Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Landscape & Nature Photography => Topic started by: Tubas on September 27, 2006, 07:58:06 am
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Hi people,
It is time to stop lurking and become exposed in the shadows. So.. Hi all. Nice to be here.
My work as a pilot lets me see the world from a different perspective. However that perspective has technical problems.
Images get very blue, and very washed out. The light can be very harsh, and at other times the light levels are marginal at best. With low light comes noise. How can I minimise that? Can CS2 help me here? I am also shooting through 4 inches of "glass" and that acts like another filter.
Colour balance: At altitude, all is blue. I manage that in PS. But could I make better selections in camera.
Any advice would be gratefully received.
My Photos: (http://www.digital-nomad.com/airborne.html)
The Nomad
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Which camera you are using? Also what settings or is it set at default. It has been some time since I shot from the cockpit, but light changes so radically from a scene to scene, that I have reservation whether one can standardise a setting. If you are using Nikon than try their NX software & shoot RAW, otherwise Capture One should be able to take away all the color aberrations.
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I am curently using a nice new shiny Nikon D80. I have been trying some shots in RAW, and others in JPEG.
I have settled on RAW for the moment with sharpening turned off. White balance set to cloudy.
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Boeings and Airbuses obviously make better camera platforms than Lances and 182's! Gorgeous aerial shots--has me yearning for the sky again; if only I had time to fly!
Not sure how much UV is being filtered out by the cockpit windows, but that could be a factor in the blue cast you notice at that altitude. Worth a try using UV filtration if you aren't already. I was going to suggest a polarizer but as I recall both instrument panels and cockpit windows' plexiglas are themselves polarizers, which could lead to some funky results.
One other olde-tyme suggestion: put a rubber lens hood on your camera and use it as a seal against extraneous reflections/glare as you press it against the window to shoot.
And who's flyin' that thing while you're shooting pictures? At least you have your priorities right!
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I am not using a UV filter. Defo worth the try. Using a polarizing filter is not going to work sadly. You get bizzare patterns in the glass.
I like the rubber lens hood idea. Great idea. Reflections are the bane of my life.
Many thanks.
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Make sure you also catch Julieanne Kost's "Window Seat":
Interview with Julieanne Kost (http://photoshopnews.com/2006/04/27/an-interview-with-julieanne-kost/)
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My spouse has a small plane, and I've had major problems with "blue haze" in most photos through the plane window. I find that to get decent pictures without the blue haze I have to do one of two things:
(1) Pick my lighting angles very carefully - most have blue haze, but some, especially pointing mostly downward away from the sun, don't.
(2) Take infrared photos. I have a DSLR custom-converted to full-time IR, and you get much better clarity in IR. No blue haze. You're stuck with B&W photos, though, not color. You could do the same with IR film in a film camera.
I haven't tried the soft rubber lens hood approach Mike mentions above to avoid window reflections. That might work well too. I'll try it next time!
Lisa
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I'll second the suggestion to get a copy of Window Seat by Julieanne Kost -- it has an appendix showing how she processed the photos, with "before" and "after" examples.
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Lovely images, Tubas. Keep at it.
I agree, window reflections are probably the biggest problem you face that's unique to your location. White shirts, right? I actually asked the flight deck crew to put on their jackets once because of this. The captain was not amused.
I'd take a two-foot-square piece of black cloth and keep it in with your Jepp charts. You can drape it over your head, surrounding you and the camera, or you can make a donut out of it and wrap it around the lens and use that to "seal" the lens to the window. Camera departments and grips use a cloth called "Duvateen" that's especially designed for this. It's very black. Otherwise, some black velour or velvet would work.
You see some extraordinary stuff. Please keep sharing it with us
Peter
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I shoot through Boeing laminated glass also (the 74 is so bad I see 3 sets of taxi lights at night, I follow the middle ones). I have found using PSCS2 New Adjustment Layer-levels to reduce the dynamic range - increase contrast (i.e. cut through the haze). And New Adjustment Layer-Color Balance to correct the blue tint (usually means more green by adding yellow)
Marc
[attachment=988:attachment][attachment=987:attachment]
Forgot to add 2 thoughts
1. UV filters are supposed to deteriorate the image quality on digital cameras, but I have not experimented from the air, let me know if you try it.
2. Also warming filters get you close sometimes, PSCS2 New Adjustment Layer-Photo Filter
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Thanks to all of your very helpful replies. It has given me alot to think about.
Some great ideas for keeping those reflections at bay. "Window Seat" has been ordered via Amazon.
and yes, Boeing does not make it's glass photo friendly. Just getting the flightdeck windows cleaned is an epic in itself.
I have tried the warming filter in CS2. With mixed results. I found the clouds looked brown. There is special glacial blue that you can get, and warming seems to kill it. But it still needs warming... a conundrum.
Now looking for a big black cloth. Wife thinks I am going mad. :-)
Tubas
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Boeing does not make it's glass photo friendly. Just getting the flightdeck windows cleaned is an epic in itself.
Tubas
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HA! You should see how hard it is to get 'em cleaned back in coach!
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[attachment=994:attachment]
I wish I had one of these for the house!
Marc
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Guys, really enjoying the aviation-photography chat here; the pictures are a nice side-benefit!
Seriously, though, in these days of tension and heightened security in the air, has anyone at your employers, the TSA, FAA, etc ever given any of you flyboys/-girls any grief about shooting pictures from the cockpit?
Keep 'em coming, and thanks for sharing.
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Guys, really enjoying the aviation-photography chat here; the pictures are a nice side-benefit!
Seriously, though, in these days of tension and heightened security in the air, has anyone at your employers, the TSA, FAA, etc ever given any of you flyboys/-girls any grief about shooting pictures from the cockpit?
Keep 'em coming, and thanks for sharing.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78256\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Other countries are not as paranoid as the US. So no problems taking pictures around the airport. I just took a picture of the crew outside the aircraft on the ramp in Nagoya and the security guard just looked at our ID's and let us continue.
Marc
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I tried the experiment UV vs. Protection filter
Hazy day in Hawaii shot of Haliakala from my Lanai on the Big Island
Canon 5d, 70-300is RAW then Tiff then Jpeg
It looks to me like the UV filter removes some detail and contrast as reported by others. A bit hard to see the difference on the jpeg but more obvious on the original tiff
Marc
5023 is with UV filter, 5024 is with protection filter
[attachment=1006:attachment][attachment=1007:attachment]
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5024 looks better to me. The UV filter strips detail out.
My view is thet I am shooting through 4 inches of plexiglass. Normally scratched and dirty. One more "glass" between me and the subject is one too many,
So I do not use a UV filter. Your experiment would seem to confirm that a UV filter is not a solution.
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Thanks to all of your very helpful replies. It has given me alot to think about.
Some great ideas for keeping those reflections at bay. "Window Seat" has been ordered via Amazon.
and yes, Boeing does not make it's glass photo friendly. Just getting the flightdeck windows cleaned is an epic in itself.
I have tried the warming filter in CS2. With mixed results. I found the clouds looked brown. There is special glacial blue that you can get, and warming seems to kill it. But it still needs warming... a conundrum.
Now looking for a big black cloth. Wife thinks I am going mad. :-)
Tubas
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Speaking of conundrums, working in LAB might be helpful with blue low contrast situations as described in Photoshop LAB Color--the Canyon Conundrum by Dan Margulis. In the book, he describes how he handles blue haze in mountain shots, and the same methods might work for aerial shots.
High radius low amount sharpening also may help cut through haze.
BTW, I think the shots you posted are striking.
Bill
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747-400?
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747-400?
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The window washing picture is a JAL 747-300, Our Honolulu base (non Japanese crews gets the left overs! They will be retiring in the next couple of years)
Midway Atoll, photo taken by one of our pilots Mario Azpura:
[attachment=1014:attachment]
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The window washing picture is a JAL 747-300, Our Honolulu base (non Japanese crews gets the left overs! They will be retiring in the next couple of years)
Midway Atoll, photo taken by one of our pilots Mario Azpura:
[attachment=1014:attachment]
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79078\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
So that's where it all happened, June 1942--turning point in the Pacific war!
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quote=mikeseb,Sep 29 2006, 03:28 AM]
Guys, really enjoying the aviation-photography chat here; the pictures are a nice side-benefit!
Keep 'em coming, and thanks for sharing.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78256\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
[/quote]
31N 150E, 38,000 ft, 13 Oct 06, Sun Dog (halo)
Marc
[attachment=1037:attachment][attachment=1038:attachment]
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Fantastic shot of Midway and four-holer. Compliments to Mario. Give that guy a union card
Peter
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Another question.
I took this photo the other day. In very low light conditions. It is of the moon with the sun setting behind me. iso @ 200. 1/50s @f/4.5.
(http://www.digital-nomad.com/images/mooncircles.jpg)
The rings? I assume it is my lens? But why, and can I do anything about it?
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I tried removing the blue cast and expanding the high key restricted tones from an airliner window seat shot of Greenland recently and got warm toned rocks and slightly green sea. I like the effect, don't know if that is what it really looks like from closer. See the result at
North of Godthaab (http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1260).
scott
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Another question.
It is of the moon with the sun setting behind me. iso @ 200. 1/50s @f/4.5.
(http://www.digital-nomad.com/images/mooncircles.jpg)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=80619\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I wasn't there so it is just conjecture, but isn't the moon a half moon (not a full moon) with the sun coming from the right? Hard to figure how the sun was behind you. But then you were there.
The moon looks over exposed. Solid white. No detail.
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howiesmith:
The picture was taken last week or so, about 100 miles south of Stockholm. I was tracking North East going to Tokyo. So the sun was setting behind my left shoulder.
You are correct. The sun was not behind me. It was almost behind me.
As for the phases of the moon with reference to the position of the sun. No idea. But I seem to remember a half moon at night, with no sun at all.
I agree it is overexposed. I did that to show up the rings better.
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Those rings are unusual. They're centered on the frame, not the moon, so it's not connected to just that subject matter. It's remotely possible they're interference rings (Newton's Rings)
Does this problem appear on this frame only?
Did you have a filter right next to the lens? Or two filters installed at once?
Is this a JPEG? Or a RAW conversion?
If it's a RAW conversion, did you do considerable processing on the image? ie large density or colour adjustments?
I'd try and duplicate the problem by shooting again under similar conditions.
IME, the only time you can corrrectly expose both the moon and the foreground in the same shot is a full moon right on the horizon when the sun has just set and the moon's not yet at full brightness.
P
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I have cleaned several telescopes in the past but have yet to take a lens apart. Perhaps they are the internal baffles. I shined a flashlight into my 24-105 IS and you can see some of the internal baffling. Perhaps the light was just right to expose the baffles?
Marc
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howiesmith:
I agree it is overexposed. I did that to show up the rings better.
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I'm sorry. I thought it was a photo of the moon, in which case its proper exposure might be important. ("I took this photo the other day. ... It is of the moon with the sun setting behind me.")
You said the sun was setting over your left shoulder. I have no reason to doubt you. Did you turn toward the moon when you took the photo? The sun was definetly about 90 degrees to the right of the moon in this image. Doesn't seem to go along with flying north east at sunset. At sunset, the sun would have to be to the west. That might put it over your left shoulder as you fly north east. So were you facing north east, looking at the moon being lit by the sun coming from the west at sunset? Maybe you turned almost around to shoot south, which makes sense with the sun in the west and the moon lit from the right. I'm all turned around now.
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Hi people,
Images get very blue, and very washed out. The light can be very harsh, ... . I am also shooting through 4 inches of "glass" and that acts like another filter.
Colour balance: At altitude, all is blue. I manage that in PS. But could I make better selections in camera.
Any advice would be gratefully received.
My Photos: (http://www.digital-nomad.com/airborne.html)
The Nomad
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=77963\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The sky from the ground is blue because of scattered light, blue being more easily scattered. Shadows are are lit by scattered light and appear blue or cool for that reason.
At high altitude, the sky above is blackish (even black if you go high enough), not blue. From an F4 at 65000 feet, the upper sky is black. Not much to scatter light from space back to your camera. The moon and other objects in the upper sky are lit by pure sunlight, and shouldn't look blue. Harsh, yes. Unless you are shooting near toward the horizon and through some extra air. It also depends on the direction relative to the sun you are shooting. Sunsets are red beause the blue is scattered out by the air. Shooting object toward the horizon and sun are redder.
There is a movie technique called "day for night." The images are made in the day, under exposed to look dark and shot with a blue (passes blue) filter. That is suppose to look OK because objects at night are illuminated by scattered blue light. Dim and blue.
The blue stuff should be associated with shooting down and images being illuminated with scattered light. A UV filter might help, but freuently they are "warmered" (added magenta) to reduce blue. Not just UV.
I have taken images using only UV light. There was a 10 stop filter factor and it was impossible to see thought the filter. The images were fine, but I concluded not much of the total exposure is from UV (10 stop filter factor). I think your problem is scattered blue light.
Have you checked your camera/lens/airplane window combo for sensitivity to UV? You may need a magenta warming filter instead of a UV.
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I think I may have found the solution to the rings.
When I apply the "Vignette" filter the rings appear. Not to sure why, but they do.
Did you turn toward the moon when you took the photo? The sun was definetly about 90 degrees to the right of the moon in this image.
The photo was taken out the right hand side window, and slightly behind us. So that angle would make the setting sun be behind my left shoulder. Left shoulder as I sit in the left hand seat....
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I think I may have found the solution to the rings.
The photo was taken out the right hand side window, and slightly behind us. So that angle would make the setting sun be behind my left shoulder. Left shoulder as I sit in the left hand seat...
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Starting to make sense now. You were flying north east and took the photo looking south. That looks right with the image. Sunset in the west and to the right. Depending on how much you turned your head and in which direction (clockwise or counter clockwise) to look south (to the airplanes right and slightly behind), the sunset may have been almost anywhere with respect to your body position.
After looking at the image more, the entire image may be over exposed. Was your camera set on auto exposure with no compensation for it being low light? The image doesn't look like low light, but more normal or over exposed.
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Sorry all, this is getting more complicated than intended.
Here is a copy of the original image.
(http://www.digital-nomad.com/images/ringsraw.jpg)
As I said, whilst working on the image, the rings appeared. I fully appreciate that the image is pushed. And the image is not the finished image. My question relates to the rings.
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Could the rings be flare caused by the very thick window? Light might bounce between the front and back window surfaces several times before the flair becomes too faint to see. When the image is dark, they are barely noticible. When lightened im photoshop (increased exposure, sorta) they are easier to see. Because the window is relatively far and unattached from the lens, no diaphram image is formed.
If so, I think you may be done, since rolling the window down seems to be out of the question. The window, regardless of its price, may be acting like a cheap filter. It may not be coated like a photo filter to reduce internal reflections.
Just a guess.
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I really don't know why you are having trouble shooting through cock pit windows hell I open them get clear shots.
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Certainly you get reflections from inside the widow layers. Especially the front window. The heating elements also produce stripes. They also have a gold film to cut down reflections. It is the more I think about it, not the best "lens" to be shooting through. But the view is worth it. :-) I will experiment more and see what happens.
Thanks for all of your input.
Thanks to howiesmith. Some real thought provoking ideas.
stanjan0: Once apon a time I used to fly the Twin Otter. You could open the window! And did. Nice way to cool off in the summer.
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Certainly you get reflections from inside the widow layers. Especially the front window. The heating elements also produce stripes. They also have a gold film to cut down reflections. It is the more I think about it, not the best "lens" to be shooting through. But the view is worth it. :-) I will experiment more and see what happens.
Thanks for all of your input.
Thanks to howiesmith. Some real thought provoking ideas.
stanjan0: Once apon a time I used to fly the Twin Otter. You could open the window! And did. Nice way to cool off in the summer.
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I had a go at altering a couple of your images to try and eliminate the blue haze