Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: nicolaasdb on November 12, 2006, 12:12:31 am
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I tested my new lens 105/210 and AFDII with my A65 back today and this is what I saw ( images attached)
I have been using the back for the last 3 weeks in studio with strobes.
The attached images were just to see if the lens worked properly...no light setup and and no light readings taken.....shot at iso 100-800 and the results were the same.
Is this the famour Leaf centerfolding issue??
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Sure looks like it!
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I tested my new lens 105/210 and AFDII with my A65 back today and this is what I saw ( images attached)
I have been using the back for the last 3 weeks in studio with strobes.
The attached images were just to see if the lens worked properly...no light setup and and no light readings taken.....shot at iso 100-800 and the results were the same.
Is this the famour Leaf centerfolding issue??
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=84744\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi
Send it back to Leaf, that is a straight line, also check it with another lens and body if you have one.
Thanks Denis
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Hi
Send it back to Leaf, that is a straight line, also check it with another lens and body if you have one.
Thanks Denis
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=84749\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
tested it with 2 other lenses...it only happens when I shoot without strobes.
One side is magenta and the other side is greenish.
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tested it with 2 other lenses...it only happens when I shoot without strobes.
One side is magenta and the other side is greenish.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=84759\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well, now we know this isn't limited to wide-angles.
Send it back to Leaf - they say they have a solution.
Edmund
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Hi Nicolas,
Thanks for posting your question.
The problem is related to a bug in the software that runs within the back. We appreciate the importance of fixing this bug and are working hard to solve it with a firmware upgrade in the near future.
The problem usually happens when using high ISO. So as to ensure there is no misunderstanding you should know this problem is not the" centerfold" problem.
Best regards,
Shachar Kedem
Director, Service & Support
Leaf
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Hi Nicolas,
Thanks for posting your question.
The problem is related to a bug in the software that runs within the back. We appreciate the importance of fixing this bug and are working hard to solve it with a firmware upgrade in the near future.
The problem usually happens when using high ISO. So as to ensure there is no misunderstanding you should know this problem is not the" centerfold" problem.
Best regards,
Shachar Kedem
Director, Service & Support
Leaf
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=84897\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Just pass that on to your clients Nicolas, tell them not to worry because it's not the centrefold issue.
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Leaf's team is working flat out to make the next product, they don't really have the time to fix the current one. Stop pestering them !
Edmund
Just pass that on to your clients Nicolas, tell them not to worry because it's not the centrefold issue.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=84919\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Sounds like a bunch of BS to me from Mr Leaf. Glad you posted this...Leaf has too many problems to be in business.
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This was one BIG reason why I went with P30 instead of A65 - software problems.
I was very keen on the Aptus 65, but did not want to be stuck with
software problems and workflow problems.
It does help that we have a very service minded Aptus dealer in Norway,
but he cannot be with be 24/7.
Willow
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This is a great response... I am sure the customers will understand... LMAO
Just pass that on to your clients Nicolas, tell them not to worry because it's not the centrefold issue.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=84919\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I had the same problem with my Aptus 17..
Good to hear that this is software, and a fix is coming in the near future.
The only problem seems to be that the Leaf definition of "near future" is not in sync with the rest of the world..
It should be added that both Leaf and my local dealer have been very helpful in trying to fix my issues. Most issues do not get solved online in a forum such as this. They have come up with a lot of temporary "workarounds". It would just be good to have it all come together as the "package" I thought I bought..
We appreciate the importance of fixing this bug and are working hard to solve it with a firmware upgrade in the near future.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=84897\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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The only problem seems to be that the Leaf definition of "near future" is not in sync with the rest of the world..
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85018\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Maybe their front office is run by geologists: "near future" would mean within the next few millenia.
Eric
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Sounds like a bunch of BS to me from Mr Leaf. Glad you posted this...Leaf has too many problems to be in business.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=84987\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
What really kills me is that Edmund and Doug don't even own medium format backs. So what is the point of making such inane comments?
Your statements really add nothing, say nothing and are nothing.
Edmund, I ask you, what is your agenda? Are you anti Leaf? Are you so arrogant as a PhD that you feel you have the right to stick your head into discussions of which you have no knowledge or information.
Jeez, give me a break.
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Is this something the custom gain adjuster utility can correct for a short term workaround?
Even as a Phase owner, I'd still take issue with the comment about Leaf having no right to be in business, but given the tone of the comment I'm not sure it's worth the effort. If you've used a Leaf back and have worked with the files it produces, you know the answer.
Nicholas, I do hope you get this resolved soon and please keep us informed of the situation.
Best,
Eric Zepeda
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What really kills me is that Edmund and Doug don't even own medium format backs. So what is the point of making such inane comments?
Your statements really add nothing, say nothing and are nothing.
Edmund, I ask you, what is your agenda? Are you anti Leaf? Are you so arrogant as a PhD that you feel you have the right to stick your head into discussions of which you have no knowledge or information.
Jeez, give me a break.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85039\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Obviously Leaf has some issues with the 65/75 sensors and I know they are working hard on it.
You really have to meet and know the people that make this equipment to realize how much effort they put into thier product and I'm including Leaf, Phase and Hasselblad.
Still, unless you work with this equipment day in and day out and work it hard you can't really find the issues and devise the workarounds and I can promise you, all digital cameras have some issues and all digital cameras eventually require some kind workaround.
This latest episode with the Leica M8 is a good example. NOT FOR ONE MINUTE do I think that Leica, or Michael or anyone attempted to deceive their customers or viewers. Yes some things were missed, some things omitted, but in the end it's almost impossible to test every subject in every light source with every lens.
Yes, Leaf has had some recent issues and needs to get on top of it, but they know this better than we do and I can promise you they will get to a solution as thier customer service and willingness to stand behind thier product is very good.
Nobody should wish any company go out of business, especially one that is hard working.
I've shot the Leaf, Phase and Hasselblad and can tell you all of them are very fine tools and each one has an advantage over the other, depending on the situation.
JR
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Nice to know that when a rep actually responds to a question in this forum that he'll be jumped on with both feet.
Very classy.
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They know theres a fault with the product but there still selling them and not telling new buyers about it untill they've already made the purchase. This is surelly a decietfull and dishonest practice. Everyone with a faulty back should be offered a full refund.
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I think the reply from the Leaf representative was intended to let us know that the issue will be easily fixed in comarison to a centre-fold issue.
Would friend Doug prefer they say nothing at all??
You take some nice pictures Doug but your comments are usually negative shite!
Even though I would wish these issues were fixed long before the product came onto the market I struggle to think of any piece of hardware or software that is perfect from the start.
At the very least Leaf have responded quickly and have made it clear that it will be fixed.
Andrew Dyer
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Obviously Leaf has some issues with the 65/75 sensors and I know they are working hard on it.
You really have to meet and know the people that make this equipment to realize how much effort they put into thier product and I'm including Leaf, Phase and Hasselblad.
Still, unless you work with this equipment day in and day out and work it hard you can't really find the issues and devise the workarounds and I can promise you, all digital cameras have some issues and all digital cameras eventually require some kind workaround.
This latest episode with the Leica M8 is a good example.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85051\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
James is doing something smart. He is using an old school camera, the Contax, which is reliable, and an old back, the A22, which works.
The industry is now geared to pre-releasing products with the latest features. Nobody wastes engineering resources to fix issues because the next product needs to come out. So the issues don't get fixed. Leaf's A team is on the new stuff, as in every company. The B team is not making headway.
If that camera were a car, and it left people standing on the highway as often, they'd'd be demanding a fix rather than waiting so meekly for it.
As for my Leica M8, I am attaching a picture I made with it, in Jpeg mode. Don't worry, the Raws are equally bad. Faults are circled in black. *NOTICE THE ARTEFACT ON THE RIGHT CUSTOMER'S BACK*, the hard magenta edges at places, the magenta casts, and the strange plum coloring of the coats (IR sensitivity). It's clear that this camera ws released way to early. WHICH IS WHAT EVERYBODY IN THE TECH INDUSTRY IS NOW DOING. Putting the A team on development, and the F team on fixing issues.
Edmund
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James is doing something smart. He is using an old school camera, the Contax, which is reliable, and an old back, the A22, which works.
The industry is now geared to pre-releasing products with the latest features. Nobody wastes engineering resources to fix issues because the next product needs to come out. So the issues don't get fixed. Leaf's A team is on the new stuff, as in every company. The B team is not making headway.
If that camera were a car, and it left people standing on the highway as often, they'd'd be demanding a fix rather than waiting so meekly for it.
As for my Leica M8, I am attaching a picture I made with it, in Jpeg mode. Don't worry, the Raws are equally bad. Faults are circled in black. *NOTICE THE ARTEFACT ON THE RIGHT CUSTOMER'S BACK*, the hard magenta edges at places, the magenta casts, and the strange plum coloring of the coats (IR sensitivity). It's clear that this camera ws released way to early. WHICH IS WHAT EVERYBODY IN THE TECH INDUSTRY IS NOW DOING. Putting the A team on development, and the F team on fixing issues.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85092\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Edmund,
We do not have at Leaf any "F teams" nor "F" people. Our highest priority is always to fix problems that our customers face.
In addition, the main reason for my posts here is to keep our customers informed.
Shachar
Leaf
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Sounds like a bunch of BS to me from Mr Leaf. Glad you posted this...Leaf has too many problems to be in business.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=84987\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Foul language and uninformed generalisation do not really add to the discussion; I for one appreciate it when the reps of a company show up in public and comment on issues.
If their postings don't satisfy you, just ask the questions you want answered, it worked before.
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Foul language and uninformed generalisation do not really add to the discussion; I for one appreciate it when the reps of a company show up in public and comment on issues.
If their postings don't satisfy you, just ask the questions you want answered, it worked before.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85111\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Shahar
Let's be constructive.
It is clear that your company knows about this problem and cares about its customers. The problem hasn't been solved -yet- becauase it is a hard problem.
As a tech guy, I know how hard it is to fix an old product - you have to decide what you can afford to change, and what has to remain untouched, whether a fix is at all economically feasible. Then you need to recreate a tool chain, dig out and reinstall old version SDKs, dig up old documentation, schematics and supplier specs.
It's much faster to fix a bug in something under development, where all the information is at your fingertips and everythin can be changed, than in a frozen product where you first need to turn back the time-machine.
Unfortunately, from the time this problem has been around, and the reality of this run-run-run business, the more time passes, the more unlikely a technical fix will be implemented. Not because it cannot be done but because you only have so many tech guys, and several new products in development.
Maybe a cheap upgrade to the next model would be the best solution for everybody ? A way to remove the problematic backs from the market, and also a way to free up the tech teams - also, this is a business decision that can be made by the business guys alone, and last not least it might even bring in some money.
As a rep I am sure that you know how important it is to manage expectations ...
Edmund
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Edmund,
Unless you know something to be a fact, such as which people at Leaf are working on which project, it seems to me to be irresponsible to make the suggestions that you have made.
Please either substantiate your statement or retract it. Leaf has gone to the trouble of sending two senior reps to respond to reader's concerns on this site. To abuse them with such gratutious accusations is not something which I appreciate seeing here.
Michael
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Edmund,
Unless you know something to be a fact, such as which people at Leaf are working on which project, it seems to me to be irresponsible to make the suggestions that you have made.
Please either substantiate your statement or retract it. Leaf has gone to the trouble of sending two senior reps to respond to reader's concerns on this site. To abuse them with such gratutious accusations is not something which I appreciate seeing here.
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85121\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I apologize, Michael - I hope that Leaf will fix the problems, soon.
Edmund
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I apologize, Michael - I hope that Leaf will fix the problems, soon.
Edmund
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=85127\")
Edmund,
Unless you use one of these backs, day in day out you really can't understand the value and consequently you won't find the issues and workarounds.
Just looking at a few frames from different sessions really tell you nothing. What looks good with flash, may not work with continuous light, what works with tungsten looks different with HMI's, what is good at 400 iso and slightly overexposed could be full of noise at 200 iso and slightly underexposed.
I see this all the time, people make generalizations of a certain brand and then report, _________ is awful or __________ is better. I've been guilty of the same and recently being able to test three backs from three manufacturers opened my eyes.
In fact I can give you compelling reasons why each back has an advantage and conversely why any of the three would be a better purchase.
Everyone wants a definative answer and in the internet age, one, two or three anomolies or even mispoken words can unfairly brand a product.
Still, the only thing that matters to me is what works for me.
My suggestion is before anyone make absolute remarks about a product is to try it and not in an hour or a day but really put it too work and find it's limits.
JR
[a href=\"http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/]http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/[/url]
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Edmund,
Unless you use one of these backs, day in day out you really can't understand the value and consequently you won't find the issues and workarounds.
Just looking at a few frames from different sessions really tell you nothing. What looks good with flash, may not work with continuous light, what works with tungsten looks different with HMI's, what is good at 400 iso and slightly overexposed could be full of noise at 200 iso and slightly underexposed.
I see this all the time, people make generalizations of a certain brand and then report, _________ is awful or __________ is better. I've been guilty of the same and recently being able to test three backs from three manufacturers opened my eyes.
In fact I can give you compelling reasons why each back has an advantage and conversely why any of the three would be a better purchase.
Everyone wants a definative answer and in the internet age, one, two or three anomolies or even mispoken words can unfairly brand a product.
Still, the only thing that matters to me is what works for me.
My suggestion is before anyone make absolute remarks about a product is to try it and not in an hour or a day but really put it too work and find it's limits.
JR
http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/ (http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85137\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Absolutely right, James!
I can only agree on this. By reading the posts here, one gets the feeling that only 2 brands are of interest to be used and giving good files (in any given situation).
There are 4 DB manufacturers (not 2 or 3), guys, and like James put it, test it carefully and take the one which matches your needs and expectations. Don't let yourself being influenced by what you read or hear, here or elsewhere.
Aon
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Absolutely right, James!
I can only agree on this. By reading the posts here, one gets the feeling that only 2 brands are of interest to be used and giving good files (in any given situation).
There are 4 DB manufacturers (not 2 or 3), guys, and like James put it, test it carefully and take the one which matches your needs and expectations. Don't let yourself being influenced by what you read or hear, here or elsewhere.
Aon
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85141\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
But we're not talking about different charecteristics, we're talking about a defective product. Leaf should offer a full refund to anyone with the centerfold issue or whatever there calling it these days.
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Absolutely right, James!
I can only agree on this. By reading the posts here, one gets the feeling that only 2 brands are of interest to be used and giving good files (in any given situation).
There are 4 DB manufacturers (not 2 or 3), guys, and like James put it, test it carefully and take the one which matches your needs and expectations. Don't let yourself being influenced by what you read or hear, here or elsewhere.
Aon
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85141\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
In my wolrd there are only three manufactuers because Sinar seems to have less presence in the U.S., though the people that use them love them.
I really must say again, try these camera in the way you work from setup to shoot, shoot to process, process to delivery.
All will work but some will do more for you than others in specific situations.
JR
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In my wolrd there are only three manufactuers because Sinar seems to have less presence in the U.S., though the people that use them love them.
I really must say again, try these camera in the way you work from setup to shoot, shoot to process, process to delivery.
All will work but some will do more for you than others in specific situations.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85149\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It would be a pretty rare situation that required the frame split in 2 with each side a different color though right?
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Edmund,
Unless you use one of these backs, day in day out you really can't understand the value and consequently you won't find the issues and workarounds.
My suggestion is before anyone make absolute remarks about a product is to try it and not in an hour or a day but really put it too work and find it's limits.
JR
http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/ (http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85137\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Of course, you are are right, James. In theory. The actual "logistics" of an extended demo of each of the three systems is completely impractical, or at least for most of us. One major problem is the cost of actually demoing a $40k MFDB system. The rental cost is $600 per day. The dealers will let you come in and shoot products to your heart's content for free. Just don't leave the store. I shoot outdoors in natural light, so I am not interested in how these backs perform under strobes shooting models or boxes of Cheerios. How do I get a P45, an Aptus 75 and a Hassy 39 mp back mounted on a camera on the same day in the same light? Michael R. tried but could not pull it off with the P45 and Aptus 75.
The other major problem is learning three separate software packages. That's a very distasteful prospect. I hate learning new software. If only there was a single raw converter that worked great with all of the MFDBs.
I hate to even think of relying upon the opinions of people who may have an axe to grind, not know what they are talking about, are marginalizing a back based upon one particular "defect" that may be irrelevant to me, or are defending/touting a back because they own one and have identified with it on some primal level. Perhaps the only alternative is to accept that all of these backs are superb and pick one based upon the dealer who will give you the best support to work around the quirks that all of these backs have.
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Of course, you are are right, James. In theory. The actual "logistics" of an extended demo of each of the three systems is completely impractical, or at least for most of us. One major problem is the cost of actually demoing a $40k MFDB system. The rental cost is $600 per day. The dealers will let you come in and shoot products to your heart's content for free. Just don't leave the store. I shoot outdoors in natural light, so I am not interested in how these backs perform under strobes shooting models or boxes of Cheerios. How do I get a P45, an Aptus 75 and a Hassy 39 mp back mounted on a camera on the same day in the same light? Michael R. tried but could not pull it off with the P45 and Aptus 75.
The other major problem is learning three separate software packages. That's a very distasteful prospect. I hate learning new software. If only there was a single raw converter that worked great with all of the MFDBs.
I hate to even think of relying upon the opinions of people who may have an axe to grind, not know what they are talking about, are marginalizing a back based upon one particular "defect" that may be irrelevant to me, or are defending/touting a back because they own one and have identified with it on some primal level. Perhaps the only alternative is to accept that all of these backs are superb and pick one based upon the dealer who will give you the best support to work around the quirks that all of these backs have.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85172\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The demo backs don't have the issue though so you can test all you like and it won't show up.
Is it that hard for leaf to test all there backs before there released, why are they shipping defective backs? It must be because a. they don't test them adequately before they leave the factory. B. they dont care or c. they test them, know theres a problem but hope you don't notice. Anyone come up with a different reason as I don't like the sound of any of the above.
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But we're not talking about different charecteristics, we're talking about a defective product. Leaf should offer a full refund to anyone with the centerfold issue or whatever there calling it these days.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85148\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
But we're not talking about different charecteristics, we're talking about a defective product. Leaf should offer a full refund to anyone with the centerfold issue or whatever there calling it these days.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85148\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The centerfold issue is specific to Non-Retrofocal lenses (large format lenses like the 24, 35, 47, and 60mm Schneider digitars). Do you know how the other backs perform with these same lenses? The eMotion, Leaf, Phase One, and Hasselblad MFDB's all suffer from a lack of uniformity using these lenses. So you can return your Leaf back, but then what are you going to replace it with? Anyone with a real interest in this issue would be asking how each manufacturer solves the issue through hardware or software, rather than demanding a refund.
Leaf and Sinar resolve this issue by creating new RAW files using reference captures to remove the defects in the image. It is a permanent and archival solution. Sinar and Leaf users can then process their RAW files in any software package.
Phase One offers a closed solution. A similar reference capture is used to create a process setting for the output files. The correction is only applied to the output. The RAW file is never corrected. I have several jobs shot with the P25. If I want to process any of those images in 20 years from now, they will still have the color casts, and will require that I have a current licensed copy of C1 Pro to remove the casts from the Output files. Great solution, just don't forget your checkbook!
The Phase one software solution is easier to use in the studio, especially when tethered. If you are shooting higher volume, I think it is a good choice. If you shoot landscape, architecture, fine art work, then you may have a body of RAW files which do not get processed right away. Perhaps you will comb through your RAW archive in 15 years to do a retrospective of your work, or to make an edit for a new book. At that time, the Leaf and Sinar files can be opened with any software without the color casts or centerfold, because it was removed right after the shoot. The Phase one files would require a software that can still remove the Lens cast, and that means C1 pro only for now.
I say all this to elaborate on what James Russel has said "I really must say again, try these camera in the way you work from setup to shoot, shoot to process, process to delivery.
All will work but some will do more for you than others in specific situations." My "specific situation" might make people rethink their opinion centerfold.
If you went out 6 months ago and bought an Aptus 75 for architecture work, you were told that shooting the white plexi and running a correction was not necessary. This caused many people to choose A75's for architecture. When the backs arrived, this turned out not to be true. Therefore, the back was defective, and we started complaining.
At the same time, people were out buying P45's full well knowing that they would be shooting that white plexi card all the time. This was known up front, and therefore, is not a defect.
Now that I know the Plexi card is a fixture in my kit, I do re-visit the choice to buy the A75 over the P45. Switching to Phase One would be a difficult choice. I would be locking myself into using the Phase software forever. If Phase One went out of business in ten years, I could still process my files in third party software, but how do I remove the lens casts? In this case, the Phase One "defect" is more permanent than the Leaf's "defect".
I would love to know what MR thinks about this. Is he still shooting with Non-retrofocal lenses and his P45, or is everything with the Hasselblad now? There is a lot to learn about this topic for architecture, landscape, and viewcamera shooters. Finding the right questions, as always, is more difficult than coming up with the right answers.
-Eric
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Good thinking Eric!
Naturally you can start screaming for a refund but you still need a back (if that is the chosen route) so what is the point?
I have some issues with my back as well but hope this can be resolved so I can continue to use the thing to earn my money.
I do not particularly scream for a fault free device (coming from the high tech industry I know by now there is no such thing), I just want to have a manufacturer that works its ass of to help me fix the problems I have.
I do have this feeling with Leaf and that is why I still remain loyal towards Leaf backs even when I sometimes envy friends that handle Imacon or Phase backs (I have no friends with Sinar ). Somehow the grass always seems greener on the other side. I have visited the other side several times in the past just to find out that it holds just as many turts as the side I originally came from.
I just wish Leaf would find another dealer for my location because the dealer over here is really really bad!
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here we have a perfect example why this forum is pretty much useless to anyone who actually owns a MF back....people making comments about problems they don't have and that they don't know anything about...."haha another leaf back has a problem, let's all bash leaf!" it is simply childish and such a waste of time...
this forum should be renamed: the almost MF digital forum..people on the verge
always the same questions: which back should i buy? and the answers from the people who actually own backs are always the same...go and test them! and yes they are better! we do people like edmund keep posting on issues that don concern them? if this forum was the only good info on DMF, leaf must be worried, it seems like their backs are faulty and every new product comes out too early...i have owned a leaf back, never had any problems at all...i prefer phase and that workflow...it seems like some people here are happy if there are problems, because they haven't been able to afford the systems they keep reading and writing about, and when these systems have problems...it actually makes them feel better...it is sad...
there is no discussion here about photos, techniques or even photography! it is all leaf v phase v the rest...how faschist hasselblad has become...how this back has this problem (with most of the posts coming from people who don't own the prduct!!!)......at the same time people complain about products being released too early, it is the same people who lust for every rumor and every press release....
edumnd...do another poll...who actually owns a back in here, i can't come here for questions and i am sick of writing the same answers to the same questions, from people on the fence....
i just ordered a new back...the rep and dealers bent over backwards to get the product in my hands...and i am talking about 2 great deals from 2 different companies...anyone out there SERIOUSLY looking for a back should not have a problem handling one and getting a good price....
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Good thinking Eric!
Naturally you can start screaming for a refund but you still need a back (if that is the chosen route) so what is the point?
I have some issues with my back as well but hope this can be resolved so I can continue to use the thing to earn my money.
I do not particularly scream for a fault free device (coming from the high tech industry I know by now there is no such thing), I just want to have a manufacturer that works its ass of to help me fix the problems I have.
I do have this feeling with Leaf and that is why I still remain loyal towards Leaf backs even when I sometimes envy friends that handle Imacon or Phase backs (I have no friends with Sinar ). Somehow the grass always seems greener on the other side. I have visited the other side several times in the past just to find out that it holds just as many turts as the side I originally came from.
I just wish Leaf would find another dealer for my location because the dealer over here is really really bad!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85188\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I guess it's a virtue of you guys to put up with this, if I had spent 30 grand on a product which didn't work as advertised I'd be more than a little upset. Each to there own I guess. I do feel for the guy that tested the thing and when he recieved his back it was different to the one he demo'd (not in a good way) and it's happened 3 times over! Does it not seem unfair to you?
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Fortunately it was a whole lot less than 30K but still a sizeable amount of money. It is not just that there are only faulty devices but the people that do find a fault just scream a lot louder than the ones that don't (they are working with it and don't have time to post here ).
I would have preferred to not have issues however I have owned several backs now and only this time I have an issue of which I currently do not know whether it is severe or not.
On the other hand when you do spend this amount of money you tend to become an even bigger pixel peeper and even more critical towards the image quality you get out of the thing. (by now I have my workflow setup and mastered which is easy when you have only worked with 1 brand so image quality is the only thing I tend to look at).
For me the backs get better every time I put more money into them (read buy newer ones). The first I had to use color filters and the thing was heavily tethered, etc.., The second was only just tethered, The third I could shoot untethered with a firewire disk on a cable in my pocket (left the Ipaq at home), The fourth is everything I wished for besides some issues which Leaf has promised to look into (I just hope they start fairly soon with that).
What do I get in return? Real sharpness instead of ugly PS sharpness from toy D-SLR's, way better colors, files that can handle pretty extreme curve & levels manipulation. An interchangeable back for multiple systems (which actually make the systems fairly cheap). I probably can come up with some more points when I really think about it but the question could also be;
Why would we spend so much money on these things knowing about all these issues? The rewards just might weigh up to the chance of actually running into a problem.
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this forum should be renamed: the almost MF digital forum..people on the verge
always the same questions: which back should i buy? and the answers from the people who actually own backs are always the same...go and test them!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85191\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Here here Paul!!
You nailed it with that post...
For users like us there is nothing to read!! And you're advice is very obvious - wanna back? Go and test it... QED really.
Please can we not have more threads about photography... Colour management.. I dunno.. anything except Leaf / Phase / Hasselblad bashing and ooooo what back shall I (not) buy.
Please?
Jo x
PS Nice website BTW Paul. A good use of Flash that doesn't take an age to load.
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Hi all.
For those of you who are sitting on the fence and looking into the DB world this must be very confusing. The problem is that if you are a optimizer you will never be happy and able to enjoy life. Ther is no such thing as the perfect "use it for everything" camera, nor is there a perfect digital back.( No perfect woman either) I have used my Aptus 75 now for two months and every time I open this files back at the studio I am amazed. What a quality straight out from the back. It is a joy to be a photographer again. My back have problems with a centerline as well but this only show up in very special lighting conditions. 99% of the pictures are just breathtaking for an old Canon shooter.
I have talked with Leaf people on many occasions and are 100% convinced that they will put all their energy into solving this. They are a small company and cant afford non satisfied customers. They care. And while they are sitting in meetings trying to figure this out I will keep on producing fantastic looking pictures with my Leaf.
Listen to James. Work with what you have, work it hard and you will never go wrong. Stop optimizing.
Krister Halvars
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I guess it's a virtue of you guys to put up with this, if I had spent 30 grand on a product which didn't work as advertised I'd be more than a little upset. Each to there own I guess. I do feel for the guy that tested the thing and when he recieved his back it was different to the one he demo'd (not in a good way) and it's happened 3 times over! Does it not seem unfair to you?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85192\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Those of us dealing with this are very upset. We have all lost sleep over it. And yes, it does seem unfair. We bought a back which was said to not have an issue with non-uniformity. We have now learned that ALL 33 and 39mp back have non-uniformity with the non-retrofocal lenses.
If we knew then what we know now, would we have chosen to stay with film? Maybe. Leaf is telling it's customers shooting with these lenses that they are trying to produce backs which are free of this non-uniformity. Has anyone with Phase, Hassy, or Sinar backs been told this by those companies? If Leaf totally fails to cure this non-uniformity, or gives it up entirely, then the Leaf backs will be just the same as the other makers backs in respect to this issue rather than being better.
"I guess it's a virtue of you guys to put up with this"
My nikon lenses all have barrel and pincushion distortion, and Chromatic abberation. The camera has ugly noise at High ISO, and noise at long exposures. It also does a terrible job of handling blown highlights compared to the MFDB's. I put up with it. The 1Ds II I used had better noise, but worse lenses. I put up with it. I could characterize all these as defects and ask for my money back. The people who are telling me to demand a refund from Leaf would Laugh at me for demanding a refund from Nikon or Canon.
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Those of us dealing with this are very upset. We have all lost sleep over it. And yes, it does seem unfair. We bought a back which was said to not have an issue with non-uniformity. We have now learned that ALL 33 and 39mp back have non-uniformity with the non-retrofocal lenses.
If we knew then what we know now, would we have chosen to stay with film? Maybe. Leaf is telling it's customers shooting with these lenses that they are trying to produce backs which are free of this non-uniformity. Has anyone with Phase, Hassy, or Sinar backs been told this by those companies? If Leaf totally fails to cure this non-uniformity, or gives it up entirely, then the Leaf backs will be just the same as the other makers backs in respect to this issue rather than being better.
"I guess it's a virtue of you guys to put up with this"
My nikon lenses all have barrel and pincushion distortion, and Chromatic abberation. The camera has ugly noise at High ISO, and noise at long exposures. It also does a terrible job of handling blown highlights compared to the MFDB's. I put up with it. The 1Ds II I used had better noise, but worse lenses. I put up with it. I could characterize all these as defects and ask for my money back. The people who are telling me to demand a refund from Leaf would Laugh at me for demanding a refund from Nikon or Canon.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85204\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Barrel and pincushion distortion is a known charecteristic of lenses. If the centrefold problem is a charecteristic of the back why don't leaf come out and put it on there spec sheets for the backs?
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here we have a perfect example why this forum is pretty much useless to anyone who actually owns a MF back....people making comments about problems they don't have and that they don't know anything about...."haha another leaf back has a problem, let's all bash leaf!" it is simply childish and such a waste of time...
this forum should be renamed: the almost MF digital forum..people on the verge
always the same questions: which back should i buy? and the answers from the people who actually own backs are always the same...go and test them! and yes they are better! we do people like edmund keep posting on issues that don concern them? if this forum was the only good info on DMF, leaf must be worried, it seems like their backs are faulty and every new product comes out too early...i have owned a leaf back, never had any problems at all...i prefer phase and that workflow...it seems like some people here are happy if there are problems, because they haven't been able to afford the systems they keep reading and writing about, and when these systems have problems...it actually makes them feel better...it is sad...
there is no discussion here about photos, techniques or even photography! it is all leaf v phase v the rest...how faschist hasselblad has become...how this back has this problem (with most of the posts coming from people who don't own the prduct!!!)......at the same time people complain about products being released too early, it is the same people who lust for every rumor and every press release....
edumnd...do another poll...who actually owns a back in here, i can't come here for questions and i am sick of writing the same answers to the same questions, from people on the fence....
i just ordered a new back...the rep and dealers bent over backwards to get the product in my hands...and i am talking about 2 great deals from 2 different companies...anyone out there SERIOUSLY looking for a back should not have a problem handling one and getting a good price....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85191\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
YES!!!
Finally somebody who says what many of us think.
Why not a new thread for people who HAVE a MFDB and wants
to talk about photography and practical use.
Not why and what to buy, no talk about things that will or not will come,
but rather how to use the one we have!
Share some knowledge how it is in practical use.
Willow
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YES!!!
Finally somebody who says what many of us think.
Why not a new FORUM for people who HAVE a MFDB and wants
to talk about photography and practical use.
Not why and what to buy, no talk about things that will or not will come,
but rather how to use the one we have!
Share some knowledge how it is in practical use.
Willow
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85211\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I have owned both medium format backs and the 1ds mark 2 and I find it usefull to debate the relative merits/problems of various companies products. If this thread isn't interesting to you there are many other threads regarding different topics. I don't know why you'd be upset by people debating this. Is dissent not tolerated?
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SNIP
Has anyone with Phase, Hassy, or Sinar backs been told this by those companies? If Leaf totally fails to cure this non-uniformity, or gives it up entirely, then the Leaf backs will be just the same as the other makers backs in respect to this issue rather than being better.
"I guess it's a virtue of you guys to put up with this"
My nikon lenses all have barrel and pincushion distortion, and Chromatic abberation. The camera has ugly noise at High ISO, and noise at long exposures. It also does a terrible job of handling blown highlights compared to the MFDB's. I put up with it. The 1Ds II I used had better noise, but worse lenses. I put up with it. I could characterize all these as defects and ask for my money back. The people who are telling me to demand a refund from Leaf would Laugh at me for demanding a refund from Nikon or Canon.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85204\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
This to me is an incredibly ridiculous analysis totally lacking in logic. I don't think one can equate the Leaf centerfold defect with these other issues like chromatic abberation, noise at high exposures, pin cushioning, etc. These problems are limitations in the technology. In my humble opinion, the Leaf centerfold looks to me like a defect in sensor manufacturing.
Richard
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This to me is an incredibly ridiculous analysis totally lacking in logic. I don't think one can equate the Leaf centerfold defect with these other issues like chromatic abberation, noise at high exposures, pin cushioning, etc. These problems are limitations in the technology. In my humble opinion, the Leaf centerfold looks to me like a defect in sensor manufacturing.
Richard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85221\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Which MFDB's do you use?
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Which MFDB's do you use?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85226\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Why is that relevant?
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Why is that relevant?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85228\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
He is comparing the centerfold to chromatic abberation and barrel distortion. I would like to know how he deals with these different image defects in his workflow. For me, the centerfold has an easier and more fullproof solution than any of the defects he mentions.
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How do you know besides your opinion that the centerfold problem is a manufacturing problem instead of a limitation of current technology?
Even my Aptus17 suffers from centerfold when I put it in the right circumstances, actually I can even push it so it shows 6 rectangulars 3 by 3 with a centerline. I think a lot of sensors (if not all) suffer from this provided they are pushed in places where you should not (when you do not wish to pay the penalty).
The other stuff you mention being limitations of technology are also varying in degrees of severity considering sample variations. When these are only limitations due to the technology why would there be any sample variation?
All in all, whether they are manufacturing errors, variations or technological limitations, the problems are there and need to be addressed.
Somehow it seems like it is worse when it is a manufacturing fault instead of a technology barrier, why? So you can point an accussing finger towards the manufacturer? Pfff.. I don't really care what the reason might be, I am not into blame only in solutions.
Actually I would prefer a manufacturers fault since that can be resolved much more easily than a tech barrier.
Indeed the centerfold is a lot easier to address with the custom gain adjuster than any form of CA or purple fringing (not taking distortions in consideration, DxO is fairly good in fixing these).
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I have owned both medium format backs and the 1ds mark 2 and I find it usefull to debate the relative merits/problems of various companies products. If this thread isn't interesting to you there are many other threads regarding different topics. I don't know why you'd be upset by people debating this. Is dissent not tolerated?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85213\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I did NOT say that we should shut this thread down!
I am NOT upset by people debating this, I am doing it my self.
I will still read and participate in this thread
Is dissent not tolerated?
How on earth can you read that into what I said?
I just was happy that someone pointed out that we need a new thread where
we can discuss more practical and photography related MFDB topics.
Willow
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I did NOT say that we should shut this thread down!
I am NOT upset by people debating this, I am doing it my self.
I will still read and participate in this thread
How on earth can you read that into what I said?
I just was happy that someone pointed out that we need a new thread where
we can discuss more practical and photography related MFDB topics.
Willow
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85237\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think you probably could post a thread like that if you wanted to.
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This is all getting repetitive,
The bottom line is Leaf has a serious problem. They have been unsuccessful solving it and their are a number of people who have decided to either change their order, move to another manufacturer or hold off on their purchase.
The linearlity problem (Magenta/cyan split screen) that resulted from trying to fix the centerfold issue and the latest vertical magenta/cyan banding problem resulting from the newest firmware to fix the linearity magenta/cyan problem are just making people more and more frustrated.
My suggestion to Leaf is to make a worldwide announcement that all back sales and production will be stopped until these issues are worked out and a real and workable solution found.
I also think that people shoudl be constructive and not muck rakers like Edmund. I am glad that Michael put a stop to that quickly.
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The centerfold issue is specific to Non-Retrofocal lenses (large format lenses like the 24, 35, 47, and 60mm Schneider digitars). Do you know how the other backs perform with these same lenses? The eMotion, Leaf, Phase One, and Hasselblad MFDB's all suffer from a lack of uniformity using these lenses. So you can return your Leaf back, but then what are you going to replace it with? Anyone with a real interest in this issue would be asking how each manufacturer solves the issue through hardware or software, rather than demanding a refund.
Leaf and Sinar resolve this issue by creating new RAW files using reference captures to remove the defects in the image. It is a permanent and archival solution. Sinar and Leaf users can then process their RAW files in any software package.
-Eric
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85186\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
eric, this is only in parts right. the centerfold issue is created by the 6 zones of the dalsa sensor, normally just shows up the centerline. this it does under all circumstances, the line becomes just more or less visible, but its allways there. even all imagers have the issue, it just can be in a region where the tolerances are low enough that it hardly becomes visible.
the subtracting with white referemces is not a solution which will provide good enough solutions under all circumstances, although it can be good enough under many that the lwo parts of the image may look uniform enough.
the way sinar remove the cf issue is not working with inverted files, here is implemented some software code who adjust the different levels of the (6) sensor-zones to the same level.
the white references are taken fr the emotion only for compensation of vignetting and color uniformity.
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eric, this is only in parts right. the centerfold issue is created by the 6 zones of the dalsa sensor, normally just shows up the centerline. this it does under all circumstances, the line becomes just more or less visible, but its allways there. even all imagers have the issue, it just can be in a region where the tolerances are low enough that it hardly becomes visible.
the subtracting with white referemces is not a solution which will provide good enough solutions under all circumstances, although it can be good enough under many that the lwo parts of the image may look uniform enough.
the way sinar remove the cf issue is not working with inverted files, here is implemented some software code who adjust the different levels of the (6) sensor-zones to the same level.
the white references are taken fr the emotion only for compensation of vignetting and color uniformity.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85255\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks for the informative reply Rainer. I did not understand the issue this way before. I can say that with all the images from my Aptus 75 that I do not have a centerfold after the Custom Gain Adjustment. I have run the Custom Gain adjustment on about 500-1000 images so far.
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Thanks for the informative reply Rainer. I did not understand the issue this way before. I can say that with all the images from my Aptus 75 that I do not have a centerfold after the Custom Gain Adjustment. I have run the Custom Gain adjustment on about 500-1000 images so far.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85261\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
yes, it may not be visible, but it will be there. sounds illogic, but so it is,- and therefore it will depend very much on the subject, the contrast, the luminance and the colors if it becomes visible or not. there are sensors out where the specs ( dalsa claims 3% for the amps ) are hit better, in some backs good enough that the cf issue will not become visible.
in the several backs i tested, which used the dalsa33 imager i could make it visible in all, although in reality it may become visible or not, depending on these factors and of the tolerances of the sensor read out ( probably the amps..).
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yes, it may not be visible, but it will be there. sounds illogic, but so it is,- and therefore it will depend very much on the subject, the contrast, the luminance and the colors if it becomes visible or not. there are sensors out where the specs ( dalsa claims 3% for the amps ) are hit better, in some backs good enough that the cf issue will not become visible.
in the several backs i tested, which used the dalsa33 imager i could make it visible in all, although in reality it may become visible or not, depending on these factors and of the tolerances of the sensor read out ( probably the amps..).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85265\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Can you describe the working process of the Sinar solution to centerfold? Is the centerfold solution seperate from the eMotion DNG converter? Is it written into the back firmware, the computer software, ....?
I have not been able to make the centerfold evident on the RAW files which have been corrected through the Custom Gain Adjuster. For all practical purposes it does not exist. I can make the centerfold visible, on all files which have not been corrected, by extreme adjustments in contrast and color in ACR.
I am not clear how Sinar's solution works for the centerfold.
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Can you describe the working process of the Sinar solution to centerfold? Is the centerfold solution seperate from the eMotion DNG converter? Is it written into the back, the computer software, ....?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85266\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
for detailled info about that lets wait if stephan "brumbaer" want to jump in here....
the cf solution was develloped together with the improving eMotion DNG konverter,
after we have worked on the color linearity of certain dalsa sensors.
parts of this cf code have been implemented than in capture shop. the cf issue is corrected meanwhile the *.sti ( capture ) or *.dng ( eMotion DNG ) files are created.
to correct the cf issue it is NOT necessary to shoot white files or to do anything. it is corrected automatically for all files meanwhile the raw data is read out from the back memory or the cf card.
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for detailled info about that lets wait if stephan "brumbaer" want to jump in here....
the cf solution was develloped together with the improving eMotion DNG konverter,
after we have worked on the color linearity of certain dalsa sensors.
parts of this cf code have been implemented than in capture shop. the cf issue is corrected meanwhile the *.sti ( capture ) or *.dng ( eMotion DNG ) files are created.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85274\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks Rainer,
I am not looking for the technical answer that Stephan could provide. Just an understanding of the process and the results.
So lets see if I understand this....
The initial eMotion 75 files have centerfold, even if it is barely visable.
The files are corrected in the computer software after downloading.
The resulting RAW files have no centerfold remaining.
Is this correct?
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Also Rainer,
Do you find that, for color uniformity, you still shoot white files? Is it necessary with all your lenses, or just particular lenses with particular ammounts of shift?
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James, Aon,
I have been testing the backs and looking at files. My next step now is going to be to improve my client relationships, and invest some time and money in creating some storyboarded portofolio shoots with decent models. I'll buy new equipment if the clients like the setups. The Canons will have to handle this current bunch of projects for the next 3 months; I don't like the results but if it was good enough for James three years ago it will do ok for me today.
Edmund
Edmund,
Unless you use one of these backs, day in day out you really can't understand the value and consequently you won't find the issues and workarounds.
Just looking at a few frames from different sessions really tell you nothing. What looks good with flash, may not work with continuous light, what works with tungsten looks different with HMI's, what is good at 400 iso and slightly overexposed could be full of noise at 200 iso and slightly underexposed.
I see this all the time, people make generalizations of a certain brand and then report, _________ is awful or __________ is better. I've been guilty of the same and recently being able to test three backs from three manufacturers opened my eyes.
In fact I can give you compelling reasons why each back has an advantage and conversely why any of the three would be a better purchase.
Everyone wants a definative answer and in the internet age, one, two or three anomolies or even mispoken words can unfairly brand a product.
Still, the only thing that matters to me is what works for me.
My suggestion is before anyone make absolute remarks about a product is to try it and not in an hour or a day but really put it too work and find it's limits.
JR
http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/ (http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85137\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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My rep said that Hasselblad's launch of their earlier 39MP products were delayed in part by a centrefold issue too.
So I guess with the right firmware / software tweaks then Leaf will be able to do the same thing.
As others have said, I am sure they will be working hard to correct it - perhaps not an easy fault to fix!
Jo x
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Thanks Rainer,
I am not looking for the technical answer that Stephan could provide. Just an understanding of the process and the results.
So lets see if I understand this....
The initial eMotion 75 files have centerfold, even if it is barely visable.
The files are corrected in the computer software after downloading.
The resulting RAW files have no centerfold remaining.
Is this correct?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85278\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Also Rainer,
Do you find that, for color uniformity, you still shoot white files? Is it necessary with all your lenses, or just particular lenses with particular ammounts of shift?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85279\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
first question:
yes. its correct
second question and add. info:
it depends on the individual sample of the back, the dalsa33 seems not to be only different in the amount of the cf issue, it seems also different in the color uniformity.
so i saw backs with good uniformity and bad cf performance and also the opposite.
in general i want to say that the uniformity after using white files ( together with the emotion konverter ) is so good, that not any back now fits my needs without using this feature.
even i use now my old emotion22 back with white-file shooting, although before i knew this quality i havent found any problems with it about color uniformity.
but compared with white-inverted shots its a visible improvement to shoot white inv. shots.
also i like this 100% corrections of the fall offs, if i want to add ( which i rarely do ) vignetting afterwards this can simply been done in pp.
before i have had some discussions with phase users, where i never could understand that they are not bored about their need of shooting white files with their kodak sensors.... i have to correct myself here, cause for my way of shooting this kind of workflows are really no-problem.
but its important to state that it depends to 90% on the workflow the software is providing, if this way of shooting is a big or a little deal . here even details come in the game. i used some time some screw-in white plate, which i had to screw in each time and which gave me with the wideangles uneven whitefiles at the border of the images, now i have a white-shading-filter in a size of 10x10cm which i just hold in front of the lense before each shot, if i changed the lense or the movements of it. so the shot itself is done easy and fast,- what will make the sw is the time consuming step.
i shoot now before every new lense setting or new movement of the lense a white file, the emotion konverter use this file and write a ref.file out from it, i open all the shots i did in the session as batch and than the konverter use the first white-ref file for all the following shots, till it sees a new white ref-file, which is than used for all the following shots till it finds a new.......and so on. so once if you have shot the files at the set you have not to think longer about them.
you can do also more things with these white files. stephan and me we had tried many different ways of treating them, it has big impact to the image quality, especially if it comes to long exposure times. here can be brought in additional noise if the rendering of the white shots is not done clever. blue blotches may appear, and many other little bad effects,- which only will show up if you are willed to analyse the resulting files critical. the way these files are rendered is very important for the resulting image quality.
but back to your question: to remove the cf issue the white file shooting is not neccesary,
for many users there will be no need to use the whitefile shootings cause the color uniformity
will be good enough for their needs. depends also on their approach.
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OKAY...great to know that there are so many haters!!
I went with the leaf back, because of the service the rep in SOCAL provided AND because of the quality of the images (which in my eyes and for my work were of better quality than the Phase back...it was a close call..and if I would have shot product..I would have chosen the Phase, but for people the Phase was to sharp for me)
BACK to the problem:
I have been shooting with the A65 for about 3 weeks and over 7000 images....the images look fantastic!! It is like I am shooting film again!! Huge clean clear files!
All the BS about workflow!! I didn't have to change my workflow at all.....I have the same workflow as with my canon....upload the CF card and edit the images in either photo mechanic (the previews are a little to small!), lightroom (love the program.....color control is a clear winner) or adobe bridge (which is the best and fast enough for now!) I never even opened leaf software and hated the Phase one software (don't care what "the others" say....it is to slow and intuitive at all....maybe when you get used to it later...but I live now and not later!)
So I shot a couple of test shots (not to test the back, but the camera and lens I just got back from Mamiya) I shot an image at 800 iso very very underexposed instudio (hardly any daylight) and no strobes......and I discovered the greenish left side and magenta right side......not a good thing...BUT I never shoot at 800 iso and never shoot this underexposed!! Ofcourse it scared the S... out of my and I checked all (almost all) the images I have shot.....NO PROBLEMS...NO COLOR CAST....NO GREEN LEFT AND MAGENTA RIGHT.....so for me there is no reason to panic!!
I tested the back today in daylight....and very underexposed I saw the green left and magenta right showing up on the camera back....BUT when I opened the image in Bridge..there was no colorcast or any problem at all.
Am I going to send the back back??? I don't know....it seems that there is no solution and I can't stop shooting! Since the problem doesn't show in my regular studio work AT ALL!!! I am fine for now...I am trading up to an A65s when it comes out and hope that by then the problems are solved all together!!
As for all the "jumper down the throath posters" RELAX!! My Leaf images look about 60% better than my Canon Ds1MkII images and I love my canon camera!!
What I really don't like about my leaf A65 back is that I have to re-boot it a lot during my shoots!! I hope that they will work on the startup time of the back!!
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Thank you for the detailed reply Rainer. It sounds like Sinar currently has the best solution for shooting architecture. I like that the software detects the white file automatically. This is my biggest problem with Leaf right now. I must assign the white reference image to each group of captures and hit the process button (While you are out getting an espresso, I am sitting at the computer selecting reference files).
Aside from this, the quality of the Leaf correction is very high. I have not seen any degradation of the images. It is also nice with Leaf to be able to adjust the percentage of falloff removal.
Like you, I had problems with the supplied white diffuser. I took a chisel and a sander to it and the resulting white reference files no longer get darker at the edges than they should.
-Eric
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What I really don't like about my leaf A65 back is that I have to re-boot it a lot during my shoots!! I hope that they will work on the startup time of the back!!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85314\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hey Nicholas, are you using Capture V8 or 10? I work with an A75 almost daily and it's a bit finicky on connection issues as well. Doesn't stop it from making a beautiful file though, and that's coming from a Phase owner.
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Hey Nicholas, are you using Capture V8 or 10? I work with an A75 almost daily and it's a bit finicky on connection issues as well. Doesn't stop it from making a beautiful file though, and that's coming from a Phase owner.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85411\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I shoot only to CF card..never used their software and probably never will.....preview my images in Bridge during the shoot.
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I shoot only to CF card..never used their software and probably never will.....preview my images in Bridge during the shoot.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85541\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Just FYI, I do the same, but if you want to tether... I turn on LC8 and use the "Auto Save button" rather than the "Rapid shoot". Your images will still come up in Bridge, but they will also refresh in LC8 as well (which they don't with Rapid Shoot), instead of going to the ContactSheet program. This way you just click back to LC8 when you want to check focus, which is a little faster than opening in ACR and zooming in.
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Rainer,
More questions please....
-The automatic correction of the centerfold in the Sinar software, roughly how much time does it take per image? Is it something that you just turn on when not using retrofocus lenses, or does it process every image?
-How long does the colorcast correction with the DNG converter take with each image?
-Can the DNG's which are output by Brumbaer's DNG converter be processed in the Sinar Capture software, or do you have to use other programs like ACR, Lightroom, and RAW Developer?
-Is any of this software still Beta or Alpha? Or is it commonly available to eMotion users?
Thanks for your time in answering any of these questions.
-Eric
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Rainer,
More questions please....
-The automatic correction of the centerfold in the Sinar software, roughly how much time does it take per image? Is it something that you just turn on when not using retrofocus lenses, or does it process every image?
-How long does the colorcast correction with the DNG converter take with each image?
-Can the DNG's which are output by Brumbaer's DNG converter be processed in the Sinar Capture software, or do you have to use other programs like ACR, Lightroom, and RAW Developer?
-Is any of this software still Beta or Alpha? Or is it commonly available to eMotion users?
Thanks for your time in answering any of these questions.
-Eric
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=85558\")
i am not very familiar with capture, i use the eMotion konverter only.
capture is slow for my taste, at least compared with stephans programm, so i am a stephan-only user, maybe for my involvemnt in this programm, for me the workflow it is fastest and best.
the cf issue correction should not eat much time in capture also.
the cf correction works with every lense and with every back,
it finds the offset between the sensor zones and adjust them.
in stephans tool you can switch it on or off, i let it on allways.
the eMotion konverter needs for writing a dng file from the emotion33,
measured with my g4 laptop 1,67ghz, 2gb ram:
no cf correction, no white file : 17sec
cf issue corrected, white file corrected: 18 sec.
so here is little difference for the correction and its fast.
same done with my quad mac2.5 ghz, 4,5gb ram needs 8-9 seconds.
the dngs can be processed in acr, lightroom and iridient, this are the programms i use, so there might be more programs who can read them.
if stephans programm is beta, alpha or omega i cant say,- i did not found any image faults in the last several hundred files,- so i cant ask him at the moment to improve the quality of the conversion cause i simply have not more critic. also its very stable and works on intel macs also, using the new code.
we talk about to improve the implementation of color profiles, and how to interprete them,- but that leads to far here. at the moment there can be used simultaneous for the conversion two color profiles, a.e. one with 5500kelvin and one with 3200. the converter interpolates between the two, if you have set the color in the shooting correctly in the back.
the emotion konverter writes this color profiles if you shoot a gretag card make a kalibration in the tool. you see it can by far more than simply convert to dng.
the programm has also one big advantage over all the other mf programms i know. it has a sophisitcated highlight recovery, which bring down highlights with remarkable efficency- usually between one or two! stops headroom, which makes the shooting in hi-contrast scenes much more easy. very important feature.
it is available for free from stephans page.
[a href=\"http://www.brumbaer.com/Tools/Tools.html]http://www.brumbaer.com/Tools/Tools.html[/url]
i am not sure if sinar already gave out the software to download for its customers with the cf code, but it is implemented since several weeks.
interesting is in any case that also older .sti files out from capture can be converted to dng with stephans programm, with the cf issue corrected.
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Just FYI, I do the same, but if you want to tether... I turn on LC8 and use the "Auto Save button" rather than the "Rapid shoot". Your images will still come up in Bridge, but they will also refresh in LC8 as well (which they don't with Rapid Shoot), instead of going to the ContactSheet program. This way you just click back to LC8 when you want to check focus, which is a little faster than opening in ACR and zooming in.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85548\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
thanks Eric I have to try this..because it is faster to shoot the "polaroids" like that and then swithc to CF cards.
Will try it on the next shoot!
Nicolaas