Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Colour Management => Topic started by: Louie on March 13, 2018, 11:56:18 am
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I recently purchased a new i1Pro2 and started making some profiles for my two printers. I am trying out two Red River papers Ultra Pro Satin and Palo Dura Satin as inexpensive proofing papers to proof prints before printing on the expensive cotton rag papers.
I let the targets dry down for a minimum of 24 hours before making the measurements. Even so I notice that the target print is slightly warped and tends to lift up off the reading table in the center. Apparently this is enough so that the edge of the nosecone furthest from the ruler will scrape away thin lines of ink from the paper surface.
These are both relative thin papers, 10mil, I believe and it seems that the amount of ink being laid down is causing the paper to distort. I do not have this problem with any of the thicker cotton based papers.
I opened a support ticket with X-Rite and they have not said one way or another if this is a problem.
I do recall that the previous i1Pro ruler had a slot that held the paper flat on both sides of the row being read. So I even tried placing a ruler on the other side. This helped but does not eliminate the problem.
I suppose I could file down the corner edge of the nosecone and see it that helps but I wanted to see if this has happened to any one else first.
tks, louie
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I recently purchased a new i1Pro2 and started making some profiles for my two printers. I am trying out two Red River papers Ultra Pro Satin and Palo Dura Satin as inexpensive proofing papers to proof prints before printing on the expensive cotton rag papers.
I let the targets dry down for a minimum of 24 hours before making the measurements. Even so I notice that the target print is slightly warped and tends to lift up off the reading table in the center. Apparently this is enough so that the edge of the nosecone furthest from the ruler will scrape away thin lines of ink from the paper surface.
These are both relative thin papers, 10mil, I believe and it seems that the amount of ink being laid down is causing the paper to distort. I do not have this problem with any of the thicker cotton based papers.
I opened a support ticket with X-Rite and they have not said one way or another if this is a problem.
I do recall that the previous i1Pro ruler had a slot that held the paper flat on both sides of the row being read. So I even tried placing a ruler on the other side. This helped but does not eliminate the problem.
I suppose I could file down the corner edge of the nosecone and see it that helps but I wanted to see if this has happened to any one else first.
tks, louie
Flip the paper and read from bottom up.
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Flip the paper and read from bottom up.
No need to flip the paper, the GUI isn't going to change.
What you (what the OP) can do is measure from the bottom Up-wards but after each row, the software will attempt to move the next row down from the top, no way around that direction! So the user must manually move the outlined area to be measured to the next upward row from the last. Easier to show than speak of: bottom (last) row measured, UI (outline) moves to top. Manually move it to the seconds to last row, measure and continue upwards.
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6 of one, half doz of other.
But alternative choices always appreciated.
Thanks, Andrew
Edit...rereading your method...am I correct that you would now, for each new line, need to not only move the physical line, but also move the line on the screen? If so, my method is slightly easier as you do not need to futz with the line on screen...moves automatically
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6 of one, half doz of other.
Not really....
You're welcome.
No.
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Not really....
You're welcome.
No.
Help me understand the “not really”
And the “no”.
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All explained in post #3.
What product are you using to measure the target?
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All explained in post #3.
What product are you using to measure the target?
Same as OP
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Same as OP
He didn’t state. So how do you know?
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Not using now of course, but, from memory....
Upright target, start at top
Align bar at 1st line, read (back and forth), UI moves down, you move bar down
Upright target, start read at bottom
Align bar on last line, move UI bar to last, read, UI moves to top, you move bar up one, you move UI down to next to last line....then, you move bar up, UI bar now on last line, you move up one, etc.
upside down target, start at bottom (line #1)
UI is on line #1, bar is placed on line #1 (bottom of upside down page), read, UI moves to #2, you move bar up to line #2, read, etc.
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He didn’t state. So how do you know?
He stated i1Pro2. I assumed iProfiler. What did you assume?
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Not using now of course, but, from memory....
Ah.... No wonder you're confused. ;)
upside down target, start at bottom (line #1)
UI is on line #1, bar is placed on line #1 (bottom of upside down page), read, UI moves to #2, you move bar up to line #2, read, etc.
Try it, then tell us what you see.
He stated i1Pro2. I assumed iProfiler. What did you assume?
I try not to assume.
You asked me to help you understand. Actually try turning the target upside down, even move the bar to the bottom and scan that last (now top) row. What happens to the bar?
There's a screen capture for you below!
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Ah.... No wonder you're confused. ;) Try it, then tell us what you see. I try not to assume.
You asked me to help you understand. Actually try turning the target upside down, even move the bar to the bottom and scan that last (now top) row. What happens to the bar?
There's a screen capture for you below!
No screen capture
I have often used the upside down case. Have you tried it or are you working from memory....because I believe you usually use isis and haven’t played with a puck in years.
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I have often used the upside down case. Have you tried it or are you working from memory...
I don't work from memory. I tried this just today (twice actually) to produce the screen captures also produced today. Look at the date/time of the captures!
You and I can read from the bottom up, but the GUI doesn't care.
...because I believe you usually use isis and haven’t played with a puke in years.
A massive assumption on your part! I build all kinds of profiles for clients that can't fit into an iSis. I don't play (with puke or otherwise). ;D
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I don't work from memory. I tried this just today (twice actually) to produce the screen captures also produced today. Look at the date/time of the captures!
You and I can read from the bottom up, but the GUI doesn't care. A massive assumption on your part! I build all kinds of profiles for clients that can't fit into an iSis. I don't play (with puke or otherwise). ;D
Did you just test one page or a multi page target? If you read line 20 of a multi page, it flips to page #2. Your method works, but needs a lot of manual adjustment of UI and is prone to errors. Turning page over works,...no problem.
So you like to make fun of spell checker (puke), even after it was corrected (puck)....so be it. Ha, ha.
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Did you just test one page or a multi page target?
Man, you are the master of CWOBaT (colossal waste of bandwidth and time).
One page. Makes no difference; the behavior is the same.
What I made fun of is your assumptions about the instruments I use professionally and your memory.
Now maybe one of us can get back to helping the OP who probably ran away from this for good reason.
Your method works, but needs a lot of manual adjustment of UI and is prone to errors.
Only for posters who are prone to errors. That's been clearly illustrated.
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Man, you are the master of CWOBaT (colossal waste of bandwidth and time).
One page. Makes no difference; the behavior is the same.
What I made fun of is your assumptions about the instruments I use professionally and your memory.
Now maybe one of us can get back to helping the OP who probably ran away from this for good reason. Only for posters who are prone to errors. That's been clearly illustrated.
Your habit of attacking others to try to win discussions has a tendency to turn them into arguments and is what is really dreary.
I tested reading line 20 (1-20) on a page and it flipped to page 2. Do you agree that iProfiler does that.
While you can switch back to page 1 and then read line 19, move the UI line from 20 up to 18, read, move UI line from 19 up to 17, etc, it is a PITA.
Easier to flip page, read line 1, UI auto drops to line 2, etc.
Does you xRite software work different?
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I had the problem on some papers using the I1Pro 2 table. Turned out to be a combination of things.
1. I was pressing down too much towards the front of the I1. Best to use a light touch towards the back of the device. You also get more even scanning though that's much less important than in the earlier I1Pro which didn't use quadrature to keep track of position. The quadrature resolves to .5 mm so the software always knows where the I1Pro 2 is.
2. I once tried scanning on a portable, plastic table. It didn't have an even surface. I quickly went to using the scanning table on a very flat marble countertop. Big reduction in print hits.
3. However, there was still the occasional I1 Pro contact and scraping. Wound up putting a single layer of Scotch invisible tape along the ruler surface the I1 registers against. Not the bottom. You don't want any tape anywhere touching the charts. Then trim it to the ruler with a razor. It's a bit less than .001" thick and that, together with the above eliminated any problems.
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I agree with flipping the Chart. It's easier and less error prone.
Works for me.
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When I first started with the i1Pro2, I had some difficulty with it not being a smooth slide. This maybe unique to me, but after much trial and error, I found a solution the works...for me, at least.
Instead of having the unit in front of me, sliding in the left to right direction, I turned the unit 90°, so it now slide close to far from me. This allowed me to more easily apply uniform pressure with both hands, avoiding any binding or possible tilting of the “puck”. (Tilting, which might be some cause of the OP’s scratches)
John
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Your habit of attacking others to try to win discussions has a tendency to turn them into arguments and is what is really dreary.
Attacking or just pointing to confused, contradictory, assumed and wrong text out for your readers? You have every right to be upset (at yourself). Let's just examine your own posting here so I can ask you to make up your minds. I'll add formatting to focus your attention if possible:
6 of one, half doz of other.
Then the FUD comes:
Your method works, but needs a lot of manual adjustment of UI and is prone to errors. Turning page over works,...no problem.
If you have trouble walking and chewing gum at the same time, just chew gum. :D
While you can switch back to page 1 and then read line 19, move the UI line from 20 up to 18, read, move UI line from 19 up to 17, etc, it is a PITA.
When people (amateurs usually) state that color management is difficult (PITA), I have to ask, compared to what?
Your text vacillates as the example above & below illustrate. I therefore will not ask you what you want to be when you grow up.
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Hi all,
Thanks for all the feedback. It seems that this is a some what common problem given the range of solutions offered.
Just to clarify I am using i1Profiler to read my charts.
I have not tried reading from the bottom but I am not sure that will help. I think that the papers in question simply lift up too much in the center to clear edge of the nose cone. And even with being very careful to use light pressure when scanning as also suggested by X-rite customer service I still get some scratches especially in the middle part of the paper.
It seems to me that the current design may simply not able to handle paper that is unable to lie almost perfectly flat on the table. The previous ruler design that provided a slot for the nose cone was better in this regard. But maybe that design had other issues.
I am also experiencing a problem with the read button occasionally sticking and causing the software to go into bell ringing seizures at the end of a line until I can get it unstuck. So the device is going back today to have the button and the ruler looked at under warranty.
Ill post back what I hear.
tks, louie
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Attacking or just pointing to confused, contradictory, assumed and wrong text out for your readers? You have every right to be upset (at yourself). Let's just examine your own posting here so I can ask you to make up your minds. I'll add formatting to focus your attention if possible:
Then the FUD comes:If you have trouble walking and chewing gum at the same time, just chew gum. :D When people (amateurs usually) state that color management is difficult (PITA), I have to ask, compared to what?
Your text vacillates as the example above & below illustrate. I therefore will not ask you what you want to be when you grow up.
Another attack, rather than responding with any fact. You just need to feel and be perceived as so superior (particularly “amateurs usually”).
I pointed out that you method was difficult to use based on UI , whether single or multi page, and you didn’t like it.
What you call “vacillating” was just my attempt to nicely offer an alternative and not just directly say you were wrong. When I say I am working from memory (which I later verified after your attacking), I am just admitting that I could be wrong, which you obviously are never willing to admit. Very “Trump-ian”
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Very “Trump-ian”
Ouch and touché ;D
I am just admitting that I could be wrong, which you obviously are never willing to admit.
Another assumption. Enough said.
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Andrew and John,
You both have provided useful information so please just agree to disagree.
Thank you both.
-louie
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You both have provided useful information so please just agree to disagree.
+1
Doug's trick is a good one but you may also wish to try what are called "Mouse Dots"
http://catalog.cshyde.com/viewitems/-c4-ngen-mouseware-gear-mouse-tape-discs-1/4-ngen-mouseware-gear-mouse-tape-discs-mouse-discs
I've used them on my iO table, under the guides for the i1 Pro Spectrophotometer because like your issue, it was dragging onto the prints depending on how far it moved from it's home base. You just stick them onto the surface of the plastic and the Teflon 'dots' slide very nicely and add just a tiny bit of height depending on how many you apply. Very inexpensive and perhaps a more permanent fix.
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Thanks these look like a possible solution as well.
Doug's trick is a good one but you may also wish to try what are called "Mouse Dots"
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I recently purchased a new i1Pro2 and started making some profiles for my two printers. I am trying out two Red River papers Ultra Pro Satin and Palo Dura Satin as inexpensive proofing papers to proof prints before printing on the expensive cotton rag papers.
I let the targets dry down for a minimum of 24 hours before making the measurements. Even so I notice that the target print is slightly warped and tends to lift up off the reading table in the center. Apparently this is enough so that the edge of the nosecone furthest from the ruler will scrape away thin lines of ink from the paper surface.
These are both relative thin papers, 10mil, I believe and it seems that the amount of ink being laid down is causing the paper to distort. I do not have this problem with any of the thicker cotton based papers.
I opened a support ticket with X-Rite and they have not said one way or another if this is a problem.
I do recall that the previous i1Pro ruler had a slot that held the paper flat on both sides of the row being read. So I even tried placing a ruler on the other side. This helped but does not eliminate the problem.
I suppose I could file down the corner edge of the nosecone and see it that helps but I wanted to see if this has happened to any one else first.
tks, louie
I had this happen once but turned out be I profiled the paper with the wrong black in. It was a baryta paper and by mistake I printed using matte black ink. After i corrected this no scratching occurred.
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Hi, Just wanted to add an update on my situation. After a long hiatus I resuscitated my trusty 7800 and installed a fresh supply of UltraMax II Pigment Ink (https://americaninkjetsystems.com/product-category/ink/ultramax-ii/). That is a whole story in and of itself, but after finally clearing all the clogged nozzles I printed out a new profile target chart.
I waited overnight for the chart to dry and started scanning it the next day. It started out fine but as I was at the bottom if the first page I noticed that there was some burnishing on the surface of the paper. As I continued on the second page a scratch appeared in the center of the page. As I continued the scratching got worse and quickly ruined the target. Arrrg...
After a thorough investigation I came to the following conclusion. There is a design problem with the ruler and table that can easily lead to excess friction between the ruler and target as you scan the target. Also that there is a workaround that can be used.
First on the bottom of the clear plastic nose of the ruler there are several circular indentations that I presume are left over from the molding process. On one of these in particular there were some very slight sharp edges that were big enough to start scratching the page. I could also feel several other rough spots on front edge. I think that those were nicks caused by the ruler not being firmly secured in the carrying case. The fix to both of these was using some 600 grit sandpaper on a flat block to gently polish the bottom edge. In the future I am going to wrap the ruler in a clean micro-fiber cloth when storing in the case.
Next to test my fix I put a undamaged target page in the table and started to gently move the ruler back and forth. Sure enough the nose stopped scratching but after several forward and back movements there was severe abrasion of several columns in the chart. The bottom of the heal of the ruler was smudged with ink (see attach picture). Now I'm getting pretty discouraged.
By using a steel ruler (verified to be straight with with precision straight edge) I found the following. The bottom of the heal of the ruler is dead straight. However, there is a bulge in the center of the my table of about .003" or .004" right at the joint where the table folds for storage. This is sufficient to cause extra friction to burnish surface of the target print when scanning the target by sliding the ruler. When scanning I am moving the ruler by by holding it at each end.
However, when I was testing to see if fixed the first problem I was using one hand in the center of the ruler to slide it back and forth. And therefore pressing the ruler directly onto the bulge in the table. This immediately started to abrade the surface of the print and as soon as there was pigment particles trapped between the ruler and paper it acted like rubbing compound.
In the meantime I have figured out a workaround so that I can generate the new profiles in need to start using my printer. I had to get the heal of the ruler up off of the print while scanning. It also needed to be done in a way that allows for different paper thicknesses.
The solution was simple enough. I cut 1/2" x 11" strips of paper and started stacking them on the edge of the table. It ended up taking 3 strips on each side to raise the center of the ruler high enough to clear the bulge in the table. This allow me to scan my first target and make my first profile. The initial prints of the DigitalDog tip and tricks (http://digitaldog.net/tips-and-tricks.html) gamut test files look very good even though my initial target contained only 400 patches.
I hope that will be useful and will help someone else.
I contacted X-rite support and they want me to send the whole system back to them for evaluation. I plan to do that after I get all the necessary profiles built. They also suggested that I wait at least 24 hours before trying to scan the target. I will try that also but I suspect that the bulge in the table is just to big and I will see damage to the print unless I have the shims in place. Just a note that with the shims in place I scanned the 400 patch target only 3 hours after it was printed with no damage to the print.
-louie
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My experience: After seeing scratches on some measured target prints (especially on matte papers after multiple measurements of the same print) I placed a sheet of silicon paper under the ruler.
Worked out fine at first, but finally I realized that the additional distance between the i1Pro's head and the measured paper sometimes led to deviant measurements.
In the end I accustomed myself to
- using > 9mm patch size
- taking care for flat surfaces to measure on
- checking smooth gliding of the i1Pro along it's ruler before I start my measurements
- using gloves and light touches when using the i1Pro (it's sensitive to temperature changes).
Those steps minimise the occurrence of scratches inside the i1Pro's 5mm measurement area.
I do measure my target prints at least twice and compare the resulting measurement files in PatchTool or i1Profiler. Normally, this procedure reveals problematic measurement areas rather quickly.
Since I follow this procedure, I realize that my manual measurements by itself lead to deviations of up to 1 dE76.
So I can live with that. Using my multiple measurement files for averaging when creating my icc profiles improves their quality as well - win win situation ;-)