Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Graham Mitchell on November 27, 2006, 10:47:20 pm
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I should be fair and say at the outset that I have never found a dealer to be helpful or add any value whatsoever, and that is across all products not just photography so I am already quite biased against dealers. (Oh the stories I could tell...)
Anyone looking for a medium format digital back should know what I mean.
80% of my emails are never returned. Are they making so much money that they don't need the extra business?
Why oh why is no-one publishing prices? Does the price depend on whether you play golf with the dealer on weekends?
Why do they insist on offering deals like "$32K back, but $20K with any old digital back"? Why waste our time by making us buy old backs on ebay just to present to them to get the discount, so that they can throw the back in the bin (or stick it back up on ebay to do another lap)? Why not just come up with a competitive price in the first place?
I just spent 2 hours on the net trying to find a place that lists a price for the Rollei 6008 + Sinar e22 bundle. Didn't manage to find anything despite the fact that this deal has been out for a while now.
Sinar is supposed to be offering a pre-order deal on the Hy6. I went to every Sinar dealer's website worldwide and there's not a single mention of the deal. In fact only 2 of them even mention the Hy6 as 'upcoming'. The rest are silent. What's the point in having an offer if your distribution network won't tell their customers about it??
Hmm...
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Why do they insist on offering deals like "$32K back, but $20K with any old digital back"? Why waste our time by making us buy old backs on ebay just to present to them to get the discount, so that they can throw the back in the bin (or stick it back up on ebay to do another lap)? Why not just come up with a competitive price in the first place?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=87467\")
Graham,
I do agree with you about these silly discount policies. Just discount the back, name the price, and sell it.
Having said that, I know Dave Gallagher and Steve Hendrix personally. Both are fine people. Both are service-oriented. I have bought backs from both men. Both will go beyond the call of duty if you are fair and courteous and professional towards them.
Recently, with Dave, I drove to Atlanta, brought my Canons and tripod, and set up my camera next to the P30 and P45. We shot side by sides, tethered to a G5, checking focus and color and moire as we shot. He had Profoto packs and heads, sitting there, ready to go; ready to test away.
Steve has come to my home and brought backs with him. He's always within a cell phone's range, if you need something. I know recently, with Michael Kravit, you have no idea how he jumped thru hoops to make sure Michael was happy.
I know you can't drive to Atlanta, and I don't know the warranty/service issues if you bought from the U.S., but if it's at all doable, I suggest them, without hesitation. Both guys can be found through this LL forum.
And for the record, I have no connection to them whatsoever, other than being friends and business acquaintences. I have no agenda here.
Mark Tucker, [a href=\"http://www.marktucker.com]http://www.marktucker.com[/url]
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Hi Mark, I have no reason to doubt your experiences. The 'try before you buy' facility could be useful to some, if you live within striking distance of a dealer. I live in a country with no Sinar dealer, so there's really not much they can offer me except a good price and to put the right address on the box when they ship it
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Hi Mark, I have no reason to doubt your experiences. The 'try before you buy' facility could be useful to some, if you live within striking distance of a dealer. I live in a country with no Sinar dealer, so there's really not much they can offer me except a good price and to put the right address on the box when they ship it
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=87471\")
Graham,
I don't know what country you are in but a word of advice from someone who owns nearly 80 grand in digital cameras.
1. Go with the camera/back with the most stable platform. Forget about lcd's or software promises, camera bundles to come, go with who has the most stable option today so you can concentrate on photography and not firmware updates. Unless your paid to be a beta tester, don't be a beta tester.
2. Spend a day on the phone, cash in hand talking to dealers. I promise you it won't take too many calls until you find someone that shoots straight and gives you a solid price.
Mark Tucker gave you the name of two dealers that are honest and sell product and they are both worth the plane flight to meet with.
As I've said before medium format is in dire need of more transparency. The company that wins is the company that will offer answers, real solutions with real time deadlines and no excuses.
Same for the dealers.
IMO
JR
[a href=\"http://www.jamesrussellphotography.com]http://www.jamesrussellphotography.com[/url]
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The distance from Atlanta to Amsterdam is just a little farther than San Francisco to Atlanta . Ok i know there are some issues related to going across the borders but I have had good dealings with Steve Hendrix even though I have never met him...
Graham,
I don't know what country you are in but a word of advice from someone who owns nearly 80 grand in digital cameras.
1. Go with the camera/back with the most stable platform. Forget about lcd's or software promises, camera bundles to come, go with who has the most stable option today so you can concentrate on photography and not firmware updates. Unless your paid to be a beta tester, don't be a beta tester.
2. Spend a day on the phone, cash in hand talking to dealers. I promise you it won't take too many calls until you find someone that shoots straight and gives you a solid price.
Mark Tucker gave you the name of two dealers that are honest and sell product and they are both worth the plane flight to meet with.
As I've said before medium format is in dire need of more transparency. The company that wins is the company that will offer answers, real solutions with real time deadlines and no excuses.
Same for the dealers.
IMO
JR
http://www.jamesrussellphotography.com (http://www.jamesrussellphotography.com)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=87475\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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1. Go with the camera/back with the most stable platform. Forget about lcd's or software promises, camera bundles to come, go with who has the most stable option today so you can concentrate on photography and not firmware updates. Unless your paid to be a beta tester, don't be a beta tester.
The company that wins is the company that will offer answers, real solutions with real time deadlines and no excuses.
Graham,
James is right. Do not bet "on the come". Do not believe any promises for future features or roadmaps, because Phase and Leaf both have forfeited any trust in their word, long ago. Buy what works TODAY. Not next April, or at Photokina, or PMA, or whatever. Buy what already has a proven track record.
And, as much as I like Yair and feel sorry for Leaf's plight right now, in my opinion, the company to go with is Phase One, due to lackluster software with Leaf 10. Once in a job, the software is as important as the back, and since we've all tested these backs and not found a nickel's difference in the file quality in each of them, the remaining variable is the software, and that's where Phase takes a commanding lead.
The only other option, since you're in Europe, might be Sinar/Jenoptik/whatever. I know several people who love their Sinar back. But since we're in the U.S., we don't see much of Sinar over here.
Good luck.
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Not next April, or at Photokina, or PMA, or whatever. Buy what already has a proven track record.
We all get sucked into the "to come" and all the manufacturer's have done it to us.
Phase with their better lcd "to come", leaf with their software "to come" hasselblad with dng, or high iso or now full frame and wide angle lenses "to come". Even Canon and Nikon have a "to come" list whether it's full frame, a decent 50mm lens, or a higher megapixel count.
Don't get caught up in this, because you can lose you focus. (no pun intended)
As photographers, our job is to make photographs, not test cameras.
I currently own two digital backs from one manufacturer. The old one works fine, the new one doesn't. the new one requires the newest softwareware/firmware, but if I plug the old one into the computer it also uploads the newest firmware which wrecks it.
So now I have a new one that doesn't work and an old one that is hobbled.
Fortunately, I can throw away all the new software, go back to a previous version and make the "old" digital back fully functional again, though the new one is now just a paper weight and I can forget about ever updating the old one with newer software features and even faster computers.
See what I mean by go with the most stable workflow.
For you it might be different, but I suggest testing them.
I use to think it took months to learn these systems and I now revise that thought. In my opinion if you can't make one of these cameras files look good in two days of trying, then it's the wrong camera.
Sure, you can take a phase, leaf, hasselblaed or sinar file from any current camera and with enough work match them almost exactly . . . . but why? Some files take 20 corrections some take 2 . . . go for the 2.
Find a dealer that will let you test or offer a 100% money back gaurantee. Spend two days shooting and one night processing.
If you can get a few hundred pretty files batched processed in a resonable period then that is probably the system for you.
IMO
JR
http://www.jamesrussellphotography.com (http://www.jamesrussellphotography.com)
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Find a dealer that will let you test or offer a 100% money back gaurantee. Spend two days shooting and one night processing.
That would be ideal but given my location that would mean:
i) flying to city with enough dealers of the big 4 manufacturers
ii) paying for a hotel for a few nights
iii) rent studio and maybe even model
iv) all the hassle involved in organising to shoot several backs together
Such a test could cost $1-2K. I am only in the market for a used 22MP back, so such a test would be disproportionately expensive.
I just have to learn what I can from forums such as this one.
p.s. I have limited my search for the time being to Sinar or Hasselblad backs as they are the only ones to provide a 48x36mm back for the Rollei, and if I want to change to a Hy6 later on I only need to swap adapters. Of the two, I'm definitely leaning towards Sinar.
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I'm a dealer. And I have been a photographer who has bought equipment. I return emails and I don't play golf. I have a cel phone that I am available on. I offer in-store/studio/home demos. Or you can rent a back for a day from our full service rental dept and I will credit the rental charge towards the purchase price. Feel like a trip to sunny Southern California? (heh)
We've all been taken by the soon-to-come feature trick. It seems like you can't buy a sanwich these days without being told it will be 25% more tasty by the time you eat it. Shopping for current features is sound advice. Also keep in mind that the 1st line of post-sales tech support is often from the dealer. So make sure your dealer has at least one person who is technically expert in this field.
I hope you find a quality Sinar dealer to work with. Not all dealers stink!
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I tried for a long time go get a sinar P3 with a "matching" digtal back.... Phonecalls, emails, phonecalls, emails.. Yes, he will call you back soon. He is busy a the moment, He is not in... No luck.. The Sinar dealer in Sweden/Norway is aperantly not very eager to sell..
I did end up getting a Mamiya with a Leaf back..
And part of the reason was the dealer. He had been to your studio several times and he was the most honest dealer I have met so far. Not trying to sell his system by telling me how bad and useless the other brands are.. And he answers the phone.. Even at friday afternoons. not sure he is very happy about that, but there is allways "no problem"
I do own a Leaf. But I have used Phase Ones and Hasselblads.. I know how they work. Why do dealers then tell me lies, or "part truth" ? In the end, after spending $xx.xxx do they think I will not find out ?
I demoed a H2D, and I told the dealer I thought the software was a little "clumsy" (?).
The dealer then told me "ohh. well. You are not getting it. This is the most workflow friendly software around." Might be. but not for me.
I do second James Russels advice though. " Unless your paid to be a beta tester, don't be a beta tester."
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Graham,
If the dealers in your country fail to provide what you require, you should contact the manufacturer's rep who's in charge of your country and ask for his/ her advice.
If they care and believe in their product, they will find you a dealer or they will come in by themselves and spend whatever time is necessary fo you to feel confident in their product.
In my region I have 3 very good dealers, all with experienced photographers working as sales and support people. All are highly professional and commited to their job.
There will always be cases of disputes and unhappy customers and this is where the manufacturer must step in.
If you cannot get this service from the companies whom you are going to spend your money with, they probably don't think that your money is worth the trouble.
We live in a highly competitive market and those who win your trust will win your money, simple!
Yair
[span style=\'font-size:8pt;line-height:100%\']Yair Shahar | Leaf EMEA | Regional Manager |
mob: +44 77 8992 8199 | yair.shahar@kodak.com | www.leaf-photography.com
[/span]
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Graham,
If the dealers in your country fail to provide what you require, you should contact the manufacturer's rep who's in charge of your country and ask for his/ her advice.
If they care and believe in their product, they will find you a dealer or they will come in by themselves and spend whatever time is necessary fo you to feel confident in their product.
In my region I have 3 very good dealers, all with experienced photographers working as sales and support people. All are highly professional and commited to their job.
There will always be cases of disputes and unhappy customers and this is where the manufacturer must step in.
If you cannot get this service from the companies whom you are going to spend your money with, they probably don't think that your money is worth the trouble.
We live in a highly competitive market and those who win your trust will win your money, simple!
Yair
[span style=\'font-size:8pt;line-height:100%\']Yair Shahar | Leaf EMEA | Regional Manager |
mob: +44 77 8992 8199 | yair.shahar@kodak.com | www.leaf-photography.com
[/span]
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=87493\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yair,
That is not how it works for most people. You are assuming they already have a relationship with either the manufacturer or their product. Most people will just shy away and go to another dealer that most of the time sells another product.
I think as a manufacturer you should be more on top of this. I have had exactly the same experiences with your dealer over here.
I will send you an email about this later today.
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I just spent 2 hours on the net trying to find a place that lists a price for the Rollei 6008 + Sinar e22 bundle. Didn't manage to find anything despite the fact that this deal has been out for a while now.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=87467\")
Check out Photografica's pricelist: [a href=\"http://www.photografica.com/shop/templates/Group.asp?GroupGuid=4645]http://www.photografica.com/shop/templates...?GroupGuid=4645[/url]
They always put prices up, and fairly quickly. I have chosen them as my dealer for a lot of expensive photo equipment (even though they are in another country,) for the basic fact that Martin (one of the sales rep's) has a lot of knowledge across the board, and never pulls anything. If the product is available, he tells me and then delivers. Equally if it isn't, he tells me when it is available.
It's also nice that the website posts in DKK, EUR, GBP and USD.
Other than that, my experiences are the same as yours, it's amazing how these guys can keep qustomers coming back (do they?)
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In the UK the dealers who do good support are companies that rent the gear too so the HAVE to know how it works
If you ever get to do a side by side of the backs I would beware slightly of JRs advice to pick the one that you get to work within 48 hours
The Eyelike is easy to get the hang of in 48 hours - IF the dealer knows how to do it
MOST DONT
With an Eyelike it can take months - or a 1/2 hour lesson from those in the know
Eyelikes pictures look rubbish 'out of the box' because nothing is added to the file it is flat flat flat
Phase pictures look good out of the box becuase the software adds a look - phase guys often the get real confused trying to turn it all off again so they can build thier own look
When I had the one lock up I ever had with my Eyelike I just rang M Guthman at the factory who talked me through the score (up dating the firmware)
None of these backs are duffers, choose want you want, buy it from somewhere cheap and call the factory or post here if you get in a muddle
It just isnt cost effective for most dealers to be 'across' this kit apart from the rental house dealers
And I think you are very correct to go for a back that is movable to HY6 without going back to the factory for an unkown time or cost
SMM
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what is normal. ... exists a lot of secrecy at times even in the price, it suspect of the equality in the prices of all the manufacturers, (Hassy h3d22 = rolly + em22 = .... ) and if you ask technical information (reciprocity, performance of the color, performance of noise, dynamic range according to the sensibility, noise according to the temperature. ..) besides will see that not even they have it. And in general they will not know about what you are speaking.
I am in the same process that your and itself of what you speak...
valor y al toro amigo
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p.s. I have limited my search for the time being to Sinar or Hasselblad backs as they are the only ones to provide a 48x36mm back for the Rollei, and if I want to change to a Hy6 later on I only need to swap adapters. Of the two, I'm definitely leaning towards Sinar.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=87484\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You can find Hasselblad (and Phase One) backs on www.yfo.se
Prices for backs, upgrades and options are on the site. The site is in swedish, swedish crowns (1 $ = 7.5 SEK) and tax (25%) included so maybe not so practical for you out there.
The Sinar dealers site have no price information at all of their backs.
/Tomas
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I
And I think you are very correct to go for a back that is movable to HY6 without going back to the factory for an unkown time or cost
In my view that thought is the flaw in the process.
There is no known time or cost for an HY6 or a hasselblad H4d or anything that is not in the market today ready to ship and working.
I'm not saying the HY6 won't happen, but buying today with the thought it might be available tomorrow never really works out.
To me anything that is not on the shelf and ready for purchase is just rumor.
I'll say it again, but do not count on anything that is not in the market and even then brand new digital product is more times not ready for use or completely sorted.
These forums are full of instances from Lecia to Nikon and Canon to most of the medium format backs all requiring updates, fixes and workarounds.
Saving money is good, but having a camera or back that does not work for weeks, months, does not give you any real savings.
In fact you can get so caught up in the process of getting it right, your not getting on to real work.
The worst case scenario is saving on a piece of equipment, using it for work only to have issues.
Your clients don't care if firmware 4.3 is not stable, or focus is not obtainable because of a faulty interface.
What is the saying, Penny Wise, Pound foolish?
Be sure the dealer you are working with will allow you to return a faulty product with no questions asked.
JR
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In my view that thought is the flaw in the process.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=87526\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Buying an open platform back is good IMO
While no one thing is certatain the one thing that is certain is a lack of certainty
The Hy6 may come out
The Hy6 may not come out
Hassy might back down on being closed
Hassy may go bust
Phase may go bust
Mam might go bust
Contax might go unbust
Pentax might launch a MF platform with face recognition AF software and a 14 T/S lense and an open back platform (!)
In that climate an 'open back platform' like the Sinar/Eyelike seems to have an advantage - an advantage that MAY end up being no advantage... who knows...
And someone looking to ensure the tranferability of thier Sinar back shoul buy a contax has or man plate to in case Sinar go bust !
SMM
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To me anything that is not on the shelf and ready for purchase is just rumor.
MF digital backs, I have found, is one area where you definitely want to stay WAY behind the curve. Like James says above, and I agree, but I would also go further and say "Don't buy anything that's not already on the shelf, is shipping consistently, is confirmed to be fully featured, and also HAS A PROVEN TRACK RECORD".
Look at what happened with the Aptus 75 -- everyone clamoring to get one, only to have it backfire in many people's faces.
Look at what happened with the Aptus 65 with new firmware -- funky white balances, way off.
Look at what happened with the Leica M8 -- same deal, and now, black pants are magenta, and you're facing an official Recall.
I'm sure all these people building these backs are working their tails off to get it right. But we must remember, in the big picture, we're still pretty much in the infancy of digital backs. As knowledgeable as these people are, who are designing them and constructing them, with anything new, surprises are going to happen along the way. It's just where we are in the process.
So take that rule, and apply it toward your back of choice. I just bought a P45, and I actually bought a P45 Plus, and I have a P45 as a "long term loaner" til my Plus arrives. But I had to be clear with myself -- if this P45 Plus never ships, would I be happy just shooting this P45, and using the current 3.76 software? And the answer is a resounding Yes. The P45 does have a solid track record. And when set to compressed Small, you can shoot people very quickly. And when you open the files, your jaw drops when you see the detail.
If I was a Leaf shopper, I'd be looking at that Aptus 22. It's the one with the proven track record. If I was a Phase shopper, pretty much all of them are solid at this point.
One other note that I finally had to reconcile -- None of them are perfect. None of them. There will be sacrifices and compromises with anything you chooose. And some of the compromises are relatively major. If you want easy and bulletproof, choose Canon. Pure and simple. I am a walking testament to that. But I kept having a yearning to get back to medium format, and I chose Phase. Is it perfect? No. Is it like walking around with a giant drum scanner, shooting one frame per second? Absolutely. Gorgeous color, great software, and amazing detail.
Just one opinion.
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Buying an open platform back is good IMO
While no one thing is certatain the one thing that is certain is a lack of certainty
The Hy6 may come out
The Hy6 may not come out
Hassy might back down on being closed
Hassy may go bust
Phase may go bust
Mam might go bust
Contax might go unbust
Pentax might launch a MF platform with face recognition AF software and a 14 T/S lense and an open back platform (!)
In that climate an 'open back platform' like the Sinar/Eyelike seems to have an advantage - an advantage that MAY end up being no advantage... who knows...
And someone looking to ensure the tranferability of thier Sinar back shoul buy a contax has or man plate to in case Sinar go bust !
SMM
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=87530\")
And the world might end tomorrow. That's not the point.
I'm not being brand specific here, or weighting my views towards any company.
Still, I can tell you from experience that what is said on a pdf and what really happens in the real world is much different.
You can make ANY digital file look good if it's shot properly. Making 4,000 of them look good is another matter and when it comes time to buy, saving $3,000 without dealer or manufactuer support really is no savings at all.
Cliff of Samy's in LA comes on these forums and his tag line says, Phase, Hasselblad and Leaf dealer.
Great.
Now let's ask Cliff if you can come to LA test (outside of the store) a P-30, a A-65 and a H3D.
Can you shoot 1000 files with each camera.
Does cliff have a software download for each platoform and can you take those 3,000 files back to your studio or hotel room and process them overnight, by correcting color, exposure and tone to get web galleries up the next morning.
And if you do buy let's say the _____ and get back home and all of a sudden you learn that the latest update of the software renders your back 40 pt.s green, will Cliff let you return the camer/back for a full refund?
All I am saying is buying today with the hope of moving to a new camera that no one has actually shot an image with is putting a lot of faith into a pdf.
JR
[a href=\"http://www.russellrutherford.com/]http://www.russellrutherford.com/[/url]
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Hey Graham,
I feel your frustration, I think the concept of dealers and especially dealer support is completely antiquated. It’s impossible for any dealer or anyone on his staff to put in 50 to 60 hours a week shooting or learning the equipment and the software – they are there to sell not shoot. Sure they know all the basics but they don’t have the pressure of ADs crowded around the monitor or thousands of files to get out by breakfast.
I would get your cash in hand and contact the top 5 dealers in Europe. Then low ball them, offer the price YOU want to pay. I would do this at the end of a month when their sales totals are about to come out. If they want to do business great if not move on to the next one. Be ruthless, this is your hard earned money not theirs. Forget about paying a premium for dealer support, they just send things to the manufacturer to be fixed. Most of the manufacturers are reachable directly. As for software and equipment questions, you will know more than the manufacturer’s rep in a short time just using it and asking questions on this forum or a Sinar one.
I bought an Imacon back last year from someone in Dallas after talking to both of the major camera stores here in Los Angeles. Their prices weren’t that great and they offered very little in the way of practical knowledge. (Yes, they knew the basics.) I joined the flexframe yahoo forum and anytime I have question I post there. My question’s are answered quickly by pros who been there, done that. I’ve also had very good luck with direct manufacturer support, I had rental leaf back that I had problems with – I called leaf direct and they helped me fix the problem immediately.
Peace,
Weldon
P.S. Note to the manufacturers: The huge virtually untapped resource is the pro photographers who are out there beta testing your equipment everyday. I would spend more time talking to them than the marketing people.
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Graham
I think all of the above comments make alot of sense..
Its interesting listening to the thoughts of the owners from the US and the guys in Europe.. I think because of the market size they clearly have an advantage.. yes I know what you mean by uninformative websites and unreturned calls..
it seems over here we are second class citizens.
regarding Sinar which you seem to be swaying towards.
I have to say the manufacturer as in jenoptic are immensly helpful. maybe its worth giving them a call. certainly if you have any issues regarding problems during ownership they are more helpful than the dealers.
I had an experience which also will highlight the fact that proven technology is the way forward. I ordered and recieved an emotion22 when they were first announced.. actually recieved it 7 months after ordering it..
was it the dream bit of kit I wanted.. fully untethered, versitile replacement to my dslr's... nope.
it was a headache, the software was incomplete, the noise issues were LOUD, the iso was only good at its lowest, altogether It was a nightmare... any exposures in natural/ambient light over 2 secs were pointless.
while I was trying to work it out, the dealer changed, as the name did to sinar.. were they helpful.. nope.. all the had was the sinar software which was even more incomplete. (infact I got more from help of a contributor to RG than anyone else.. it was life saving)
I explained the issues and they suggested a trade in to a sinar 54m.. with a completely unfavourable price. I went bananas.
Thats when I had long conversations direct with the manufacturer and they were incredibly helpful.. more probably than they had to be, I ended up with an M22 as well as the emotion to cover all bases. to be fair to the dealer now.. they are more helpful.
however now the emotion22 now is a much more complete unit.. countless firmware and software upgrades have made it a much more versitile machine. almost as good as the one on the pdf ..almost but not quite! The M22 is a dream and worked straight out the box... but then that was an older developed, proven back!
I don't think this is unique in the world of digital backs.. the advice offered by all the other contributors here makes huge sense..
As for cameras and a new machine with carlos fandango lenses.. well wait till you can hold it and try it before you buy it, I wish i had done before I got the H1.. that mirror slaps harder than my wife on a bad day!
buy proven technology. and more importantly get a relationship with the man that sells it to you.. because you will need it
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Thanks to everyone for the responses so far.
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Cliff of Samy's in LA comes on these forums and his tag line says, Phase, Hasselblad and Leaf dealer.
Great.
Now let's ask Cliff if you can come to LA test (outside of the store) a P-30, a A-65 and a H3D.
Can you shoot 1000 files with each camera.
Does cliff have a software download for each platoform and can you take those 3,000 files back to your studio or hotel room and process them overnight, by correcting color, exposure and tone to get web galleries up the next morning.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=87536\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Sure. Will I pay for a studio rental, models, lights and grip? Nope. Will I guarantee that you can use all 3 of these systems on the same day? No, not really. But I will make every effort to get this kit into your hands to try out. I can also have the area sales reps for Phase, Hasse and Leaf come to you with their eqpt. I do these things regularly.
I could also complain about "Frustrations with purchasers". I wish I had people come in and ask to make 1000 files to test process and deliver. This is what I recommend. I have only ever had one potential customer shoot a large quantity of files and test the processing parameters and work with the resulting files. We do rent the backs and apply the rental fee to the purchase price, but generally these customers have made their decision and simply want the rental to confirm this or need it for some job right away.
The sales reps I work with are great guys and real professionals. The Leaf guy is on our floor for an entire day every week. Phase and Hasse are in regularly as well and spend a lot of time at local studios. Lack of pre-sales support is just not something that is a problem around here.
It’s impossible for any dealer or anyone on his staff to put in 50 to 60 hours a week shooting or learning the equipment and the software – they are there to sell not shoot. Sure they know all the basics but they don’t have the pressure of ADs crowded around the monitor or thousands of files to get out by breakfast.
I started and operated one of the largest digital capture companies here in Los Angeles. Before that I shot advertising and editorial. I know what photo shoots are like and what photographers and clients want/need. If your dealer can't offer this type of professionalism, demand better or go elsewhere. We work very hard here at Samy's to provide excellent pre- and post-sale customer service.
I think I've contributed enough to this thread now, I don't want to turn this into an advertising spot. Feel free to contact me off thread if anyone has questions or concerns.
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All I am saying is buying today with the hope of moving to a new camera that no one has actually shot an image with is putting a lot of faith into a pdf.
JR
http://www.russellrutherford.com/ (http://www.russellrutherford.com/)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=87536\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
My point about going for a more open back is this..
I shoot a hassy H1. PERSONALLY for me it has a problem which is a lack of multipoint AF.
I am happy with it. It works. Its firmware is probably 1990 version 1.000001 - I dont care takes pictures
I will be happy to use it way beyond when all the rubber drops off it
HOWEVER
I would quite like multipoint AF and IF a camera system comes out with this I might be interested in migrating to that system (once it has been around for a few months and been 'ironed')
At that point I will be pleased, if this system is not a Blad, that I can change system easily
I am not suggesting that persons should bank on the future
I am suggestting a way of not getting stuck in the past if the future comes right
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Software.
The Eyelike software (again I am probably 8 upgrades out of date) just needs configuring properly. A process that my dealer didnt understand - but I could teach someone to be up and running in 1/2 a day
I am just warning of shooting Phase and Sinar next to each other and being amazed by the Phase
The files are about even when dealt with properly
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You dont know what problem is! If you where living in Croatia, you would know what problem is! Here distributers don't know anything, and dont want sell anything....
PS: Sorry for my very very very very BAD English!
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I guess I am jumping in here a bit late.
Steve Hendrix of PPR Atlanta is a serious, dedicated, responsive and caring dealer. Without Steve I would probably have been in deep due to the problems I had with the Leaf Aptus 75.
Steve stood behind the product he sold me, he arranged for 4 or 5 replacement units (I forget now, probably by choice as it became pretty traumatic) and finally gave me a 100% credit for the Aptus 75 and got me a Hasselblad H3D with some very creative pricing.
There are definitely good dealers around, they may be scare, but they are around.
Steve Hendrix is one of them and if anyone is considering a digital MF back or camera I would highly recommend him as one of the very best.
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mkravit, What made you choose the H3D? Why chose that over the Phase? I still don't know what to do with my Leaf Aptus 75and it list of problems?
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mkravit, What made you choose the H3D? Why chose that over the Phase? I still don't know what to do with my Leaf Aptus 75and it list of problems?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=87779\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It was a tough decision......very tough.
After 9 months of frustration, error messages, centerfolds, etc. I had just about had it. I looked at the P45 and talked with Dave Gallagher in depth. Dave is also a very nice and knowledgeable man.
I went with the Hasselblad for a number of reasons;
1. I spoke with the President of Hassy and was left with a warm and cozy feeling with respect to committment and development of new and innovative product. He was clear that in order to produce and provide the best image quality and product companies now need to push the envelope and their products. In order to do this and not fall victim to the current rash of issues all manufacturers will be moving toward more proprietary systems.
2. I got together with some friends and we tested the Hasselblad, Phase, Leaf and Emotion backs side by side in real world conditions. Models, lighting, makeup, wardrobe, etc. Images were processed and evaluated on 30" Cinema Displays. The bottom line is that all of the current offerings produce excellent images and results. The days of people saying the Leaf is more "film like" ended with the P45, CFH-39 and Aptus 75. After shooting and evaluating many images we could not tell the difference between the files.
3. I considered the fact that the H3D would need to be tethered or need the New Image Bank to shoot on my ALPA, this was not a problem for me as I am now shooting most of my architecture with a MacBook Pro for composition and focus. For fully portable untethered work I use the H3D body and back.
4. We also compared the same images and scenes shot with Zeiss (Contax), Mamiya and Hassy HC glass, after processing and review the images were virtually indestiguishable. In fact, a number of my friends selected the Hasselblad HC15o to have the sweetest out of focus charateristics.
5. And finally, I wanted to go into a system and get away from a camera made by one manufacturer and a back made by another. I want a system that is designed to work together from the start.
6. I thought about the AFi or Hy6, but right now and at least for the next 6-9 months they are unavailable. So for me, at this time the Hasselblad was right choice.
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Graham,
I do agree with you about these silly discount policies. Just discount the back, name the price, and sell it.
http://www.marktucker.com (http://www.marktucker.com)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=87470\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It may seem the same, but when it comes to raising the price back, it is much easier and customer-friendly to change (or eliminate) the special offer. US car manufactures do this frequently with "factory rebates." But once the price is cut, the customer wants to know what extra he getting for the higher price.
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Graham,
It may seem crazy everyone here telling you to travel such far distances for your back but the reality is you may have to..if the states is to far then here in the u.k. there is robert white who have the rollei emotion 75 budle so perhaps also can get the e22 bundle you are after as well as mamiya zd/ hasselblad HD3 / sinar), teamwork for phase one and calumet for leaf...calumet and teamwork both in london and robert white a two hour train journey away.
At least if buying within europe you will not be hit by any import duties..I assume.
The point is, and I am sure you know this, that wether you earn a small amount or huge amount from your photography the choice of db has to be right so once you get it..it just works and you can get on and shoot without having to make numerous phone calls, software upgrades, etc..but in case you do then having bought face to face with that dealer will be a great thing and give you confidence in your purchase..and future purchases also..especailly if you are looking to the hy6 in the future.
Good luck with it all..
Marc
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I would get your cash in hand and contact the top 5 dealers in Europe. Then low ball them, offer the price YOU want to pay. I would do this at the end of a month when their sales totals are about to come out.
Ok, I just emailed 53 Sinar dealers worldwide
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Ok, I just emailed 53 Sinar dealers worldwide
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=87869\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
please keep me updated with any good offer on Hy6/sinarback22mp or sinarback22pm alone
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I also left the Leaf Aptus world. I went back to Phase with a P45 and the files are stunning. Even at 400 which was one of my big concerns. I always shot 400 at @ 250 and 160 @ 100. So the P45 works fine for me. The files are just a tad stupid big but what ever, now I have hard drives instead of shelves full of negatives.
I also had too many problems with my Aptus and H1 combo. My P25 never failed me and was the back up to the A75 and came out to work more often than I liked.
I had a good time with Hasselblad rep but have yet to test it. I may have a go at the P30+ when I test the 800 iso and then sell the P25.
As great as the Leaf guys are the product unfortunately coming from Isreal is not up to par. I have not ever seen a Sinar back so I cannot comment. But as it has been said a million times over on this forum. Test it the best you can at a retail location or take up Samy's on his rental towrds purchase price. I know JR doesn't like Samy's but they ahve been great to me. As I said before I would rather shoot with a Holga the rest of my career than use Fotocare and Calumet UK and US are some of the most incompetent people on the face of the earth, with regards to photography.
Phase has been stunning and world class support. Hasselblad has not stumbled yet on me. Ia m waiting to try it down the line. Their service and support with my H1 & H2 has been stellar and the IMacon support in Washington was perfect on my PII and now PIII.
Best of luck with your decision.
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Ok, I am starting to get some replies to my big mail out. I won't name any individual dealers at this stage - the point of this is to show how inconsistent and confused this market place is and how uninformed or dishonest some dealers are.
One dealer has a used e22 for $14,500.
Another dealer wrote to tell me that I couldn't possibly find an e22 for under $20K. I promptly wrote back to him to tell him about the NEW e75 for ~$20,500. I wonder whether he will have anything to say about that.
A few others have replied that they have nothing.
80% haven't replied at all. Big surprise.
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We live in a highly competitive market and those who win your trust will win your money, simple!
Yair
[span style=\'font-size:8pt;line-height:100%\']Yair Shahar | Leaf EMEA | Regional Manager |
mob: +44 77 8992 8199 | yair.shahar@kodak.com | www.leaf-photography.com
[/span]
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=87493\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Just to add my .2 worth, I recently acquired the Leaf Aptus 75 from the Leaf rep in Hamburg/ Germany.
Time will tell how good the service provided will be in the future, should issues come up and a quick, no-questions-asked solution is needed, as it is pretty much the standard in the pro analogue world over here.
So far, my (pre-purchase) experience has been nothing but positive; my dealer would come to my studio on short notice, let me test the back and accessories for a few days, and give me no-bs replies to all my questions on possible shortcomings of his product.
As pricing seems to be a hot topic for many, let me add that he gave me a good price on the back with several ks worth of goodies thrown in for free, I didn't even have to bargain.
Not that I dared after recieving his quote .
I agree that trust in his advice and possible support in the future - knocking on wood - played a major role in my decission process and sent my money his way.
As I only now switched to digital, and do not have much experience yet, being comfortable with my dealer is key to me.
On a non-related note, if only Leaf got his 10.x software straight ( and dump Java... ) , and granted me access to their forum, I'd be one happy camper .
Best,
Tom
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Ok, I am starting to get some replies to my big mail out. I won't name any individual dealers at this stage - the point of this is to show how inconsistent and confused this market place is and how uninformed or dishonest some dealers are.
One dealer has a used e22 for $14,500.
Another dealer wrote to tell me that I couldn't possibly find an e22 for under $20K. I promptly wrote back to him to tell him about the NEW e75 for ~$20,500. I wonder whether he will have anything to say about that.
A few others have replied that they have nothing.
80% haven't replied at all. Big surprise.
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Graham,
I am not surprised that 80% didn't reply: do remember that most what you call "Dealers" are in fact exclusive distributors. They won't reply to such an email sent-out, wthout knowing you and yourself taking more direct contact with themand being more specific. They are bound with contract issues which limits their selling to the country where they are based. And they are getting hundreds of such "email demands", with most being nothing other than a price comparison. I think there time is precious to answer all these demands.
As for price: you forget also that different countries have different distributor structures, with different distribution channels and different costs and therefore different gross margins. That some distributors are ready even to sell one product with less margin and then take a bit more and compensate on another. So don't put them all in the same bag: some are doing their very best to only be able to survice, i'm sure.
Aon
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Graham,
I am not surprised that 80% didn't reply: do remember that most what you call "Dealers" are in fact exclusive distributors. They won't reply to such an email sent-out, wthout knowing you and yourself taking more direct contact with themand being more specific. They are bound with contract issues which limits their selling to the country where they are based. And they are getting hundreds of such "email demands", with most being nothing other than a price comparison. I think there time is precious to answer all these demands.
As for price: you forget also that different countries have different distributor structures, with different distribution channels and different costs and therefore different gross margins. That some distributors are ready even to sell one product with less margin and then take a bit more and compensate on another. So don't put them all in the same bag: some are doing their very best to only be able to survice, i'm sure.
Aon
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=88248\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I am sorry, but responding to an email has NOTHING to do with price policies, distribution channel/ structure etc.
This has a LOT to do with proper and honest business practice...even if the answer is "Sorry but I can't help you"...
Yair
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I am sorry, but responding to an email has NOTHING to do with price policies, distribution channel/ structure etc.
This has a LOT to do with proper and honest business practice...even if the answer is "Sorry but I can't help you"...
Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=88252\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Too right.
If a dealer can not be bothered to write a 15 second email to reply to an email from a prospective customer of a $20k back with all the future business that may entail then I would not feel very positive about that dealer for a purchase and / or future help.
I am very lucky here in the uk with some really good dealers covering most needs..even if some are better than others and some may need a few phone calls to get to the right person!
I think this is why someone in Grahams position may end up having to travel many miles to get the product he wants with good back up...be it the manufacturer or the dealer..we all need the reassurance that as well as good upfront service we can rely on good after sale service when things go wrong.
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I am sorry, but responding to an email has NOTHING to do with price policies, distribution channel/ structure etc.
This has a LOT to do with proper and honest business practice...even if the answer is "Sorry but I can't help you"...
Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=88252\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yair,
you seem to take plaisure each time to slash on all who are not on your side and using different products than yours, and this plaisure makes you sometimes answer to fast!
Please read precisely what I was writing, before answering: I did not say that price policies or distribution channels have something to do with answering an email, BUT with the final price of a product to its enduser!
As for answering emails: you are certainly right that it has to do with respect, agree! I did not deny this.
Aon
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Yair,
you seem to take plaisure each time to slash on all who are not on your side and using different products than yours, and this plaisure makes you sometimes answer to fast!
Please read precisely what I was writing, before answering: I did not say that price policies or distribution channels have something to do with answering an email, BUT with the final price of a product to its enduser!
As for answering emails: you are certainly right that it has to do with respect, agree! I did not deny this.
Aon
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=88258\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I don't understand what is the connection between taking sides, owning products and a normal business practice?
You saidI am not surprised that 80% didn't reply: do remember that most what you call "Dealers" are in fact exclusive distributors. They won't reply to such an email sent-out, wthout knowing you and yourself taking more direct contact with themand being more specific. They are bound with contract issues which limits their selling to the country where they are based. And they are getting hundreds of such "email demands", with most being nothing other than a price comparison. I think there time is precious to answer all these demands.
None of this is an excuse for not replying an email from a prospect!
If I was an AD looking for a photographer for a job, sending 15 emails to potential photographers, needless to say that the ones who answer will get my anttention!
Their "precious time" is not precious if it is not spent on expanding their business by chasing prospects...
This is true in selling cooking books as much as it is is true is selling high-end digital backs...
Yair
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I don't understand what is the connection between taking sides, owning products and a normal business practice?
You saidI am not surprised that 80% didn't reply: do remember that most what you call "Dealers" are in fact exclusive distributors. They won't reply to such an email sent-out, wthout knowing you and yourself taking more direct contact with themand being more specific. They are bound with contract issues which limits their selling to the country where they are based. And they are getting hundreds of such "email demands", with most being nothing other than a price comparison. I think there time is precious to answer all these demands.
None of this is an excuse for not replying an email from a prospect!
If I was an AD looking for a photographer for a job, sending 15 emails to potential photographers, needless to say that the ones who answer will get my anttention!
Their "precious time" is not precious if it is not spent on expanding their business by chasing prospects...
This is true in selling cooking books as much as it is is true is selling high-end digital backs...
Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=88262\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Don't please try to return your answer: you stated that I said that price policies and distribution channels have to do with answering an email with product information. I did not say this at all.
It is not the first time you are distorting posts, interestingly each time from somebody not using your products.
This is what I cannot accept.
For the rest, I did not say the contrary of what you are stating.
Again: read carefully before answering with your own agenda.
Aon
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Yair,
you seem to take plaisure each time to slash on all who are not on your side and using different products than yours, and this plaisure makes you sometimes answer to fast!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=88258\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well, that has not been my impression of Yair's contribution so far.
Best,
Tom
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Aon you are assuming that I know which product you use...wel I don't, as much as I don't know who or where you are or what you do for a living.
You could be using a Holga, a Phase or a Canon and I'd still say that dealers should be responsive, whether they sell cameras, cars or cottage cheese....
Yair
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Aon you are assuming that I know which product you use...wel I don't, as much as I don't know who or where you are or what you do for a living.
You could be using a Holga, a Phase or a Canon and I'd still say that dealers should be responsive, whether they sell cameras, cars or cottage cheese....
Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=88269\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yair,
it is not important who I am, which product i am using, nor with what I am doing a living and where I am doing this living.
Fact is that you have not the right to distort posts: this is a public forum with hundreds if not tausends of people reading what is written.
This is simply unfair and has nothing to do here.
I just read posts and have remembrance of another such issue where I was involved with 2 others posters and when their posts had been distorted or un-true things said.
If you wish to know , you can contact me offline.
Aon
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Khwanaon,
I think you are over-reacting. I couldn't see any distortion or anything improper in Yair's reply.
Edward
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Sorry but I really do not see where this thread is going like this..it's a good thread..as are most here full of valuable inforation and advice..can we not keep it that way now and get back to the matter in hand..anyway, i think discussing cameras cars and cottage cheese means we should have a smile on our faces now!
Marc