Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Colour Management => Topic started by: texshooter on February 18, 2018, 06:40:10 pm
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My monitor is profiled, but there is a horrible alternating cyan/magenta color cast to grayscale step wedges. Is this normal?
see video here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AW4tuMvmMbw)
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My monitor is profiled, but there is a horrible alternating cyan/magenta color cast to grayscale step wedges. Is this normal?
see video here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AW4tuMvmMbw)
No it isn’t.
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No it isn’t.
But it only happens with step wedges. I notice no strange color casts at any other time. This is bizarre.
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Does this show up creating the step wedge in Photoshop by posterizing set to 21 or whatever number on a black to white gradient?
Or is this a finished and saved step wedge that shows this in all color managed apps?
I can tell you I've never had this issue profiling my 27" LG LED using Colormunki Display.
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Does this show up creating the step wedge in Photoshop by posterizing set to 21 or whatever number on a black to white gradient?
Yes. Both CS4 and CC2018
is this a finished and saved step wedge that shows this in all color managed apps?
Yes. Viewing the saved JPG image in the Chrome browser shows tint shifting, too.
When evaluating the step wedge print, sometimes I see a subtle color shift and sometimes I don't. Depends on how long I stare at it. My intuition is that the print is normal.
I have the latest ColorMunki Photo v1.2.4 software, but the device was bought in 2009. Perhaps newer drivers don't work as well with older devices? My monitor is a Dell 30" 3007wfp-hc, 1,000:1 contrast ratio, 92% NTSC, 2560x1600 res, Windows 7
Either the Dell sucks or the ColorMunki does. I guess I'll never know until I replace one of them.
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Either the Dell sucks or the ColorMunki does. I guess I'll never know until I replace one of them.
You could make the profile available here for download, i'm sure some of the experts here can immediately tell if something is wrong within the profile.
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You could make the profile available here for download, i'm sure some of the experts here can immediately tell if something is wrong within the profile.
Here is the Dell monitor icc profile if anyone cares to put it through the wash. I tried ICC Profile Inspector 2.4 but didn't know what anomalies to look for. Thanks.
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I think I found the problem. You're not using Dell's native white point and relying on Colormunki to set target white point through video card vcgt RGB LUT curve adjusts (see screengrab showing vcgt green channel which is the same as the red, but blue curve is really wonky).
I'll have to correct myself on my previous post and say I did have similar step wedge issues choosing target white point with Colormunki Display profiles on both my previous fluorescent backlit Dell and LG LED.
If you need to achieve a neutral white point on your Dell, I'ld suggest you adjust visually through the display's OSD RGB gains just as I had to do. The Colormunki may not see this as exact D65/6500K as written into the icc display profile but it won't affect overall memory colors that much except maybe slight luminance shifts in reds and blues in color managed previews. I haven't tested this because it's impossible to do so without a measuring device. My prints still match my monitor.
You can see what the Colormunki wrote in white point XY numbers loading the display profile as RGB Working Space in Photoshop's CustomRGB dialog box in Color Settings and plotting those numbers on a Plankian Locus diagram which should place the coordinates close to the area regarded as 6500K.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planckian_locus#/media/File:PlanckianLocus.png
My LG's XY numbers according to Colormunki says my white is slightly magenta-ish blue but it doesn't seem to affect color managed previews . Visually my white point has never looked more neutral. If I adjust RGB gains to get Colormunki Display to give me 6500K XY numbers read in Photoshop Color Settings CustomRGB, my display looks too green. But this red/green white point tint color war has been going on with Xrite products with my iMac, Dell and LG displays for years that I've been told drift from expected standard sRGB gamut and thus makes the colormeter see something different.
As I said before I still get screen to print matches on edited and finished Raw images.
Also make sure you're making a version 2 (not version 4) display profile.
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Wouldn't cataracts influence the perception on both print and screen as well ?
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Wouldn't cataracts influence the perception on both print and screen as well ?
I don't know. I'm not an optometrist and I don't know what the effects of cataracts do to color perception. I was under the impression it made things look foggy or like tunnel vision.
It might be a separate LUT loader issue that's screwing up the step wedge since the OP is on a Windows system. Macs have their vcgt RGB video card correction curves built into the icc profile and load on startup as one file.
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Tim,
Thank you for telling me about the ColorMunki's preferences settings. I completely forgot about them when I recently upgraded to the latest ColorMunki Photo software v1.2.4.
After reading your reply, I changed the ColorMunki preferences (to as seen below) and made a second icc profile (attached). Unfortunately, I still get rainbow step wedges.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4611/39661217694_36fb3d0c30_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/23qJ7fb)ColorMunki Preferences (https://flic.kr/p/23qJ7fb) by texshooter (https://www.flickr.com/photos/136762677@N06/), on Flickr
Let me unpack this.
1. You said "You're not using Dell's native white point and relying on Colormunki to set target white point."
But isn't this the way it's suppose to work? Isn't the ColorMunki suppose to take control of my monitor and set its white point? Are you saying there is something wrong with the Dell 3007 that makes it unresponsive to the ColorMunki's command to set the targeted white point?
2. You said "If you need to achieve a neutral white point on your Dell, I'ld suggest you adjust visually through the display's OSD RGB gains just as I had to do"
The Dell 3007 came with optional OSD software, but I never installed it because I wanted the ColorMunki and GPU duo to control my monitor. (If I remember correctly, the Dell OSD software interfered with the ColorMunki software, but that was 10 yrs ago.) Right now I only have two control buttons on the Dell 3007: one for brightness control and the other to power on/off. Should I install this OSD software here (http://www.dell.com/support/home/us/en/19/drivers/driversdetails?c=us&l=en&s=dhs&driverid=R222148) and manually adjust the whiteness of the display to match what my eye thinks neutral white looks like? And if I do that, the rainbow step wedge problem will be resolved? I don't see how.
3. You said "You can see what the Colormunki wrote in white point XY numbers loading the display profile as RGB Working Space in Photoshop's CustomRGB dialog box in Color Settings and plotting those numbers on a Plankian Locus diagram which should place the coordinates close to the area regarded as 6500K."
Per your instructions I changed the PS working space to the monitor's ICC profile (as shown below), but nowhere does PS show white point XY numbers. I don't follow.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4740/39661735744_093fa07095_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/23qLLf5)PS monitor RGB (https://flic.kr/p/23qLLf5) by texshooter (https://www.flickr.com/photos/136762677@N06/), on Flickr
4. Please note that I use the ColorMunki Photo, not ColorMunki Display. So I may not see the same control options that you do. For example, during the calibration setup the ColorMunki Photo instructs me to manually adjust the screen brightness to reach my target of 120cd/m2. But it does not give me hands-on control over the monitor's color temperature. It simply asks me what temperature I want the ColorMunki to adjust the monitor to and it takes it from there. Does your device instruct you to manually dial in (by OSD buttons) the monitor's color temperature to a target of 6500 kelvin?
5. Were you able to fix your rainbow step wedge problem on your Dell and LG? Or are you saying that despite this problem, your prints match your monitor, and so you didn't have a problem per se to fix?
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Colormunki Display also asks to adjust for target Brightness, mine is at 100cd/m2. I have a selection for Native white point. see screengrab below.
I noticed you have ADC selected in Colormunki prefs so I'm wondering if your Dell uses internal hardware LUTs, but then the vcgt tags should've shown a flat line. Just for testing I'ld turn ADC off and that ambient stuff off. Keep it simple.
Also have you checked to see if Windows is loading the video card LUTs upon startup. There's been issues in the past on this but I'm not familiar with current Windows or Mac OS in this regard.
The native white point selection in Colormunki is useless if you can't access the OSD RGB gains. Or you could choose native and accept the look of your current neutral white point. You should just do it this way just to check if it fixes the off color step wedge.
I tried changing the PS working space to the monitor's ICC profile (as shown below), but nowhere does PS show white point XY numbers. I don't follow.
Sorry for not being specific. Once you have your Dell profile as RGB working space click the menu again, hold and scroll up to CustomRGB... A dialog box will show up indicating white point XY numbers as measured by the Colormunki colormeter and written into the icc profile.
To rule out adaptation and surrounding light influences check there's no color in the current native state of your Dell by viewing a white screen filling the entire screen at night with the lights off. If you can't see any color tint, then your safe to set it to native in Colormunki. The colormeter will see native white as one specific tint that you will never see but the profling software will build RGB video card LUT curves and tweak each one to scale that neutral white tint throughout the rest of the gray tones all the way to black.
Right now I only have two control buttons on the Dell 3007: one for brightness control and the other to power on/off. Should I install this OSD software here and manually adjust the whiteness of the display to match what my eye thinks neutral white looks like? And if I do that, the rainbow step wedge problem will be resolved? I don't see how.
You don't need to see how. Just remake the icc profile with target brightness, native white point, version 2 profile, and turn everything else off - ADC, ambient and whatever else. Don't even mess with the Dell software. It's a process of elimination so start out with the least options.
If that doesn't work reduce Brightness to read at 100cd/m2.
If that doesn't work then install and use the Dell OSD software and try that route.
If that doesn't work, use the Colormunki to profile another display using the simple native settings.
If that doesn't work, call Xrite support.
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Textshooter. I notice that in your screenshot of Photoshop Colour Settings dialogue you have RGB Working Space set to the monitor profile. You need to select a working colour space such as sRGB, Adobe RGB or ProPhoto RGB. Trying to edit in a non-linear space like that from a monitor will give you no end of problems. I don’t know whether this is affecting your display problems.
I use a ColorMunki Photo on a Mac. I set the white point to be D65, not the native point of the display. I do not use LUT to set the luminance of the display neither do I use ADC. It may be that your Windows PC does things differently but I can vouch for the fact that these settings produce good results on an iMac.
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Textshooter. I notice that in your screenshot of Photoshop Colour Settings dialogue you have RGB Working Space set to the monitor profile. You need to select a working colour space such as sRGB, Adobe RGB or ProPhoto RGB. Trying to edit in a non-linear space like that from a monitor will give you no end of problems. I don’t know whether this is affecting your display problems.
I use a ColorMunki Photo on a Mac. I set the white point to be D65, not the native point of the display. I do not use LUT to set the luminance of the display neither do I use ADC. It may be that your Windows PC does things differently but I can vouch for the fact that these settings produce good results on an iMac.
The OP has his RGB working space set to his monitor display profile because I told him to for temporary reasons in order to scroll up to CustomRGB... to see the white point XY numbers Colormunki measured on his display.
He knows not to set his RGB working space to his monitor space.
I do not use LUT to set the luminance of the display neither do I use ADC.
Good catch. I forgot to tell him to not use LUTs to adjust Brightness. Plumb forgot about that little piece of crap adjustment.
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Thank you for the tips. I will experiment with the settings and see what happens. I've been using this Dell monitor for years and never noticed color casts in my light grays when editing or viewing photos. This issue I'm now having only arose after I learned how to build step wedges in PS last week. Ignorance is bliss.
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I noticed you have ADC selected in Colormunki prefs so I'm wondering if your Dell uses internal hardware LUTs, but then the vcgt tags should've shown a flat line.
ADC was disabled, Luminance by Video LUT was disabled, profile version 4 was selected, and 2.2 tone curve was selected when I made the first ICC profile (reply #6 attachment), the one you downloaded and tested. My second ICC profile (reply #10 attachment) had ADC enabled, Luminance by LUT enabled, profile version 2 selected, and 2.2 tone curve selected,
Also have you checked to see if Windows is loading the video card LUTs upon startup?
I did not. How do I check this? The Dell ICC profile appears in the PS color settings> Working Space>RGB> drop down list. If I remember right, the appearance of the monitor's ICC (the one by ColorMunki) in that drop down list means that Windows successfully launched it at startup. Is that what you mean by "Windows loading the video card LUTs upon startup"?
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.....I did not. How do I check this? The Dell ICC profile appears in the PS color settings> Working Space>RGB> drop down list. If I remember right, the appearance of the monitor's ICC (the one by ColorMunki) in that drop down list means that Windows successfully launched it at startup. Is that what you mean by "Windows loading the video card LUTs upon startup"?
You can check if your display is using your monitor profile in Color Management (either via Control Panel or typing Color management in search bar)
Your monitor should be identified as shown in first line, check box ticked and the name of current profile should show as default. Should look similar to the attached (you can pretty much ignore the bottom image settings and leave as default)
Although X Rite default v4 profile it may be best to produce v2
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Although X Rite default v4 profile it may be best to produce v2
It is best since V4 brings nothing useful to the party and can break in some applications.
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The OP has his RGB working space set to his monitor display profile because I told him to for temporary reasons in order to scroll up to CustomRGB... to see the white point XY numbers Colormunki measured on his display.
He knows not to set his RGB working space to his monitor space.
Tim is correct. I did that only to find the XY white point numbers. I do it also to verify that Windows launched the correct monitor ICC profile at start up and to confirm that PS sees it, but I don't select it there. Except for bundled Microsoft apps (such as Windows Photo Viewer), Windows 7 relies on third-party apps lik PS to properly utilize the monitor's default ICC profile. I believe Windows just parks the default ICC somewhere the app can easily access it, but don't quote me on that.
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(you can pretty much ignore the bottom image settings and leave as default)
I'm relieved to here you say that. I was getting worried after reading the following threads by some pretty angry Windows users.
Windows Default Device Profile (https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/windows-color-system-defaults-im-lost.460699/)
'Use Windows Display Calibration' checkbox (https://forums.adobe.com/thread/822469)
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The OP has his RGB working space set to his monitor display profile because I told him to for temporary reasons in order to scroll up to CustomRGB... to see the white point XY numbers Colormunki measured on his display.
For what goal?
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The goal is to see how off from the colormeter's reading of visual white point or at its current unadjusted native state without RGB gains.
If it's WAY off it might induce the software to write the profile in a way that might slightly shift color managed memory colors as I've seen in the past switching from a 5000K display profile to a 6500K but not altering visual white point tint between the two. There's no way to know how much off the XY numbers can be without affecting color managed previews this way.
In my case I haven't seen anything shift that I would notice in screen to print matching sessions.
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The goal is to see how off from the colormeter's reading of visual white point or at its current unadjusted native state without RGB gains.
And which set of values is 'correct'? If either.
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ADC was disabled, Luminance by Video LUT was disabled, profile version 4 was selected, and 2.2 tone curve was selected when I made the first ICC profile (reply #6 attachment), the one you downloaded and tested. My second ICC profile (reply #10 attachment) had ADC enabled, Luminance by LUT enabled, profile version 2 selected, and 2.2 tone curve selected,
Do NOT select version 4 profile.
The Dell ICC profile appears in the PS color settings> Working Space>RGB> drop down list. If I remember right, the appearance of the monitor's ICC (the one by ColorMunki) in that drop down list means that Windows successfully launched it at startup. Is that what you mean by "Windows loading the video card LUTs upon startup"?
Those Your Display selected as RGB working space instructions are only for checking your XY numbers in CustomRGB. Forget about the LUT loader. Your mentioning that you learned how to make step wedges recently is suspect now. To cut to the chase how does this step wedge look on you monitor?...
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And which set of values is 'correct'? If either.
The one that states D65/6500K which shows this in CustomRGB if selected in that dialog box in order to override the XY numbers provided by the custom display profile. The display profile will most likely as in my case show XY numbers slightly different. Plot those XY numbers on the Planckian Locus and compare it to the 6500K position. If the display is WAY OFF as in going clear off the white point arch into saturated territory, there may be issues to check for in color managed previews.
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The one that states D65/6500K which shows this in CustomRGB if selected in that dialog box in order to override the XY numbers provided by the custom display profile. The display profile will most likely as in my case show XY numbers slightly different. Plot those XY numbers on the Planckian Locus and compare it to the 6500K position. If the display is WAY OFF as in going clear off the white point arch into saturated territory, there may be issues to check for in color managed previews.
Again, CCT Kelvin colors define a large RANGE of colors. Again: http://digitaldog.net/files/22Thecolorofwhite.pdf (http://digitaldog.net/files/22Thecolorofwhite.pdf)
And NO, D65 isn't 6500K! D65 is a specifically defined color. CCT 6500K is a range of possible colors.
Lastly, readers should pay attention to the comment about "most likely" when the condition actually is or isn't it, most likely? No one really knows.
No, lastly the unanswered question: which is correct and what makes you believe it is correct?
No again, lastly, do read the issues involved: there is a horrible alternating cyan/magenta color cast to grayscale step wedges. Why just grayscale if as you presume, the display is WAY OFF.
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Again, CCT Kelvin colors define a large RANGE of colors. Again: http://digitaldog.net/files/22Thecolorofwhite.pdf (http://digitaldog.net/files/22Thecolorofwhite.pdf)
And NO, D65 isn't 6500K! D65 is a specifically defined color. CCT 6500K is a range of possible colors.
Lastly, readers should pay attention to the comment about "most likely" when the condition actually is or isn't it, most likely? No one really knows.
No, lastly the unanswered question: which is correct and what makes you believe it is correct?
No again, lastly, do read the issues involved: there is a horrible alternating cyan/magenta color cast to grayscale step wedges. Why just grayscale if as you presume, the display is WAY OFF.
And now the ankle biting starts with Andrew. Was wondering what he was fishing for with the short responses. Looks like he found a hook to offer argumentative "NO HELP" badgering that doesn't fix the OP's problem.
Andrew, do you have any tips to help the OP's issue other than spout color theory?
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Those Your Display selected as RGB working space instructions are only for checking your XY numbers in CustomRGB. Forget about the LUT loader. Your mentioning that you learned how to make step wedges recently is suspect now. ..
You misunderstood me. I have never and would never select my monitor ICC profile for my RGB working space in PS. All I'm saying is that I occasionally look inside the drop down list (see below) and search for my monitor's ICC profile (I don't select it; I only locate it). If it's in the list, that tells me that Windows successfully launched the correct monitor ICC at startup and that PS is communicating correctly with the operating system. You had asked me if I "checked to see if Windows is loading the video card LUTs upon startup." That is how I check to make sure. Yes, of course, I can also go to Control Panel>Color Management and verify that the desired monitor ICC profile is flagged as "Default," but I go the extra step and peek inside Photoshop's Color Settings>Working Spaces>RGB drop down list to make sure PS has locked onto the correct monitor profile. I made my step wedges in aRGB, ProphotoRGB, sRGB, as I should have. It's my understanding that PS and Windows need to be on the same page with regards to the monitor's ICC profile, and I'm just making sure they are.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4615/39491254655_17687b8272_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/23aH19X)PS find monitor (https://flic.kr/p/23aH19X) by texshooter (https://www.flickr.com/photos/136762677@N06/), on Flickr
To cut to the chase how does this step wedge look on you monitor?.
It looks horrible--magenta/cyan casts everywhere--just like the step wedges I made myself. I'm going down your check list of things to try. I'm still working on it.
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You misunderstood me. I have never and would never select my monitor ICC profile for my RGB working space in PS.
It looks horrible--magenta/cyan casts everywhere--just like the step wedges I made myself. I'm going down your check list of things to try. I'm still working on it.
I said that in reference to finding the XY white point coordinates in your custom display profile by scrolling up to CustomRGB. To load your display profile and have its XY numbers show up in CustomRGB..., you have to first load your display profile as an RGB Working Space (for temporary purposes/cancel out of CustomRGB and cancel out of Color Settings and it automatically returns your original RGB Working Space). That's all I meant. Another poster without reading our exchanges thought you set your display as your RGB Working Space permanently. I was assuring that person that wasn't what you were doing.
Now that my grayramp looks just as screwed up, that rules out a botched step wedge which I've also encountered creating one in Lab space and applying 21 step under Posterize filter in Photoshop and got odd colors. So that's why I needed to find out how you made your step wedge.
So if you can't fix this with all the suggestion I've outlined you may have either a faulty colormeter and/or aging display that might be fixed by reducing Brightness.
I've offered as much help as I can. Good luck with your situation. Maybe Andrew with his professional expertise can solve this for you.
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It is a Dell after all, lest we forget. :-\
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It is a Dell after all, lest we forget. :-\
Yeah, I had a Dell 22" but it developed dark markings that resembled the internal metal support grid underpinnings. I still have it but replaced it with the LG 27" LED from Best Buy and its white point range of hues has drifted away from what Colormunki Display considers a standard hue.
When my LG was new back in 2013 the Colormunki nailed the 6500K XY numbers seen in CustomRGB. Now it doesn't so I don't know what to trust, the aging Colormunki colormeter or the condition of my LG.
I still get screen to print matches on edited images so I don't worry about it.
And my camera has a very sensitive AWB shooting Raw in that I have to always correct for white balance shooting outdoors. My LG white and gray looks quite neutral and my images of daylight scenes look very realistic as I remember. Where's the problem?
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And now the ankle biting starts with Andrew.
Was wondering what he was fishing for with the short responses. Looks like he found a hook to offer argumentative "NO HELP" badgering that doesn't fix the OP's problem.
Is that your coded answer when I ask you actually explain what you wrote in a technically correct fashion? The OP will be aided by ignoring the rabbit hole you've started and your confusion over CCT values and those that define specific color values.
Andrew, do you have any tips to help the OP's issue other than spout color theory?
I did add text to aid the OP and again, you failed to either read or understand them. Type a bit less, study the subject a bit more first. You're not in the position or knowledge, based on the text today to spout color science but you're doing a fair job at the color science fiction! :P
Now it doesn't so I don't know what to trust, the aging Colormunki colormeter or the condition of my LG.
I completely agree with the text above that isn't struck through FWIW!
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You misunderstood me. I have never and would never select my monitor ICC profile for my RGB working space in PS. All I'm saying is that I occasionally look inside the drop down list (see below) and search for my monitor's ICC profile (I don't select it; I only locate it).
You're correct on both counts! Using PS to examine what it is actually using for the display profile, as you did, is a great and simple way to see what the system and PS is using for a profile of your display. And I suspect, unlike Tim, had you picked it as a working space, you'd be in far, far worse shape then you are in now!
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Textshooter. I have found it is very easy to get one’s self tied in knots with colour management. What you need to do is try to eliminate what may be causing the problem – is it the monitor, the operating system, colour management, or the profile (or something else) ?
Here are some suggestions you may like to try. Have you been able to display the greyscale at all without colour shifts ? Under what conditions was this possible ? Have you tried not using colour management (is this possible on Windows) ? Have you tried not using the profile created by the ColorMunki ? Is it possible that you only noticed these colour shifts once you started looking critically at the greyscale ? If you are able to try another monitor on your computer, and then profile it; do the similar colour shifts appear ?
Through bitter experience I have found the only way to solve these problems is by taking a meticulous scientific approach eliminating the possibilities one by one; and you need to be very patient !
Good luck !
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Textshooter. I have found it is very easy to get one’s self tied in knots with colour management.
Indeed! Especially when following some advise that only sends you down an illogical rabbit hole. We've seen that thus far here.
Your ideas for testing the actual issues here are sound and the OP should follow them and report back. Examining the display profile or what tags it suggests is such a rabbit hole.
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Try eliminating one factor at a time to come up with the source of the issue:
Switch out just displays (borrow another if necessary): problem persists, it isn't your display.
Switch out just Colorimeter: problem persists, it isn't your measuring device.
Try a vastly different profile setting for WP and if possible, set the software for a Native Gamma. Better, worse?
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Try eliminating one factor at a time to come up with the source of the issue:
Switch out just displays (borrow another if necessary): problem persists, it isn't your display.
Switch out just Colorimeter: problem persists, it isn't your measuring device.
Try a vastly different profile setting for WP and if possible, set the software for a Native Gamma. Better, worse?
I don't have another monitor to test. Actually, I did have a Dell laptop but it croaked a month ago (just in time, thanks Dell).
And I'm not going to buy a new colorimeter because the next monitor I buy will have a built-in one.
I tried different profile settings (like sRGB and random profiles on the list), but the problem persists more or less.
The Dell 3007 came with it own ICC profile file, but It won't install for some reason.
I downloaded the Dell OSD software thinking I might try manually dialing in the contrast, WP, and luminance instead of letting the Colormunki ADC engine take control. But the OSD software won't work. That's again Dell.
I tried calibrating the monitor to the "native" WP, but got ugly yellow whites. I don't think the Colormunki software is able to identify what the Dell's native WP is. Don't I need to reset the monitor to the factory default settings first? And how can I do that when there's no control buttons on the monitor and no functioning OSD panel?
The upside to the story is I experimented with calibrating the monitor to 5500K instead of the standard 6500K, and photos now look more colorful and pleasing to the eye. So I'll set the 5500K ICC profile as default. And move on with my life.
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The upside to the story is I experimented with calibrating the monitor to 5500K instead of the standard 6500K, and photos now look more colorful and pleasing to the eye.
Well that's progress and there's zero reason why you should consider ANY set of values other than those that produce the desired results. My WP is set for CCT 5150K on my SpectraView. Not 5200K, not 5100K, nether were ideal or correct. Just keep raising or lowering the values until you hit the value that produces the calibration you visually desire.
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I took a look at the vcgt data. Nothing seems that off. The tilt up at the end of the blue response is a bit more than I've run across but otherwise pretty standard curves.
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I took a look at the vcgt data. Nothing seems that off. The tilt up at the end of the blue response is a bit more than I've run across but otherwise pretty standard curves.
That one may look acceptable, but when I choose "Native" for my monitor's target white point in i1Studio, I get a pretty wonky curve.
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That doesn't look all that strange. The steps are typical of the LUTs when truncated to 8 bits. The profile you posted earlier has 16 bit LUTs. Looks like your system is displaying 8 bits. The jaggies are due to the the 8 bit LUTs having to skip steps, or advance 2 steps depending on the slope.
Video LUTs can be either 8 bit or 16 bit depending on the card. Some cards will use more than 8 bits and dither the pixels to create in between colors.
However, the color shifts you are getting are way beyond that caused by 8 bit stepping anomalies. These can create slightly funky gradients and is one of the reasons the best monitors use internal LUTs rather than the ones in a video card and leave the video card LUTs in a one-to-one state. But they don't produce the large color shifts you are seeing. Something else is going on. As others said, you need to break it down and find some way to test each device separately. Though, of course you would have to have access to the hardware.
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The panel is likely 6 or 8 bit so it has to be downsampled somewhere in the chain. AS Doug pointed out, that doesn't really account for the colour shifts.
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What about accounting for the aging of the display running it at 120cd/m2 for that many years.
BTW I loaded the Dell "Native" profile in Photoshop's CustomRGB and it reads a perfect 6500K/D65, but the OP says it looks better setting it to 5500K through the video card which I'm assuming fixes the bad highlight gradients. That sounds like a display set too bright that it loses linearity between each RGB channel.
Why not set brightness to 100 cd/m2 and profile it with a native WP and then the desired warmer 5500K using the video card just to see if it is on account of an aging display?
I can tell you through my 20 years calibrating my own displays from CRT's to Fluorescent to LED I've never had to resort to using vcgt LUT curves to achieve a specific brightness and color of white.
And I still got screen to print matches.
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Well this doesn't make any sense. Why does the Dell 3007_native.icc profile have a vcgt tag with adjusted LUT curves. Native tells the software NOT to do anything with the video card unless adjusting brightness.
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BTW I loaded the Dell "Native" profile in Photoshop's CustomRGB and it reads a perfect 6500K/D65, but the OP says it looks better setting it to 5500K through the video card which I'm assuming fixes the bad highlight gradients.
Illustrates the idea of this loading profile in Photoshop to view CCT values (which are not the same as Standard Illuminants) as suggested, assumed to be prefect, is largely a waste of time. But that was outlined days ago.
Glad to see the OP is making progress by concentrating on finding a WP setting in the calibration product that produces a desired result. It's something most of us have to do anyway! The exception of course are those that read people make silly statements like: always calibrate your display to (fill in the blank). They think in their ignorance they are helping, they are not. :'(
CCT 5150K on my NEC with my viewing booth, with a specific cd/m^2 produces a very, very close match for me between print and display. I'd NEVER suggest anyone use my settings unless they were using the identical display (PA272W), same colorimeter, same viewing booth, same ambient conditions as I do.
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So are you saying that the plotted xy numbers according to how they fall on the Planckian Locus don't coorelate to a hue of white. That they're just numbers and the software decides what those numbers look like?
If this is so then there's no way that you can get all calibrated displays to look the same which defeats the purpose of calibrating/profiling.
If goal post on what xy numbers look like on a display keeps being moved then your whole premise falls apart.
Andrew, you're not a color scientist and you don't seem to be offering any help to the OP.
At least I'm trying. You're just being A-HOLE as usual.
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Well this doesn't make any sense.
You have actual testing to do:
http://www.brucelindbloom.com/index.html?Vcgt.html
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You have actual testing to do:
http://www.brucelindbloom.com/index.html?Vcgt.html
Quote from that link...
If a profile is loaded that has no vcgt tag, you can see if the video LUT is left alone or if some default curve is loaded instead.
That's all I needed to read which confirms my point. I already know about linear vcgt tags. How does the OP find out if something is being loaded in its place when there should be nothing?
That might help him if you can tell how to determine that.
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So are you saying that the plotted xy numbers according to how they fall on the Planckian Locus don't coorelate to a hue of white.
Seems you need to study what the Planckian Locus really is (or isn't).
Andrew, you're not a color scientist and you don't seem to be offering any help to the OP.
No, I'm not a color scientist, clearly you're not based on your text here. You assume (again) I'm not offering the OP help, despite his text and despite the fact you have no idea if I've helped the OP or not.
You are trying to create rabbit holes for him, meanwhile, while you were futzing around in Photoshop, coming up with flat earth ideas about color, he's moved on and improved his situation by avoiding much of the silly text here by one poster and elsewhere, from folks that are neither color scientists or experts on color, by trying differing calibration settings. So yeah, I'm fine being an A hole here attempting to aid him and teach you how this color stuff actually works.
What is your agenda in wasting his time sir?
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That might help him if you can tell how to determine that.
Nope! He's on the right path (with my help I believe to some degree) if he hasn't found it fully already. You'd be hip to that if you actually read what he wrote (or what I write). What is your agenda in wasting his time sir?
Try reading what he wrote, one word at a time with my formatting as an aid:
The upside to the story is I experimented with calibrating the monitor to 5500K instead of the standard 6500K, and photos now look more colorful and pleasing to the eye. So I'll set the 5500K ICC profile as default. And move on with my life.
I think I found the problem.
I think not!
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Oh, you already helped him in this thread?
I read through this thread and didn't find where you helped him.
And my agenda is to simply help the guy and learn if an aging display or Window's CM system could be causing issues.
You haven't helped at all. Could you just copy and paste the input that helped the OP? I couldn't find it.
I just can't believe someone as the OP is having this much trouble with a display and you still haven't told anyone why or how to fix it.
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Oh, you already helped him in this thread?
I believe so but I'll let him speak for himself unlike you sir:
http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=123300.msg1028763#msg1028763 (http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=123300.msg1028763#msg1028763)
See and attempt to understand suggestion #3 that I made. I'll even paste it for you and apply more formatting to focus your reading comprehension:
Try a vastly different profile setting for WP and if possible, set the software for a Native Gamma. Better, worse?
And now attempt again to read his reply:
The upside to the story is I experimented with calibrating the monitor to 5500K instead of the standard 6500K, and photos now look more colorful and pleasing to the eye. So I'll set the 5500K ICC profile as default. And move on with my life.
Meanwhile, you're futzing around looking at CCT values in Photoshop and lumping them together with a standard Illumiant and worse, proposing to the poor OP, you've got some idea to help him. Nope.
I couldn't find it.
You're lost, that is why.
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What I can't figure out is why this thread has gotten over 1000 views but the OP's YouTube video only gets 80. That means very few people reading bothered to view the video so not only is there very few people interested in seeing this as a problem but they're not even concerned about learning from this experience.
But I looked at the video again to note that the OP's video camera capture his display using AWB to show either 6500K he had it at is too cool or too warm but he states native is too yellow.
So Andrew, are you saying that it doesn't matter if it's 6500K or 5500K, they both can look identical in neutrality and not to trust what hue of white they represent on the Planckian Locus?
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What I can't figure out...,
So Andrew, are you saying that it doesn't matter if it's 6500K or 5500K, they both can look identical in neutrality and not to trust what hue of white they represent on the Planckian Locus?
There’s a lot you can’t figure out by your own admission here more than once in this thread! It is common to see from amateurs (clearly unlike some here, your day job, what you do for a living is not professional color management consulting or photography!).
As to your question; start a new thread instead of hijacking this one. Probably study what the Planckin Locus actually is first; ask a silly questions then if you must.
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More clues:
My Dell3007 may be 10 years old, but it's been in storage for 8 of those years (climate controlled, dust free). So I doubt aging of the CCFL screen is to blame.
I don't believe the white balance settings on my video camera, which recorded the video I posted on YouTube, is relevant. The Youtube video was merely to show the alternating cyan/magenta seepage, not to point out the quality of the white point.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4676/25579197927_ea9dd470be.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/EYm5nV)color seepage (https://flic.kr/p/EYm5nV) by texshooter (https://www.flickr.com/photos/136762677@N06/), on Flickr
And yes, the Dell factory profile cures at least 50% of the cyan/magenta seepage problem.
I've attached the Dell factory profile to this post. Perhaps it bears a clue to why it works so much better than the custom profiles I posted earlier. I suspect something screwy is going on with how the LUTs are working (or not working) with my custom profiles. That doesn't mean it's X-Rite's fault. There could be a problem with how the vsgt tags are loading, like Tim was saying. Or something could be wrong with how X-Rite's ADC is handled by the computer. Unfortunately, I wouldn't know where to begin to test whether the problem is with the graphics card or the monitor. Did I mention this darn thing doesn't even have knobs to control contrast and color temperature? Jeez, even my first TV when I was a kid came with those.
I've borrowed a friend's monitor and will be doing some tests on it, as well. Wait, I thought I was moving on with my life?
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What I can't figure out is why this thread has gotten over 1000 views but the OP's YouTube video only gets 80. That means very few people reading bothered to view the video so not only is there very few people interested in seeing this as a problem but they're not even concerned about learning from this experience.
Simple really, tex has an interesting problem and people want to help or see if it's something they have encountered or learn from in case they encounter it.
The reason for the difference in view counts is that once people see the video, they pretty much understand the issue. But as more people comment and offer suggestions the overall thread view count keeps increasing. I've probably viewed the thread 30 times to see if there has been any resolution but I've only watched the video twice.
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And let me add these conundrums.
1. i1Studio recommends that I reset the monitor to its factory defaults before calibrating. But I can't because the OSD software doesn't work and because there are no physical buttons on the monitor (except for brightness and power on/off). Could the failure to reset the monitor to factory defaults cause any problems with the calibration?
2. After I press the measure button in i1Studio, I get a one second warning message at the lower right corner of the screen, which reads
"The color scheme has been changed to Windows Basic. A running program isn't compatible with certain visual elements of Windows."
Should I do something to fix this?
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Avoid OSD (and the Spyder*) like the plague.
Did you try differing backlight display options in the software with the same settings otherwise?
I'd suggest borrowing or renting an i1Display Pro with it's software which has vastly larger options for setting the calibration of white (and other attributes). Plus i1Studio (if you're referring to the newer X-rite product) may be buggy if history is any indicator. With the i1 Display Pro, you'll have a very good colorimeter for the task and software with far more options in getting closer to your goal. IF with this new test, you still have issues, it aims towards the display, video card or something else, other than the calibration/color management part of this process being suspect.
http://iephotorentals.com/xbrite-display-pro (http://iephotorentals.com/xbrite-display-pro)
And please move ahead with your life by avoiding all this silly stuff about viewing your existing and undesired profiles, their numbers they supposedly show etc. Apparently tell testing shows otherwise, the profiles and/or calibration suck; that's all you need to know before moving on to the next test to resolve the issue. You got closer altering WP which shows some progress.
* http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=103094.msg845726#msg845726 (http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=103094.msg845726#msg845726)
The higher the reported dE, the worse the unit preformed. So you'll see two Spyder's (newest models) were 9.9 and 7.2 which is pretty awful. The X-rite products were 1.4 and as low as 0.8!
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And let me add these conundrums.
1. i1Studio recommends that I reset the monitor to its factory defaults before calibrating. But I can't because the OSD software doesn't work and because there are no physical buttons on the monitor (except for brightness and power on/off). Could the failure to reset the monitor to factory defaults cause any problems with the calibration?
Usually I would expect some sort of hard reset option rather than relying on software alone. It may be a combination of button presses to be held for a number of seconds to set back to factory state. Maybe fire off an email to Dell customer support and ask how to reset without software or if not possible how to run in your version of Windows.
I'm going to take a guess that IF the monitor holds the value last input (8 years ago?) that you may have issues due to the graphics card limitations on controlling the look. IMHO it is always best to get back to factory conditions if at all possible.
TBH, even though the monitor is new'ish to you it is 10 years old, a couple of lifetimes in technology and if you cannot get any drivers to allow access to the OSD then perhaps it may be time to consider an upgrade to a modern system and either retire the 3007 or repurpose for something else?
2. After I press the measure button in i1Studio, I get a one second warning message at the lower right corner of the screen, which reads
"The color scheme has been changed to Windows Basic. A running program isn't compatible with certain visual elements of Windows."
Should I do something to fix this?
No this warning generally is nothing to worry about as it just tells you that the Aero Windows theme (probably?) is not suited due to certain element (Opacity etc?) not compatible to a running program. Maybe i1Studio? It should not affect the application running correctly.
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More clues:
My Dell3007 may be 10 years old, but it's been in storage for 8 of those years (climate controlled, dust free). So I doubt aging of the CCFL screen is to blame.
I don't believe the white balance settings on my video camera, which recorded the video I posted on YouTube, is relevant. The Youtube video was merely to show the alternating cyan/magenta seepage, not to point out the quality of the white point.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4676/25579197927_ea9dd470be.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/EYm5nV)color seepage (https://flic.kr/p/EYm5nV) by texshooter (https://www.flickr.com/photos/136762677@N06/), on Flickr
And yes, the Dell factory profile cures at least 50% of the cyan/magenta seepage problem.
I've attached the Dell factory profile to this post. Perhaps it bears a clue to why it works so much better than the custom profiles I posted earlier. I suspect something screwy is going on with how the LUTs are working (or not working) with my custom profiles. That doesn't mean it's X-Rite's fault. There could be a problem with how the vsgt tags are loading, like Tim was saying. Or something could be wrong with how X-Rite's ADC is handled by the computer. Unfortunately, I wouldn't know where to begin to test whether the problem is with the graphics card or the monitor. Did I mention this darn thing doesn't even have knobs to control contrast and color temperature? Jeez, even my first TV when I was a kid came with those.
Got the same step wedge highlight anomalies in your posted images when I tweaked my CFL Dell 22in. Offset and Gain adjusts accessed through the display's factory set ROM OSD menu I had to go online to find out what button combos brought it up. I first recorded the Offset/Gain RGB numbers as is so if I screwed something up doing this I could go back.
And sure enough after applying the ROM tweaks and profiling with i1Match software/original i1Display colormeter, I got the same step wedge highlight color issues.
That's why I suggested you reduce brightness because just like with editing Raw on going too far with Expose To The Right, if there's any issues with RGB non-linearity caused by near saturation it will affect highlight color detail.
But also the native profile should not make your display look yellow and certainly shouldn't have that much of a correction in the blue channel LUT curve. I haven't seen one display at Best Buy or anywhere where displays off the shelf look yellow in their native white point.
And I just checked out that Dell factory profile you provided and it's just a simplified canned sRGB profile. It's useless because it doesn't have any video card LUTs/vcgt curves.
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Did I mention this darn thing doesn't even have knobs to control contrast and color temperature? Jeez, even my first TV when I was a kid came with those.
Just checked out the newer IPS displays at Best Buy and they have a beautiful 1920x1018 27" IPS AOC display going for $169 and I'm sure it allows plenty of access to the OSD but you can always return it if it doesn't. Never saw a more neutral looking white display out of the box.
That's where I bought my 27" IPS LG I've been editing 100's of Raws on for the past 5 years. Colomunki Display still renders my vcgt curves close to straight line with slight tweaks to correct for RGB biases throughout the black to white step wedge.
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Just checked out the newer IPS displays at Best Buy and they have a beautiful 1920x1018 27" IPS AOC display going for $169 and I'm sure it allows plenty of access to the OSD but you can always return it if it doesn't. Never saw a more neutral looking white display out of the box.
That's where I bought my 27" IPS LG I've been editing 100's of Raws on for the past 5 years. Colomunki Display still renders my vcgt curves close to straight line with slight tweaks to correct for RGB biases throughout the black to white step wedge.
It's both funny and sad that I can even see color shifts on the photo of your LG screen displaying the photo of your step wedge . To think I spent $1500 for this Dell clunker, and they even gave me a fake profile, to boot. But at least that sRGB profile works better than anything else I've been able to get from the ColorMunki. And yes, I've tried making profiles at lower luminance settings (as low as 60cd), but still no luck. Strange thing is that when I change the default profiles in Windows from 120cd to 80cd, the brightness of my screen does not change. I thought profiles were suppose to automatically adjust the screen brightness? Probably another glitch.
Next time I buy a monitor, I'll know what to test first. Life is too short to make such costly mistakes.
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Got the same step wedge highlight anomalies in your posted images when I tweaked my CFL Dell 22in. Offset and Gain adjusts accessed through the display's factory set ROM OSD menu I had to go online to find out what button combos brought it up. I first recorded the Offset/Gain RGB numbers as is so if I screwed something up doing this I could go back.
And sure enough after applying the ROM tweaks and profiling with i1Match software/original i1Display colormeter, I got the same step wedge highlight color issues.
Let me get this straight. Are you saying that after tweeking (that is, throwing off on purpose) the manual Gain controls on your monitor, your subsequent profile gave you similar abnormalities as my profiles? This would suggest that the factory settings on my Dell is poorly tuned. Unfortunately, the only way to fine-tune the gains is through the OSD software, which Dell does not offer. The latest version of the Dell OSD driver only works with Vista and XP. I'm stuck with the factory settings as they exist now, sadly.
But let's say that I did have the OSD panel working? Why would that be helpful? Isn't it the job of the profile to tweek the monitor's calibration settings (gamma, temp, luminance) to what they should be. Why would I need to prep the monitor first with a dose of OSD manual gain adjustments?
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It's both funny and sad that I can even see color shifts on the photo of your LG screen displaying the photo of your step wedge .
Kind of illustrates viewing a photo of a display, converted to sRGB, viewed on the web does't bode well for analysis. I don't think you'd be impressed if I did the same on a much better reference display system; NEC SpectraView PA272W (which you'd love). ;D
To think I spent $1500 for this Dell clunker, and they even gave me a fake profile, to boot. But at least that sRGB profile works better than anything else I've been able to get from the ColorMunki.
I still think the ColorMunki or some setting is the highest suspect here.
And yes, I've tried making profiles at lower luminance settings (as low as 60cd), but still no luck.
Another rabbit hole you didn't need to jump into. In fact, the lower you go, the more likely you'll run into further issues! Something those who advise such low levels are not understanding. There's a native backlight intensity and it can only go so low. And 60 cd/m^2 is REALLY low! Very few displays can target this natively meaning, the lower brightness has to be accomplished in the LUT, not in the panel and you gain nothing but banding and issues. Stay away from that rabbit hole: get the WP set first, then adjust the backlight until you get a visual match between display and print viewing station assuming that's your goal:
(http://digitaldog.net/files/Print_to_Screen_Matching.jpg)
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But let's say that I did have the OSD panel working? Why would that be helpful? Isn't it the job of the profile to tweek the monitor's calibration settings (gamma, temp, luminance) to what they should be. Why would I need to prep the monitor first with a dose of OSD manual gain adjustments?
Some (better, higher end) reference display systems conduct ALL this IN the panel hardware. That's the way to do it! That's how SpectraView (and Eizo) do it. It's how everyone should do it!
Ignore OSD; you don't have a choice it seems anyway with this display. Or find a product that handles all this correctly, in the panel, with mated software and better, a system like SpectraView where you can create multiple calibration settings and associated profiles! All to be loaded on the fly, when you need them, with the host software controlling the panel's electronics in the panel.
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Some (better, higher end) reference display systems conduct ALL this IN the panel hardware. That's the way to do it! That's how SpectraView (and Eizo) do it. It's how everyone should do it!
Lesson learned.
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But let's say that I did have the OSD panel working? Why would that be helpful? Isn't it the job of the profile to tweek the monitor's calibration settings (gamma, temp, luminance) to what they should be. Why would I need to prep the monitor first with a dose of OSD manual gain adjustments?
Concerning regular OSD and what a profile is expected to do, you want a display that is in a state that is close to a standard for image editing. Those standards are a linear step wedge where each step (21 steps as an example) shows an even progression from black to white all neutral. 2.2 gamma is this standard that affects contrast to achieve this linear appearance. Brightness adjust just brightens equally from black all the way up the tonal scale to maintain this even progression of the 21 steps.
Most current displays fit this standard. My LG did not need very much adjustments except for Contrast (makes whites very bright and blacks very black) Brightness (just as I said before, it raises the overall brightness while maintaining contrast relationship.
If your Dell is that old using CFL backlighting technology, I'ld suggest you upgrade your display to an LED. As I indicated above the AOC is the lowest priced I've seen and the quality has gotten pretty good. Buy one if you can in a big box store so you can return it if it has screen non-uniformity. LED displays in general are very energy efficient (don't get hot like my CFL Dell did) and are quite stable and pretty much fit the standard outlined above.
Your ColorMunki colormeter still has to measure the color response of the display's close to standard condition because not all displays exhibit the same color gamut volume. Just because claims of certain percentages of AdobeRGB gamut doesn't indicate which of those colors are left out and which are included. Color managed previews are drawn on the screen by an A/B mapping system that adjusts the video card output to reflect what the display is doing to those colors in reference to CIELab standard. To go from point A to point B on a map with color managed previews, the display's color response has to be measured and that's what the profile aids in doing.
The profile can do two things...it can provide RGB bias correction present in a step wedge (this is the video LUT or vcgt) and it provides a description of its color characteristics not affected by what the LUT does to color when it neutralizes white balance biases.
You want all 8 bits working in your video card for each RGB and making the video card through software adjust brightness, contrast and white point reduces those bits.
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Update:
1. I plugged my friend's Viewsonic monitor into my computer. I can see color seepage on it, too. More subtle than my Dell but noticeable, nonetheless. I also made a custom profile with the ColorMunki for the Viewsonic, but that didn't fix it either.
2. When the Viewsonic monitor is plugged into a different computer, I can see subtle color seepage, as well.
This rules out defects with the ColorMunki and graphics card. I conclude that either the color seepage issue is an inherent problem with all "low end" monitors, or the problem is with how my brain interprets grayscale wedges. I know that sounds kooky, but I'm willing to accept the possibility that it's all in my head. Visual perception is a fabrication of the brain, after all.
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Update:
1. I plugged my friend's Viewsonic monitor into my computer. I can see color seepage on it, too. More subtle than my Dell but noticeable, nonetheless. I also made a custom profile with the ColorMunki for the Viewsonic, but that didn't fix it either.
2. When the Viewsonic monitor is plugged into a different computer, I can see subtle color seepage, as well.
This rules out defects with the ColorMunki and graphics card. I conclude that either the color seepage issue is an inherent problem with all "low end" monitors, or the problem is with how my brain interprets grayscale wedges. I know that sounds kooky, but I'm willing to accept the possibility that it's all in my head. Visual perception is a fabrication of the brain, after all.
Hard to say what's going on exactly. I can analyze more exactly what the errors are if you take a picture of the monitor image. Set your camera for F16 ISO 100 2 sec. and post the RAW file. Position the camera so that the strip goes across between 20% and 40% of the camera frame and shoot it head on in a darkened room.
I'll run it through dcraw in linear mode and post the results.
If possible a shot with a continuous gradient would be useful as well.
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Update:
1. I plugged my friend's Viewsonic monitor into my computer. I can see color seepage on it, too. More subtle than my Dell but noticeable, nonetheless. I also made a custom profile with the ColorMunki for the Viewsonic, but that didn't fix it either.
2. When the Viewsonic monitor is plugged into a different computer, I can see subtle color seepage, as well.
This rules out defects with the ColorMunki and graphics card. I conclude that either the color seepage issue is an inherent problem with all "low end" monitors, or the problem is with how my brain interprets grayscale wedges. I know that sounds kooky, but I'm willing to accept the possibility that it's all in my head. Visual perception is a fabrication of the brain, after all.
Your vision is just fine. Your YouTube video clearly shows the color shifts in the step wedge highlights. This is not normal and has nothing to do with low end displays. I mean you paid $1500 for your Dell. I wouldn't say it's a low quality display. I paid $330 for my LG and as you can see it looks fine.
Have you ruled out the LUT loader? Can you clear it of any display profiles both in the loader and on your system (not familiar on how to do that on Windows)?
Then load the canned sRGB profile you posted that doesn't have a LUT to load. With a cleared LUT your display should not look yellow.
Is the Viewsonic yellowish without a LUT to load?
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It gets weirder still. After unplugging the Viewsonic monitor from my computer's 2nd DVI port, I examined my set of step wedges one more time and could not see any color seepage. I couldn't believe it, so I restarted my computer to see if it was a fluke. After restart, the color seepage has returned. I will take some snapshots like Doug requested. It doesn't make any sense.
My problem is not that my profile is too yellow. My problem is a pinkish tint seepage in various shades of gray. Yes, I mentioned earlier that the native WP profile I made with the ColorMunki looked too yellow. But, I threw that profile away and made a new one with different settings. The new native WP profile I am using now is a little warm but not yellow. I also mentioned earlier that I liked the 5500K profile the best. Well, now that profile looks too magenta, so I tossed it. The generic sRGB profile looks the best. I feel like nothing is staying put and that each new profile I build is influenced by previous profiles or whichever profile that was loaded at the time I made the new one.
The color seepage problem is not as bad now as it was in the beginning, which makes me wonder if differences in monitor warm up times is partly to blame for the inconsistencies . I'll remove extraneous profiles from the Windows Color Management pane, but I don't see how that hurts anything because only one profile can be selected as the default. I will research on how to identify and disable any LUT loaders working in the background that I dont know about. X-rite Device Services Manager comes to mind.
Also, when I compare one profile to another I simply left click on a new profile and then click the Make Default button. The colors always change, which convinces me the OS properly reloaded the new profile on the fly. Although not sure if I should always restart after changing the default profile. I hope not. That would take forever.
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It gets weirder still. After unplugging the Viewsonic monitor from my computer's 2nd DVI port, I examined my set of step wedges one more time and could not see any color seepage. I couldn't believe it, so I restarted my computer to see if it was a fluke. After restart, the color seepage has returned. I will take some snapshots like Doug requested. It doesn't make any sense.
Not sure I understand the steps taken. You just unplugged and plugged it in and that temporarily fixed the leakage?
My problem is not that my profile is too yellow. My problem is a pinkish tint seepage in various shades of gray.
WB over magenta/green bias CAN be adjusted with some, higher end solutions like the already recommended i1Display Pro product (software). IF all your software allows is control over yellow/blue (color temp), you're not going to be able to do anything about a magenta cast.
The color seepage problem is not as bad now as it was in the beginning, which makes me wonder if differences in monitor warm up times is partly to blame for the inconsistencies
How long does it take to show?
You've spent a lot of time and have had a lot of frustrations due to this POS display from Dell. How much longer do you want to fight with it? Or run down rabbit holes? Time is money. Least expensive possible solution is to try renting an i1Display Pro but the absolute fix is to replace this awful display with something much better that was designed for this task, something like a NEC SpectraView with their software and a supported instrument, again ideally an i1Display Pro!
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Before you go off and buy a new display such as the very expensive NEC, I'ld suggest you sort out this LUT loader issue because if there's something going wrong with your Windows system and possibly how it influences or impedes calibration software, you're just throwing good money after bad.
You should not have put the Viewsonic on the second input. That introduced a variable that's well known with dual monitor setups on Windows systems concerning issues sharing graphic card LUT's and which one is dominant over the other. Macs can only show one white point (the corner point representing 255RGB) on a dual monitor setup but it can share the rest of LUT RGB bias curve adjusts down to black. So if one display has a custom target white point (255 curves like your blue channel pull down) and the other is native wp (no highlight pull down curves) the target better make the native look the same. It's a confusing mess which is why I don't do dual monitor setups. 27in. is plenty room to edit images for me.
So to press the point...One LUT, one input, one display at a time.
Don't be thrown by slight changes to white point hues as you work through this. You've now figured out it's not your display as the problem once you retest the Viewsonic on the same video input.
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Before you go off and buy a new display such as the very expensive NEC, I'ld suggest you sort out this LUT loader issue because if there's something going wrong with your Windows system and possibly how it influences or impedes calibration software, you're just throwing good money after bad.
Far more likely throwing good money at a superb product (own one?). And a product that has far more capabilities than the POS he's using today.
For some of us, pro's that is; time is money. Even at minimum wage, the OP has lost a lot of time and money, especially when chasing rabbits down holes. :o
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Andrew, since you poke fun at me with my Walmart print matching evidence implicating me as having stock in Walmart, I'm going to accuse you of being way too close to NEC and Xrite products seeing you now have a featured article over on Xrite's site.
I'm just a hobbyist photographer who makes things work on a shoestring budget and it's been working for me this way for over 15 years. What's your excuse for not being able to help the OP?
Don't you have some convention you should be at shilling NEC and Xrite products?
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IF this is the Dell 3007, when it first arrived back in 06, it cost 2,199 according to CNET. Ouch! The OP can pick up a 27" NEC PA for a good grand less than that today. WITH an instrument and software.
What's the saying about Penny wise and dollar foolish?
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IF this is the Dell 3007, when it first arrived back in 06, it cost 2,199 according to CNET. Ouch! The OP can pick up a 27" NEC PA for a good grand less than that today. WITH an instrument and software.
What's the saying about Penny wise and dollar foolish?
Can you confirm with evidence that the OP is not having issues with how Windows loads LUTs and whether the calibration software at some point during the measuring process is capable of clearing those LUTs or some other issue? Because a native wp should not have any adjustments to the 255RGB portion of the LUT curves.
Can you prove it's the display that is at issue?
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Andrew, since you poke fun at me with my Walmart print matching evidence implicating me as having stock in Walmart, I'm going to accuse you of being way too close to NEC and Xrite products seeing you now have a featured article over on Xrite's site.
Poking fun at you is due to your own misinformed posting. So I'll accuse you of being misinformed, an amateur as I've done and waiting the OP's time. You can accuse me of being a shill, OK with me; I speak about products I've worked with (sometimes with the actual companies who develop said products), own, use and can technically reply about their advantages AND disadvantages.
The major difference between us is that many companies within this industry search out for experts to provide peer review data about their products. Which is probably why you don't appear to have any such articles.
More differences between us:
Here's another major difference between us:
1. Did you graduate with a degee (with honors) in photography from one of the best schools in the country?
2. Did you get hand picked to shoot the Olympic Summer games and have access that only 50 other photographers did?
3. Did you shoot professionally for clients like Apple, Microsoft, Sony, Disney, Forbes, GTE, Smart & Final to name a few?
4. Were you on the board of the APA/LA or any such photography board?
5. Did you ever run a 'service bureau' making drum scans and output to film recorders for high end clients?
6. Did you write a book on color management?
7. Did you write dozens upon dozens of articles about color management for multiple publications?
8. Did you write dozens upon dozens of reviews of digital imaging hardware and software for multiple publications?
9. Have you published dozens of video's on the topic of color management and digital imaging?
10. Were you the tech editor of two photography publications?
11. Were you paid and sent all over the world to teach and lectrue at seminars about about color management and digital imaging?
12. Were you paid and sent all over the world to work with fortune 500 (some fortune 5 companies) or the US Government, on their color management and digital imaging workflows and issues?
13. Were you paid and sent all over the world to work with some of the largest color management companies and printing companies on their hardware and software products?
14. Were you a beta or alpha site for Adobe dating back to Photoshop 2.5, let alone many dozens of other companies making hardware and software for the imaging industry?
15. Did you get paid to speak on the subject of color management and imaging at PMA, DIMA, Photoshop World, PhotoPlus Expo, Thunder Lizards, Seybold?
16. Did you ever get paid to teach color management or imaging at workshops in Santa Fe, Vancouver, Aspen, Mendocino, Sydney?
17. Did you ever make your living as a color management consultant? Or even a professional advertising photographer? I suspect the answer is NO to all of the above!
Do you look silly arguing with someone who can answer yes to all the questions above? I'll let other's decide. I think you do!
I'm sorry that the above reality and facts, continues to ruin your life.
Don't you have some convention you should be at shilling NEC and Xrite products?
Have you ever been asked to speak on the subject of imaging or photography at any convention and do you ever wonder WHY some pro's are asked to speak when you're not? Consider it bud.
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Can you prove it's the display that is at issue?
Your reading comprehension issues arise again! Do notice if you can (http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=123300.msg1028763#msg1028763), that I asked the OP to borrow another display to see if the issue sill exists, he stated he didn't have one.
Clearly remote color management diagnostics isn't a skill you understand well; suggestions for evaluating the source of the issue was made long ago, and until those steps are followed, no, I can't prove anything other than a SpectraView is a vastly superior display system compared to the awful POS the OP is using. If you'd admit (or not) that you have a SpectraView, maybe your comment about it would hold a drop of water.
Without data, you're just another person with an opinion.
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Since time is money as you said, your list of qualifications indicate you shouldn't be wasting your valuable time talking to us rubes on an online forum.
Are you out of work?
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Since time is money as you said, your list of qualifications indicate you shouldn't be wasting your valuable time talking to us rubes on an online forum.
Rubbish, there are lots of pros (unlike you) who volunteer their time to aid others. And there are amateurs who build rabbit hoes for them to venture down.
Now what is it again you want us to believe you do for a living?
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My computer is even older than my monitor. Time to put them both out to pasture I reckon.
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Rubbish, there are lots of pros (unlike you) who volunteer their time to aid others. And there are amateurs who build rabbit hoes for them to venture down.
Now what is it again you want us to believe you do for a living?
How have you helped the OP outside of getting him to part with more of his hard earned money?
It's none of your business what I do for a living. What difference does it make? There's plenty of retired folks online that have access to and share the same info as you. I like volunteering as well.
Your equating money with knowledge and expertise isn't a business plan. It's an opinion. Besides you seem overly obsessed in telling us how your career keeps you busy as if you think just offering practical help online isn't enough.
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My computer is even older than my monitor. Time to put them both out to pasture I reckon.
Good! Buy the NEC system and a new computer. My mission is accomplished.
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My computer is even older than my monitor. Time to put them both out to pasture I reckon.
A good reference display system should last many years, the computer.... ? I find it odd that at least some photographers or those who desire a high degree of color consistency and control will often post "What's the least expensive display I can buy". Or believe 4K or 5K is more important than the qualities of their display. Rarely do you hear them ask the same question about lens. Considering how important the display is, the only means of viewing what amounts to a huge pile of numbers, like a lens, I wish such buyers would consider just how important that one piece of the digital darkroom really is. I'd easily go for a slower processor or less RAM if that money had to go toward the purchase of a display! Shaving off a second or three from editing images isn't a big deal. Viewing something while editing that's a lie is nearly always a massive waste of time. Like running down rabbit holes. ;D
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How have you helped the OP outside of getting him to part with more of his hard earned money?
It's none of your business what I do for a living. What difference does it make? There's plenty of retired folks online that have access to and share the same info as you. I like volunteering as well.
Your equating money with knowledge and expertise isn't a business plan. It's an opinion. Besides you seem overly obsessed in telling us how your career keeps you busy as if you think just offering practical help online isn't enough.
Without data and experience, all you've got is an opinion. I guess no, you don't own an NEC or you'd have admitted it....
Leave the discussions of color (and stop arguing with) those who make their living, and have done so for decades, writing, teaching and being paid very well to deal with color management and digital imaging. Assuming you're a plumber (or an accountant; who knows), two jobs I am not trained for, I promise not to argue with you about unclogging a toilet or how to fill out a tax form!
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Without data and experience, all you've got is an opinion. I guess no, you don't own an NEC or you'd have admitted it....
Leave the discussions of color (and stop arguing with) those who make their living, and have done so for decades, writing, teaching and being paid very well to deal with color management and digital imaging. Assuming you're a plumber (or an accountant; who knows), two jobs I am not trained for, I promise not to argue with you about unclogging a toilet or how to fill out a tax form!
I don't have an NEC because for 20 years as I've indicated in this thread, I never needed to spend that much money on a display but for some reason I get print matches and people are amazed at the quality of my photos.
How does buying an NEC system improve that? If it ain't broke, don't throw more money at it.
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I don't have an NEC because for 20 years as I've indicated in this thread, I never needed to spend that much money on a display but for some reason I get print matches and people are amazed at the quality of my photos.
Without experience, without data, you're just spewing more uninformed opinions. As to the quality of your photo's, where would that be?
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Leave the discussions of color (and stop arguing with) those who make their living, and have done so for decades, writing, teaching and being paid very well to deal with color management and digital imaging.
I always direct my comments to the OP and the topic. I expect you and everyone else to do the same.
I don't answer to you and I certainly am not going to give up my free speech so you can conduct business in these forums.
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You are totally free to speak whatever nonsense you desire; this is the internet. Other's are free to show the follow of your free speech. Time to move on. Like the initial question to you about if you owned a SpectraView as one example, this question probably should go unanswered: As to the quality of your photo's, where would that be?
"Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something". -Plato
Now before we get this thread locked down, and before the OP solves his issue, I'll leave you the last word which I'm quite certain will be an opinion without data.
“The reason there's so much ignorance on the subject of color management, is that those who have it are so eager to regularly share it!” - The Digital Dog
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I'll run it through dcraw in linear mode and post the results.
I'm not sure what you plan to do with these raw files in DCRaw, but here ya go. They are snapshots of my monitor screen taken with my 5D MarkII. The first two are wedges made in PS (ProphotoRGB, 16bit) and viewed from PS. The last one is a screen shot of Tim's wedge viewed directly at LULA and using the Chrome browser. I see color seepage in all three images. My monitor profile selected was made using the native WP, 2.2 gamma, and 120cd settings with the ColorMunki Photo puck and i1Studio software.
Step Wedge_Posterized_Viewed from PS (https://www.dropbox.com/s/13spbqw2g93wbuw/Wedge_Posterized_PSview.cr2?dl=0)
Step Wedge_Smooth_Viewed from PS (https://www.dropbox.com/s/4eliaznui5w2cul/Wedge_Smooth_PSview.cr2?dl=0)
Tim_Wedge_Viewed from LULA and Chrome (https://www.dropbox.com/s/u3n4ubmxan62y8q/TimWedge_ChromeView.cr2?dl=0)
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I'm not sure what you plan to do with these raw files in DCRaw, but here ya go. They are snapshots of my monitor screen taken with my 5D MarkII. The first two are wedges made in PS (ProphotoRGB, 16bit) and viewed from PS. The last one is a screen shot of Tim's wedge viewed directly at LULA and using the Chrome browser. I see color seepage in all three images. My monitor profile selected was made using the native WP, 2.2 gamma, and 120cd settings with the ColorMunki Photo puck and i1Studio software.
If you're going to get a new computer and display why even bother with this?
I downloaded the cr2 of my step wedge and noticed you used AWB. I can't see anything off in the highlight wedges. The whites are blown so I reduced Exposure to get it to look normal.
I get close to R=G=B with maybe a bit of a blue bias (R232,G232,B234) in the area in question. Your YouTube video showed more off color.
Also you have a lot of red/green/blue more´due to the pixel grid of your display. Makes it hard to tell tints from the more´
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I'm not sure what you plan to do with these raw files in DCRaw, but here ya go. They are snapshots of my monitor screen taken with my 5D MarkII. The first two are wedges made in PS (ProphotoRGB, 16bit) and viewed from PS. The last one is a screen shot of Tim's wedge viewed directly at LULA and using the Chrome browser. I see color seepage in all three images. My monitor profile selected was made using the native WP, 2.2 gamma, and 120cd settings with the ColorMunki Photo puck and i1Studio software.
Step Wedge_Posterized_Viewed from PS (https://www.dropbox.com/s/13spbqw2g93wbuw/Wedge_Posterized_PSview.cr2?dl=0)
Step Wedge_Smooth_Viewed from PS (https://www.dropbox.com/s/4eliaznui5w2cul/Wedge_Smooth_PSview.cr2?dl=0)
Tim_Wedge_Viewed from LULA and Chrome (https://www.dropbox.com/s/u3n4ubmxan62y8q/TimWedge_ChromeView.cr2?dl=0)
Due to the system age as I said earlier I do believe that you will be a lot happier with a new system including PC monitor and update to Win 10, assuming you have the budget for it.
If the issues you are experiencing can be cured is anyone’s guess but one thing that sticks out in your latest screenshots is what appears to be vertical banding over the whole screen, slight but there in the light areas as well as darker.
Somehow I do not think this is camera generated issue but a flaw somewhere in the graphics system.
Not able to ascertain what resolution you are running at but what happens to these images if you set the screen resolution lower than current setting? I suspect that you will be running at max/default but if not try that as well
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I'm not sure what you plan to do with these raw files in DCRaw, but here ya go. They are snapshots of my monitor screen taken with my 5D MarkII. The first two are wedges made in PS (ProphotoRGB, 16bit) and viewed from PS. The last one is a screen shot of Tim's wedge viewed directly at LULA and using the Chrome browser. I see color seepage in all three images. My monitor profile selected was made using the native WP, 2.2 gamma, and 120cd settings with the ColorMunki Photo puck and i1Studio software.
Step Wedge_Posterized_Viewed from PS (https://www.dropbox.com/s/13spbqw2g93wbuw/Wedge_Posterized_PSview.cr2?dl=0)
Step Wedge_Smooth_Viewed from PS (https://www.dropbox.com/s/4eliaznui5w2cul/Wedge_Smooth_PSview.cr2?dl=0)
Tim_Wedge_Viewed from LULA and Chrome (https://www.dropbox.com/s/u3n4ubmxan62y8q/TimWedge_ChromeView.cr2?dl=0)
As Tim noted, the image has a lot of moiré. The impact is uncertain due to possible non-linear CFA conversion algorithms. This is why I asked for the strip to be photographed at 20% to 40% of the camera frame as well as setting the small, F16, aperture.
There are other issues. When displaying it in Photoshop, use 100% zoom. Fractional zoom settings have less than perfect interpolation in Photoshop.
So, I'll be more specific in what is necessary to prevent aliasing (moiré). Resample the image of the continuous and step wedges in Photoshop so that the long side is 1200 pixels. Zoom the images to 100%. The strips should take up about half the monitor screen width. Then take a picture so that the monitor screen width about half fills the camera's image. This should produce a wedge that is about 25% of the full image horizontal size.
I only need the Photoshop images.
But given all that it really isn't bad. I converted the image to a linear RGB space and ran a heavy Gaussian blur (8 pix). There is not an unreasonable amount of color shift. It's within range of a typical monitor and video card LUT driven display neutral tone. Variation is within 1.5 dE and typically much less. Frankly, I'm surprised it's that close with the moiré. It's much less than the apparent color shifts in the video. Could be some sort of aliasing against the video recorder which may exaggerate shifts.
Sorry but I can't be more precise w/o a moiré free image.
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Patient says: Doc, it hurts when I do this.
Doctor says: Then stop doing that.
I didn't have a problem until I started staring at step wedges, so I will stop staring at step wedges.
Thank you for all the sound advice. I'm getting on with my life.