Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Motion & Video => Topic started by: fredjeang2 on April 16, 2018, 02:47:00 pm

Title: THIS, is really good! (The new Blackmagic pocket 4k)
Post by: fredjeang2 on April 16, 2018, 02:47:00 pm
Awesome
https://youtu.be/iTNab0DujNg

See the specs and price point (ridiculous price). Nothing will beat this combo at size/specs/price.
Finally a menu as it should be in every camera: please Canon, Sony, Panasonic go to see the
People at BM so they tell you how to design proper menus...it wouldn't be a luxury.
The all package is amazing, the price is amazing.
Blackmagic listen...unlike Canon and Co.

They going to spread the world. Rarely we see a new camera that is exactly what so many people
Were asking for years. THIS, is the camera.
Title: Re: THIS, is really good! (The new Blackmagic pocket 4k)
Post by: Chris L on April 16, 2018, 03:18:11 pm
Ya I like the form factor. Ill prob get one as a B cam for my BM Ursa Mini if the dynamic range is close to it. I heard there would be some sort of EF mount adaptor for the 4/3 mount?
Title: Re: THIS, is really good! (The new Blackmagic pocket 4k)
Post by: fredjeang2 on April 16, 2018, 05:21:09 pm
Ya I like the form factor. Ill prob get one as a B cam for my BM Ursa Mini if the dynamic range is close to it. I heard there would be some sort of EF mount adaptor for the 4/3 mount?
You have to look for the existing Speedbooster adapter. But yes, the Blackmagic vendor of this video said that they will develop a new version for this particular camera. (I understand that it's not yet on sale)
You can mount almost everything with m43 mount. But as the mount is now
Connected electronicaly it might be a good idea to get a Leica (like the one that comes with the GH5 package) so you have stabilized optic and silent AF.
Title: Re: THIS, is really good! (The new Blackmagic pocket 4k)
Post by: fredjeang2 on April 17, 2018, 04:01:03 am
Ps: there is a stock of 4/3 lenses from pre micro 4/3 era from Olympus that are pro grade, sealed
And top quality. Nobody wants them since the consorsium abandoned 4/3 so bangs for the buck. But they are quite big which goes a bit against the philosophy of the "pocket".
I have a doubt on this point if it makes sense or not and how the connections
With the mount will interact as micro 4/3 has shorter flange back lengh so an adapter is needed to mount 4/3 lenses.
What I think is that IMO it makes more sense to get the top of the micro4/3 lenses instead of
Using full frame glasses that were not designed for this standart and inferior optically.
At Nab BM mounted it with Olympus and Panasonic zooms for a reason (because I think they are the obvious choice)
There are lenses from both Olympus and Panasonic-Leica that are state of the art in optics engineering and a lot are  stabilized.
And way smaller than their ff equivalent.
A few questions remain to be answered so far, but soon we'll get a better picture.

But the idea is keeping the combo small and see how usable is AF.
Chris Sanderson might know which lenses from m4/3 are working best for video in AF/MF as he uses the GH line.
I used Panasonic for video in the past but not with legacy m4/3 lenses so no experience
Whatsoever with them.
Chris, if you see this post, please report.
Title: Re: THIS, is really good! (The new Blackmagic pocket 4k)
Post by: Christopher Sanderson on April 17, 2018, 10:59:43 am
Alas, I have never found AF with the GH2-5 series usable for video unless absolutely necessary - even the GH5 I find unacceptable. I am still in the manual focus world.
Title: Re: THIS, is really good! (The new Blackmagic pocket 4k)
Post by: Peter McLennan on April 17, 2018, 11:53:12 am
Alas, I have never found AF with the GH2-5 series usable for video unless absolutely necessary - even the GH5 I find unacceptable. I am still in the manual focus world.

Full agreement.  That's why they're called "Camera Operators".
Title: Re: THIS, is really good! (The new Blackmagic pocket 4k)
Post by: Christopher Sanderson on April 17, 2018, 12:06:24 pm
Alas, I have never found AF with the GH2-5 series usable for video unless absolutely necessary - even the GH5 I find unacceptable. I am still in the manual focus world.
I should add that any Panny or Oly m43 lens that has infinite focus-by-wire with no hard focus stops at close and infinity is horrible for manual focus - this leads me to lenses such as FF Canon (+ adapter) with hard stops - preferably with a +/- 180˚ throw.
Title: Re: THIS, is really good! (The new Blackmagic pocket 4k)
Post by: fredjeang2 on April 17, 2018, 02:30:13 pm
...focus-by-wire with no hard focus stops at close and infinity is horrible for manual focus...
Unfortunatly that is the truth. So they are all focus-by-wire without stops? bad news. Something I'm not interested in and sadly has plagued the Fuji X lenses also when I asked. So yeah, the speedbooster makes sense or manual cine zooms.
Seems that the only AF that works minimaly well for video is the Canon'.
And so what about stabilization? I guess the GH5 has dual IS no and should be a plus handheld? Or is it another mirage?
But the BM has no ibis.

Mmmm. Bad news. I really like the small form factor of the m4/3 lenses and thought it could have been an elegant solution matching the camera size philosophy. Now Chris cutted me the buzz  ;D not because AF doesn't work, I expected it, but because MF is a PITA with m43 lenses.

It remains unclear for me which current speedbooster will fit, the ancien model for the antique pocket shouldn't work on this one as ot will not cover the m4/3 sensor so I guess we are talking about the existing speedboosters for Panasonic.
Title: Re: THIS, is really good! (The new Blackmagic pocket 4k)
Post by: Christopher Sanderson on April 17, 2018, 03:50:58 pm
...It remains unclear for me which current speedbooster will fit, the ancien model for the antique pocket shouldn't work on this one as ot will not cover the m4/3 sensor so I guess we are talking about the existing speedboosters for Panasonic.
I recall a NAB video (cinema 5D?) with a guy from BM who suggested that it is likely that SpeedBooster will be building a new adapter for this camera
Title: Re: THIS, is really good! (The new Blackmagic pocket 4k)
Post by: Christopher Sanderson on April 17, 2018, 06:09:05 pm
Unfortunatly that is the truth. So they are all focus-by-wire without stops?...

No, Oly Zuiko offers several lenses with a manual focus clutch which works really well. You simply pull the focus ring and voilà - real manual focus. I have the 12-40 that I use regularly and also the 12 prime. They have about a 90 degree throw. I also have a 25 Voigtlander which is fully manual & fast (0.9) but heavy.
Title: Re: THIS, is really good! (The new Blackmagic pocket 4k)
Post by: eronald on April 17, 2018, 06:19:34 pm
Panasonic 12-35 stabilisation with GH4 is out of this world. I did a music video and an interview with it handheld, unbelievable.

I don't think manual AF is going to fly on any camera if one doesn't have a larger monitor mounted where one can see it. Or a loupe.

This tiny BM may have a wonderful image, but in the end it's going to be an external monitor-recorder, speedbooster, manual AF, external power,  external sound box etc etc setup, and anyone who wants to work in peace without a zillion pieces and without a crew to make sure they're packed in the right bags and assembled should just get a Canon or a Sony FS5 or FS7  already, and eat the quality of the image for the peace of mind of just getting the job done. And yes, the GH5 costs the same, and in the end probably solves most of the same problems much better if you don't need Raw.

I do understand that the well-paid parts of the film business are often about getting 10 minutes done on a good day, but not all of video is that way, for news or documentary or even stuff like marriages one just gets one go, and this BM simply isn't going to go there.


Edmund






Unfortunatly that is the truth. So they are all focus-by-wire without stops? bad news. Something I'm not interested in and sadly has plagued the Fuji X lenses also when I asked. So yeah, the speedbooster makes sense or manual cine zooms.
Seems that the only AF that works minimaly well for video is the Canon'.
And so what about stabilization? I guess the GH5 has dual IS no and should be a plus handheld? Or is it another mirage?
But the BM has no ibis.

Mmmm. Bad news. I really like the small form factor of the m4/3 lenses and thought it could have been an elegant solution matching the camera size philosophy. Now Chris cutted me the buzz  ;D not because AF doesn't work, I expected it, but because MF is a PITA with m43 lenses.

It remains unclear for me which current speedbooster will fit, the ancien model for the antique pocket shouldn't work on this one as ot will not cover the m4/3 sensor so I guess we are talking about the existing speedboosters for Panasonic.
Title: Re: THIS, is really good! (The new Blackmagic pocket 4k)
Post by: fredjeang2 on April 17, 2018, 08:51:21 pm
No, Oly Zuiko offers several lenses with a manual focus clutch which works really well. You simply pull the focus ring and voilà - real manual focus. I have the 12-40 that I use regularly and also the 12 prime. They have about a 90 degree throw. I also have a 25 Voigtlander which is fully manual & fast (0.9) but heavy.
Thanks.
On 25mm f0.9 I've heard good things from number of sources on the Mitakon for m4/3, it performs quite the same on tests and way smaller-lighter.
It reminds a M glass and apparently well build.
Title: Re: THIS, is really good! (The new Blackmagic pocket 4k)
Post by: fredjeang2 on April 17, 2018, 09:08:00 pm
Panasonic 12-35 stabilisation with GH4 is out of this world. I did a music video and an interview with it handheld, unbelievable.

Yeah, I've seem amazing performances on video with the stab in m4/3 that could justify in itself the all system.
Originaly Olympus was famous for having the best stabilization of digital age but Panasonic caught-up and with the dual IS all the comments I read and the footage I've seen is quite impressive indeed.
Just a certain caution with panning as it could fool the brain logicaly but with a bit of practice it is la crème de la crème.
The fact that the sensor is small helps a lot the engineers to build a state of the art IS compared to other systems.
As Canon rules AF, m4/3 rules IS.
The thing is that the BM has no ibis, so it looses a big benefit of the mount, but has a long list of enourmous advantages for the filmaker (and it will have Prores Raw in firmware).
The design, specs and price are spot-on.
The BM is more a specialist camera than the GH5, offers more on what it's designed for but the GH5/G9 do good stills too. There are professional photographers who embrassed the m4/3 movement over FF, unthinkable a few years ago. The system has matured a lot.
I'd buy this BM anyway because it's small, cheap, perfectly designed and really powerfull. It will fit like a glove in any prod model and I think they will sell a lot (waiting list)
Now for Vlogging as I heard, it's overkill and pointless.
Title: Re: THIS, is really good! (The new Blackmagic pocket 4k)
Post by: eronald on April 18, 2018, 09:47:35 am
Basically BM is RED for people with a low budget, and who are happy with that type of workflow - which I guess means you, Fred :)
i guess everyone in the video game needs to actually own one of something, so FS5 or C100 or GH5, or Sony A series or Blackmagic, depending on their shooting style.


Edmund

Yeah, I've seem amazing performances on video with the stab in m4/3 that could justify in itself the all system.
Originaly Olympus was famous for having the best stabilization of digital age but Panasonic caught-up and with the dual IS all the comments I read and the footage I've seen is quite impressive indeed.
Just a certain caution with panning as it could fool the brain logicaly but with a bit of practice it is la crème de la crème.
The fact that the sensor is small helps a lot the engineers to build a state of the art IS compared to other systems.
As Canon rules AF, m4/3 rules IS.
The thing is that the BM has no ibis, so it looses a big benefit of the mount, but has a long list of enourmous advantages for the filmaker (and it will have Prores Raw in firmware).
The design, specs and price are spot-on.
The BM is more a specialist camera than the GH5, offers more on what it's designed for but the GH5/G9 do good stills too. There are professional photographers who embrassed the m4/3 movement over FF, unthinkable a few years ago. The system has matured a lot.
I'd buy this BM anyway because it's small, cheap, perfectly designed and really powerfull. It will fit like a glove in any prod model and I think they will sell a lot (waiting list)
Now for Vlogging as I heard, it's overkill and pointless.
Title: Re: THIS, is really good! (The new Blackmagic pocket 4k)
Post by: fredjeang2 on April 19, 2018, 04:17:09 am
I have the 12-40 that I use regularly and also the 12 prime. They have about a 90 degree throw.
Do you reffer to this one: Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 12–40mm ƒ/2.8 PRO?
I think it's the one BM mounted on the Pocket for presentation at Nab.
For what I understand, it competes with the Summicron in price/prestations. Both are weather sealed.
But for what I read, the Leica has OIS, BUT the focus ring is a PITA in manual as it requires several 360 at low speed focussing which is unacceptable in video.
This Olympus seems more suitable, but does it have the stop you mentionned when pull the ring?
Title: Re: THIS, is really good! (The new Blackmagic pocket 4k)
Post by: Christopher Sanderson on April 19, 2018, 11:31:11 am
Do you reffer to this one: Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 12–40mm ƒ/2.8 PRO?
... but does it have the stop you mentionned when pull the ring?
Yes, that's the lens I use (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1003635-REG/olympus_v314060bu000_m_zuiko_digital_ed.html?sts=pi-ps). In manual focus it has hard stops to the focus ring at 0.19 m and infinity. The throw or twist is a pleasant 90 degrees. In AF it has no stops to focus. I really like it
Title: Re: THIS, is really good! (The new Blackmagic pocket 4k)
Post by: fredjeang2 on April 19, 2018, 02:31:46 pm
Yes, that's the lens I use (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1003635-REG/olympus_v314060bu000_m_zuiko_digital_ed.html?sts=pi-ps). In manual focus it has hard stops to the focus ring at 0.19 m and infinity. The throw or twist is a pleasant 90 degrees. In AF it has no stops to focus. I really like it
Thanks Chris.
Good to know.
Title: Re: THIS, is really good! (The new Blackmagic pocket 4k)
Post by: HywelPhillips on April 21, 2018, 01:00:49 pm
Alas, I have never found AF with the GH2-5 series usable for video unless absolutely necessary - even the GH5 I find unacceptable. I am still in the manual focus world.

I agree.

Useable AF *is* coming, slowly, system by system.

The Canon 1DXII is fully useable and proved as accurate in most circumstances as me plus a decent-sized monitor on my RED manually focussing on the fly.

The Sony A7Rii was kinda useable in some circumstances.

The A7Riii is significantly improved- I use it on a gimbal rig in autofocus quite a lot now. Touch over-ride of AF is a big step forward for general use, too. It's not infallible, but it's reliable enough to use on paying gigs as a one-man-band in the right circumstances.

These other systems aren't yet at the usability level of Canon dual pixel AF, but significant steps are being made year-on-year, which is nice.

Nonetheless, the gold standard is eyes-on-a-big-monitor and manual focus pulling.

Cheers, Hywel


Title: Re: THIS, is really good! (The new Blackmagic pocket 4k)
Post by: John Brawley on May 01, 2018, 04:35:01 pm
I should add that any Panny or Oly m43 lens that has infinite focus-by-wire with no hard focus stops at close and infinity is horrible for manual focus

Huh ?

Olympus make many lenses that have a mechanical manual focus clutch with hard focus at infinity and minimum focus. The 12mm F2, the recently released 17mm 1.2, 25mm 1.2, 45mm 1.2, the 12-40 2.8, the 40-150 F2.8, the 7-14 F2.8 and the 12-100 F4 which also has IS which should work with the pocket.

I shoot Olympus MFT primes all the time for this exact reason on many non Olympus cameras, especially Blackmagic MFT mount ones.

JB

* edit sorry I misunderstood.  I originally thought you were saying all Olympus and Panny lenses were focus by wire.

Title: Re: THIS, is really good! (The new Blackmagic pocket 4k)
Post by: John Brawley on May 01, 2018, 04:38:26 pm

Originaly Olympus was famous for having the best stabilization of digital age but Panasonic caught-up and with the dual IS all the comments I read and the footage I've seen is quite impressive indeed.

I'd suggest Olympus still are the best in terms of IBIS in my view.


The thing is that the BM has no ibis, so it looses a big benefit of the mount, but has a long list of enourmous advantages for the filmaker (and it will have Prores Raw in firmware).

This is your speculation.  No camera has yet been announced that has ProRes RAW.  It's only available to one brand of external recorder at the moment.

Of course it DOES shoot DNG RAW and many other flavours of ProRes.

JB
Title: Re: THIS, is really good! (The new Blackmagic pocket 4k)
Post by: John Brawley on May 01, 2018, 04:41:38 pm
Thanks.
On 25mm f0.9 I've heard good things from number of sources on the Mitakon for m4/3, it performs quite the same on tests and way smaller-lighter.
It reminds a M glass and apparently well build.

Don't forget the SLR Magic 25mm .95 as well, also a great performer and a "cinevised" lens.  I've used this for many years now. 

JB
Title: Re: THIS, is really good! (The new Blackmagic pocket 4k)
Post by: John Brawley on May 01, 2018, 04:51:48 pm

Mmmm. Bad news. I really like the small form factor of the m4/3 lenses and thought it could have been an elegant solution matching the camera size philosophy. Now Chris cutted me the buzz  ;D not because AF doesn't work, I expected it, but because MF is a PITA with m43 lenses.


The thing is when you use native MFT glass, you tend to get much better optical performance than speed boosted or adapted 135 format lenses.  Remember MFT was designed to be allow telecentric lens designs and 135 format glass is / was optimised for different purposes.

Also, no adaptor, less interplay of mounts, usually smaller and better performing.

And MFT is very mature.  SLR Magic, Voightlander, Veydra etc etc as well as Olympus, Panasonic / Panny - Leica as native lenses.  Even other obscure companies like DJI, Laowa, Rokinon, Samyang, Mitakon, Ibelux have made native MFT mount.  Sigma too have done in the past.

https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2018/01/finally-some-m43-mtf-testing-25mm-prime-lens-comparison/

Olympus 25mm 1.2 MTF charts...
"This is actually very good for an f/1.2 lens, much better than the Canon 50mm f/1.2, for example. It maintains excellent sharpness in the center half of the image. It’s still quite sharp, although with some astigmatism, out to the edge."

And

https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2018/03/veydra-cine-mini-prime-mtf-optical-bench-tests/

Comparing Veydra primes to Zeiss CP2's
"If you’re a CP.2 fan, you’re going to have to talk about the look of the lenses, or how they handle, or something similar to explain why you like them. Because, to be quite blunt, the Veydras just kick some serious resolution butt in this comparison. To be fair, though, Zeiss CP.2s have never been about absolute resolution. On the other hand, when you move up to 4k and eventually higher footage, the resolution is going to be more important than it was at 1080p, especially on smaller sensors."

Here's a pretty good list of native MFT lenses. Still doens't list SLR Magic (one of the most interesting manufacturers in my view) and Veydra.

https://www.apotelyt.com/photo-lens/micro-four-thirds-catalog

And Veydra themselves

https://www.veydra.com/

and SLR Magic https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/buy/Shop-by-Brand-SLR-Magic/ci/4/phd/3888479510/N/4294255798

I have no affiliation with BH, but I have a close relationship and have consulted with both Olympus, SLR Magic and Blackmagic Design.

I also own Veydra's, Zeiss CP2/3's with MFT mount and most Olympus SLR Magic and Pananasonic MFT lenses

JB


Title: Re: THIS, is really good! (The new Blackmagic pocket 4k)
Post by: fredjeang2 on May 01, 2018, 05:57:27 pm

Also, no adaptor, less interplay of mounts, usually smaller and better performing.

And MFT is very mature. 
That is the point.
Thanks for those infos John.
Title: Re: THIS, is really good! (The new Blackmagic pocket 4k)
Post by: D Fuller on June 23, 2018, 07:52:16 pm
I agree.

Useable AF *is* coming, slowly, system by system.

...

The Sony A7Rii was kinda useable in some circumstances.

The A7Riii is significantly improved- I use it on a gimbal rig in autofocus quite a lot now. Touch over-ride of AF is a big step forward for general use, too. It's not infallible, but it's reliable enough to use on paying gigs as a one-man-band in the right circumstances.

Cheers, Hywel

Hywel, which lenses give you acceptable autofocus with your A7r3?

I’ve found the lens choice to be pretty important with the Mk2 version. The Sony/Zeiss 55 works pretty well; the Sony 28 f2.0 nearly as well, but the Sony 50 1.8 is pretty much unusable.

What are your favorites?
Title: Re: THIS, is really good! (The new Blackmagic pocket 4k)
Post by: fredjeang2 on June 27, 2018, 03:55:26 pm
Hywel, which lenses give you acceptable autofocus with your A7r3?

I’ve found the lens choice to be pretty important with the Mk2 version. The Sony/Zeiss 55 works pretty well; the Sony 28 f2.0 nearly as well, but the Sony 50 1.8 is pretty much unusable.

What are your favorites?
David, didn't you find the Zeiss(es) a bit too noisy? Mine emitted an irritating
Weired tictic when focussing and there was no way to avoid it, when the Sony are silent.
It's just that being Zeiss and paying Zeiss's price, I did not find that very ”german engineered”, so to say.
Edit: I was refering to the Batis/Touit and not the Sony's branded Zeiss. I just realised I didn't mention it.

Ps: congrats for the website, it works very well on mobile phones.
Title: Re: THIS, is really good! (The new Blackmagic pocket 4k)
Post by: fredjeang2 on June 27, 2018, 04:27:23 pm

This is your speculation.
Yes, it remains speculative, but it's not mine.
People at BM are aware that there is a demand and willingness from their part to introduce ProresRaw, if possible, (big if) in future firmware.
The problem with Apple is that it's not DNx nor DNG and they can well lock the process in order to keep some exclusivity for their own products. As they never allowed Prores writte on PCs which is understandable because
They don't want to canibalise their computers. But in the case of their "raw” what's the prob?
Sell more FCP? I doubt it'd change anything.
(Actually, this is not completly true because Apple unlocked the use of certified Prores on PC with Scratch. Why Assimilate
And not others? Big mystery. Had the dudes in Paris exchanged Prores with bottles of Mouton Rothschild for the Apple executives? But sometimes it's hard to see through commercial deals.)

That I know at the time of writing (correct me if I'm wrong), neither Resolve nor the Madrid based SGO Mistika are currently dealing with, which is a real problem. No news either from Assimilate. Abobe, Avid, Baselight, Nuke no idea. If Apple wants to keep exclusivity for FCP, then BM will likely not introduce it. But it makes no sense or I can't see it.
So you are right, it is not sure, only wishes and rumors.
But the logic should be that Apple is open to any device to use their raw,
It's just a question of time.

I can't see the reason why they'd lock it for a larger market because then if disabled for the major post prod suites, who  would use it? I don't really know the backstages of politics but it makes sense Apple cooperates.
More exactly, Avid created open cross platform formats, BM, ILM too and others. What has been the contribution of Apple in this aspect? Zero. Nada. Rien de rien. Nichts. Niente. Nulla. 奥布莱恩. Absolutly nothing!!
Arri or BM can only put what Apple allow them to if it helps selling/protecting their hardwares.
Prores has certainly succeeded, and being hard core branded and protected, it's quite remarkable.

As the Cooter repeated: Apple always does what it wants anyway.
Title: Re: THIS, is really good! (The new Blackmagic pocket 4k)
Post by: bcooter on June 27, 2018, 06:38:44 pm

I do understand that the well-paid parts of the film business are often about getting 10 minutes done on a good day, but not all of video is that way, for news or documentary or even stuff like marriages one just gets one go, and this BM simply isn't going to go there.


Edmund

Edmund,

I think you've got your numbers a little mixed up.    When you hear that three major A- to B+ list actors on a worldwide cinema release are given no time for rehearsal, 15 minutes for lunch and the day is 14 hours minimum, I can promise you more than 10 minutes of useable footage is produced.   

I know nothing about shooting the new black magic pocket, though have heard reports good and bad though I don't think a lot of people have shot production with the new BM pocket camera which when fully kitted out with cages, recorders, EVF etc, will end up being medium large in size.   It seems to me it's targeted as a b/c cam, drone cam, action cam, for tight spaces, or for someone whose budget only allows for it as even the first bmpcc shot a pretty file, though quite small in comparison to super 35.

I also don't see it targeted as a competitor to the pana GH5, which is a very feature rich camera for the price, just a different look and as you say with IS more of a one man band documentary camera, though panasonic did a good job of packing in a lot of stuff in a little package.

The thing I do know is a good DP can take a lot of cameras ranging from $80,000 to $5,000 and get great results as long as they have the set up time and are up to speed on the system and of course the resources in post for color and masking and if needed effects.   

Hollywood has compressed their schedules to 1/2 and time which is money is the object and the studios and cinemas are trying to find their way around cable and internet episodic TV, like Netflix which has made their intentions clear that they want to dominate the entertainment industry with many, many 12 episodes shows a year episodic which look and taste more like a long movie than regular television.

Shooting a feature with small cameras has been done, 8 years ago.    The DP Shane Hurlbut shot act of valor in 2011 with Canon 5d2s with a full theatrical release, though I've been told they spent a year in post. 

I think Sodenberg shot his last film with I phones (I don't get that one but it's his movie to do as he wishes.)

It's interesting to me that there are about a billion youtube videos comparing I phones to Arri's, Arri's to RED, RED to Canon, Canon to BM, Panasonic to Sony, etc. etc. though 99.9% of all the work shot by the internet movie makers will never be shown on any platform other than youtube, Vimeo and websites, though they are always compared to the "movies".

It doesn't mean these people are not talented, or do a bad job, but there are so many tests, rumors, fanboys, it's hard to tell fact from fiction and as far as cable and internet TV there is so much of it now, you'd have to live in a cave and do nothing but binge TV watching 24/7 to keep up.

Also you have to be wary of what some people say.    When I bought my first RED I was told by a lot of DP/operators all the problems RED had, though my MX cameras have never stopped working (I guess I jinxed that), even in 101F, dripping sweat weather in Bangkok on very long days.   I'm sure that people that told me the negatives we're being honest in their experience, but we all have different styles, different projects.

But in virtually all cases, all platforms, only 10 minutes of usable footage a day will usually get someone or probably a lot of people fired. But as in all image making, it's not the camera as much as the story, what's in front of the lens and the crew working tirelessly behind it. 

I'm sure John, Dave and others that post here could shoot virtually everything on the lower priced bm ursa mini pro and nobody would know the difference

As I've said, I have a lot of respect for RED for starting the affordable real cinema camera that you can actually own, but I think BlackMagic is close to surpassing them as they have covered nearly all the bases at excellent prices.   

I believe most cameras, still and motion are all very good if you use them for their intended purpose and of course the DP's brief.

Oh yea, a proper budget also helps.

IMO

BC

Title: Re: THIS, is really good! (The new Blackmagic pocket 4k)
Post by: fredjeang2 on June 27, 2018, 07:45:35 pm
Edmund,

I think you've got your numbers a little mixed up.    When you hear that three major A- to B+ list actors on a worldwide cinema release are given no time for rehearsal, 15 minutes for lunch and the day is 14 hours minimum, I can promise you more than 10 minutes of useable footage is produced.   

I know nothing about shooting the new black magic pocket, though have heard reports good and bad though I don't think a lot of people have shot production with the new BM pocket camera which when fully kitted out with cages, recorders, EVF etc, will end up being medium large in size.   It seems to me it's targeted as a b/c cam, drone cam, action cam, for tight spaces, or for someone whose budget only allows for it as even the first bmpcc shot a pretty file, though quite small in comparison to super 35.

I also don't see it targeted as a competitor to the pana GH5, which is a very feature rich camera for the price, just a different look and as you say with IS more of a one man band documentary camera, though panasonic did a good job of packing in a lot of stuff in a little package.

The thing I do know is a good DP can take a lot of cameras ranging from $80,000 to $5,000 and get great results as long as they have the set up time and are up to speed on the system and of course the resources in post for color and masking and if needed effects.   

Hollywood has compressed their schedules to 1/2 and time which is money is the object and the studios and cinemas are trying to find their way around cable and internet episodic TV, like Netflix which has made their intentions clear that they want to dominate the entertainment industry with many, many 12 episodes shows a year episodic which look and taste more like a long movie than regular television.

Shooting a feature with small cameras has been done, 8 years ago.    The DP Shane Hurlbut shot act of valor in 2011 with Canon 5d2s with a full theatrical release, though I've been told they spent a year in post. 

I think Sodenberg shot his last film with I phones (I don't get that one but it's his movie to do as he wishes.)

It's interesting to me that there are about a billion youtube videos comparing I phones to Arri's, Arri's to RED, RED to Canon, Canon to BM, Panasonic to Sony, etc. etc. though 99.9% of all the work shot by the internet movie makers will never be shown on any platform other than youtube, Vimeo and websites, though they are always compared to the "movies".

It doesn't mean these people are not talented, or do a bad job, but there are so many tests, rumors, fanboys, it's hard to tell fact from fiction and as far as cable and internet TV there is so much of it now, you'd have to live in a cave and do nothing but bing TV to keep up.

Also you have to be wary of what some people say.    When I bought my first RED I was told by a lot of DP/operators all the problems RED had, though my MX cameras have never stopped working (I guess I jinxed that), even in 101F, dripping sweat weather in Bangkok on very long days.   

But in virtually all cases, all platforms, 10 minutes of usable footage a day will usually get someone or probably a lot of people fired, But as in all image making, it's not the camera as much as the story, what's in front of the lens and the crew working tirelessly behind it.

Oh yea, a proper budget also helps.

IMO

BC
You're right James.
Here is a funny story. When I worked during some time in high-end fashion as an assistant,
Part of my duty was to shoot (at that time with the 5d) small making of on the fly that were not to be commercialised
But for the archives only. This is because of that that I started to get interested in motion imagery. One shooting day, 2 5d refused to work and were sent to Canon's repair. The other cameras
Disponible were not video capable except that someone from the crew had a plastic Pentax that was shooting motion jpeg at 720p coupled with a kit lens and the making of had to be filmed with that...
As an experience, in between shots I was discretly taking some photos when part of the shooting was made with continuous light, which is not the thing to do cause the diva was there and was the only one supposed to frame but he knew it and sort of let me do with a smile like ”ok, do your shit but be discrete”.
(He also knew that I weren't going to exploit those photos for me.)
Then, Days later I was with the mac dude (in this case a datable girl very competent) who was editing the pics for the editorial. I gave her a pen drive with the illegal photos taken with the Pentax and said: ”wait, would you check those also?” if my memory's correct, they were 12mpx only. Maybe less.
The good thing with shooting video at that time is that everybody was grouped arround the tether screens, except the divas and me so I could establish a relation with the models. They were also completly absorbed by their iphone aps in the pauses while I was talking with the talents. Anyway,
Guess what? No differences! I mean, no difference whatsoever with the little Pentax for a non pro viewer.
Why? Because when you got the right crew, the lightning, the good MUAs, the best top models, the great stylists, hair dressers, AD, location bla bla...in short, when you got the high-end budget one shoots with a stone or a shoe and it looks pretty.

That's the secret. The camera/lenses will do nothing if all the rest fails. How many technicaly perfect pics taken with MF had I seen, but the talent was average and in the end the pics don't work and it looks amateur. Take PJ Harvey and she fills the frame immediatly, not being so attractive. She is a pro, she knows how to walk, seduce, use the space, her body language etc.. and that changes the all story. On the contrary of many clichés, if everything else is settled professionaly, one can use a GH5 or a 300 grands camera, it will work the same. And for an audience, nobody will ever notice anything. I doubt the 5000 stops DR and clinical details on the highlights in the background or data rates are interesting for the people, except us. Nowdays too many importance is given to capture devices.
So if there is a proper cine crew, with good actors and good story, creativity, whatever crap that capture it, it could well win at Cannes...(if the edit is good)
Title: Re: THIS, is really good! (The new Blackmagic pocket 4k)
Post by: Rob C on June 28, 2018, 10:56:26 am
Fred, you and Cooter always make my LuLa day.

Rob
Title: Re: THIS, is really good! (The new Blackmagic pocket 4k)
Post by: Telecaster on June 28, 2018, 03:30:11 pm
I've seen PJ Harvey perform a few times. Polly really knows how to put on a show. Besides the songs and the musicianship, both top of class, she's always an eye-magnet.

-Dave-
Title: Re: THIS, is really good! (The new Blackmagic pocket 4k)
Post by: bcooter on June 30, 2018, 08:11:30 pm
snip.........
Then, Days later I was with the mac dude (in this case a datable girl very competent) who was editing the pics for the editorial. I gave her a pen drive with the illegal photos taken with the Pentax and said: ”wait, would you check those also?” if my memory's correct, they were 12mpx only. Maybe less.
The good thing with shooting video at that time is that everybody was grouped arround the tether screens, except the divas and me so I could establish a relation with the models. They were also completly absorbed by their iphone aps in the pauses while I was talking with the talents. Anyway,
Guess what? No differences! I mean, no difference whatsoever with the little Pentax for a non pro viewer.
Why? Because when you got the right crew, the lightning, the good MUAs, the best top models, the great stylists, hair dressers, AD, location bla bla...in short, when you got the high-end budget one shoots with a stone or a shoe and it looks pretty.


A couple of years ago we were shooting in studio and it was a simple shot, though for some reason I couldn't hit the color.    Obviously you can work almost any color in post, though you want the client's to see on the screen, the look you have in your head.  I shot this with profotos and grids and even with the power turned way down, it just didn't have that golden look to match the wardrobe that our stylist had provided. 

So I bumped the ISO and turned off the transmitter and used the modeling lights.  Still wasn't there, regardless of the wb setting and I remembered I had my first 1ds was in the case.  Now we had cameras over 30 megapixels, much newer Canons and Nikons, but the ol' 12mpx had a different look, so I popped a card into it and shot it.   6 frames in I had it.   The client's kept looking at the monitor, thinking this camera tethered well (it didn't) but the look was there, had the DIT person, put it on screen and it was done, other than we shot some different poses.

I'm not saying that new stuff isn't usually better, but it's easy to get caught up in the newest specs, or reviews or just buying something that looks like fun.  Now 12mpx will send most people on this forum crazy but nobody on the client, talent or even crew side cared.   They just liked the photo.

(http://www.russellrutherford.com/final_ingrid_final_gold550.jpg)

You know, until tethering and chasing pixels became all the craze, I always said I should have bought 4 1ds, put two into a lock box and not buy another still camera for 10 years, but I guess I can get caught up as well as anyone.

So Fred, I understand your story well.

Thanks

BC
Title: Re: THIS, is really good! (The new Blackmagic pocket 4k)
Post by: HywelPhillips on July 24, 2018, 04:36:38 am
Hywel, which lenses give you acceptable autofocus with your A7r3?

I’ve found the lens choice to be pretty important with the Mk2 version. The Sony/Zeiss 55 works pretty well; the Sony 28 f2.0 nearly as well, but the Sony 50 1.8 is pretty much unusable.

What are your favorites?

I only just saw this, sorry.

Like you I find the Sony/Zeiss 55 and Sony 28/f2.0 work well. The 85/1.4 GM is ghastly at video AF. The 35/1.4 is OK but not as good as the 55 and 28.

The 70-200 f/4 and 24-70/f/2.8 GM work well for me too.

I've got a few other lenses but the four I use for video are consistently the 28, 55, 24-70 GM and 70-200 f/4.

Cheers, Hywel
Title: Re: THIS, is really good! (The new Blackmagic pocket 4k)
Post by: John Brawley on August 05, 2018, 02:06:57 pm
Edmund,

I think you've got your numbers a little mixed up.    When you hear that three major A- to B+ list actors on a worldwide cinema release are given no time for rehearsal, 15 minutes for lunch and the day is 14 hours minimum, I can promise you more than 10 minutes of useable footage is produced.   

I know nothing about shooting the new black magic pocket, though have heard reports good and bad though I don't think a lot of people have shot production with the new BM pocket camera which when fully kitted out with cages, recorders, EVF etc, will end up being medium large in size.   It seems to me it's targeted as a b/c cam, drone cam, action cam, for tight spaces, or for someone whose budget only allows for it as even the first bmpcc shot a pretty file, though quite small in comparison to super 35.

I also don't see it targeted as a competitor to the pana GH5, which is a very feature rich camera for the price, just a different look and as you say with IS more of a one man band documentary camera, though panasonic did a good job of packing in a lot of stuff in a little package.

The thing I do know is a good DP can take a lot of cameras ranging from $80,000 to $5,000 and get great results as long as they have the set up time and are up to speed on the system and of course the resources in post for color and masking and if needed effects.   


I recently shot a pilot for Fox in Chicago.  The director is very very well credentialed and visually astute. 

I could have shot with pretty much any camera platform I wanted.

I talked to the director about the visual approach he wanted for the show.  And I came up with a test.

We staged some scenes in the style of what the show would be.  I then blind tested four camera platforms and had them go through a grade at Light Iron with their senior colourist.

We tested Alexa Mini, DXL, Helium and the Ursa Mini Pro.

The director chose the UMP after the first screening of the test footage. I just labelled the cameras A / B / C and D.  Before disclosing what he'd chosen I made him go back and watch it again and we talked in a lot of detail about what he liked and didn't like about the different cameras.

He stuck with his original choice and it turned out to be the UMP.

This guy shot a bunch of BTS footage if you trawl his feed you can see us at work with UMP's.

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bl0VaJtloUR/?taken-by=kevinotterness

Now, TV drama. 

The show I'm on now has three full time camera operators.  We shoot about 5-9 pages per day on average though some days are bigger and some are less.  We had a day of stunts recently that involved three different helicopters landing with 50 extras.  That was 2 mins of screen time.

5 days a week, for weeks at a time we shoot 5-9 pages of script per day.  That's a lot of work.  We have 8 shoot days per episode plus one day of second unit. 6 of those days are in studio (where you tend to go faster) and 2 days are out.

That's 9 days to shoot an hour of TV drama.  This is typical for network TV drama.

A high end Netflix show like stranger things shoots a single episode over 14 days and sometimes more.

10 mins of screen time in a 12 hour shoot day is going pretty fast.  Anyone who thinks that it's easy or slow is welcome to come visit my set.  In that scenario, actors are worked very hard, especially the leads who usually have to be there long before call for makeup.  They're expected to know their lines, that is, memorise pages of dialogue and action that changes every day, and because we're a procedural medical show, they have to look like they're doing surgery correctly with the right implements.  How long does it take for you to put on latex gloves ?

JB

Title: Re: THIS, is really good! (The new Blackmagic pocket 4k)
Post by: Chris L on August 06, 2018, 06:33:32 pm
I recently shot a pilot for Fox in Chicago.  The director is very very well credentialed and visually astute. 

I could have shot with pretty much any camera platform I wanted.

I talked to the director about the visual approach he wanted for the show.  And I came up with a test.

We staged some scenes in the style of what the show would be.  I then blind tested four camera platforms and had them go through a grade at Light Iron with their senior colourist.

We tested Alexa Mini, DXL, Helium and the Ursa Mini Pro.

The director chose the UMP after the first screening of the test footage. I just labelled the cameras A / B / C and D.  Before disclosing what he'd chosen I made him go back and watch it again and we talked in a lot of detail about what he liked and didn't like about the different cameras.

He stuck with his original choice and it turned out to be the UMP.

This guy shot a bunch of BTS footage if you trawl his feed you can see us at work with UMP's.

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bl0VaJtloUR/?taken-by=kevinotterness"

Thanks John. I followed that insta link and im going way off topic here: I have the Ursa Mini and love it. But its a big camera to hand hold like you are in that BTS footage. I am curious why you are not shoulder mounted, and if your editor stabilizes the footage in post software. Perhaps this is just a rehearsal? Im learning to be a cinematographer and am genuinely interested in these small details.
Title: Re: THIS, is really good! (The new Blackmagic pocket 4k)
Post by: John Brawley on September 09, 2018, 01:27:39 pm


Thanks John. I followed that insta link and im going way off topic here: I have the Ursa Mini and love it. But its a big camera to hand hold like you are in that BTS footage. I am curious why you are not shoulder mounted, and if your editor stabilizes the footage in post software. Perhaps this is just a rehearsal? Im learning to be a cinematographer and am genuinely interested in these small details.

I guess it's about what you're used to.

The Ursa Mini footprint to me is perfect for this style of hand held work.  And I say style because it's going to give you very very different shots to a shoulder mounted camera.

In the US system, most DP's don't operate, but I love to do it and it's a big part of my work because of how close I am and connected I am to story.

A large camera has to be on a shoulder for hand held or perhaps using a rig like an easy rig because of the weight.

Using a small camera like the Ursa Mini lets me get shots I could never get with a camera that's on my shoulder.  It's the physicality that's different.

Operating is like dancing.  You're taking cues from actors for timing and moving with them in their performance.  This style of operating is what I like to call visual jazz and it allows you to be more responsive to the actor and in the moment to what they're doing.  It also gets you hyper subjective with them, especially useful when you want to "see" what they're thinking about.