Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: KenRexach on October 23, 2006, 12:20:25 pm
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Hi Im looking into Medium format digital in the near future and was considering the Hssselblad H3D or a Hasselblad H1/H2 and a Phase back.
But, I keep reading over and over horror stories about Hasselblad H lenses / bodies giving errors, falling appart, you name it.
I mean Im really concerned since I live/work on an island with No camera rental places and need my gear to be reliable.
I mean I have ony had one lens fail in 15 years and it was a nikon 20mm afd that wouldnt stop down at all. All 4 of the DSLRs ive had didnt fail. Not even a Fuji S2 I had that fell on concrete and a plastic piece seperated a bit, it still worked perfectly, the Canons have been great so far.
I make a living with my Gear. 100%
I havent read any reviews or comments about the H2D image quality / performance, seems not much people in these forums own them? So what can I expect of a H3D? Its really a huge investment to be worried about it crashing on me when I need it the most.
What do you guys reccomend. My work is for Advertising Campaigns and half of it is on location. I use PC's as mobile and server/file storage. I think 22mp should do since a lot of times 12-16mp does fine but for some things like automobiles I want a tad more but I do want/need better color depth. Also a high flash sync would be nice since 1/200 sync is sometimes marginal when using strobes outdoors.
Should I trust hasselblad with my money?
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You would be fine going PhaseOne digital backs and the new PXX+ series of backs look very promising. But since you are new to MFDB's I would try and wait to see where the new Rollei Hy6 goes. It may be a better option for you.
The only problem with Hassy is the new idea to be a closed system. I have H1's and they have not failed me yet, but I have my issues with them. I do like the old Rollei system and their lenses are great! But we have to see what the body and new lenses will do.
Best of luck with your purchase!
Richard
Hi Im looking into Medium format digital in the near future and was considering the Hssselblad H3D or a Hasselblad H1/H2 and a Phase back.
But, I keep reading over and over horror stories about Hasselblad H lenses / bodies giving errors, falling appart, you name it.
I mean Im really concerned since I live/work on an island with No camera rental places and need my gear to be reliable.
I mean I have ony had one lens fail in 15 years and it was a nikon 20mm afd that wouldnt stop down at all. All 4 of the DSLRs ive had didnt fail. Not even a Fuji S2 I had that fell on concrete and a plastic piece seperated a bit, it still worked perfectly, the Canons have been great so far.
I make a living with my Gear. 100%
I havent read any reviews or comments about the H2D image quality / performance, seems not much people in these forums own them? So what can I expect of a H3D? Its really a huge investment to be worried about it crashing on me when I need it the most.
What do you guys reccomend. My work is for Advertising Campaigns and half of it is on location. I use PC's as mobile and server/file storage. I think 22mp should do since a lot of times 12-16mp does fine but for some things like automobiles I want a tad more but I do want/need better color depth.
Should I trust hasselblad with my money?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81791\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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You would be fine going PhaseOne digital backs and the new PXX+ series of backs look very promising. But since you are new to MFDB's I would try and wait to see where the new Rollei Hy6 goes. It may be a better option for you.
The only problem with Hassy is the new idea to be a closed system. I have H1's and they have not failed me yet, but I have my issues with them. I do like the old Rollei system and their lenses are great! But we have to see what the body and new lenses will do.
Best of luck with your purchase!
Richard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81793\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Richard, with all due respect, not a single working sample of the Rollei system exists yet, the production tooling is not bought - what was shown at Photokina were mockups. Anyone who wants a system within the next 6 months needs to choose between what can be bought today.
Edmund
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Im definately interested in current systems.
I dont mind that the hasselblad is closed system if thats what im going to use. I dont own any MF or LF gear besides my Pentax 6x7's.
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I have every H lens except for the 100mm and I have had no problems with the lenses and they are of excellent quality. All my work is done outdoors, I hike and shoot in snow, rain, and other conditions (like 114F degrees in South Dakota this July) and they have not failed me since I purchased the system in November of 2005.
I understand the 50-110 lens should be handled delicately. I just picked one up so I cannot say anything about it yet.
I use an H2 and occasionly the system tells you to reattach the battery--I experience that when going through a temperature shift, like getting out of a warm car and shooting in the cold.
I can't speak for digital; I still shoot film and I too am worried about the durability of a digital back as it is in my future.
An upgraded H1 and an H2 are nearly identical, but I think the battery system in the H2 is better--just confirm this.
The system performs very well. I hope this helps. Good luck.
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To be fair to Hasselblad, I have only heard stories about the 50-110 zoom falling apart. All the other lenses seem fine, but I have heard stories from about ten 50-110 users and some of them are being ignored by Hasselblad.
Then there are problems with the body jamming up, but removing the battery and restarting seems to fix most or all of the issues. I have used an H1 but never owned one long term so I hope others can chime in.
I've decided to wait for the Hy6, which I expect to be more reliable and flexible from day one.
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At the moment the choice for *new* bodies is Hasselblad H2 (with Phase Leaf or Hasselblad back) , Mamiya 645 (Phase or Leaf) , and Hasselblad H3 with back. You don't like these, you might find it better to stick with whatever Canon bring out next.
Edmund
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I used an H1 with film for about a year and it was a fine camera. Lens quality was generally a bit better than the Contax 645 I used previously, as was battery life, flash synch, the viewfinder experience, and autofocus. It didn't look as pretty, top speeds were down, and (at the time) there was no waist level finder; but you can't have everything.
Eventually the time came to buy a digital back and the size of that investment really made me evaluate what was most important to me personally, because there wasn't a shift/tilt option within the H or Contax systems, and no equivilant to a distortion free 38mm Biogon, I went back to the Hasselblad V system with a Flexbody. But for handheld work and fantastic 120mm macro lenses I still miss both the Contax and the H1.
The perfect camera hasn't yet been made, so it's really about deciding what compromises you personally can live with and what comprises you can't. I don't think there's any really bad cameras anymore, just ones that suit you and your photography that little bit better than others.
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rollei 6008af bundle with P20 or emotion22 or 75....all lenses will work on the Hy6 as will 645 film and digital backs...the P20 bundle is about 10.000 including lens, back and body....
great camera, best ergonomics, 6x6 finder (emotion22 and 75 rotate), by far the most lenses available for any system....fastest flash sync available from any system (1/1000 with PQS lenses), X-act system for T/S....
either way i would wait for photoexpo, i think there will be more info on the Hy6, along with more concrete information about which backs it will take and how and how and if phase will also decide to make their own Hy6....there might also be bundles announced at that point that would give you a 6008 with a DMFback now to be replaced by a Hy6 body when it comes out....
the 6008 system is one of the most advanced and mature systems out there, has by far the most accessories and simply works...right now...drawbacks: no rental support (that i know of), no other drawbacks....if you shoot vertical and like to hold your camera vertical, this is the only system....the Hy6 will be an ADDITION to this system, not the other way around...
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With the exception of the 55-110 zoom (which a number of people have had touble with) I have found the H system to be extreemly ruggged and reliable. I've used my H1 and H2 in conditions that include sub-zero to desert heat, as well as in heavy rain, snow, and blowing sand, and never had an issue. Occasionally the camera needs to be rebooted, which simply involves removing the battery grip and reattaching it, which takes about 5 seconds.
As for back reliability, after two years of constant use of a Phase One P25 and P45 I can report that I've had more trouble over the years with MF film backs than with digital backs, and that includes a year with the Kodak DCS Pro Back before the first Phase purchase. Arctic to Africa, never a misstep.
I used the P45 in Antarctica last year and plan on bringing it (likely the new P45 Plus) and my H1 and H2 there again this coming February. It's a solid state device with no moving parts. Other than water damage or being dropped there's little that can go wrong. Some Phase MF backs have seen use in aerial cameras with hundreds of thousands of exposures, so there is no life span issue.
Leaf, Hassy and Sinar backs may prove to be as reliable, but I have no personal experience with them in extreeme conditions the way I do with Phase.
Michael
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Should I trust hasselblad with my money?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81791\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
if you shoot handheld low-light, available light, you might find the mirror-slap to be completely unacceptable. my friend says never shoot it handheld at less than 125th, unless you're into blur and artsy imagery. you might want to rent it first, and feel it lunge in your hand, when the shutter goes off. and the error messages wait to happen til the light is just right, and the sun is setting perfectly. and some people consider the leaf shutter approach to be good, but that means you can only shoot with their lenses. but that 800th of a second flash sync will come in handy to kill the mirror slap.
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I do like the old Rollei system and their lenses are great! But we have to see what the body and new lenses will do.
Best of luck with your purchase!
Richard
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FYI: the new Hy6, beside a new planed line of lenses, will accept also the "old" 6008 AF lenses.
Aon
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Im going to New York soon.
Where should I do to check out MF/DB gear (besides B&H)??
Would be cool to handle the gear and take a few images on CF card so I can take them with me and evaluate the images and my system's performance in processing them etc.
A low presure place would be nice where no commitment is necesary since I am evaluating the purchase of that type of gear.
I would need a loan etc back home. Im sure I could at least pay for the cost of the equip by renting it a few times a month locally besides my own income, incase I dont see an meincrease in business by having the MFDB over my Canons. My profoto lights make me a good $1000 a month in rentals. And I only rent to a few friends locally.
22mp is enough for my work and ideal since disk space wont be filled up as badly as with a 39mp back. BUT for rental its a bad idea since soon Canon will release a 20-22mp DSLR and even though a 22mp probaly will still be better, marketing wise 39MP has a LOT more Umff. really separates it from DSLRs. I mean, in photo business marketing has a lot to do with it. In rentals also. if it wasnt i could do with lesser gear.
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One thing thats very wrong about the new H3D is that you can't buy bodies alone, which means you won't be able to have a spare body for an important shoot.
this is utterly ridiculous, and needs to be fixed soon, but I guess its part of the closed marketing approach - if you can buy a body, Phase could reverse engineer their back for them...
and NO, the H3D's 39Mp back wont work on an H2D. so you cant use that.
what a mess.
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I have the Hassy H2 and Aptus 65 back. I had a bunch of error problems and issues. It turned out to be a bad circuit board in the back. Leaf fixed it in one day. Since then I have had not issues at all. I also have the 55-110 lens. It is my most used lens followed by the 120mm macro. I have taken the zoom with me hiking and no issues whatsoever at this point.
Compared to my canon DSLR, doing mirror lockup is simple.... just push a button. I do 80% of my shooting with mirror lockup on a tripod.
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Hi Ken,
Go the Fotocare in NY and talk to Jeff Hirsch. They are small, Pro-oriented, very knowledgeable, and very easy to talk to. I have spent hours in the back room testing equipment. I believe they also carry all the brands you would have interest in. Unless you get a specific referral, stay away from big stores like B&H or Adorama. If you do not get other referrals on this thread, then PM other Pro shooters here. Make sure there are several people at the store who have vast knowledge of the MFDB's and cameras, so you don't rely on one person being at work and not busy with another customer. It is better if the store has several competing brands in case the brand you buy initially doesn't work out for you. If the store also has a rental department, it means that you may have a second option for loaner backs if the manufacturer can not respond quickly enough.
Also, it is a two subway lines and a long walk, but Ninth Street Espresso makes the best espresso in New York.
-Eric
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jeff at fotocare is the place to go...the entire staff is very knowledgeable and they have everything right there....
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Post Deleted...Sorry.
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i and a number of people i persoanlly know are not fans of fotocare. i break out in hives whenever i think of that place. pro-oriented, they try. knowledgeable. . .er. . . .NOT.
as RicAgu once said on this forum:
"I would rather spend the rest of my career shooting with a Holga than to give a dollar to Calumet or Jeff Hirsch's Fotocare."
due to a number of bad experiences at fotocare, i understand how he feels. i wouldn't spend a plug nickle at that place. many friends and associates of mine agree with me. we steer clear.
pp
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HERE HERE!
On the digital end it is tough to find one place. Fotocare will sell only Leaf and maybe push at the Hassy, but I doubt it and they don't carry Phase. Plus, I don't like them. The only place in the city that carries Phase is Digital Transitions. They are not bad guys, but can get a little pushy in my experience and only carry Phase.
What happened to the good old days of Ken Hansen? Knowledgeable, every piece of equipment you could want and more with no pressure. Sit there and BS to your hearts content. It would be good for a place like that to get into the game. Don't waste your time at B&H. Unless you are going to buy it and want the rock bottom price with no service and support, that is the only reason to go to B&H. DPI has been grerat to me in the past but I have not used them in years and I ma not sure they carry them all. I know they do carry Sinarbacks, but that is all I know.
I had a great talk with Hassy the other day with a few of their big supporters in the room like Vincent Dixon. Great Guy and east to talk to. He has been shooting Imacon for a few years now.
I still have no problem with Phase and really liike the idea of the P45+ and P30+ on a Rollei. I am going to demo the new Hassy stuff in about a week or two with a Fur editorial I will be doing (NO PETA CRAP PLEASE, THIS IS HOW WE KEPT OURSELVES WARM FOR 1000'S OF YEARS). I doubt we had Cromo PETA man. I LOVE animals, but also see them as a source if need be. My Phase will be a cart away though incase something should happen.
Best of Luck with your choice and selction. If you would like to come by my studio and try the Aptus 75 and P25 PM me.
Best,
Ric
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I definately agree with not going to B+H to try something. They are great to buy from if you know exactly what you want, but you won't be able to spend quality time with a product there, especially if they are busy.
Here's a crazy thought: IF you have a car here in NYC, drive out to Hasselblad in NJ, mid-day wo/traffic probably 30-40 mintes from the city (I work here and I've done the drive when I got my lenses upgraded). BUT, I would first call over there and ask if you can check out the camera, find out what working backs they have, tell them you want to fire off some test shots you can take with you, etc...
Good luck.
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i and a number of people i persoanlly know are not fans of fotocare. i break out in hives whenever i think of that place. pro-oriented, they try. knowledgeable. . .er. . . .NOT.
as RicAgu once said on this forum:
"I would rather spend the rest of my career shooting with a Holga than to give a dollar to Calumet or Jeff Hirsch's Fotocare."
due to a number of bad experiences at fotocare, i understand how he feels. i wouldn't spend a plug nickle at that place. many friends and associates of mine agree with me. we steer clear.
pp
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82303\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi PixPop,
Who do you recommend in NYC? Is there really only one place in NYC that sells Phase? Living in LA I had these grand notions of Phase/Leaf dealers on every corner of the city.
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Hi PixPop,
Who do you recommend in NYC? Is there really only one place in NYC that sells Phase? Living in LA I had these grand notions of Phase/Leaf dealers on every corner of the city.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82315\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
hi eric, to tell the truth, i don't make a habit of recommending dealers and i almost never make negative statements about dealers in public forums. i made an exception in this case because i thought the people (and manufacturers) on this forum deserve to know that some of us have had very bad experiences with jeff hirsch's fotocare and we therefore (sometimes out of necessity) go out of our way to purchase elsewhere. basically, i like to purchase as much as i could online. manufacturers such as leaf and phase should take notice that they would do well to sign up other dealers in the nyc area maybe not on every corner but at least one or two others. btw i did purchase my phase from digital transitions in nyc and i am planning to purchase my next phase from them. so far, i haven't had any bad experiences with them and i for one don't find them pushy. if they ever do turn sour, i will have no problem purchasing my phase elsewhere.
pp
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ATTENTION!
Save your self’s from any indications & favoritisms with regards to any Camera/Lenses/DB/Software and solely decide by your own choice.
Regards
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Hi again:
Thanks for the replies.
I have been searching for more info and comments online and I have made a few choices:
Back:
I am between the phase one P21+ and the P30+, the 21 seems like a great deal at $12k. (the 30 is 5k more)
Camera/Lenses:
Hasselblad H1 with 35mm, 50-110mm and 120mm macro lenses.
I have been using the Phase RAW software for my canons for a few years and have had good results with it. I also need PC compatible gear.
Dont know if buying the H1 as a kit with the 80mm lens and film back is worth the extra expense.
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Dont know if buying the H1 as a kit with the 80mm lens and film back is worth the extra expense.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82438\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
ken...i have been shooting digital for years...the one thing you always want to have is a film back..just in case...i have used mine once, because the client wanted film...but if the back fails somewhere...i can always just slap the film back on....
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I started with the same setup 35mm, 50-110 and 120mm macro. I have since added the 210mm but that is the least used lens for me. I elected not to buy the 80mm and film back kit and do not regret it. mark
Hi again:
Thanks for the replies.
I have been searching for more info and comments online and I have made a few choices:
Back:
I am between the phase one P21+ and the P30+, the 21 seems like a great deal at $12k. (the 30 is 5k more)
Camera/Lenses:
Hasselblad H1 with 35mm, 50-110mm and 120mm macro lenses.
I have been using the Phase RAW software for my canons for a few years and have had good results with it. I also need PC compatible gear.
Dont know if buying the H1 as a kit with the 80mm lens and film back is worth the extra expense.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82438\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I know it is dangerous to comment on seeing jpgs on a web site, but what I miss in many of the images I see from the H Hasselblad is the 3-d effect that people comment on with the contax 645. Images I have shown with 175kB files have elicited "wow what a 3-d look" from my contax645, even the old Kodak back, but certailny with the P25.
I cannot say I see that "3-d" in any of the H images, even those Michael shows here on the site (they frankly look flat to me). Of course it is extremely difficult to see with such compression, but I do miss the old contax images. Sorry Michael!
I could have switched many times, but this is one aspect of the Zeiss (design) glass that comes thru, even with the V series lenses I use.
Maybe the Rollei will bring back some of that 'zing', I do not see it in the current crop of MF images except for those with Schneider/Rodenstock, and in some of the older Hasselblad (180mm comes to mind) V lenses, and some of the contax (including the much maligned 80mm).
I am keeping my Conrtax, actually more for the older V hasselblad look than for the contax, although the latter have garnered the "3-d" comments also.
So are the newer Hasselblad bad? Certainly not. what may have stimulated the question was the lack of enthusiasm for the rather flat look that I see. Reminiscent of _____, well Iwon't say!
Victor