Luminous Landscape Forum
Site & Board Matters => About This Site => Topic started by: soslund on October 10, 2006, 08:31:20 pm
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I'm sorry, but $975 is just plain excessive for a DVD. He would sell a LOT more product and do much better from a financial standpoint if he were to lower the price. I have no trouble writing a check for big $, but c'mon Alain....
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Yeah, but he only has to sell one of them.
JC
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Yeah, but he only has to sell one of them.
JC
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Well it appears he already has... to some guy in Arizona.
Without having seen the content, my opinion isn't worth much, but, whilst on the one hand this is actually a ballpark price for the average "industry workshop" DVD, generally these things are funded by corporate accounts and are largely worthless. In this case, who knows. I have Alain's Composition CD, which is a lot cheaper, and worth having, but even then, their is little presentatin - just s bunch of files which you more or less have to sort through yourself. If the DVD is actually a "DVD", in the sense of a fully organised set of presentations and supporting material, with a menu, and easy navigation, in the LLVJ style, fine, but if it is just a DVD because the files woldn't fit on a CD, well that's another thing.
I'm also not so sure why Alain's monitor calibration profiles would be useful to anybody else....
I guess if you need to know exactly how a succesful businessman produces landscape prints for sale, then it could be a valuable investment. But I have to say it makes ImagePrint RIP - another way of greatly improving your prints - look like a bargain :-)
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for 975 bones you can buy all the how-to books ever written by some of the best photographers ever.....
i guess m. briot is targeting a very specific crowd.
amnon
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Having purchased other materials from Alain and getting in on the early offering which was prominently offered on his web site, I purchased the DVD for $775.
I've found that the DVD is very well organized wth a wealth of materials. Every lesson is presented as a Quicktime movie with additional supporting materials which can be viewed separately. I've found that working on one of my images in Photoshop while viewing a movie presentation has been very helpful. I can pause the movie and try what he is presenting on my own photographs and instantly see what works and what doesn't work on a particular image and why.
The DVD has more material and presentations that you would probably get in a 2-3 day workshop on printing and is costs a lot less than you would pay to go to such a workshop when you look at the workshop cost, transportation, lodging and meals.
The material is superb and covers just about everything you need to know about how to produce a fine art photograph from capture to mounting and matting and I've found it to be a worthwhile investment for me. I've already had several concepts and techniques that I have struggled with cleared up and made easily uderstandable.
Certainly, $975 is a lt of money, but when taken in perspective it isn't that much. This is certainly no corporate fluff training DVD.
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The material is superb and covers just about everything you need to know about how to produce a fine art photograph from capture to mounting and matting and I've found it to be a worthwhile investment for me.
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That's the bottom line, not that the content is a DVD or someone who's in person. In fact, there may be significant advantages to having the content on DVD such as being able to see it over and over again, stop it while working on a tutorial, etc. So I'm not sure that $975 for the content on DVD isn't any less appropriate than having some guy there in person or in a small classroom environment.
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Hey don't buy it !
I am certainly not although I did have some interest until the price was announced. Even $775 is over the top in my book.
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Excessive? Hmmmmmmm, let me think - if I have a legal problem a good lawyer will probably charge me $200 to $300 per hour.
Alain, you are in the wrong business if you want to make money!
No you are not in the wrong business - you make music I can see!
Your DVD is on my Xmas list.
Take care,
Don
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For $334.24, you can get all 15 issues of the Video Journal and the beta 3 tutorial on LightRoom by Michael. I think this puts the matter into perspective.
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For $334.24, you can get all 15 issues of the Video Journal and the beta 3 tutorial on LightRoom by Michael. I think this puts the matter into perspective.
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I think Alain priced it based upon what he charges for one of his printing workshops. It makes perfect sense in that respect, but I believe it is a poor business judgment. Better to sell 500 copies at $200 per copy than 20 at $875.
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I would buy a copy at $200. So, is MR going to come out with one closer to that $200 mark?
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That's the bottom line, not that the content is a DVD or someone who's in person. In fact, there may be significant advantages to having the content on DVD such as being able to see it over and over again, stop it while working on a tutorial, etc. So I'm not sure that $975 for the content on DVD isn't any less appropriate than having some guy there in person or in a small classroom environment.
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If not being somewhere to observe an event is not important, then why are Super Bowl tickets so outrageously expensive, but I can watch the same event, even record it for further viewing, at my home at no cost to me!!
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If not being somewhere to observe an event is not important, then why are Super Bowl tickets so outrageously expensive, but I can watch the same event, even record it for further viewing, at my home at no cost to me!!
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The goal of going to the Super Bowl ISN'T education, it's entertainment. Just like listening to music live versus on a CD isn't the same. But we're talking about an educational experience no? I think your analogy is a bit off.
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Like many of you, if I had the money....I would buy it. I agree thoroughly about being able to replay the videos and learn more each time. I've long had questions about the specific steps and nuances of making a gorgeous print.
At this stage / level of my photography I'd be pressed to decide between a new lens, a physical workshop, this DVD, or many other things.
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I think the issue most people would have with that isn't so much paying for the content, but the disk. Seminars prove that people are willing to pay big bucks for good teachers, but often the feel like they get more out of it. At the very least you have to go somewhere and that's worth something . No one likes to feel like they payed many hundreds of dollars for just this little piece of plastic or silicone or whatever it is.
(the DVD format doesnt much appeal to me, i would far rather have a book, but I can see what everyone means)
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As several forum members have pointed out, the DVD is priced similarly to my Expressive Print Seminar because the knowledge on the DVD is similar to the knowledge taught during the Seminar. In fact, the DVD goes further than the Seminar because it covers matting, framing, presentation, protection and curating which we do not go into during the Seminar. On the other hand the seminar gives you a chance to ask personal questions, interact with myself and other participants, be there in person and have your work reviewed (in some seminars). All in all, I think it is a tie, hence I feel the pricing is fair. However, in my view, the travel costs (flight, car rental, lodging, incidentals, etc.) make attending the seminar more costly, especially if you live far away from Arizona.
The DVD also comes with a complete audio recording of last year's Expressive Print seminar and with a 5x7 companion print from one of the images I work on in the DVD.
From the feedback I have received and from the feedback you can read on this forum, I strongly believe that the DVD is priced fairly.
Eventually, the choice is yours to purchase the DVD, or to attend the seminar, or to pass on both.
However, I do not think it would be fair to Expressive Print Seminar participants to discount the DVD to a fraction of the Seminar's cost.
Best regards,
Alain
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It really is a business decision for Alain, and if it works for him, finally that's what matters...
But more generally, why is this stuff so expensive in the US (photo seminars, workshops, etc) - in Europe similar things are far cheaper. I get the feeling that in the US, these events are to a degree appealing to people's vanity - they like to be associated with Alain, Michael, whoever. In Europe, there seems to be considerably less value placed on names - a workshop with Joe Cornish, for example, or Charlie Waite, can be had for well under Michael's (or Alain's, or Steve Kossack's...) prices. And a full fine art print workshop (e.g http://www.fineartpix.ch/setangebot.htm) (http://www.fineartpix.ch/setangebot.htm)) costs around $800 for a weekend ...
Ok, so we pay more for cameras and lenses, but, well, we seem to be far less willing to pay (over ?) high prices for expert tuition.... I guess it is down to market forces. If people are willing to pay, why price cheaper!
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Alain has made a commercial decision based on the amount of effort and value he has put in to the project which I'm sure we can all respect.
I'm still struggling with the beginning of the process (Composition) so I can't see myself buying the DVD in the near future. I have signed up for the new book, which I am very much looking forward to.
There are a number of photographers on the www who have an established body of work to offer. In my opinion people place a high value on integrity, quality and sustainability. People like Michael and Alain are able to offer the kind of sustainability people look for when buying products and services over the internet. That's not to say there are not hundreds of others out there equally good. I'm sure there are. It's just that these guys have first mover advantage. Something else I have noticed. Both Michael and Alain have quite uninspiring website design and layouts. Yet people see through that and on in to the content which is clearly far more important. I see quite a powerful positive message in that today.
To follow on from what David said. I have also noticed that photography workshops in Europe are the inverse of US based workshops. It's unusual as most things in Europe are more expensive.
p.s. David. I had to look up snowhenge. It was intriguing me too much! I was kind of what I expected but a world away from a snowy scene in Wiltshire!! Nice site btw. I also noticed that like me you are an exile in CH. I have been in ZG for about 4 years.
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The goal of going to the Super Bowl ISN'T education, it's entertainment. Just like listening to music live versus on a CD isn't the same. But we're talking about an educational experience no? I think your analogy is a bit off.
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Pardon me, but the analogy has to do with attending a function in person....that was the point....and the analogy was right on point. Thanks.
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Remember, this is the Age of Hype. Very little is what it's cracked up to be.
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Remember, this is the Age of Hype. Very little is what it's cracked up to be.
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Yes, and don't forget that you sometimes get what you pay for but you never get what you don't pay for, unless it's an unpleasant surprise.
Ciao - Rob C
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Before you shell out eight hundred bucks or so check out Tony Kuyper's Luminosity Mask Tutorial and actions. Now I have to rework most of my images
It's FREE
http://www.goodlight.us/writing/luminosity...itymasks-1.html (http://www.goodlight.us/writing/luminositymasks/luminositymasks-1.html)
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This is a tough one. I agree completely with Mr Briot that the pricing is "fair" (although as someone with almost a degree in economics I don't like using that word in this context).
What I'm not so sure about is whether this is a good business decision. Mr Briot apparently is pricing his DVD as a premium product as part of differentiating himself and all his work - creative and technical - from the competition. He is also perhaps trying to avoid cannibalizing his workshops - if you can get the DVD for fraction of the price of a workshop, why fly over?
Nevertheless, it should be clear that Mr Briot would profit more from selling far more of the product at a more affordable price and lower margins. Then again, Mr Briot is an established pro so I'm sure he knows what he's doing, and I believe the price is a carefully considered decision.
Personally I would be happy to buy the DVD at full price if I had that kind of money, since Mr Briot's free essays have been instrumental in improving my photography and I wouldn't mind supporting his efforts by buying a product which is sure to improve the area I feel I am weakest at (printing). I guess I need to graduate and get a job
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Nevertheless, it should be clear that Mr Briot would profit more from selling far more of the product at a more affordable price and lower margins.
Not necessarily - there is the risk of devaluing the Briot brand by flooding the market with mass product at too low a cost. If everyone can do a Briot then the market will become commoditised and the final artwork will become worthless. Alain has spent a long time building up his reputation, knowledge and skills better to protect that than earn a quick buck or two.
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All this Briot worship makes me want to puke. He clearly states in his audio cd that he wants to make $300/hour doing whatever he does associated with his photography.
If you want to support this arrogance and greed go for it !
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Not necessarily - there is the risk of devaluing the Briot brand by flooding the market with mass product at too low a cost. If everyone can do a Briot then the market will become commoditised and the final artwork will become worthless. Alain has spent a long time building up his reputation, knowledge and skills better to protect that than earn a quick buck or two.
While it is certain that he won't devalue his brand by flooding the market with a low cost
product there exists the possibility that he could marginalize his brand by nature of
economic 'exclusion'.
I,personally,don't think the sub-$1000 pricepoint will work,long term, but it is clear,after
reviewing the summary on his site,that the DVD is packed full of usefull and very time-
consuming (to produce) essays and tutorials and offers far more content than competitive
products.
The effort and expertise,on his behalf, certainly warrants the price but I'm not sure the market will agree.
Only Alain will know for sure. The rest of us only speculate.
Mark
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Not necessarily - there is the risk of devaluing the Briot brand by flooding the market with mass product at too low a cost. If everyone can do a Briot then the market will become commoditised and the final artwork will become worthless. Alain has spent a long time building up his reputation, knowledge and skills better to protect that than earn a quick buck or two.
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That's exactly what I was talking about when I mentioned him going for the premium market and differentiating himself and his product by the high price.
As to arrogance and greed, I don't understand what the beef some people have with money. If someone thinks Mr Briot's DVD is worth its price, so be it. If not, don't buy it. There's no need to go for the jugular just because someone is out to make a buck. We all work for a living - well, most do.
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If people will pay that much then i don't see a problem.
Maybe if i was getting a decent salary then i may consider it, for the moment
i would rather spend my cash on upgrading my equipment, my technique can
improve through free resources for now.
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Well to put it in perspective, I have purchased a few items from Mr. Briot.
One was his Marketing CD. It was more a loose compilation of various pdf files and such, and certainly did contain some useful information. However several of the files were corrupt and would not open. I believe they were "certificate of authenticity" labels, I did point this out to Alain in an email but never did receive a correct CD nor noncorrupt replacement files.
My second purchase was a few custom double mats with fancy corner cuts. I was pleased with the corner cuts but the cheap Crescent matboard the were made with left me with no desire to purchase any more. "Museum Quality"? I hardly think so.
I found his Audio CD entertaining but hearing he thinks he is worth $300/hour left me a little nonplussed. Maybe there is a French word that defines it more accurately.
My point is that Mr. Briot's marketing may be flawless. But what you actually get may not be.
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I do not see anything wrong in Alain Briot's hourly rates. Several professions charge similar rates. It might be more difficult to become a lawyer than a fine art photographer, on the other hand, the number of fine art photographers who are sucessfull at making a good living is certainly much smaller than the number of lawyers who do so. I hear some speculations that there might be only a few dozens of them. So this makes Alain Briot part of a quite rarefied group. Now add his willingness to discuss his art and business in detail, as well as his litteracy, and you have a rather unique offering.
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Mr. Briot is free to charge whatever he wants for his products. The public is free to buy them (or not). Why all the vitriol? If you think his DVD is overpriced, don't buy it. There are people out there charging more than $975 for an 8x10 print.
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Daniel Bell
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My point is that Mr. Briot's marketing may be flawless. But what you actually get may not be.
This is no different than any person or company trying to make a sale. Look at Canon, Microsoft, Epson, Apple, Sony, etc. They are masters of marketing. Their brochures are slick and flawless. I think we can all points out flaws in their products that are not mentioned in the brochures and advertising.
In the end it comes down to the same thing. It's up to the individual customer to make the choice whether a particular product is worth its price. This is true whether we're talking about the 1Ds II, Aperture, the PlayStation 3, or the Briot Printing Mastery DVD. This is capitalism.
Eric
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Well to put it in perspective, I have purchased a few items from Mr. Briot.
One was his Marketing CD. It was more a loose compilation of various pdf files and such, and certainly did contain some useful information. However several of the files were corrupt and would not open. I believe they were "certificate of authenticity" labels, I did point this out to Alain in an email but never did receive a correct CD nor noncorrupt replacement files.
My second purchase was a few custom double mats with fancy corner cuts. I was pleased with the corner cuts but the cheap Crescent matboard the were made with left me with no desire to purchase any more. "Museum Quality"? I hardly think so.
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Doug,
Regarding the mats you purchased, unless I am mistaken, you chose "Standard Quality" mats and not "Museum Quality" mats. Standard Quality mats are cut from regular matboard while Museum Quality mats are cut from museum quality boards. I don't think either is "cheap" but there is a difference in quality which is reflected by the respective cost for each. Standard quality mats are priced much lower than Museum quality mats.
Regarding the Marketing CD I must not have received your email otherwise I would have sent you either a replacement CD or would have emailed you the missing/corrupted files. Bad files on a CD occur quite rarely, but it can happen and when it does, as with any problem with an order, Natalie and I do address it immediately.
Let me know which files you need and I will send you replacements right away. Regarding emails, if you do not receive a response from me within a week it is a good idea to email back, or call my toll free number. I receive a very large volume of emails and while I do my best, the possibility of overlooking one of them is always there.
Alain
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Personally, I think Alain's pricing is perfectly acceptable. Unfortunately, too expensive for me as we are still paying off medical bills for my wife's battle with cancer. If I could, I would not only buy his training DVD, but would even attend a workshop.
Alain is an outstanding teacher and a mighty fine technician who has figured out the "Fine Art Photography" ballgame. To be able to learn from him is definitely worth the investment and right in line with the cost of getting additional schooling from the local university.
I don't understand why people are so up in arms over his prices. This ISN'T a "collective".
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This ISN'T a "collective".
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Well said.
Alain is perfectly entitled to charge whatever he chooses.
I don't get this whinging, photography is not a particuarly expensive profession compared to many others and professional training is cheap compared to many other professions.
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Something is worth what someone will pay for it. It may not be worth $975 to me, but if other people will pay $975 for a dvd then it must be worth that much to them. I can't imagine how it could be worth that much, but that doesn't really matter.
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I'm sorry, but $975 is just plain excessive for a DVD. [...] c'mon Alain....
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Alain Briot creates magnificent images which he sell at a reasonably high and fair price. Over the years he has successfully developed and continues to develop a niche market for his art and has built an enviable reputation as an artist.
In building his career and reputation, Alain must have discovered that in the art market, money is often not a deal breaking issue. In fact, a large number of rich people buy art to make a statement, to proclaim their achievement and in some not too frequent cases, because they truly know and appreciate art. In this environment, the higher a well known artist charges for his works, the stronger becomes the statement that a buyer of his works can make. Thus, once you sell to the affluent, increasing your prices every now and then is a winning formula. I suspect that Alain Briot has discovered and legitimately exploit this formula when it comes to his prints. I believe that this is a fair and sound strategy for him and for most others at his level of competence and notoriety.
Given that context, I would speculate that Alain Briot is, consciously or not, applying his art pricing strategy to his latest video seminar. And for all I know, it will probably fail to maximize his financial return for his effort. In the case of this DVD package of know-how (whose marginal cost of production is almost zero), the basic economic laws still apply. Unless I seriously misjudge the market, a price of say $125 would probably generate a net profit considerably larger than that which can be expected with a price of $995.
Nonetheless, there are advantages to Alain strategy: He can now make all kinds of special price reduction and bundling offers (it already started), New Years special, print and DVD specials, Seminar plus DVD specials, etc. Also, such a high price for this specific DVD will make his other DVD look comparatively more attractive.
So, for my part, I will have to look for a second hand specimen to become available.