Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: kendal on November 06, 2006, 03:25:59 pm
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Are there any news on the Hy6 project since photokina?
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What type of news are you looking for?
Don't expect cameras to be delivered until the second quarter of '07 at the earliest. Look for a PMA tiem frame announcement.
It now looks as if all the back makers, except of course Hasselblad, are involved.
Michael
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What type of news are you looking for?
Don't expect cameras to be delivered until the second quarter of '07 at the earliest. Look for a PMA tiem frame announcement.
It now looks as if all the back makers, except of course Hasselblad, are involved.
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=83848\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Michael
Do you have news of Phase involvement ?
One telling remark in the latest press announcement is about "larger sensors". This will make Hasselbad very unhappy, as Kodak can of course choose to upsize their sensors, if they're prepared to swallow the cost.
Edmund
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"It now looks as if all the back makers, except of course Hasselblad, are involved."
Michael
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"It now looks as if all the back makers, except of course Hasselblad, are involved."
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=83858\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Please see the attached PDF for an updated press-release from Leaf and Jenoptik.
Yair
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Please see the attached PDF for an updated press-release from Leaf and Jenoptik.
Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=83884\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi Yair
Is this going to affect the relationship with Mamiya & Leaf in the US? As they are both distrubuted by the MAC group. Or will Leaf support both camera companies since Hasselblad future developments will only support Imacon. I use my Mamiya with a Aptus 22.
Thanks Denis
montalbetticampbell.com
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Hi Yair
Is this going to affect the relationship with Mamiya & Leaf in the US? As they are both distrubuted by the MAC group. Or will Leaf support both camera companies since Hasselblad future developments will only support Imacon. I use my Mamiya with a Aptus 22.
Thanks Denis
montalbetticampbell.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=83891\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No it won't, at least not as long as Mamiya make camera bodies that are open for taking 3rd party digital backs.
Yair
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Michael
Do you have news of Phase involvement ?
One telling remark in the latest press announcement is about "larger sensors". This will make Hasselbad very unhappy, as Kodak can of course choose to upsize their sensors, if they're prepared to swallow the cost.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=83851\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Why would this upset Hasselblad?
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Why would this upset Hasselblad?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=83931\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Because Hasselblad have "locked down" their new design and marketing to 48x36mm and if the new sensors are larger Hasselblad will have marketing omelette all over their face.
Edmund
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But, but, but....
The H3 is the world first "Full Frame MF DSLR". How can anything be bigger than Full Frame?
Oh. You mean the new Hasselblad with the cropped viewfinder? Now I get it.
Michael
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But, but, but....
The H3 is the world first "Full Frame MF DSLR". How can anything be bigger than Full Frame?
Oh. You mean the new Hasselblad with the cropped viewfinder? Now I get it.
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=83955\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
And my Canon 5D is "Full Frame and a Half " (APS-C).
Eric
Or maybe it's "Double Full Frame" (Minox.)
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But, but, but....
The H3 is the world first "Full Frame MF DSLR". How can anything be bigger than Full Frame?
Oh. You mean the new Hasselblad with the cropped viewfinder? Now I get it.
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=83955\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I really don't understand why people are angry at Hasselblad. Since I don't own or use there cameras maybe it just doesn't register with me, but who can blame a company for maximizing their resources?
I would do the same thing, actually I do the same thing as I don't rent my studios, or hire out my staff to others.
Hasselblad will obviously try to make their back more attractive.
If I was a Phase owner I would be less upset by hasselblad and more upset with the PR release of the Mamiya Phase hookup as regardless of sharpness, detail, lens quality, I don't think many people are that overwhelmed with the build quality of the Mamiya 645.
Still, my suggestion to anyone is not to sell their contax equipment and then not really worry about what any one company does.
JR
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I just talked to the Phase mothership. They are working with Mamiya, working with Rollei, and locked out from the H3.
Edmund
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Are there any news on the Hy6 project since photokina?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=83847\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Can anyone tell me the advantages of an Hy6 over the current Rollei exept it is a bit smaller and has a prism finder??
SMM
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Can anyone tell me the advantages of an Hy6 over the current Rollei exept it is a bit smaller and has a prism finder??
SMM
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=83982\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
1) The fact that the latest popular Leaf & Phase digital backs will fit on the Hy6
2) non-proprietory battery
3) dampened mirror action
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1) The fact that the latest popular Leaf & Phase digital backs will fit on the Hy6
If you send tham back to the factory for a re-jig (current owners)
2) non-proprietory battery
3) dampened mirror action
is that different from "Swinging mirror with pre-release facility... and pneumatic damping "
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MM,
I'm responding to your question what advantage the new Hy6 will have over the 6008.
AFAIK, Leaf & Phase One digital backs have not ever been available in Rollei 6008 mount, so that will be the main difference.
(With the exception of the P20, which Rollei OEM'ed by buying a whole bunch, mounting them and offering their bundle).
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Morgan,
The Hy6 and the 6008 are night and day. THe 6008 does not have the ability to take any other back other than Sinar backs or the P20 package. The lenses are second to none.
On Hasselblad.
I spent some time at Photoshow looking around and playing. Hasselblads booth was a bit of an shame. They use to have one of the biggest booths at Photoshow next to Canon and Epson. This time they had one little glass counter all the way in the back with not much to show.
The thing about Hasselblad is that they could very easily have closed the H3 without many problems and kept the V series alive without the needs for syncing cables. What blew me away on the V series with their digi back was that any manufacturer would have jumped to make a back for them. The trigger that detects if the darkslide is in on all V bodies ever made is what triggers the digital V back. This would be very simple for all makers to adapt if Hassy hadn't jumped at the H1 so hard. The only body with a problem would have been the 553/555 series of backs and this would only effect the Leaf/Imacon backs due to their battery. The Phase and Sinar backs would have fit with out a problem (I believe) i don't know sinar. So Hasselblad could have very easily made it happen and kept everyone happy. I know I would have switched from my RZ to Hassy V if it would have been cable free. Instead I went to the H1. Which I am sure was their plan to keep you in Hasselblad and sell new stuff. They could be selling the V, H2 and the H3 closed.
But they could have stayed a very viable company with two systems the V and the H and given people the ability to use the 38 Biogon and other amazing V products as well as the H depending on what you worked in. The PM45 was a great prism and I hope the Hy6 adapts one. The Ikon could have been a great competition to the Leica M8. I don't think it would have gotten them more customers, but it would have allowed all Hassy V people to stay in their cameras and move up slowly. The rental market would have stayed V for a lot of people. I still know some Asian and European shooters that prefer the V mount hassy with cables and all.
For now I am sticking with my P25 & A75 digi backs on my H1's and Power PC Macs. I guess in about a year from now I will be looking into the Hy6 and Intel Macs. But for now as RJ said, It works almost bullet proof and it's fast. I don't need to spend more time learning knew stuff, tweaking new software and reauthorizing accross four machines.
I need to be printing more books, producing more estimates, and shooting more for myself just a small tripod, a camera and body wondering around the city.
I though about getting an Intel machine just as a shoot to process station. But what I have works well and flies. You sometimes get caught up in all this crap.
Best of luck to all of you with your choices. Anyone in the market for new equipment I would go with the least expensive MF system i.e. a used AFD II with a digi back on what ever mount. Make sure that when you buy that mount you have 12 months to change mounts. Then look at the Hy6 when it is a working machine.
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Instead I went to the H1. Which I am sure was their plan to keep you in Hasselblad and sell new stuff. They could be selling the V, H2 and the H3 closed.
But they could have stayed a very viable company with two systems the V and the H and given people the ability to use the 38 Biogon and other amazing V products as well as the H depending on what you worked in. The PM45 was a great prism and I hope the Hy6 adapts one.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=83992\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
As you says, Hasselblad want to sell new cameras and the old are much or less gone. It´s just business.
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WHAT!?
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Here's another version of the Jenoptik-Leaf PR (http://www.jenoptik.com/cps/rde/xchg/SID-26EE34DB-3F7D089F/jenoptik/hs.xsl/4582_4595.htm)
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I just talked to the Phase mothership. They are working with Mamiya, working with Rollei, and locked out from the H3.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=83977\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi
Do you know how close they will be working with Mamiya?
Thanks Denis
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I just talked to the Phase mothership. They are working with Mamiya, working with Rollei, and locked out from the H3.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=83977\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes Edmund,
But NOT the H2.
There is no H3!! Why do us owners have to keep saying this?
Jo
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There is no H3!!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=84091\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I believe that is why they are locked out from it.
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I believe that is why they are locked out from it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=84172\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
There is something that says H3D on the box. I konw because my dealer has the boxes.
Edmund
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Can anyone tell me the advantages of an Hy6 over the current Rollei exept it is a bit smaller and has a prism finder??
SMM
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=83982\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I hate to rain on the Hy6 Parade, but having handled the Hy6 in NYC last week at Photo Plus, I came away singularly unimpressed with it as a camera platform, for me. It had the ergonomics of a brick in my hands. It did not feel at all like a camera that had been(or was being) designed from the ground up in this century, but rather felt to me like it was being cobbled together from the parts bin of Rollei to minimize R&D and tooling costs. I have shot with the Contax and the H series, and there is no comparison in how those cameras feel as tools. Of course, the camera I handled was only a prototype, but my understanding was that the basic physical design was not going to change from the prototype.
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Please see the attached PDF for an updated press-release from Leaf and Jenoptik.
Yair
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=83884\")
So it seems that Leaf/Jenoptik will use Dalsa's chips in their future HY6. I'm a bit surprised at Kodak for leaving Leaf alone to use a competitor's chip. I wonder for how long.
-N
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[a href=\"http://www.stoqq.com]http://www.stoqq.com[/url]
Nick Vasilopoulos
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Why would this upset Hasselblad?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=83931\")
The next chips will be 48x48, try to fit that on a 645...
Personally I'd prefer, a true full-frame (56mmx42mm) 645 chip, but no one asked me.
As for the Rollei/Hy6/AFi, the body had to be built from the ground up, but it will take all the old Rollei 6000 series glass, though you might want to wait for the autofocus versions of the lenses they'll be bringing out. Consider Summer 2007 to be the earliest you'll see this thing. More like this time next year, but so far it looks very nice...
If Michael is right and Phase is joining Leaf and Sinar and is hooking up with this baby too, it's very good news for Phase users.
Brian Smith
[a href=\"http://www.briansmithphoto.com]www.briansmithphoto.com[/url]
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There are already some Schneider AF lenses for the Rollei.
50mm F2.8 HFT
80mm F2.8 HFT
180mm F2.8 HFT
60-140mm F4.6 HFT
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The next chips will be 48x48, try to fit that on a 645...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85060\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Do you have a source for that statement?
Michael has indicated, based on contacts with both Kodak and Dalsa, that the next generation of sensors will be no larger than the current largest ones: Kodak's 49x37mm and Dalsa's 48x36mm.
Frankly, I believe that the Rollei PR department is blowing smoke with its talk about possible larger future sensors, in an attempt to make a case for staying with its anachronistic 6x6 format which everyone else has abandoned in favor of 645 and smaller.
And if sensors do get a bit larger, all recent trends suggest that they would stay with 4:3 shape, and so stay with in the 56x42.5mm of 645 format. What sensor maker would be crazy enough to design a sensor not usable with the current Hasselblad-Imacon or Mamiya (or Pentax) AF bodies and lenses, but only with Rollei based ones?
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Do you have a source for that statement?
Michael has indicated, based on contacts with both Kodak and Dalsa, that the next generation of sensors will be no larger than the current largest ones: Kodak's 49x37mm and Dalsa's 48x36mm.
Frankly, I believe that the Rollei PR department is blowing smoke with its talk about possible larger future sensors, in an attempt to make a case for staying with its anachronistic 6x6 format which everyone else has abandoned in favor of 645 and smaller.
And if sensors do get a bit larger, all recent trends suggest that they would stay with 4:3 shape, and so stay with in the 56x42.5mm of 645 format. What sensor maker would be crazy enough to design a sensor not usable with the current Hasselblad-Imacon or Mamiya (or Pentax) AF bodies and lenses, but only with Rollei based ones?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85436\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
BJL,
nobody has never said that the "rumour" of a next 48x48 chip generation comes from Rollei. I doubt they have ever said this.
Aon
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I hate to rain on the Hy6 Parade, but having handled the Hy6 in NYC last week at Photo Plus, I came away singularly unimpressed with it as a camera platform, for me.
Please keep in mind that the prototypes aren't even made of the materials that will be final. These were partially mockups of special plastic and they were simply painted. That's why they showed so much wear at last PhotoPlus Expo . Please see my update on the final Rollei Hy6 design (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/lofiversion/index.php/t13135.html) at this forum.
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Please keep in mind that the prototypes aren't even made of the materials that will be final. These were partially mockups of special plastic and they were simply painted. That's why they showed so much wear at last PhotoPlus Expo . Please see my update on the final Rollei Hy6 design (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/lofiversion/index.php/t13135.html) at this forum.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=85494\")
I just found the following link on FM, it's a pretty interestiing brochure, hope it's not redundant in thsi thread.
[a href=\"http://s_gravesen.perso.libello.com/HY6%20engl..pdf]http://s_gravesen.perso.libello.com/HY6%20engl..pdf[/url]
Edmund
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finally some real (no 3D) pictures, thanks!
next some bundle prices like the Rolleiflex 6008 - Sinarback Super-Digitalbundle would be nice
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nobody has never said that the "rumour" of a next 48x48 chip generation comes from Rollei.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85441\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
My comment about Rollei was only about vaguer talk of "larger sensors", not 48x48 in particular, which I think is purely a speculation by poster Brian Smith.
The "larger sensors" talk came from earlier in this thread by Edmund (eronald): "One telling remark in the latest press announcement is about "larger sensors". This will make Hasselblad very unhappy". I took that to be a reference to a press announcement from Rollei, touting the virtue of its system designed around 56x56mm ("6x6") over systems designed around 56x42.5mm ("645 format") or 49x37mm ("Hasselblad-Imacon 48mm format").
And I maintain that Hasselblad-Imacon is probably not the slightest bit worried about those fictional bigger sensors, having discussed future sensor sizes with Kodak before designing the H3.
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And I maintain that Hasselblad-Imacon is probably not the slightest bit worried about those fictional bigger sensors, having discussed future sensor sizes with Kodak before designing the H3.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85840\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Ya, cuz Hasselblad is so very communicative.
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Fair warning, what I say about bigger sensors within about 2 years is speculation on my part. Although if I cited words from a press release, those words were certainly there.
I would agree that Hasselblad probably have a plan for dealing with the larger sensors. However Nikon had one too, and made a lot of money, but a lot of pros left them nevertheless.
Edmund
My comment about Rollei was only about vaguer talk of "larger sensors", not 48x48 in particular, which I think is purely a speculation by poster Brian Smith.
The "larger sensors" talk came from earlier in this thread by Edmund (eronald): "One telling remark in the latest press announcement is about "larger sensors". This will make Hasselblad very unhappy". I took that to be a reference to a press announcement from Rollei, touting the virtue of its system designed around 56x56mm ("6x6") over systems designed around 56x42.5mm ("645 format") or 49x37mm ("Hasselblad-Imacon 48mm format").
And I maintain that Hasselblad-Imacon is probably not the slightest bit worried about those fictional bigger sensors, having discussed future sensor sizes with Kodak before designing the H3.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85840\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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So it seems that Leaf/Jenoptik will use Dalsa's chips in their future HY6. I'm a bit surprised at Kodak for leaving Leaf alone to use a competitor's chip. I wonder for how long.
-N
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http://www.stoqq.com (http://www.stoqq.com)
Nick Vasilopoulos
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=84363\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes, I wounder about that too. Kodak seems to be leaving Leaf alone in many ways. Just a feeling I have.
Kevin
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Yes, I wounder about that too. Kodak seems to be leaving Leaf alone in many ways. Just a feeling I have.
Kevin
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=88825\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
If some camera Brand, Mamyia, rolley ecc.. will make a camera like Mamyia RZ67 Pro II I will buy it, with wide lenses
If the Digital back Will have with bigger size sensor that have the same quality of the film, or shneider, rodenstock, mamiya, will make some wide lenses with tilt and shift, I'll be happy!
I don't need a bigger size file,but a colr quality perfect, without color cast without problem to use.
Like a film. For my commercial work II'm happy with My P25 and Contax 645, but for my art work I still use Mamiya with film.
Fabrizio
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I have big expectations for the Hy6 and if everything comes out as I imagine I'm going to be an early adopter.
I'm currently shooting a Canon 1Ds MK2, a Canon 5D, a Hasselblad H1 with P25 back and a Mamiya RZ67 Pro II. And while the Canons are fine but far from perfect I'm really most unhappy with the Hasselblad H1 that behaves like Windows at times (remove battery to restart) and is ergonomically just not made for humans obviously.
The entire weight of the camera rests on the inner side of the thumb. How akward is that? Then every portrait/fashion/ whatever shooter has to turn around the camera all day long to shoot verticals and there's no sensible option like a vertical grip. I even prefer to handhold the RZ all day long with the lefthander grip over the Hassy. What a messy camera that should be "modern"... at 1/30 sec the H1 gives you such a bad mirrorslap that the shots have visible camerashake(or how you call that... mirrorslap-motionblur? ).
The RZ I shot at 1/8 handholding it and got sharp pictures out of it. I mean... a 7x7 mirror should slap more than a 645 mirror... right???
The possible rotation of the back alone is going to be a gift to many Hy6 shooters in the future. Also the grip seems to be more ergonomical.
I've ordered two 1Ds MK3 already (or whatever they're going to be called) but the Hy6 could replace the Hassy H1 with the P25 very quickly.
What's wrong with todays Hasselblad anyway... making everything proprietary, slow and giving it no thought just doesn't deliver what their IMAGE would suggest. Stuff like pressing the right icon to rotate LEFT is just silly. The newest version of Flexcolor crashes at least 5 times per day whenever I use it and is dead slow. If you're using an Imacon 949 scanner with flexcolor you can't adjust the 3fff scans while the scanner is scanning. Multitasking? Multithreading? Helloooo? Any student at MIT could do better I guess... and worst of it all is the pricetag. What a joke. Hasselblad died for me with their H3D closed system move.
Btw, I don't need a bigger sensor than 645 (which would be nice...) but the revolving back would be oooooh so sweet. Over 95% of my shots are vertical.
Now if only the quality of the pixels would improve instead of only the resolution. How about a Foveon type of sensor for mediumformat backs? Or the fuji idea with two different size pixels for improved dynamic range.
Just dreaming....
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The RZ I shot at 1/8 handholding it and got sharp pictures out of it. I mean... a 7x7 mirror should slap more than a 645 mirror... right???
The possible rotation of the back alone is going to be a gift to many Hy6 shooters in the future. Also the grip seems to be more ergonomical.
Boris is there a reason why you don't use the RZ to shoot digitally?
[span style=\'font-size:7pt;line-height:100%\']Yair Shahar | Regional Manager | Leaf EMEA |
mob: +44 77 8992 8199 | yair.shahar@kodak.com | www.leaf-photography.com
Leaf, part of Kodak's Graphic Communications Group
[/span]
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The latest online version of the British Journal of Photography has some new information about the Hy6, including what appears to be "official" confirmation that the only MFDBs that will be part of the program are the Leaf and Sinar backs.
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The article states "It has been confirmed that no other digital back manufacturer will be involved in the Hy6/AFi project."
How involved was PhaseOne with the Hasselblad H project? Or the Contax 645 project... or the Hasselblad V project? But, they have backs for all those cameras.
Jeff
The latest online version of the British Journal of Photography has some new information about the Hy6, including what appears to be "official" confirmation that the only MFDBs that will be part of the program are the Leaf and Sinar backs.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=95143\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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That article also says that there will be a Rollei branded Hy6. That would only seem to make sense as a platform for backs from manufacturers other than Leaf and Sinar, who'll have their own "flavors" of Hy6 cameras. Or, I guess the Rollei branded Hy6 could also make sense from a film-based standpoint...
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That article also says that there will be a Rollei branded Hy6. That would only seem to make sense as a platform for backs from manufacturers other than Leaf and Sinar, who'll have their own "flavors" of Hy6 cameras. Or, I guess the Rollei branded Hy6 could also make sense from a film-based standpoint...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=95381\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think you should take these statements at face value. The message is clear to me: Phase is OUT of the Hy6 project. I am sure that if Phase were in on the project, the statements on the record from all involved would be totally different. Phase iteself would be quick to set the record straight if it were not as it appears to be.
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Hi
I think you have to look at it as a business model. Jenoptik owns Sinar and have funded this camera. Sinar & Leaf used to work together in early 2000. This seems a way of gaining market share for both Leaf & Sinar over Phase ( especially Sinar ).
I am caught in the middle, I perfer Leaf & Mamiya. Looks like Phase is going to have to do something serious with Mamiya. As Mamiya is the only open platform left in the MFD market. I will look at the new Hy6 but I will have to consider the price? From my contacts the Hy6 is only a Sinar & Leaf platform and I first heard about this camera in May 2006.( from my contacts)
Thanks Denis
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Hi
I think you have to look at it as a business model. Jenoptik owns Sinar and have funded this camera. Sinar & Leaf used to work together in early 2000. This seems a way of gaining market share for both Leaf & Sinar over Phase ( especially Sinar ).
I am caught in the middle, I perfer Leaf & Mamiya. Looks like Phase is going to have to do something serious with Mamiya. As Mamiya is the only open platform left in the MFD market. I will look at the new Hy6 but I will have to consider the price? From my contacts the Hy6 is only a Sinar & Leaf platform and I first heard about this camera in May 2006.( from my contacts)
Thanks Denis
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=95425\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
This is true - although my expectation is that at some point, Phase will work with the Hy6 camera - Rollei branded or whoever. But I could be wrong.
However, you've hit upon a key element. It's already been clarified that it's difficult to endure as a non-digital camera only company and thrive. While Jenoptik would sell more cameras if Phase was a licensed partner, that would not necessarily provide higher profits, than if Phase One market share was impacted by the lack of camera platforms and Sinar digital backs improved their market share as a result. The increase in digital back market share profits would likely trump the profits from the sale of more cameras. It's a tough market out there, and the stakes are high.
I think right now, contractually, Phase is out. But that may be for a limited period of time. Clearly, if they had hard news, they would be trumpeting it. Somewhere, there are some lawyers who are not talking, and that frees us up for speculation - our favorite pastime!
Steve Hendrix
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And Sinar is taking over distribution of Rollei professional products. This is even more telling, and at the same time, provides even more murkiness. Will Sinar be selling open platform Rolleiflex Hy6's to Phase One? It's hard to see how this is all going to play out. We need to get at those lawyers.
Steve Hendrix
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However, you've hit upon a key element. It's already been clarified that it's difficult to endure as a non-digital camera only company and thrive. While Jenoptik would sell more cameras if Phase was a licensed partner, that would not necessarily provide higher profits,
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=95472\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Steve,
You've alluded to this before and it doesn't make sense to me. Why is it that camera companies could thrive selling film only cameras, knowing that had no part in the profits of film and processing, though they can't survive unless the camera maker gets a profit from the db sale?
I think it's just a matter of volume and db's are/were so expensive and until now so difficult to use withhout a comuter, they lost all most of their market to Canon.
To me for any medim format camera to survive they must sell a lot of cameras and lenses and I still hold to the thought if Phase or Leaf or anyone had offered a $7,000 digitial back with a good lcd 4 years ago, many people would have never bought Canon's in the first place and Contax, maybe even Bronica would still be around.
Still, I find it hard to believe that Rollei, or F+H or HY6 (I really don't know who owns what) doesn't sell this camera to the #1 and #3 digital back markets the camera won't be around for long.
Given all of this, everything about the HY6 is just conjecture and until it hits the street and is available on shelves and is actually tested by the users, none of this matters.
The only thing that really matters with digital capture for commerce is what works today.
JR
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Steve,
You've alluded to this before and it doesn't make sense to me. Why is it that camera companies could thrive selling film only cameras, knowing that had no part in the profits of film and processing, though they can't survive unless the camera maker gets a profit from the db sale?
I think it's just a matter of volume and db's are/were so expensive and until now so difficult to use withhout a comuter, they lost all most of their market to Canon.
To me for any medim format camera to survive they must sell a lot of cameras and lenses and I still hold to the thought if Phase or Leaf or anyone had offered a $7,000 digitial back with a good lcd 4 years ago, many people would have never bought Canon's in the first place and Contax, maybe even Bronica would still be around.
Still, I find it hard to believe that Rollei, or F+H or HY6 (I really don't know who owns what) doesn't sell this camera to the #1 and #3 digital back markets the camera won't be around for long.
Given all of this, everything about the HY6 is just conjecture and until it hits the street and is available on shelves and is actually tested by the users, none of this matters.
The only thing that really matters with digital capture for commerce is what works today.
JR
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James:
My conjecture is that, as you hinted at, it's really a volume deal. Bronica and Contax were doing fine, until photographers started spending their money on Canon SLR's instead. Then, their numbers went way down, and sales numbers are critical to the relationship of manufacturing costs and selling prices. So the formula changed and it no longer worked.
I believe that still holds true today and that trend will continue as Canon and Nikon continue to evolve their products - they get much closer to medium format quality than they did in the film days, which puts even more pressure on the MFDB's to up the ante, adding to their development costs and putting pressure on their pofitability. Digital is the only way these companies can survive long term, because it does have a chance (not a guarantee) of producing adequate profitability.
You're dead on the money with regard to nothing matters until we see the product. And while it's exciting to me to see new product in medium format, I have some concerns about these new products even before they hit the street, not least among them the price tag, which I believe everyone is overlooking. Rollei cameras and lenses traditionally are among the highest costing gear in medium format. That puts even more pressure on the product to really deliver - I mean it needs to hit the ground running and clicking on all cylinders or else folks are gonna swallow real hard about forking out $6K - $8K for a kit and $3K - $6K per lens.
Steve Hendrix
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I mean it needs to hit the ground running and clicking on all cylinders or else folks are gonna swallow real hard about forking out $6K - $8K for a kit and $3K - $6K per lens.
Steve Hendrix
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You are right about that! I would be willing to fork out that kind of money to my dreamkit. A piece of equipment that would make me get rid of all other systems that I also own and use.
The killer camera system (like the killer app.).
Sofar none of the currently available stuff has all the elements that I am looking for and the Hy6 system is looking to become no exception.
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James:That puts even more pressure on the product to really deliver - I mean it needs to hit the ground running and clicking on all cylinders or else folks are gonna swallow real hard about forking out $6K - $8K for a kit and $3K - $6K per lens.
Steve Hendrix
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Steve,
This is the key. Whatever is sold must be perfect and complete out of the gate.
Hardware, software, useability under pressure.
Everything that is written on the PDF must be delivered.
I don't hold out a lot of hope for a camera system with $4,000 lenses, unless the system is complete, the camera is robust and the digital part that goes on the back is as close to perfect as possible.
For me to take a meager (by digital standards) $11,000 investment (with 10 lenses, 3 bodies, two prisms, etc.) of a Contax system and trade it in on a camera and three lenses will be $18,000 is not a viable alternative if the digital back is not the very best one available and if the camera platform is not open to all of the digital backs.
To me these type of numbers push people further towards Canon, not away from Canon.
A $30,000 digital back with a $18,000 camera system is a lot to swallow in one move, if the alternative dslr only cost $7,000 and lenses average $1,200.
In comparison my P-30 with the Contax is around 1/2 of that $48,000 investment.
JR
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I guess that Phase just missed to jump on the train. They probably want(ed) to wait how the camera sells and then decide.
Ayway, i'm quite sure id they want to make a back to fits, they can. But if the camera is only sold together with a new back, who would buy a Phase back?
I once was interested in the Sinar m camera and asked around if Phase would do a mount for it. Sinar answered if Phase wants tomake a back for it, they can. Phase said, if this camera sells well(i suppose it doesn't;-))) ), they will..
tom
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Yeah. my Contax + P30 is looking better and better, since it remains unclear whether Phase will get in on the Hy6 project and, even if it does, how "tight" the final product will be in light of F&H and Jenoptik not looking realy open to Phase involvement from the ground up...
A $30,000 digital back with a $18,000 camera system is a lot to swallow in one move, if the alternative dslr only cost $7,000 and lenses average $1,200.
In comparison my P-30 with the Contax is around 1/2 of that $48,000 investment.
JR
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I use Mamiya because it is an affordable system at the moment. You can put any of the DB on this camera so at least it is open. Phase has been in talks with Mamiya. This is a good oportunity for Phase to get well priced kits on the market with Mamiya. I have a great range of Mamiya glass that are less expensive than Canon lenses on ebay. After all Mamiya will have a 28mm in a few months and if Phase can provide corrective software for this lens that is a bonus for both parties involved. I look forward to the new Hy6 camera but I would just rent it on a job if I needed it.
Thanks Denis
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Yeah. my Contax + P30 is looking better and better, since it remains unclear whether Phase will get in on the Hy6 project and, even if it does, how "tight" the final product will be in light of F&H and Jenoptik not looking realy open to Phase involvement from the ground up...
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Just going from the statements by the manufacturer's reps and that bjp article;
I think it's funny that the three back manufacturer's with the most "challenged" software are the three that are trying to lock out Phase, or I guess in their terms, "secure a competitive edge in the market".
Personally I think they would all be better off to invest in software that equaled C-1, better lcd's, faster workflows, rather than spend time trying to lock anyone out of a camera platform.
All three, Sinar, Leaf and Hasselblad have software suites "to come", though C-1 is is stable, funcitonal and professional today, hence the reason Phase leads the market.
I think this says more for the state of professional photography equipment than almost any development I've seen in since the start of digital capture.
Victor Hasselblad would never have made a camera that only accepted one brand of film.
These type of proprietary systems are not designed by artists their are cooked up in conference rooms.
Maybe I'm stubborn, but I want to be able to chose my camera and my film (digital) in any combination that suits my style.
I don't want to have to be locked into any one camera, any one lense or any one digital back.
I want more options than I had with film, not less.
JR
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A $30,000 digital back with a $18,000 camera system is a lot to swallow in one move,
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You are right, upgrading both camera and back at the same time hurts. In the last 12 months I have acquired an H1 outfit and an e22. If I already had the H1, the back would probably have been a 33 or 39 Mp model. But here are a few thoughts..
But I'm not sure the size of the investment is out of step with our profession. If you compare it to the company car a resonable sales rep might have, or the shop fitout of costs of a retail shop, what is the value of the best tools of trade? I think the distinction of having gear noticably different to what the local school is using for high school students is a business investment that needs to be considered if there is a quality difference for the sort of work you do and also so the client notices that your gear is different to his brother-in-law's ( clients seem to do mental maths adding up what they think you've invested to justify paying what they consider to be our overpriced services).
With the volume of sales what they are, I think we may be lucky to have anyone investing seriously in our tools of trade. It doesn't seem to be a growth market (but could be). If at the end of the day we have the choice of buying the premium product or a less expensive option that is a good thing. A bad thing will be if they pack up shop and we are stuck with cameras designed mainly for fast handheld work. If we pay $xx less for a DB that might have been the cost of an extra software engineer which the company could have had, etc.
David