Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: pixjohn on November 14, 2006, 02:01:38 am
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I thought I finally solved the centerfold issue with my 3rd Aptus 75 back. I tested the back on my cambo Wide DS and my first test looked clean.
I then shot a project on the new back thinking no centerfold issues, how wrong I was. I did not see the centerline on my 17in Macbook Pro on location, but. When I returned to process the files on my G5 with Sony artisan monitor I see the centerline. The difference from my test to the shoot was time exposure. I was shooting with a Schneider 47xl 4-6 sec exposures.
This is just a never ending issue.
(http://www.johngibbel.com/shot.jpg)
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I thought I finally solved the centerfold issue with my 3rd Aptus 75 back. I tested the back on my cambo Wide DS and my first test looked clean.
I then shot a project on the new back thinking no centerfold issues, how wrong I was. I did not see the centerline on my 17in Macbook Pro on location, but. When I returned to process the files on my G5 with Sony artisan monitor I see the centerline. The difference from my test to the shoot was time exposure. I was shooting with a Schneider 47xl 4-6 sec exposures.
This is just a never ending issue.
(http://www.johngibbel.com/shot.jpg)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85081\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I cannot see it either on my 17" powerbook. I'll take your word that it's there, though - you're the customer whom Leaf has to satisfy.
Edmund
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I cannot see it either on my 17" powerbook. I'll take your word that it's there, though - you're the customer whom Leaf has to satisfy.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85093\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It is definintly there (you may need to calibrate your laptop Edmund).
Im really sorry you have that PixJohn. I have just ordered an Aptus 22... here's hoping the 22's remain free from this type of thing.
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When I returned to process the files on my G5 with Sony artisan monitor I see the centerline. The difference from my test to the shoot was time exposure. I was shooting with a Schneider 47xl 4-6 sec exposures.
Dear Pixjohn,
Just a thought about this- the 47XL is a wide image circle lens designed for film not digital use.
Could that be a contributing factor in the artefacts you are seeing?
I don't use a digital back, but I don't expect this lens to be part of my kit when and if I do get one.
Andrew Parker
Blue Window Ltd
Surrey
UK
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It is definintly there (you may need to calibrate your laptop Edmund).
Im really sorry you have that PixJohn. I have just ordered an Aptus 22... here's hoping the 22's remain free from this type of thing.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85097\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yeah, I see it now. Laptops really aren't a good way to look at images.
Edmund
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Dear Pixjohn,
Just a thought about this- the 47XL is a wide image circle lens designed for film not digital use.
Could that be a contributing factor in the artefacts you are seeing?
I don't use a digital back, but I don't expect this lens to be part of my kit when and if I do get one.
Andrew Parker
Blue Window Ltd
Surrey
UK
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85099\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Schneider does make a 47xl digitar.
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Its the 47xl Digitar.
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sorry!
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Att: andrewparker
Schneider 47XL is optimized for Film & Digital
REGARDS
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Laptops are not perfect indeed however this one is so clear I can see it across the room on my 15" MBP!
Sorry to see this problem has come up again.
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Yeah, I see it now. Laptops really aren't a good way to look at images.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85101\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Edmund,
OK, so you see it. How are you contributing to this problem?
Do you use of own a Leaf MFDB? Why are you so quick to jump in on Leaf defect discussions?
Dude, what is your agenda?
Inquiring minds want to know.
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Edmund,
OK, so you see it. How are you contributing to this problem?
Do you use of own a Leaf MFDB? Why are you so quick to jump in on Leaf defect discussions?
Dude, what is your agenda?
Inquiring minds want to know.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85253\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hey GhostDancer,
You seem stressed once more ! What back do you shoot with ? Do you have a website where we can see your work ? I really think you're taking life too seriously. Everybody's entitled to an opinion aren't they ? If you don't like a topic don't read it, I don't !
PeteStreet
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Hey GhostDancer,
You seem stressed once more ! What back do you shoot with ? Do you have a website where we can see your work ? I really think you're taking life too seriously. Everybody's entitled to an opinion aren't they ? If you don't like a topic don't read it, I don't !
PeteStreet
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85286\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Don't know about GD but I have been there and had my share of MFDB issues. I can tell you from experience that Leaf is working very to resolve the issues. We are on the cutting edge of the technology and as such a year from now I think everything will be different.
I think everyone who is suffering through these issues is a bit stressed. I see no need to brand bashing or unhelpful comments.
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Leaf might be working through the issue, but does that mean I should have to work through their issues. Does this mean they will give me the next generation back when they solve all the issue? Why should I pay for a $30,000 digital back and be a guinea pig.
I will say they do try to help, but it’s a never-ending circle.
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Don't know about GD but I have been there and had my share of MFDB issues. I can tell you from experience that Leaf is working very to resolve the issues. We are on the cutting edge of the technology and as such a year from now I think everything will be different.
I think everyone who is suffering through these issues is a bit stressed. I see no need to brand bashing or unhelpful comments.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85311\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Michael,
I know you've had your problems with your back as I've read about them here on this forum. Actually it's thanks to this Forum that these problems are brought to the attention of photographers who are about to buy one of these backs or indeed to those that already have them and are discovering that other owners are suffering the same problems as themselves. If it wasn't for this forum, and eternal thanks to MR for it, would we have ever found out about all these quirks and drawbacks? I doubt it in my opinion. All the manufacturers should be more open and transparent in their products failings under certain shooting conditions.
If your back is now working 100% why is the fault still occurring on other peoples? Also I reckon if anyone is extolling the virtues of one back or another lets see what they shoot with theirs. I detect some hidden agendas going on here, for and against some products. How can we take a poster seriously if we can't see their work?
PeteStreet
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Michael,
I know you've had your problems with your back as I've read about them here on this forum. Actually it's thanks to this Forum that these problems are brought to the attention of photographers who are about to buy one of these backs or indeed to those that already have them and are discovering that other owners are suffering the same problems as themselves. If it wasn't for this forum, and eternal thanks to MR for it, would we have ever found out about all these quirks and drawbacks? I doubt it in my opinion. All the manufacturers should be more open and transparent in their products failings under certain shooting conditions.
If your back is now working 100% why is the fault still occurring on other peoples? Also I reckon if anyone is extolling the virtues of one back or another lets see what they shoot with theirs. I detect some hidden agendas going on here, for and against some products. How can we take a poster seriously if we can't see their work?
PeteStreet
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=85370\")
I do not see any information about where I can see your work!?
[a href=\"http://www.willow.no]willow.no[/url]
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It is definintly there (you may need to calibrate your laptop Edmund).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85097\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I must say, this is a classic. The guy runs a website about monitor calibration, owns no medium format back, can't see the line on his monitor, but then still wants to comment here? Classic.
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I must say, this is a classic. The guy runs a website about monitor calibration, owns no medium format back, can't see the line on his monitor, but then still wants to comment here? Classic.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85395\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I don't think this type of personal attack is constructive or appropriate.
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I do not post here very often, but I do follow medium format threads regularly - especially because I do own an Aptus 75. Actually I have my third replacement back now and I am still waiting to get one without defects.
And that is what it is: the centerline is a DEFECT as well as the colorcast is one. Because there are backs which do not show the centerline nor visible colorcast. as far as I know mkravit has received such a (replacement-) back - correct me if I am wrong.
So - logically - it MUST be a hardware / sensor problem and most likely it has to do with the lack of proper quality measures at Dalsa.
I do understand that those defects do not occur with all backs from Leaf and if they occur they do it in a different way for each individual back (that I know from my own testing of the three backs I got up to now).
What I also understand is that Leaf is trying quiet hard to solve thoe issues together with Dalsa.
But what I find hard to deal with is the communication policy of Leaf where at least in my case I get the feeling that I am the one who has to follow up, to ask again and again and to be greatful for Leaf's efforts to send me a back without defects "as soon as they can find one"
Frank
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But what I find hard to deal with is the communication policy of Leaf where at least in my case I get the feeling that I am the one who has to follow up, to ask again and again and to be greatful for Leaf's efforts to send me a back without defects "as soon as they can find one"
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85401\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
If digtal capture has any issue, it's communication. Hasselblad, Phase and Leaf seem hard pressed to get their message out to the actual users. Sinar . . . well I don't know who owns Sinar and have seen so little real information on their product in the U.S. that it would be hard to consider it a viable brand.
Actually dslr digtial is not much better. Does anyone really know if Canon will have a newer higher mp camera, will Nikon go full frame, will Pentax ever make their reported almost mf dslr, what is the deal with the Mamiya ZD and backs? Even Leica is telling users to "wait two weeks" before they have a response. I wonder if Lecia will wait two weeks before they cash the checks they received from the M-8?
All of these companies are very good with the positive message, showing glossy samples and talikinng about better workflows, higher iso, new software, but few really get to the actual use of the cameras and the response to issues.
Issues can be time consuming, costly and very frustrating. Nothing is worse than calling a tech service rep and saying my ______ has a color cast issue and hear the response, "yea we've seen this before". Actually I take that back it is more frustrating to hear, "We haven't seen that", only to read 20 reports of the same issue online.
The thing is I know all of these companies are working hard to make good product, but sometimes I wonder how they muddle their message. I've also had issues with Leaf and though they were eventually worked out, it was a real chore for a few months. Leaf is not alone as Phase as produced some boner software upgrades and even though the Hasselblad is a much improved product, the H3d I tested had very red previews on the lcd and in the software thumnails.
When I look at the blad pdfs the lcd previews look very neutral (insert big grin).
I've written this dozen of times but all of the manufacturers would do themself a service by sitting next to a working photogrpaher for a full weeks project, from pre production to final delivery.
Watch a photographer reinstall software, test for issues and upload firmware while they try to answer 12 e-mails and take 3 phone calls.
Listen to the response from clients when you show a red lcd preview, or even a pixelated lcd preview and hear the photographer say "don't worry, it will look good on the computer". Watch the computer previews come up 40pts. green, see the room gasp and then watch the digital tech start running through the series of wb options trying to fix it.
Then take it to the 10pm to 2pm shift where 60 selects must be processed out of 4,000 raw files and at this point I think any manufacturer would learn volumes.
At some point all any of us want is a product that works and is realiable and more importantly easier to use. With digital capture we have all taken on a huge task of beocming photographer, film maker and lab and any issue, even a small one can make the difference between going to bed at midnight, or not going to bed at all.
For me the manufactuerer that is the most proactive and the most transparent will be the one that eventually succeeds.
IMO
JR
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Listen to the response from clients when you show a red lcd preview, or even a pixelated lcd preview and hear the photographer say "don't worry, it will look good on the computer". Watch the computer previews come up 40pts. green, see the room gasp and then watch the digital tech start running through the series of wb options trying to fix it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85419\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
This is really to the core of the matter. My Leaf is about 40 points off towards green, so no red display but an ugly green display!
This is horrible when a client is there on the shoot, they never forget the green and will think they see it on every image you deliver to them.
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I do not see any information about where I can see your work!?
willow.no (http://www.willow.no)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85378\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That's because I'm not pushing one back or another with a hidden agenda. How do we know that people who post here saying this or that back is wonderful are not employed by the manufacturers themselves or agents for them? What I think posters should do is show their work if they recommend an item of equipment.
I'm not in a position to offer any advice on a MFDB as I was just about to sign a cheque for one. I was anyway until I read all the horror stories. Now it's going to wait until I'm satisfied the manufacturers are being straight with their customers. It appears disatisfied users are coming out of the woodwork daily !
No wonder people are getting stressed over it all.
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How do we know that people who post here saying this or that back is wonderful are not employed by the manufacturers themselves or agents for them?
I seriously doubt if that happens. What seems like an Agenda is usually just familiarity.
I say the A-22 is good, but I use it all the time and am comfortable with it.
It's not an agenda, it's just experience, much the same as when Michael reports on the Phase. He's use to it, knows his way around the software and what to look out for.
Still, any problem with these cameras can be a big problem on the day of the shoot.
In my world you have to get about 20 things right to secure and win a project and only .5 of one thing off to not get the gig. Consequently it takes about 2000 things right to make a successful project and one one issue to brand it a negative.
I also have 40pts green on my Aptus 65 tethered in V-8 and LC10 and when the files go into pscs.
They pretty much correct out ok, but what a fright. Such a fright I just put it away and go with the A-22 and like someone said, at that point all the clients see is green.
Saying this is not an agneda for or against Leaf, it's just my experience.
Recently I had the opportunity to briefly test a P-30, H3 with my A-22 in the same HMI light source. Once again this is a very brief test and should not be read as an endorsement or a review.
The A-22 worked as it always does, no issues, proper iso, with just a slight 10pt green cast. I shot the A-22 tethered.
The H3 I shot untethered and the oled display was bright red and so were the thumbnails in flexcolor.
The P-30 I also shot quickly untethered and the lcd was even and pretty, much like what I am familiar with the Leaf, and pretty much the same resolution as the Leaf though much smaller.
In the software the P-30 file came out of the camera the prettiest, with the A-22 a close second, the Hasselblad a close third. All three files could be made to look almost identical, though the easiest to work was the P-30 file, except for sharpening. Out of the can the P-30 file is quite beautiful with excellent skin tones and color rendition.
C-1 IMO sharpens funky and the P-30 has a slight AA filter look, somewhere between the Canon and the Aptus 22 in sharpness. I find C-1 sharpening on all levels way too abrupt and the files are best sharpened later in PS.
Processing the A-22 files in pscs is a no brainer and produces slightly more grain and film like look, than the other two cameras, but this is a function of acr.
As far as software goes C-1 is really robust and stable and once you learn it quite easy. For batch processing it's really the gold standard, though it takes a long time to build previews and is very power hungry. It's not a software that tethers that well with an older G4 powerbook and to tether correctly you really need a G5 tower minimum.
Leaf V-8 really tetheres the fastest and easiest, to the point it runs on almost any computer you chose and runs fast. The one downside is Leaf is not adding additional features such as higher iso over 200 and seems to be moving away from V-8 to LC-10.
LC-10 to me is very stubborn and disconnected. The one thing LC10 does well is it produces excellent 1000 pixel wide jpegs automatically. I usually tether in V-8 and then put the files in lc 10 and let it make the jpegs, which happens fast.
Flexicolor to me is kind of strange. It's much like V-8 somewhat easy to use, and unlike V-8 has a temperature slider. The downside is the thumbnails are bright red and the main preview window is not high rez, though the image does come up in the proper color. There is a small detail window that shows sharpness and high rez, but no way to produce a high rez file without processing.
The Leaf and the Phase one file work directly in lightroom (which I think is going to be the bomb), but the H3 file is not recognized by lightroom without dng conversion.
Still, all of these cameras work, though you really have to test and learn for yourself.
JR
http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com (http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com)
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It appears disatisfied users are coming out of the woodwork daily !
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85425\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Some of us are very satisfied. My P25 has worked out very well for me, and my clients as well. While I do use the 1Ds on occasion, I would never go back to a total 35mm DSLR workflow. Even with the learning curve, software and hardware issues, the benefits are just too great to ignore.
I don't think it matters what platform you're on, this technology has it's quirks that take time to work out. Staying one step back from the cutting edge, and using proven, tested products is not a bad approach. It may not have the glam factor of the latest and greatest, but the best digital back in my book is the one that works day in and day out.
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I seriously doubt if that happens. What seems like an Agenda is usually just familiarity.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85430\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
James,
I never doubted your integrity for one minute. For a long time you've so generously given your advice and free information in your posts here and on the old RG forum. Both you and Eric along with many others nail your colours to the mast by giving your site adresses. I was really referring to posters who recommend gear and hide behind an alias. How can people trust them? I wished I was in a position to dispense wisdom like you so readily do.
But then where have I heard this all before. Mr T. pointed this out a few weeks back !
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I was really referring to posters who recommend gear and hide behind an alias. How can people trust them? I wished I was in a position to dispense wisdom like you so readily do.
But then where have I heard this all before. Mr T. pointed this out a few weeks back !
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85445\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
What a balony! I have never even looked at the sites of any posters here, from their remarks and information they are giving I can tell which one is making sense and which one is not. If you cannot, you are probably lacking in knowledge but in that case any advise is dangerous.
For me even peoples real names are aliases since I don't know anyone personally (with a few exceptions).
Come on and take some responsibility yourself. You can read anything you want online whatever you do with this is totally up to yourself and your responsibility.
When hell freezes over I will put my real name on any forum (including the ones where I am Mod).
Whoever wants to know who I am? Send me a PB, get to know me and you will find out.
Maybe you were not referring to me since I will never recommend anything to anyone since everybody is working differently. I am prepared to share experiences though.
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I stand corrected.
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James, How in the world did you manage to shoot H3 with your Aptus-22 and the thumbnails in Flexcolor. My understanding from all those enormous postings earlier that H3 is closed system!!! Yet you shot it with A-22!!! and opened it Flexcolor which is Hasselblad's software!!!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85453\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
He is refering to shooting with the H3, the Aptus 22 (on a different camera), and the P30.
Three seperate cameras, not two. Just a gramatical error.
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James,
I never doubted your integrity for one minute. For a long time you've so generously given your advice and free information in your posts here and on the old RG forum. Both you and Eric along with many others nail your colours to the mast by giving your site adresses. I was really referring to posters who recommend gear and hide behind an alias. How can people trust them? I wished I was in a position to dispense wisdom like you so readily do.
snip
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85445\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm a new visitor/poster on this forum, I do use my real name, and no, I don't have a web site. I've been reading posts by some of these frequent posters - you know - some of the posters who "nail their colors to the mast" - and I think with some of these people, it's one huge ego trip - they're experts on everything, they have 2 of each digital back and know it all, and they make comparisons and comments that sometimes boggle the mind because their arguments are based on faulty logic. If you think that they don't have their own agenda which they try to advance then there's a bridge in London I'd like to sell you. Readers beware and read between the lines.
Streetshooter, maybe I missed something, aren't you one of the people posting under an alias?
Richard Hagen
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Richard, I know of this guy that sold a tower in Paris twice as scrap metal but have not met anyone that has been selling a certain bridge in London
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He is refering to shooting with the H3, the Aptus 22 (on a different camera), and the P30.
Three seperate cameras, not two. Just a gramatical error.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85454\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
For the sake of clarity, I shot the P=30 and A-22 with a Contax and the H3 with and H3.
I didn't really want to mention cameras because my reference was to the backs, thier use, look and workflow.
JR
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James,
I never doubted your integrity for one minute. For a long time you've so generously given your advice and free information in your posts here and on the old RG forum. Both you and Eric along with many others nail your colours to the mast by giving your site adresses. I was really referring to posters who recommend gear and hide behind an alias. How can people trust them? I wished I was in a position to dispense wisdom like you so readily do.
But then where have I heard this all before. Mr T. pointed this out a few weeks back !
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85445\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I didn't think you or anyone was implying anything, though I think most views that come across as bias ussually are just experience.
I've seen Phase guys that love Phase, Leaf guys love leaf, etc., but 99% of that is just that they have had good experience with the products and that is thier main point of reference.
In reality it doesn't matter as long as your getting what you want out of a camera, or back or both.
JR
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James,
With much less experience, I'd like to confirm:
From the files I examined, I too noted the A30 needs slight sharpening, although much less than the Canon 1Ds2. The P30 does have HUGE detail in there recoverable by unsharp mask, again like the 1Ds2 but the files can also take a huge amount of color adjustment which the 1Ds2 files cannot. The Leaf files I shot myself as well as those I obtained from various sources looked sharper out of the box, maybe they don't even need any sharpening.
I couldn't see anything seriously wrong with any of the Leaf or Phase model-shoot files I examined so far. And you all know how eager I am to jump on minor defects
Edmund
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In my experience, the P30 files are often too sharp for fashion/beauty , so I turn of all sharpening in C1.
My experience with the A22 was that it was not sharp enough.
Just IMO.
Willow
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In my experience, the P30 files are often too sharp for fashion/beauty , so I turn of all sharpening in C1.
My experience with the A22 was that it was not sharp enough.
Just IMO.
Willow
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=85502\")
That is the exact opposite experience I found though it must be used with qualifiers.
The P-30 files on skin and pores is very sharp, but on certain weaves and material, eyelashes, etc. is less sharp and somewhat softer than the A-22., but it doesn't appear to be a global type of sharpening, it's almost subject specific and lighter fabrics and jewlrey almost have a glow, where the A-22 sharpening and the appearance of detail is global. If I move the sliders on the A-22 it all gets either sharper or smoother, but pretty much starts out very sharp depending on lens.
JR
[a href=\"http://www.russellrutherford.com/]http://www.russellrutherford.com/[/url]
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Yes Im aware of this issue, it only happens on Aptus 75, again only with wide angle lenses, again only in certain lighting conditions. this does not happen every time. if you take this picture on two different days this may not happend on the second day.
at present leaf has made a small stand alone software named "file converter-wdeangle" if you will run this small software, this problem will be gone from the raw file.
in coming new firmware of aptus 75 this issue will be resolved.
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It has been four months and 7,000 frames that I am shooting with A75. It is the first Leaf back that I use after seven years with various Phase backs ( last one P25 ). My experience is phenomenal. I asolutly love it and experienced no problems at all with CF. I looked very hard for its presence but seen nothing but clean, perfect files. High Iso is great, color is dead on spot. I would never look back or even remotly consider swithching to P1. I just signed for the S upgrade and I am looking forward for a long term relation with Leaf. My A75 is used on H1 and Mamiya Rz via ECO adapter.
www.AndreNapier.com
www.MissObiektywu.com
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Thats funny, I have the problem on every file with every lens with my 24xl, 35xl and 49xl. I am waiting for my 4th Aptus 75 back thats on its way. The stand alone program is a patch not a solution. I have tried to speak with leaf about it to deaths ear. I already know 2 other photographers who have dumped their Aptus 75 for other manufactures backs, because of the work flow. I have tried to bring up what I feel would be a good solution, but nobody wants to hear it. I am weeks away from also returning my Aptus 75.
Leaf needs to create a one shot fix like phase and Sinar that can be uploaded to the back. I don't have all day to use the gain adjuster in V8. Create a program like the stand alone gain adjuster that is in side V10. Make it so I have to only shoot 1 shot. To do this type of thing in post is ridiculous. I spent hours lighting a shot, to have the gain adjuster change the look and feel of a shot?
Yes Im aware of this issue, it only happens on Aptus 75, again only with wide angle lenses, again only in certain lighting conditions. this does not happen every time. if you take this picture on two different days this may not happend on the second day.
at present leaf has made a small stand alone software named "file converter-wdeangle" if you will run this small software, this problem will be gone from the raw file.
in coming new firmware of aptus 75 this issue will be resolved.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=90521\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I thought I finally solved the centerfold issue with my 3rd Aptus 75 back. I tested the back on my cambo Wide DS and my first test looked clean.
I then shot a project on the new back thinking no centerfold issues, how wrong I was. I did not see the centerline on my 17in Macbook Pro on location, but. When I returned to process the files on my G5 with Sony artisan monitor I see the centerline. The difference from my test to the shoot was time exposure. I was shooting with a Schneider 47xl 4-6 sec exposures.
This is just a never ending issue.
(http://www.johngibbel.com/shot.jpg)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85081\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
As I don't own a MF back I suppose I should not comment, but what the hell. How does a sensor gather information when on long exposure? I can only see the line in the sky, the house I can't see a line. So is it something to do with the darkening sky as the light fades with some time difference to gathering the information between right and left hand sides?
Kevin.
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As I don't own a MF back I suppose I should not comment, but what the hell. How does a sensor gather information when on long exposure? I can only see the line in the sky, the house I can't see a line. So is it something to do with the darkening sky as the light fades with some time difference to gathering the information between right and left hand sides?
Kevin.
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No. I had an Aptus 75 for about 4 months. This issue will happen in the middle of the day with a 1/500th exposure as well. It is easily masked by textured subject matter. Shooting the sky is one of the easiest ways to make it show up. With interiors photography (or in a forest full of trees) you would likely not see it.
There are explanations on this forum of the technical cause. I think maybe by Edmund or Yaya. It is nearly exclusive to non-retrofocal wide angle lenses, or with lots of shifting. The idea is to have a lens very close to the sensor so that light is striking it staight on in the middle and a steep angles out at the edges. So a person shooting a view camera with a 35mm lens will have the problem, while the person shooting the retrofocus 35mm lens on a Hassy will not have the problem.
Each company has solutions to this or other problems that occur between MFDB's and Non-retrofocal lenses (or with swings and tilts). Leaf has the "Custom Gain Adjuster", Sinar has "Brumbaers DNG converter", Phase One has "LCC" and "Pattern Noise Reduction".
From my experience, Phase has the best tethered solution. Sinar has the best portable solution, and Leaf is in the middle. There is a new popularity in shooting architecture with these cameras. The MFDB companies are playing catch-up with the software solutions. I think many of us feel like early adopters.
With Leaf, the uniformity issues were not known until after a bunch of us paid for the Aptus 75's. That is why there are several people so upset about this.
It is not so cut and dry though. While Phase has a very fast solutions to their color casts in the LCC tool, I can only process my images in C1 Pro. As far as Lightroom, ACR, and RAW developer are concerned, my P45 images with color casts are defective.
Leaf and Sinar actually correct the RAW files rather than just the output. So the files have many more processing options. The new ACR has adopted many of the features people like about Lightroom, but I cant use it. In February with C1 pro V4 I will reportedly be able to output DNG files which have the color casts removed. I will be able to use ACR and others once again.
Because users bought Leaf backs believing that there would be NO uniformity issues (ala Phase One) there are a few people who have returned the backs and chosen something else. BUT, they are just buying into some other companies uniformity issues (this includes me). For me, the software solution with Phase was superior because I could view corrected files on the computer screen immediately, and it was less time comsuming to apply the settings (but I am stuck in C1 Pro). I think that Rainer does more untethered shooting, and so the Sinar has a better solution for him. In Six months from now each company will have spent a lot more time working on this issue. So who has the best solution right now, may not have the best solution in the future.
"Lots of ins lots of outs, its a complicated case."
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I personally don't believe any of these stories to do with angle of incidence hitting the imager and all that.
I have two identical brand new Aptus 65 cameras. I shoot with one either oriented vertically or horizontallly, perfect, no centrefold whatsoever.
Swap to the other identical back, same camera, same lighting, moving nothing, just a straight swap and I get the centrefold on horizontal shooting on the other back.
The problem is evidently with the chip,its internal calibration or whatever. Frankly, I don't want to know the technicalities or have any excuses. All I know is that one back has the problem and the other one doesn't.
Not that it bothers me much, basically I've stored a custom gain for Vertical shooting and another one for Horizontal shooting and it takes 10 secs to load it prior to the shoot.
I'm sure Leaf will find a solution sooner or later, probably later, when every other camera has already resolved theirs.
Basically I can live with little problems like this so long as the overall experience is positive and the backs save me time and earn me money.
But next year I will upgrade both (if there is something on offer that is better for me) , I will look carefully at the competition, they all have faults or restrictions. No back is perfect, I know that from experience. If I find an overall better back, I will wave Leaf good bye in an instant and go for whoever offers the best for me. It is also quite possible that I will stick with Leaf, as I believe it is the best choice for me at the moment, despite everything.
Edward
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eric,
although i am shooting exterior usually untethered, for interior i am using tethered shooting as well.
the workflow is the same with the emotion, you either can take stephans tools or capture. i am using stephans programms, which include now also a tethered shooting programm.
the difference between the sinar / brumbaer solution and the leaf gain adjuster is that the cf in the images is corrected directly in the sinar/brumbaer "raw" files by a specific software algorythm. this is not a patch, its a solution and it is fundamental different than the gain adjuster and its inverting method.
the white reference shots in brumbaer/ capture have nothing to do with the cf issues.
you can do them ( to increase the grey uniformity ) or you dont do them,- there is no cf issue in any case.
about the reasons and about base info about this issue i suggest to search here in the forum about info stephan and me have already provided. i dont want to repeat it one time more.
in general it has nothing to do with lenses, exposure times or motifs, this facts just make the issue more or less visible,- further there is also variation between the backs cause the dalsa specs claim 3% tolerances between the sensor zones which is too much if you have bad luck ( hi tolerance in your sensor ) or which remains invisible if you have good luck with your back ( lo tolerance in your sensor ). so exchanging the backs might bring the solution ( luck ) or not ( not so much luck )
but as i said before sinar/ brumbaer has a definitive solution for that which is not a "cosmetic" patch and this depends not on the dalsa specs,- the cf issue is removed also with "bad" backs ( 3% tolerance ).
i would simply advise for architecture shooting ( using shift lenses ) the emotion 75 or 22, it seems to me as this would be the best back at the moment, regarding the image quality, the workflow and even the price.
but i have too less experience with the phase backs, to know how is the workflow with shift lenses using their lcc shootings and how is the image quality also in terms of fringing,battery use, lcd quality, writing speed and this kind of "details". i was thinking to take the dalsa route cause my experience with the kodak sensors was not that good before, and as i believe they have not changed their sensor design which leaded to many effects as the magenta-green shifts with many lenses and high energy consumption,- which originally the dalsa sensors have shown to a far less degree. but as i said i havent worked with a p30 or p45.
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James,
I don't own a MF format back, but I was one of the first people in the US to get an M8; that M8 is now back in Germany (god willing) to be fixed. If I get lucky, it will be fixed and shipped back before the German Christmas holiday, which, as I understand it, extends from Dec. 23 to Jan. 2. If I get unlucky, I lose the camera for a additional ten days, or five-six weeks total.
The M8 had two major problems. First, it was too sensitive to IR, and therefore dark neutral colors that reflected a lot of IR, usually synthetic fabrics or fabrics with a waterproof coating, became visibly magenta. REALLY magenta. The other fault produced severe banding when over-exposed lights were present in a frame shot in otherwise dark conditions, and a weird green mirror image. In other words, you really can't count on doing low-light street shooting, which is one of the M's reasons for being.
One interesting thing: the **very first person** to take delivery of a commercial M8 (as far as we know) discovered the banding fault **on his first night of shooting.** I think I may have been the first to notice the green mirror images, on the first day that M8s were widely delivered in the US. On the second or third day of shooting, after the first deliveries, somebody shot a concert in which all the players were wearing tuxes, and all the tuxes were...magenta. Nasty.
There was a web-wide Leica freak-out, and what happened then was as interesting as the faults. I honestly believe that Leica simply didn't know what to do. They tried to do the best they could, and IMHO have come up with the most practical solution, but not without a lot of trashing around. These high-tech camera companies just are not good at consumer relations. Nikon is not good, Hasselblad has recently pissed off people by closing the H3 system, Leaf has got this centerfold problem or whatever you call it. To me, the eventual technical responses seem appropriate -- but the communications problem is awful. I just wonder if there is not some cultural thing going on here too; do the European shooters complain as much as Americans? Or is it just us?
JC
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, and a weird green mirror image. In other words, you really can't count on doing low-light street shooting, which is one of the M's reasons for being.
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Many of the specialized digital cameras can have issues, but sometimes it makes me wonder if they are really tested and checked for their intended use.
Regardless, I think most of us can accept a problem as long as the manufacturer acknowledges it and gives is a time line for a definate fix and if a workaround is required, publishes that quickly.
Obviously Lecia did that by recalling the cameras and offering filters.
I would assume most of us here earn our living with these tools and consistent reliability is as important as file quality and look, actually I think more important when it's for commerce. What seems like a simple issue of IR or WB response can turn a successful project into one that becomes labeled as problematic.
I've had great results with my A-22 as long as I tethered with the older V-8 software and edited/named/processed in third party applications, but even with my own stable workflow, it takes a lot of study and a great deal of patience to accept these workarounds.
This week I just added a P-30 mostly for the stability and workflow of C-1.
So far I like the file quality very much but, even if it turns out that image quality is only equal to the Leaf, the stability of a mature software is worth the investment.
So often we all get so deeply involved and invest so much time and effort in learning these cameras we build an unintentional loyalty, almost irrational at times, probably like becoming close to a doctor.
In my case I hope I never get to know the doctors at Phase.
JR
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The center line is obviously a sensor calibration issue; the sensor has two halves with slightly different sensitivities, and the proper corrections are not being applied to the RAW data prior to conversion. Most likely, 2 different A/D converters are being used to shorten readout times and increase the frame rate, and they are not converting identical voltages off the sensor to identical digital values. A faulty lens would not cause a split-screen type perfectly straight line down the middle of the frame with differing luminance on each side of the line.
One can occasionally see a similar defect in Canon 1Ds-MkII images shot at high ISO and underexposed by two stops or more. The 1D-MkII uses 8 A/D converters to read the data off the sensor, but instead of each converter reading a large rectangular area of the sensor, each converter reads every eighth column of pixels. As a result, what yoiu see is every eighth column of pixels being slightly brighter or darker in parts of the image.
This problem is something that ought to be addressed in the camera firmware.
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I did own 4 seperate Aptus 75 backs. Each one showed centerfold AND colorcasts on my Alpa camera. None of them showed centerfold or colorcasts on the H1. So for me, the conversation about what causes centerfold is a little academic. Even if the centerold issue is solved 100%, shooting a white plexi to correct the color casts would still be a fact of life for the architecture shooter who started this thread. Because the Custom Gain adjuster would still be run on every shot, there is no point in Leaf fixing the centerfold (except for those costomers like Edward who see it on an SLR camera). I don't think Leaf is going to start delivery backs that have no colorcasts on these specialized cameras. So it is, in my opinion, more important for Leaf to continue developing a custom gain solution which works in LC10, works more quickly in LC8, and is more automated when downloading from a card.
Edward, I think your situation with the Aptus 65 is different than with Pixjohn. Leaf will send you a back without centerfold and you may never shoot a gain diffuser again because you're working with an SLR. It is a more isolated incident that youe camera has non-uniformity issues. For the architecture shooter with an Alpa or a Cambo, EVERY 33MP and 39MP on the market today in not uniform. As a result of this difference Edward, you are waiting for a hardware solution to be delivered, but Pixjohn is waiting for an improved software solution. Phase went through this same experience. A few Phase customers had color casts with the P45 on SLR cameras. Phase fixed the problem for those people. Every architecture shooter with a P45 is given a white plexi card and shown how to use it.
There are thousands of Aptus 75, P45, eMotion75, and H3 MFDB's being used by photographers with SLR cameras every day with NO centerfolds or colorcasts. Edward's is an isolated occurance. 99.9% of those backs would show color casts needing correction if I put them on my Alpa with a 35mm digitar.
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The center line is obviously a sensor calibration issue; the sensor has two halves with slightly different sensitivities, and the proper corrections are not being applied to the RAW data prior to conversion. Most likely, 2 different A/D converters are being used to shorten readout times and increase the frame rate, and they are not converting identical voltages off the sensor to identical digital values. A faulty lens would not cause a split-screen type perfectly straight line down the middle of the frame with differing luminance on each side of the line.
One can occasionally see a similar defect in Canon 1Ds-MkII images shot at high ISO and underexposed by two stops or more. The 1D-MkII uses 8 A/D converters to read the data off the sensor, but instead of each converter reading a large rectangular area of the sensor, each converter reads every eighth column of pixels. As a result, what yoiu see is every eighth column of pixels being slightly brighter or darker in parts of the image.
This problem is something that ought to be addressed in the camera firmware.
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The technical explanation was given several times on this forum, most accurately by Stephan Hess.
The line in the centre is an accute case of colour cast and it appears in the centre as a result of the 6 "panels" the chip is died with. Nothing to do with "two halves" as there are no two halves.
A hardware or firmware solution is the most desired one and sooner or later it will be achieved.
Eric is right about WA non-retrofocal lenses, this is where most sensors will show colour casts and since there are endless combinations of apertures and shifts, there will always be a need for some sort of gain adjustment, at least with the current lens/ glass design.
Yair
[span style=\'font-size:8pt;line-height:100%\']Yair Shahar | Regional Manager | Leaf EMEA |
mob: +44 77 8992 8199 | yair.shahar@kodak.com | www.leaf-photography.com
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The line in the centre is an accute case of colour cast and it appears in the centre as a result of the 6 "panels" the chip is died with. Nothing to do with "two halves" as there are no two halves.
The camera is successfully balancing the out the luminance along the edges of the 3 panels on the right, and among the 3 panels on the left, but not along the midsection of the chip. That's got to be a firmware bug; only half of the edge-matching job is being done.
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Edward, I think your situation with the Aptus 65 is different than with Pixjohn. Leaf will send you a back without centerfold and you may never shoot a gain diffuser again because you're working with an SLR. It is a more isolated incident that youe camera has non-uniformity issues. For the architecture shooter with an Alpa or a Cambo, EVERY 33MP and 39MP on the market today in not uniform. As a result of this difference Edward, you are waiting for a hardware solution to be delivered, but Pixjohn is waiting for an improved software solution. Phase went through this same experience. A few Phase customers had color casts with the P45 on SLR cameras. Phase fixed the problem for those people. Every architecture shooter with a P45 is given a white plexi card and shown how to use it.
Sorry Eric, I don't know where you got that I shoot with SRL's and Aptus. I actually shoot with two Aptus 65, both fitted on Sinar P view cameras and both bought at the same time.
This centrefold occurs when I use the Aptus back mounted on a Sinar horizontally, just the fact I'm turning the mount 90 degrees from portrait to landscape, causes the centrefold. It happens with any lens, from 100mm, 120mm, 135mm 150 and 180mm all digitar, no movements or shift or anything.
I swap the backs, touching nothing, just unclipping from the mount, stick the other back on, and one back has no problem, the other back has. Both backs show absolutely no centrefold shooting vertically, both with the default gain from factory.
If I adjust the gain so that it corrects the centrefold on the "bad" back shooting lanscape orientation, then the centrefold will this time happen on portrait orientation, so the solution for me is to load either of a set of gains (the default for vertical and my own gain for horizontal shooting).
The "good" back doesn't need any of this messing around, it shoots fine in either orientation. I would rather not have to mess changing gain every time I change orientation.
I trust Leaf will find an automatic solution soon, because the way I see it, if every other camera back manufacturer has found a solution and Leaf falls behind, many people, including me, are going to be really pissed off.
Edward
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Sorry Eric, I don't know where you got that I shoot with SRL's and Aptus. I actually shoot with two Aptus 65, both fitted on Sinar P view cameras and both bought at the same time.
Edward
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My bad Edward. Just assumed you were using an SLR. I noticed centerfold much more in horizontal shots because the line would run into the blue sky, which made it very easy to see. Shooting vetically the subject matter usually hid the effect. Good luck with a resolution. I don't think it will be difficult to get two satisfactory backs with those longer lenses.