Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: LasseDPF on September 26, 2006, 12:38:22 pm
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Anyone at Photokina seen this ?
Or have any more info ?
"Leaf introduces at Photokina the Leaf AFi - a new medium-format digital camera for professional photographers "
"Based on a newly designed camera body, the Leaf AFi enjoys a wealth of unique features, including:
• Changeable viewfinder system (waist level or 90°/prism view)
• Specially designed Schneider-Kreuznach digital lenses for speed and sharp images
• Adjustable control grip provides ergonomically optimal angles for different shooting
positions
Page 2 of 2
• Switching between portrait and landscape by turning only the camera back; no need to turn
the camera"
http://www.leaf-photography.com/files/Pres...tiks_Camera.pdf (http://www.leaf-photography.com/files/Press%20Releases/Leaf_and_Janoptiks_Camera.pdf)
Lasse
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Now THAT'S what I'm talking 'bout! Got kinda excited about the new Sinar/Rollei, but blanched at the system (for now) only being able to accept Sinar backs). Thought about the H3d for a minute, but it doesn't seem much different from the H2d. But this is something to get excited about. (waist level or prism finders, Aptus back technology, S-K lenses, rotating back, 6x6 or 6x4.5!) More info, please!
Thinking about it, the camera (not the back technology or S-K lenses) sounds an awful lot like the new Sinar/Rollei....
Anyone at Photokina seen this ?
Or have any more info ?
"Leaf introduces at Photokina the Leaf AFi - a new medium-format digital camera for professional photographers "
"Based on a newly designed camera body, the Leaf AFi enjoys a wealth of unique features, including:
• Changeable viewfinder system (waist level or 90°/prism view)
• Specially designed Schneider-Kreuznach digital lenses for speed and sharp images
• Adjustable control grip provides ergonomically optimal angles for different shooting
positions
Page 2 of 2
• Switching between portrait and landscape by turning only the camera back; no need to turn
the camera"
http://www.leaf-photography.com/files/Pres...tiks_Camera.pdf (http://www.leaf-photography.com/files/Press%20Releases/Leaf_and_Janoptiks_Camera.pdf)
Lasse
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=77832\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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specs sound exactly like the new sinar / rollei camera hy6..another player in the camera market..I assume from the press release it will be taking leaf backs only..another player..good.
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I think that is the same camera, the spec sheet mentions Janopik camera.
I wonder how that relates to Leica.
Regards,
Bernard
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It is indeed interesting, the similarities of this camera to the new Rollei/Sinar, the partnership between Leaf and Jenoptik, Leica's role, etc.
Based on the specs in the press releases for the Sinar/Rollei and this new Leaf, I'd be inclined at the moment to go with the Leaf, for two reasons: (1) I like the Aptus backs marginally better than the eMotion and (2) the use of Schneider lenses for the new Leaf makes it very attractive (As a former owner of a Rollei 6008, I know what the Schneider lenses are capable of. But the Zeiss/Jena lenses for the new Rollei won't be any slouch either!)
I think that is the same camera, the spec sheet mentions Janopik camera.
I wonder how that relates to Leica.
Regards,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=77840\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Sounds awesome. Finally, something worth a damn.
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What mount will it work with?
My leaf H mount?
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Here is a picture of the new Leaf camera, and more
http://edsbloggertest.blogspot.com/2006/09...mera-is-in.html (http://edsbloggertest.blogspot.com/2006/09/from-photokina-leaf-afi-camera-is-in.html)
Edmund
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whew. Its getting exciting. And those Rollei Schneider lenses are as good as they come. They've been looking for a platform....
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Here is a picture of the new Leaf camera, and more
http://edsbloggertest.blogspot.com/2006/09...mera-is-in.html (http://edsbloggertest.blogspot.com/2006/09/from-photokina-leaf-afi-camera-is-in.html)
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=77892\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
thanks for that. have you got anymore shots of the camera you can post?
paul
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so i guess instead of trying to adapt the backs to the camera, the camera maker adapts the camera to the backs? fine with me as long as it is as brilliant as this rollei/sinar/leaf beauty!
thanks for posting the pic! will check in with your blog for more...
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thanks for that. have you got anymore shots of the camera you can post?
paul
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=77894\")
Sure, Paul, I put up a picture on my color management blog:
[a href=\"http://monitor-calibration.net]http://monitor-calibration.net[/url]
Edmund
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Interesting, any word on pricing?
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I think all this is very clever!
3 companies that are putting all their eggs in one basket!
Leaf,Rollei and Sinar!
I think I'll go for the Rolleiflex badge!
A Leaf camera doesn't do it for me!
Certainly interesting times are ahead.
Regards,
Willem.
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Um, I kinda need this camera right now. Seriously. I think I'm more excited about this than the M8 I have on pre-order...
I think all this is very clever!
3 companies that are putting all their eggs in one basket!
Leaf,Rollei and Sinar!
I think I'll go for the Rolleiflex badge!
A Leaf camera doesn't do it for me!
Certainly interesting times are ahead.
Regards,
Willem.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=77900\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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So, the Sinar version takes Sinar backs, the Leaf version takes Leaf backs, and if you buy the Rollei version, you just hope that the back you want is compatible, right? Or will they be sold as digital packages, like Hasselblad's H2D/H3D, etc?
Any more info?
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Wait a minute -- I think I have part of the picture here: I can get a Rollei/Sinar version with a Sinar eMotion back, or a Leaf version with one of the Aptus backs. But here's what's blowing my mind: with any version of this camera, can I use both the new Schneider lenses AND the new Zeiss/Jena lenses annouced a few days ago? (discussed here: http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....howtopic=12208) (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=12208))
That would be unspeakably awesome.
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This easily wins the prize for most exciting news from Photokina (assuming there is no let down in the fine print).
I was 90% decided on the Rollei system before Photokina. This just nails it
And it has a 6x6 image circle with a rotating back. Woohoo! Sorry, just had to get it out of my system
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And at the end of the PDF news release, it says "Copyright Kodak". Sort of sad really.
More competition in MF has to be good
Quentin
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Edmund, thanks for posting the pic. Anything else you have would be appreciated.
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I'm trying to wrap my brain around this: the press release describes the camera as a "6 x 6 medium-format digital camera solution" but it mates to a Leaf back that is roughly 645. What am I missing?
Either way it looks interesting but I'm afraid to even ponder what it costs.
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Bob,
the digital rotates like the RZ and the Fuji GX 680!
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I'm trying to wrap my brain around this: the press release describes the camera as a "6 x 6 medium-format digital camera solution" but it mates to a Leaf back that is roughly 645. What am I missing?
Either way it looks interesting but I'm afraid to even ponder what it costs.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=77915\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
This seems to be a design using 6x6 lenses and viewfinder, with a rotating 645 back, to avoid turning the camera on its side. Great!
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The cost would be similar to the Hasselblad H3 and the new range of Schneider lenses,should also be comparable with the Hasselblad HC lenses.
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Yup, this is the best news, and the best looking MF camera system so far. I'm glad I held off on putting together a MF system...not that I could make up my mind on which system to go with in the first place.
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I second that!
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Hmm, so this camera will take 3 type of lenses then
Sinar AF
new! Schneider (AF probably)
Zeiss (Rollei)
if it is a hit, there will be compatible backs from all the manufacturers? (ihope)
tom-
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It will take the Rollei mount series lenses only!
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Hmm, so this camera will take 3 type of lenses then
Sinar AF
new! Schneider (AF probably)
Zeiss (Rollei)
if it is a hit, there will be compatible backs from all the manufacturers? (ihope)
tom-
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=77943\")
Leaf have told me that there will be no Phase backs for this camera - I will confirm this with Rollei. The shifting of alliances in MF is strange.
I've posted yet another view of this camera on my blog
[a href=\"http://monitor-calibration.net]http://monitor-calibration.net[/url]
The original photo clearly showed the AE control at the top, AF at the bottom, and metering in the middle.
Unfortunately, blogger seems to be compressing teh pictures very strongly.
Please tell me *in comments on the color blog* whether you prefer that layout, or the layout here http://edsbloggertest.blogspot.com/ (http://edsbloggertest.blogspot.com/)
I hate both of these templates , but have to stay on Blogger because of the free bandwidth.
Edmund
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As quoted by Geoff Goldberg at the FM forum!
"Not really. They've been making AF medium format lenses for Rollei for a couple of years now. Started with the 80 mm, and then 50 and 150,and a 180 2.8, and even a 60-140 zoom, all autofocus.
Originally, the Rollei 6003/8 system had a wide range of Zeiss and Schneider lenses. Some of these directly were in competition with each other (both had 40mm lenses, 60 mm, etc.) Some of the Schneiders were 1/500 sec lenses, some 1/1000. Over time this simplfied, and finally a few years ago, the Zeiss lenses kind of went away, and it was all Schneider, who made really great lenses.
Then, with the advent of digital backs on the 6008 (not too common in the US), first with the Ixpress, then the Phase One bundle (DP20), and then the EMotion 22, Rollei introduced an autofocus version of the 6008. Then Schneider started making AF lenses for them.
That's what's being used in the new camera, it seems, along with some new (6) lenses from Zeiss/Jenoptik. "
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This all sounds great. but can I use my Aptus 75 h mount back on it?
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This all sounds great. but can I use my Aptus 75 h mount back on it?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=77955\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Probably not.
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Compared to the Rollei 6008 it's tiny!
It just shows how much space was taken up by the motor drive...
To say I'm very interested in this camera is an understatement.
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Compared to the Rollei 6008 it's tiny!
It just shows how much space was taken up by the motor drive...
To say I'm very interested in this camera is an understatement.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78015\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I agree, and am interested too!
If you don't need the motor drive for the digital back, how is Rollei selling this with film back as well? Either no motors (not likely), the motors will be in the backs, or maybe they have found new small motors?
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It's very obvious that that winder mechanism is in the handle/grip that also houses the battery!
On the 6000 series the battery took up a lot of space as well!
Cheers,
Willem.
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OK, so here's what we think we know:
(1) This camera will be a lot like the excellent Rollei 6008 in terms of functionality and ergonomics, but smaller, lighter, and more modern (although the 6008AF is pretty darn advanced itself!)
(2) Waist-level finder and (eventual?) prism finder (I can't imagine them not offering one)
(2) Any version of this camera (??? True?) will accept the new AF Zeiss Jena lenses for the 6000 series Rolleis, AND Schneider AF lenses, which have some wicked fast maximum apertures.
(3) 6x6 image circle (meaning I can shoot square on film when I want to!), rotating 6x4.5 backs so that you don't have to turn the camera (althought urning the camera will be a lot more practical than w. the 6008, simply b/c of the body size). It seems to be unclear whether there will be a truly rotating back (push a button and turn it), or whether it's a "remove, rotate, re-attach," which would be less attractive. But if I'm reading the ergnomics of the camera correctly from the pics, one should be able to turn the camera vertically and handhold it without too much trouble (Edmund, your thoughts since you've actually handled it? Also, PLEASE push them to make the back truly rotating if it isn't already)
(4) If you buy the Leaf version, it'll take the highly regarded Aptus line (this is the route I'll likely go), offering up to 39 megapixels and ISO 800. If you want the Rollei Sinar version, it'll take the highly regarded eMotion line.
I really can't think of anything else I could ask for in a MF camera system (well, a clean ISO 3200 would be cool, but doesn't seem to be feasible with the current technology). If this is correct (in fact, even if only MOST of it is correct), then, unless there's some bad surprise int he wings, all I need to know is (a) when can I have one and ( how much is it gonna cost me?
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i think they should make the camera black! it looks too "toy" in the broncolor type colours. heres a preview of the black coloured version (thanks to photoshop)-
(http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/2186/sinarhy6sidejuliusys5.jpg)
does that look better to you guys?
paul
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I agree, but the Leaf version already looks black:
http://edsbloggertest.blogspot.com/2006/09...mera-is-in.html (http://edsbloggertest.blogspot.com/2006/09/from-photokina-leaf-afi-camera-is-in.html)
i think they should make the camera black! it looks too "toy" in the broncolor type colours. heres a preview of the black coloured version (thanks to photoshop)-
(http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/2186/sinarhy6sidejuliusys5.jpg)
does that look better to you guys?
paul
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78052\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I agree, but the Leaf version already looks black:
http://edsbloggertest.blogspot.com/2006/09...mera-is-in.html (http://edsbloggertest.blogspot.com/2006/09/from-photokina-leaf-afi-camera-is-in.html)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78053\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
i noticed that after i posted this
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Some more good news from this site: http://www.photoscala.de/node/2230 (http://www.photoscala.de/node/2230)
It says that the camera will take conventional film backs, Sinar digital backs and products of other companies (digital backs).
Other technical highlights: a flash sync of 1/1000th! And a mirror with reduced vibration, for use at slower shutter speeds.
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William, that is about the best thing ever written on this site!
(me standing at my mac clapping)
is there any way to tell sinar to go black?
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It's dark grey and black!
The color of the buttons I would say depends on wether it's a Rollei or Leaf or Sinar body!
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There is a new video showing the Hy6. Seems that it will be released in a Phase One version as well.
It is an open-platform! (standing applause!) No longer will we hesitate to invest in a system by wondering how long that one manufacturer will last. If they did it right, then the system will be 100% modular, and a Leaf back with the Hy6 mount will fit on a ROllei Hy6. I really hope this is the case.
http://luminous-landscape.com/photokina/me...at-report.shtml (http://luminous-landscape.com/photokina/medium-format-report.shtml)
It is shaping up to be a battle between the Hy6, which is an open platform (woohoo!) and the Hasselblad H3D.
Hasselblad H3D will no longer work with backs other than Hass backs!
Hy6 will apparently appear not only in Leaf and Sinar versions but Phase One as well.
Rollei 6000 series has been discontinued.
Leica obviously knew about this and effectively invested in medium format digital by buying Sinar. Interesting.
I don't know where this leaves Mamiya.
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has anyone found out about the time scale for these cameras..i.e. when they will be available?
Thanks.
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It's ticked all of my boxes except two,
-can anyone say what's the tilt/shift lens options with this camera?
-I guess there's no equivalent of the Biogon 38mm in this range?
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I do not think there are any tilt shift options announced for this camera..perhaps hartblei will make their shift and rotator lenses in the new mount..currently in mamiya and contax 645 mounts for these new mounts..but there is no guarentee of that.
I think perhaps it is best to not try to think of getting a shift or tilt shift lens directly for mf cameras and instead using one of the horseman / cambo etc options which gives both very wide lens and shift options..but of course no tilt..and at some expense.
For the full movements we still have view cameras.
As for the biogen 38mm...there is no other equivalent and as it is of course a v mount there is still much to say for going with the v system as a whole for your work if you do interiors / exteriors etc...unless of course the backs you can get for the new leaf / sinar / rollei etc can be fitted with an adapter for another system..i.e. v mount for use with the 38mm biogen lens..camera.
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does anyone knows
- when will the camera be available
- pricing
- bundle options
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I do not think there are any tilt shift options announced for this camera
Didn't Rollei have some lens shutter tilt and shift options?
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sorry, yes.
the only one I know about is:
they have a beast of a shift lens..a 55mm F4.5 PCS S/Angulon..very expensive (currently one used for £3k!)
not sure if other tilt shift options are avaialble but hoipefully we will know more over the next few days or so.
I am surprised no one at photkina has beena ble to find out about when these cameras are hoped to be released..I think we need to know if it is a matter of weeks, months or a year away!
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sorry, yes.
the only one I know about is:
they have a beast of a shift lens..a 55mm F4.5 PCS S/Angulon..very expensive (currently one used for £3k!)
not sure if other tilt shift options are avaialble but hoipefully we will know more over the next few days or so.
I am surprised no one at photkina has beena ble to find out about when these cameras are hoped to be released..I think we need to know if it is a matter of weeks, months or a year away!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78101\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well a working prototype was being freely distributed for hands-on at "Kina", so you wouldn't think it would be that long before "its on shelves". Rollei lenses are faster than HC lenses generally and quite often represent a better value for money... and I'm saying this as a H1 user for over 2 years. I like the new 28mm lens, but as a H1 user am arbitrarilly I locked out of using it?! I'm certainly not going to "buy a rebadged H1 body -i.e. the H3D" just to use this lens and so will nobody else. I am left with the impression that Hassie have shot themselves in the foot with this one - especially as their backs seem to be developing much more slowly than thoose from Phase and Leaf - even mamiya has lead on them withe ZD and future ZDII.
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... I like the new 28mm lens, but as a H1 user am arbitrarilly I locked out of using it?! I'm certainly not going to "buy a rebadged H1 body -i.e. the H3D" just to use this lens and so will nobody else. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78102\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
from this weeks bjp
"The H3D is available now although prices had not been announced as BJP went to press. Hasselblad adds that there is an H3D upgrade program available for H1D and H2D users."
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I like the new 28mm lens, but as a H1 user am arbitrarilly I locked out of using it?!
If you've got a digital back on your H1/2 I thought you could use the new 28mm, it's just that the image circle is too small for 645 film. Or have I got this wrong?
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I can not see why you could not use the 28mm lens on the older bodies with digital back..the lens mount is the same.
However I am pretty sure that one of the features of the new 28mm lens is the software / digital engine in the new H3D camera.
So that may mean that it can be used on the H1/2 with digital backs but without the lens correction stuff etc....or there is the upgrade to the 3 that will give you the full features of the 28mm lens.
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However I am pretty sure that one of the features of the new 28mm lens is the software / digital engine in the new H3D camera
Good point. Has there been any commentary at Photokina as to how significant this software enhancement is?
It could be simple vignette correction as per the new Leica M8, in which case I'd rather make the adjustments myself and retain control. It could be interim level enhancements, ie distortion correction, possible to DIY but sometimes fiddly (I'd value a distortion correction module for my Hasselblad 40mm IF, especially if I've applied some lens movements with a Flexbody). Or it could be more serious corrections similar to DxO where there really aren't any DIY Photoshop options.
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The H3D will ONLY work with Hasselblad backs. You will be totally locked into Hasselblad.
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"The innovative communications between lens and capture unit in the Hasselblad H3D results in a new level of image quality with a higher level of detail and true sharpness. This inter-communication lays the ground for Hasselblad's Digital APO Correction (DAC) and the new Ultras-Focus functionality."
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Sorry I got the impression that the 28MM would be "soft/firmware locked" to the H3D! Do we know wether this is the case yet or not ?1 Someone must know.
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Sorry I got the impression that the 28MM would be "soft/firmware locked" to the H3D! Do we know wether this is the case yet or not ?1 Someone must know.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78121\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
from the hasselblad website:
"Please note, however, that this special lens is designed specifically for the H3D camera model and is for digital use only. Consequently it is not compatible with the film magazine HM 16-32, the film magazine HMi 100 or the Converter H1.7x."
Still not clear though is it...as you say..someone must know!
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The new Leaf AFi/Sinar/Rollei = best...camera...ever.
Is it me, or is Hasselblad trying to create a standard medium format size, called "48mm," or whatever they called it, referring to the size of most "645" chips right now? That new lens is similar to what Canon did with their EF-S line, and what Nikon has with their DX line of lenses, am I right?
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Is it me, or is Hasselblad trying to create a standard medium format size, called "48mm," or whatever they called it, referring to the size of most "645" chips right now? That new lens is similar to what Canon did with their EF-S line, and what Nikon has with their DX line of lenses, am I right?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78127\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Actually it seems Hasselblad are creating a new standard of monopolising their own technology to the extent that even their curennt customers are forced to buy things they dont want like the H3D just to acess their latest technology/lenses.
I cannot say how long it is till we get sesors bigger than the 48mmX, but it is probably 2 generations away, i.e. 3 years atleast.
Ed
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Someoen asked about the AF on the Rollei 6008AF. I had one, and the autofocusing was OK, but only OK. It was faster than the Contax 645 (I had one of those too), but not as accurate (it would hunt more). I remember reading, however, that the later versions of the 6008AF (I had one of the very early ones) were significantly better in terms of accuracy. In short, the 6008AF's autofocus was OK. Given that I don't shoot sports or wildlife, it was fine for me.
But, even assuming you're using the existign Schneider AF lenses on this new camera, there's no reason to assume that AF will be the same; presumably, a better AF drive and focusing algorithims in the camera itself would help.
For those of you who've seen the new camera: what's the deal with what you see in the finder in relation to the back's position? I.e., is it a square viewing area with horizontal and vertical 6x4.5 etchings on the screen? It would be really nice if the appropriate vertical or horizontal markings or "blades" popped up in the viewfinder when the orientation was changed -- wasn't there a Fuji camera that did this? You;d think it'd be even easier to do that these days, given that you could just do it electronically in the viewfinder.
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Sorry I got the impression that the 28MM would be "soft/firmware locked" to the H3D! Do we know wether this is the case yet or not ?1 Someone must know.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78121\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Here is my theory of why the 28mm is probably dedicated to the H3D.
I don't know a lot about the technicalities of lens design, but it seems that it is full of compromises. If you throw in some in-camera software removal of some of the distortions that are more easily corrected via software then the balance of the decisions for the design of the lens might be developed enough to enable acceptable results from such a wide lens (for this SLR format). So it just wouldn't perform well enough without the software corrections that have been allowed for in the lens design, which are probably only available with the H3. ..and I suppose it follows that if Hasselblad are going this route with their products then there wouldn't be much possibility of cross over with other brands.
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It's ticked all of my boxes except two,
-can anyone say what's the tilt/shift lens options with this camera?
-I guess there's no equivalent of the Biogon 38mm in this range?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78091\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
there is a superb 55mm T/S
there is a 40mm4.0 FLE Zeiss, a 40mm 3.5 schneider and the new announced 35mm AF
all with in lens shutters with synch up to 1/500....
there are also some older 40mm zeiss lenses for the same mount, which work on the 6000 series, we will have to see how they will work on this camera...they have limited automatic functions on the latest 6008af bodies...
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Here is my theory of why the 28mm is probably dedicated to the H3D.
David, even though Hasselblad recommend the H3D for the 28mm I haven't seen anywhere a statement that it won't work with the H1/2. I guess you're on the right lines though with your point about digitally correcting optical abberations.
For extreme retrofocus wide angles in particular there seems to be a trade-off between resolution and distortion. I use the new Hasselblad 40mm IF, and even though it's the sharpest medium format ultra wide I've ever used (which includes the 38mm Biogon and the Contax and H series 35mm lenses) the level of distortion is just horrible, leaving aside the 30mm fisheye I think it measures roughly twice the level of distortion as the next worse lens in the V system line-up.
I too am no optical engineer, but it would be reasonable to asume that if automatic digital correction freed a lens designer from having to consider distortion (and to an extent vignetting) within their calculations, then they would be free to produce some stunning new optics.
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sorry, yes.
the only one I know about is:
they have a beast of a shift lens..a 55mm F4.5 PCS S/Angulon..very expensive (currently one used for £3k!)
not sure if other tilt shift options are avaialble but hoipefully we will know more over the next few days or so.
I am surprised no one at photkina has beena ble to find out about when these cameras are hoped to be released..I think we need to know if it is a matter of weeks, months or a year away!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78101\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Theoretical date is April 07 - your date when it will really happen is as good as mine !
Edmund
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Wow! That's a LONG time from annoucement to initial availability....
Theoretical date is April 07 - your date when it will really happen is as good as mine !
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78202\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Wow! That's a LONG time from annoucement to initial availability....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78206\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
is there anything shown at kina that will come out this year? this is a show of announcements, no more...a 6 months timeframe is actually pretty normal, especially for a nich product like this...it even takes canon 3-4 months between announcement and actual shipping of their new flagships...
the fact that this camera is shown and handled in different versions already makes the april timeframe very realistic...
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new camera: what's the deal with what you see in the finder in relation to the back's position? [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78137\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Again, for those who have seen the camera, does the handle rotate at all, or come off, like the 6008, or is it fixed? Given all the elctronics in it, it may have to be fixed, but it is nice in the 6008 that it can be positioned where you want it.
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It rotates. I don't remember where I read that, but I'm 99% certain that someone who's handled it reported that it does rotate.
My question was about rotation of the back and what you see in the viewfinder in relation to the back's orientation.
Again, for those who have seen the camera, does the handle rotate at all, or come off, like the 6008, or is it fixed? Given all the elctronics in it, it may have to be fixed, but it is nice in the 6008 that it can be positioned where you want it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78262\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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It rotates. I don't remember where I read that, but I'm 99% certain that someone who's handled it reported that it does rotate.
My question was about rotation of the back and what you see in the viewfinder in relation to the back's orientation.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78281\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
judging from the pics, it should rotate (it seems to be in different positions in different shots) plus there was a note somwhere about he LCD screen on the handle and that it is easily readable from all positions of the handle...
i used to have a valeo on a 555eld and i made a cross shaped overlay in the finder for the rotating back...simple and cleaner then you would think...
the fuji gx680 had simple blades that popped out and masked the finder for vertical/horizontal shooting...very simple solution....not very accurate (i find myself using every mm in the finder with digital)...it could not be that hard to come up with something..but then every 200$ point&shoot has a better screen then my phase back....
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judging from the pics, it should rotate (it seems to be in different positions in different shots) plus there was a note somwhere about he LCD screen on the handle and that it is easily readable from all positions of the handle...
i used to have a valeo on a 555eld and i made a cross shaped overlay in the finder for the rotating back...simple and cleaner then you would think...
the fuji gx680 had simple blades that popped out and masked the finder for vertical/horizontal shooting...very simple solution....not very accurate (i find myself using every mm in the finder with digital)...it could not be that hard to come up with something..but then every 200$ point&shoot has a better screen then my phase back....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78286\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The back can be ucnlipped rotated and reclipped. The handle rotates.
Edmund
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One thing about the Hy6 is rather unclear to me. What DB mount will it use? I assumed there would be a new Hy6 mount with full digital integration. If not, which existing mount is being used? Or is it modular, i.e. can it be modified to take different DBs?
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One thing about the Hy6 is rather unclear to me. What DB mount will it use? I assumed there would be a new Hy6 mount with full digital integration. If not, which existing mount is being used? Or is it modular, i.e. can it be modified to take different DBs?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78387\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
There's an innovative solution: A fairly thick adapter clips to the camera body, and the film pack clips to the adapter. I assume that various adapters for various thrid-part backs could also be emplaced, allowing it to work with backs for other camera mounts.
Edmund
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Do you think Leica will make lenses for the Hy6?
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If Leica did make lenses for the Hy6 system it would certainly give the product a boost, and maybe now that they own Sinar this could be something we'll see down the road.
Interesting to speculate about. Scheider, Zeiss and Leica lenses all for the same platform and choice of backs as well!
Michael
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What leica could bring to the party is a rangefinder with a bit of rise and fall
Like an alpa that you can focus with and even maybe afford
(same lense mount same back mount - if the lenses are designed to cover 66 the is a bit of rise/fall there)
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If Leica did make lenses for the Hy6 system it would certainly give the product a boost, and maybe now that they own Sinar this could be something we'll see down the road.
Interesting to speculate about. Scheider, Zeiss and Leica lenses all for the same platform and choice of backs as well!
Michael
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=78401\")
We're all rather excited right now, me especially since someone posted availability of the Hy6 in April 07, not that too long of a wait. My concern is that they don't pull a 'Mamiya' and release it 18 months from now. Also, on the topic of Mamiya, where does this leave them? Even furher alienated in my view. It'll be interesting so see if PhaseOne provide solutions for Mamiya AND the Hy6 in addition to producing products for the legacy Hasselblad H&V kit out there. Looks like they may HAVE to!
I remember reading one of Michael's posts where he mentioned Hasselblad 'could' close it's system, alienating other back makers, looks like the H1 & H2's will indeed become dinosaurs. Let's face it, Hasselblad are no longer 'Hasselblad', they've just got the good name. Victor would be pissed.
My money will be spent elsewhere, most likely the Hy6.
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Nick Vasilopoulos
[a href=\"http://www.stoqq.com]http://www.stoqq.com[/url]
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i handled the camera at the sinar booth, release date is first half of 2007, price is 3800€ body only. the rotating grip is way cool, it has three click stops for rotation. they only had the waist level finder, but it seemed that it feels ergonomically right in every position. i agree that the color schemme of the sinar model is awfull, but really different. unfortunately i am not sure about rotation of the back, but i remember that the rep told me it would be like the 645 film backs of the 6000 serie, that would means take-off-rotate-put-on. AF was slow, but it is way to early to judge...
definitely a camera whichs feels much more comfortable to my hands than the hasselblad H.
i hope the future will bring us a real-full-frame back for this format, i.e. 6x6 or rather 56mmx56mm with enough resolution that cropping doesn't hurt
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hands on report with the Hy6:
here (http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00IErf&tag=)
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i handled the camera at the sinar booth, release date is first half of 2007, price is 3800€ body only. the rotating grip is way cool, it has three click stops for rotation. they only had the waist level finder, but it seemed that it feels ergonomically right in every position.
Hi
With the AF is it seperate from the shutter release like 645 AFDII, H1/2 & Contax?
Thanks Denis
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There's an innovative solution: A fairly thick adapter clips to the camera body, and the film pack clips to the adapter. I assume that various adapters for various thrid-part backs could also be emplaced, allowing it to work with backs for other camera mounts.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78389\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
These are the most exciting words I've read about this camera since I learned that the Sinar version would
only work with the (new) Sinar backs and the Leaf version would only work with the (new) Leaf backs.
They inspired the following speculation.
Since the thickness of the adapter may well (& possibly by design) be able to compensate for the different mount to
sensor plane distances of already existing backs made for different camera systems, the possibility for attaching
backs made last year and before seems very much brighter. When I think about the use of film backs, especially a
6x6 film back, that tells me that the adapter has to be user removable from the camera side, if it isn't permanently affixed
to the newer backs. It follows the ability to clip in at either orientation is on the camera side. So, it shouldn't be too
technically challenging for even a third party to manufacture adapter plates that are user attachable on both sides that
would allow existing and second hand backs for many camera systems to physically mount onto the camera in either
orientation. Data communication is a different matter. Even if the systems of data communication are electrically
compatible and have the software to be able to talk to each other, features that allow the camera to automatically set
the shutter speed or white balance in an unauthorized back could be locked out just like some resellers lock out feature
of some cell phones. One might have to rely on the flash terminal to tell the back when the camera fires or on an electric
remote release (I can't imagine it being made by F&H and not having at least the potential for one) to simultaneously tell
the camera and back to make an exposure. Hopefully a camera sold directly by F&H like an "unlocked" PDA-phone sold
directly by Palm would be able to attempt to cooperate as much as it could with anything one attached to it. If I was Phase
One, one thing I would seriously consider is a version of this camera that would work from the very first with previous
models of Phase One backs. Since the lack of interoperability strategy has already been employed by the other back
makers, the new camera purchase disincentive for changing brands is already in place, and I imagine their customers
would appreciate having the option to upgrade to the new camera system without the financial strain of having to upgrade
to the latest back at the same time. Being the one digital back manufacturer that has that attitude could make for
great customer relations.
It's really too bad that the digital backs and newer medium format cameras never took to some wireless form of
control communications (like, say, bluetooth for more recently manufactured stuff). The manufacture and distribution
of software based control data interfaces between older and newer equipment would be a lot less expensive than
routing wires through adapter plates that might have to stop half-way at interface electronics for which there's almost
no room. A wireless control data adapter (eg PDA) wouldn't even have to be part of the camera, just near it.
John
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The Hy6 platform is not an open platform meaning that a camera has an "open" mount (to every lens manufacturer) and "open" back connections (to any digital back manufacturer).
I think Rollei sells the camera to digital backs manufacturers, and they adapt the body to their backs. The Leaf cameras only work with Leaf backs... This implies that we will have many "mini-Hasselblads": Leaf camera and Leaf back; Sinar camera and Sinar back; Rollei camera and Rollei back... This would be nonsense! Perhaps Hasselblad can do it, but Rollei/Sinar/Leaf don't.
The Hy6 platform must be based on a set of public specifications open to everyone, lens manufacturers and back manufacturers. I should be possible to use a Phase One back on a Leaf-branded camera, or a Leaf back on a Sinar camera, and any lens on any camera.
I hope to see this platform well-defined and really open. Potential buyers will not accept tricks. People looking for a closed platform will have Hasselblads, Mamiyas, Pentaxes... and Canons... Rollei, Sinar and Leaf cannot win in that game. They have the opportunity to offer something different.
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The Hy6 platform must be based on a set of public specifications open to everyone, lens manufacturers and back manufacturers. I should be possible to use a Phase One back on a Leaf-branded camera, or a Leaf back on a Sinar camera, and any lens on any camera.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78727\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
why? why would leaf or phase or sinar be interested in making their systems interchangeable? they have nothing to gain with interchangeability. they can only survive if they get people locked into their system and that's why they all desperately need a working camera and lens(es) to put in front of their backs and now they have it AND can even brand it. if you want the "open" thing you buy a rollei and an adapter for your back(s).
it's really, really crazy...completely, totally strange that franke & heidecke (a little german company) are obviously the ONLY camera makers in the world who are able or willing to make a standard MF camera for all digital back makers.
just think about it. all these digital back companies are jumping on the HY6 camera.
why was no one interested up until now in making a platform that will work with all backs?
franke & heidecke are freaking me out - the only weakness they have is their marketing system and so what do they do? they let leaf, sinar and phase do the marketing for them by selling this thing directly to them. that's brilliant.
even if they don't sell a single rollei branded cam they're in like flint.
sinar and leaf have already committed to the system, phase will probably follow. it'll be like selling insulin to diabetics (no offense intended), what else are they gonna do? they all just need a workable (that means as good as hassy) solution and f&h are the only ones smart enough to say "here you go.".
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i think in the long run camera and backs will become one again, 15 years ago noone thought of using mamiya backs with hasselblad cameras. the situation we are now in with small back manufacturers and large camera-makers is already changing...
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i think in the long run camera and backs will become one again, 15 years ago noone thought of using mamiya backs with hasselblad cameras. the situation we are now in with small back manufacturers and large camera-makers is already changing...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78748\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Err... Camera backs nowdays are rather different to 15 years ago, in cost and complexity. No-one thought of using different backs on different cameras because you didn't need to, every camera maker had a back for their cameras which took whatever film you wished, also, it was a lot easier and cheaper to make.
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The Hy6 platform is not an open platform meaning that a camera has an "open" mount (to every lens manufacturer) and "open" back connections (to any digital back manufacturer).
I think Rollei sells the camera to digital backs manufacturers, and they adapt the body to their backs. The Leaf cameras only work with Leaf backs... This implies that we will have many "mini-Hasselblads": Leaf camera and Leaf back; Sinar camera and Sinar back; Rollei camera and Rollei back... This would be nonsense! Perhaps Hasselblad can do it, but Rollei/Sinar/Leaf don't.
The Hy6 platform must be based on a set of public specifications open to everyone, lens manufacturers and back manufacturers. I should be possible to use a Phase One back on a Leaf-branded camera, or a Leaf back on a Sinar camera, and any lens on any camera.
I hope to see this platform well-defined and really open. Potential buyers will not accept tricks. People looking for a closed platform will have Hasselblads, Mamiyas, Pentaxes... and Canons... Rollei, Sinar and Leaf cannot win in that game. They have the opportunity to offer something different.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78727\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
how do you expect a single camera to accept ALL lenses and ALL backs? this is just crazy! you would have to get all lens manufacturers together and get them to agree on ONE mount! this will of course never happen.....same goes for the backs!
a camera can only accept adapters to accept different lenses or backs....the Hy6 accepts the more lenses then any other system natively...maybe canon accepts that many lenses...the rollei Hy6 accepts all backs via adapters....why would the Leaf Hy6 (which is probably free with your Aptus) accept a phase back?
until we have a magically morphing intelligent camera, you will have to live with adapters to put your P45, Aptus75 and emotion75 on your ONE body?
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how do you expect a single camera to accept ALL lenses and ALL backs? this is just crazy!
Perhaps I have not explained my arguments clearly.
An open standard offered to all the companies of a consortium provides a particular set of specifications for the mount (the Rollei 6000 series mount is OK) and for the backs. The 4/3 standard is a good example. It is not an universal mount, but any lens manufacturer could make lenses for the 4/3 mount, because the 4/3 standard is open to any manufacturer (actually, Olympus, Panasonic/Leica and Sigma).
In the same way, a set of specifications can be established for the backs in order to allow the electronic communication with the body. This does not means all actual backs can be used with the Hy6, but any manufacturer could make a back for any of the Hy6 branded cameras.
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Perhaps I have not explained my arguments clearly.
An open standard offered to all the companies of a consortium provides a particular set of specifications for the mount (the Rollei 6000 series mount is OK) and for the backs. The 4/3 standard is a good example. It is not an universal mount, but any lens manufacturer could make lenses for the 4/3 mount, because the 4/3 standard is open to any manufacturer (actually, Olympus, Panasonic/Leica and Sigma).
In the same way, a set of specifications can be established for the backs in order to allow the electronic communication with the body. This does not means all actual backs can be used with the Hy6, but any manufacturer could make a back for any of the Hy6 branded cameras.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78786\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
so you are asking all back manufacturers to provide ONE mount for all their backs...yes i would sign that petition too...that will never happen....they can't even agree on one raw file standard...they would never let that happen, because they would never want to give you the option to switch from one to the other...they want you to upgrade from a P20 to a P30 to a P45.....if there was an open standard, you might jump ship!
but this has nothing to do with the Hy6...
about the 4/3 system: all 4/3 lenses from allmakers can be put on all cameras? i did not know that...i thought 4/3 was just a formula, like 35mm or APS...
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so you are asking all back manufacturers to provide ONE mount for all their backs...yes i would sign that petition too...that will never happen....they can't even agree on one raw file standard...they would never let that happen, because they would never want to give you the option to switch from one to the other...they want you to upgrade from a P20 to a P30 to a P45.....if there was an open standard, you might jump ship!
but this has nothing to do with the Hy6...
about the 4/3 system: all 4/3 lenses from allmakers can be put on all cameras? i did not know that...i thought 4/3 was just a formula, like 35mm or APS...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78790\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think I would definitely stay with one back manufacturer when I am pleased with the back. I want 1 back that I can use with a multitude of camera systems. I don't particularly care whether it needs adapters or that it is one mount standard as long as I can use my 1 back on the different camera systems I own.
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they would never let that happen, because they would never want to give you the option to switch from one to the other...
I don't agree. A universal back would remove a lot of doubt which is holding back medium format. So the answer is that they would do it for the success of the whole MF market. I think this is a very important point which I hope they are not too stubborn to see.
Secondly, although a customer could update a back with another brand, the reverse can happen with existing customers of other brands.
Look at PC parts. Fully interchangeable, and many companies are thriving in that environment.
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about the 4/3 system: all 4/3 lenses from allmakers can be put on all cameras? i did not know that...i thought 4/3 was just a formula, like 35mm or APS...
All lenses for the 4/3 standard can be used on any 4/3 camera. For instance, a Sigma lens can be used on a Panasonic camera, and a Panasonic/Leica lens can be used on a Olympus camera. The mount and its electronic connections are under public specifications. The standard is controlled by a consortium of companies.
Look at PC parts. Fully interchangeable, and many companies are thriving in that environment.
That is the point.
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I don't agree. A universal back would remove a lot of doubt which is holding back medium format. So the answer is that they would do it for the success of the whole MF market. I think this is a very important point which I hope they are not too stubborn to see.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78795\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
like i said..i am hoping as well...but we see how hasselblad approaches this...there is way too much propriatory technology involved...there are only 2 different chip makers, and 4 back manfacturers...4 different file formats...every back is triggered in a different way, at a different time...which would be the one standard everybody would agree on?
of course it would be better for us, the consumers, but neither phase nor leaf have any interest in that...their whole business model is based on return customers, people who keep upgrading within thier product line...and don't forget that sinar and imacon backs are both made by companies who also sell other products...sinar takes a more open approach with this...hasselblad..well we know about that...
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about the 4/3 system: all 4/3 lenses from allmakers can be put on all cameras? i did not know that...i thought 4/3 was just a formula, like 35mm or APS...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78790\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes, it's like the old 42 mm screw mount ...
Edmund
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the 4/3 system is a great one..you can now for instance use the two leica/panasonic lenses on your choice of panasonic, leica and olympus cameras without the need for adapters and with full useability...now that is choice!
..we are, however, yet to see images from the latest 10mp cameas to see how they measure up against similar dslrs such as canon 400d and nikon d80 etc.
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I suppose the Hy6 is like the 4/3 standard in terms of lens compatibility: Schneider, Zeiss and maybe Leica can make lenses for this Rollei mount.
The connetion between the back and the body is a different story. An unique connections set could be easily developed for the Hy6, but the different brands seem to be inclined to "close" their branded bodies (Leaf at least).