Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: benedmonson on September 28, 2006, 08:28:49 pm
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I shoot tons of interiors with my Ebony SW45, but am forced to go digital. Currently looking to stitch shots with my 5D and 35 F1.4 lens, but know this only temporary until I can buy a digital back. With all of the new stuff coming out I'm more confused than ever.
That said, I would love to use my Ebony SW45 which can take a 35mm lens with a small amount of movements. Can the DB's in the market fit onto my Ebony? Am I better off for shooting interiors digitally getting an Alpa, they just seem so damned exspensive, are they worth it. I shoot enough to justify the exspense, they just seem really overpriced.
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I shoot tons of interiors with my Ebony SW45, but am forced to go digital. Currently looking to stitch shots with my 5D and 35 F1.4 lens, but know this only temporary until I can buy a digital back. With all of the new stuff coming out I'm more confused than ever.
That said, I would love to use my Ebony SW45 which can take a 35mm lens with a small amount of movements. Can the DB's in the market fit onto my Ebony? Am I better off for shooting interiors digitally getting an Alpa, they just seem so damned exspensive, are they worth it. I shoot enough to justify the exspense, they just seem really overpriced.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78219\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Have you looked at the Horseman SW-D? It's very neat and takes 24mm lenses. The Phase One backs fit it and the results are excellent.
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Have you looked at the Horseman SW-D? It's very neat and takes 24mm lenses. The Phase One backs fit it and the results are excellent.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78226\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Nick,
Great website, very inspiring! Love it that you shoot the Ebony also, terrific cameras. I will look at the horseman SW-D closely. i already use 3 horseman backs on my Ebony and never a single problem. It's amazing how flat the horseman 6x12 back holds the film. Are you using digital at all now?
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I have an Alpa 12SWA, 24mm, 35mm, 47mm, and 60mm lenses. I use it with an Aptus 75. The combination is great. I bought the Alpa over the Horseman and Cambo because of Dealer support.
In May, when I bought the camera, I could find very little information about the Cambo or Horseman. The Horseman only had 4 lenses available. The Calumet website was a mess. Often it listed lenses for the cambo as having a 3 month wait time.
The Alpa website had a wealth of information. Badger Graphics listed prices for everything. I ended up buying from Fotocare in New York. Jeff is very knowledgeable and helpful. With anything Alpa I wanted to buy from him, he either had in stock, or had it to me, from Europe in 3 days.
Architects like putting large prints on their walls. I would not be afraid to put a 30" x 40" print from this system next to a print from 4x5 film.
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"I shoot tons of interiors with my Ebony SW45, but am forced to go digital. Currently looking to stitch shots with my 5D and 35 F1.4 lens, but know this only temporary until I can buy a digital back."
..."Alpa is Expensive"
So I read..
a) Budget is a consideration
B ) I guess that you subject matter is fairly Static - you have time to use 54
c) Mainly operating inside shooting tethered will not be out of the question
d) I assume you dont have a 35mm lense as it wont cover Film
FIRST I would try 'flat plane stitching' where you use a view camera to create many exposures moving the 5d camera keeping the lense still - these images stitch perfectly
Try a cambo ultima 35 -although there are costs in buyinng it but you can get your longer lenses re boarded so the cost will be comparitively minimal, you will proably need to buy one more wide lense too 35 or 47 (47 has big image circle)
Cost $5000 total?
NEXT I would consider a second hand thethered only screenless back (hass V mount)
Such as the EyelikeM22 or Imacons - find/get made a suitable way of attaching to your ebony, buy a wider lense and use that
COst $8000 total?
Maybe a 'digital view camera' with suitablly fine adjust ment like linhof would be the thing (with a tethered back)
Again to keep costs down you could investigate ALPA or Hoseman and one lense for ultra wide with a 645 system like Mamiya that has a 55 shift lense and regular longer lenses where movements may be less critical
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ALPA is a dream system BUT
-Apart from the XY you cant use it to stitch images so you are limited to an image the size of your sensor - so you can actually get bigger files with a 5d and a view camera
-movements are limited
-Due to it relying on a helicoid on each lense all old View camera lenses go in the bin and imply huge costs 're lensing'
The lack of focus aid means you might end up shooting thethered which negates the protability factor
Given the above theoretical problems I still think ALPA may win in the real world - if you are under commercial shooting pressures stitching etc can be too much of a pain
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For architectural exteriors I use a Linhof M679 with a P25. It's a bit bulky for interiors because you really need wide, clear access right around any view camera to operate it efficiently, and if you're backed up into a corner in order to get lens coverage it can be a slow and clumsy experience.
So for interiors I sometimes use a Canon 5D or 1Ds MkII DSLR with the three Canon tilt & shift lenses. It's a fast, fairly compact solution, and gives pretty good results. But, if you want waist level viewing on the Canon you have to use their cheap and nasty angle-finder. Personally I usually shoot interiors (dometic or commercial, not industrial) with a camera height of about 3.0 to 4.5 feet, and I llke to spend a long time scrutinisinging the scene in the viewfinder, letting my eye adjust to the brightness level and making that mental transistion from 3-D to 2-D. The Canon just isn't a good tool for this way of working.
Most times for interiors I use the P25 on both a Hasselblad 903 SWC (with a ground glass focusing screen) and a Hasselblad Flexbody with regular Hasselblad lenses.
The Hasselblad Acute-Matte focusing screens are a joy compared with the screens on either the Canon or the Linhof, especially with the dedicated x3.3 magnification finder that gives a big, bright and upright image. You can see right into the deepest shadows so just it's like looking at the shot on a lightbox. The 38mm Biogon on the 903SWC has zero distortion and is extremely sharp, there's some vignetting but that's easily cleaned up in Photoshop. For movements the Flexbody offers about 15mm rise and fall and well over 20 degrees of tilt operated from the rear standard.
The Flexbody's other main advantage is that it's a great tool for close-ups, with a 22mm built in bellows extension. So if you tend to shoot a combination of wide establishing shots of a room together with close-up details then it's a viable and competent solution.
Still, everything in photography is a compromise and the Flexbody's main shortcoming IMO is it doesn't allow side and vertical shift in combination. It's also discontinued, but there's plenty on Ebay and they usually sell for under £1,000.
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I just got kitted out with digital. The big lesson I learned is don't buy anything without seeing *exactly* what you are buying working in your shooting situation.
I was given this exact same advice and while I did not ignore it, let the difficulty of getting a proper trial stop me. In the end things are working, but its been quite a long learning curve.
Wides like the 35mm are not that wide when they are on a chip with a slight magnification factor. When you put a wide like a 35 on a VC platform and try to use them in an exacting way with architectural subjects, all view cameras are hard to get in focus. Thats why cameras like the Alpa are so sought after.
I bought the Cambo Wide and it does the job very well. But its important to pick the right lens units and build quality can be variable. I also use my DB on my Ebony with 72mm, and 150mm lenses. This works quite well but is far slower than working with the Cambo Wide.
As for 1DsII. Yes, I have used that on quite a lot of jobs. The other day I opened up a file that I took for a client 2 years ago. My thought... what a shame I didn't take it on the Cambo and Aptus 75! Once you see a file from a 33Mp back taken through a 35XL digitar there ain't no going back.
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Once you see a file from a 33Mp back taken through a 35XL digitar there ain't no going back.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78265\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
How true. Even with my lowly P25's 22mp files you can see it. For me, the Cambo WDS with the 35xl is a very capable solution, and very fast as well.
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Wides like the 35mm are not that wide when they are on a chip with a slight magnification factor. When you put a wide like a 35 on a VC platform and try to use them in an exacting way with architectural subjects, all view cameras are hard to get in focus. Thats why cameras like the Alpa are so sought after.
Good point, I regularly find there's no alternative to using the sliding carriage on the Linhof to stitch two frames together using either a 45mm Rodenstock Digital, or even the 35mm Rodenstock Digital. But in either case the precision required to set up the camera is at the very limits of practicality. The Linhof M679 has geared everything, and I've been using LF for thirty years. But it's sobering just how long it took to adjust my working style to the far greater level of exactitude needed with digital, the results I get today are noticeably better than those I was getting two years ago with the same equipment, mainly because I'm now spending twice as long setting up the focus and camera movements for each shot with digital as I did with 4x5 film.
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I use a Cambo wide DS with a Leaf Aptus 75 back. The Cambo is a very fast and easy camera to set up and shoot on location. I use live video when I need it or just shoot a few frames to get the camera in position. I get slowed down with the Aptus 75 and having to shoot a gain file to solve the center line issue (leaf Center Line) (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=11779). I shoot with a 24xl 35xl and 47xl on the Cambo wide DS. If I need a longer lens I shoot with a 58xl on my Cambo Master pc. I would like a lens in between the 24xl and 35xl.
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"As for 1DsII. Yes, I have used that on quite a lot of jobs. The other day I opened up a file that I took for a client 2 years ago. My thought... what a shame I didn't take it on the Cambo and Aptus 75! Once you see a file from a 33Mp back taken through a 35XL digitar there ain't no going back."
This is my experience except for that my files come from a D2x as well as the Mk II.
The Aptus 75 costs about $600.00/day to rent. Charge that to you clients. It is less than they used to pay for film. The Loan I have ($45,000.00 for the 75, Alpa, and 4 digitars) cost less on a per month basis than I used to spend on 4x5 film, processing, and polaroid. I am saving money by shooting digital.
Also, I feel there a real danger for architecture shooters to talk their clients into the advantages of 35mm digital. It may be hard to go back and say " I know last year I charged you $300.00 a day for shooting with my Canon, but this year thats not good enough and you need to pay $600.00 a day for my new digital camera." It the end this makes you look bad.
One more thing.... with the Alpa-Aptus setup I spend less than half the time retouching than I did with the Nikon or Canon.
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I have an Alpa 12SWA, 24mm, 35mm, 47mm, and 60mm lenses. I use it with an Aptus 75. The combination is great. I bought the Alpa over the Horseman and Cambo because of Dealer support.
In May, when I bought the camera, I could find very little information about the Cambo or Horseman. The Horseman only had 4 lenses available. The Calumet website was a mess. Often it listed lenses for the cambo as having a 3 month wait time.
The Alpa website had a wealth of information. Badger Graphics listed prices for everything. I ended up buying from Fotocare in New York. Jeff is very knowledgeable and helpful. With anything Alpa I wanted to buy from him, he either had in stock, or had it to me, from Europe in 3 days.
Architects like putting large prints on their walls. I would not be afraid to put a 30" x 40" print from this system next to a print from 4x5 film.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78232\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Eric,
Thanks for real world information. Your setup is my dream machine. Dealer support is a very important issue when dealing with this stuff. How is distortion when using the 24mm lens with objects at the top or edge of the frame?
Also, now with the new Alpa XY our, would you consider it over the 12SWA, which I might add is a very sexy looking camera!!!
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hmm....
why isn't a smaller view camera a solution ? for example the arca swiss 6x9 with a DB. You can still use all the digitar lenses on it (can you ?) but still get more movement compared to the alpa... just wondering.
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"I shoot tons of interiors with my Ebony SW45, but am forced to go digital. Currently looking to stitch shots with my 5D and 35 F1.4 lens, but know this only temporary until I can buy a digital back."
..."Alpa is Expensive"
So I read..
a) Budget is a consideration
B ) I guess that you subject matter is fairly Static - you have time to use 54
c) Mainly operating inside shooting tethered will not be out of the question
d) I assume you dont have a 35mm lense as it wont cover Film
FIRST I would try 'flat plane stitching' where you use a view camera to create many exposures moving the 5d camera keeping the lense still - these images stitch perfectly
Try a cambo ultima 35 -although there are costs in buyinng it but you can get your longer lenses re boarded so the cost will be comparitively minimal, you will proably need to buy one more wide lense too 35 or 47 (47 has big image circle)
Cost $5000 total?
NEXT I would consider a second hand thethered only screenless back (hass V mount)
Such as the EyelikeM22 or Imacons - find/get made a suitable way of attaching to your ebony, buy a wider lense and use that
COst $8000 total?
Maybe a 'digital view camera' with suitablly fine adjust ment like linhof would be the thing (with a tethered back)
Again to keep costs down you could investigate ALPA or Hoseman and one lense for ultra wide with a 645 system like Mamiya that has a 55 shift lense and regular longer lenses where movements may be less critical
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ALPA is a dream system BUT
-Apart from the XY you cant use it to stitch images so you are limited to an image the size of your sensor - so you can actually get bigger files with a 5d and a view camera
-movements are limited
-Due to it relying on a helicoid on each lense all old View camera lenses go in the bin and imply huge costs 're lensing'
The lack of focus aid means you might end up shooting thethered which negates the protability factor
Given the above theoretical problems I still think ALPA may win in the real world - if you are under commercial shooting pressures stitching etc can be too much of a pain
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78236\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Morgan,
Thanks for the great info., exactly the line I've been thinking on. Shooting tethered not a problem as I used to do it with the Canon 1Ds and 24TSE lens hooked up to my G4 laptop. I eventurally went back to 4x5 and med. format film scanned when I got tired of the poor performance of the Canon WA lens. I'm very excited to use the flat stitching method this next week with my new RRS Pano rail and 35 F1.4 prime. I already had the Gitzo 1325 lege with the leveling base and B1 ballhead so the investment was minimal to try stitching until I decide on which camera system and DB to buy.
I think for now 22mp would be enough and may look into one of the screenless backs. As far as the Ultima 35 package I think I'll pass, have already explored this package and would rather spend that cash toward Alpa or other system.
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How true. Even with my lowly P25's 22mp files you can see it. For me, the Cambo WDS with the 35xl is a very capable solution, and very fast as well.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78268\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Eric,
with your combo how wide does it relate in 35mm terms? 24mm?? I use the 90mm mostly on 4x5 and love the look it gives, hate using really wide lens, but there is not choice with such small sensors!!! I guess you can't have your cake and eat it to...
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benedmonson..
By flat stitching I mean using a view camera where the lens stays still and the DSLR sensor is moved around behind this
This is not what happens with the RRS gismos
I dont think they can create the same effect
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Ultima 35 - no I wouldnt spend the money either but try to make something on using the same principal (using an old SINAR or Cambo)
BUT it is cheap if it allows you NOT to buy a MFDB
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rueyloon (mini view camera V alpa)
I think ALPAs theory is if you can get away with just rise/fall then introducing a view camera system with tilt just adds more bits that will 'flop around' (in terms of 1000ths of a MM) creating a risk of the image being a bit tilted when you want a straight one
One disadvantage of a mini view camera is it is unlikely to have space to stitch two images
For architecture I would aim for a rise fall system only
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It is a quaestion of balancing your budget, required movements, speed of operation etc
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For your information I purchased a SinarP2, Linhof sliding back and Digitar 47 Lense which seemed to me to be the Best combo of ease, quality and COST
(you can get a 44mp file from this)
My depressing reality is that due to client pressures (speed) I tend to use my H1 and 35HC and attempt to correct its weakensses (CA and no movements) in PS
Dont disregard a MF SLR system especially one that has a 55 shift lens (mam rolei??)
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One comment on 22MP being 'enough' I would say that cropped to 'post box size' 6.17 format it is not 'enough'
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Here is some more Jibber Jabber about the Alpa...
I got these numbers from an Excel document on the Alpa website...
The first number is for the Aptus 75, 2nd for Full frame 35mm, and the 3rd for 4x5.
24mm Digitar = 17mm 135 = 65mm on 4x5
35mm Digitar = 25mm 135 = 95mm on 4x5
47mm Digitar = 34mm 135 = 120mm on 4x5
60mm Digitar = 42mm 135 = 150mm on 4x5
So its only $13,000.00 to replace your one 17-40mm $1200.00 Canon zoom lens. The prices between Alpa, Cambo, and Horseman are similar, but can vary alot from item to item. You have to price the entire system.. Camera, lenses, viewfinder, groundglass, back adapter.... because on one item you will save several hundred dollars and on the next you will loose that much.
http://www.alpa.ch/en/solutions/solutions.html (http://www.alpa.ch/en/solutions/solutions.html)
http://www.alpa.ch/en/faq/knowhow/ALPA-CFL-Calc.xls (http://www.alpa.ch/en/faq/knowhow/ALPA-CFL-Calc.xls)
A few weeks ago I walked for two days in New York City with the Alpa-Aptus 75 and 4 lenses in a messenger back. I carried a small Gitzo 1258 carbon fiber tripod in a separate bag. When I travel the enitre system fits in the Think Tank Airport Extreme bag and can be carried onto a plane. The messenger bag then gets used for the laptop (which I did not carry in the city). I cannot imagine doing this with my 4x5 or even with a Linhof M679cs. There is a certain amount of my work where I would benefit from the Linhof having swings, tilts, and lateral shifts, but I felt like the trade for greater portability was worth it.
I have read that there is great difficulty using swings and tilts with MFDB's and large format lenses. The movements required for a 24 or 35mm lens are soo small that you really need a precision geared camera such as the Linhof. My guess would be that an Ebony or other manual view camera could be near impossible to control.
-Eric
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Eric,
Thanks for real world information. Your setup is my dream machine. Dealer support is a very important issue when dealing with this stuff. How is distortion when using the 24mm lens with objects at the top or edge of the frame?
Also, now with the new Alpa XY our, would you consider it over the 12SWA, which I might add is a very sexy looking camera!!!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78336\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Here is a sample from the 24. There is no distortion with any of the Digitars. The perspective with such a wide lens becomes extreme, but all the lines stay very straight.
[attachment=998:attachment]
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I know Eric likes his Alpha as much as I like my Cambo Wide DS (http://www.cambo.com/Html/products_photo/set01/english/internet/Item510.html). I have no problem getting parts or lens with calumet. Either camera will get the job done efficiently. I just wish Schneider had a few more lens to work with. I guess they have a few more lenses this week New Lenses (http://www.cambo.com/Html/news/set01/english/internet/Item22.html) I would like to see a 30mm lens
Cambo Wide (http://www.cambo.com/Html/products_photo/set01/english/internet/Item510.html)
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Most times for interiors I use the P25 on both a Hasselblad 903 SWC (with a ground glass focusing screen) and a Hasselblad Flexbody with regular Hasselblad lenses.
The Hasselblad Acute-Matte focusing screens are a joy compared with the screens on either the Canon or the Linhof, especially with the dedicated x3.3 magnification finder that gives a big, bright and upright image. You can see right into the deepest shadows so just it's like looking at the shot on a lightbox. The 38mm Biogon on the 903SWC has zero distortion and is extremely sharp, there's some vignetting but that's easily cleaned up in Photoshop. For movements the Flexbody offers about 15mm rise and fall and well over 20 degrees of tilt operated from the rear standard.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78244\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Gary, with your flexbody what lenses do you use to get 15mm of shift or rise? I have heard the 40mm can not shift so is it the 50 or 60mm? It is just shift / rise / fall i am interested in..not tilts etc.
I am looking at shift options on the v system and wondering if the flexbody is shift usefull only wiht the 60mm lens am I better off using the 40mm on the pc mutar that gives the same shift with the lens becoming a 56mm. (plus it would save me on the 40mm lens!)
Thanks.
Marc
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A question seperate to my post above.
I am possibly looking for one of these compact mf shift cameras (alpa, horseman, cambo etc) to go alongside an mf slr system...for its shift capabilities with mf quality as well as superwide lens with digital (24mm)
At times I may be using hired digital backs but will also at times use it with a film back when I need it's shift capabilities over the mf slr camera.
From experience does anyone know how these cameras perform with both digital and film backs.(the film back could be a typical 67 film back or could even be a hasselbald film back.
Thanks.
Marc
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Gary, with your flexbody what lenses do you use to get 15mm of shift or rise?
The Flexbody is capable of 15mm of rise and 15mm of fall, plus 28 degrees of tilt each way (more than some view cameras I've used). The Hasselblad Arcbody had nearly twice as much rise but no fall, for interiors I'll use fall nearly as much as rise, plus the Arcbody optics just aren't as good as the regular Hasselblad lenses.
Current 37mm x 49mm digital sensors are of course smaller than the 56mm x 56mm film dimensions that Hasselblad lenses are designed for (61mm image circles versus 80mm) so there's quite a bit of shifting capability built into every Hasselblad lens. Plus some lenses just happen to have bigger image circles than the 80mm minimum.
Hasselblad gave some guidelines for shift capabilities with a 40mm x 50mm mask they supplied with each Flexbody, which is of course similar to digital sensor dimensions. Using the frame Hasselblad say the 40mm can be shifted 7mm, the 50mm can be shifted 12mm, and the 60mm and longer lenses can all be shifted by the full 15mm.
I find these are a bit too cautious with the P25, I get at least 12mm of shift with the 40mm IF (however Hasselblad's measurements were with the earlier 40mm lens) and the full 15mm with all other lenses. If you're interested in a particular lens that I happen to have I can set up some shots at different levels of rise and you can see if they meet your requirements. For practical purposes I usually work on the assumption that even though I'd like 50% of the long dimension in shift capability, in reality I rarely use more than 30%, so the Flexbody works fine in this respect.
I don't want to fall into the trap of becoming tediously evangelical about kit I happen to use, so let me also point out that there's no side shift or side tilt capability with the Flexbody. And unlike with a T&S lens you have to use a focusing screen and then replace it with the digital back for each shot, so fast it ain't.
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Thanks for the very detailed information Gary.
The slowness of the flexbody is no problem to me..i am used to shooting with view cameras and my subjects are never going anywhere.
I am looking for a simple shift option to have with a mf slr kit for the times I can / do not have full view camera with me and have not been able to get a horseman / cambo system etc for wider shifts.
For the shift option I am looking for primarily film (so don't worry about the tests with the db..but thanks for the kind offer) )as well as digital backs so will need a set up that allows for good shift with full 66 film back so is it does look like the 50 or 60mm lens for that.
I will look into / ask hasselblad about shift limits with various lenses with their film backs on the flexbody and then see how it stacks up against the pcmutar with 40mm in terms of movement / lens focal length...and then choose.
Thanks again.
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Marc, with the 6x6 film back the Flexbody has more limited shift capabilities, 0 with the 40mm, 5mm with the 50mm, 10mm with both the 60mm and 80mm, and 14mm with the 100mm and longer. If you knew you were cropping down to 645 you'd get a useful additional margin.
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I got my Alpa and all my lenses (Schneider 24, 35, 60) and accessories from Badger. I recommend them very highly over the other (limited) options. Their prices are the best, and they are very responsive to support questions. But then again, I'd much rather do business with a reputable online company than a brick-and-mortar dealer.
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I just came back from cologne after a very interesting day at the photokina.
I'm also looking for a wide angle possibility for my Hassy-V mount Phase back.
I had a look at the usual suspect, and discovered some others too, i personally did not know of yet:
-ALPA: they showed their new XY camera, shifts in both directions, huge!, and probably more expensive then their other modells.
-Horseman: a new version of their camera is available as mentioned in another tread yesterday, it takes a mounts, the shifts are not geared, probably less expensive then the other competitors.
-Cambo: maybe my choice, geared shifts, great feeling, don't know if there's the possibility to mount film backs (for holiday snapshots, but i don't know if i should bother;-) ) A small version, without shifts is also released!
-Gilde 6x17: what a great camera, huge machine, build like a tank, beside of the film back possibility, they showed a P45 mounted on a slider that looked very much like my phaseone flexadaptor(same color dots). Yes, you can stitch with your C1 software. Prices probably in the ALPA galaxy;-)
-Arca-Swiss: two new cams, still prototypes, first the R m3d,then the R L3d, can't remember the difference.Looks ver much like the Cambo.
Oh yes, like the Gilde, you can tilt the lens a few mm!
-Fotoman: a new contender? Looks like a Horseman, with DIY Helical Focus Mounts you fix betwenn body and lens. No details, but got the informations that a second, similar body will follow later too.
Amazing stuff, I hope we will learn a bit more soon about these new cntenders
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Thanks for the recap tom_l.
Did Fotoman adapt its gear for a digital back? If so that would certainly be worth investigating, given that their lens compatability includes Schneider, Fuji, Nikon and Rodenstock.
Alpa 12 XY, with vertical shift 70 mm (+45/-25 mm) and horizontal shift 50 mm (r/l 25 mm) USD $6,444.00 sans finder.
JBM
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Hi JBM,
that's what the guys at the small Photoman stand told me, no information available yet, not even on their website, it seems to be a kind of DIY thing. they claim to have a tolerance of 1mm when mounting your lens. Hmm, the nice guy at Gilde told me he would be able to produce a slider coming with the camera that allows 1/100 mm tolerance.
But i think these 2 cameras will be at the opposite end of the market anyway.
ALPA price, ehh, yes, thank you!;-)
Are there other contenders I forgot to mention?
Tom-
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some info here on the fotoman shift option etc..not sure if this is new to their website.
I will try and find out also if either there 54 or 612 cameras can take any lenses under 30mm and also take film and digital backs.
http://www.fotomancamera.com/accessories_list.asp#252 (http://www.fotomancamera.com/accessories_list.asp#252)
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Well after many great reply's I think I'm going for in the near future the Cambo Wide DS with the 24, 38 and 47 lens. As for the digital back option, I'm looking at the Leaf Valeo 22wi when they are available refurbished, or another refurbished full frame 22 digital back. I think for what i do, 22 megs is enough for the next 2 years.
If not for this posting I would've not known about the Cambo Wide DS camera, I think from what I've seen it is fantastic!!!
As for trying the stitching with the 5D, I've canned it and am going back to 4x5 witht the Ebony for my interior shoots this week.
thanks for all the reply's and I look forward to contributing good threads to this forum in the near future.
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Well after many great reply's I think I'm going for in the near future the Cambo [{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=78699\")
I think Cambo is a great looking system
Thoughts..
The 24 has a tiny image circle allowing minimal rise or fall - maybe youd be better to go with the 28
The lack of sideways movements mean you cannot stitch restricting you 'only' 22mp
The (new) horseman swd2 allows this [a href=\"http://www.horsemanusa.com/press/PR06092601.pdf]http://www.horsemanusa.com/press/PR06092601.pdf[/url]
You will be throwing away the image circle of the 47 - two upright 47 images stuck together create a really big file with a really nice perspective you could even get a bit of extra width from the 28 if/when horseman make it available
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Just FYI.. Alpa has also added the Rodenstock HR lenses to it's line up.
28, 35, 60, 100.
Their price list is on this page...
http://www.alpa.ch/photokina2006/ (http://www.alpa.ch/photokina2006/)
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I think Cambo is a great looking system
Thoughts..
The 24 has a tiny image circle allowing minimal rise or fall - maybe youd be better to go with the 28
The lack of sideways movements mean you cannot stitch restricting you 'only' 22mp
The (new) horseman swd2 allows this http://www.horsemanusa.com/press/PR06092601.pdf (http://www.horsemanusa.com/press/PR06092601.pdf)
You will be throwing away the image circle of the 47 - two upright 47 images stuck together create a really big file with a really nice perspective you could even get a bit of extra width from the 28 if/when horseman make it available
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Morgan,
Thanks for your thoughts, but unless I'm reading the material wrong the Cambo Wide DS has:
20mm horizontal left
20mm horizontal right
40mm vertical upward
20mm vertical downward
This was taken from the cambo website. this is what excites me so much about the system, unlike the Alpa SWA12 only has vertical shift. I acturally just read an article by an achitectural photographer who loves the ease in which he stitches with the Cambo Wide DS!
The other thing that I like over the Horseman SWD is that it has no geared movements. the Cambo Wide DS is all geared like the Alpa, as you know this makes for much more precise movements when stitching.
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Morgan,
Thanks for your thoughts, but unless I'm reading the material wrong the Cambo Wide DS has:
20mm horizontal left
20mm horizontal right
40mm vertical upward
20mm vertical downward
This was taken from the cambo website. this is what excites me so much about the system, unlike the Alpa SWA12 only has vertical shift. I acturally just read an article by an achitectural photographer who loves the ease in which he stitches with the Cambo Wide DS!
The other thing that I like over the Horseman SWD is that it has no geared movements. the Cambo Wide DS is all geared like the Alpa, as you know this makes for much more precise movements when stitching.
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The Cambo can shift in both direction, yes. Seems my favourite existing system, still handy like the Horseman, but geared like an ALPA.
But I will wait until the ARCA comes out in a few months. The Arca will have a tilt option too. Someone mentioned on a french forum that Arca will finally realease a website soon. It's a shame small companies can't or don't want to invest a few thousand bucks in a website.
tom-
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unless I'm reading the material wrong the Cambo Wide DS has:
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I MUST be reading the material wrong - SORRY
I thought that side shifting was by flipping it on its side (hence loosing up/down)
I didnt think it did both - AT the same time - if it does that makes it sound even cooler !
The lense must stay still and the back move for a proper stitch - if it does this great ...
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The cambo wide ds seems to take both film and digital backs and lenses from 24mm upwards.
Does anyone know if the slightly older cambo wide (non ds version) can take the same back and lens options?
I have emailled cambo but gotten no response.
Thanks.
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from fotoman camera..could be very interesting...
"Our most ambitious product to date, the "D-max" will accept mechanical roll film backs for 6x4.5, 6x6, 6x7, 6x8, 6x9 and 6x12 formats, as well as many medium format digital backs. Offering 25mm of movement in all 4 directions, the D-max will accept standard large format and digital optimized lenses from 24mm thru 400mm."
like the alpa but more affordable.
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I also shoot an Alpa 12 SWA with 24 and 35mm digitars. I am still waiting for the 47 as Schneider is way behind in production. The Aptus 75 is a wonderful back except for the centerfold issue as Eric mentions but I am confident that Leaf will find a viable solution.
The problem with an Arca 69 is that with wide angle lenses even the slightest movement will throw the back out of focus. The geared adjustments really are not fine enough for critical focus and movements. The Apla or Cambowide use helical focus mount lenses which make focusing easy and quick. Also, the 24 can not be focused at infinit oin an Arca 69 and the 35 barely gets to infinity.
Solutions such as the Flexbody are also quite nice.
Good luck in your quest. If you are considering laying out $30K for a digital back another $15K for a good camera solution is the only way to go.
BTW, I see no distortion in the Schenider Digitar 24 and 35 lenses.
Fall off is easily fixed in either LC10 or Raw Developer but In all honesty I have to say that LC10 is not all that slick.
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I have an Alpa 12SWA, 24mm, 35mm, 47mm, and 60mm lenses. I use it with an Aptus 75. The combination is great. I bought the Alpa over the Horseman and Cambo because of Dealer support.
In May, when I bought the camera, I could find very little information about the Cambo or Horseman. The Horseman only had 4 lenses available. The Calumet website was a mess. Often it listed lenses for the cambo as having a 3 month wait time.
The Alpa website had a wealth of information. Badger Graphics listed prices for everything. I ended up buying from Fotocare in New York. Jeff is very knowledgeable and helpful. With anything Alpa I wanted to buy from him, he either had in stock, or had it to me, from Europe in 3 days.
Architects like putting large prints on their walls. I would not be afraid to put a 30" x 40" print from this system next to a print from 4x5 film.
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I usualy use Phase One P45 on my Contax 645 and array of lenses, including some Hasselblad CF/FE with MAM1 adapter. I also own the Apla12W and 12SW and recently just ordered the CO645 adapter so I can use the P45 with Apla. The question is, I have so far only 38mm Biogon and the 48mm Apo-Helvitar, has any tried these two leses with digital backs? Are they performing as good or close to the digitar? Or the new Sironar?
Since mot likely I will continue to use Contax as prime gear until may be Hy6 becomes available then, and only use Alpa for focal length wider than my 35mm Distagon so I have 2 choices, one is the 28/4 Apo-Sironar or going wider using 24 Digitar? Anyone can give some advise?
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On Cambo WDS, the lens moves when shifting horizontally or vertically, not the back...stitching will not be ideal. To change from horizontal to vertical orientation, you remove the back, rotate to vertical and replace. The camera does not need to be put on it's side. In talking to Irwin Miller over at Calumet NY, I was told that film and digital back are not compatible due to coverage issues etc. I would love it to be the case as I still have clients that request film. Irwin is highly knowledgeable and most helpful, if you have any Cambo WDS questions, I highly reccomend calling him at Calumet NY.
I have been using the 35 and 47xl's with a P25, and am very happy, lcc's and all.
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You have to rotate the Cambo Wide DS if you are shooting with a H mont back! Its a pain in the ass. I had know idea when I purchased the camera I would have to remove the camera from the tripod.
On Cambo WDS, the lens moves when shifting horizontally or vertically, not the back...stitching will not be ideal. To change from horizontal to vertical orientation, you remove the back, rotate to vertical and replace. The camera does not need to be put on it's side.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=80300\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I have the Cambo WDS (Digital). I can't comment on the previous generations but WDS Digital accommodates rise and fall by moving the lens unit and lateral shift by moving the back unit. I have the Contax mount version and the back cannot (currently) be rotated so you have to turn the camera on its side to shoot vertically. I believe the Hasselblad V mount version is the only one whose back can be removed and rotated, due to the square nature of the V mount itself.
For film use it can obviously take a 645 film back, but I can't comment on its compatibility with larger film sizes as I haven't tried this since it would need film-based lenses (in the helical mount) for the necessary coverage and I have an ARCA F69 for that anyway.
An ideal improvement would be for the digital back mounting plate to be re-designed to allow vertical as well as horizontal mounting. This would save a lot of hassle, and allow horizontal stitching (with the back mounted vertically) and the back unit moving laterally, and also vertical stitching (with the back mounted vertically - but with the camera then turned on its side) again using the back unit's movements and thus both methods allowing the lens to stay stationary during stitching, which is necessary for acurate results.
Alternatively have all the movements on the back unit and make the mounting plate rotatable. That way the camera and lens stay put and the back can move and stitch as desired. Most convenient but probably least easy to engineer.
But I digress...... (sorry, back to the Alpa question)
Matt
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A question seperate to my post above.
I am possibly looking for one of these compact mf shift cameras (alpa, horseman, cambo etc) to go alongside an mf slr system...for its shift capabilities with mf quality as well as superwide lens with digital (24mm)
At times I may be using hired digital backs but will also at times use it with a film back when I need it's shift capabilities over the mf slr camera.
From experience does anyone know how these cameras perform with both digital and film backs.(the film back could be a typical 67 film back or could even be a hasselbald film back.
Thanks.
Marc
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