Luminous Landscape Forum
The Art of Photography => The Coffee Corner => Topic started by: LesPalenik on April 27, 2018, 06:10:42 am
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European Union countries voted on Friday in favour of a near-total ban on neonicotinoid insecticides which are blamed for an alarming collapse in bee populations as well as other beneficial insects and many birds. The move comes after the European food safety agency said in February that most uses of the chemicals posed a risk to bees, prompting environmentalists to push the 28-nation EU to immediately outlaw them. Bees help pollinate 90 percent of the world's major crops, but in recent years have been dying off from "colony collapse disorder," a mysterious scourge blamed on mites, pesticides, virus, fungus, or a combination of these factors.
A Commission statement said EU states had "endorsed a proposal by the European Commission to further restrict the use of three active substances... for which a scientific review concluded that their outdoor use harms bees." The pesticides—clothianidin, imidacloprid and thiamethoxam—are based on the chemical structure of nicotine and attack the nervous systems of insect pests.
Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2018-04-eu-bee-killing-pesticides.html#jCp
Meanwhile, in North America, the news is not as good.
The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency is considering allowing the bee-killing pesticide thiamethoxam to be sprayed on the most widely grown crops in the United States. The application, if approved, would allow the highly toxic pesticide to be sprayed directly on 165 million acres of wheat, barley, corn, sorghum, alfalfa, rice and potato.
Canada proposes to limit, not ban, use of pesticides that kill bees. Neonics are most often used as seed treatments. In Ontario alone, more than one million hectares (nearly three million acres) were planted with neonic-treated corn and soy seed in 2017, despite provincial restrictions to reduce neonic use.
A plan to protect pollinators must address neonic seed treatments and sprays.
https://www.biologicaldiversity.org/news/press_releases/2017/pesticides-12-19-2017.php
https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2017/12/19/canada-proposes-to-limit-not-ban-use-of-pesticides-that-kill-bees.html
https://action2.davidsuzuki.org/neonics
The bee below was captured on a Blueweed flower (Echium vulgare) in a pesticide free area in Carden Alvar in Ontario
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It's a race: will we die off first, or will the animals and insects that keep us alive?
Something tells me they would all fare very much better without us.
Rob
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It's a race: will we die off first, or will the animals and insects that keep us alive?
Something tells me they would all fare very much better without us.
Rob
Most definitely they would fare better without us. As reported also recently:
Scientists have uncovered evidence of ancient humans engaged in a deadly face-off with a giant sloth, showing for the first time how our ancestors might have tackled such a formidable prey. Standing over 2 meters tall, with forelegs tipped with claws, giant sloths lived until around 11,000 years ago. Most scientists believe over-hunting by humans eventually led to their extinction.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-science-giant-sloth/giant-sloth-vs-ancient-man-fossil-footprints-track-prehistoric-hunt-idUSKBN1HW2L0
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Les: bravo to you for posting this and to the EU for taking this step. Neonicotinoids are systemic pesticides that persist in the plants for quite some time. The state of Maryland banned their sale for residential use last year; a small step but a positive one nevertheless. I'd love to see a complete prohibition on their use.
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It's a race: will we die off first, or will the animals and insects that keep us alive?
Something tells me they would all fare very much better without us.
Humankind could solve all the harm being caused to nature and other living species. Ultimately we are the only living species who can voluntarily determine its own auto extinction to make a better world for the rest of living species. The fact that this idea is never even commented makes it clear that selfishness rules the world.
Only the lack of resources will put an end to this situation and a balance will be stablished. We live better than in the XX but I doubt people in XXII will live better than us.
Regards
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Ultimately we are the only living species who can voluntarily determine its own auto extinction to make a better world for the rest of living species. The fact that this idea is never even commented makes it clear that selfishness rules the world.
Maybe the solution is personal, Guillermo. Check the hilarious "Microplastics" thread. There are posters on that thread who individually are going to give up plastics in order to save the planet. You probably could follow the same logic with regard to extinction in order to begin the cleanup of the planet and "make a better world for the rest of living species." You could demonstrate beyond a doubt that you're not part of the selfishness that rules the world.
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You could demonstrate beyond a doubt that you're not part of the selfishness that rules the world.
I am a part of it, when did I say I'm not?. I was just stating a fact usually not admitted.
Regards
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Humankind could solve all the harm being caused to nature and other living species. Ultimately we are the only living species who can voluntarily determine its own auto extinction to make a better world for the rest of living species. The fact that this idea is never even commented makes it clear that selfishness rules the world.
The fact that this idea is never even commented makes it clear that selfishness saneness rules the world. Still.
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All in all, I think that there is going to be a great future for any company cornering the market for white sticks.
Rob
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I am a part of it, when did I say I'm not?. I was just stating a fact usually not admitted.
Regards
Hi Guillermo. I didn't say you're not. What I said was that like the people now eschewing plastic because they think it's contaminating the planet, if you think that by living you're contaminating the planet there's a similar, simple solution to the problem.
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Hi Guillermo. I didn't say you're not. What I said was that like the people now eschewing plastic because they think it's contaminating the planet, if you think that by living you're contaminating the planet there's a similar, simple solution to the problem.
Simple solution? Indeed: stay out of the sea. Just like the plastic should.
Just between the two of us, I had thought that the flavour of fish was not what it was, and I had been blaming the chefs.
:-)
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Simple solution? Indeed: stay out of the sea. Just like the plastic should.
Just between the two of us, I had thought that the flavour of fish was not what it was, and I had been blaming the chefs.
:-)
I'm all for this.
I was in Europe two weeks ago and whenever I'm there, it never ceases to amaze me how much better the produce tastes.
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I'm all for this.
I was in Europe two weeks ago and whenever I'm there, it never ceases to amaze me how much better the produce tastes.
That may well be true, but don't overlook the fact that there are massive variations between eating establishments and what a good woman can create in her own kitchen. I would rather still have the option of my wife's efforts than all of those of the many places where we used to eat, both on business trips as well as for pleasure.
From Cote d'Azur top hotels to simple Logis, the main difference I became aware of was something called honesty.
At home, it was ever honest, and the flavours were not out of catering trucks or the iike. I have the same kitchen, some of the same shops and market stalls exist today, but skills? Gotta be joking: it's why I blow most of the pension seeking my fuel elsewhere. I mean fuel, not eating pleasure.
:-(
.
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That may well be true, but don't overlook the fact that there are massive variations between eating establishments and what a good woman can create in her own kitchen. I would rather still have the option of my wife's efforts than all of those of the many places where we used to eat, both on business trips as well as for pleasure.
From Cote d'Azur top hotels to simple Logis, the main difference I became aware of was something called honesty.
At home, it was ever honest, and the flavours were not out of catering trucks or the iike. I have the same kitchen, some of the same shops and market stalls exist today, but skills? Gotta be joking: it's why I blow most of the pension seeking my fuel elsewhere. I mean fuel, not eating pleasure.
:-(
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I'm not talking skill though. I'm talking going to the store, buying some produce and just eating it.
For some reason we insist on using so much fertilizers here, that the produce grows bigger then it naturally does. Sure, you get more yield, but the flavor is so bland.
We bought a quart of strawberries in France that were less then half the size they are here, but the flavor was so much better.
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I was in Europe two weeks ago and whenever I'm there, it never ceases to amaze me how much better the produce tastes.
A friend of mine spends about half a year in Canada and half a year in Ireland. He reports also that the quality of produce in Ireland is higher than in Canada.
When I was there, I was impressed by the variety of fresh fish in the fish stores. And you can buy there excellent Belgian and Swiss chocolates for half price than on the American continent. Same as good red wines.
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I'm not talking skill though. I'm talking going to the store, buying some produce and just eating it.
For some reason we insist on using so much fertilizers here, that the produce grows bigger then it naturally does. Sure, you get more yield, but the flavor is so bland.
We bought a quart of strawberries in France that were less then half the size they are here, but the flavor was so much better.
There is a taste difference between irrigated strawberries, different variety, degree of ripeness at picking, and the soil they were grown in.
The ones i sampled in California, directly in the fields, picked as fully ripe, were much better than the same variety picked and shipped to Texas.
i once tasted "wild" strawberries in the hills of North Carolina during a picking expedition. Unfortunately we did not return with any in our baskets. They were so good.
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Simple solution? Indeed: stay out of the sea. Just like the plastic should.
Just between the two of us, I had thought that the flavour of fish was not what it was, and I had been blaming the chefs.
:-)
And the sad fact is that as we age, our taste buds age too, and our ability to discriminate and appreciate subtle flavors decreases. It gripes me that 30 years ago when I could appreciate the finer points of $50 wine, I could not afford it. Now that I can afford it ... well, you know!
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And the sad fact is that as we age, our taste buds age too, and our ability to discriminate and appreciate subtle flavors decreases. It gripes me that 30 years ago when I could appreciate the finer points of $50 wine, I could not afford it. Now that I can afford it ... well, you know!
I'm not so sure about faded buds, but certain about jaded ones.
When I could afford those wines I refused to buy them, and now, not only would I still refuse to buy them, but even if they came free I couldn't have more than one glass a day. As anyone knows, the more glasses of one you sample then the better it gets, right until you hit the limit, the cut-off point induced by nature.
My own experience has broken the wine thing down to this: there is good wine and there is bad wine, which, in practice, means wine that you like and that which you do not like. In that respect it resembles cameras.
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... Check the hilarious "Microplastics" thread. There are posters on that thread who individually are going to give up plastics in order to save the planet. You probably could follow the same logic with regard to extinction in order to begin the cleanup of the planet and "make a better world for the rest of living species." You could demonstrate beyond a doubt that you're not part of the selfishness that rules the world.
Please show us how those who would like to limit plastic trash are more selfish than the plastics industry who resist at every turn limits on single-use "disposable" plastic items.
Also, please show us how concern for our environment is "hilarious".
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And the sad fact is that as we age, our taste buds age too, and our ability to discriminate and appreciate subtle flavors decreases. It gripes me that 30 years ago when I could appreciate the finer points of $50 wine, I could not afford it. Now that I can afford it ... well, you know!
Youth is wasted on the young, Peter. Or in French, si jeunesse savait, si vieillesse pouvait.
There are good arguments that the dangers of neonicotenoids are very much overstated and that their use in the wild is vastly different from the environment used in laboratory-based tests. It was the subject of a good deal of written debate a while ago, when the UK ban was introduced. I don't purport to be able to reach a conclusion, but it's misleading to suggest that there's a universal consensus.
See this (http://www.rationaloptimist.com/blog/bad-for-bees/), for example. From his other stuff (he has a weekly column in The Times), Ridley is a sensible chap.
Jeremy
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Thank you, Jeremy!
I guess the modern era of nanosecond-attention span induced knee-jerk reaction that goes like this: European Union (authority!) bans pesticides (horror!) to save bees (cute!). Who wouldn't agree with that?
And once again the law of unintended consequences and the related miopia of isolating issues from their context and environment.
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Please show us how those who would like to limit plastic trash are more selfish than the plastics industry who resist at every turn limits on single-use "disposable" plastic items.
Also, please show us how concern for our environment is "hilarious".
Hi Peter,
First, your unsupported assertion that the "selfish" plastic industry "resists at every turn" limits on single-use" disposable plastic items" may be true, but just saying it doesn't make it true. When you make a statement like that you need to support it with at least some facts or it drifts off into the nether regions of pure speculation. That kind of thing becomes laughable to anyone equipped to think.
And I don't think your concern for "our environment" (surprised you didn't say "the planet") is hilarious. What I think is hilarious is the idea that if you abstain from using plastic you're actually making a noticeable contribution to cleaning up the planet. Oh, it may make you feel good about yourself. After all, you won't be contributing to the degradation of the planet. But it's unlikely your good-feeling plastic abstention is going to make any noticeable dent in the problem.
On the other hand you might start a Plastics Anonymous group that can get together and make speeches about their temptation to use plastics and subsequent abstention. You'll need councilors who'll keep members in line, and all that stuff.
But even that isn't going to solve the problem. If somebody in China starts a Plastics Anonymous group the whole bunch will be thrown into the hoosegow unless the "leadership" is pushing the idea. And they won't be.
I'd love to see dumping any kind of trash into the ocean stopped cold, but it probably ain't gonna happen in our lifetimes.
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I'm not talking skill though. I'm talking going to the store, buying some produce and just eating it.
For some reason we insist on using so much fertilizers here, that the produce grows bigger then it naturally does. Sure, you get more yield, but the flavor is so bland.
We bought a quart of strawberries in France that were less then half the size they are here, but the flavor was so much better.
When we came here to live, '81, we used to buy all our vegetables and fruit in the farmers' market, usually a Sunday event in our town. Some years later, another market was held on Wednesdays, in the sister town just about six clicks away. The same stalls mostly served both venues. My wife concluded that the stuff was more fresh on Sundays, so that's where we continued to shop. Of course, most of the produce was only what was in season, especially the fruit. Now, everything is always available, which means forced, under plastic, from the Spanish mainland, or imported, or local and just frozen and the first casualty is flavour. Apples have none at all, and strawberries are often huge, hard and just like water to the taste buds. It's all gone, lost to mechanised production and the benefits of Monsanto or whoever supplies the stuff that's sprayed onto everything in the name of gigantism which has come to signal better bargain!
Even red peppers have not been saved: some have started to be much larger and without flavour, the insides with masses of white mush growing on the struts. Yuck! One good thing about eating out is that one no longer sees this mess.
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Hi Peter,
First, your unsupported assertion that the "selfish" plastic industry "resists at every turn" limits on single-use" disposable plastic items" may be true, but just saying it doesn't make it true. When you make a statement like that you need to support it with at least some facts or it drifts off into the nether regions of pure speculation. That kind of thing becomes laughable to anyone equipped to think.
I'm quite well equipped to think, thank you. I'm also quite well equipped to look things up. This took me about five seconds of search time:
https://www.sciencemi.org/politics/plastic-lobbyists-prevent-reducing-pollution/
https://www.alternet.org/environment/plastic-bag-lobby
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/laura-turner-seydel/powerful-lobbying-groups-want-to-make-sure-you-keep-using-plastic-bags_b_8307416.html
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/plastic-bag-ban-legal-victoria-1.4510936
Oh, and by the way, none of your recent assertions have been backed up with links of any kind.
ie pot/kettle.
What I think is hilarious is the idea that if you abstain from using plastic you're actually making a noticeable contribution to cleaning up the planet.
I've not seen a single reference in my posts to "abstaining" from plastics. That would be not only unwise, but impossible. I stated earlier that plastics are beneficial, even necessary today. What I'm decrying (at the risk of repeating repeating repeating myself) is the use of disposable, single-use plastic items. Note: "disposable" is in italics, just in case you missed that.
Oh, it may make you feel good about yourself. After all, you won't be contributing to the degradation of the planet. But it's unlikely your good-feeling plastic abstention is going to make any noticeable dent in the problem.
No? But what if a few million of us did? Would that help? How about a few hundred million?
Thank you for your unsubstantiated assertion that the only reason I decry single-use plastic items is because it makes me "feel good about myself". It reveals your worldview quite clearly.
On the other hand you might start a Plastics Anonymous group that can get together and make speeches about their temptation to use plastics and subsequent abstention. You'll need councilors who'll keep members in line, and all that stuff.
Very helpful to the discussion. Thank you for that, too.
I'd love to see dumping any kind of trash into the ocean stopped cold, but it probably ain't gonna happen in our lifetimes.
Nope. You're right. Not in our lifetimes. But we're old. The youth will save our sorry asses, despite myopic, selfish "it's just business" attitudes.
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There are good arguments that the dangers of neonicotenoids are very much overstated and that their use in the wild is vastly different from the environment used in laboratory-based tests. It was the subject of a good deal of written debate a while ago, when the UK ban was introduced. I don't purport to be able to reach a conclusion, but it's misleading to suggest that there's a universal consensus.
See this (http://www.rationaloptimist.com/blog/bad-for-bees/), for example. From his other stuff (he has a weekly column in The Times), Ridley is a sensible chap.
Jeremy
OTH, other information suggests that the major issue with these pesticides is in fact not honey bees, but other insects that might be in the field. A paper looking at this subject concluded: “ these systemic insecticides may also be harmful to natural enemies, including predators and parasitoids. Predatory insects and mites may be adversely affected by neonicotinoid systemic insecticides when they: (1) feed on pollen, nectar or plant tissue contaminated with the active ingredient; (2) consume the active ingredient of neonicotinoid insecticides while ingesting plant fluids; (3) feed on hosts (prey) that have consumed leaves contaminated with the active ingredient. Parasitoids may be affected negatively by neonicotinoid insecticides because foliar, drench or granular applications may decrease host population levels so that there are not enough hosts to attack and thus sustain parasitoid populations.”
Most probably, other pesticides play also a role. Cuba which has no money for pesticides, has one of the healthiest bee populations, although I also heard some unconfirmed rumors from a local beekeper that lately (possibly due to the recent anti-Zika spraying), bees were dying there, too. Anyway, the Cuban organic honey is still a highly sought commodity and 4th most important export product for Cuba.
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OTH, other information suggests that the major issue with these pesticides is in fact not honey bees, but other insects that might be in the field.
But that's not the title you chose for the thread, is it?
I guess the modern era of nanosecond-attention span induced knee-jerk reaction that goes like this: European Union (authority!) bans pesticides (horror!) to save bees (cute!). Who wouldn't agree with that?
Hmm. See above.
Jeremy
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But that's not the title you chose for the thread, is it?
Jeremy
That's true, Jeremy. More often than not, these threads lead to previously unintended directions (which makes it sometimes more interesting).
What I meant, was that all pesticides create direct and indirect harm. Also my bee and flower picture in the OP, although not great photographically, was captioned with the words that the flower and bee were captured in a pristine natural area (free of any pesticides). While on that subject, it always seemed to me (and it might be only my imagination), that when I see and hear the bees buzzing around the wildflowers in the remote fields and meadows they seem to be happier, faster and louder than in the city parks. Or maybe it's me who is happier in that environment.
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Not all bees are good for the environment they are in.
http://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2012/09/18/3592865.htm
Cheers,
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Ditto for "African" killer bees.
https://www.accuweather.com/en/weather-news/nonnative-bee-invasion-in-us-l/16239881
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The more important question, of course, is this: Which will benefit or suffer more from the bee-killing pesticide ban, Nikon, Canon, Sony or Fuji? 8)
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Oh, and by the way, none of your recent assertions have been backed up with links of any kind.
ie pot/kettle.
What assertions are those, Peter?
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The more important question, of course, is this: Which will benefit or suffer more from the bee-killing pesticide ban, Nikon, Canon, Sony or Fuji? 8)
Probably none: they are already, with a little added incest, screwing each other perfectly well without any help from the birds and bees.
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What assertions are those, Peter?
Let's start with your statement that an asteroid strike is a greater threat to humanity than plastics pollution.
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Let's start with your statement that an asteroid strike is a greater threat to humanity than plastics pollution.
That one really got you, eh Peter. Here's one reference to the history of asteroid strikes on the earth. https://whyfiles.org/106asteroid/2.html. There's a whole procession of them on Google if you want to take the trouble. Took me a long time to find your reference to my post way back at the beginning of the Microplastics thread -- not even in this thread. What I actually said was:
"I'm old enough to have seen this kind of doomsday crap over and over and over. We're still here. We'll probably still be here for a long time to come. A much more serious threat is something like an asteroid strike. But that's not a concern of left-wing politics, so nobody's hiding under the bed because of it."
I'll stand by what I said, and I'll duck for the asteroid strike while you're waiting for plastics to shut down the planet.
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All of you would do well to read Margaret Atwood's 'Oryx and Crake' trilogy rather than posting ripostes on this topic. You might gain a better appreciation for nature's delicate balance.
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All of you would do well to read Margaret Atwood's 'Oryx and Crake' trilogy rather than posting ripostes on this topic. You might gain a better appreciation for nature's delicate balance.
Alan, man learns a lot about delicate natural balance by the changing functional abilities of the bits he often keeps in his pants. It's all a delicate balance, a dance even of mood, situation and peace of mind or good food, or even level of alcohol in his poor old battered system; why would one expect less/more of the other beasties in nature?
Rob
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European Union countries voted on Friday in favour of a near-total ban on neonicotinoid insecticides which are blamed for an alarming collapse in bee populations
+1
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If the environment is of minimal Interest to one, then think of it this way: should we lose all the birds and the bees, parents would then run out of all extended similies through which to educate their children on the origin and perpetuation of their own species.
A fate wose than death, already!
;-)
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Neonic insecticides (neonicotinoids), are used worldwide on over 140 different agricultural crops. They attack the central nervous system of insects, causing overstimulation of their nerve cells, paralysis and death. Neonics dissolve in water contaminating also streams, ponds, and wetlands.
America’s agricultural landscape is now 48 times more toxic to honeybees, and likely other insects, than it was 25 years ago, almost entirely due to widespread use of so-called neonicotinoid pesticides, according to a new study published today in the journal PLOS One.
https://www.organicconsumers.org/news/insect-apocalypse-us-driven-by-increase-in-pesticides?fbclid=IwAR2SOsCunIC7FWY1CfnP-D7tzOa0Ab65ed8aFFcpguI4ez1_pwiG-IWK3tI