Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: Frans Waterlander on April 30, 2018, 04:52:46 pm

Title: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: Frans Waterlander on April 30, 2018, 04:52:46 pm
My R2880 suddenly prints with a reddish color cast for both color and b&w images in normal printing mode and for b&w images in AWB mode. There have not been any changes in operating system, Photoshop version CS2, settings, paper, ink, etc. The nozzle check looks perfect.

Any ideas what may be going on here?
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: digitaldog on April 30, 2018, 08:59:24 pm
My R2880 suddenly prints with a reddish color cast for both color and b&w images in normal printing mode and for b&w images in AWB mode.

It's not just ABW mode. But maybe AWB is the issue; no such print mode.  :o
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: Frans Waterlander on April 30, 2018, 11:32:43 pm
Very helpful, Andrew!
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: Frans Waterlander on May 01, 2018, 12:39:04 am
Just read on another forum that the R2880 may have an unreliable cartridge ink level monitor in the sense that when the cartridge gets low, but still OK according to the monitor, ink supply may gradually decrease, causing color casts. My cyan cartridge is low, but according to the monitor not too low to use. If this causes less cyan ink than that would result in a reddish color cast. I've new cartridges on order, so time will tell if this is the issue here. I'll report back after receiving a new cyan cartridge.
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: digitaldog on May 01, 2018, 08:55:20 am
Very helpful, Andrew!
My pleasure Frans.
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: Farmer on May 02, 2018, 03:24:28 am
Just read on another forum that the R2880 may have an unreliable cartridge ink level monitor in the sense that when the cartridge gets low, but still OK according to the monitor, ink supply may gradually decrease, causing color casts. My cyan cartridge is low, but according to the monitor not too low to use. If this causes less cyan ink than that would result in a reddish color cast. I've new cartridges on order, so time will tell if this is the issue here. I'll report back after receiving a new cyan cartridge.

The printer doesn't have an ink level monitor.  It measures shots of ink against the known capacity if the cartridge, so if you're using genuine inks and not refilling or resetting, that won't be the issue, plus you would see the lack of ink in the nozzle check which you say is fine.

The low cartridge also shouldn't be an issue unless it's very old.

I would suggest removing, gently shaking, and then replacing each cartridge and then do a clean and then a nozzle check.  Failing that, it's probably work flow rather than hardware.
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: Frans Waterlander on May 02, 2018, 01:45:09 pm
The printer doesn't have an ink level monitor.  It measures shots of ink against the known capacity if the cartridge, so if you're using genuine inks and not refilling or resetting, that won't be the issue, plus you would see the lack of ink in the nozzle check which you say is fine.

The low cartridge also shouldn't be an issue unless it's very old.

I would suggest removing, gently shaking, and then replacing each cartridge and then do a clean and then a nozzle check.  Failing that, it's probably work flow rather than hardware.

I use Epson ink and paper, no refills, no resetting. The nozzle check will not tell you if the ink flow is lower than normal. I've done the shake, clean, nozzle check routine, but still have the color cast. Workflow, settings, etc. haven't changed, but I double and triple checked just to be sure. We'll see what happens when I get my new cartridges.
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: digitaldog on May 02, 2018, 02:36:50 pm
The nozzle check will not tell you if the ink flow is lower than normal.s.
Proof of concept?
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: enduser on May 02, 2018, 08:22:42 pm
Somewhere I read that there might be a Win 10 problem with magenta cast too strong.
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: Frans Waterlander on May 02, 2018, 11:08:44 pm
Somewhere I read that there might be a Win 10 problem with magenta cast too strong.

I use Win 8. A B&W image prints fine on my general purpose HP printer.
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: Farmer on May 05, 2018, 07:00:17 pm
The nozzle check will not tell you if the ink flow is lower than normal.

It will tell you if you a lot of things if you know how to look at it.  It will tell you if you have blocked or deflected nozzles (and you can tell the difference between the two).  It will tell you if you have pigment separation (i.e. you need to shake), it will tell you if you have a significant ink delivery issue without blockages or deflections.  It will tell you if the problems are in the head or in the ink lines.  So on and so on.

Without screenshots of your workflow or scans of the nozzle checks, we obviously can't diagnose further - only provide suggestions.
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: digitaldog on May 05, 2018, 07:05:21 pm
It will tell you if you a lot of things if you know how to look at it.
He doesn’t and he has made up his mind about that and the “problem”.
https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/awb-mode-with-r2880-suddenly-shows-reddish-tint.5508530/page-2#post-5662235
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: Frans Waterlander on May 06, 2018, 12:52:50 am
It will tell you if you a lot of things if you know how to look at it.  It will tell you if you have blocked or deflected nozzles (and you can tell the difference between the two).  It will tell you if you have pigment separation (i.e. you need to shake), it will tell you if you have a significant ink delivery issue without blockages or deflections.  It will tell you if the problems are in the head or in the ink lines.  So on and so on.

Without screenshots of your workflow or scans of the nozzle checks, we obviously can't diagnose further - only provide suggestions.

Thanks for your inputs Phil. Blocked and deflected nozzles - sure, no-brainers. But I would sincerely appreciate it if you could educate me as to how to recognize pigment separation, significant ink delivery issues, head vs. ink lines problems, and so on by studying the nozzle check print.

The nozzles of my printer are not blocked and not deflected. As for a reduced ink delivery of a particular color, say a reduction of 10 to 30%, I don't see how you would recognize that by looking at the nozzle check print, but it sure would cause a hell of a color cast like the one I'm experiencing.
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: Farmer on May 06, 2018, 01:13:48 am
Thanks for your inputs Phil. Blocked and deflected nozzles - sure, no-brainers. But I would sincerely appreciate it if you could educate me as to how to recognize pigment separation, significant ink delivery issues, head vs. ink lines problems, and so on by studying the nozzle check print.

The nozzles of my printer are not blocked and not deflected. As for a reduced ink delivery of a particular color, say a reduction of 10 to 30%, I don't see how you would recognize that by looking at the nozzle check print, but it sure would cause a hell of a color cast like the one I'm experiencing.

Sure!  Pigment separation is evidenced most easily with a blue light/UV lamp, but a loupe can also be enough - you're looking for the clear carrier being ejected without any pigment - so it looks like a blockage or partial blockage but in fact you have liquid hitting the page.  If you can see that the entire line of the nozzle pattern is "wet" but there's no colour, or if you have limited amounts of colour (either patchy or reduced intensity), then you are most likely looking at pigment separation (so check the carts are not massively out of date or more than 12 months since opening, and if not then agitate them and run a clean to move good ink into the lines again).

Similarly, when you're looking carefully at the nozzle checks, or more specifically at a series of them before and after printing, you can see if there's an ink delivery issue through the reduction of liquid in varying places that gets worse after printing.  Head versus lines?  Do the blockages move or not, do they clear and then come back?  True head blockages or head failure will result in missing nozzles that don't change (note that there might be a few peripheral nozzles "moving" but a core of unchanging blockages is what you're looking for here).  On that same note, if you have an entire colour missing that won't recover but all others are fine, it's probably a significant supply issue because it's very unusual to have that occur due to localised blockages or electronic failure (electronic failure will either give you incorrect output during printing or no output across the whole head (rarely you can have other results).

There are other things you can discern, too, but you need to know which printer, which media, and a bit more history (age of unit, environmental conditions, and so on).  Often you need a series of checks and test prints.  Sometimes, though, you need to physically check lines, dampers, and the like, but you try to check what you can without pulling the unit open and that's where nozzle checks and test prints come into it.  It takes time to recognise these things quickly, but anyone can make a good assessment given a bit of time and some tools to help them look more closely.
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: digitaldog on May 06, 2018, 09:49:26 am
As for a reduced ink delivery of a particular color, say a reduction of 10 to 30%, I don't see how you would recognize that by looking at the nozzle check print, but it sure would cause a hell of a color cast like the one I'm experiencing.
More assumptions.
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: Frans Waterlander on May 06, 2018, 01:07:45 pm
More assumptions.

So what, Andrew, am I exactly assuming here?
You think that a 10-30% reduction in one ink would not cause a significant color shift in a print? Please explain.
You think that you can detect a 10-30% reduction in one ink by looking at the nozzle check print? Please explain.
An opportunity to be constructive!
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: digitaldog on May 06, 2018, 01:14:24 pm
So what, Andrew, am I exactly assuming here?
See Reply #8 on: May 02, 2018 (http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=124550.msg1041775#msg1041775), 02:36:50 PM: everything!
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: nirpat89 on May 06, 2018, 02:23:49 pm
Frans:

This is kind of a wild idea, so take it for what it it's worth - but have you done alignment on the printer lately?  I have had at least one experience (on an HP B9180) where a magenta tint, particularly evident on the shadows, went away after successful alignment on the printer.  Prior to that, it was hanging on the LM ink not properly aligning with the rest (unlike Epsons which as manual alignment procedure, HP B9180 has an auto-alignment facility and you are at its mercy if there is a problem.)  The working theory I have is if the nozzles are misaligned, you could have the dots of various inks on top of each other instead of side by side, shifting the hue ever so slightly as a result.  In the darker areas, the black ink is usually accompanied by M and/or LM to counter the slight greenish tone of pure carbon.  Obviously, this one time observation does not prove the theory.  But it is a simple enough to try.  Never mind if you have done an alignment after you observed the problem...

:Niranjan.

Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: Frans Waterlander on May 06, 2018, 04:44:02 pm
See Reply #8 on: May 02, 2018 (http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=124550.msg1041775#msg1041775), 02:36:50 PM: everything!

I think you mean reply Q#7, but that's besides the point. Maybe you can give some unambiguous answers:
A) Do you think that a 10-30% reduction in one ink would not cause a significant color shift in a print? Please explain.
B) Do you think that you can detect a 10-30% reduction in one ink by looking at the nozzle check print? Please explain.
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: Farmer on May 06, 2018, 06:13:33 pm
I think you mean reply Q#7, but that's besides the point. Maybe you can give some unambiguous answers:
A) Do you think that a 10-30% reduction in one ink would not cause a significant color shift in a print? Please explain.
B) Do you think that you can detect a 10-30% reduction in one ink by looking at the nozzle check print? Please explain.

A - it would very likely cause a shift, but it depends on what colour you were printing and which colour was reduced.

B - I went through a number of situations in my previous reply.  Such a reduction would be due to either separation or ink delivery issues, but of which are detectable through nozzle check analysis as I've explained.
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: Frans Waterlander on May 06, 2018, 07:50:03 pm
A - it would very likely cause a shift, but it depends on what colour you were printing and which colour was reduced.

B - I went through a number of situations in my previous reply.  Such a reduction would be due to either separation or ink delivery issues, but of which are detectable through nozzle check analysis as I've explained.

So you believe that you would be able to see a reduction of 10-30% by studying the nozzle check print-out? I don't think so, especially if the reduction is rather stable, as it seems to be the case with my printer.
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: Farmer on May 06, 2018, 08:03:31 pm
So you believe that you would be able to see a reduction of 10-30% by studying the nozzle check print-out? I don't think so, especially if the reduction is rather stable, as it seems to be the case with my printer.

I have nearly 15 years' experience with this - I can spot it, particularly compared to a known good sample.  I think you could, too, with guidance as to what to look for - I think anyone can.

BTW, here's a nozzle check showing pigment separation (nothing wrong with the head) attached.
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: Frans Waterlander on May 06, 2018, 08:33:14 pm
I have nearly 15 years' experience with this - I can spot it, particularly compared to a known good sample.  I think you could, too, with guidance as to what to look for - I think anyone can.

BTW, here's a nozzle check showing pigment separation (nothing wrong with the head) attached.

I find it hard to believe that you or anyone else can notice a 10-30% more or less stable reduction in ink output by looking at the extremely thin, 1 nozzle wide lines of the nozzle check print. Can I prove it? I could if I could control the ink output, which I can't.

Having eliminated every other cause that I and others have thought of, it just may be that the ink monitor isn't working as intended in each and every possible scenario.
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: digitaldog on May 06, 2018, 09:37:04 pm
Can I prove it?
No, you can't.
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: Farmer on May 06, 2018, 09:38:26 pm
The "ink monitor" doesn't monitor live ink levels, as I explained.

And, you can't prove I can't do as I've said because I do it regularly.  Look, take the advice or leave it, no hard feelings and I really don't mind - it's all good.
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: Frans Waterlander on May 07, 2018, 12:50:29 am
No, you can't.

How about answering my questions?
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: Farmer on May 07, 2018, 03:12:43 am
I've answered them, Frans.  If Andrew chooses to also do so, that's up to him, but the issues have been discussed and explained.  You don't like those explanations and that's fine - doesn't bother me - I can't provide a definitive answer because you haven't provided enough details or samples to examine.  I hope the problem is resolved one way or another, but in the meantime, let it be, and consider that being antagonistic toward people trying to provide you with considerable experience and knowledge is perhaps not the most effective approach.
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: digitaldog on May 07, 2018, 09:02:08 am
I've answered them, Frans.  If Andrew chooses to also do so, that's up to him, but the issues have been discussed and explained.  You don't like those explanations and that's fine - doesn't bother me - I can't provide a definitive answer because you haven't provided enough details or samples to examine.  I hope the problem is resolved one way or another, but in the meantime, let it be, and consider that being antagonistic toward people trying to provide you with considerable experience and knowledge is perhaps not the most effective approach.
He’s not here for answers, only for attention. I will not feed the troll. See the Photonet links paper trails of other trolling examples should anyone believe Frans is here for problem solving; he isn’t! He’s made up his minds before posting again.
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: Frans Waterlander on May 07, 2018, 01:18:19 pm
I've answered them, Frans.  If Andrew chooses to also do so, that's up to him, but the issues have been discussed and explained.  You don't like those explanations and that's fine - doesn't bother me - I can't provide a definitive answer because you haven't provided enough details or samples to examine.  I hope the problem is resolved one way or another, but in the meantime, let it be, and consider that being antagonistic toward people trying to provide you with considerable experience and knowledge is perhaps not the most effective approach.

Phil, It's not a question of not liking your explanations. Your statement that you can see a 10-30% ink reduction in a nozzle check seems impossible to me. I'd hoped that I could challenge you on that without being accused of being antagonistic. If we can't be honest with each other and express our opinions on this forum, then we are heading the way of the Popular Photography and Shutterbug forums.
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: digitaldog on May 07, 2018, 01:38:37 pm
Phil, It's not a question of not liking your explanations. Your statement that you can see a 10-30% ink reduction in a nozzle check seems impossible to me.
Its an answer YOU don’t like! What seems impossible to you is not based on ANY proof of concept and simply your religious belief.
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: Doug Gray on May 07, 2018, 01:39:45 pm
When will your cyan inks arrive?
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: digitaldog on May 07, 2018, 01:47:00 pm
When will your cyan inks arrive?
Can't be soon enough!
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: Frans Waterlander on May 07, 2018, 03:38:36 pm
When will your cyan inks arrive?

FedEx says tomorrow.
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: digitaldog on May 07, 2018, 03:39:27 pm
FedEx says tomorrow.
Do you believe them?  ;D
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: Farmer on May 07, 2018, 06:08:08 pm
Phil, It's not a question of not liking your explanations. Your statement that you can see a 10-30% ink reduction in a nozzle check seems impossible to me. I'd hoped that I could challenge you on that without being accused of being antagonistic. If we can't be honest with each other and express our opinions on this forum, then we are heading the way of the Popular Photography and Shutterbug forums.

You haven't provided any data for me to actually analyse, so all you have is your belief versus my 15 years' experience doing it.  I explained how you read them, I even posted an example of a very unusual pattern and what it represented.  So at this point, you simply don't believe because you think you can't do it.  Humans can generally pick a delta E of 3 or more in colour variance.  A 10-30% variation is very significant and there would be tell-tale signs in the nozzle check, particularly compared to a good sample.  Don't believe me - it's fine.  Like I said, no hard feelings, but if that's how you feel then just let it go.  Andrew has probably twice the experience (or close to it) that I have - between us, we're far from novices.  Of course that doesn't make us infallible, but all you've offered as a counter to our commentary is that you don't believe it.  Sorry, that's very much antagonistic and far from useful.
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: digitaldog on May 07, 2018, 06:48:38 pm
You haven't provided any data for me to actually analyse, so all you have is your belief versus my 15 years' experience doing it.  I explained how you read them, I even posted an example of a very unusual pattern and what it represented.  So at this point, you simply don't believe because you think you can't do it.  Humans can generally pick a delta E of 3 or more in colour variance.  A 10-30% variation is very significant and there would be tell-tale signs in the nozzle check, particularly compared to a good sample.  Don't believe me - it's fine.  Like I said, no hard feelings, but if that's how you feel then just let it go.  Andrew has probably twice the experience (or close to it) that I have - between us, we're far from novices.  Of course that doesn't make us infallible, but all you've offered as a counter to our commentary is that you don't believe it.  Sorry, that's very much antagonistic and far from useful.
Fran's isn't interested in the correct answer. He's only interested in the answer that agrees with his pre-defined answer which he provided here and kept going. This is a tactic of his I've seen now four times over the years in this and the PhotoNet forums**. He'll ask a question about some 'problem' then immediately tell us the answer and if we don't agree (and most often do not as his answer has no basis in fact or can be proven), he goes on and on telling us we're all wrong. If every Epson print engineer told him he was wrong, he'd continue to argue with them. Because this IS his agenda in posting here. He will argue with an author on color management about color management (something he has proven in the past he doesn't understand well) because he is an author of a book on politics (https://smile.amazon.com/Obama-Doctrine-Socialism-Corruption-Economic/dp/1463641133/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1525733028&sr=8-1&keywords=frans+waterlander) and when all you know is a hammer (political arguments), everything looks like a nail. His agenda is to argue and gather attention hence, don't feed the trolls

He'll perhaps get his new cartridge and perhaps the issue will go away and he'll post his confirmation seen in post #4 (http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=124550.msg1041536#msg1041536) as being correct without using a lick of the scientific medhtodgy to conform his confirmation bias (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias). Could be a defective ink cartridge or one that simply failed, or one that needed shaking or a hardware issue, or air bubble in the ink line, or USER ERROR, etc.
** The paper trail; don't read unless you really need proof of agenda, it's a long and painful set of his floundering:

https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/three-different-color-calculators-cant-be-wrong-can-they.483168/ (https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/three-different-color-calculators-cant-be-wrong-can-they.483168/)
https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/nec-pa242w-with-spectraview-problems.501605/ (https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/nec-pa242w-with-spectraview-problems.501605/)
https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/flicker-eyestrain-or-headache-when-using-a-monitor-with-led-backlighting.484239/ (https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/flicker-eyestrain-or-headache-when-using-a-monitor-with-led-backlighting.484239/)
https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/do-solux-bulbs-meet-color-temp-specs.482331/#post-5072451 (https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/do-solux-bulbs-meet-color-temp-specs.482331/#post-5072451)
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: Frans Waterlander on May 07, 2018, 09:09:41 pm
You haven't provided any data for me to actually analyse, so all you have is your belief versus my 15 years' experience doing it.  I explained how you read them, I even posted an example of a very unusual pattern and what it represented.  So at this point, you simply don't believe because you think you can't do it.  Humans can generally pick a delta E of 3 or more in colour variance.  A 10-30% variation is very significant and there would be tell-tale signs in the nozzle check, particularly compared to a good sample.  Don't believe me - it's fine.  Like I said, no hard feelings, but if that's how you feel then just let it go.  Andrew has probably twice the experience (or close to it) that I have - between us, we're far from novices.  Of course that doesn't make us infallible, but all you've offered as a counter to our commentary is that you don't believe it.  Sorry, that's very much antagonistic and far from useful.

I don't have data for you to analyze, not before and after nozzle check prints; only after and they are flawless without tell-tale signs. And yes, I don't think I can look at nozzle check print lines and see that the ink amount is 10% less than "normal".  "Normal" being what? My memory of how it looked in the past? Highly unreliable and doomed to fail. Compare it to a previous nozzle check? I don't save my nozzle check prints. Even if I had, I don't think I would be able to put them side by side and detect a 10% difference in ink. You think you can? I would love to see you demonstrate that. How about 20 or 30%? I'm skeptical. I have a hunch, not more than that, that the magenta color cast in my ABW prints is caused by far less than 10% reduction in cyan ink delivery. ABW prints appear to be very sensitive to ink imbalances.
Also, we are not talking about color variations, but intensity variations of the same color and the human eye isn't that sensitive to it, even in side-by-side cases. For instance, LED chips used in numeric displays are selected to vary no more than 50% in intensity and the result is you can't tell the difference between the various segments or dots within the display. That's a 50% difference in intensity!
By the way, my background is in R&D, quality/reliability engineering and failure analysis in the electronics industry. I have used inkjet printers for over 30 years and I spent the last 10 of my 27 year career at Hewlett-Packard at their inkjet printer division in Vancouver, Washington.
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: Frans Waterlander on May 07, 2018, 09:11:27 pm
Fran's isn't interested in the correct answer. He's only interested in the answer that agrees with his pre-defined answer which he provided here and kept going. This is a tactic of his I've seen now four times over the years in this and the PhotoNet forums**. He'll ask a question about some 'problem' then immediately tell us the answer and if we don't agree (and most often do not as his answer has no basis in fact or can be proven), he goes on and on telling us we're all wrong. If every Epson print engineer told him he was wrong, he'd continue to argue with them. Because this IS his agenda in posting here. He will argue with an author on color management about color management (something he has proven in the past he doesn't understand well) because he is an author of a book on politics (https://smile.amazon.com/Obama-Doctrine-Socialism-Corruption-Economic/dp/1463641133/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1525733028&sr=8-1&keywords=frans+waterlander) and when all you know is a hammer (political arguments), everything looks like a nail. His agenda is to argue and gather attention hence, don't feed the trolls

He'll perhaps get his new cartridge and perhaps the issue will go away and he'll post his confirmation seen in post #4 (http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=124550.msg1041536#msg1041536) as being correct without using a lick of the scientific medhtodgy to conform his confirmation bias (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias). Could be a defective ink cartridge or one that simply failed, or one that needed shaking or a hardware issue, or air bubble in the ink line, or USER ERROR, etc.
** The paper trail; don't read unless you really need proof of agenda, it's a long and painful set of his floundering:

https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/three-different-color-calculators-cant-be-wrong-can-they.483168/ (https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/three-different-color-calculators-cant-be-wrong-can-they.483168/)
https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/nec-pa242w-with-spectraview-problems.501605/ (https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/nec-pa242w-with-spectraview-problems.501605/)
https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/flicker-eyestrain-or-headache-when-using-a-monitor-with-led-backlighting.484239/ (https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/flicker-eyestrain-or-headache-when-using-a-monitor-with-led-backlighting.484239/)
https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/do-solux-bulbs-meet-color-temp-specs.482331/#post-5072451 (https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/do-solux-bulbs-meet-color-temp-specs.482331/#post-5072451)

I love you too, Andrew.
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: digitaldog on May 07, 2018, 09:23:44 pm
I love you too, Andrew.
It is facts and proof you don’t love which is preferable!
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: digitaldog on May 07, 2018, 09:34:20 pm
I don't have data for you to analyze, not before and after nozzle check prints; only after and they are flawless without tell-tale signs.
But you've made up your mind what the problem is, despite your lack of data!
Quote
And yes, I don't think I can look at nozzle check print lines and see that the ink amount is 10% less than "normal".
But despite this admission, you've made up your mind what the problem is!
Quote
"Normal" being what? My memory of how it looked in the past?

Had you considered, as many of the people who've attempted to aid you have, kept a normally reported (and then print) nozzle check, you would know. But despite this admission, you've made up your mind what the problem is!
Quote
I don't save my nozzle check prints.
Maybe you'll consider that in the future.
Quote
Even if I had, I don't think I would be able to put them side by side and detect a 10% difference in ink.
You're excellent at assumptions. After admitting what you don't know or what data you didn't keep! Sloppy but consistent.
Quote
You think you can?
He answered the question you will not accept but some of us will.
Quote
I would love to see you demonstrate that. How about 20 or 30%? I'm skeptical.
Yes, you are; predetermined concepts as I've outlined. Here in this thread, and the other's provided. The paper trail is there.
Quote
I have a hunch,....
Haven't you assumed enough here? Yes! Less hunches, more actual data. Easier for you to guess, assume and make hunches.
Quote
Also, we are not talking about color variations, but intensity variations of the same color and the human eye isn't that sensitive to it, even in side-by-side cases.
Don't go down a a greater path you know so little about; color appearance, color management.
Quote
By the way, my background is in R&D, quality/reliability engineering and failure analysis in the electronics industry.
Even if true (difficult to believe), not designing Epson printers, accepting facts or supplying any of your own.
Quote
I have used inkjet printers for over 30 years and I spent the last 10 of my 27 year career at Hewlett-Packard at their inkjet printer division in Vancouver, Washington.
I will assume (and I rarely do), the restrooms at that division were pretty clean thanks to your work there.  :o  Amazingly, you don't own an HP ink jet. Not amazingly, you don't know much about the Epson printer you own. By your own admissions here!
All that experience at HP with ink jets, you're here and over at PhotoNet asking for advise then not taking any. More like seeking attention.


Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: Frans Waterlander on May 07, 2018, 10:06:30 pm
It would be nice if you put at least as much energy in helping to solve the issue here as you put into trying to put me down, but I'm not holding my breath.

And talking about assumptions: you assume I don't own an HP printer. I own an HP printer and you would have know that if you paid attention; I mentioned that in my posts. You also assumed that I didn't talk to Epson about this; I did before I posted here. I could comb through your posts in this thread and make a long list of all the assumptions you made and why each and every one of them is wrong.

A word of advice, Andrew: GROW UP!!!

Since you question my background, is it OK to question yours?
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: digitaldog on May 07, 2018, 10:15:43 pm
It would be nice if you put at least as much energy in helping to solve the issue here as you put into trying to put me down, but I'm not holding my breath.
Energy well spent outing trolls. All the help you got here and in the other posts I provided were ignored. That is your (now well known) M.O. for posting every year or so.
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: digitaldog on May 07, 2018, 10:19:45 pm
Since you question my background, is it OK to question yours?
Unlike you, fully transparent:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/digitaldog (https://www.linkedin.com/in/digitaldog)
http://digitaldog.net/about/ (http://digitaldog.net/about/)
In terms of my experience with Epson:
http://www.moosepeterson.com/blog/epson-print-academy/ (http://www.moosepeterson.com/blog/epson-print-academy/)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wWUc8BZgWE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wWUc8BZgWE)
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: enduser on May 08, 2018, 12:33:21 am
Best if you've developed a dislike of someone is to limit replies.
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: Frans Waterlander on May 08, 2018, 01:38:41 am
Best if you've developed a dislike of someone is to limit replies.

How true, but so hard to do.
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: Farmer on May 08, 2018, 01:44:45 am
Tell me, Frans, with the nozzle check pattern image that I posed, what would you have considered the issue to be (if you had any idea at all) assuming I hadn't told you what the problem was?  I don't believe you would have had any idea, but I knew straight away, and I was correct.  I'm sure there are things you know or can deduce that I can't, and some of them maybe I couldn't even learn how to do it, but I wouldn't assume such things were impossible just because I wasn't familiar with them.

I'm not guaranteeing that I could correctly diagnose your problem, but I am saying there are many things you can determine from nozzle check patterns.  I also told you twice that the printer you have doesn't have an ink level detection sensor.  It counts dots fired and subtracts from the original total and write a current total to the chip.  You've ignored being told that twice.

Again, I don't care if you believe me or not - really - it affects me not at all :-)  You, on the other hand, might get some useful advice on how to work out what's wrong with your printer if you care to listen.  If not, all good, but don't come here and tell me I can't do something just because you can't.
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: Frans Waterlander on May 08, 2018, 02:24:13 pm
Tell me, Frans, with the nozzle check pattern image that I posed, what would you have considered the issue to be (if you had any idea at all) assuming I hadn't told you what the problem was?  I don't believe you would have had any idea, but I knew straight away, and I was correct.  I'm sure there are things you know or can deduce that I can't, and some of them maybe I couldn't even learn how to do it, but I wouldn't assume such things were impossible just because I wasn't familiar with them.

I'm not guaranteeing that I could correctly diagnose your problem, but I am saying there are many things you can determine from nozzle check patterns.  I also told you twice that the printer you have doesn't have an ink level detection sensor.  It counts dots fired and subtracts from the original total and write a current total to the chip.  You've ignored being told that twice.

Again, I don't care if you believe me or not - really - it affects me not at all :-)  You, on the other hand, might get some useful advice on how to work out what's wrong with your printer if you care to listen.  If not, all good, but don't come here and tell me I can't do something just because you can't.

Never experienced pigment separation in 30 years of working with inkjet printers, including 10 year working at the HP Vancouver inkjet printer division, never saw a nozzle check like the one you posted. If my printer ever behaved like that I would try to learn about it and ask help from experts like you.

Just because I'm not familiar with pigment separation doesn't therefor mean that I have no idea whether or not one can spot reduced ink output in a nozzle check print. I maintain that it is impossible to look at a nozzle check print and determine that the ink output is 10% less than "normal" or 20% less or 30% less, even more so if one doesn't have a "known good" nozzle check print to compare it to, as is my situation.

I'm well aware of how the ink monitor works, so forgive me for not reacting to your comments, twice.
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: digitaldog on May 08, 2018, 02:36:58 pm
Never experienced pigment separation in 30 years of working with inkjet printers, including 10 year working at the HP Vancouver inkjet printer division, never saw a nozzle check like the one you posted. If my printer ever behaved like that I would try to learn about it and ask help from experts like you
As such, impossible.
If you've only imagined it, you've never experienced it.
Next we'll be told, the nozzle check Farmer experienced, kept, photographed and supplied is what, fake news and a witch hunt?
Try to learn? That hasn't been the case in these series of posts. Dismissing what actual experts tell you; yup that tactic is perfectly clear.
Quote
I'm well aware of how the ink monitor works, so forgive me for not reacting to your comments, twice.
Seems what you're aware of comes from searching the net, and without reference and rather recently despite being told what you read isn't correct:
http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=124550.msg1041536#msg1041536 (http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=124550.msg1041536#msg1041536) :
Quote
Just read on another forum that the R2880 may have an unreliable cartridge ink level monitor in the sense that when the cartridge gets low, but still OK according to the monitor, ink supply may gradually decrease, causing color casts.My cyan cartridge is low, but according to the monitor not too low to use.
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: Farmer on May 08, 2018, 03:34:24 pm
Never experienced pigment separation in 30 years of working with inkjet printers, including 10 year working at the HP Vancouver inkjet printer division, never saw a nozzle check like the one you posted. If my printer ever behaved like that I would try to learn about it and ask help from experts like you.

Just because I'm not familiar with pigment separation doesn't therefor mean that I have no idea whether or not one can spot reduced ink output in a nozzle check print. I maintain that it is impossible to look at a nozzle check print and determine that the ink output is 10% less than "normal" or 20% less or 30% less, even more so if one doesn't have a "known good" nozzle check print to compare it to, as is my situation.

And yet in 15 years I've seen it many times.  Not everyone experiences the same things in a related field.  The thing with reduced ink output is that it's not like a tap that's had the flow reduced.  That's not how print heads work.  It means the print head is somehow starved of supply or receiving poor supply (separated, for example).  So, yes, you can spot from the nozzle pattern when it's not printing correctly (which, after all, is exactly what it's designed for).  You just need a loupe, an understanding of the ink path and of how the head works, and experience of what's correct and normal.  You complained earlier it was only 1mm wide, but with a loupe you're moving toward looking at the dot structure (usually you don't need quite that much magnification), and there's plenty of data to examine.

I'm well aware of how the ink monitor works, so forgive me for not reacting to your comments, twice.

Then why did you twice suggest otherwise?  Odd.
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: digitaldog on May 08, 2018, 04:16:54 pm


Then why did you twice suggest otherwise?  Odd.
It’s only odd Farmer, the first time or two you engage with this fellow under the false impression he wants help and that’s why he posts. Doesn’t take too long to get hip to his agenda in posting.
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: Frans Waterlander on May 08, 2018, 04:39:05 pm
"Then why did you twice suggest otherwise?  Odd." Never did.
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: Frans Waterlander on May 08, 2018, 04:40:35 pm
Received my cartridges, installed, color cast gone, both in color mode and ABW.
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: digitaldog on May 08, 2018, 04:45:09 pm
Received my cartridges, installed, color cast gone, both in color mode and ABW.
peace and quiet at last!
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: Doug Gray on May 08, 2018, 05:19:10 pm
Frans,

It would be interesting to compare nozzle checks with those prior to replacing the cyan cartridge now that you have a good/bad reference.

Might be good to keep a set of known good nozzle prints for future reference. Especially if you can see a difference but either way it may be useful in the future.
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: Frans Waterlander on May 08, 2018, 06:03:50 pm
So, what did I learn? That some people are nicer and more helpful than others. As if I didn't know! But seriously, the way I see it and after having looked at every possibility that I and others could come up with I am still not sure what caused the color shift other than it looks like not enough cyan ink was put down. Why that was the case, I'm still not sure. I see two most likely candidates, however unlikely they seem to be:
 A) The cyan cartridge was running on empty, as indicated by the ink monitor, and suddenly, after being fine for hundreds of prints, supplied less ink. If that is the case then the ink monitor may not handle all corner cases correctly.
 B) The cyan cartridge, after being fine for hundreds of prints, suddenly turned bad. What that bad may be, I don't know. It was certainly not clogged nozzles, deflected nozzles or pigment separation.
 Hate it if you don't know for sure what happened.

PS: nozzle check print outs before and after replacing the cyan cartridge appear to be exactly the same.
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: digitaldog on May 08, 2018, 06:13:51 pm
A) The cyan cartridge was running on empty, as indicated by the ink monitor, and suddenly, after being fine for hundreds of prints, supplied less ink. If that is the case then the ink monitor may not handle all corner cases correctly.
 B) The cyan cartridge, after being fine for hundreds of prints, suddenly turned bad. What that bad may be, I don't know. It was certainly not clogged nozzles, deflected nozzles or pigment separation.
As predicted before you even got the new cartridge:

He'll perhaps get his new cartridge and perhaps the issue will go away and he'll post his confirmation seen in post #4 as being correct without using a lick of the scientific medhtodgy to conform his confirmation bias. Could be a defective ink cartridge or one that simply failed, or one that needed shaking or a hardware issue, or air bubble in the ink line, or USER ERROR, etc.
A is wrong and explained why.
B is possible but since your testing methodology (lack of nozzle checks, trying suggested fixes) was so poorly done, we'll never know.
What you should have learned:
A. Keep spare ink carts around.
B. Don't ask questions when you know you'll reject the answers.
C. Keep a nozzle check that is known to be good (after printing to prove so), LEARN to read them (you were shown, probably fell on deaf ears).

"Listen to understand instead of listening to respond." - Barack Obama
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: Farmer on May 08, 2018, 06:51:48 pm
A) The cyan cartridge was running on empty, as indicated by the ink monitor, and suddenly, after being fine for hundreds of prints, supplied less ink. If that is the case then the ink monitor may not handle all corner cases correctly.
 B) The cyan cartridge, after being fine for hundreds of prints, suddenly turned bad. What that bad may be, I don't know. It was certainly not clogged nozzles, deflected nozzles or pigment separation.
 Hate it if you don't know for sure what happened.

PS: nozzle check print outs before and after replacing the cyan cartridge appear to be exactly the same.

A - Simply not possible.  If the cart was empty or not providing enough ink, you would either see that in the nozzle check or, if it had partial supply, you'd see the effect gradually appear as the supply was unable to keep up with demand.  But, given this is a small cartridge unit, running out is a pretty sudden and obvious issue.

B - It may have been some separation or there could have been something else wrong with the ink for some reason (how long after opening it was it in the printer?)

It would be useful if you posted before and after nozzle checks from before and after prints.
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: Frans Waterlander on May 08, 2018, 07:46:32 pm
A - Simply not possible.  If the cart was empty or not providing enough ink, you would either see that in the nozzle check or, if it had partial supply, you'd see the effect gradually appear as the supply was unable to keep up with demand.  But, given this is a small cartridge unit, running out is a pretty sudden and obvious issue.

B - It may have been some separation or there could have been something else wrong with the ink for some reason (how long after opening it was it in the printer?)

It would be useful if you posted before and after nozzle checks from before and after prints.

Before and after nozzle checks are identical.
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: Farmer on May 08, 2018, 07:55:46 pm
To you.
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: digitaldog on May 08, 2018, 07:58:48 pm
To you.
I warned you its pointless to convince him.  ;)
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: Frans Waterlander on May 08, 2018, 08:08:44 pm
To you.

I've looked at nozzle checks a few times and I can tell you, these are identical. What more do you want? A hi-res scan? Of all the inks or cyan only?
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: digitaldog on May 08, 2018, 08:21:42 pm
What more do you want? A hi-res scan? Of all the inks or cyan only?
Yes and yes; can you actually do that?
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: Frans Waterlander on May 08, 2018, 11:13:34 pm
Yes and yes; can you actually do that?

Yes, I can actually do that. One image is of the nozzle check print with the old cyan cartridge (magenta cast in B&W print) and the other is with the new cartridge (no color cast in B&W print). Just to make it interesting I don't tell which is which. Fair enough? The prints have been scanned at 800dpi; I couldn't go higher res giving the size of the area to be scanned.
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: digitaldog on May 08, 2018, 11:27:48 pm
Yes, I can actually do that. One image is of the nozzle check print with the old cyan cartridge (magenta cast in B&W print) and the other is with the new cartridge (no color cast in B&W print). Just to make it interesting I don't tell which is which. Fair enough? The prints have been scanned at 800dpi; I couldn't go higher res giving the size of the area to be scanned.
So you can't even produce two scans with the same density? Sad.
Take both, place em in Photoshop on separate layers. Set blend mode to Difference, line em up. Switch back to Normal mode. Scan A is lighter. And if you zoom in you can see what appears to be less magenta ink due in part either to an issue at the time it was made or due to your inability to scan two images identically.
Either way, nothing you've provided here, especially the scans (your only piece of 'evidence') prove the predetermined concept in A which is wrong. So we are back to:

A is wrong and explained why.
B is possible but since your testing methodology and scanning methodology (lack of nozzle checks, trying suggested fixes) was so poorly done, we'll never know. Nor do I suspect does anyone care. Your MO in posting is far more clear than your scanning samples.  :-[
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: Farmer on May 09, 2018, 12:49:02 am
The resolution is a touch low and there does appear to be a slight variance in the scan dynamics, but it's probably OK.

B shows more scatter and less definition than A in the cyan nozzle check.  A has more definition and generally higher density.  During the B print one of the nozzles had a partial deflection.

Undoubtedly neither check is showing an empty or virtually empty card - ink supply is consistent.

A has more consistent dot gain but it's slight.

Overall they are indeed very similar, I agree.  However, A is better than B and I would suspect that was your "bad" cart and it appears to be less consistent.  This could be separation, although generally the smaller carts are much less likely to suffer this, so it could also be that you had a slightly bad seal and a touch of air getting into it.  If it happens again with the new cart at some point, you may want to look to see if there's any dried ink or other detritus affecting the seating of the cart in the holder or affecting the deal.

A first hand examination would be better, though, particularly given the slightly inconsistent scan.  Also, hold on to your "good" check for future reference as that is really very useful.  In this instance, with the scans available, it's inconclusive but my suspicion is as above.
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: digitaldog on May 09, 2018, 10:14:17 am
The resolution is a touch low and there does appear to be a slight variance in the scan dynamics, but it's probably OK.
If we examine just paper white, using a 5x5 sampling in PS and extract Lab values, we see that the two scans are a deltaE*ab 2000 of 4.58; pretty bad!
So just an attempt to make two consecutive scans correctly and matching were a struggle and the data provided for 'analysis' is off the bat, flawed.


The prints have been scanned at 800dpi; I couldn't go higher res giving the size of the area to be scanned.
That statement makes absolutely no sense as written.
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: Doug Gray on May 09, 2018, 12:59:19 pm
One of the differences between a nozzle check and a print is that the overall flow rate is lower for nozzle checks. However, the flow rate at each nozzle is higher.

If there was a flow rate restriction at the nozzle the difference should be apparent because more ink per sec. goes through the nozzle.

If there was an overall flow rate restriction, but not a per nozzle restriction, then there would be little or no difference since the overall flow rate is much lower.
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: Frans Waterlander on May 09, 2018, 04:19:53 pm
The resolution is a touch low and there does appear to be a slight variance in the scan dynamics, but it's probably OK.

B shows more scatter and less definition than A in the cyan nozzle check.  A has more definition and generally higher density.  During the B print one of the nozzles had a partial deflection.

Undoubtedly neither check is showing an empty or virtually empty card - ink supply is consistent.

A has more consistent dot gain but it's slight.

Overall they are indeed very similar, I agree.  However, A is better than B and I would suspect that was your "bad" cart and it appears to be less consistent.  This could be separation, although generally the smaller carts are much less likely to suffer this, so it could also be that you had a slightly bad seal and a touch of air getting into it.  If it happens again with the new cart at some point, you may want to look to see if there's any dried ink or other detritus affecting the seating of the cart in the holder or affecting the deal.

A first hand examination would be better, though, particularly given the slightly inconsistent scan.  Also, hold on to your "good" check for future reference as that is really very useful.  In this instance, with the scans available, it's inconclusive but my suspicion is as above.

Phil, thank you so much for your constructive feedback. You are quite right: A is the new cart and B the old one. I'll certainly inspect the orifice area where the cart connects if this color cast issue happens again. I've attached higher res and better matching scans of the cyan nozzle check areas.
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: digitaldog on May 09, 2018, 05:03:35 pm
Phil, thank you so much for your constructive feedback. You are quite right: A is the new cart and B the old one.
And pretty easy to see IF YOU LOOK, that there are issues with scan B, by again realigning them up as layers using difference then not, there IS an issue and alignment of dots within the nozzle check with Scan B!!!!
Congratulations on figuring out how to work your scanner....
Title: Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
Post by: Farmer on May 09, 2018, 06:13:50 pm
One of the differences between a nozzle check and a print is that the overall flow rate is lower for nozzle checks. However, the flow rate at each nozzle is higher.

If there was a flow rate restriction at the nozzle the difference should be apparent because more ink per sec. goes through the nozzle.

If there was an overall flow rate restriction, but not a per nozzle restriction, then there would be little or no difference since the overall flow rate is much lower.

Absolutely right, Doug.  This is where checks taken before and immediately after a print can help (not always, but often) as an ink supply issue that occurs during regular printing may still be evident in a nozzle check done immediately following the print.