Luminous Landscape Forum
The Art of Photography => The Coffee Corner => Topic started by: LesPalenik on April 24, 2018, 02:45:55 pm
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Actually, in all oceans by now. Ice cores gathered across the Arctic Ocean reveal microplastics at concentrations two to three times higher than previously recorded.
As sea ice melts with climate change, the plastic will be released back into the water, with unknown effects on wildlife. Traces of 17 different types of plastic were found in frozen seawater.
Estimates suggest about eight million tonnes of plastic move from the land into the ocean every year, with some finding its way into remote areas, such as the Polar Regions and the deep ocean floor.
http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-43879389
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Oh dear! It means the end of the world is upon us.
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now we all understand why people who were delivering newspapers around 1939/1940 do not care ... just like people can't vote till certain age, they shall lose the right after certain age too...
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Oh dear! It means the end of the world is upon us.
Florida is better off than the Arctic ocean. In the warmer waters it takes less time for plastics to completely disintegrate. Mere 50 years for a styrofoam cup and 450 years for a "disposable" plastic water bottle.
here is a frightening NBC video from Lake Michigan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBuqlQpDa8A
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Russ has plenty of space at his place based on his photos - I'm sure he'll be fine to have it all stored there since he clearly doesn't perceive it to be a problem.
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Phil, I'm old enough to have seen this kind of doomsday crap over and over and over. We're still here. We'll probably still be here for a long time to come. A much more serious threat is something like an asteroid strike. But that's not a concern of left-wing politics, so nobody's hiding under the bed because of it.
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Phil, I'm old enough to have seen this kind of doomsday crap over and over and over. We're still here. We'll probably still be here for a long time to come. A much more serious threat is something like an asteroid strike. But that's not a concern of left-wing politics, so nobody's hiding under the bed because of it.
Sigh.
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Sigh.
Double sigh
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
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Double sigh
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Triple sigh. Another fact denier.
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Phil, I'm old enough to have seen this kind of doomsday crap over and over and over. We're still here. We'll probably still be here for a long time to come. A much more serious threat is something like an asteroid strike. But that's not a concern of left-wing politics, so nobody's hiding under the bed because of it.
I'd wager that the probability of the human race being smothered by plastics (micro or larger variety) is higher than by an asteroid strike.
Although most lakes and rivers in Canada are still relatively clean, they are not quite as pristine as in the past. And when it comes to Florida public beaches, they are mostly very clean, but that's due mainly to the cleaning crews every morning.
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Phil, I'm old enough to have seen this kind of doomsday crap over and over and over. We're still here. We'll probably still be here for a long time to come. A much more serious threat is something like an asteroid strike. But that's not a concern of left-wing politics, so nobody's hiding under the bed because of it.
And I'm old enough to recognise people talking crap over and over and over.
Let's be clear. Being old isn't a qualification. It's an opportunity. Squandering it by ignoring things that don't fit your paradigm just adds to the crap.
I'm also young enough to realise that I need somewhere to live for the next 4 decades, and my neices and nephews for another couple beyond that. Do you want to live in a pile of crap? Go right ahead. I don't.
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(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f5/9f/e2/f59fe21e8a71f20b27fbbd5d299664cb.jpg)
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Your image, Peter? One picture worth thousands words.
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Hard to know where to begin really.
It's all very well for we elderly privileged to sneer at that which won't affect them, but meanwhile in the rest of the world many folks wish to exercise a little caution and avoid feeding plastic to their children or to pregnant women. And not just because of endocrine disruptors.
Even sea salt is now full of the bloody stuff, for heaven's sake.
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Not to worry, when the ice melts we'll have plastic bottle islands (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouTY9vDHGWE) for the penguins to live on.
Cheers,
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My camera club used to provide free water in plastic bottles at the meetings. With over 100 members at the meetings, the annual consumption ran in excess of 1,000 bottles.
After two of our members came back from Antarctica, they asked the club management to stop this practice. Now it's been a year since that change, and nobody is missing the bottles.
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I'm ROTFL at the predictability of what I see here.
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I'm ROTFL at the predictability of what I see here.
ROTFL, you calling others predictable?
Come on Russ, there must be someone caring about future generations hiding behind your pose. (http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/Smileys/default/sad.gif)
In your lifetime, you haven't had enough exposure to microplastics to drastically affect your health, but younger generations will.
It's in their food, their water, and in their air (think sea salt, particulate matter).
Breathing frequency is also much higher in younger people.
Cheers,
Bart
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I'm ROTFL at the predictability of what I see here.
Yes, I will predictably call BS when I see it.
I think you need to take a selfie, actually, Russ.
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Keep making my day, guys.
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Keep making my day, guys.
Sigh.
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Your image, Peter? One picture worth thousands words.
I wish. One of the most powerful images I’ve ever seen. And I’m nearly as old as RSL.
Google Images sourced.
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I wish. One of the most powerful images I’ve ever seen. And I’m nearly as old as RSL.
Google Images sourced.
When Trump sees that picture he will retweet it and relocate all plastic pollution deniers to those plastic islands. As he often says, most people don't know about these things.
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Some facts that old fact denier's who seem like a shoe-in for the next EPA chief will ignore but the rest of us can and should examine.
First, how long it takes for these items to decompose.
Styrofoam cup: 50 years
Baby diaper: 450 years
Plastic bottle: 450 years
Plastic straw: 450 years
And:
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Not to worry, when the ice melts we'll have plastic bottle islands (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouTY9vDHGWE) for the penguins to live on.
Cheers,
Now I can see that post is sarcasm..... :)
Jim
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I'm ROTFL at the predictability of what I see here.
Predictability = pre-judging = prejudice.
QED
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Phil, I'm old enough to have seen this kind of doomsday crap over and over and over. We're still here. We'll probably still be here for a long time to come. A much more serious threat is something like an asteroid strike. But that's not a concern of left-wing politics, so nobody's hiding under the bed because of it.
Russ - even though I don't always agree with you - especially on guns....... I do generally respect your position.
Seriously though, the posts you have made in this thread seem to indicate we are poles apart. An asteroid strike is very unlikely in our lifetimes, or that of our children and grandchildren. Yes the world will end eventually. Trump, Putin or Kim might decide to start a nuclear war which will certainly put plastic into perspective.
But in a relatively short time mankind has turned our world into a rubbish dump (garbage to you Americans), and that actually is something you and I can do something about. If left wing politics is about the environment and right wing is about making a quick buck whatever the environmental impact, then I know which way I'm going.... WTF has it got to do with left and right anyway, are the right wing concerned about asteroid strikes more than the left? I'm not hiding under the bed, but if you think hiding under a bed will save anyone from an asteroid strike then by all means do. I'm not frightened by plastic any more than I'm frightened by a person sat near me smoking. I just don't want to be ingesting plastic or smoke, and I don't see why other living creatures should either.
Fortunately I can safely bet that my life is much more likely to be harmed by plastic in the environment than by somebody with a gun. I think probably the same applies to your children and their children too.
Jim
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Predictability = pre-judging = prejudice.
QED
AND the results of his confirmation bias:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
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...Fortunately I can safely bet that my life is much more likely to be harmed by plastic in the environment than by somebody with a gun...
Precisely. Or an asteroid strike.
Plastic pollution is harmful, evident, increasing, and apparently inevitable given the current de-regulatory environment.
An asteroid strike is a vanishingly small possibility and impossible to prevent by any means, let alone regulation.
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Well I think we certainly should pass a law against an asteroid impacting earth. And I think we should make the penalty severe enough that any asteroid would think twice before heading our way.
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No need to pray or pass asteroid laws. According to NASA, no large object is likely to strike the Earth any time in the next several hundred years.
However, in the next decade there is a high probability of killing a lot of marine life and tourism business with the rapidly increasing plastic pollution.
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Well I think we certainly should pass a law against an asteroid impacting earth. And I think we should make the penalty severe enough that any asteroid would think twice before heading our way.
Some cling to the illusion that a Wall solves such issues ... (http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/Smileys/default/cheesy.gif)
Cheers,
Bart
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Some cling to the illusion that a Wall solves such issues ... (http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/Smileys/default/cheesy.gif)
Cheers,
Bart
or dispatching a hundred Tomahawks against it.
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You'd think reading Russ's responses that he is a 13 year old kid enjoying the spotlight, then you see his avatar.... Yikes
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Okay guys, now I've heard a whole string of "Ain't it awfuls." What do you propose to do about it? Specifically? Taking into account the fact that any law passed by our absurd "United Nations" will either excuse China and other high volume dumpers or be ignored by them? Any of you familiar with the effectiveness of the League of Nations during the years leading up to WW II?
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You can start by sending a letter to your governor requesting a ban of plastic bags and other plastic packaging. Rwanda has already done so, the country has banned the use of plastic bags.
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I'm sure that'll stop the whole thing cold, Les.
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Not completely, but it's a good start. One small step for man, one giant leap for mankind.
I presume, you already reduced your personal plastic footprint.
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Okay guys, now I've heard a whole string of "Ain't it awfuls." What do you propose to do about it? Specifically?
It's rather easy to reduce your plastic consumption and no one should propose we eliminate plastic entirely. There's little reason for anyone other than the impaired and perhaps very old posters from ever needing a plastic straw! You can use glass rather than plastic containers. You can use compostable products and here's a web site that has a number of excellent products (yes, I've purchased many): http://worldcentric.org (http://worldcentric.org)
Take your own water in plastic bottle?
Use glass or metal container; your health may depend on it!
Bring your own container for take-out or restaurant doggy-bag.
Pack your lunch in reusable containers and bags.
Use fresh fruits and veggies instead of products that come in single serving cups/bags.
You can actually give a crap about the condition of the planet and those who presumably will occupy it after you're dead and gone!
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Not completely, but it's a good start. I presume you are already reducing your personal plastic footprint.
Exactly, not waiting for others to solve your problems, or the problems you cause others, is a good start.
In my country, we are also expanding the system of (money) deposits on plastic bottles and alumin(i)um cans, which helps to increase the amount that is returned for recycling. Free bags with each delivery are no longer allowed, but re-usable bags and containers are encouraged. The use of Plastic straws being prohibited. We separate our garbage (paper, glass, plastics, chemicals, electronics, vegetable and garden waste, other) before collection. Small steps in the right direction, but a lot more must be done.
Industry is also encouraged to use less packaging if possible. Naming and shaming if need be.
A lot of things can be done to reduce the problem, but totally solving it will be an illusion. There will always be those misfits that ruin it for the others...
Cheers,
Bart
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Okay, guys. Surely not getting water in plastic and not using plastic bags when I'm at the grocery store will stop the whole thing in its tracks and solve the problem. The Chinese immediately will stop using plastic too. No doubt about it! And it's such a simple solution.
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Okay, guys. Surely not getting water in plastic and not using plastic bags when I'm at the grocery store will stop the whole thing in its tracks and solve the problem. The Chinese immediately will stop using plastic too. No doubt about it! And it's such a simple solution.
The absurd is the last refuge of a pundit without an argument!
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Okay Andrew. What's your argument? Tell me how you plan to bring this to a screeching halt.
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A suggestion: stop going to extremes, RSL. It weakens your already weak position.
Nobody has suggested that we can instantly "bring this thing to a screeching halt". We can, however, apply the brakes, even gently.
It's apparent by the results we've seen so far that the only effective beginning is regulation. It works.
I know, I know. Regulation is a dirty word in the current political environment, but unless you can suggest something else that actually works, then we will see continued, ever-increasing plastics pollution.
The plastic industry fights tooth and nail against regulation. Why is that?
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Okay Andrew. What's your argument? Tell me how you plan to bring this to a screeching halt.
More absurdly. I already told you some steps you and other can take. No one has suggested anything we do will bring this to a screeching halt. You're simply both a fact denier and someone who insists on not taking any active steps. So what's the point of continuing other than point out your inability to accept facts and take any degree of responsibility. You don't give a damn, right?
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A suggestion: stop going to extremes, RSL. It weakens your already weak position.
+1. His position is blatantly silly.
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Tell me how you plan to bring this to a screeching halt.
here's a straightforward way to stem the problem. Vero Beach resident Megan Hoots is working to change that. The 30-year-old is one of the people behind Plastic Free Florida, which is pushing for limits on single-use plastics, including shopping bags and straws.
https://www.tallahassee.com/story/opinion/2018/04/24/samples-its-time-dump-floridas-policy-plastic-bags/545044002/
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OMG. RSL is from FLA.
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here's a straightforward way to stem the problem. Vero Beach resident Megan Hoots is working to change that. The 30-year-old is one of the people behind Plastic Free Florida, which is pushing for limits on single-use plastics, including shopping bags and straws.
https://www.tallahassee.com/story/opinion/2018/04/24/samples-its-time-dump-floridas-policy-plastic-bags/545044002/
Yes, it's always best to prevent the stuff from getting into the environment, but then there's also the junk already out there and the amount is growing. So some curative solutions are also needed, like this innovative one: https://www.theoceancleanup.com/
Working at it from both ends, by prevention and cure, should move us towards an improved situation.
Lack of intelligent action rarely helps to solve things ...
Cheers,
Bart
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Wonderful solution. How do you plan to get outfits like China and, say, Russia to join in this effort? You guys sound like Californians.
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Keep making my day, guys.
You forgot to call us punks, Russ.
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In my country, we are also expanding the system of (money) deposits on plastic bottles and alumin(i)um cans, which helps to increase the amount that is returned for recycling. Free bags with each delivery are no longer allowed, but re-usable bags and containers are encouraged. The use of Plastic straws being prohibited. We separate our garbage (paper, glass, plastics, chemicals, electronics, vegetable and garden waste, other) before collection. Small steps in the right direction, but a lot more must be done.
Industry is also encouraged to use less packaging if possible. Naming and shaming if need be.
A lot of things can be done to reduce the problem, but totally solving it will be an illusion. There will always be those misfits that ruin it for the others...
Cheers,
Bart
It looks like Netherlands is on the forefront of waste reduction. Not only in percentage of recycled materials, but also in the separation and more efficient material recycling.
Here in Ontario, we have curbside recycling pickup, but only from the individual houses, not from the apartment buildings where now a significant portion of population resides (and pollutes).
Another problem we have, is that the recycling materials are not separated at the pickup time, they are all thrown into the truck and mixed up, so that the most valuable component, the paper is degraded by the glass shards and hard plastics (actually the most valuable components are the aluminum cans, but their proportion is relatively small compared to the rest and they can be relatively easily separated). For a little bit more money and efort, the separation of paper and plastics would yield a more recyclable and higher quality content, but the city politicians are ignorant of these facts and for now they can claim that something is being done.
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Wonderful solution. How do you plan to get outfits like China and, say, Russia to join in this effort? You guys sound like Californians.
So with your flawed logic, both countries, every country has to pitch in or we just throw up our hands and do nothing. Your augments if I can be so kind, become more absurd as you post.
Every hear the old saying: you're either on the bus or you're not? You seem like a cheerleader for apathy. Forgive the rest of us for not joining in.
I suppose you have no children or grand children who will inherit what you've done here. Ask me the same question.
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Wonderful solution. How do you plan to get outfits like China and, say, Russia to join in this effort? You guys sound like Californians.
The Russians have nothing to do with it. But the Chinese do.
There are two issues here I think.
The first is taking plastic out of the diet of children. There is a lot an individual can do about that. Begin with no sea salt, no saltwater fish and no plastic bottles.
The second issue is environmental pollution. With this it's a mixed bag. Most of us would be dead within a few days if we completely got rid of plastics. No power or water or transport to begin with. You may think avoiding plastic bags is pissing in the wind and there is an element of truth in that, but in my country individual action has from time to time made a difference.
Ocean pollution is another matter. Ninety percent of all the plastic in the world's oceans comes from just 10 rivers: The Yangtze, the Indus, Yellow River, Hai River, the Nile, the Ganges, Pearl River, Amur River, the Niger, and the Mekong in that order.
You'll note the over representation of China. What can you do about that? Put your thinking cap on Russ. Help with the cooking or get out of the kitchen.
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It looks like Netherlands is on the forefront of waste reduction. Not only in percentage of recycled materials, but also in the separation and more efficient material recycling.
Don't know if that's the case with everything, but we do live with many people on a relatively small patch of ground (a large part of which is below the sea surface), so we will be facing our own waste problem pretty fast unless we get active in preventing and solving it ourselves. That also means that there is more money to be made outside our own borders than within, hence our proactive international problemsolving orientation.
Not all is rosy though, a lot remains to be done and improved, so cooperation with others and innovation are key.
Cheers,
Bart
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Can't we send boats with fishing nets to collect the floating garbage? This is a serious question, no sarcasm, politics or anything else intended.
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Can't we send boats with fishing nets to collect the floating garbage? This is a serious question, no sarcasm, politics or anything else intended.
Depending on who's data you look into, the figures I've seen are there is 8.3 billion tons of plastic that would have to be collected so, that's a LOT to collect.
Notice the percentage of plastic that is not recycled or dealt with:
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Slobodan, I think that in the future the cleanup by boats and nets will be one part of solution, especially around the heavily populated areas.
Also, many plastic and metal fragments sink to the bottom and choke all kinds of life on the ocean floor.
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The next question is, we collect it, then what do we do with it?
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China has just changed its recycling policy, the results will be significant.
"Europe has long prided itself on being an environmental leader — a champion of “the circular economy,” in which energy and resources are carefully husbanded, reused and recycled.
The truth is that much of its green success has relied on exporting its trash elsewhere.
Until the beginning of this year, the Continent kept itself clean by sending millions of tons of paper, cardboard, plastics and textiles on cargo ships over the horizon to China.
Of the 56.4 million tons of paper EU citizens threw away in 2016, some 8 million ended up in China, purchased by recycling centers that turn it into cardboard and send it back to Europe as packaging for Chinese exports. That same year, the EU collected 8.4 million tons of plastic waste, and sent 1.6 million tons to China."
Full story here (https://www.politico.eu/article/europe-recycling-china-trash-ban-forces-europe-to-confront-its-waste-problem/).
Much of Australia's recyling is sent to China so we are in the same boat.
Cheers,
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Wonderful solution. How do you plan to get outfits like China and, say, Russia to join in this effort? You guys sound like Californians.
Comments like that leave me speechless.
Maybe that's a good thing...
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Yes, Peter. That's a good thing.
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Can't we send boats with fishing nets to collect the floating garbage? This is a serious question, no sarcasm, politics or anything else intended.
I think that this can be done - certainly we see ships and boats being used for numerous maritime environmental issues. I suspect, and I'm in the middle of writing a paper on international business so I don't have time to research this right now beyond this quick procrastination, that part of the issue is finding it reliability - it's hard to track when it's sitting under the water and the oceans are big, and there's the underlying cost and then the processing after recovery. There are some technologies around this idea, though, including this one http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-12-20/seabin-designed-by-australian-surfers-to-start-cleaning-up-ocean/7044174 but the scale doesn't seem to be right as a single solution.
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If we stop using plastic bags and use paper bags instead, isn't that going to cut even more trees?
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Yes, Peter. That's a good thing.
Maybe you should give it a try if it's such a good thing.... ::)
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If we stop using plastic bags and use paper bags instead, isn't that going to cut even more trees?
Perhaps but that's renewable, far more recyclable, far easier to and faster to decompose etc.
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"Across the U.S., communities that relied on recycling to divert waste away from bloated landfills are now being forced to rethink how they deal with trash. Americans shipped more than US$5.6 billion of scrap commodities like plastic and metal to China last year, according to the Institute for Scrap Recycling Industries. About half of what gets collected by U.S. recyclers is paper, which accounted for 13.2 million tons of scrap exports."
Yep, the good times are over. China has given up on four decades of recycling the world's waste and is now working on reducing its very high pollution levels. The sh*t is about to hit the fan. Damn you selfish commie b*stards, expecting the western world to clean up it's own mess.
Cheers,
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Maybe you should give it a try if it's such a good thing.... ::)
That was one of the most constructive coments today. OTH, without Russ, we wouldn't get so many interesting answers and useful links.
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Perhaps but that's renewable, far more recyclable, far easier to and faster to decompose etc.
Depends on the scale of the problem, recyclable chopsticks China:
"China uses 20 million trees each year to feed the country's disposable chopstick habit, Bo Guangxin, the head of a major forestry group, told Chinese parliamentarians on Friday according to Chinese state media. At 4,000 chopsticks per tree, that's roughly 80 billion chopsticks per year -- far more than the 57 billion estimated by the country's national forest bureau."
Scary, huh…
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Disposable chopsticks; there is a major part of the problem. How many is us only eat with disposable (worse plastic) utensils?
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That was one of the most constructive coments today. OTH, without Russ, we wouldn't get so many interesting answers and useful links.
Right wing trolls expose the truth from all the dissent they enable.
They don't realize this yet.
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If we stop using plastic bags and use paper bags instead, isn't that going to cut even more trees?
This is a deeper question than it may appear on the surface.
You could send the paper manufacture off to a third world country and have them decimate their forests and fill their waterways with dioxins and other organochlorines. Then move on to the next candidate for development.
Or you could establish a renewable forest industry on land that may be marginal for existing farming. Then local paper mills using chlorine-free bleaching. The benefits are jobs, an enlarged tax base, an export industry and carbon credits if they still exist.
I doubt the second option would happen without an interventionist government. You see where this is leading...
Paper is not 100% free of environmental cost, but at least you can put the waste in your fireplace or send it off to be turned into packaging.
OT, wood is an underrated resource. Here in NZ we were no better than anyone else in decimating our native forests. But the renewable plantings are being used for things like laminated structural beams in earthquake zones to replace steel in multi-storey buildings, and the waste turned in to pellets for heating. Then end result is better quality stuff and multiple income streams for the suppliers and manufacturers. Again, the tax base gets enlarged.
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Disposable chopsticks; there is a major part of the problem....
Yes. Solution? Plastic ones! ;)
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Yes. Solution? Plastic ones! ;)
Like straws, reusable ones (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00O92HN3C/ref=asc_df_B00O92HN3C5452517/?tag=hyprod-20&creative=395033&creativeASIN=B00O92HN3C&linkCode=df0&hvadid=198057711065&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=3063176590120973868&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9030507&hvtargid=pla-318192836786).
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Right wing trolls expose the truth from all the dissent they enable.
They don't realize this yet.
What exactly was "right-wing" or trolling in what Russ was saying? He simply pointed out the elephant in the room in this debate, which then David referenced as 90% of ocean plastic pollution coming from China and several other developing, Asian and African countries. So, our valiant and noble effort to stop using plastic bags in supermarkets and plastic water bottles is but a drop in the ocean (pardon the pun). Doesn't solve the problem, but makes us feel good like we are doing something. Replacing plastic with paper causes another problem, deforestation.
In other words, there is no easy solution, and going for the naive, feel-good ones only distracts from searching for lasting solutions. Exposing the feel-good ones as such is not right wing or trolling.
Finding better ways to collect, recycle, or destroy plastic is the only solution. Yes, it helps to reduce the use of plastic in the future, but the existing quantities are so huge that it dwarfs any future savings. We ain't gonna stop using plastic any time soon, simply not realistic.
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Like straws, reusable ones (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00O92HN3C/ref=asc_df_B00O92HN3C5452517/?tag=hyprod-20&creative=395033&creativeASIN=B00O92HN3C&linkCode=df0&hvadid=198057711065&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=3063176590120973868&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9030507&hvtargid=pla-318192836786).
I can already see a billion Chinese carrying their metal chopsticks everywhere they go.
Cafeteria of one of the major American corporations I worked for replaced some months ago metal cutlery with plastic ones. There were even signes notifying us how it is actually more environmentally friendly. Something about water, electricity, and detergents needed to wash the metal ones. I do not know how much truth is in that, but would be interesting to hear from some of you who know more about the issue.
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I can already see a billion Chinese carrying their metal chopsticks everywhere they go.
I don't think you really can! Why can't they, why couldn’t they be made of Plastic but reused like so many of the rest of the world does with their utensils? I don't know why I'm asking you such simple questions, or why I believed what you wrote below was to be taken seriously:
This is a serious question, no sarcasm, politics or anything else intended.
I have to wonder if you eat daily with disposable utensils or have any plastic product you own that isn't a one use, disposable product, but your reply would probably be filled with non serious answers, sarcasm, perhaps politics among anything else.
Cafeteria of one of the major American corporations I worked for replaced some months ago metal cutlery with plastic ones
And if the plastic can be reused over and over again, so what?
There were even signes notifying us how it is actually more environmentally friendly. Something about water, electricity, and detergents needed to wash the metal ones.
If one use products, and you believed that, you were well fooled!
I do not know how much truth is in that, but would be interesting to hear from some of you who know more about the issue.[/quote]
Enough said!
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In other words, there is no easy solution, and going for the naive, feel-good ones only distracts from searching for lasting solutions.
There's nothing hard, naive or simply feel good about reusing, recycling and rejecting (the later being items like one use plastic straws as an example) to do your part to aid the problem! All are lasting solutions; you should consider trying them before knocking those of us that do.
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Are you seriously suggesting that plastic utensils can be, should be, and are reused in restaurants!?
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Are you seriously suggesting that plastic utensils can be, should be, and are reused in restaurants!?
I’m suggesting you learn to reuse, recycle, reduce. Think!
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I once decided to wash plastic utensils in the dishwasher. One of them broke in half (as plastic does) and clogged the dishwasher. The cost of repair? Several hundred dollars. Never again. Speaking of (trying to be) socially liberal and fiscally conservative.
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Are you seriously suggesting that plastic utensils can be, should be, and are reused in restaurants!?
Slobodan, you must only eat Chinese takeout. Plastic chopsticks are common in all Chinese (plus other asian) restaurants except the high end ones, they are easily cleaned and last for ages, they are nothing like cheap plastic knives and forks.
The obvious solution is that you must gather friends and head for a good Dim Sum/Yum Cha restaurant as soon as possible. Have a prawn/shrimp dumpling (Har Gow) for me.
Cheers
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Hi gang,
Well, it's been a lot of fun and I've had a lot of laughs, but it's time for me to drop out of this entertaining thread. I keep thinking about the observation attributed to P.T. Barnum: "There's a sucker born every minute," which seems to fit this thread quite well. Then there's this paraphrase of Matthew 25:11: "The gullible you will always have with you. . ."
Bottom line: If not using plastic makes you feel better about yourself then by all means eschew plastic. But reports from the usual suspects that the sky is falling; the sky is falling, don't convince me that the sky is going to come crashing down.
As always has been the case, if this really is a significant problem, the world's tribes aren't going to notice it until we're in the middle of a catastrophe. So relax and wait until you've actually observed signs of the sky falling before you come to any life-changing conclusions.
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Disposable chopsticks; there is a major part of the problem. How many is us only eat with disposable (worse plastic) utensils?
Bamboo is a fastgrowing plant, not sure which material is used most commonly (and whether they are disposables or reusables), but 'chopsticks' come in all sorts of materials, and various degrees of decoration: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chopsticks
Cheers,
Bart
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The solution is obvious. Burn the stuff. The potential for recovered energy makes incineration not only the safest, but also one of the most cost-effective disposal methods.
Oops! What about the CO2 emissions! Oh my Gawd! We can't do that. I guess we'll just have to live with the plastic waste. ;D
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Of course, there's always the problem of poorly educated people (and sometimes even highly educated people) who have no respect for the environment and who mindlessly throw away emply plastic bottles, plastic bags, empty coke and beer cans, onto the beaches and the road side.
In Australia, one can be fined for littering. For example, the Environmental Protection Authority (EPA) in the state of Victoria has registered about 50,000 members of the public who are willing to report on any other members of the public who are witnessed dropping litter on the ground.
http://www.epa.vic.gov.au/get-involved/report-litter/if-youve-been-reported
"There are over 50,000 people who have registered to report litter to EPA – these reporters are members of the general public who have committed to being EPA’s eyes and ears – reporting littering from motor vehicles when they see it.
When anyone sees someone throw or drop litter from a vehicle they have the right to report the offence to EPA via our public litter reporting program. They are asked to provide a description of the vehicle that includes the vehicle registration number, colour, vehicle model and vehicle make. They also need to describe the litter and the person who threw the litter.
With this information, EPA verifies if the report is accurate by cross-checking the vehicle details with the VicRoads database – much like the police do. If the registration number and vehicle details match, an infringement will be issued to the owner of the vehicle in accordance to the EP Act."
Singapore has even more strict anti-littering laws.
https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/environment/current-measures-against-littering-in-singapore
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Russ is absolutely right. We've been hearing that the sky is falling every few years for decades and decades. And it hasn't fallen yet.
You know WHY it hasn't fallen? Because of constant, desperate, tooth and nail battles fought every inch the way by those crazy leftist loons, against naysayers like Russ. Every day, corporatist shills run off at the mouth about how the sky hasn't fallen yet, this is no different, let the free market do its thing. Every day, stupid crazy activists fight against the forces of unfettered capitalism to try to salvage a little of the planet's power to sustain life, and every day, they succeed enough to keep the corporatist shills breathing for another day.
The fact that corporations and blockheaded Imperialist ambition haven't killed us all isn't proof that these things are great, Russ. It's proof that the crazy leftists punks you so deride still have a little fight left. Our side has saved your ass before, and we're going to keep trying to save you and your children, even though we disagree with you.
You're welcome.
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Phil, I'm old enough to have seen this kind of doomsday crap over and over and over. We're still here. We'll probably still be here for a long time to come. A much more serious threat is something like an asteroid strike. But that's not a concern of left-wing politics, so nobody's hiding under the bed because of it.
It's not doomsday crap. It's not doomsday anything. But it is one more small, incremental degradation of our planet, of which there is a seemingly endless list, that drags things downward. As a related example, polyester microfibers have been found in the bodies of lobsters and other sea animals. So have an expensive lobster dinner and eat your sweater.
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As always has been the case, if this really is a significant problem, the world's tribes aren't going to notice it until we're in the middle of a catastrophe. So relax and wait until you've actually observed signs of the sky falling before you come to any life-changing conclusions.
And:Russ is absolutely right. We've been hearing that the sky is falling every few years for decades and decades. And it hasn't fallen yet.
What utter silliness; the idea if I can be so kind, that once the sky falls, there's anyone around to fix the issue or say "we told you so". Too little, too late!
And the sky can't fall. But sea level can and are raising, the ocean is filled with plastic and we humans can and are ingesting it.
Stick your head in the sand, you'll never see the sky.
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Read the whoooooole post, andrew ;)
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Read the whoooooole post, andrew ;)
Read the whooooole post amolitor in context. ;)
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The problem is not plastics. The problem is human nature. Plastics are an extremely valuable result of human ingenuity. Without them, life would be much more difficult and expensive.
However, Capitalism's profit-at-all-costs credo preys on human greed by making vast quantities of plastics disposable. Single use. The more "single uses" the plastic industry can encourage, the more money they make. That's why the plastic industry has lobbyists fighting regulation.
The consumers' human nature causes them to discard the single use items in the easiest way possible. For them. They don't need to care, so they don't.
Until we limit single use items, especially plastic ones, we'll have plastic pollution in ever-increasing quantity.
One way to clean up the existing pollution is to use Capitalism. If we make cleaning up the mess a money-maker, business will find a way to do it.
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... but it's time for me to drop out of this entertaining thread. ... "There's a sucker born every minute," ...there's this paraphrase of Matthew 25:11: the
Poor RSL. He's first announced he's bailing, then resorted to quoting scripture. In other words, he just flat ran out of arguments to validate his impossible attitude.
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The problem is not plastics. The problem is human nature. Plastics are an extremely valuable result of human ingenuity. Without them, life would be much more difficult and expensive.
Absolutely agree. It's just silly to suggest we eliminate all plastic. It's massively useful. But there are small steps each of us can take to eliminate waste and pollution with plastics or otherwise. At least those of us that feel some responsibility towards the planet and what shape we leave it in for the future.
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Bamboo is a fastgrowing plant, not sure which material is used most commonly (and whether they are disposables or reusables), but 'chopsticks' come in all sorts of materials, and various degrees of decoration: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chopsticks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chopsticks)
Cheers,
Bart
Absolutely, an amazing product: https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F978-981-10-3115-1_34
When we built our green house (LEED gold, net zero) in 2012, all the cabinets in the house were made from Bamboo because it's really beautiful, durable and sustainable. Even the bathroom sinks are made of Bamboo and have held up wonderfully over the years.
What's kind of annoying about building 'green' (http://digitaldog.net/files/welcome%20to%20the%20rodney%20green%20dog%20house%20v2-2.pdf) is how much more one has to spend for products with recycled content. But it was all worthwhile.
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... One way to clean up the existing pollution is to use Capitalism. If we make cleaning up the mess a money-maker, business will find a way to do it.
Amen to that.
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... Capitalism's profit-at-all-costs credo preys on human greed by making vast quantities of plastics disposable....
Capitalism is simply more efficient than other systems in responding to human needs.
What caused the need for disposable products in the first place? The Left. You wanted women "out of kitchen" and now we have floating plastic islands in the ocean. The law of unintended consequences strikes back. You don't want plastic bags - Amazon (the forest) suffers.
P.S. Somebody please give Andrew M. a chill pill, otherwise he'll have a heart attack reading the above
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What caused the need for disposable products in the first place? The Left*.
That’s just the rubbish of your confirmation bias:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias)
* more evidence of mistrustful and expected rhetoric:
This is a serious question, no sarcasm, politics or anything else intended.
Try to get serious.... :-X
P.S. Somebody please give Andrew M. a chill pill, otherwise he'll have a heart attack reading the above
When/IF he shows up, maybe you'll have a valid POV.
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Slobodan is referring to me, andrew. I was mean to him once and he's going to keep sniping forever on account of that.
Slobodan, your concern is appreciated, but I assure you I'm perfectly fine. It's a lovely day here in Bellingham and apart from my recalcitrant toaster which refuses to toast when there are too many crumbs in it, I am quite relaxed.
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Slobodan is referring to me, andrew. I was mean to him once and he's going to keep sniping forever on account of that.
Ah, understood now. And expected from his keyboard.
Worse than being mean to him is illustrating his untruthful writings and desire to make everything a political argument, even after stating he isn't going to. Par for the course.
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Slobodan, your concern is appreciated, but I assure you I'm perfectly fine. It's a lovely day here in Bellingham and apart from my recalcitrant toaster which refuses to toast when there are too many crumbs in it, I am quite relaxed.
Maybe he'll suggest you pop that toaster into the dishwasher ;D
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... What's kind of annoying about building 'green' (http://digitaldog.net/files/welcome%20to%20the%20rodney%20green%20dog%20house%20v2-2.pdf) is how much more one has to spend for products with recycled content. But it was all worthwhile.
Humblebragging much, Andrew?
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What caused the need for disposable products in the first place? The Left. You wanted women "out of kitchen" and now we have floating plastic islands in the ocean.
Oh, please. Show us attribution that "we" wanted women out of the kitchen, resulting in disposable items.
Lame, Slobodan. You're gonna have to do better than this if you want to keep up your reputation for thought provoking arguments.
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... desire to make everything a political argument, even after stating he isn't going to...
This is the second time you quoted me out of context. I clearly stated what my "no sarcasm, politics, or anything else intended" was referring to. To one question I asked. I never said I'd never again, god forbid, use sarcasm or discuss politics.
But seems I need to illustrate it for you:
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You don't want plastic bags - Amazon (the forest) suffers.
The Amazon suffers not from logging to make paper bags, it suffers from clear cutting to enable beef production. Hamburgers. Read "Fast Food Nation".
Besides, and fortunately, trees grow back. I live in British Columbia. While our past forest practices were short sighted in the extreme, there are currently many areas growing their third crop of harvestable timber.
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This is the second time you quoted me out of context. I clearly stated what my "no sarcasm, politics, or anything else intended" was referring to. To one question I asked. I never said I'd never again, god forbid, use sarcasm or discuss politics.
But seems I need to illustrate it for you:
Ah, just a leading question, an excuse to draw us into yet another silly political discussion that is utterly off topic. It's somewhat comforting to see how few are again taking you and this tactic seriously.
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Oh, please. Show us attribution that "we" wanted women out of the kitchen, resulting in disposable items.
Lame, Slobodan. You're gonna have to do better than this if you want to keep up your reputation for thought provoking arguments.
Thanks for the compliment.
What exactly you want me to elaborate? That the Left wanted women out of the kitchen, or that "women out of the kitchen" are causing disposable items?
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No need to elaborate on rubbish. Better, recycle, reuse, reduce: THINK! (before posting). Now we're back on topic.
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Slobodan is referring to me, andrew. I was mean to him once and he's going to keep sniping forever on account of that.
Slobodan, your concern is appreciated, but I assure you I'm perfectly fine....
Glad to hear you are fine. I was really concerned that you were already hyperventilating while penning that scathing response to Russ ;)
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You're gonna have to do better than this if you want to keep up your reputation for thought provoking arguments.
What reputation? :o
Humblebragging much, Andrew?
I put my money where my mouth is; try it someday!
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Amen to that.
"Capitalism is an economic system based upon private ownership of the means of production and their operation for profit."
Just wondering if you prefer the mobsters taking over ..., for example as in Naples:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naples_waste_management_issue
It was all about private ownership, total control over the collection and waste disposal production means, and obviously operated for profit (and then still illegally dumped) ... Sounds a lot like capitalism, doesn't it.
Cheers,
Bart
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What exactly you want me to elaborate? That the Left wanted women out of the kitchen, or that "women out of the kitchen" are causing disposable items?
Not elaborate, prove. Both. Prove that it was the "Left" that created the plastic waste problem, as you stated.
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Not elaborate, prove. Both. Prove that it was the "Left" that created the plastic waste problem, as you stated.
Don't hold your breath. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"-Carl Sagan
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I think it follows, then, that bizarre claims require bizarre evidence.
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I think it follows, then, that bizarre claims require bizarre evidence.
Let's see if we get either from you know who. :o
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Capitalism is simply more efficient than other systems in responding to human needs.
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Can't we send boats with fishing nets to collect the floating garbage? This is a serious question, no sarcasm, politics or anything else intended.
Hi Slobodan,
"Instead of going after the plastic, we let the plastic come to us, saving time, energy, and cost", those are the words of Boyan Slat, a Dutch student who came up with some brilliant ideas several years ago (around 2013, when he was 17 years of age) , which he is now (I believe now at the age of 23) implementing as the Founder and CEO of "The Ocean Cleanup" initiative.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=du5d5PUrH0I
This initiative is an excellent example of iterative engineering, which of course first requires to even consider the issue at hand being an issue worth resolving. Denial, in case Russ is still reading, is never ever a constructive attitude.
Cheers,
Bart
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Stir sticks are not essential, here is my simple and constructive method to keep the world clean.
I drink my coffee black, and eliminate not only the plastic, but also any milk and sugar. Triple benefit.
And when it comes to other liquids, I stick to wine, water and beer. No sticks or straws necessary.
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Stir sticks are not essential, here is my simple and constructive method to keep the world clean.
I drink my coffee black, and eliminate not only the plastic, but also any milk and sugar. Triple benefit.
And when it comes to other liquids, I stick to wine, water and beer. No sticks or straws necessary.
I just use a spoon and then wash it. ;D
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Bottom line: If not using plastic makes you feel better about yourself then by all means eschew plastic. But reports from the usual suspects that the sky is falling; the sky is falling, don't convince me that the sky is going to come crashing down.
The irony is that in Florida you'll get fined $100 (significantly more in Oregon) for throwing a banana peel on a grassy highway median (where it will decompose in a few days and enrich the soil), but thousands of water bottles, plastic bags, straws, cigarette butts, and other litter get through runoff and storm drains into the rivers and eventually into the oceans where they will remain for hundreds of years.
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... "Instead of going after the plastic, we let the plastic come to us, saving time, energy, and cost", those are the words of Boyan Slat, a Dutch student ...
Kudos to Boyan.
There is nothing controversial about this issue. It is trash. Trash needs to be collected and properly disposed or destroyed.
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Not elaborate, prove. Both. Prove that it was the "Left" that created the plastic waste problem, as you stated.
I thought it is obvious. In any case... With women leaving the kitchen and entering the workforce in increasing numbers, less time they have for doing the traditional thing (e.g., cooking and cleaning) the traditional way (i.e., washing and reusing). Enter disposable items. As they continue to be more engaged at work, they are then pressured (by the Left) to rise through the ranks, assume even higher management and executive positions, enter areas they've never worked (or fought) before. The Left's drive for "diversity" and "equality" means more and more women in areas they were not present before, at all levels. As anyone who worked in corporate America knows, rising through management ranks means longer and longer hours at work. And less and less at home. Careers over family. Having a family at a later age. Leading a busy single life longer and longer. Subsiding on TV dinners (plastic trays), take-out food, and doggy-bag leftovers, all using disposable items. Many Millennial girls I know never learned to cook and are proud of it. Many older ones decided to follow the example and show their "liberation" by refusing to cook or clean. Enter more disposables.
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I thought it is obvious. In any case... With women leaving the kitchen and entering the workforce in increasing numbers, less time they have for doing the traditional thing (e.g., cooking and cleaning) the traditional way (i.e., washing and reusing). Enter disposable items. As they continue to be more engaged at work, they are then pressured (by the Left) to rise through the ranks, assume even higher management and executive positions, enter areas they've never worked (or fought) before. The Left's drive for "diversity" and "equality" means more and more women in areas they were not present before, at all levels. As anyone who worked in corporate America knows, rising through management ranks means longer and longer hours at work. And less and less at home. Careers over family. Having a family at a later age. Leading a busy single life longer and longer. Subsiding on TV dinners (plastic trays), take-out food, and doggy-bag leftovers, all using disposable items. Many Millennial girls I know never learned to cook and are proud of it. Many older ones decided to follow the example and show their "liberation" by refusing to cook or clean. Enter more disposables.
Absurd and baseless misogyny/chauvinism! Men can and do conduct cooking/cleaning which of course has nothing to do with the left, right, or otherwise.
Here we see text from someone whe believes women should be barefoot and pregnant?
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I thought it is obvious. In any case... With women leaving the kitchen and entering the workforce in increasing numbers, less time they have for doing the traditional thing (e.g., cooking and cleaning) the traditional way (i.e., washing and reusing). Enter disposable items. As they continue to be more engaged at work, they are then pressured (by the Left) to rise through the ranks, assume even higher management and executive positions, enter areas they've never worked (or fought) before. The Left's drive for "diversity" and "equality" means more and more women in areas they were not present before, at all levels. As anyone who worked in corporate America knows, rising through management ranks means longer and longer hours at work. And less and less at home. Careers over family. Having a family at a later age. Leading a busy single life longer and longer. Subsiding on TV dinners (plastic trays), take-out food, and doggy-bag leftovers, all using disposable items. Many Millennial girls I know never learned to cook and are proud of it. Many older ones decided to follow the example and show their "liberation" by refusing to cook or clean. Enter more disposables.
Jesus wept, is it any wonder there are few women here on LuLa?
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Absurd and baseless misogyny/chauvinism! Men can and do conduct cooking/cleaning which of course has nothing to do with the left, right, or otherwise.
Here we see text from someone whe believes women should be barefoot and pregnant?
I did not see misogyny anywhere in Slobo's post. Perhaps in a prior one that I did not read.
Anyway, whether you like it or not, in the family unit of the past, it was the women who did the house work. (Now I do not subscribe to the idea that women should stay home and not work; I would welcome anyone into the workforce.)
More women entering the workforce while at the some time the amount of men in it is not decreasing is taking hours away from house chores. I do not think nor subscribe to the idea of reverting back. However the net effect is less hours spent at home.
A solution to this may be disposable products, which Slobo pointed out. I edited this because we would need a better study then just conjecture here to actually say this is the case.
Unfortunately at the same time, home ec (along with shop and tech classes) are being taken away from high schools, creating many other problems. One such problem is that people are eating too much processed food due a lack of cooking skills. It really does not take that much time to cook a simple dinner once you learn how to cook. (I grew up in restaurants, so perhaps I have an advantage, but still, a salad is rather simple to make.)
People really need to learn to separate fact and cause and effect situations, from prejudice.
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It happens that I am a man who cooks, cleans, and cares for the children in essentially the same way the stereotypical 1950s housewife did, while my wife works. By good luck and good planning, we're able to make this work out. It is not necessary for both of us to work outside the home.
An alternate take from Mr. Blagojevic's is that capitalism run rampant has forced the working class into a situation in which both partners in the family must work to make ends meet, leading to the aforementioned rise is disposables. I find the whole thing somewhat tenuous at best, but if you insist on "less cooking and housekeeping" is the cause of plastic in the ocean, then the cause of the cause can be attributed somewhat better to insufficiently fettered capitalism than it can be some vague leftist agenda.
That wages of the working class have been essentially flat for decades is undisputed. That Capitalists are doing increasingly better is undisputed. That the wage gap has been expanding for decades and continues to do so is undisputed. It is, from these undisputed facts, a very very small step to "insufficiently fettered Capitalism is the major cause the both-parents-work situation"
Of course the leftist agenda did include the idea of choices in work, but as usual the Capitalists co-opted this and turned it in to "No, no, it's not that we would prefer that We Get the Money and You Do Not, it's OPPORTUNITY!" but that is an obvious sham.
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It happens that I am a man who cooks, cleans, and cares for the children in essentially the same way the stereotypical 1950s housewife did, while my wife works. By good luck and good planning, we're able to make this work out. It is not necessary for both of us to work outside the home.
An alternate take from Mr. Blagojevic's is that capitalism run rampant has forced the working class into a situation in which both partners in the family must work to make ends meet, leading to the aforementioned rise is disposables. I find the whole thing somewhat tenuous at best, but if you insist on "less cooking and housekeeping" is the cause of plastic in the ocean, then the cause of the cause can be attributed somewhat better to insufficiently fettered capitalism than it can be some vague leftist agenda.
That wages of the working class have been essentially flat for decades is undisputed. That Capitalists are doing increasingly better is undisputed. That the wage gap has been expanding for decades and continues to do so is undisputed. It is, from these undisputed facts, a very very small step to "insufficiently fettered Capitalism is the major cause the both-parents-work situation"
Of course the leftist agenda did include the idea of choices in work, but as usual the Capitalists co-opted this and turned it in to "No, no, it's not that we would prefer that We Get the Money and You Do Not, it's OPPORTUNITY!" but that is an obvious sham.
I must ask, who are your quoting in this post?
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I am not quoting anybody, those quotations should be read as belonging to an unspecified, and notional, speaker.
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Absurd and baseless misogyny/chauvinism! ...
My post was supposed to be thought-provoking. Your reaction, as expected, had nothing to do with thinking. Knee-jerk non-sequiturs, however...
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... An alternate take from Mr. Blagojevic's is that capitalism run rampant has forced the working class into a situation in which both partners in the family must work to make ends meet, leading to the aforementioned rise in disposables...
Mr. Molitor (are we now on the last-name basis?),
What I wrote did not mention nor dispute that. And I happen to agree (up to a point).
However, I am referring specifically to the current leftist agenda that piggybacks on the capitalist one: once forced into work, the Left is pushing women further into time-consuming careers, through "diversity" and "equality" campaigns. And I am not getting into whether that is good or bad, correct or not, progressive or not, feminist or not, I am simply pointing out the consequence for the rise in disposables.
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Mr. Molitor (are we now on the last-name basis?),
What I wrote did not mention nor dispute that. And I happen to agree (up to a point).
However, I am referring specifically to the current leftist agenda that piggybacks on the capitalist one: once forced into work, the Left is pushing women further into time-consuming careers, through "diversity" and "equality" campaigns. And I am not getting into whether that is good or bad, correct or not, progressive or not, feminist or not, I am simply pointing out the consequence for the rise in disposables.
The current leftist agenda in the capitalist world is one thing, but as I recollect growing up in the former eastern block, there it all started in the fifties. The lefties communists were the ones forcing also the women to work so the family could earn enough money to survive. And we didn't have the luxury of stir sticks, straws, or prepared TV dinners. Women went to work, cooked, took care of kids, sowed their own dresses (and clothes for the kids), and if they were lucky to live in a house, took care also of the pig and chickens, and the vegetable garden. They were the real super women.
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My post was supposed to be thought-provoking.
Unfortunately it was made with little thought. Just nonsense.
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(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f5/9f/e2/f59fe21e8a71f20b27fbbd5d299664cb.jpg)
Hi,
I'd be curious to know the source of this photo. Being somewhat familiar with bird digestive systems, I smell a rat here.
I'm not a denier, by the way... just interested in rationality.
Rand
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In my more morose moods, I can envision a civilization thousands (if not millions) of years hence, drilling for the oil that these deposited plastics created. Seems somewhat logical since that's where our plastics come from today.
Rand
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Here's another "long range" thought. If random mutation and natural selection (unguided) is the process of living organisms; given a micro-second or two of evolutionary time won't the system adapt? Perhaps not with homo sapiens in it, but won't life adapt? I'm guessing the toxicity of the Yucatan meteor strike was an acute, rather than chronic, shift of this sort. Some species waned, some waxed. But chronic shifts seem more easily dealt with than acute onset events. Here's an interesting quote from Richard Dawkins that would seem to bear on this kind of thinking:
“The total amount of suffering per year in the natural world is beyond all decent contemplation. During the minute that it takes me to compose this sentence, thousands of animals are being eaten alive, many others are running for their lives, whimpering with fear, others are slowly being devoured from within by rasping parasites, thousands of all kinds are dying of starvation, thirst, and disease. It must be so. If there ever is a time of plenty, this very fact will automatically lead to an increase in the population until the natural state of starvation and misery is restored. In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.”
― Richard Dawkins, River Out of Eden: A Darwinian View of Life
Now, I believe we should be good stewards of our home, and should look for the long range and unanticipated impacts of the things we do and the effects they may have on the ecosystem of our epoch. But if Dawkins is right, it matters not a bit - unless we hold homo sapiens in some higher regard that we perhaps ought to do.
Rand
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Hi,
I'd be curious to know the source of this photo. Being somewhat familiar with bird digestive systems, I smell a rat here.
I'm not a denier, by the way... just interested in rationality.
Rand
This is what I found:
http://www.chrisjordan.com/gallery/midway/#CF000313%2018x24
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http://www.amusingplanet.com/2014/06/saddening-images-of-dead-sea-birds-with.html
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Excellent research, boys. I had no idea where that image came from. Now I do. Thank you.
The diversity of similar images indicates that no artificial arrangement of the plastics was done.
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(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f5/9f/e2/f59fe21e8a71f20b27fbbd5d299664cb.jpg)
It appears to me that either wave action caused bits of plastic to lodge in the bird carcass as they washed back and forth, or someone carefully placed at least some if it there. As someone with a medical science degree, I highly doubt the bird swallowed all that plastic and died from it.
Kent in SD
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The idea that it was "The Left" who forced women into the workforce to enhance a political stance of gender equality is beyond lame. Some women I'm sure entered the workforce by choice, perhaps intending pursuit of a higher calling than washing diapers and making mac and cheese for supper.
The idea that it was "The Right" (ie capitalism) that forced women into the workforce in order to compensate for an age of ever-decreasing real wages (caused by greedy rightist capitalists) could quite easily be raised in contradiction.
But that might be lame, too.
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... Some women...
Some argument.
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OK, then. Many.
Kent in SD: did you go to the images on the sites referenced? Nobody arranged those plastic bits.
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Some argument.
All off topic! That’s what happens in hijacked, political off topic post agendas.
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All off topic!...
Is it?
I thought it was you who suggested to fight the plastic in the ocean with societal,cultural changes (like using less plastic and disposables). I am merely pointing out one societal, cultural aspect that is not going to change anytime soon. Like a genie back to bottle, women won't go back to the kitchen, hence the disposables are going to stay with us... and in the oceans. Until we collect them and properly dispose.
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Is it?
It is!
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It appears to me that either wave action caused bits of plastic to lodge in the bird carcass as they washed back and forth, or someone carefully placed at least some if it there. As someone with a medical science degree, I highly doubt the bird swallowed all that plastic and died from it.
Kent in SD
Kent, here is a 7 min. video about the plastics in the oceans, and about in the middle of it (3:15), Dr. Jennifer Lavers, a marine scientist starts to dissect a shearwater (medium size seabird), and pull out plastic pieces from its stomach. You can watch her to pull out 234 pieces of plastic in different sizes from that bird and spreading it on the table (4:15). All washed and cleaned up at this time. According to the researcher, the record number of plastics for that species was 276 pieces!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ju_2NuK5O-E
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All off topic! That’s what happens in hijacked, political off topic post agendas.
Mea culpa. Fed the troll. Apologies.
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Phil, I'm old enough to have seen this kind of doomsday crap over and over and over. We're still here. We'll probably still be here for a long time to come. A much more serious threat is something like an asteroid strike. But that's not a concern of left-wing politics, so nobody's hiding under the bed because of it.
Russ, it seems you're dead on the money. Catastrophic asteroid impact (http://www.news.com.au/technology/science/space/planetary-defenders-humanitys-greatest-challenge-to-save-the-world-from-catastrophic-asteroid-impacts/news-story/d3e2e2d71372a3d90cb02aa810f5ef60)
Cheers,
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Russ, it seems you're dead on the money. Catastrophic asteroid impact (http://www.news.com.au/technology/science/space/planetary-defenders-humanitys-greatest-challenge-to-save-the-world-from-catastrophic-asteroid-impacts/news-story/d3e2e2d71372a3d90cb02aa810f5ef60)
Cheers,
This is a good example of things about which we should stop worrying because there's precious little we can do about it, and that's in stark contrast with all the man-sponsored problems about which we could and should be doing things about.
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Just came across the following news item from Thailand, which is a country where littering on the beaches is a major problem. Perhaps the Western tourists can set an example. ;)
"Impressive" Swiss ladies clearing up Samui but the locals should be "ashamed of themselves."
"Daily News reported that two Swiss tourists were going the extra mile to clear up the beach at Samui.
But two local officials had a go at their litter-tossing compatriots saying they should be ashamed that tourists were clearing up their mess.
The media met up with the two Swiss ladies who they called Fabian, 23, and Jamin, 31.
Fabian said they love Samui and could do nothing as trash blew in to Ban Beach, Mae Nam, off the sea. So they asked the bungalow where they were staying for bin bags and picked up the rubbish over a five kilometer stretch.
Their haul included plastic, foam and bottles."
https://www.dailynews.co.th/regional/640481
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... Unfortunately at the same time, home ec (along with shop and tech classes) are being taken away from high schools, creating many other problems..l
“Let’s teach #ADULTING in schools again”
https://www.facebook.com/attnlife/videos/1843185669277107/
Sorry about the Facebook link, couldn’t find the original source.
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“Let’s teach #ADULTING in schools again”
https://www.facebook.com/attnlife/videos/1843185669277107/
Sorry about the Facebook link, couldn’t find the original source.
Is that the verb derived from adultery?
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I'm trying to understand why people would NOT be worried about micro-plastics getting into their bodies. Do you think we evolved to deal with that?
You know guys, just because something is vaguely lefty or greenpeace-y or downtown liberal-y, that doesn't mean you have to come down against it just to piss those people off. Nobody is verifying your tribal credentials, you know.
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Unfortunately, we are already ingesting microplastics, not only from the tapwater, but even more worrisome to some, also by drinking beer.
The analysis of tap water samples from around the world found that a high proportion of drinking water is contaminated with microscopic fragments of plastic (83% of samples collected worldwide, but up to 94% in the USA). Microplastic contamination seems more widespread than we perhaps knew, and they are regularly being ingested by people worldwide. Most concerning is how little is known about the effects of microplastic consumption on human health.
As of 2015, 6300 million tonnes of plastic waste have been generated, around 9% of which was recycled, 12% was incinerated, and 79% ended up in landfills or the environment. The issue of large plastic items polluting the world's oceans is well known, leading to policies that aim to limit the production and use of plastic bags and bottles, and increase recycling. However, a key problem with plastics is that they are essentially indestructible; rather than being biodegraded, they break down into smaller and smaller pieces, eventually becoming microscopic fragments. We should no longer just be concerned with large plastic items clogging up oceans and waterways, but also more attention needs to be paid to these tiny fragments and their effects on planetary health.
The tapwater study is not the first to indicate that microplastics are being consumed by humans. A 2014 study of German beer brands found that microplastics were present in all of the samples, and a Parisian study showed microplastics not just in water but also in the air. Microplastics are also routinely ingested by fish and shellfish. But the apparent widespread presence of microplastics in tapwater is particularly concerning because it points to substantial contamination of terrestrial and freshwater—as well as marine—ecosystems.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanplh/article/PIIS2542-5196(17)30121-3/fulltext
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I'm trying to understand why people would NOT be worried about micro-plastics getting into their bodies. Do you think we evolved to deal with that?
You know guys, just because something is vaguely lefty or greenpeace-y or downtown liberal-y, that doesn't mean you have to come down against it just to piss those people off. Nobody is verifying your tribal credentials, you know.
It's the same problem we see with governments and oppositions: all they care about is bringing down the power in charge at the time, not at all about the matters to hand.
So pitiful for countries to be ruined run that way.
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One possible contribution to the solution:
https://www.facebook.com/WeNeedThisbyattn/videos/214218579080015/
The video (sorry for the FB link) is about “shampoo bars [that] could replace the 552 million shampoo bottles we throw out annually.”
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Thanks for mentioning it, Slobodan
I never knew such shampoo bars existed, I'll try it out. I see that the Lush company sold 12,000 Shampoo Bars in the last two days thanks to that video. Great also for camping and travelling.
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After having another quick skim through this topic I noticed earlier that it was claimed that 90% of ocean plastics come out of ten major rivers. Would it not be possible to put big nets across the mouths of these rivers to catch the larger plastic items before they reach the ocean and eventually break down into microplastics?
Now I know that is a very simplistic suggestion, as some of these rivers are quite big and carry a lot of traffic - but seems to make sense to me.......
Jim
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After having another quick skim through this topic I noticed earlier that it was claimed that 90% of ocean plastics come out of ten major rivers. Would it not be possible to put big nets across the mouths of these rivers to catch the larger plastic items before they reach the ocean and eventually break down into microplastics?
Now I know that is a very simplistic suggestion, as some of these rivers are quite big and carry a lot of traffic - but seems to make sense to me.......
Jim
Unless you are in a submarine? :-\
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It happens that I am a man who cooks, cleans, and cares for the children in essentially the same way the stereotypical 1950s housewife did, while my wife works. By good luck and good planning, we're able to make this work out. It is not necessary for both of us to work outside the home.
An alternate take from Mr. Blagojevic's is that capitalism run rampant has forced the working class into a situation in which both partners in the family must work to make ends meet, leading to the aforementioned rise is disposables. I find the whole thing somewhat tenuous at best, but if you insist on "less cooking and housekeeping" is the cause of plastic in the ocean, then the cause of the cause can be attributed somewhat better to insufficiently fettered capitalism than it can be some vague leftist agenda.
That wages of the working class have been essentially flat for decades is undisputed. That Capitalists are doing increasingly better is undisputed. That the wage gap has been expanding for decades and continues to do so is undisputed. It is, from these undisputed facts, a very very small step to "insufficiently fettered Capitalism is the major cause the both-parents-work situation"
Of course the leftist agenda did include the idea of choices in work, but as usual the Capitalists co-opted this and turned it in to "No, no, it's not that we would prefer that We Get the Money and You Do Not, it's OPPORTUNITY!" but that is an obvious sham.
It's not capitalism that forced both spouses to have to work to make ends meet. It's higher taxes caused by more socialist spending by federal, state and local governments including income, sales, property, social security, medicare, and other taxes. When I first started working, social security was 3% and there were no medicare deductions. Now SS and medicare total is 7.65%, more than double which is then doubled since the employer has to match it. That's only one example. The idea that capitalism makes things more expensive is just Marxist nonsense. It makes things cheaper by providing more competition and creates more wealth and jobs than any other economic system. Just look what happened to Venezuela when the government took over industry and ran markets. The people there are starving. At least the wives don't have to work because there is no work! Neither do husbands.
Plastic is cheaper than a lot of products made the "old" way. It's lighter than glass for example in soda bottles and doesn't break making it safer around all people especially children. It does have its downsides like everything else in creation. But "old" methods also have negatives. On balance I think plastic is amazing and has advanced human societies in a positive way. Here in NJ re-cycling plastics is helping the situation. In some state, you have to pay a deposit on the plastic bottle so it encourages returns where they are recycled. I wonder how much sea life is using that floating plastic for their homes like in the Sargasso Sea where floating logs, sea weed and just plain crap provide protection and homes for many species.
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While I take the issue of plastic related pollution seriously, I just couldn't help myself. Reading through this thread reminded me of this old Simpson's clip (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-QeTbmchvQ) presented without implication or agenda.
Best regards
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While I take the issue of plastic related pollution seriously, I just couldn't help myself. Reading through this thread reminded me of this old Simpson's clip (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-QeTbmchvQ) presented without implication or agenda.
Best regards
Wasn't it an environmentalist who said that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. :)
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The irony and hypocrisy of
climate alarmists environmentalists:
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The irony and hypocrisy of climate alarmists:
Climate alarmists?
Cheers,
Bart
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Climate alarmists?
I see what you mean. It is not about climate change, but about good, old pollution.
Then again, maybe the amount of plastic in the ocean is the primary reason for the rise in sea levels? ;)
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Some good news.
https://www.facebook.com/attn/videos/1751087594926692/
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The irony and hypocrisy of climate alarmists environmentalists:
A tad, but this can be recycled and it is into an awesome product (I've got in my Green built home) called TREX (http://www.trex.com/products/decking/transcend-decking-and-railing/?gclid=CjwKCAjwsdfZBRAkEiwAh2z65kyJ2_cgFWQz3NIctamEw_ApNKUfKP291z-vG7EAlaEs3ZfR47OgkxoCHDUQAvD_BwE). Any such plastic that's thin enough to push your finger through can be recycled this way.
That is for those of us that concentrate on recycling (http://eldorado285recycleso.ipage.com)....
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...Any such plastic that's thin enough to push your finger through can be recycled this way...
Isn't every supermarket plastic bag easily punctured by a finger?
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Isn't every supermarket plastic bag easily punctured by a finger?
Depends on the size of your fingers. ;D
Indeed, the rule for recycling what is called "Film" here (and I provided a link to our local recycle group of which I volunteer) is IF you can push your finger though it, it can be recycled in the appropriate area. For us, that happens to be at our local supermarkets. So yes, is the answer to your question.
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Depends on the size of your fingers. ;D...
You mean Trump couldn't puncture it? ;)
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You mean Trump couldn't puncture it? ;)
Can he get out of a wet paper bag?
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Some good news.
https://www.facebook.com/attn/videos/1751087594926692/
The next Steve Jobs. Bravo.