Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: RicAgu on October 18, 2006, 12:16:32 pm
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Well it saddens me to have to write this. But this is first hand experience. I have no loyalty to any brand or camera other than the one that will work as trouble free as possible. I have sung the praises of them all Rollei, Hasselblad, Pentax and Mamiya. All have their place and work well. Just depends on what you need. I have had a very close relationship with Mamiya and they have been great to me.
I have owned an H1 for a little over a year and it has worked great. I added a P25 a little less than a year ago and have loved it. Wish it would work better past 200, but all in time. I decided to purchase an Aptus 75 because of my test run with it and the great files at 400 and 800.
I am actually on Location in Miami and decided to bypass lunch to write this. My Aptus 75 just died. No power tethered, no power from battery, nothing! DEAD!
I call Leaf and Rick tells me to send it in and he will have it back to me by Friday. That is fine and dandy if I wasn't on set in the middle of a shot. Luckily I brought my Canon's. I am not in some third tier market. I am in South Florida! He cannot get me one overnight and told me to call my dealer. I don't have a dealer and bought it on eBay new with the clearence from the local rep that I would have full support from Leaf. Rick tells me to call my local rep but that they have no extra's laying around waiting to ship. Because they are all on back order and when they come in, they are spoken for. I then ask who he thinks in NYC has some in house for rental? He says "every one does". I shoot at and/or rent from Shoot Digital, K&M and Drive In and none of them have more than one Leaf back in stock. They have double digit Phase backs but not more than one maybe two Leaf backs in stock. I cannot believe this is the kind of support you get with a $30k investment!
I had a similar incident with Phase. I called Phase at 3pm and I had a temp back at 8:30am the next day. Full support no questions asked. They took a while to fix it because they had to send it back to Europe. But I had a loaner till it was done.
It is amazing that Phase is coming out with the P+ backs and their annoucement that they will be opening their files to DNG support. The rest of the back will have a Niche market for the ones who want to deal with the problems. I normally travel with my P25 and decided to leave it behind as I would need to travel with double batteries and chargers.
So my piece of advice. SERIOUSLY look at your support because it's not like you can have an extra $2,000.00 body in the bag if it fails. You have to carry an extra $30,000.00 back. These are digital and electronic devices and do not sit on a shelf. They get used and some what abused and will fail, not if but when. I know I can be in Africa and Phase will get one to me as soon as shipping can get it there. The software is bullet proof and I look forward to DNG support. This Aptus 75 will be repaired and then sold ASAP. I will continue to use my P25 and then upgrade to a P45+ and P30+ as a back up. Hopefully on Rollei Hy6 late next year.
There is a reason why every rental house in the world uses Phase One almost exclusively and some of the busiest shooters are on Phase. We'll see what Hasselblad does with their closed system. But I put my money on Phase to continue to be the first with new amazing announcements.
Best of Luck to all of you with your MFDB research and choices. Just an honest experience from a never busy enough shooter.
Ric
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Who is your dealer.
When I had a problem Steve Hendrix with PPR had a replacement to me the next morning by FedEx.
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I'd really like to hear Mr. Rick Adshead's side of the story, if you please.
That you got it off ebay may have something to do with it. What is Leaf America's policy of supporting the owners of second-hand backs? Perhaps its overnight loaner service is open only to the first owner of the back who bought it directly from a bona fide dealer.
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Ric, sorry to hear bout this. Fotocare and Trec are two other places that come to mind as far as NYC rental houses, but you are right, A75's are in short supply.
Best of luck,
Eric
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can't speak to Leaf, but I have shoot this weekend and set up for the P25 to P45 upgrade. That was concluded yesterday with a fax at 5pn
Today i was to send my P25 back overight and hope to get the P45 by Fri, saturday latest
Instead, Phase One sent the P45 TODAY for tomorrow thursday delivery so that I can fully test before the wedding.
then they said send the P25 when all is OK
Seems they really understand.
Victor
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I have been renting both Leaf and Phase backs for a while now. I am a fashion shooter and have decided to push ahead with the purchase of a MFDB. I held off pending the outcome of the centerfold issue.
I have shot a number of gigs with each back. I really love the look of the Leaf file, to my eye and the eye of the CD's I work with it is superior to the sterility of the Phase.
I am sorry to hear of your recent experience but I am sure that this is not typical of Leaf. A close friend of mine was on a gig, his back was damaged when a tech accidentally tripped over a tether and sent the camera and back flying onto the hard concrete floor. This was in NYC, a replacement back was pciked up at Leaf and the shoot resumed the next morning.
My suggestion, contact your dealer, he is your first line of denfense or offense when something like this happens, he also may have a demo back to loan you in a pinch.
Bill
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Ric,
I'm assuming you know this but DPI and Carousel both rent digital backs.
http://www.dpi-digitalphoto.com/ (http://www.dpi-digitalphoto.com/)
http://www.carouselstudios.com/ (http://www.carouselstudios.com/)
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I had a problem with my back.. I sent it to Leaf two day air,. it arrived on WEd am in NJ (I am in CA), and it was back in my office Thursday AM. No problem now.
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This sounds a little strange? Aptus 75 on clearence? Have you talked to the local rep you bought it from on Ebay? This just sounds odd to me. I know the local dealer I bought my back from would lend me another Aptus 75 or Aptus 22 if the 75 was not in its rental department.
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I went for the Leaf, because m leaf rep...Bill (socal) provided me with a loaner for any shoots I had until my own back is going to be delivered...I can only imagine what would happen if I call him with the message that my new back is down!! He will drive right over and loan me his again!!
But you are right service support is everything with a digital back......the Phase backs were to digital to me!!
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I went for the Leaf, because m leaf rep...Bill (socal) provided me with a loaner for any shoots I had until my own back is going to be delivered...I can only imagine what would happen if I call him with the message that my new back is down!! He will drive right over and loan me his again!!
But you are right service support is everything with a digital back......the Phase backs were to digital to me!!
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=81116\")
Though I bought my original Valeo, then A-22 though a large dealer in Southern California, I've never really worked with a dealer, but instead all of my tech support came from LOA, which I have found to be more than good. I had an issue with the A-22 with it overheating in Jamaica and when I returned to the states LOA replaced it in a day.
Still, since we had backup cameras, (video and still) and backup lights we got the gig shot which is the goal.
Like Many, I used the Canon's for backup and though long and hard about this and recently bought an A-65 to go with the A-22. I thought it would give me a higher iso alternative, allow me the same workflow and most importantly allow me to carry and ship one camera case vs. 2.
I don't think the Leaf is any less or more prone to issues than any digital camera, or back, but as we know anything can break and and these devices are complicated, hence I went with second back.
On the Jamaica shoot every piece of electric equipment had issues from the strobes to the video cameras, as it was 100% humidity at 105f, so it's hard for me to say this is a leaf issue rather than just a weather issue.
Also I use the contax so just calling a dealer and the chance of them having an Aptus with a Contax mount is usually a rarity rather than the rule.
JR
[a href=\"http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/]http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/[/url]
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Hi James
Now that you have got an Aptus 65, it would be nice to hear your experience
with that back. Image quality and handling
I have had a couple of Phase One backs some years ago, but
switched to Canon !Ds Mk II.
And then from that to 5D.
I like the 5D better than the 1Ds Mk II, but are now looking for
a back again.
This weekend I will test a P30 and are planning on testing an Aptus 65 also.
The RAW pictures from A65 on Leaf Photography site, that you can download,
are IMO very bad.
I am surprised that Leaf allow these kind of pictures to represent their back.
Willow
willow.no (http://www.willow.no)
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The RAW pictures from A65 on Leaf Photography site, that you can download,
are IMO very bad.
I am surprised that Leaf allow these kind of pictures to represent their back.
Willow
willow.no (http://www.willow.no)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81150\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Willow
I agree - so far I have got some very good dealer-supplied fashion images from the P30, with very good skin tone, but the images on the Leaf site are not really usable to evaluate the back. I shot some images at a Leaf demo, but the girl had bad makeup and the images looked like she had a disease - maybe not the back's fault.
.How about I send you the P30 images, and you send me whatever you get from the Aptus - could we do that ?
Edmund
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Hi Edmund
That sounds OK.
How are we going to send these RAW files?
Willow
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Hi Edmund
That sounds OK.
How are we going to send these RAW files?
Willow
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=81154\")
Yes, Raw files only.
There's this thing [a href=\"http://www.yousendit.com]http://www.yousendit.com[/url]
pm me your email adress please.
Edmund
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Keeble & Shuchat in California rent Leaf.
http://www.kspphoto.com (http://www.kspphoto.com)
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As a known Contax /Phase user, I hesitate to show these, but it seemed instructive. I have been a great fan of the P25 and really never pushed to 100%, and always stay at 50-100 ISO.
However, I just tested the P45 vs p25 (I need to send it back, but thought I would check WB exposure etc with same camera and lens - here, strangely the 35mm)
What struck me is that there seems to be much more than 20% linear improvement, likely due to the fact that images are , after all, 2-d. But as some have commented that have the P45, it is a bigger jump from the SLRs than the P25. Here that is obvious. Also, noise was a real surprise (this was outside bright sun on a white object with sharp shadows. The p45 show real promise that the 45+ will handle 800, which I had doubted.
And I know, hardly scientific, the P25 is about 1/2 stop overexposed (but the P45 shot blew the highlights on the right as well)
Have others seen this? or was this just a peculiar situation? I keep my fingers crossed that this improvement carries through. Michael seems to have thought so, but then my middle name is 'doubt' :-)
One more thing. I certainly don't see the lens as a limit here, though it is a little soft at the edges even stopped down. I'm sure the Schneider or Rodenstack would have more detail, but this seems pretty good.
BTW I know it is a minor point, but the new Phase backs with the Value added(basically the extended warranty) also come with a fantastic case, aluminum, configurable not only for the back, butalso for the camera and a couple of lenses. A great bonus, esp with air travel being such a burden now. (can ship ahead, carry on etc.)
regards
Victor
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Victor,
How is the Contax powered ? Any rechargeables ? How long do the batteries last ?
How good is the AF in low light ?
Edmund
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Victor,
How is the Contax powered ? Any rechargeables ? How long do the batteries last ?
How good is the AF in low light ?
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81419\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The Contax uses 2CR5 batteries, i never looked at rechargeables. In my use I get at least 500-600 shots. Less if you use a lot of AF hunting. (I use AF maybe 70%, even though I often over ride, which is easy to do for select focus)
The issue with battery drain that people mention (as few as 200-300 shots ) was likely due to the winder drain-a non issue with a back!
The AF? let's see, I think the technical term is 'sucks' in low light
But it needs to be pretty dark
Also, I use flash (380) and it is really good for both fill and low light. Powerful enough you can stop down to get better DOF, then focus not so critical. Used at NY wedding last year no problem with lights lower for dancing (and once in a tent!)
But it ain't nuthin' to write home about. Itis why we all looked for a MARK II for the Contax.
When I kow its going to be dark and I must use ambient light I use the Leica.
Hope it helps.
BTW here's an out-take, soft flash using AF (you can lower ambient behind, low, not dark) sort of got it.. (color wrong due to $%$#$% sRGB conversion in PS
Regards
Victor
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BTW here you can see the classic problem not having a spot focus option!
this 100% crop of th P25 image
BTW right out of C1 with only 35% (or whatever that number is !) sharpening. nothing else
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BTW here you can see the classic problem not having a spot focus option!
this 100% crop of th P25 image
BTW right out of C1 with only 35% (or whatever that number is !) sharpening. nothing else
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81431\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks Victor -
Edmund
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I just got my Contax 645/P30 setup up and running and used it for the first time on a (paid) shoot a couple of days ago. I could have shot it with my Canon, but what the heck, the P30 and all the Contax gear arrived in time for the shoot, I had my assistant shooting the 5D for backup, and I like to live dangerously. :-)
Just to add to Victor's thoughts: the AF on the Cntax is nowhere near as fast as a DSLR, but it doesn't suck as much as I remembered from when I owned a Contax 645 before. It actually hunted very little, and this was at nightime in a studio where the only light was from the strobes' modeling lights (250W).
I also noticed that the 2CR5 battery lasted longer than I'd remembered; probably, as Victor mentioned, because it's no longer winding film.
All in all, I'm very very happy with this setup. I'll write up my findings at more length soon, but suffice it to say that the P30 worked very smoothly (even including the 2 times I stepped on the FW cord and yanked it out of the camera), and the file quality is excellent. Who knows how the the Aptus would have compared, but, objectively, the P30 is superb IMO.
Oh, and as Victor said, the hard case it all ships in is quite nice, which is a nice bonus.
BTW, here's a quick (retouched) JPEG from the shoot.
The Contax uses 2CR5 batteries, i never looked at rechargeables. In my use I get at least 500-600 shots. Less if you use a lot of AF hunting. (I use AF maybe 70%, even though I often over ride, which is easy to do for select focus)
The issue with battery drain that people mention (as few as 200-300 shots ) was likely due to the winder drain-a non issue with a back!
The AF? let's see, I think the technical term is 'sucks' in low light
But it needs to be pretty dark
Also, I use flash (380) and it is really good for both fill and low light. Powerful enough you can stop down to get better DOF, then focus not so critical. Used at NY wedding last year no problem with lights lower for dancing (and once in a tent!)
But it ain't nuthin' to write home about. Itis why we all looked for a MARK II for the Contax.
When I kow its going to be dark and I must use ambient light I use the Leica.
Hope it helps.
BTW here's an out-take, soft flash using AF (you can lower ambient behind, low, not dark) sort of got it.. (color wrong due to $%$#$% sRGB conversion in PS
Regards
Victor
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81428\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Dear William
very nice shot!. Skin tone is really nice. It reallyputs to bed the 'sterile' idea of Phase backs.
On theContax, I did take some license - not fair to ask AF to read your mind
I should have checked (given that I wanted the bride in focus) but these are fast situations and I just got laze
edmund, dont read as negative on Contax!
also if you notice even with an old P25 with 1/60 flash you get pretty sharp shots!
(of course, Iam not into count skin pores.)
Overall I like the system too (and many just forget how easy it is to manually adjust focus. At half shutter, just MOVE IT! it stay and will nail the shot for you.
Wiliam, enjoy enjoy
Victor
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BTW here you can see the classic problem not having a spot focus option!
this 100% crop of th P25 image
BTW right out of C1 with only 35% (or whatever that number is !) sharpening. nothing else
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81431\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Your sample images is exactly why I did not go for Phase....it is way tooo sharp for my....look a the guys skin!! Colors are nice.....but I love the film like feel that leaf backs give me!!
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Your sample images is exactly why I did not go for Phase....it is way tooo sharp for my....look a the guys skin!! Colors are nice.....but I love the film like feel that leaf backs give me!!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81455\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
definitively over-sharpened skin, typical to Phase. Same reason why I did not go for it, but instead Sinarback
Aon
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I call Leaf and Rick tells me to send it in and he will have it back to me by Friday. That is fine and dandy if I wasn't on set in the middle of a shot. Luckily I brought my Canon's. I am not in some third tier market. I am in South Florida! He cannot get me one overnight and told me to call my dealer. I don't have a dealer and bought it on eBay new with the clearence from the local rep that I would have full support from Leaf. I cannot believe this is the kind of support you get with a $30k investment!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81009\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I don't mean to beat someone when they are down, but it you paid $30,000 then you paid list price, and if you paid list price why would you go to ebay instead of a real dealer? I've had a couple of times that I've needed help with my Aptus and Steve Hendrix and Rick have really helped me out. I know that I feel great knowing that there is a team of people willing to help me when I need it.
I just don't understand why you went to ebay.
Finally, the support I have gotten from these guys has gone way beyond whatever they were contractually required to do to help me. I can't say enough about how important it is to deal with a reputable dealer when you're buying high cost, bleeding edge technology like this.
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Your sample images is exactly why I did not go for Phase....it is way tooo sharp for my....look a the guys skin!! Colors are nice.....but I love the film like feel that leaf backs give me!!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81455\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I've been playing with sample files this week - add 1.5 or 2% gaussian monochromatic noise to a Phase file and Bingo ! film look.
Edmund
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I think you guys are missing something important here -- he said he's applying sharepning in C1. If you're judging whether skin tone are "too" sharp from the back, you need to assess it straight out of the camera, not with an individual shooter's sharpening already applied.
I use NO sharpening in C1 (or any other raw converter, for that matter). My portrait sample above also isn't really good to judge "inherent sharpness" from either, because it's been thru post-production. Later today, I'll post a crop of the TIFF straight out of C1. But trust me, the skin tones, WITHOUT any sharpening in C1, don't look "too sharp" or "crunchy" to me eye, but look quite natural.
The Leaf may be better; I don't know because I don't have one. My point is only that unsharpened P30 files, in my experience, have good skin tone.
Your sample images is exactly why I did not go for Phase....it is way tooo sharp for my....look a the guys skin!! Colors are nice.....but I love the film like feel that leaf backs give me!!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81455\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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William
you are right
At times I get lazy and leave C1 34%in (I just put in a new C1 and it defaults.I need to set my preferences, actually doe.I too use NO sharpening and NO noise reduction in my workflow)
Thewhole idea of film like reminds me of cine. The 24 frame and those pulldowns etc, drive me crazy. THOSE WERE LIMITATIONS OF THE TECHNOLOGY.Now they are features !
Same with film. De facto, film has some parts of image in less focus due to the film thickness. Also, biggest effect is the inherent 'dither' of film, that is, grain is random.
Maybe best sensors will be with dithering. Already inkjet needed dither to make it better for the eye.
Maybe Leaf is random pixels ? I dont thin so.
With no sharpening and all sensor sites i a plane, the focus will be sharp as image. Even with film you needed soft filtersfor portraits (or I am THATold??
Anyway, Laef and Phase can have PP, noise etc differences, but no way, unless it has random siting and thickness will a Leaf/dalsa sensor be much different from Phase/kodak
and yes, a few percent gaussian noise goes a long way
(though that one I showed needed an air brush!
But reember it was flash, and even with diffuser, can be pretty harsh on skin
you can air brush the real world, but you can't put back detail that the sensor missed.
That's why why I went Phase.
here is the no nuthindone, tiff file[WELL, it wont let me post the tiff, so here is a lvl 10 jpg] looks the same
Victor
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Unless Phase has changed it in their latest release, you have to disable sharpening in the Focus tool by checking the disable box. If you just slide the slider to zero some sharpening is still applied.
I think James Russell was right in saying it takes many hours of working with a DB to get the look that is right for you. I think both Phase and Leaf are good products that provide a solid base to refine on. I have a P25 and love what it does for me in Architecture/Interior. I just worked with an A75 yesterday on a fashion/product shoot and love the look of the files almost straight out of the back.
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Unless Phase has changed it in their latest release, you have to disable sharpening in the Focus tool by checking the disable box. If you just slide the slider to zero some sharpening is still applied.
You can globallydisablein 'preferences'
then sharpening and noise are 'greyed' out in the focus tab
the image above was processed that way NO added processing beyond raw conversion.
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I don't pay retail and never have. $30k is retail and what it lists for. Some people read way too much into these forums.
I was in the market for an A75 earlier this year when they first came out. There happen to be one on eBay. What had happened was the guy bought the A22 with the free upgrade to the A75 when they came out. That person could not afford to keep it and by the time the A75 came in he was ready to sell it, at a discount with no waiting. He was in the NYC area and we met up and I jumped on it. It was for real and with no worries as my Local Leaf rep was 100% behind the deal. He was also the one who made me go for it because he loaned me his A75 on three occassions.
I never said anything negative about Rick, but they did leave me hanging as they don't have any to send out. He took my call and within minutes was giving me an RMA #. On set that is useless. There seems to be a lot of people on here that can afford to have their back ship away for a couple of days. But I do not have that luxury and even less so on location with a client and a crew of 20 looking at you for answers.
Like someone else on this forum I do not do business with some retailers. From what I have read here about Steve Hendrix and PPR he/they seem great, I just don't know him and he doesn't know me. I use B&H, K&M, Drive In and Shoot Digital on the East and on the West Samy's, Smashbox and Quixote. That is it! I would rather spend the rest of my career shooting with a Holga than to give a dollar to Calumet or Jeff Hirsch's Fotocare.
I look to my manufacturer to support a $30k (RETAIL) product. Not my dealer! I have spent yearsd buying from B&H and knowing that I walk out with it and I am on my own.
For the past 10 years I have had Pentax 67, Contax 645 and Mamiya RZ 67. You always carried a second body on Mamiya and Contax and I always carried seven Pentax 67 bodies. The makers never heard from me. Maybe once a year to Mamiya and Contax for repair and that was usually just to let them know it was on the way for repair. Pentax every three years or so for the winding crank if I used too much 220.
My point was, with Phase you don't need dealer support and with Leaf you do. I prefer to go to one place and that is it. I had my P25 overnighted down and resumed the next morning. I have an RMA from Leaf and will send it out to them for repair.
I am certainly switching to Rollei with the Hy6 hopefully sooner than later and will most likely be selling the Aptus 75 and Phase One P25 and getting a P45+ and P30+ as a back up and higher ISO shooter.
So I will have two 1Ds MII's with RRS RA plates and a 28-70, 50mm and 85mm, four batteries, hoodman protectors and angled diopter viewer, two 580ex's wih quantum cables, Epson Viewer P4000, all with caps, straps and manuals for sale in the new year.
As well as two complete H1's with a CF adapter, 50-110, 80, 100, 120, 150, four film backs, a polaroid back, an Aptus 75 with five batteries and charger and a Phase One P25 with five batteries and charger. All with Really Right Stuff right angled tripod plates.
The Rollei seems like it will be my dream system. Don't think I could ask for much more, except maybe that the back rotates on the body and a 45 degree prism. But in due time.
I don't mean to beat someone when they are down, but it you paid $30,000 then you paid list price, and if you paid list price why would you go to ebay instead of a real dealer? I've had a couple of times that I've needed help with my Aptus and Steve Hendrix and Rick have really helped me out. I know that I feel great knowing that there is a team of people willing to help me when I need it.
I just don't understand why you went to ebay.
Finally, the support I have gotten from these guys has gone way beyond whatever they were contractually required to do to help me. I can't say enough about how important it is to deal with a reputable dealer when you're buying high cost, bleeding edge technology like this.
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