Given that, you are coming at this from the view of a digital back manufacturer and I'm coming at this from the view of a photographer that transitioned from film to digital.
What we had, until the last few months were options.
With film we could load twenty different looks into our cameras and with processing options multiply that another 20 times and get to the result pretty easy.
Today the digital backs are the film and the software the lab and especially when we tether we are married to one base film and one lab with a few processing options.
When the Hy6 becomes a Leaf and Sinar only product we are even more limited to one camera, one set of lenses, one film and one lab, maybe two or three labs if the software like Lightroom and RD become fully developed and allow tethering.
For every photographer I know that likes an all in one solution, I know 10 others that don't want to be locked into one camera, lens, "digital film" and lab.
I see it quite differently. The digital backs are not the film or the lab. They simply provide raw data that the software is converting into the look of the file that pops open when you import the image into a raw converter. All of the files from the newer MFDBs can be made to look quite similar with the right "corrections" in post-processing, so it is the software, and more specifically, what you do in the software after the image is captured, that dictates the "look" of the file. Until recently, I shot medium format film, and I could decide depending upon a host of considerations like the lighting conditions, the subject matter, the contrast range of the scene, etc, what film to choose. With a MFDB, or any digtial capture for that matter, the images always open with the same default profile, and you then have to fiddle with the images to get them to look how thay would have looked if I had shot them on say Astia or Velvia or whatever. I wish the manufacurer did that for me by providing a set of "looks" that mimicked certain film stocks. The default could be a "neutral" rendition, but there would be a bouquet of options that I could access with one click rather than spending a bunch of time fiddling with the files myself. (There is actually a new software program called DxO Film Pack that does this, but I don't know how well, and in any event it is not available for MFDBs.) I have no problem spending the time working an important file, but I should be able to get files to open up immediately on my desktop looking every bit as good as an Astia chrome looks when I plop it on my light table as soon as it comes back from the lab.
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Just FYI, Alien Skin's Exposure Photoshop plug-in is quite good in this regard. Also, the current version of Capture One also provides for a variety of film "looks" to be applied to RAW conversions.
I see it quite differently. The digital backs are not the film or the lab. They simply provide raw data that the software is converting into the look of the file that pops open when you import the image into a raw converter. All of the files from the newer MFDBs can be made to look quite similar with the right "corrections" in post-processing, so it is the software, and more specifically, what you do in the software after the image is captured, that dictates the "look" of the file. Until recently, I shot medium format film, and I could decide depending upon a host of considerations like the lighting conditions, the subject matter, the contrast range of the scene, etc, what film to choose. With a MFDB, or any digtial capture for that matter, the images always open with the same default profile, and you then have to fiddle with the images to get them to look how thay would have looked if I had shot them on say Astia or Velvia or whatever. I wish the manufacurer did that for me by providing a set of "looks" that mimicked certain film stocks. The default could be a "neutral" rendition, but there would be a bouquet of options that I could access with one click rather than spending a bunch of time fiddling with the files myself. (There is actually a new software program called DxO Film Pack that does this, but I don't know how well, and in any event it is not available for MFDBs.) I have no problem spending the time working an important file, but I should be able to get files to open up immediately on my desktop looking every bit as good as an Astia chrome looks when I plop it on my light table as soon as it comes back from the lab.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=90960\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Just FYI, Alien Skin's Exposure Photoshop plug-in is quite good in this regard. Also, the current version of Capture One also provides for a variety of film "looks" to be applied to RAW conversions.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=90964\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks, William. I think the Alien Skin plug-in is a sort of one-size-fits-all program for all digital files for all cameras, and cannot be used directly with the raw data. I was thinking more in terms of a set of tonal curves and color adjustments that would be "tuned" to the raw files of a specific MFDB and could be accessed right in the raw converter. I looked at the "Styles" in the Phase raw software when I was considering a Phase back, but there were just two generic "Styles", one for Ektachrome and one for Agfachrome. (Maybe they think Fuji is/was a small player in the world film market.)
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Thanks, William. I think the Alien Skin plug-in is a sort of one-size-fits-all program for all digital files for all cameras, and cannot be used directly with the raw data. I was thinking more in terms of a set of tonal curves and color adjustments that would be "tuned" to the raw files of a specific MFDB and could be accessed right in the raw converter. I looked at the "Styles" in the Phase raw software when I was considering a Phase back, but there were just two generic "Styles", one for Ektachrome and one for Agfachrome. (Maybe they think Fuji is/was a small player in the world film market.)
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=90971\")
C-1 has a color editor that allows to to selectively single out colors and change their hue, saturation and lightness, It takes about 30 minutes to learn and about 20 seconds to apply in the real world which allows you to make your own film profile on the fly.
A lot of the post processing software like Alien Skin is good and or course with enough time and effort you can make any image look like virtually any film or non film stock using photoshop.
I think it depends on your perspective and how you want to work and this is my point about options with cameras.
On set do you want to show a non representative look of the image with the explanation of we will get there in post produciton, or do you want to show as an exact look as possible?
When I'm shooting on my own, it doesn't really matter than I'm exact on the day, knowing what I can do in post, but in a room full of 11 clients, you want to get there as fast as possible and have every frame as close to the "film look" as you can get.
I work closely with an AD that has a very trained, but un technical eye.
Shooting a digital polaroid with a zeiss lens always makes him think it looks digitlal or too over sharpened. With the Contax I can put the Pentax 6x7 lenses on that are smoother and softer and he immedatly says film.
So for me having this option is a plus and even though a software suite like lightroom allows us to make a lot of changes and a lot of looks, today lightroom really isn't a fast tethering software so showing the exact look on a busy set is difficult, especially if you want every frame to appear in "your" film look.
C-1 comes closer than any on set software I've seen, but having the option of changing lenses is also a great benefit.
I hold to my premise that a lot of us bought digital backs for the options they present and to have choices that the all in one nature of the dslrs don't offer.
But to be clear, I'm not against the HY6 and sincerly hope it's a success, I just don't want to see all these other cameras also locked out or quietly removed from the digital process through lack of R+D or even a predetermined desire to move us into once direction and only one solution.
JR
[a href=\"http://www.russellrutherford.com/]http://www.russellrutherford.com/[/url]
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I believe Thierry has just answered your question
Thanks, yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=90849\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No, he didn't. He simply tiptoed a lot closer to actually saying it than you did. You are both hinting at the notion of Phase not being able to mount backs to this new camera system, though neither of you will just say the words. And a good thing too. Since the internet has such a long memory, you'd be well advised to avoid typing nonsense into it.
The two of you must spend a lot of time talking about this stuff with your coworkers and friends. So much time, in fact, that you are actually beginning to believe your own gossip.
"I am going to make an accessory for hybrid automobiles. It is going to be VERY desirable to any owner of these cars. It will not be cheap, at about 25-60% of the cost of the car itself, but well worth it if you buy in. I have this technology that only I can sell and once sold it cannot be adapted. I have the ability to offer it to any hybrid owner I want, but I CHOOSE to not offer it to Toyota (or possibly even all Japanese cars) owners."
And this somewhat less dumb than than the scenario you guys describe. Yes, Phase will surely be "locked out" to prevent Rollei from having to deal with all the difficulties of actually shipping a lot of product.
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No, he didn't. He simply tiptoed a lot closer to actually saying it than you did. You are both hinting at the notion of Phase not being able to mount backs to this new camera system, though neither of you will just say the words. And a good thing too. Since the internet has such a long memory, you'd be well advised to avoid typing nonsense into it.
The two of you must spend a lot of time talking about this stuff with your coworkers and friends. So much time, in fact, that you are actually beginning to believe your own gossip.
"I am going to make an accessory for hybrid automobiles. It is going to be VERY desirable to any owner of these cars. It will not be cheap, at about 25-60% of the cost of the car itself, but well worth it if you buy in. I have this technology that only I can sell and once sold it cannot be adapted. I have the ability to offer it to any hybrid owner I want, but I CHOOSE to not offer it to Toyota (or possibly even all Japanese cars) owners."
And this somewhat less dumb than than the scenario you guys describe. Yes, Phase will surely be "locked out" to prevent Rollei from having to deal with all the difficulties of actually shipping a lot of product.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=91011\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Dear ...?
I have been saying (writing) exactly what is in my knowledge (and in this of the company I am working for): we Sinar are selling a camera called Hy6 which will allow to adapt Sinarbacks.
There is another Back manufacturer, Leaf, who has got the rights to sell this camera as well.
The owner of the Hy6 camera project is Jenoptik. In clear words: they have paid and are paying for the R&D and manufacturing costs of this new camera. As such, Jenoptik are the sole to decide who gets the rights to sell this camera.
We said it clearly: at the current time of today, 2 back manufacturers have got the rights to sell this camera. And those 2 back manufacturers have not the rights to decided about another company selling (or NOT selling) it.
Period. It is a simple as that and we have no reason to say different things and no reason to hide things. What will happen tomorrow nobody knows it, and the non-sense would be to speculate and gossip on tomorrow or on may-be's.
I don't think Yair has said anything different. Believe me, we don't have that much time to speak about such things. Running the current business and delivering products (not vaporware) which are satisfying our customers are our first priority.
I think that I (as well as Yair) have been very correct and polite, in all these discussions: we are honestly trying to inform. The least one can expect is to keep this discussion without personal attacks.
Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
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No, he didn't. He simply tiptoed a lot closer to actually saying it than you did. You are both hinting at the notion of Phase not being able to mount backs to this new camera system, though neither of you will just say the words. And a good thing too. Since the internet has such a long memory, you'd be well advised to avoid typing nonsense into it.
The two of you must spend a lot of time talking about this stuff with your coworkers and friends. So much time, in fact, that you are actually beginning to believe your own gossip.
"I am going to make an accessory for hybrid automobiles. It is going to be VERY desirable to any owner of these cars. It will not be cheap, at about 25-60% of the cost of the car itself, but well worth it if you buy in. I have this technology that only I can sell and once sold it cannot be adapted. I have the ability to offer it to any hybrid owner I want, but I CHOOSE to not offer it to Toyota (or possibly even all Japanese cars) owners."
And this somewhat less dumb than than the scenario you guys describe. Yes, Phase will surely be "locked out" to prevent Rollei from having to deal with all the difficulties of actually shipping a lot of product.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=91011\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
What are you talking about?
Theiry and Yair have both made pretty clear statements on what the agendas are for the companies they represent. They can't make statements for Phase or for Franke & Heidicke/Rollei.
If Phase is locked out of the Hy6 then it's probably because they didn't want in.
There will be a Rollei Hy6. Phase has the ability to make a Rollei mount if they are interested.
The only question is: Can I buy a Leaf/Sinar Hy6 (with its added advantages as a integrated system) and at the same time or at a later time fit my Leaf/Phase/Sinar/Imacon back to it?
Thierry or Yair, can you answer this question:
Is it (the Sinar and/or Leaf camera body) or will it be an "open" Plattform? Or is it a road to a "locked in" system?
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Dear ...?
I have been saying (writing) exactly what is in my knowledge (and in this of the company I am working for): we Sinar are selling a camera called Hy6 which will allow to adapt Sinarbacks.
There is another Back manufacturer, Leaf, who has got the rights to sell this camera as well.
The owner of the Hy6 camera project is Jenoptik. In clear words: they have paid and are paying for the R&D and manufacturing costs of this new camera. As such, Jenoptik are the sole to decide who gets the rights to sell this camera.
We said it clearly: at the current time of today, 2 back manufacturers have got the rights to sell this camera. And those 2 back manufacturers have not the rights to decided about another company selling (or NOT selling) it.
Period. It is a simple as that and we have no reason to say different things and no reason to hide things. What will happen tomorrow nobody knows it, and the non-sense would be to speculate and gossip on tomorrow or on may-be's.
I don't think Yair has said anything different. Believe me, we don't have that much time to speak about such things. Running the current business and delivering products (not vaporware) which are satisfying our customers are our first priority.
I think that I (as well as Yair) have been very correct and polite, in all these discussions: we are honestly trying to inform. The least one can expect is to keep this discussion without personal attacks.
Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=91019\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
This is great. A heated argument over who does or does not have the right to sell(or mount their MFDB on) a camera system that for all practical purposes does not even exist yet.
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Dear ...?
I have been saying (writing) exactly what is in my knowledge (and in this of the company I am working for): we Sinar are selling a camera called Hy6 which will allow to adapt Sinarbacks.
There is another Back manufacturer, Leaf, who has got the rights to sell this camera as well.
The owner of the Hy6 camera project is Jenoptik. In clear words: they have paid and are paying for the R&D and manufacturing costs of this new camera. As such, Jenoptik are the sole to decide who gets the rights to sell this camera.
We said it clearly: at the current time of today, 2 back manufacturers have got the rights to sell this camera. And those 2 back manufacturers have not the rights to decided about another company selling (or NOT selling) it.
Period. It is a simple as that and we have no reason to say different things and no reason to hide things. What will happen tomorrow nobody knows it, and the non-sense would be to speculate and gossip on tomorrow or on may-be's.
I don't think Yair has said anything different. Believe me, we don't have that much time to speak about such things. Running the current business and delivering products (not vaporware) which are satisfying our customers are our first priority.
I think that I (as well as Yair) have been very correct and polite, in all these discussions: we are honestly trying to inform. The least one can expect is to keep this discussion without personal attacks.
Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=91019\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi
Well said.
Thanks Denis
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If Phase is locked out of the Hy6 then it's probably because they didn't want in
It is not that simple. I dont know the relationships but Jenoptic have ..
-paid for the devleopment of the camera
-own sinar
So the developer of the camera has good reason to lock out a rival
However my guess is that all the cameras will be the same, with a rollei 6000 mount and any back maker who chooses to make a back with that fitting will get a look in
My guees is that the camera is basically a 6000 with no motorwind but 80% the same guts
It is of course passing data about lenses and interestingly a RGB value - not all software may be able to fully utilise this DATA and that is where a lockout may come
Just guesses
What interests me most is multi point AF - just spent another day shooting my H and battling the center only AF with moving horses..
SMM
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My new P45 has a free mount change until December of next year. I am hoping that by then there will be a Phase One Hy6 or compatibility with the Sinar version. Maybe I will be buying the Leaf SLR to put my P45 on. Now that would be an open system!
Thanks for your help here Thierry and Yair. Without you two here we might still be debating the merits of known vs. anonymous posters.
-Eric
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I've been following this thread as a visitor for a while and I registered today just to add some comments on the Hy6 issue.
For at least 25 years I have used Rollei equipment and ever since worrying for the future of that company.
The Hy6 has brought a considerable amount of fresh air and new hopes to the future of F&H and that should be a crucial point
for all rollei pro users.
Little over a year ago I received my first digital back with a rollei mount from Hasselblad ( 528c - 6008AF ). My other
rolleis I usually had as a back-up with film won't accept the digital back, so the next best thing I pretend to do is to get a Hy6 as soon as
possible and to have the 6008AF as a buck-up.
Will the Hy6 accept my Hasselblad back and future up-grades ( 39ms ) ? It probably will if Hasselblad decides to make an adapter for it,
adapters are made by the DB manufacturers, F&H / Jenoptik will have to approve this, there are more than a few Rollei with Imacon/hasselblad
backs that should be taken into account.
F&H has to deliver 1500 cameras a year to Jenoptik ( Sinar-Jenoptic/ Leaf-Kodak ) which is the amount they are capable to manufacture, but should the capacity be
higher then F&H will probably be allowed to sell the Hy6 as a Rolleiflex directly, on the other hand the Hy6 is NOT a digital camera
exclusively, will SINAR and Leaf sell it with a film back ? And what about the lenses ? Will Jenoptic also decide what F&H has to do with the lenses ?
I think it has to be said that F&H has developed the Hy6, not Jenoptic, they gave the money ( 4 m. Euros ) and I consider it not
specially fair to ignore F&H in their press releases, finally regardless what it is printed on the outside on the inside it is F&H.
Ignaz
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Theirry,
As much as manufacturer comment is appreciated, sometimes I think there seems to be an attitude of your either with us 100% or against us when it comes to the forum members questions and the manufacturer response.
Personally, I don't think any of the questions asked about the direction Sinar and Leaf are taking with the HY6 were out of bounds or uncivil.
What was asked by many is what is the process of buying this camera, what is the ability to use it with different backs, even Leaf and Sinar backs.
Will older Sinar backs adapt, will a Leaf back work with the Sinar version of the HY6.
I presently use two brands of digital backs and would like the possibility to use them on the same camera platform so if I ask will a Phase back work on the Leaf version of the HY6 I'm not looking for inside or confidential information, I'm just attempting to get an answer about a very expensive camera decision.
I do find your comment about not selling vaporwear interesting and ironic that it is mentioned in the same thread about a camera platform that today is not available, has no published prices, lens line, or firm date of shipment.
It doesn't mean I believe you are selling vaporwear but as you know in the digital age, pdf's, press releases, promises and annoucements don't always live to the intital hype or the planned delivery dates.
When you signed on and introduced yourself to this forum Yair said "watch out for the sharks".
Unfortunately that seems to be an attitude I find confusing coming from a manufactuer's representative, because what may be perceived by the manufacturer's as sharks are really worthwhile comments and questions asked by current and possibly future customers.
Best,
JR
http://www.jamesrussellphotography.com (http://www.jamesrussellphotography.com)
Dear ...?
I have been saying (writing) exactly what is in my knowledge (and in this of the company I am working for): we Sinar are selling a camera called Hy6 which will allow to adapt Sinarbacks.
There is another Back manufacturer, Leaf, who has got the rights to sell this camera as well.
The owner of the Hy6 camera project is Jenoptik. In clear words: they have paid and are paying for the R&D and manufacturing costs of this new camera. As such, Jenoptik are the sole to decide who gets the rights to sell this camera.
We said it clearly: at the current time of today, 2 back manufacturers have got the rights to sell this camera. And those 2 back manufacturers have not the rights to decided about another company selling (or NOT selling) it.
Period. It is a simple as that and we have no reason to say different things and no reason to hide things. What will happen tomorrow nobody knows it, and the non-sense would be to speculate and gossip on tomorrow or on may-be's.
I don't think Yair has said anything different. Believe me, we don't have that much time to speak about such things. Running the current business and delivering products (not vaporware) which are satisfying our customers are our first priority.
I think that I (as well as Yair) have been very correct and polite, in all these discussions: we are honestly trying to inform. The least one can expect is to keep this discussion without personal attacks.
Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=91019\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Theirry,
As much as manufacturer comment is appreciated, sometimes I think there seems to be an attitude of your either with us 100% or against us when it comes to the forum members questions and the manufacturer response.
Personally, I don't think any of the questions asked about the direction Sinar and Leaf are taking with the HY6 were out of bounds or uncivil.
What was asked by many is what is the process of buying this camera, what is the ability to use it with different backs, even Leaf and Sinar backs.
Will older Sinar backs adapt, will a Leaf back work with the Sinar version of the HY6.
I presently use two brands of digital backs and would like the possibility to use them on the same camera platform so if I ask will a Phase back work on the Leaf version of the HY6 I'm not looking for inside or confidential information, I'm just attempting to get an answer about a very expensive camera decision.
I do find your comment about not selling vaporwear interesting and ironic that it is mentioned in the same thread about a camera platform that today is not available, has no published prices, lens line, or firm date of shipment.
It doesn't mean I believe you are selling vaporwear but as you know in the digital age, pdf's, press releases, promises and annoucements don't always live to the intital hype or the planned delivery dates.
When you signed on and introduced yourself to this forum Yair said "watch out for the sharks".
Unfortunately that seems to be an attitude I find confusing coming from a manufactuer's representative, because what may be perceived by the manufacturer's as sharks are really worthwhile comments and questions asked by current and possibly future customers.
Best,
JR
http://www.jamesrussellphotography.com (http://www.jamesrussellphotography.com)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=91315\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Dear James,
allow me to answer you as following: I have really said it all in my knowledge concerning other backs and manufacturers. Yes, Sinarbacks will have an adapter for the Hy6. I guess it wil be the same for Leaf, but this cannot be said by me. And that's about all what can be said currently, beside the fact that there are 2 back manufacturers on boat.
Rather than speaking about a product which is still in its manufacturing phase and not yet on the market, I have suggested to wait a few weeks (in a much earlier post), until all things are clarified on all sides.
I find all the questions about the Hy6 justified: what I do not like (nobody does) is unrespectful comments like the ones I have read about Yair and myself. I don't think anybody needs and deserves this, when he is trying to be honest. I do myself respect all and everybody, as well as any question, but I do ask in return a little bit respect as well. Those who know me in the market since 17 years can speak about my commitment for a brand and the photographic profession.
Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
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I think that between Thierry and myself, we've already given all the information that is currently available for the public. We cannot speak for neither Jenoptik nor Phase.
The Hy6 and the AFi will come off the same manufacturing line and as far as I know are going to be 100% similiar to each other, except for the badge. So in theory a Sinar back will work on a Leaf camera.
In theory, because Leaf is not intending to sell the camera as a separate item to users of other backs and I believe Sinar's intentions are similiar.
The camera has a new rear mount that was shown at Photokina, it is not the same as any of the current MF cameras and it allows for an easy and secure attachment/ rotation of the back.
The lens mount is similiar to the current 6008 series'. It'll take any of the existing Rollei/ Zeiss/ Schneider AF and non-AF lenses and there is an initial list of newly designed AF lenses that was published (and some were shown already) that will be ready at time of shipping or shortly after.
As for sharks, there was a lot of irony in my comment, however in my own experience, some of these bites do hurt, more so if they come from dolphins.
Yair
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Hi James.
I must admit that Yair is right in the comment about the "sharks".
Of course it is acceptable to ask any type of question to Yair and Thierry, even ones that they cannot answer, but you must admit that there is a more aggressive (shark-like?) attitude in the tone of some of the posts about/to them, which if they were directed to me I would be less polite in reply than they have been.
Because they are "sort-of" un-officially representing their companies, they are going to get from us all expressions of dissatisfaction about their products... and fair enough!
But they shouldn't be attacked for not answering something they either do not know or they are not allowed by their companies to say publicly.
I think we just need to look at the tone in our comments to them and keep them respectful as though they were our clients (which usually piss us off more-so), or other members of the forum.
What say you all?
Andrew
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I'm just a mildly disinterested outsider as any MF purchase by myself is still someways off, but I've been (somewhat amusedly) watching this thread and the basic question seems very simple and still has not been clearly answered: Is the Hy6 back interface going to be universal or are the Sinar etc. versions going to have tweaks (maybe as simple as a pin) to prevent or make difficult mounting of other brands of backs? Simple question and simple answer (yes or no).
- DL
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The Hy6 and the AFi will come off the same manufacturing line and as far as I know are going to be 100% similiar to each other, except for the badge. So in theory a Sinar back will work on a Leaf camera.
That's an answer. This means all the Hy6's will be the same (Rollei, Sinar, Leaf), one platform, one mount, different names. And more importantly, a Leaf will fit on a Sinar, a phase with a Rollei mount will fit on Leaf, etc.
That's all I was interested in. It means lots of choice and it means Leaf & Sinar will only be using the camera as an incentive not as a ball and chain. Bravo.
Thanks, Kipling
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One important issue comes to my mind.
Will Sinar or Leaf for that matter,incorporate in their software,a similar DAC(Digital Apo Correction)
like the Hasselblad H3D39?
I've just purchased an eMotion-75 and I'll be getting the Hy6 when it becomes available.
Or are the new Hy6 lenses that are being designed by Schneider of such good quality,that it doesn't
need that sort of correction?
They sure are pricey enough!
Interesting times ahead.
I would also be very happy,if Phase backs would be available to be used with the Hy6.
The more Hy6's Rollei sells,the quicker we get all the new lenses etc.
Cheers,
Willem.
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As for sharks, there was a lot of irony in my comment, however in my own experience, some of these bites do hurt, more so if they come from dolphins.
Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=91327\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thierry:
I think these little nips of affection just demonstrate how much users like the projected Hy6 system, and how much they would want it to be open ...
Most here are users of digital backs; at least 30 per cent here are Leaf customers, some are happy Sinar customers, many others are prospects. Maybe the voices here should be echoed back to management at your respective companies, rather than ignored ?
You cannot speak freely here about your companies plans, but surely you can make the customer's wishes known? At present the customers seem to very vocally demand that a Hy6 system by Sinar, or Leaf, or Rollei, accept any back, be it Leaf, or Phase or Sinar.
In days gone by, Kodak made both cameras or film; but you could use Kodak film in any camera, and a Kodak camera with any film - and look what the 120 and 35mm standard did for them !
I sincerely hope that you will see nothing offensive in this post, and that you will treat the suggestion I made (providing feedback to management) in the most professional manner.
Edmund
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Thierry:
I think these little nips of affection just demonstrate how much users like the projected Hy6 system, and how much they would want it to be open ...
Most here are users of digital backs; at least 30 per cent here are Leaf customers, some are happy Sinar customers, many others are prospects. Maybe the voices here should be echoed back to management at your respective companies, rather than ignored ?
You cannot speak freely here about your companies plans, but surely you can make the customer's wishes known? At present the customers seem to very vocally demand that a Hy6 system by Sinar, or Leaf, or Rollei, accept any back, be it Leaf, or Phase or Sinar.
In days gone by, Kodak made both cameras or film; but you could use Kodak film in any camera, and a Kodak camera with any film - and look what the 120 and 35mm standard did for them !
I sincerely hope that you will see nothing offensive in this post, and that you will treat the suggestion I made (providing feedback to management) in the most professional manner.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=91368\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi Edmund,
You are absolutely right! Be sure that all such wishes, remarks and requests are duly reported to Sinar by me. That is what I see a professional duty for me.
Thanks for your suggestion and all the best,
Thierry
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What purpose is served by having a Leaf, Phase or Sinar logo on this upcoming camera? Why can't a professional-look color scheme be chosen (a la Contax 645), and ONLY Rollei-branded cameras come off the assembly line.
I would also like to know if camera body and lenses will occasionally need to be updated with firmware. If yes, hopefully it will be a more convenient method than Hasselblad's H series. Also, it would be dreadful if Leaf, Phase and Sinar would issue different camera body firmwares which would prevent inter-operating.
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What purpose is served by having a Leaf, Phase or Sinar logo on this upcoming camera? Why can't a professional-look color scheme be chosen (a la Contax 645), and ONLY Rollei-branded cameras come off the assembly line.
I would also like to know if camera body and lenses will occasionally need to be updated with firmware. If yes, hopefully it will be a more convenient method than Hasselblad's H series. Also, it would be dreadful if Leaf, Phase and Sinar would issue different camera body firmwares which would prevent inter-operating.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=91382\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
There may be good reasons on the distribution side of things, as well as being able to offer customers a complete solution. Psychologically it can make a difference.
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I realize digital back sales are driving the sale of cameras, lenses + accessories, but I think it's just weird to see anything but a Rollei logo on the camera. It's a Rollei, so call it a Rollei. I'd cover with black tape any other logo to avoid having to explain "It's really a Rollei camera, manufactured by Jenoptik, but labeled a Leaf, PhaseOne, or Sinar.
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There may be good reasons on the distribution side of things, as well as being able to offer customers a complete solution. Psychologically it can make a difference.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=91385\")
I think the difference is a matter of perspective.
From the db makers standpoint the HY6 is just a means to sell backs and to have a viable platform that will be available to them. It's a logical business decision when Hasselblad decided to move thier system into a more proprietary platform.
From a photographer's standpoint (at least those of us that came from film) the camera is the first choice, lens options the second, the DB the third, the workflow the fourth.*
If Contax had continued to develope thier system with more lenses, faster focus and maybe even some leaf shutter options, I doubt if the HY6 would have been built, especially since the entry price of the contax is so much lower than the comparable HY6 or H1/2/3.
People have written that the lack of a digial offering killed the contax 645, but I believe the cost and the usability (at the time) of the digital backs is what killed contax.
DB's without lcd's and only 100 iso that cost 30k moved most people to the Canons and I think that is one of the reasons we're where we are today.
Mamiya missed a great opportunity to really be a player and regardless of what mtf charts and graphs show about Mamiya lens quality, few people I know would look forward to working with a Mamiya 645 on a long term basis, if not just because of build quality and feel of the lenses.
IMO
JR
[a href=\"http://www.russellrutherford.com]http://www.russellrutherford.com[/url]
*This order definatley changes once you get into heavy production of thousands of images.
At that point workflow is way more important than anything that happens on the front end.
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OK, that clarifies things a bit; thanks. The remaining questions probably are ones that can only be answered by F&H, Jenoptik and Phase:
(1) Will there be a "generic" Rollei Hy6, to which backs other than Sinar or Leaf can be attached, or are all Hy6 cameras going to be allocated to Leaf and Sinar and sold under their respective brands only? If the latter, then, as Yair noted, the Hy6 platform will efectively (even if not theoretically) be limited to Leaf and Sinar, because neither company plans on selling its Hy6 cameras separately from its own backs. So, even if Phase decided to make its backs available in Hy6 mount, they wouldn't have any cameras to put them on, unless there's a generic Rollei Hy6, OR unless it cuts the same sort of deal as Leaf and Sinar and gets Jenoptik to make Phase-branded Hy6s, which Phase would bundle and sell with its backs.
(2) Does Phase plan on making its backs in Hy6 mount anyway? If not, then all the theorizing about the Hy6 being open to companies beyond Leaf and Sinar is irrelevant, because it seems unlikely that Hassy's going to be interested in the Hy6, and therefore the only remaining back maker left out of the Hy6 bandwagon woud be Phase. (Of course, since there are a LOT of people using Phase backs, it's a pretty big deal whether Phase participates or not)
One other comment: I realize it's not entirely rational, but I really don't like the idea of owning a Leaf, Sinar, or Phase camera. By that, I mean a camera called the Leaf, Phase or Sinar Hy6. Rollei makes cameras. These other companies do not. Thus, the name of the camera should be Rollei. (Yes, I realize there are strong marketing reasons for the back makers to want to "brand" the whole package. I just don't like it for aesthetic reasons.) It'd be like my MacBook Pro being called the IntelBook Pro since it has an Intel chip. Apple makes computers, Intel makes processors.)
The Hy6 and the AFi will come off the same manufacturing line and as far as I know are going to be 100% similiar to each other, except for the badge.
Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=91327\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Yes, I think that except for H, the back-makers have forgotten that while the investment is in the back, it is the camera that is in the photographer's hands. If the bodies are branded and split the temptation to include firmware "special features" will become irresistible - unless the manufactures agree in advance not to do so. As an example, maybe the Sinar will be able to write focus information to the file, while the Leaf will have an enhanced white-balance sensor etc etc.
Edmund
I think the difference is a matter of perspective.
From the db makers standpoint the HY6 is just a means to sell backs and to have a viable platform that will be available to them. It's a logical business decision when Hasselblad decided to move thier system into a more proprietary platform.
From a photographer's standpoint (at least those of us that came from film) the camera is the first choice, lens options the second, the DB the third, the workflow the fourth.*
http://www.russellrutherford.com (http://www.russellrutherford.com)
*This order definatley changes once you get into heavy production of thousands of images.
At that point workflow is way more important than anything that happens on the front end.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=91394\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Another question I have about the camera body: will the battery in the camera grip provide power to whatever digital back is attached?
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Film manufacturers Agfa, Fuji, Ilford, Kodak, Polaroid, Scotch, etc. never offered rebadged professional cameras because they are not camera manufacturers.....SIMPLE. The Rollei logo is a strong brand with a long history, and that's why the upcoming camera should only be called a Rollei. I'd be proud to say "It's a Rollei with Zeiss + Schneider lenses."
Billy
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Nothing wrong in having a Sinar camera..they have been making great cameras since 1948 with the business stretching back to the 1890's.
I know they have not made traditional medium format cameras before but ...
Marc
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Well, I think the back manufacturers are jumping on board as distributors to solve a specific Rollei problem: distribution. How many Rollei 6000 series shooters do you know in the states? Are there not that many because the camera is no good? Of course not. If the back makers can step in and solve some of these distro problems, great.
Another problem with back-specific firmware blends would be rentals. Many pros own a camera and rent backups for specific jobs. It would be a challenge to hunt and pick badies based on firmware maker and version. A generic Hy6 would serve photographers in this regard as well.
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There is very positive caché associated with the Rollei name. I would view it as very positive to have a camera with the Rollei badge, as opposed to Leaf or Phase One or Sinar.
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Hi
This is what I have heard from a few of my "sources" in the past few weeks. I think this answers the questions that have been raised on 5 pages of this post. To me this makes sense as Jenoptik owns Sinar. If you look at the press releases you only see Sinar & Leaf branded cameras on the Hy6 platform.
Thanks Denis
( .... contact(s) at Jenoptik says that only two
DB manufacturers are allowed to use the camera. This leaves Phase out.
I guess Phase at the moment prefer to avoid this subject when asked and
lead their dealers and customers to believe that all options are still
open, but as a matter of fact they are not... )
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Here's something showing a Rollei branded Hy6
http://s_gravesen.perso.libello.com/HY6%20engl..pdf (http://s_gravesen.perso.libello.com/HY6%20engl..pdf)
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This is an excerpt from Phase One's website.
"The new Phase One P+ digital backs are designed to support all medium format, large format and technical cameras."
Not quite sure what "all" means.
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Am I the only one following this thread (heretofore silently) who thinks we've got some amazingly vigorous dead-horse beating going on here?
A lot of hullabaloo over a camera that's not even available to buyers yet, and seemingly we have people making plans based on press releases and glances at prototypes.
Good lord, what's the rush? Be first on your block to own one? Sell all your current gear and await the Advent of Hy6?
Jeepers.
Happy Holidays to all.
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Here's something showing a Rollei branded Hy6
http://s_gravesen.perso.libello.com/HY6%20engl..pdf (http://s_gravesen.perso.libello.com/HY6%20engl..pdf)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=91428\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That's interesting...
I believe I saw a picture a few weeks ago (perhaps in Michael's report?) that was badged "Rollei", not "Rolleiflex" as in the pdf that Carl linked.
It sounds like things are still in a state of flux. Which is not surprising, really.
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That's interesting...
I believe I saw a picture a few weeks ago (perhaps in Michael's report?) that was badged "Rollei", not "Rolleiflex" as in the pdf that Carl linked.
It sounds like things are still in a state of flux. Which is not surprising, really.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=91434\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Steve:
Read what is says at the bottom of the brochure under
"Digital Functionality".
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Steve:
Read what is says at the bottom of the brochure under
"Digital Functionality".
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=91438\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Digital functionality
Camera designed for alternative use of digital backs, primarily of the Sinar and Leaf brands.
I don't pretend to know what that means. It sounds to me like marketingspeak for, "We have deals with Sinar and Leaf. We're not making any statement beyond that here."
Edit to add: OK, there is one REALLY BIG statement that it's making: Both the Sinar and the Leaf backs will operate on the Rolleiflex-badged body. So apparently there in no difference in the back interface or software between the Leaf and Sinar versions of the body.
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Here is the screen capture from the Rollei brochure
[attachment=1410:attachment]
If Rollei made available a camera body with firmware supporting the use of Phase, Leaf, and Sinar, then why would anyone buy the brand specific bodies? You might save a few thousand dollars with a packaged Leaf or Sinar closed system, but you would be very limited in future upgrades, and the resale value would not be as good. Phase may be allowed to sell its own Phase branded Hy6, but I don't see that Leaf or Sinar would like the addition of a universal body by Rollei. I would not be surprised if the contracts between Leaf, Sinar, and Jenoptic don't allow a universal camera to be released. It would be a smart move on their part.
And as for the dead horse... We won't be beating a dead horse, by voicing what we would like in these new camera systems, until after they are on the store shelves and it is too late to make any changes.
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Are we kidding here? I don't care if it says Hyundai on it... as long as its a great camera and takes any back that I could ever want to own or rent.
Jeff
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jeff singer | photography
http://www.jeffsingerphotography.com (http://www.jeffsingerphotography.com)
There is very positive caché associated with the Rollei name. I would view it as very positive to have a camera with the Rollei badge, as opposed to Leaf or Phase One or Sinar.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=91422\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Are we kidding here? I don't care if it says Hyundai on it... as long as its a great camera and takes any back that I could ever want to own or rent.
Jeff
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jeff singer | photography
http://www.jeffsingerphotography.com (http://www.jeffsingerphotography.com)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=91468\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Bingo.
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I realize digital back sales are driving the sale of cameras, lenses + accessories, but I think it's just weird to see anything but a Rollei logo on the camera. It's a Rollei, so call it a Rollei. I'd cover with black tape any other logo to avoid having to explain "It's really a Rollei camera, manufactured by Jenoptik, but labeled a Leaf, PhaseOne, or Sinar.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=91390\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
hi BJNY,
just a little precision, but important: it is a "Jenoptik" camera, manufactured by "Franke & Heidecke" (not Rollei), and labeled Leaf and Sinar. That's the right way to present it.
Best regards,
Thierry
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Hi
This is what I have heard from a few of my "sources" in the past few weeks. I think this answers the questions that have been raised on 5 pages of this post. To me this makes sense as Jenoptik owns Sinar. If you look at the press releases you only see Sinar & Leaf branded cameras on the Hy6 platform.
Thanks Denis
( .... contact(s) at Jenoptik says that only two
DB manufacturers are allowed to use the camera. This leaves Phase out.
I guess Phase at the moment prefer to avoid this subject when asked and
lead their dealers and customers to believe that all options are still
open, but as a matter of fact they are not... )
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=91423\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks Denis,
this is about all what can be said today.
Thierry
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Are we kidding here? I don't care if it says Hyundai on it... as long as its a great camera and takes any back that I could ever want to own or rent.
Jeff:
You have your values in the right place, but I believe you are probably unusual. How many Phase backs do you think would be sold if they only mounted on a camera identical to a Hy6 but that said Bronica on the front, and took Schneider lenses that were branded as Bronica Zenza lenses? (The primary selling point would be that nobody would want to steal it from you.)
Who knows, the way things are going, Phase may have to resurrect the Bronica line to have a platform.
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Jeff:
You have your values in the right place, but I believe you are probably unusual. How many Phase backs do you think would be sold if they only mounted on a camera identical to a Hy6 but that said Bronica on the front, and took Schneider lenses that were branded as Bronica Zenza lenses? (The primary selling point would be that nobody would want to steal it from you.)
Who knows, the way things are going, Phase may have to resurrect the Bronica line to have a platform.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=91481\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
i guess that tops all "what ifs" in this absolutely going nowhere thread....
hcubell: what camera do you want to buy, when and which Dback...maybe someone can help you put it together....but remember if the Hy6 is anywhere near that list or you are planing to shoot anything in the next 6 months, it is not going to happen
no matter how hard you beat the dead horse....the chance of phase coming to this forum and making an announcement one way or another between now and april? are very very slim....
it is so sad that it is these kind of discussions in this forum that get 6 pages of responses....and yes i am guilty as well...merry christmas everyone...