Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: Roger_Breton on March 04, 2018, 01:25:21 pm
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I'm about to throw the towel on this 7 years old printer.
It's never seen heavy printing, by no means.
Had to unclog it many times over the years, using Epson Maintenance application on the PC.
But seems like it's been less and less capable of resurrecting my printer.
This time around is the worst.
I confess I attempted more than one Ink Eject/Ink charge cycle.
So, here I am about to throw this machine in the dumpster...
Latest nozzle check (from left to right) shows perfect C, VM, PK, LK, OR and GR.
LLK, Y and LC are showing but very faint lines. VLM is gone.
Did I damage the piezo through my multiple Eject/Charge cycles?
Been reading about this possibility but the fact remains that it's next to impossible for me to diagnose the printer as it is.
Naturally (Murphy's law), I'm almost out of LLK, Y, and VLM. I still have a full LC cartridge.
Further testing (Ink Eject/Charge) would require more ink.
But I'm reluctant to buy $$ ink (even "compatible" inks) to put on this printer.
Any suggestions?
FWIW, I think I'll experiment with add'tl Ink Eject/Ink Charge using only cleaning fluid?
Nothing to lose.
I don't want to disassemble the head like I did many years ago, it's quite messy and I still need ink for testing at the end.
Breaks my heart. Everything is working fine, mechanically...
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I suspect that a lot of these situations with Epson's are caused by crud and caked ink on the print head surface rather than internally clogged nozzles. If you are about to trash the printer, there's nothing to lose by physically cleaning the print head surface. The technique is to shut the printer off, turn it back on, and quickly pull the plug. That leaves the carriage head free to move along the rails. Then dose a baby wet wipe (they are nicely lint-free) with a liberal amount of windex. Place it on the platten, and gently push the head over the wet wipe. Leave it there for a while if you like. Then slide the head past the wet wipe and you will be surprised how much ink is on it! "Rinse and repeat" with a new wet wipe until it is only showing fresh clean ink spots, not all the black gook. At that point, start your printer up, do a nozzle check, and maybe it will call for another cleaning cycle, but you should begin to see real progress. You might still need one more or two more rounds with baby wipes, but I've managed to rescue both an Epson 3880 and a Surecolor P400 with this technique. They would have gone to the trash otherwise since neither was responding to repeated and very ink wasteful cleaning cycles. The P400, for example, was showing a stubborn red ink channel with only half of the red channel firing properly, as if half the nozzles all in a row were totally dead, and unresponsive to the normal heavy cleaning cycle despite brand new red ink cartridge. But the wet wipe technique and a little patience brought it back from the dead! The 3880 had a cat hair stuck in the gunk! No amount of Epson printer progressive cleaning cycles was going to dislodge that cat hair, but the wet wipe did.
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The majority of the times people think that their Epson heads are dead they aren’t.
What I would do is buy some of the less expensive refillable ink carts from MIS ( ink supply.com ) and fill them with the pink flush fluid by doing an initial fill. Both inkjet mall and mis sell this fluid. I know the cone stuff works very well and it looks like mis is now selling the same thing, thought I haven’t used that brand of fluid.They even have it that comes loaded with the flush fluid. Leave this solvent fluid in the system for two to three days. Then do another initial fill. At that point start doing nozzle checks. If you see progress, you should, start running a multi tonal value purge target ( do a search online for that) to flush out the lines of any remaining gunk. This pink flush fluid has saved many an Epson nozzle and printer. But you can’t do it half ass, like putting it on the cap station and expecting that to do anything significant. You have to do initial fills. Some one gave me an Epson 4000 that has no nozzles printing at all . I’m going to try to revive it. This 4000/series needs to be used every week or this happens eventually. Trying to clean things out using expensive ink won’t get the job done.
I'm about to throw the towel on this 7 years old printer.
It's never seen heavy printing, by no means.
Had to unclog it many times over the years, using Epson Maintenance application on the PC.
But seems like it's been less and less capable of resurrecting my printer.
This time around is the worst.
I confess I attempted more than one Ink Eject/Ink charge cycle.
So, here I am about to throw this machine in the dumpster...
Latest nozzle check (from left to right) shows perfect C, VM, PK, LK, OR and GR.
LLK, Y and LC are showing but very faint lines. VLM is gone.
Did I damage the piezo through my multiple Eject/Charge cycles?
Been reading about this possibility but the fact remains that it's next to impossible for me to diagnose the printer as it is.
Naturally (Murphy's law), I'm almost out of LLK, Y, and VLM. I still have a full LC cartridge.
Further testing (Ink Eject/Charge) would require more ink.
But I'm reluctant to buy $$ ink (even "compatible" inks) to put on this printer.
Any suggestions?
FWIW, I think I'll experiment with add'tl Ink Eject/Ink Charge using only cleaning fluid?
Nothing to lose.
I don't want to disassemble the head like I did many years ago, it's quite messy and I still need ink for testing at the end.
Breaks my heart. Everything is working fine, mechanically...
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I'm about to throw the towel on this 7 years old printer.
It's never seen heavy printing, by no means.
<snip>
Any suggestions?
In November of last year, I replaced my 4900 with a P800. Smartest thing I've ever done. Not one teensy clog since. I know I'm giving up some gamut, but on balance I'm fine with that.
If I printed every day, I'd be fine with the 4900.
Jim
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Every Epson technician I've ever discussed it with vigorously warns to NOT use Windex on an Epson print head. One I know uses Simple Green, but I've seen one view suggesting even that should be avoided. These chemicals can destroy the print head. You are perhaps better off using this resource for both procedure and materials: Marrutt USA (https://www.marruttusa.com/printer/support/epson-stylus-pro-4900-help.php#bull) They appear to have accumulated a lot of experience in this area and the reviews seem to be on the whole positive; I have not used it, so I don't have a first-hand opinion.
As for the printers - the 4900 has a varied reputation. The printer was designed for high volume use in a "production environment" - i.e. running most of the time. As you know, it's built like a brick s..thouse exactly for that reason. Used in this way, from what I hear, the satisfaction level is high. The satisfaction level is much lower for people making much more limited use of them. I've been using its successor for almost a year now. I've printed a total of 760 sq.ft. with it so far, which is not a whole lot, but some at least every few days. It has been performing well - there are deflected nozzles periodically that clear-up easily with one Normal selective clean cycle that takes little time and from what I'm told, very little ink. As such, I think so far the 5000 is a big improvement over the 4900 in respect of moderate to low volume usage even though it too is designed as an industrial strength production machine. The build quality is similarly robust. The image quality is as good as it gets - no compromises on gamut or anything else. Resolution is terrific.
I would suggest, as you appear to have nothing to lose at this stage, perhaps try the Marrutt approach - not a huge investment and from what I've read non-destructive, but I suggest you also do your own research. If that doesn't work, consider replacing it with a 5000 if you think you will be using it at least every several days. For longer intervals of non-usage, you may be better off with a P800.
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I did invest in refillable cartridges at some point, as that was the only way to introduce cleaning fluid in the system.
I might give inkjetmall Piezo Flush cleaning a try but I have been using a supposedly specially-created inkjet cleaning fluid.
It is transparent and "bubbly". It cost big bucks. First time I tried it, I thought it worked wonder.
FWIW, I purchased two new Maintenance Tanks earlier today.
I tried a new Ink Eject / Ink Charge using only cleaning fluid using my refillable cartridges.
But I could not do a final Ink Charge with what I had left in my Epson ink cartridges.
So I ordered a new 200ml Yellow cartridge I got for $40 off eBay. I know, it's dated 2016. I know!
It's going to allow me further experimentation.
I might consider taking the head apart, soaking it in cleaning fluid. Somehow, the paper towel trick under the print head has not done much to me.
I'm very tempted not to put any more time in this printer and go the easy P800 route. For my relatively low printing volume, it's probably best.
Thank you ALL for the moral support and sharing :-)
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2016 unopened can still be usable. But from all you say it's sounding to me as if it may not be worth too much more sweat and you're in for a new printer.
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Well, I did what I had to do, I decided to give the printer another chance... So I ordered ink and extra maintenance tanks, and rolled up my sleeves. With the help of Epson Ajustment program, I did a few cycles of Ink Eject and Ink Charge. You can see the result is the image "Before cleaning.jpg". Yellow and LLK were not coming back well, and VLM was a problem. No amount of Power Cleaning would help -- naturally...
So, today, I opened the head (see "Holding the head.jpg"). Didn't see anything suspicious? I cleaned each "ink port" by directly injecting cleaning solution. I was encouraged by the fact that I was seeing what looks like a "ribbon" of solution flowing on the other side of the head, meaning to me that the head was not clogged. So I made sure I cleaned the head as best as I could and inserted it back into the printer.
The result? Everything looks good except that darn VLM. In case you wonder, I put in a brand new VLM cartridge. I did do a few power cleaning on the VLM/LC pair, at that point, to no avail. I'm about to throw the towel :(
I was wondering, perhaps, using a different cleaning solution?
BTW, I had a few "Ink cartridges errors" while changing from my refillable cartridges to my normal cartridges.
Not a good sign.
Thank you for supporting me :-)
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The "AFTER" result actually looks worse than the "BEFORE" result which suggests to me that the cleaning solution is interfering with the ink. Normally successive iterations of clean-print-clean (with ink, not cleaning solutions) is what works best, doing no more than three rounds, then letting the printer rest overnight. After some days it should all come back to normal unless there is head damage. But in your case it looks to me as if you may also need to expend more ink making sure the cleaning agent is thoroughly flushed out of the print head.
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Mark,
Do you suggest that there is some amount of residual cleaning solution in the head?
You wrote "success iterations of clean-print-clean (with ink) is what works best"...
Are you suggesting I do a few iterations of clean-print-clean with ink?
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Mark,
Do you suggest that there is some amount of residual cleaning solution in the head?
You wrote "success iterations of clean-print-clean (with ink) is what works best"...
Are you suggesting I do a few iterations of clean-print-clean with ink?
It could be that there is residual cleaning solution - obviously I can't know for sure - just a possibility.
Iterations of clean-print-clean-print with ink - yes.
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Thanks for the suggestion, I probably have nothing to lose if I can't get over this VLM clog...
What about Piezo-Flush? From InkjetMall? I'm about to order a bottle?
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The whole purpose is to use this procedure to get over your VLM "clog" - or for that matter any "clog". BTW, do you know for sure whether your problem is really nozzles blocked with dried ink, or is it air in the lines, or is it pressure-related, or is it printhead damage?
I've never used Piezo Flush, and cleared many seriously deflected nozzles without such materials, so I have no idea what its ingredients are or whether it works safely (i.e. no short or longer-term damage to the print head).
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Thank you Mark for your comments.
Please take a look at the attached photos of the refillable ink cartridges I use for Ink Eject/Charge.
First, notice that I chose not to fill each cartridge to capacity. I figure that the ink is being "pumped" by a vacuum in the channels, so cartridges don't need to be filled to capacity. Right or wrong?
Second, as I had my doubt, this morning, about the needed volume of cleaning solution in each cartridge, I decided to inject an additional 20 ml of cleaning solution. The photos show the appearance of these cartridges with that additional 20 ml. May not seem enough volume? I could not find any information to that effect.
Third, notice the cleaning solution is no longer transparent but slightly colored. I think that's normal.
Fourth, what worries me, now, is the presence of "white foam" in each cartridge? This was caused by hastily injecting the cleaning solution with a 10 ml syringe. I didn't notice I was creating this foam until too late.
Question: should I empty each cartridge and carefully refill them making sure that there is no foam created? I'm afraid that "foam" will turn into air bubbles in the lines and create more hardship for unclogging my printer?
What do you think?
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I decided to order a 700 ml bottle of PiezoFlush.
Will let you know how that worked.
As you noted, Mark, anything in the ink distribution line could wreak havoc, air in the tubes, air in the ink assembly, air in the head, and I have no way to diagnose the problem. I'm considering giving Epson a call ...
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I Roger,
I had recommended that you adhere to a particular kind of cleaning and printing cycle with ink and do that for no more than three cycles per day for several days to see whether it clears everything up. I don't know whether you have done that and it failed, but instead of relating your experience implementing that suggestion, you are sustaining your interest in cleaning fluids. That's fine, it's up to you of course to do what you think is best for your situation, but unfortunately, much as I would like to, I can be of no assistance whatsoever when it comes to cleaning fluids because I have never used any of that stuff. Piezo Flush is very expensive, so I suggest you call Epson about it before spending the money.
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Mark,
The money is gone and the stuff is on order. The reason I have not yet experimented with straight pass-through of inks is that I don't believe that the ink itself as any "cleaning" power? Maybe your experience shows otherwise but I hate to expend more ink (that I'm going to lose anyway, the moment I transform this printer into a boat anchor) when I consider the ink not to have any cleaning power. I appreciate you take the time to help with your experience. I want to experiment with this PiezoFlush and if that does not work, as a last resort, I'll try passing straight ink through.
(I have not called Epson yet as I'm still a little frustrated by the product even though I know I'm probably responsible for not having exercised the printer enough, even though I tried to print regularly with it)
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Passing ink through is the safest and best way of cleaning it unless there is something really major wrong that isn't fixable by liquid running through the head. Anyhow, will be interested to hear of your experience using the Flush once you get it and use it. Cheers.
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OK Mark. I will give your suggestion a try in a few minutes... What have I got to lose?
Meanwhile, I tried calling Epson support directly -- it's impossible to speak with a real tech specialist.
The lady recommended I take my printer to an authorized service center or set up an appointment for a technician to come at my house...
BTW, the "Epson Adjustment Utility" I been using all these years, paid $29.99 for, to do Ink Eject / Ink Charge, does not come from Epson...
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Not good. There was a time when if one called Epson Prographics support one got people on the line who knew their stuff. Did you call Prographics support using the phone number on the warranty card (regardless if the warranty is expired)?
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I started by calling 905 709 3839 and was greeted by a friendly operator who, while routing my call, gave the "new" direct number for my printer model, (562) 276-1305. That's when "Kay" came on the line. Kay took all my grievances but then put me on hold for five minutes while she "checked" with specialists... See? I could not speak directly with a specialist...
BTW, in an earlier thread, I found some exchange with regards to some "Super strong" cleaning cycle while searching the web for am "INIT FILL" command for the 4900. Indeed, that "Super strong" command is nowhere to be found on the Maintenance Mode menu. I thought there was still a secret power on key combinations to access some "Service" menu but I can't find any. Seems to me the only way to ever access any sorts of "advanced functions" on this printer is through that "Adjustment" utility.
A) Have you ever used that utility yourself?
B) What the situation with the P5000: is the same as the 4900 with regards to "Advanced service mode commands"?
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OK, you started with the Ontario number and they directed you to Long Beach. That's fine. The lady you spoke with most likely did confer with a specialist and she conveyed their advice. That's fine too. You most likely would not have gotten further directly yourself.
Epson doesn't provide users with anything stronger than what we can access directly from the LCD. There are other measures that can be implemented, but those require the Service Application or Service Program whatever they call it (Windows only), and it is not legally available to non-trained people. You need to be an Epson approved tech to have legal access to it. If one visits you, they bring it to your premises on a laptop.
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I followed your suggestion, Mark, "purging" the printer first and "filling the lines" after, using Epson inks (instead of the cleaning fluid). The result is attached below (After cleaning with inks.png). As you can see from the picture, VLM and LC are considerably clogged. The other colors (mostly) are also showing signs of deterioration, and I can't say the printer has not been left unused recently. So that worries me.
With regards to the Epson Adjustment Utility, Kay told me that there is no such thing as an "Epson" program for this model printer and if one such existed, it wasn't made by Epson? I attached a screenshot of that "Adjustment program" for others to see.
At this point, I feel like attempting some Power Cleaning cycles on the VLM/LC pair -- making sure NOT to do successive cycles without printing some images in between, I got that loud and clear.
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Roger, as far as the shot of the nozzle check goes - I've seen worse - there's hope. Especially because you've tinkered with fluid other than ink it could take a while to get this back to normal. It's better to be patient and do these cleanings and printings no more than three in a row per day for the channels needing it. It could take some days for it to clear up under this treatment. Use Power Cleans on the standard LCD menu.
That Epson Service Program you show in the other photo does exist - it's as I mentioned - not meant for you and me, so you aren't going to get any joy from Epson on that one.
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My three 4900 printers were clogged freebies so I had nothing to lose in case of failure. Three years on and they are still printing perfectly after numerous flushings and cleanings with full strength Windex. [/size]
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Could you expand on how you "flush and clean" with full strength Windex?
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Authorized Epson service technicians have told me that Windex can destroy the printhead by eating away at some laminates. Just in case they are right I would be careful about this if it were my printer.
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My three 4900 printers were clogged freebies so I had nothing to lose in case of failure. Three years on and they are still printing perfectly after numerous flushings and cleanings with full strength Windex. [/size]
If you had nothing to lose, that's fine, and perhaps you've been fortunate. Something cited as a risk doesn't necessarily happen on any predetermined timing.
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Mark, I'm not about to experiment with Windex... although I've tried to place a scotttowel sprayed with Windex under the printhead overnight. It didn't do anything for me...
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Not surprising. Your problem is most likely inside the printhead or somewhere down the ink path behind the printhead.
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I traded in my 4900 for an Epson P800 a year ago, and am very pleased thus far. No clogs whatsoever; I believe the technology has improved in the latest generation Epson printers.
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Thnk you for your encouragements, smoothjazz. I might very well purchase a P800 as a replacement.
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Could you expand on how you "flush and clean" with full strength Windex?
I tried more extreme procedures when Epson's recommended cleaning methods failed. With a hopelessly clogged printer what have you got to lose?
Using Windex in refillable carts, I run numerous ink charging cycles, via the service program until all traces of ink are gone. Verify by occasionally printing nozzle checks until only Windex shows. Letting the Windex soak the system overnight is helpful.
Next, run charge cycles with ink until it appears in the nozzle checks. Keep running until 100%. You will use lots of ink and need extra maintenance tanks.
I feel normal cleaning cycles don't push enough ink to dislodge persistent obstructions. The service program ink charging cycle pushes the most volume of ink/cleaning fluid through the system.
My evidence is purely anecdotal, but these methods worked for me many times over a three year period. Be aware of the claimed risks when using Windex.
From the printer control panel:
Normal clean – 3ml
Powerfull Clean – 15ml
Switch Black Inks – 4ml
From the Service Adjustment program:
Ink Charge – 115ml
Ink Eject – 79ml
CL3 Clean – 51ml
CL2 Clean – 18ml
CL1 Clean – 4ml
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I traded in my 4900 for an Epson P800 a year ago, and am very pleased thus far. No clogs whatsoever; I believe the technology has improved in the latest generation Epson printers.
Yes, the technology has improved with the newest models. That said, the 3800/P800 line and 4900/5000 line are different kinds of printers. The P800 is an update from the 3800/3880 line, while the 5000 is an update from the 4900. Between the lines, build is different, print heads are different, intended production volumes and productivity are different, gamut volume potentials are different. The 3800-P800 line is meant for more casual use, the 4900/5000 for more sustained use. Both make excellent prints. Clogging performance is generally thought to be much better for the 3800/P800 line than for a lightly used 4900. Hard to know why without being a printer technologist, but perhaps the difference of nozzles per inch in the printhead may explain it.
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Dear smoothjazz,
Indeed, what have you got to lose? Please allow me to make sure I follow.
By "service program", you mean Epson's Adjustment utility, running on Windows?
By "Using Windex in refillable carts", you mean pure Windex?
By "numerous ink charging cycles", you mean Ink Eject cycles followed by Ink Charges cycles? All in the same day?
By "run charge cycles with ink until it appears in the nozzle checks. Keep running until 100%.", do you mean you keep pressing the Run button with the Ink Charge radio button selected? I did not know more than one Ink Charge cycle would "work" at a time, and you seem to imply that one Ink Charge cycle may not be enough to "fill the lines"? Enough to show on nozzle checks? I sometimes observed that, after Ink Charges, a particular nozzle, like Yellow, would only show faintly while all its nozzles are visible. Could that be related? I never knew how to explain this. As though, the nozzles were not clogged but only "partially showing".
I've gone through 4 Maintenance Tank so far...
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Using full-strength Windex, not ink, I run multiple, back to back, ink charge commands from the Epson service/adjustment program on a Windows 10 computer. I print nozzle checks between each ink charge cycle to check the ink flushing progress.
I use the Ink CHARGE function instead of EJECT because it moves the largest volume of ink (115 ml) and would have the best chance of clearing any blockage. Ink EJECT function only pumps out 79 ml of ink. The goal is to power flush everything from the lines, damper and head assembly.
Continue running the ink charge command (with Windex or cleaning solution) until all ink is ejected. This is verified when you are able to print a nozzle check pattern and only Windex appears on the paper. I my case, it took 5 - 6 of these cycles until the system came clean. I would also mention you have to look closely to see the Windex pattern. It is very faint. In the middle of this process I let the machine set overnight with Windex in the system to help dissolve any clogs.
Next, I use the same ink CHARGE command and refill the system with fresh ink. This initial 115 ml ink charge will probably not push enough ink to fully recharge so continue pumping using adjustment/service commands CL3 (51 ml) , CL2 (18 ml) , and CL 1 (4 ml) as needed, and to conserve ink, until you achieve a 100% nozzle pattern.
Good luck.
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Your ideas make a lot of sense -- thank you, especially the idea of pushing through ink or cleaning solution using consecutive ink charges. In the past, when I ran into my first serious clogging, one Ink Eject followed by one Ink Charge brought back the nozzles as new. That's why, I had difficulty wrapping my head around the idea of "multiple" ink charges. Also, the way you explain how ink charges work, I realize "Ink Eject" are not needed, again something novel to me for the way I modeled this printer in my head.
In Epson's Adjustment program, under what menu do you find CL3, CL2 and CL1?
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I feel your pain Roger, having used all the techniques you've reported on my own 4900. It became increasingly common for me to start a printing session and spend the whole time trying to clear a missing nozzle. I finally gave away my 4900 and replaced it with a Canon 6400. I still prefer the Epson UI and build quality, but I find the print quality of the Canon the equal of my 4900 (I'm not Mark, so my comparisons are not detailed) and, most importantly, I spend no time clearing blocked nozzles. That's not to say the Canon is aggravation free: just this week it asked for a new print head, easy enough if you have the $470 US; upon replacement of the head, the printer demanded a new waste tank, again easy and only $65 US; then it informed me that three ink cartridges were empty!
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Wow! I feel your pain, tsjanik.
I wish I could simply get a color laser printer -- end of discussion -- but nothing comes close to the gamut of inkjet printers :(
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I can report no serious clogs in the year since I ran the last "power flush". The printer continues to work like new. I have successfully used this same procedure on two other machines that I obtained FREE because they had "unclearable clogs.
I bought a $30 chip resetter to end the purchase of always full maintenance tanks. I also buy Epson inks on Ebay and Craig's List at a substantial discount.
I recently obtained a 44" HP Z3200p that I use for rolled paper. Compared to the Epson 4900, the $80 USD replaceable print heads and NO maintenance tank are great. Unfortunately the HP's single sheet feeding procedure is cumbersome so I use the Epson for sheet up to 17".
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I recently obtained a 44" HP Z3200p that I use for rolled paper. Compared to the Epson 4900, the $80 USD replaceable print heads and NO maintenance tank are great. Unfortunately the HP's single sheet feeding procedure is cumbersome so I use the Epson for sheet up to 17".
Completely OT, but by the way, how do find the print quality of the HP Z3200 compares with the Epson 4900 in terms of colour rendition, tonal gradations, black ink shading, resolution of detail?
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Can you tell me where on Ebay you buy Epson inks. Thanks.
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enduser: if I can't unclog my 4900 I'll have brand new cartridges to sell :(
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Update, after more than 10 days from my previous post.
I finally received the Pizeo-Flush cleaning solution from InkjetMall in Vermont.
Had to drain all my refillable cartridges first.
I only purchased a 700ml bottle, at $65 a pop.
I chose to use 50 ml of the solution on each cartridge.
Since my problem was VLM, I only operated on the Left side bank of cartridges of the printer, that the Service Manual call "Full".
First thing I did was to run a Nozzle Check before doing anything -- VLM was completely clogged, rest was perfect.
So, at the suggestion of sportmaster, I first ran an "Ink Charge" cycle expecting cleaning solution to move through the lines.
But there was no change! The Maintenance Tank weighed the same before and after?
So, I took the refillable cartridges out and ordered an "Ink Eject" command.
That made a difference.
FYI, a Maintenance Box/T6190 weighs 239g, new.
After this first Ink Eject cycle, it weighed 292g. So, 53 g or solution was expended out of this procedure, or 53 divided by 6 ink cartridges, in other words, 8.83g per cartridge, which translates to almost 9 ml of solution? Which does not seem like much? Maybe that is part of my problem? Tthe "Pump Cap assembly" does not draw enough ink?
(Another $250 expense...or more? if I so chose to go down that path -- have mercy!)
At this point, I ordered my first Ink Charge cycle, to fill the lines with Piezo Flush.
The result? See attached JPEG (Nozzle Check 3).
LLK, VLM and LC were completely absent, OR, GR and Y were showing.
Of of the nice feature about Pizeo Flush is that it is "colored", in a vivid purple, purposely so that, it helps diagnose Nozzle checks.
At this point, I decided to run a second Ink Charge cycle, something I never attempted in the past on this printer.
The result? See attached JPEG (Nozzle Check 4).
As you can see, all the lines are "printing" except that stubborn VLM.
At this point, before running more cycles, I need to consult the "oracle" (as in the Matrix movie).
I'll send an email to John Cone at InkjetMall to see what he has to say.
It seems I'm right back when I was before ordering Piezo Flush.
Oh! Forgot to mention! I ran into a Fatal Error 1A39 right after doing the second Ink charge cycle.
I was in hot water. I read elsewhere on the Forum about someone's experience and it wasn't encouraging...
I had to shut the printer down a few times, and futs around with the gray ribbon cables.
I was a little desperate but it did work after futsing with the cables. Gracious machine :-)
Now, I reason that I ought to let the printer sit overnight with the lines being filled with the Piezo Flush cleaning solution.
If that does not help, I'll attempt a few extra Ink Eject / Ink Charge cycles.
I suspect the head is not dead and there's air somewhere in the system, perhaps the Ink Assembly?
I don't suppose I can see a huge air bubble in the line? But I find it suspicious that an Ink Eject cycle only drew 53 ml or ink?
That 1A39 error may mean that the printer is doomed anyway? I'm not about to open the printer up and check fuses and what not...
Thank you for reading my post.
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Sorry to hear you aren't out of the woods yet Roger. I'll be interested in any news after your next attempts.
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Having very similar problems with my 4800 and I'm actually able to see large air gaps on my Yellow line as its the top one. How exactly does one purge the air out of the lines?
Thanks,
Greg
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The Epson Adjustment program has an option for "Tube cleaning" but I can't experiment with it because I suspect my refillable ink cartridges are not "Epson's"; each time I try to run the option, I see the reported quality of ink left in each cartridge in ml but since the chip on my cartridge is not Epson's, the option terminates with a message "Not enough solution to perform the selected command". or something like that.
Other than that, I don't know how to purge the lines of air, other than, possibly (yikes!), to take them apart and clean them, and then re-assemble them back.
I attached a copy of the Tube Cleaning interface...
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Seems kind of crazy the amount of air gaps in my yellow line. Its never been a problem until this week.
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Thanks for taking the time to post these pictures who are always worth 1000 words.
If I had so much air in my printer's lines -- hopefully I don't? -- I'd dismantle the tubes to drain them and start over the initial priming. I don't see how that can be done otherwise. At this point, this has to be considered a "mechanical" problem.
Is your Yellow printing at all? Partially clogged?
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Nothing coming out of the yellow - I am printing 17x22 sheets of process yellow C to tried and bleed the air and the bubble gaps seemed to have shifted down the tubes.
I was getting a perfect nozzle check last week and then two days ago I got a total blank yellow on the nozzle check. I then did the Simple Green on paper towel under the print head over night and the next day the nozzle check was horrid all around with still no yellow.
This 4800 I have had since 12/05 and its has such low mileage on it. I would go months of not using it and it would just take a clean or two and back to normal until two days ago.
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If you drop me an email at graxx@videotron.ca I can send you the service manual...
(Mark, I hope you don't mind?)
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If you drop me an email at graxx@videotron.ca I can send you the service manual...
(Mark, I hope you don't mind?)
I couldn't care less :-)
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Greg, you wrote "Nothing coming out of the yellow".
I suspect air bubbles "moves" during an Ink Eject and In Charge cycles.
Have you ever tried these?
Would be interested in hearing others's opinions on the matter...
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Roger - correct nothing is coming out of the yellow. When I print a Processed Yellow I get a very faint light cyan and nothing else.
Here is the before and after using the Simple Green on a paper towel over night.
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Power Cleanings won't help, you need something -- ahem! -- a little stronger.
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Power Cleanings won't help, you need something -- ahem! -- a little stronger.
What do you suggest?
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Scotch and soda - not the cheap local stuff - at least Glenfiddich; the alcohol for dissolving the blockages and the gas for providing the energy to evacuate it. JUST KIDDING GUYS!!! (At your expense, so sorry.)
On a serious note: Simple Green on the printhead is a bad idea. If anything, I would put a pad of distilled water underneath it to see whether it drains any remnants of that stuff.
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Give the Epson Adjustment utility a try.
You may end up in the same place I am?
But at least, in your case, you know what the problem is -- me, I still don't know.
I would be ready to bet big money that, going through an Ink Eject and Ink Charge cycle on your printer is going to rid you of that yellow line pesky bubbles.
Why? Because, in the Service Manual, on page 229, they instruct the user to "Discharge ink" before disassembling the Prinhead, and last time I did an Ink Eject (Discharge Ink), I was surprised to find the tubes completely empty (as far as I could see) before accessing the PrintHead.
That's why, IMO, if you go through the procedure, chances are you'll recover your Yellow line.
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This maybe the last chapter in the life of this 4900 printer.
This morning, when I fired it up, I was greeted with the dreaded Fata Error 1A39.
Nothing I tried worked.
At this point, I don't have whole lotta options. Whatever I do is going to cost me big bucks, replacing parts or taking it to an authorized repair center. Might as well start with a new machine. But I read that the new SureColor P printers all have stringent "protection" against third-party inks and cartridges? And apparently, the units sold in Europe don't have that extra muscles as compared to those sold to America. I guess Epson has a better relationship with Uncle Sam than Angela Merkel... It's going to be a toss-up anyway I go because sooner or later, with my relatively low printing volume, I'm run into the same situation I'm in now with my 4900.
I noticed that, for instance, on the P5000, there exists the same "Adjustment Utility" that I use with my 4900. That's a good thing, but if I can't get refillable cartridges, because of Epson's aggressive "copy protection" against third-party inks and cartridges then I'm basically (fill in the blanks).
The only "hope" for now seems to be the P800 for which there are now "circuit boards" that plug into the printer motherboard to give the user 30 serial numbers for refillable cartridge replacements -- why only "30" is beyond me (it's like the number "42" in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy movie...?).
At any rate, throwing money on the P800 as opposed to the P5000 for me seems to be a more sensible solution. I wish I could buy a Canon, if only to "punish" Epson, but their P1000 has an auto-head cleaning routine that, from my reading, can turn into costly operation, in terms of Maintenance cartridges and inks?
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Roger - time to replace the printer.
The solution is simple to work out:
(1) If you don't print often you don't want a P5000. That narrows the choice to P800 or Pro1000.
(2) If you want a roll holder and a straight through paper feed for very thick or unbendable media, then you need a P800.
(3) If you intend to use Piezography inks you need a P800.
(4) If you don't need those features, the Pro1000 remains a very good contender. For maximum convenience with minimum printing, the Pro1000 makes a lot of sense. User changeable printhead, lots of software for tracking printing costs, making custom media types, etc., very easy paper feeds, makes excellent print quality (but so does the P800).
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Why not the P6000 or 7000 with a set of InkOwl 700ml refillables.
Only $2195 or $2695.
Gives you 24" The chips have now been broken.
The chips cannot be reset but are replaceable with a new $20 chip every time your 700ml cart shows empty.
Change the chip, fill the cart and your good to go.
That is an ongoing cost but it is still better then the P800 board you have to buy.
With 700ml refillables you can choose one of the following dye sublimation, piezography or third party inks.
A 24" printer for only slightly more then a P5000
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It's normally not a great idea to buy more printer than one needs. If Roger only needs a 17" carriage I recommend that's what he buys. He needs to looks at the duty service he'll be demanding of it (volume and frequency of use) and the features he needs, in order to guide that decision. This is in the interest of optimizing ink consumption and maintenance.
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Marck and Dan,
I'd gladly buy a 44" printer if I knew I'd be protected against clogs. But no matter which size I choose, I'll be up that hill at one point or another. As Mark says, I am not a pro photographer and don't sell prints for a living. I have a few customers I make prints for once in a blue moon. Otherwise, I use my printer for color management testing mostly. It breaks my heart that a P800 is limited in terms of the number of RIPs that support it. The 4900 was fully supported by GMG, EFI, Onyx, ORIS and a host of others, which allowed me to "learn" these products at my own pace, experiment, and then competently intervene at commercial printers. That is one of the reasons that would make me lean, you see, toward a P5000 -- or maybe a P6000, so that I can continue enjoying specialized CMYK to CMYK transforms for proofing. But since buying an inkjet printer is akin to buying a time bomb, since it's only a matter of time until it becomes unusable, because of unavoidable ink clogs (I've had a 3000, a 4000 and now a 4900), a little voice in me tells me I should put the least amount of money on the machine since I'll end up losing it anyway, with time.
I thought about, perhaps, buying an A3 color laser printer? Same kind of money, horrendous cost of consumables but NO MORE INK CLOG -- ever. For that reason alone, I'd go for it. But the present quality of CMYK toners never approaches the gamut of inkjet printers which in my mind rules out this class of machines completely. I don't mind reprofiling every time I need to use the machine but I'd have to give up on saturation and image quality overall, although laser printing has considerably improved over the year.
I spent time yesterday reading about people's experience with the P800 and it is not clear cut that this machine is a huge improvement over previous generations of ink formulations. Some people claim "clog-free" operations, even over the course of weeks, months while others complain they routinely need to waste ink to unclog it. One way or another, owning an inkjet printer is a costly proposition, there is the initial expenditure of buying the printer but there is also the ongoing "hidden costs" of wasting ink and the purchase of maintenance tanks to keep the printer "operating normally" over and above the regular cost of consumables.
In the end, I agree with you that these machines are made to "print", daily, with medium to moderate to high volume. I've seen one 9900 unit where I used to work at Transcontinental run for months, outputting loads of proofs, seven days a week, sometimes changing rolls two to three times a day, only to have the head fail progressively, to the point that, after a year and a half, a new printer had to be put in, paying $2,000 for replacing the print head didn't make sense.
The only thing I'd consider is to buy my next Epson printer from Europe, to avoid all the stupid chip protection.
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Roger,
The cost of bringing in such a printer from Europe, if you will be allowed to and not to ignore the power transformation and cycles issues, would be a big overhead to swallow before you realize any so-called economies on third party inks, which I would not use for my own printer - but maybe that's just me.
Turning to more realistic matters, it's necessary to think in terms of priorities and relative values. The ink for a P5000 costs about half the ink for a P800 on a per ml basis, and with the P5000 as for the 4900, unlike for the P800, when it clogs you can clean one channel pair at a time. So you can get away with a lot more clogging on a P5000 relative to a P800 and still come out financially about even.
Now speaking about clogs - there are clogs and there are clogs. Not all clogs are born equal. My room is with Epson humidity specs but toward the low end - an important point. The kind of clogging I'm seeing on the P5000 is far easier to deal with than was the case on my previous 4900. The P5000 can go several days unused before showing any need for cleaning (printing a bit every day or every other day, and clogs are unusual). Beyond that, I'll see a channel or two that needs a touch-up. It's usually one normal cleaning cycle on a channel pair. It's fast and uses very little ink. So I don't mind those nearly as much as I minded the repeated episodes of lengthy cleaning sessions I endured toward the end of the 4900 ("the end" being when I got fed-up with it and donated it). It was still functional, just a huge nuisance. You know - like a used car after "X" years.
From the kind of things you want to do, a P5000 may be the correct choice; but as I said the other day, condition your choice on what you want the printer to be able to do and how you will use it. I settled on the P5000 because it's the only 17 inch machine with the combination of features I thought very useful to me: built-in auto-cut roll mechanism, flat feed for heavy or still media, good top feed for normal luster or matte papers, and a cassette feed for the thin stuff - very versatile. Also, the print head has 360 nozzles per inch whereas the P800 print head is 180. Maybe it makes some difference, I don't know, one would have a hard time seeing it, but the resolution is there. Also the widest gamut inkjet printer in that size range on the market. The extra gamut doesn't always make a difference, but sometimes it does. So those are the things that settled me on the P5000, knowing that maybe it needs more regular usage than a P800. There are trade-offs in this business like just about everything in life, so one needs to settle on something based on one's priorities, with some careful, orderly thinking about the relative merits and consequences of one factor versus another.
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Just to clarify the only reason I even brought up the P6000 is they finally cracked the ink chip without the circuit board that is required for the P800.
Gives all kinds of options. If you purchase the P6000 oem 700 ml carts to refill the Inkowl refillables it is less then half the price of the P800 ink.
Ink for P6000 is around .35 ml and for the P800 .75. That is huge!
The savings on 1 full set of 700 ml carts vs. paying P800 rate is $2500. Pays for the entire printer plus the ink owl refillables..
That $2195 price for a 24" printer is a steal. Want orange and green it is another $500.
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Dan,
You're an invaluable resource :-) Since they "finally cracked the P6000 ink chip without the circuit board that is required for the P800" that is something I'd take into consideration in my decision. My low printing volume would still not justify a P6000 over a P5000 but it's something to think about. The thing is I "hate" to be locked into Epson's own everything. It's so much for the savings in inks although that might become a consideration at some point but for the "freedom" of being able to operate the printer as I see fit. [Although, "operating the printer as I see fit" is maybe what has gotten me in trouble over the year with my 4900?]
This morning, I was toying with the idea of getting another 4900, possibly a brand new one, since I still have so much "investments" in the 4900 in terms of refillable cartridges, cleaning solution, Adjustment Utility, and the pack of brand new ink cartridges I recently purchased, encouraged my "progresses", getting another 4900 would allow to "retain" all that investment and possibly enjoy a few more years of relatively trouble-free operation, the print quality of the 4900 is nothing to complain about -- on thecontrary.
Call me crazy :-)
Mark,
Your points about the P800 cleaning cycles involving ALL channels is somewhat of a show-stopper? I hate wasting Epson inks.
Yes, I did consider all the costs of importing a printer from Europe -- that would be positively insane, I know...
You're making me think twice about getting a P800, especially for the kinds of things I do, prepress and all that...
It's not like I can't afford a P5000 over a P800, it's just the "risks" I hate to take one way or another.
I mean, if you ask me, blindfolded I much prefer the convenience of a P5000 than a P800 regardless of the forthcoming clogs I'll run into.
I keep reading that the inks into the P series may have had possible "improvements" in terms of formulation over the last generation? Which could make them less prone to dry and clog? But that's all speculation to me for there is no mention of it on Epson's site -- I don't suppose Epson would be crazy enough to make that kind of statement...?
The other thing, as Dan mentioned, if the Chinese managed to crack the ink chip in the P6000, it seems to me it's only a matter of time before they crack the P5000 chip? Logical?
Say Mark, how long have you had the P5000 for now?
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I've had the P5000 since April Fool's Day 2017 - so just over a year.
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Just to clarify the only reason I even brought up the P6000 is they finally cracked the ink chip without the circuit board that is required for the P800.
Gives all kinds of options. If you purchase the P6000 oem 700 ml carts to refill the Inkowl refillables it is less then half the price of the P800 ink.
Ink for P6000 is around .35 ml and for the P800 .75. That is huge!
The savings on 1 full set of 700 ml carts vs. paying P800 rate is $2500. Pays for the entire printer plus the ink owl refillables..
That $2195 price for a 24" printer is a steal. Want orange and green it is another $500.
If you are going to provide advise or make recommendations to an individual trying to make a rational purchase decision, maybe it's best to start with some facts and that person's needs and usage pattern, not your obsession with the cost of ink and basing a whole decision on the cost of ink to the exclusion of other things that probably could be a lot more determinative.
The over-riding issue for Roger is that he makes only intermittent use of the printer - i.o.w. a low volume irregular user. You wouldn't want to match such a usage pattern with a costly printer that needs very large amounts of ink which could run the risk of deteriorating in the cartridges once opened for lack of use. Unopened cartridges can be useful well beyond the stated expiry date, but once they are opened the ink should be consumed within six months. Next, are the implications of using non-oem ink in a new printer. Most importantly, you void any aspect of the warranty that could be associated (at Epson's discretion) with using non-Epson inks or interaction with non-Epson products. See pages 4 and 5 of the P5000 Warranty document. Then there is an issue of what these 3rd party inks are: can they deliver equivalent quality, DMax and gamut, and what impact does using them have on the longevity ratings of the prints (have any of coloured inks been tested for)? Then there is the whole question of the total and per unit cost of oem inks for printing. For a low volume user it's just not a major issue, just like the cost of gasoline for a car is less of an issue if you drive 5000 km per year than if you drive 25,000 km per year. But even on a cost per print basis, for lower volume users it's just not the big ticket item some make it out to be. For example, in the past year I've printed about 815 square feet. At that annual usage rate, for a 13*19 inch sheet, my amortization of the machine is CAD 1.22, paper is 2.83 and ink is 1.34 totaling CAD 5.39. Even if the ink cost were reduced by half, the overall printing cost would come down by 67 cents, for a saving of 12.5%. For that 12.5% I'm buying more printer than I need, taking warranty risk, ink quality risk, print longevity risk, and augmented wastage risk. Just not worth it, and not worth basing a printer decision on the model for which someone succeeded in cracking a chip code.
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Roger, both my previous and current Canon and HP printers state on the back "110 -240 V, 50/60 hertz" So you may be able to import from Europe. It would be best to check though.
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Roger, both my previous and current Canon and HP printers state on the back "110 -240 V, 50/60 hertz" So you may be able to import from Europe. It would be best to check though.
I just checked the back of the Epson SC-P5000 and it too is 110-240V, 50-50 hertz, so that's not an issue (in principle it was a possibility depending on the specs, but in this case it isn't). The more determinative issues *may be* (I don't know, all would need verification) whether dealers in Europe are allowed to ship them to Canada, warranty coverage on printers not bought within the service area of usage, and the shipping cost and shipping risk (insurance?). I suspect it's not a viable idea, but never having explored it I couldn't say for sure. Again, it raises the same question about how much trouble it's worth encountering to save a few - or even more than a few - bucks on ink.
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Mark is right, there must be a TON of protection things, blockages that await the buyer. I don't think I'm prepared to go through that hell after all.
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P5000 are hard to come by in Canada these days. No one seems to have them. I'm not even sure about the ink.
I tried calling Epson directly, to know more about the situation, but they won't say what they have in stock -- if any. They keep referring me to their "dealers". One local dealer tells me 4 to 6 weeks ordering time... And that's not a guarantee. Talk about an incentive to buy Epson again?
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Try CCBC-Club Labatt St. Toronto
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I've sent them an email -- thanks.