Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: marc gerritsen on October 21, 2006, 10:03:58 pm
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I can understand that some of you get inconvenienced by the new hasselblad route.
I am getting a bit sick and tired though of the uninformed bashing by phase and leaf chauvinism.
Before I bought my H2D39, I tested the market looked closely at files of imacon leaf and phase
and could not find any major superiority in any of these. Yes leaf was slightly better in noise. Phase might have been slightly better in speed. But overall all this was played out in the last 5%
So all these backs deliver great files with minor differences.
The big difference for me though was getting a closed system. In the same way that I would also not have liked to buy my Nikon D2X body and then have to shop around for a sensor and lenses, all from different manufacturers. And when it would come to malfuction, not to get the runaround between the different brands. Camera people say it's your back, back people saying it's your lens,
lens peoplle saying it your camera.
Also I got a great deal by buying this system, I basically got a free camera, a free lens, free extra battery, free uv filters for 2 lenses and a free release cord.
If you are interested to see files of the H2D39 which I am sure would be identical to the H3D39 (can't wait to upgrade!) please let me know and I will show you what I mean.
I have come to buy my camera partly with the help of this forum, as you can read in my previous posts, and I hardly heard a beeb form the leaf and phase corner regarding imacon backs. Now that things have changed, imacon files get the brunt of it.
So call this Hasselblad/Imacon chauvinism, you are right, I have got a reason for it!
Marc
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I agree there are some big advantages to an integrated system.
I'll be delighted to take up your offer and look at some H2D39 files. Pix of model-age females preferred, send to edmundronald at gmail dot com via http://www.yousendit.com (http://www.yousendit.com)
Thank you.
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will send jpg since 117mb tiff file is too large to send with you-send-it
cheers Marc
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will send jpg since 117mb tiff file is too large to send with you-send-it
cheers Marc
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81574\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No please, Marc, what I need is Raw files - nothing else is of use to me.
Edmund
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ok they are small enough
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ok they are small enough
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81576\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thank you Marc !
Edmund
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Marc,
grateful if I too can have a RAW from that Hassie. I'm shopping for a MFDB system right now.
please route it for henry.h.c.goh(at)gmail(dot)com when you mail it to you-send-it
Thanks a bunch.
Henry
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Hi Henry
I mostly shoot architecture and interior and have limited files of models
what do you prefer?
Marc
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Hi Henry
I mostly shoot architecture and interior and have limited files of models
what do you prefer?
Marc
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81586\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hello Marc,
Either models or interior shots will do just fine. I shoot both like you do.
Thanks again.
Henry
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Hi Henry
it should be availabe in 35 min
Marc
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Hi Marc,
The best way to counter the ongoing criticism of Hasselblad is for some users to post or make available some high quality images from the H39 backs. There have been plenty of excellent images made available from Leaf and Phase users but very, very few from the H39 backs.
I would be pleased to get one of your architectural images, preferrably in DNG file format so I can use CS2 to open it. If you can make it under 100MB, please email to me using www.yousendit.com. Enter my email as: steve (at) lightmechanics (dot) com. My application would be landscape photography so an exterior architectural image would be most useful for evaluation. If you have to size it down please just crop the image on one side only and not resample.
Thank you in advance for the offer to make images available! It will help a lot to hear and see more from satisfied Hasselblad users. I tried to join the yahoo flexframe group to get more info on the CF39 back but that group is closed to non-registered Hassy-con back owners. I prefer to get as much information as possible on these MFDBs before I take up the time of the dealers requesting hands on demos.
And BTW, thanks a bucket load to Michael for this excellent (and open) forum. Have been lurking here (and before at RG) learning a lot about MFDB.
Steve
Tucson
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Hi Steve
I totally agree with your thank you to Michael
As for as Dng files concerned I find them of slightly lesser quality then when processed through flexcolor, but for some reason the dng files have more dynamic range when processed through bridge.
I will send you an architectural/landscape shot as soon as I have uploaded the file for Henry
cheers
marc
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Hi Steve
I totally agree with your thank you to Michael
As for as Dng files concerned I find them of slightly lesser quality then when processed through flexcolor, but for some reason the dng files have more dynamic range when processed through bridge.
I will send you an architectural/landscape shot as soon as I have uploaded the file for Henry
cheers
marc
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81596\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Marc,
If you can send me the download links for those files ? I'm still interested in seeing them. You just need to upload once to yousendit.com and then you can send a number of people the links.
Edmund
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Marc, I'd also be interested to see the model image(s). If not too late, please add me: mail (at) graham-mitchell.com
Thanks.
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Hi Henry
it should be availabe in 35 min
Marc
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81594\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks Marc, got it.
Henry
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I have a feeling that when america wakes up I might get a few more requests so download to your hearts content
fff file
http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?acti...35520D309C584C0 (http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=435520D309C584C0)
dng file
http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?acti...BF8246702282AE6 (http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=6BF8246702282AE6)
marc
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Thanks Marc for the file.
Show the slightest interest in a Phase back and the sales guys are right there, helpful comments, demonstration in my own studio, technical feedback with any issue, very impressed.
Apply the same comments to Leaf and I couldn't speak more highly of that company either. Calumet UK have been to my studio and provided an extremely comprehensive demo of the Leaf backs.
All of this gives you confidence to purchase either of these products. I clicked on the Hasselblad site for an H3D demo twice and I have received nothing. Not a good start but I will keep trying to get a demo.
Regards Steve
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Thanks for posting these files Marc.
It would be great if other Hasselblad DB users would post other images including some studio shots for comparison.
Using www.yousendit.com seems to work quite well for this purpose.
Steve
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Same here...Phase and Leaf reps came by within a couple of days...and called right back (actually I had to call the reps from Phase again...and when I met with him I understood why...he is an arrogant prick!!)
The rep from Leaf called right back and was the most helpfull....understood my needs and provided me with answers...didn't try to force me to change my workflow and provided me with a loaner until I got my own back!!
I emailed Hasselblad..never heard back from them....I can't find any real test information and the owner of Liminous (the site where this forum is from) didn't get a Hassy to test with, while both Leaf and Phase gave him a back to test....
Leaf and Phase are both great backs...I went for the Leaf, because of the film like feel and because I didn't like the Phase rep...arrogant a-hol!!!
Hasselblad seems to be for the amateur photographer with a lot of money in his pocket...or for a doctor who want to show of that he charges his patients $500 an hour....
Ofcourse the h39d is a professional camera, but supposed to have a couple of not so professional hangups.....I have read in the few reviews available....can you enligthen us more about the camera Marc??? Because it is a great deal for so much camera!!
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It is true, it is how we as photographer like the sells person and how helpful they are, it does not matter what they are selling.
When I was going to upgrade to the newer back, I really want the Aptus 75, but nobody made me any offers. I had the P25 as that time, the P25 dealer is no longer selling Phase One backs. The local Phase One dealer told me that I must of be seeing things, the P25 doses not have color cast, srew him. I got my upgrade to a P45 from a New York dealer, because they are the most helpful and help me with the color cast on my P25, they know about the color cast and up front about it. I am in CA.
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Here is my experience with both Leaf and Hasselblad:
About two months ago I was ready to buy into either make. I was currently using two Imacon 4040s.
I called the rep from Hass in the UK and at the same time I called one of the reps for Leaf.
Both reps came to the studio within a week knowing that I had called their ribal and may the best system win.
The Leaf guy came first, there were some problems with the software or connection or both. The lens on a Rollei ControlS wouldn't stop down through the software, it had to be done manually, then half way through the demo it started to work. No-one knew why. The file was very good, but I was left thinking that the system wasn't reliable enough, so I waited for the Hass demo.
The Hasselblad demo was the biggest disaster I've ever experienced. I felt sorry for the rep, he is a nice guy, very helpful and so on, but the camera, which he had just opened brand new from the box, didn't fire properly, the 4-shots weren't implemented yet, the Life picture wasn't implemented, everything was embarrassingly not working at all. Tell you what, much as I like the rep, I was angry that Hasselblad would allow their cameras go on demos with the knowledge that they are not ready for customer consumption.
I wasted a day, I got really impatient and Hasselblad, (I had been using two Imacons 4040 for three years, which I really liked, as I like the Flexcolor software) was suddenly out of favour, they lost my faith and my custom. If they had told me, sorry, but the camera is not ready yet, so we can't demo it, fine, I would've understood, but how can anyone buy such expensive item on the premise that it will work one day, sure it will!
So, although my natural impulse was to go Hasselblad (the Imacon 4040 was at the time, and even now, quite difficult to beat in 4-shot mode), I had to see if the Leaf guy had updated the latest firmware which he assured me was the cause of the initial erratic behaviour.
So the Leaf rep came for a second demo. This time everything worked, the camera fired, the aperture stopped down from within the software, the files were great, the image was on the screen quickly enough and so on.
I went for Leaf, and I bought two Aptus 65 actually, which are incredibly good value, as the chip is only a couple of milimetres smaller than the A75, and I always crop anyway.
I still have some nostalgia for Hasselblad, but it's only by default, as I find the Leaf software completely behind times, it does the job, though (V8). I wish the Leaf software were as practical as Flexcolor (though Flexcolor updates have removed its simplicity much to its detriment, I think)
I am willing to give Leaf the benefit of the doubt and see if they come up with the promised software update (10.1). So far I am a bit disappointed that they have announced a delay (we were expecting something by Photokina) but my patience is not exhausted yet.
I have no loyalty to any make, they are all far from perfect, I feel that us photographers are being short changed, but we have no alternative but to chose from the small choice and make the best we can out of it.
Edward
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I have no loyalty to any make, they are all far from perfect, I feel that us photographers are being short changed, but we have no alternative but to chose from the small choice and make the best we can out of it.
Edward
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all three companies get failing grades in overall communication to their customers, in my opinion. look at how badly hasselblad/imacon/fuji have handled this mess since photokina -- everyone is confused, wondering what will be made, what will fit the older cameras, and no one from hasselcon will step forward to issue some kind of FAQ to clear up the murkiness. i'm sure it has already cost them dearly, since photokina. no one like murkiness, when thirty to fifty grand, plus your business reputation, is on the table. and phase and leaf are no better, with continued delayed software and hardware issues, and no one stepping forward to be a clear public spokesperson for the companies. the only winner here is canon, as a result of all this jive.
i am surprised that no magazine, or website, or even reichmann has not gone out and rented an H1, and rented all three leading digital 39mp backs, and done a side-by-side test. no asking for favors -- just go out and rent the stuff and write a review. test it on skin-tone, and full-bodies, on texture, or even on rocks-and-roots, and then also process 200 or 300 files to also see how the associated software stands up to the test. the backs are important but if the software is a mess, then buyer should know that as well. maybe even set a time limit and see if JPGs can be produced for a fictious client, and 16bit files batched from 300 files. i guess a magazine won't do it, because they jeopardize potential advertising dollars from the two losers. so that leaves either private individuals, or some group like an apa or asmp, to get together on their own, and see the results. to my knowledge, no one has tested all three, side by side, shot with the exact same camera body and exact same lens.
smoke and mirrors? yes, i'd say so. yet it would appear by the number of photographers sitting on the sidelines, waiting for some real answers to some of these pressing questions, instead of hype and conjecture, the only losers are the three medium-format companies. you would think that they'd see that, but as we all know, they don't have a great track record in being very perceptive to photographer's needs.
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i am surprised that no magazine, or website, or even reichmann has not gone out and rented an H1, and rented all three leading digital 39mp backs, and done a side-by-side test. no asking for favors
I'd love to do that but there are no rental backs in this country. I would have to catch a ferry over to Helsinki where the backs cost $750 each, per day, and that's assuming I can find 3 different backs for the same mount. Basically a $2500 day. Ouch.
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PhaqueMe,
There are few pro reviewers who wish to waste their time on a product with so few potential buyers.
That is the obvious explanation because otherwise some magazine would already have gone to a rental shop, forked out a couple of days rental fees and done the job.
And the back makers are not encouraging reviews. Really not or else Michael would be drowning in review backs.
Another problem is that in fact the backs only show their true strength and weaknesses after you have invested a couple of months work in them.
Edmund
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Thanks Mark,
Great shot and nice house!
I had a good look. I have an Imacon 132c on a V system. I am always curious as to how the next level is.
Its funny, I didn't want to buy the H1 or 2 D cameras despite the free camera and lens ( and in this market priced nz$10,000 below the 132c back as well ) as I didn't want to get hooked in to a "closed" system and wanted the opportunity to mount the back on a view camera or other system if I needed to . I'm not sure if I worried too much about this.
I was about to buy the H2D when a lightly used second hand back came up at almost half the price of the H2D option. Reeling from having to make a recent change from Nikon to Canon , I took the opportunity ( and it meant I could resurrect my Hasselblad gear ) Great decision as it works very well for me indeed.
I'm very happy with the Imacon although it did take a while to learn the software properly and I still have a little bit of work to do with the shim kit to get the focus zeroed in completely ( I found without it at a range of fifteen feet it focussed about four feet behind the intended target , I have that down to about six inches or less now). It vastly improved the sharpness of the CF 40mm I have. I was always able to check shrpness in the computer inthe meantime and have been a bit lazy sorting it out. i wonder if that alone doesn't prejudice some against Imacon.
I can see how Hasselcon might get a reputation as the documentation of all this is poor to non existent and the Flexframe group is essential if you own one.
When I made enquiries , I got the info pack in the mail direct from Europe, and attended one of the seminar's run here by Hasselblad for a bit of hands on. I have to confess to not being so serious at the time and not being so impressed by some of the samples I saw bu tyou really do need some time with a back in your own familiar conditions.
One thing about your shot is I'm not impressed by the 35mm lens, possibly 39mp's are too much for it, or maybe at f19 the diffraction distortion is starting to affect the potential of the back. I guess it is resolving twice my 132 though , so its not an entirely reasonable observation.
Perhaps a closed system will eventually mean issues like that are able to be resolved through software.
Even at 22mp I find I don't get the potential resolution of of the lenses unless the mirror is locked up and the camera is tripoded or studio flash used, and the depth of focus is tiny ( even at f16!)as there is no grain to hide the unsharp bits and wonder if that is behind the current and probably future size of MF Chips and why the move to a "Full - Frame" camera by hasselblad.
I have a feeling that when america wakes up I might get a few more requests so download to your hearts content
fff file
http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?acti...35520D309C584C0 (http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=435520D309C584C0)
dng file
http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?acti...BF8246702282AE6 (http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=6BF8246702282AE6)
marc
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I send a file to Hasselblad that they have put through the new software and it came back
abolutely dead straight. So, yes a closed system including good software is a good option, especially if they finally (nudge nudge wink wink) would release the new software. Without the software I am relegated to antiquated photoshop procedures.
cheers
Marc