Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: paul_jones on September 25, 2006, 09:24:24 pm
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http://www.letsgodigital.org/en/10534/hasselblad_h3d/ (http://www.letsgodigital.org/en/10534/hasselblad_h3d/)
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Can someone cut thru the marketing-speak and tell me if this is somehting more than a repackaged, fully integrated version of the H2 with the Imacon back? And why are they making such a big deal of the chip size (e.g., the new 28mm lens is described as "optimized for the 36x48 mm sensor area of the Hasselblad H3D." Is 36x48 a new size?
http://www.letsgodigital.org/en/10534/hasselblad_h3d/ (http://www.letsgodigital.org/en/10534/hasselblad_h3d/)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=77713\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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i am not sure what is supposed to be new about this camera other then the name...i thought the H2D was fully integrated...and i love how they play up that 36x48mm novelty...along with Hasselblad Natural Color Solution....does that mean they finally have the yellow cast under control...or is yellow the new natural...
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Looks like the new Rollei/Sinar combo and the Hasselblad H3 will be going to battle!
It should be interesting to see what comes out of that.
I do like the idea of special designed lenses for the Rollei/Sinar combo.
(Flektogon 2,8/35mm, Flektogon 2,8/50mm, Biometar 4/150mm, Biometar 2,8/150mm, and a Vario-Biometar 60-140mm)
Cheers,
Willem.
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I had been checking the hassy website for the last few days. the release is still not on their website.
Can someone cut thru the marketing-speak and tell me if this is somehting more than a repackaged, fully integrated version of the H2 with the Imacon back? And why are they making such a big deal of the chip size (e.g., the new 28mm lens is described as "optimized for the 36x48 mm sensor area of the Hasselblad H3D." Is 36x48 a new size?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=77719\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I had been checking the hassy website for the last few days. the release is still not on their website.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=77730\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
it aways takes a while for the manufactures to add it to their websites.
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Still trying to work out what is different about this camera !!
One thing I do note is..
THE NEW 28 LENS
"Please note, however, that this special lens is designed specifically for the H3D camera model and is for digital use only"
Or maybe it will go on the H1/2 but have vignetting in the 'film' area
Maybe it is so rubbish it needs all the blad software to sort it out !
THE NEW VIEWFINDER
Is 'fullframe' ie not a 645 view with a cropping mark
The view 'larger and brighter'
Surely the meant larger OR brighter or maybe it grabs some extra photons from somewhere
I cant see any more buttons that would indicate multipoint AF
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So is the summary..
The H3 is an H2 with..
A few electronic upgrades
A viewfinder that shows full frame as 36/48 (purchaseable for your H1/2)
A new 'DX style' approach to lenses that wont cover full 645
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Still trying to work out what is different about this camera !!
the price tag
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On the hasselblad pages it says the camera is avaiable as both 22 and 39mp models..good.
it says the camera has film compatability..so the back comes off and can be replaced with film back..good but then you probably need the second prism viewfinder aswell!
it says view camera compatability...so the digital back comes off and can be used on view cameras..good
prism and waist level finder..good
28mm lens is specifically for use with digital back not film back..so it says..not so good but it is very compact lens
sounds like a souped up version of H2 but must be more if for instance the 28mm lens can only be used on this camera, not previous versions.
will the 22mp version be upgradeable to the 39mp version?
so I know it looks the same but it does have some good features.
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supposedly the H3D back can go on a view camera.
I cannot imagine though that Hasselblad would come out 6months ago with the H2D and then re-
engineer a new back for the H3D, both looking identical and one being able to fit on a view
camera and the other not.
All will be revealed in 3 days.
In the mean time I have stopped all of my postproduction, because now I can't work any longer
on my barrel distortion with PS, knowing that the new flexcolor distortion software will come out in 3
days which will wip my files into shape.
Marc
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prism and waist level finder..good
I'm not so convinced about the waist level finder. It's good in that it gives wedding photographers an alternative to grass stains on their knees, but it's still a compromise.
With a 39MP back you could crop down to a 22MP vertical shot, but you're then enlarging from a 27mm x 36mm sensor, so you'll end up with a file similar to the one you'll probably get from the next generation, Canon 1Ds MkIII. Plus there'll be no cropping lines to guide you for this vertical shot, and it screws up the focal length coverage so you'll probably want to change lenses when you decide to go from horizontal to vertical format.
A revolving back, or the swivelling viewfinder that Bronica used, seem more elegant solutions to the problem of vertical framing.
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Gary,
I think the waist level finder is really only a quite specific option when shooting, say slow landscape oriented shots..i.e. city scapes, landscapes, etc.
And yes a rotating back would be a pefect option..the user can then choose to rotate or simply turn whole camera if speed is of the essence.
I also feel they will be price the 22mp model quite aggresively to take some of the top end market share of dslr users from canon..why else would they bother with the 22mp model.
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so you'll probably want to change lenses when you decide to go from horizontal to vertical format.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=77766\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Ignore that, I'll now write out a hundred times "think first then reply".
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I also feel they will be price the 22mp model quite aggresively to take some of the top end market share of dslr users from canon..why else would they bother with the 22mp model.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=77769\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That's interesting, I use a 22MP back on a Hasselblad V system, and I'll continue to use it even when I upgrade to the next super-duper Canon. But that's because I value specific elements of the V system range, such as the non-distorting 38mm Biogon lens and the Flexbody, and therefore I'm willing to put up with the cat's cradle of cabling and lack of digital TTL flash metering that goes with the decision.
But I certainly take your point, a 22MP Hasselblad DSLR versus a 22MP Canon DSLR, when the Canon has all the advantages of image stabilisation, more lens options, better auto focus functionality, bigger ISO range etc. I'd start asking why bother?
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Gary,
I think the waist level finder is really only a quite specific option when shooting, say slow landscape oriented shots..i.e. city scapes, landscapes, etc.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=77769\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I miss the waist level finder I used to carry in the case with the RZ. It is also good with fast moving landscapes shot from a low angle.
More seriously, it was great for interiors when backed up against a wall. It gives you that extra head-width back.
I find it had to believe still that Mamiya did not just bring out a mini RZ designed for 36 x 48 chips with correspondiing lenses. They alreay had the market with the RZ, but they failed to convert it with digital. That rotating back was so good. I use H1 now, but everything is still set to manual just like it was with the RZ, and I still hate tipping it on its side to shoot a vertical, and if I'm backed into a corner to get the shot, changing to vertical means setting up my position again.
I think landscapes aren't the only thing shot from ground level. Its good to have (or have the option of) a versatile kit, Nikon used to offer a right anlge finder years ago (still got one somewhere).
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Hasselblad just introduced waist level finder for H3D. I wonder if that would work for H1, I don't see why not.
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Could it be that the "Full frame sensor" is ONE complete chip as opposed to the current ones that are 2 chips joined together??? That would be good for avoiding some of the issues these new 30+MP chips are having... but I imageine it would cost more to produce.
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Hasselblad just introduced waist level finder for H3D. I wonder if that would work for H1, I don't see why not.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=77800\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
yes..look on the hasselblad website..it gives all the details.
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Here:
http://hasselblad.com/products/h-system/h3d.aspx (http://hasselblad.com/products/h-system/h3d.aspx)
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Could it be that the "Full frame sensor" is ONE complete chip as opposed to the current ones that are 2 chips joined together??? That would be good for avoiding some of the issues these new 30+MP chips are having... but I imageine it would cost more to produce.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=77803\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Everything seems to indicate today that the H3D uses the same Kodak chip used in the H2D39 and Phase one P45.
Regards.
Bernard
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Wow, the specs/description of the H3D is possibly the biggest marketing hype about NOTHING I've ever read.
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Wow, the specs/description of the H3D is possibly the biggest marketing hype about NOTHING I've ever read
True enough,but at least it's not vaporware that wouldn't be deliverable for 2 years.
All they have to do to bring the H3D to market is to add a little H3D sticker to all the
H2d's that are already produced :>))
Mark
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Everything seems to indicate today that the H3D uses the same Kodak chip used in the H2D39 and Phase one P45.
Regards.
Bernard
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I agree. I wonder if this back is available for Hasselblad V system. Does anyone know?
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If you want a Hassy 39MP back for the V system, you need the CF-39 with I-Adapter to fit the Hassy V cameras. It's the same thing as the H2D-39 and the H3D 39MP version. They're all the same.
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If you want a Hassy 39MP back for the V system, you need the CF-39 with I-Adapter to fit the Hassy V cameras. It's the same thing as the H2D-39 and the H3D 39MP version. They're all the same.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=77868\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thank you. I appreciate your help.
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I reccon the camera has a smaller mirror and can accomodate the new 28mm lens protruding deeper into the camera body. This would account for the incompatability with all other cameras ever made.
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If you want a Hassy 39MP back for the V system, you need the CF-39 with I-Adapter to fit the Hassy V cameras. It's the same thing as the H2D-39 and the H3D 39MP version. They're all the same.
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that is the most amazing thing about the announcement: this is really a 2 year old back...
the 28mm seems to have a smaller coverage, so i am sure it cannot be used with a film back (without the edges going dark of course)
mamiya is finally coming out with their 28mm and i am sure it is full frame...
the other item is the WLF which is of course only useable horizontal...
it is incredible that hasselblad now has come out with the 3rd system within 5? years (V, H1/2 and now H3) which parts cannot be interchanged...what a joke...hard to even talk about a system...
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I reccon the camera has a smaller mirror and can accomodate the new 28mm lens protruding deeper into the camera body. This would account for the incompatability with all other cameras ever made.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=77881\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Maybe it does fit the other cameras - just vignettes on 645 film and is therefore 'out of spec'
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the hasselbad intro of the camera at photokina was due today..any news on the HD3 and new wide 28mmlens / shift options etc?
Marc
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shift options
Shift to ALPA or CAMBO or linhof
Incidentally ALPA now list thier XY as a product (rather than prototype) since kina and thier new pricelist includes a shiftable 28
Shift your position to sitting down before reading the alpa price list
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shift options..yes I read an interview with hasselblad recently, can not find it now, where they spoke of new shift options for their cameras..perhaps I dreamt it!
alpa..being half swiss i really should but being only mortal I can not afford it.
The newer horseman swd2 looks interesting..more flexible than first version..
anyway..once the dust settles I shall post a new topic regarding shift options and super wide lenses for mf film and digital backs.
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shift options..yes I read an interview with hasselblad recently, can not find it now, where they spoke of new shift options for their cameras..perhaps I dreamt it!
alpa..being half swiss i really should but being only mortal I can not afford it.
The newer horseman swd2 looks interesting..more flexible than first version..
anyway..once the dust settles I shall post a new topic regarding shift options and super wide lenses for mf film and digital backs.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78003\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I had an hour's interview today with the CEO of Hasselblad today - I shall report tomorrow on my blog what my impressions were. I also ran into our patron saint, Michael Reichmann, at the Hasselblad press conference, so I expect he will be doing some reporting too.
One teaser - expect a shift lnes from Hasselblad around PMA time.
Edmund
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Has anybody seen this at photokina?
A Hasselblad H as view-camera!?
http://www.pk-digital.it/Digitale/Polifemo_en.html (http://www.pk-digital.it/Digitale/Polifemo_en.html)
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I had an hour's interview today with the CEO of Hasselblad today - I shall report tomorrow on my blog what my impressions were. I also ran into our patron saint, Michael Reichmann, at the Hasselblad press conference, so I expect he will be doing some reporting too.
One teaser - expect a shift lnes from Hasselblad around PMA time.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78027\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
A link to your blog please...
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from this weeks bjp
"The H3D is available now although prices had not been announced as BJP went to press. Hasselblad adds that there is an H3D upgrade program available for H1D and H2D users."
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I thought Phase used Dalsa chips. But I agree with Michael in today's blog. The closed architecture in the H3 is a retrograde step and will probably be met with professional resistance as the pros tend to chose best of class in their system components. The open approach that Sinar has adopted with its modified Rollei body is the antithesis and allows more flexibility.
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Underlying this thread, is a lack of understanding from camera makers of the genius/engineering of Victor Hassleblad: the modular camera. The 2000 series extended his vision.
Here is my summary:
1. Square format means no format cropping in-camera. Cropping is for the darkroom/Photoshop.
2. Use any camera body with any lens or 'back'
3. Use any lens with any camera.
4. Choose a back to suit. 6x6, 6x4.5, 70mm (Phase, Leaf) etc.
(5.)High shutter speed flash sync.
(6.)Optimal quality (maybe top of the list)
The H3D is not a camera from the V.H., 500 series mould. It is a lens+body+back solution.
The whole point is that a square format did not require the camera to be rotated by hand, it was an human-centric, ergonomic solution. A 500 series camera (square format) was small; it fitted the hand; it did not require rotation. For Fashion, Weddings, and Art-reportage the 500/2000 series was hard to beat.
A squillion years ago Canon/Nikon etc realised that a rectangular format meant we; the photographers; would flip by hand between horizontal and vertical. Their Pro cameras work OK (two sets of shutter releases etc) this way. But it is not the same.
Mamiya realised that they could match Hasselblad image quality by using a bigger imaging area (sound familiar?) with a a static body,rotating back and a larger 6x7 format.
Do I sound annoyed? Of couse I am. 60 years ago Victor Hasselbald worked out that he could have the best of both worlds.(square format/superior optics) A few years later Mamiya (and then Fuji 680) matched expensive/prescision engineering with a bigger format and a rotating back. Because photographers at this level need high quality, reliabiltiy, and simple (risk-free) operation nothing has changed.
High quality, square format means crop later after using a compact, hand holdable camera. Otherwise, if the back rotates, get high quality on-site; or if the whole camera has to rotate, slow down a little/think differently. (buy 35mm)
I suspect the Rollie/Sinar/Leaf/Phase people may not have got this equation worked out: square format=compact camera; high quality rectangluar=must have rotating back.
Technology changes, human beings do not.
I know the silicon wafer/sensor dimension/yield equation, but what we are seeing ignores the job we do: making images by hand ...to sell...at a price... to people...
Peter
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From Hasselblad email:
U.S. MSRP Pricing is as follows:
H3D-22: $26,995
H3D-39: $31,995
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Could it be that the "Full frame sensor" is ONE complete chip as opposed to the current ones that are 2 chips joined together??? That would be good for avoiding some of the issues these new 30+MP chips are having... but I imageine it would cost more to produce.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=77803\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Andrew,
what leads you to believe that the current CFH39 sensor is two sensors joined
together? i don't have the Kodak data sheet handy (it is here somewhere) but i am looking at my sensor and it is a single cut wafer bonded to the substrate. i am not sure how one would
manufacture a multipart CCD array without a seam in the array?
thanks,
glenn
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Could it be that the "Full frame sensor" is ONE complete chip as opposed to the current ones that are 2 chips joined together???
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=77803\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No sensors are made by joining together two smaller chips: the electrical contacts along all edges of a chip prevent that. And there is no new Kodak sensor; that is not what has changed with the H3D.
Perhaps there is confusion with the "multiple exposure" process needed to make very large chips. Larger sensors are made by multiple exposures onto the silicon wafer, which is roughly like etching several copies of the layout of a smaller sensor design edge to edge.
Also, Kodak's sensor has an active area slightly larger than double 24x36mm, at 36.7x49mm, and Kodak has never made a Full Frame type CCD in 24x36mm dimensions AFAIK; Kodak does make interline CCD's of that format.
P. S. According to a recent Canon white paper, immodestly entitled "Canon's Full-Frame CMOS Sensors: the Finest Tools for Digital Photography", the largest sensor that Canon can make without this multiple step process is about "1D" sized; Canon mentions maximum dimensions of 33x26mm for the region that can be etched in each exposure, just short in one direction of the 36mm needed for 35mm format.